Boycott ENTERPRISE .. it's just that bad.

POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Monday, January 24, 2005 20:10
VIEWED: 38306
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GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:21 PM

Since ENTERPRISE began it has been hailed as being the very worst Star Trek ever done... and after Voyager that's quite an accomplishment. Now, after three seasons of fascistic, racist, and horrifically mysoginistic story lines the TV viewing public, who avoided this show like dog shit on the sidewalk, will get more.

Why?

Well, we don't know why. But we can guess. And the best guess always goes with the money.

Paramount, rather like NBC losing Friends, is horrified to learn that their long standing Star Trek franchise is dead. Dead dead. No one cares for the material except a very, very, smelly and small number of Fan boy freaks. You know... the kind who have no life but fetishizing dolls and other 'collectibles'. Forget those who appreciated the intricate and smart stories from the original series 40 years ago... those people are looong gone. Paramount has opted to do what all giant Corps. do when faced with an artistic crisis... they buy more. They market more. They keep it going even if it looses millions simply because they still have no idea what to do. So they keep doing what they are doing.

Notice how popular shows (can we think of one? Hmm... something by that Joss guy) get the shaft while "franchises" get perpetuated as if they deserve too. The lesson being that a brand name is far, far, more important than a good show.

Worse, Enterprise is also the producers sycophantic pro George "Dubya" Bush cream dream. Notice how the protagonist, Capt. Archer, is the son of a "great man" who was held back by the (liberal) Vulcans. As the show progresses, Archer becomes increasingly more angry and with a terrorist attack on Earth by an alien race he agrees to "do what it takes" to ... well, the actual goals aren't defined. Stop the bad guys? Sound familiar? Propoganda is not what I watch Star Trek for let alone a soft sell for the War in Iraq. It's become painfully obvious that Enterprise means to present the 'War against Islam" as a great adventure. Sick.

Then, just to undermine the characters rather like on Voyager... soldiers are brought into the show to "solve the problem". Enterprise just failed first year English... sad.

Looking at the original Trek compared to ENTERPRISE one has to wonder why in 1965 they had a multi-racial show that portrayed a ship full of different people while today they can't even give the one black guy on the show lines. The producers lack of giving a shit or even basic morals becomes more apparent. There is an asian girl who is portrayed rather like all women on Enterprise; a weak willed child who's job is so unimportant the stories forgot about her main skill early on. And just when you thought you'd seen the main characters turned into put upon tokens Enterprise will come along with an ep about fundamentalist suicide bombers that deserves an award for being the most racist and ignorant story put on TV in some years.

If this weren't bad enough I can't leave without bringing up the horrifically mysoginistic undertone of Enterprise that is personified by the character T'pol. Even from the first show we see a woman who is attacked by Archer and yet she is drawn to him like a battered wife (and is a psychology T'Pol demonstrates consistantly. I think it's the producers true feelings about women. Scary). Make sense? Only to certain sexually twisted fanboy writers. Anyho', this has continued and is sure to keep on going. Lately, T'Pol has inexplicably decided that wearing a silly cat suit isn't enough to degrade herself so she has become a sort of ships whore by fucking the engineer... again for no apparent reason.

And now for what might be the real reason ENTERPRISE should go away... it's a joke on the Star Trek fans! The producers of this show have, I can only divine, seemingly tried to turn Enterprise into a kind of childish 'Capt. Proton' (if you get me) that takes gleeful joy in ignoring, destroying, or just plain making fun of everything Trek that came before. Noticeably all the good stuff Paramount doesn't want to pay royalties on.

EARLYWASLATE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:54 PM

There is a lot to what you say about the first two and a haf seasons. I pretty much completely ignored the first season because of how bad I heard it was. I watched a few of the second, and saw just enough OK episodes to give me hope that it would get better. There were charecter episodes for a change, and not just technology of the week.

So I decided to give the show a fair shake in the third season. It started out pretty much as bad as the second. However, the last 8 or so episodes have really improved. I was shocked by the jump in quality. Certianly not FF caliber by any stretch, but it was near average SciFi.

If you havn't seen the last few episodes, they are worth a look before you write it off.

EARLYWASLATE

SOULOFSERENITY

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:02 PM

Now see, here's where I have to respectably disagree with you. I'll give you that for about two and a half seasons, Enterprise was lacking. It was simply bad.

Now I am not a "Trekkie" by any means. I own nothing Trek related, nor do I attend conventions about anything. I am not a geek (not that I'm insinuating that that's a bad thing, because it's not). I'm pretty damn average.

I my view, the second half of this season has been a rush. The show has finally gotten around to having real caracters with real emotions instead of autonomous robots. It's been an exilarating ride, that's just been getting better. I, for one, am anxious to find out how this all wraps up, and I will welcome back Enterprise next year if it continues to expand on the current formula.

I realize that you're pissed that great shows get cancelled while mediocre to crap shows stay on the air, and in that aspect I totally agree with you. There are some seriously bad shows (Idol, anyone?) that are ruining TV, and for a long time Enterprise was one of them, but I think it is finally pulling itself up out of the muck and trying to become a real show.

One final thing: with absolute respect to you, Ghoulman, I hate it when someone tries to discect a show and throws political crap into it. Bush sent us to war because of something that was assumed. Enterprise went to war because of something that was an undeniable fact. Screw the political parallels. Why can't people just enjoy a show for the entertainment.

Some things just need to be taken at face value.

In the way of Zoid:

Respectably,

SoulOfSerenity

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:44 PM

Terrific posts. I've seen a few shows this season and as you can see I was horrified by the "islamic suicide bombers' episode that demonstrated that old moral... crazy people should be killed? Uuuummmm no. So I watched a few more. The show is just as slick and expensive looking as ever and is still having trouble remembering what happened from Act I to Act II. Really, I've seen comic books with more insight... even Marvel comic books!

BTW; just entertainment is, if you want to know, propoganda by default. That is, since the story is hollow anyway then there is nothing left but it's intrinsic message. Whatever that message is.

Save the world from the tyrany of 'entertainment'!

Anyho', if the current seasons mission into Iraq (Xindi space) for whatever reason (the reasons given were, frankly, bullshit writing... as usual) and then it all changed the minute the Iraqi Council was introduced. Now, I'm hardly the only one to have noticed the Bush/ENT connection. Remember the times you live in Bucky, the propoganda is thick.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:03 PM

... oh and I don't want to sound like I'm dumping on those who say 'it's improving' but FRELL! ... do you normally wait through years of crap to get to the good? Has any good come yet? Will it?

Honestly. What sort of bizarre logic is that?

And for the love of mudville ... realize that this sort of TV (on various levels) keeps shows like Firefly off the air. After all... if the viewing SciFi fans will accept such rubbish than why the frell would a network pay for a high class production like Firefly? Or Angel? Or... are ya seeing a pattern here boys and girls?

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:16 PM

I'd boycott it except that I never watch it. My hubby, who is an ardent couch potato (when he's not building clusters or playing semi-pro racquetball) tried watching but gave up. For a guy whose hand has melded into the remote, that's saying something!

RKLENSETH

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:16 PM

Ghoulman, just a quick question, do you have a problem with everything in the world (well besides Firefly)? And if the answer is no then I would to hear what you don't have a problem with for once rather then what you do have a problem with.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

LASHER99

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:34 PM

Boycott? Um, you go on right ahead and tell all your friends (and your adoring public) that don't already watch it to boycott it as well. Those of us who are watching it will probably continue to do so. We have our own reasons to continue to watch it or to stop. Guess what, convincing those that don't already watch it will have how much negative impact on the Nielsens? Lemme think.... Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero. Cya.

FREAKYSINS

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:39 PM

*sigh*

The first two seasons were, at best, "meh". Face it, the writing was, generally speaking, sub par. Of course, I blame the producers.

This season has been considerably more interesting, to say the least, and there have been several episodes I've thoroughly enjoyed. It's what the first season should have been, to be quite honest.

As far as your references to parallels with the current stupidity in Iraq, I agree to a point, in that, as has ever been the case, art imitates life. We have an unprovoked attack against civilian targets, to which there absolutely must be a response. It is here that I believe your righteousness and indignation falls short. Archer is trying to convince and appeal... to reach a diplomatic solution, though he has had to use force to get there. Obviously, that's not what's happened or is currently happening in the Middle East. It's my thought that the current administration has more in common with the Xindi than Starfleet. The Xindi are responding proactively to a threat which they are told will occur in the far future, not unlike the US-led invasion of Iraq.

But, I suppose we all see what we want to see.

If boycotting a television program makes you feel better, knock yourself out. Me, I'll be casting a vote come November.

Peace

-FS

If I ever decide to kill you, you'll be standing, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

GHOLA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:48 PM

Enterprise is most of the time an incredibly dull show it doesn't really do anything. Now I'll admit that this past season has picked it up a bit but not alot. However if you want to find propaganda Ghoulman perhaps you should check your own post. You're just trying to disect the show until you can find some political meaning for you to complain about I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could shove the same amount of political crap into Firefly.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rklenseth:
Ghoulman, just a quick question, do you have a problem with everything in the world (well besides Firefly)? And if the answer is no then I would to hear what you don't have a problem with for once rather then what you do have a problem with.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net

Oh come now. It's not like I have been smackin' post after post of "things I hate". There have only been two things I've hated and posted here. Bad TV and bad politics. It's not like I have a list. Gotta ask, why do you think I'm such a muck raker?

Besides, it's not like I'm the only person around saying these things. And if you people want Sci-Fi turned into crappy 'entertainment' then you got your wish. I just thank the TV Goddesses for Joss Whedon every frellin' day.

Oh, and we are neck and neck with the SAVE Enteprise thread! *chuckle* Wow, it's a race! But hey, the show was renewed soooo... this thread has already lost. But that doesn't mean we on the Net can't express our opinions. After all, that's what this stuff is for... and Hollywoodland is reading it. Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Hmm, things I DO like... Sci-Fi only...
Oh... I thought Farscape turned into a great show. How's that? Oh, and the new Battlestar Galactica is terrific. Love that Moore guy. Since he left Star Trek his talents can finally be freed.

GHOLA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
After all, that's what this stuff is for... and Hollywoodland is reading it. Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Even if anyone at Hollywood is reading this I don't think they give a damn what you, me, or anyone else here thinks. Just so long as they keep getting their money they're happy.

RKLENSETH

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:03 PM

Well, it seems like when ever I read a post by you it is something bad. Maybe I'm just not reading your good posts.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:14 PM

Well RKLENSETH, I think standing up to Right Wing liars is a positive thing myself. Have ya NOT seen CNN? Where have you been the last few years? You know there is this 'War on Terror' baloney around right? Oh, I'm just teasing ya.

And Ghola, I'm not the only one who has made the connection to Bush and Enterprise. Not to mention it's more than a little obvious. There have been articles about this, there has been talk about it. So don't come around saying I made it up or it's just my opinion - this is the reality. If you don't believe me then you haven't been paying attention to what's going on, what's being said, and most importantly, what's been written about Enterprise.

Do your own research.

CAPTAINCDC

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
I just thank the TV Goddesses for Joss Whedon every frellin' day.

Finally, something you and I agree on!

Quote:
Trust me, the Trek producers don't like me one bit.

Ah, you also found something the Trek producers and I agree on!

I have been watching Enterprise since the first ep, and am thoroughly pleased that it is coming back. For one reason, because it pisses you off so much. Another more important reason, because I enjoy the show. And what do you know, I don't exhibit any of the pathetic sexual deviant geek fan boy qualities that you implied every Enterprise fan must. Don't read so much into every show. Just because you want it to be there, 'cause you hate the show, does not mean it is or that it was the writer/producers intent. If you like the show, watch it. If you don't, then don't watch, because I for one am tired of hearing your self important blatherings. And for someone taking shots at those that you deem practice "bad politics", try not to stereotype people as much.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GHOLA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

And Ghola, I'm not the only one who has made the connection to Bush and Enterprise. Not to mention it's more than a little obvious. There have been articles about this, there has been talk about it. So don't come around saying I made it up or it's just my opinion - this is the reality. If you don't believe me then you haven't been paying attention to what's going on, what's being said, and most importantly, what's been written about Enterprise.

Do your own research.

It is just your opinion like this whole T'pol going back to Archer like a battered wife when was this? Or the vulcans being liberals and Archer's father being Bush Sr. please apart from the fact that was introduced in the pilot (the one written before 9/11) the Vulcans were merely used as a plot device to create conflict. I can see where you could see the connection between Iraq/the Xindi thing from the first few episodes of the arc but more recently Archer has been allied with some Xindi and there are aliens that have been tricking the Xindi into attacking earth. I do agree that they should give more for the two minority characters to do but yelling racism is a pretty big accusation.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:55 PM

^^^ Hey CAPTAINCDC, like the show all ya want. Not like it's a crime to lack sagacity. Reading your post I suspect you think of yourself as a 'geek' and therefore don't like to be called 'smelly' or something. That's fine, and hey, you're standing up for yourself! Good on you. But I don't like "Fanboy" culture and, as someone with some experience in that melee, I can tell ya that Fanboys are nothing but psychological misfits who have obsessed over to much fantasy and Sci-Fi. Worse, tptb will take advantage of this and sell you all the fetish objects your addiction can pay for. Is that healthy for the Fanboy? No, of course not. Worse, the Fanboy culture that has been groomed by Hollywoodland to build franchises these days lately have revealed themselves as the brainwash it is. Even more ... er, worse - this model of Fanboy pandering only encourages crap shows like SG-1 or Babylon 5 (which aren't horrific like ENT but are just as boring... if written competently, and that's not saying much).

I want shows like Firefly!!! See where I'm going with this? I'm not just bitching in the air here, I see direct currents (currents you might change!) in Hollywoodland that caused the cancellation of Firefly, Angel, and Buffy.

About politics... I don't know myself but it's pretty obvious to me Firefly was 'messed with' by FOX simply because they saw it as liberal propoganda. That, btw will be my next thread.

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghola:
It is just your opinion like this whole T'pol going back to Archer like a battered wife when was this? Or the vulcans being liberals and Archer's father being Bush Sr. please apart from the fact that was introduced in the pilot (the one written before 9/11) the Vulcans were merely used as a plot device to create conflict. I can see where you could see the connection between Iraq/the Xindi thing from the first few episodes of the arc but more recently Archer has been allied with some Xindi and there are aliens that have been tricking the Xindi into attacking earth. I do agree that they should give more for the two minority characters to do but yelling racism is a pretty big accusation.

English! Please!

But I think I get you. I see where you see some of what I mean (glad to see Joss' metaphor ladden stories have had an affect) but not all of it. Especially T'Pol. I do see one problem you have, you are following the plots. That is misleading as the plot will pull you around by the nose (narratively speaking). Watch what the charactes do. What choices they make. A story can't just ignore reality, even in these days of unreality.

ANNIK

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Worse, Enterprise is also the producers sycophantic pro George "Dubya" Bush cream dream. Notice how the protagonist, Capt. Archer, is the son of a "great man" who was held back by the (liberal) Vulcans. As the show progresses, Archer becomes increasingly more angry and with a terrorist attack on Earth by an alien race he agrees to "do what it takes" to ... well, the actual goals aren't defined. Stop the bad guys? Sound familiar? Propoganda is not what I watch Star Trek for let alone a soft sell for the War in Iraq. It's become painfully obvious that Enterprise means to present the 'War against Islam" as a great adventure. Sick.
(snipped)
Boycott Enterprise.

Thanx for your time.
---
Ghoulman

I think you've done a great analysis here, Ghoulman, although as a non-American I'd go a step further and say that the show seems to be doing a soft-sell on war in general, not just the one in Iraq. (So, are you guys planning to invade anyone else this year?

).

I'll still watch the show, at this point mostly to see what else they'll screw up in their own continuity/character development.

Your point about entertainment being used as propaganda is well-known by many: remember when all the bad guys in movies always looked German? (remember The Empire in Star Wars?)

Then we hit ST:TNG and all the Romulans look suspiciously middle-eastern. It goes on from there.

I well remember a class at uni where we were looking at the movie, "Top Gun," and one guy kept insisting it was just a great movie and wasn't trying to say anything. As one of our American classmates said to him, "Do you think that the navy just loans out aircraft carriers for the heck of it?"

There was a point here somewhere, but I think it got lost somewhere behind a bad script.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

CAPTAINCDC

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:36 PM

Like I said in my first reply to you Ghoulman, I am not a sad geek fanboy (not that there is anything wrong with that, and I'm sure that you will misinterpret my denial as me being in a state of denial, but whatever). I am totally on board for changing the current climate of television. I hunger for the next firefly, buffy, angel, or wonderfalls to make it on the air and be a success. I just don't think Enterprise is public enemy #1 in fighting that front. And I don't believe for one moment that the Fox network "messed with firefly simply because they saw it as liberal propaganda". They axed it because they had no vision and did not realize what a jewel joss and tim had given them. I know that there is a lot of propaganda out there primarily by the government (regardless of who is in the white house) but you come off sounding paranoid seeing propaganda where it might not exist. Your response to ghola advising to ignore plot in favor of reading between the lines is a very telling insight into your views of these shows that we are debating. I agree that we need to read between the lines to see the big picture, but how can you fully enjoy a tv show if you ignore plot?

And could you expand upon what you meant by this:

Quote:
btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

3OF19

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:37 PM

If you absolutely want to analyze the Xindi arc, do it right:
Sphere Builders: Bush Administration
Xindi:
Reptilians: US
Insectoids: UK
Aquatics: UN
Primates: Germany
Arboreals: France

Starfleet: US between 9/11 and Iraq war.

I'd agree with you that "Chosen Realm" (the suicide bomber episode) was very heavy handed. But overall the third season has been very good.

It has been really desperate times for the Enterprise crew, trying to prevent the certain destruction of Earth. They have done things they aren't proud off to say the least, torturing a prisoner in Anomaly, stealing engine parts in Damage...
But don't forget, this is a mission they have to see through. Real danger, and not shaky intel and a possible hidden agenda.

If I could trade Enterprise season 4 for Firefly on tv again, I'd do it in a hearbeat. It's not that good, but has shown enough improvement through this season that I'll tune in again next season, and if that one continues to improve (and the ratings finally catch on) the seasons that might follow.

If you had seen the last episode, you'd also have checked that Hoshi rant at the door.

Mayweather has been underused this season for a reason: Anthony Montgomery's father has been very ill this past year and Anthony specifically asked for more time off so he could take care of him.

SOUTHERNSLAYER

Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:18 PM

As I've stated before In a similar thread, Im not the biggest Enterprise fan but I must disagree with your posts and the very idea behind your posts. If you dislike Enterprise as much as you say, then why watch the show in the first place? Wouldn't it be simpler for you to choose not to watch Enterprise and allow others the choice of whether or not to watch, free from the damaging effects of your forced opinions? I also feel it is unfair for you to further damage a shows reputation by suggesting it mirrors events of a current and heated political nature. Such disscusions only ever succeed in creating unwanted arguments of which are unessesary and divide us. Finally I must display my disgust at your willingness to use a tool intended to allow us Browncoats to converse, as a tool in which to tarnish another shows name in the hope of securing its cancellation. That I believe is low, especially considering the trials us Browncoats have had to endure this past while back.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

GHOLA

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that.

You're not shitting on peoples opinions??? I must have read the following statement wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

^^^ Hey CAPTAINCDC, like the show all ya want. Not like it's a crime to lack sagacity.

You're calling him stupid and you're not shitting on someone's opinions?

JERRY111

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:16 AM

enterprise is better than firefly

FOSTER

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:21 AM

Whoa, spewing stereotypes imagine that. I did not know that the only people who liked enterprise were obsessed little boys. I guess that I will just have to reevaluate my interest in the show. And Vulcan’s are liberal when did that happen last time I checked they were the most tradition bound unchanging logical race in the Trek verse. Not that refusal to change and logic really go together if you are looking to survive but never mind.

As for suicidal bombers sure they can blow themselves up all they want but not if other people are in the vicinity. As for killing suicide bombers why the hell not. They want to die for their cause it makes them martyrs. You are much more useful to the cause if you are dead.

The theme that you see against liberal politics in the show and using CNN as conservative, well, I don’t think that you’ve noticed but CNN is a liberal news source. You also didn’t need to slam CAPTIANCDC, just to let you know it makes you look petty.

The propaganda that your talking about in the show that is their prerogative so they support Bush’s decision what’s it to you? If you feel so bad about it go produce your own show and have it support your own beliefs. Otherwise this post of yours is propaganda and well if you want to be more successful at it you might want to follow Hitler’s advice “All propaganda has to be popular and has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least intelligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself.”

As for liberalism in general, do you really just mean you’re against the war? Well war makes great stories. Wait I know another show that had to do with War. If you are trying to say that Firefly’s message is liberal well let me say that if you take our two main political parties and their values, the Democrats would not be the Browncoats. Republicans are for smaller government (much), less government interference in private lives, and more personal responsibility. Just to let you know.

I recomend that you read FREEHOLD by Michael Z. Williamson, at least it will give you an idea of how the other side sees things. or ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand.

"The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits." -Plutarch

SHADESIREN

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:32 AM

I was a loyal Trekkie, thruogh Next Generation, through Voyager, and through most of DS( (ok, I ony really like the Ferengi episodes, but still).

I still own a Next Gen and a Voyager "communicator badge" (pretty shiny pins).

I watched the first season of Enterprise. I thought the Beagle was adorable. I watched part of the second season..

and I realized, hey - I've seen this episode before.. it was called "Enemy Mine" the first time.

I realized that every episode I was watching was a total rip off of some other movie or episode of another series, and I just couldn't watch it anymore.

I think I actually saw the season finale of season 2. I have only seen bits and pieces of the last season - and that was too much. It just made me sick to know that Enterprise would keep flying, when Firefly was gone.

When Buffy was gone.. when Angel was gone.. when Wonderfalls was gone.

All good things must come to an end, huh? Does that mean the bad stuff just goes on and on and on and... ugh.. my tummy hurts.

RKLENSETH

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry111:
enterprise is better than firefly

Now that's a comment that can get you hurt out here, son.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

SIGNYM

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:00 AM

WHAO THERE FOSTER! When you say...

Quote:
If you are trying to say that Firefly’s message is liberal well let me say that if you take our two main political parties and their values, the Democrats would not be the Browncoats. Republicans are for smaller government (much), less government interference in private lives, and more personal responsibility. Just to let you know.

...you're WAAAAY off the mark! The Alliance is not Democrats. It's the United States when it tries to dominate/ colonize other nations. And if you don't belive me, believe Joss...

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life,"' Whedon explains. "And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

Joss Whedon

In this case, it would be George (dubya) Bush interfering in Iraq instead of Johnson interfering in Vietnam. And if you STILL don't believe me- here's the link!

http://flatdisk.net/exonews/xtra/josswhedon.htm

Actually, I suggest you read the whole thing anyway... it's really interesting and very revealing.

Oh and BTW, I don't watch Cap'n Archer. Like the previous poster said- do only the bad things go on and on?

NRKANGEL

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:13 AM

Open post to everyone on this thread-

What's going on here? Good grief, enough with the juvenile crap already. What happened to finding something we can all share and enjoy? I thought that's what this board was about, sharing the fun of FF.

At the top of this posting, there is a note asking everyone to please be civil when responding to others. You're adults. Y'all know what's right. Keep that in mind before rationalizing the subtle insults and derogatory references to others. It not enough to say that someone else started it, or that you were only defending yourself from a personal attack.

You guys have been a lot of fun. Don't spoil it by escalating this trivial crap.

Hey, anyone want to create a FireFly boardgame?

NRKANGEL

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shadesiren:
I was a loyal Trekkie, thruogh Next Generation, through Voyager, and through most of DS( (ok, I ony really like the Ferengi episodes, but still).

It just made me sick to know that Enterprise would keep flying, when Firefly was gone.

All good things must come to an end, huh? Does that mean the bad stuff just goes on and on and on and... ugh.. my tummy hurts.

Yeah...have to agree, hurt tummy and all. I'm still a fan of the old Star Trek series, campy as it looks now, but I couldn't stay on the bandwagon for the whole of STNG or the others. Some episodes were great, but It was just a little too sterile for me...I prefer watching Mal and company match wits with the Alliance and the likes of "YoSafBridge" on the busted-looking, ancient relic of a Firefly. Damn I love that ship...

JRC

Friday, May 21, 2004 2:40 AM

Boycott? No thanks. I will and have stayed away from Idol, that Hilton crap, any "reality" crap for that matter. Can you please get p.o.'d at them instead? The people that make these shows popular should "feel your full wrath", not Enterprise fans. Fan boy geek? Used to be, but it was never a bad thing, like being addicted to cocaine. I have one question about these comparisons on Enterprise and war: Why not ask the writers, producers, even the actors from the show? I'm pretty sure they would have something to say about that. In the meantime, I will not believe everything said about the show.

Everyone dies alone.

RAW53X

Friday, May 21, 2004 2:57 AM

ENTERPRISE. is not a bad show. is had some good epersodes. it just that the series has not been used to its full potential. it been improving in series 3.

the whole war on terror angle has some merrit. but sci-fi has allway mirrored world events just look at the history of comix and movies.

but the suiside bomber eposode morral is "an eye for an eye and the world goes blind".

CLEANER

Friday, May 21, 2004 3:19 AM

Mmmmm to all those calling for a show to be cancelled, u all deserved to have FF cancelled on you.

Alot of people consider FF to be crap or average at best, not that you would ever admit this to yourselves.

Prehaps the lack of comic relief in Enterprise is not to your liking, or maybe they need to add some children to the crew to bring it down closer to your age group? IMHO these are 2 major improvements of Enterprise over TNG Voyager and DS9. I am by no means a Trekkie. I think ST some of the worst PC crap ever put on TV, especially the original series that was 70% outright US propaganda. Enterprise is a breath of fresh air.

It annoys me that people cannot see the links between the episodes. I couldn't believe all these trek nerds complaining that T'Pol was not acting like a Vulcan, if you couldn't read between the lines that she was under the influence of something then GO WATCH SURVIVOR it should be dumb enough for u to comprehend!

I'll say it again DON'T S**T WHERE U EAT! support Scifi, there is very little left.

CALHOUN

Friday, May 21, 2004 3:43 AM

Wailin on Enterprise... with all the other crap on tv... No one should wail on Enterprise without first wailin on about a billion other reality or sitcom shows first. I'll gladly take any sci-fi over idol or the like.

Political parallels... some people can see parallels with anything. Some people hear voices in their heads.

I like smackin'em!

KNIBBLET

Friday, May 21, 2004 3:57 AM

Ghoul,

I have to say that I think the show has improved over the latter half of the current season.

T'Pol isn't a battered wife, nor is she a skank. Her attraction to Archer isn't that of love or the Stockholm Syndrome. The episode that showed them married (He had no ability to maintain memory) displayed only loyalty and a sense of guilt that he was injured saving her.

I enjoy the fact that in an alternate future, she and Tripp are married. He's sort of cute in a southern fella sort of way.

As for the Archer/Bush parallels ... I couldn't agree with you less.

1. Unlike Archer, Bush is not the son of a great man. He's the son of a one term president who was allegedly "out of the loop" concerning Iran/Contra. hmmmm, former head of the CIA, current VP and he is out of the loop?

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday. "Like Father Like Son. One Term." I'm going to get one for my car.

Before I hear about how I'm a just a liberal and therefore a 'hater', I voted for Reagan twice and Bush Sr once.

Archer isn't a weak-minded, lying bastage who avoids moral responsibility and the slightest personal risk. He doesn't think he hears God singing his praises in his morning bowl of cornflakes.

I like Archer. I loathe Shrub.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

DRBORIS

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:20 AM

Star Trek has from its inception always carried a political message of some sort. Granted it used to be far more American-centrist. So what if it swung later. decide the swing direction for yourselves and stop argueing about it ain't accomplishing anything and because in the long run most people arn't growing their political opinions from what they've seen on Trek.

Got news for some of you who hate Ent. because of seasons one and two. No Trek was ever at its best right out of the gate. Ent. just had a particularly bad start due to poor writeing and no attempts to find the stride.
...
The quality improvement for the latter half of this season? Yup, experimenting with different writers...

As for insulting Trekkies: It's mean for no reason. I know popular media has given them a bad name for being show worshipping nerds but I mean, take a look at us. The orriginal Trek had about DOUBLE the time on air our hero show did. Who are we to make fun of them...

Oh well, all of that is just my built up frustration at the Ent. bashers. Take it for what its worth...

---
"If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." - Mal

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:

And could you expand upon what you meant by this:
Quote:
btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

Thought I was clear when I said about my political posts ...

Quote:
About politics... I don't know myself but it's pretty obvious to me Firefly was 'messed with' by FOX simply because they saw it as liberal propoganda. That, btw will be my next thread.

btw, a lie is not an opinion. So don't jump on me for shitting on peoples opinions, as I've never done that. Liars, however, will feel my full wrath.

And to CERTAIN OTHERS HERE - I don't appreciate being misquoted... TWICE, in this thread. If you people don't know how to read I might suggest the long walk off the short warp nacelle.

And I can see I've found a bunch of people who have no frellin' clue at all. No politics in Star Trek? STAR TREK!!! Buy a frellin' clue.

SIGNYM

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:21 PM

Politics is in EVERYTHING. Some of you are too young to remember those ridiculous Pledge (furniture polish) commercials with the woman waltzing around her upper middle class home in heels and a chiffon dress, a can of Pledge in her hand, but there's politics in that too: We're all upper-middle class or aspire to be, the woman is a stay at home whose biggest concern is getting her furniture glossy and clean, buying something will make you complete.

It's deeply frustrating to read science fiction that dreams up atom-thick beings living on the surface of a neutron star who have no idea of a vertical dimension, only to have them behave like the author's stupid idea of primitive African tribes... Even LeGuin, who TRIES to address the social dimension, can't seem to rid her characters of a North American middle class angst.

Firefly is in fact OVERTLY political. You don't need to look very deep to see that Mal is reacting to the political, economic, and military structure of his 'verse by being in opposition.

Having said that... Ghoulman, while I understand your frustration it's not productive to glower. We have a guy at work whose main response to so-called liberal politics is to adopt a threatening stance (raised voice, nose to nose, veins popping, fists clenched). It's a real discussion stopper.

JLP

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:40 PM

Ghoulman,

What a load. When I read posts like yours, posts that attempt to be so completely pseudo-intellectual about an entertainment show, I can have only one rational reaction--to roll my eyes. Agenda? Yes. You do have an agenda. Destroy what little science fiction on television there is in the name of advancing some liberal namby pamby schlepp ideals.

Do I love Star Trek Enterprise? Not especially. I have watched it off and on for the three seasons. I liked season one fairly, season 2 left me uninterested, and season three has been one of the more enjoyable sci-fi seasons anywhere.

Do I get my politics from Star Trek? Come on. Do I get my opinions on the Iraqi war from Star Trek? You must be kidding.

It is a show. It is entertainment. I am completely capable, as are the majority of people who think about anythign besides their navel lint of keeping story and reality seperate. So even if ST:E is trying to advance "right wing" ideals, are we not able to distance ourselves from the story line?

I had included a long political rant in this post. I have taken it out because you know what? This site is a haven for me. A place I visit daily to hang out with folks who love firefly. Politics makes people angry. I know my opinions, and no poorly worded argument by you will change them. I will avoid your posts from now on.

over and out.

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Having said that... Ghoulman, while I understand your frustration it's not productive to glower. We have a guy at work whose main response to so-called liberal politics is to adopt a threatening stance (raised voice, nose to nose, veins popping, fists clenched). It's a real discussion stopper.

Terrific post SignyM. You're great!

And about that guy in your office... send him my way and I can deal with him.

And just to put this out there (to no one in particular) - people around this BBS seem to blame me for 'arguments' on this BBS. Well, I gotta say that's just sour grapes from people who can't deal with someone who doesn't put up with baloney. You know... I gots man parts

. Ain't Dr. Phil over here. Notice how some people, even in this thread, are so put out they lay down post after post about how horrible I am. Well, it's not like I'm going after people. I got jumped in the 'Our President' thread and defended myself from a lieing bastard. Then, a certain someone decided to troll me about the 'torture Mr. Bush' thing... and he got his too (for being a liar, cruel, and inhuman). It's not like I don't play nice if people play fair.

But this Enterprise thing is not the end of the world... why some people think that I can only imagine they are 'smelly'

Personally, I see it as a sad comment on Sci-Fi, which I think is the point I made clear in my first post. Some people bring a lot of baggage with them and Trekkies (btw, I consider myself a Trekkie) perhaps more so.

Case in point... I spent a few months last year posting against Enterprise on th eTrekBBS. Funny, the Trek fans there like me. It's like I said in another thread - a lack of sagacity isn't a judgement on your intellegence. People like Benny Hill but that doesn't make them stupid. Though not understanding that might indecate so *chuckle*

What... you're shocked and disappointed? I'm evil.

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jlp:
Ghoulman,

What a load. When I read posts like yours, posts that attempt to be so completely pseudo-intellectual about an entertainment show, I can have only one rational reaction--to roll my eyes. Agenda? Yes. You do have an agenda. Destroy what little science fiction on television there is in the name of advancing some liberal namby pamby schlepp ideals.

Do I love Star Trek Enterprise? Not especially. I have watched it off and on for the three seasons. I liked season one fairly, season 2 left me uninterested, and season three has been one of the more enjoyable sci-fi seasons anywhere.

Do I get my politics from Star Trek? Come on. Do I get my opinions on the Iraqi war from Star Trek? You must be kidding.

It is a show. It is entertainment. I am completely capable, as are the majority of people who think about anythign besides their navel lint of keeping story and reality seperate. So even if ST:E is trying to advance "right wing" ideals, are we not able to distance ourselves from the story line?

I had included a long political rant in this post. I have taken it out because you know what? This site is a haven for me. A place I visit daily to hang out with folks who love firefly. Politics makes people angry. I know my opinions, and no poorly worded argument by you will change them. I will avoid your posts from now on.

over and out.

Does ENTERPRISE have an agenda? Does Star Trek have a tradition of political stories? Does Ghoulman have an agenda?

Well, I'm speculating (that's the pseudo-intellectual part, can't disagree there) on the right wing shift in Enterprise. Which I think is a valid argument considering the shows past. I would hope you might recognise that before just dumping on me. It's not like I pulled this stuff from my ass. Also, I did mention the negative affect this sort of 'franchise' creature can have and the damage it can bring to genre TV and movies. But hey, if you don't care about such things ...

RKLENSETH

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:35 PM

And so something is only good if it is left wing propaganda? I find that hard to swallow because both the right wing and the left wing have committed just as much atrocities as the other.

So what if Enterprise has a right wing leaning. Should we boycott The West Wing because it has a left wing leaning?

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:47 PM

^^^ and where is that said rklenseth? BTW, I think West Wing is didactic in a similar way Enterprise is. But please keep in mind... no one was ever killed because of some milque toast lefty gits bullsh*t opinions.

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by annik:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Worse, Enterprise is also the producers sycophantic pro George "Dubya" Bush cream dream. Notice how the protagonist, Capt. Archer, is the son of a "great man" who was held back by the (liberal) Vulcans. As the show progresses, Archer becomes increasingly more angry and with a terrorist attack on Earth by an alien race he agrees to "do what it takes" to ... well, the actual goals aren't defined. Stop the bad guys? Sound familiar? Propoganda is not what I watch Star Trek for let alone a soft sell for the War in Iraq. It's become painfully obvious that Enterprise means to present the 'War against Islam" as a great adventure. Sick.
(snipped)
Boycott Enterprise.

Thanx for your time.
---
Ghoulman

I think you've done a great analysis here, Ghoulman, although as a non-American I'd go a step further and say that the show seems to be doing a soft-sell on war in general, not just the one in Iraq. (So, are you guys planning to invade anyone else this year? ).

I'll still watch the show, at this point mostly to see what else they'll screw up in their own continuity/character development.

Your point about entertainment being used as propaganda is well-known by many: remember when all the bad guys in movies always looked German? (remember The Empire in Star Wars?)

Then we hit ST:TNG and all the Romulans look suspiciously middle-eastern. It goes on from there.

I well remember a class at uni where we were looking at the movie, "Top Gun," and one guy kept insisting it was just a great movie and wasn't trying to say anything. As one of our American classmates said to him, "Do you think that the navy just loans out aircraft carriers for the heck of it?"

There was a point here somewhere, but I think it got lost somewhere behind a bad script.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

I once loved a girl named Annik. Ahhh, Quebec City. YOU deserve a nice cyber cookie. Enjoy.

Thanx for recognising what certain other people seem to be purposely avoiding - the allegory.

SIGNYM

Friday, May 21, 2004 5:14 PM

Well, I always wondered why this bimbo was waltzing around with a can of Pledge, fer Chrissakes. Now it's babes humping beer bottles, credit cards, and cars. Talk about replacing human relationships with conusmer products!

SOUTHERNMERC

Friday, May 21, 2004 5:29 PM

Actually, Ghoulman, most of the posts of yours I have read have been very political (regardless of topic) and somewhat aggressive in tone. That you care deeply for politics comes through in your posts. The only problem being that you put a political slant on EVERY post I have read. While many of us enjoy, and look forward to, political discussions with other intelligent adults, you seem to push it upon others. That, I believe, is the issue some here have with you. Not that you are a left-wing, right-wing, dining-room, servant's-quarters or any other part of the house political person, but that you are too aggressive with it and bring politics into non-political threads. I can see you have alot of passion for this, but please remember that others may not share your enthusiasm for politics in a non-political context.

And, BTW, saying someone has a lack of sagacity means you are saying they have a lack of intelligence and judgment, since sagacity means "penetrating intelligence and sound judgment." You also don't seem to speak well of anyone til they agree with you, and trash those that don't, that doesn't help at all. Name calling doesn't help your argument, please refrain.

Now, back to topic.

Enterprise season one and two were alright in that I needed the SF fix and it was there. Some of the stories had been done before on other Trek series, though, and this was a little off-putting. When season three rolled around, I could only get through part of it before I removed it from my recorder's programming. I can see the topical nature of the current season's plot (you are right about that, GM), but the enemy in the show is alot more clear cut than the one's IRL. Archer's mission is alot clearer, as well, which made me question his judgment on a few episodes (don't ask me to name them, don't remember) when he got sidetracked doing something OTHER than moving forward toward the objective. I liked the addition of the Andorians when they first appeared, as they added an interesting political dynamic between humans and vulcans. That is what I really wish they had explored with the third season, instead of a "save the EAAAAAAAAARRTH!!" (big, booming, dramatic music and sing-song voice) storyline. There have been a few good eps. this season, but not enough to keep me interested.

DrBoris said:

Quote:
No Trek was ever at its best right out of the gate. Ent. just had a particularly bad start due to poor writeing and no attempts to find the stride.

This can be said about MANY great shows. Quite a few didn't hit their stride until later seasons, and not just Trek series (Cheers, MASH, B5). It takes a little patience to realize the great ones when they are among us. Sadly, TV execs don't have ANY nowadays: If a show doesn't rock the house right away, it gets cancelled. One reason reality shows are the rage now is that they DON'T have to build up, as they get big, drooling ratings right off the bat. They also don't hang around long, only one season typically, so don't have to be good enough to hold on to viewers. Just good (or freaky, sick, or droll) enough to get the flash-in-the-pan interest. Enterprise may get better. Will have to look at all the eps. of this season on reruns to be sure.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, May 21, 2004 6:24 PM

Quote:
And, BTW, saying someone has a lack of sagacity means you are saying they have a lack of intelligence and judgment, since sagacity means "penetrating intelligence and sound judgment." You also don't seem to speak well of anyone til they agree with you, and trash those that don't, that doesn't help at all. Name calling doesn't help your argument, please refrain.

That is how Ghoulman handles all of his threads. If a person does not agree with him, well they must be a moron.

And no Ghoulman, I do not purposefully ignore allegory. I just don't see right wing progaganda in every allegorical storyline like you apparently do.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

RUE

Friday, May 21, 2004 7:37 PM

The absolute most alien show I've ever seen is FF.

There was an exchange that went (more or less):
"If you can't run, then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, and if you can't crawl ..."

Now as I was following this I was trying to predict how this sequence would end.

In Western cultures we are taught that only the 'immutable' things are meaningful ... the isms and ologies. People achieve meaning with their lives only insofar as they lose themselves or sacrifice themselves to the greater. It makes our economic system possible (c'mon, do you REALLY want your certain fate to be to toil most of the years of your life and hope and pray you don't get ill and wiped out financially?) So our ending would be "if you can't crawl ... do yourself in so as not to be a burden to this big all important ism."

Instead it ended ... "find someone to carry you."
Now THAT is political. And alien.

Much more interesting that watching cowBOYS in space.

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
I have been watching Enterprise since the first ep, and am thoroughly pleased that it is coming back. For one reason, because it pisses you off so much.

I formally ask you to go find a hobby other than slandering me.

FIREFLEW

Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:30 PM

Personally, it really doesn't surprise me if they're doing this. This entire war in Iraq has been a whole host of, well not propoganda, but half-truths.

Don't get me wrong, Saddam Hussein was an abhorrent person who deserves everything he gets.

However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Sorry that this isn't related, but my point is there is spin in almost everything, even what was formerly harmless (and drivel-like) entertainment.

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

ANNIK

Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The absolute most alien show I've ever seen is FF.

There was an exchange that went (more or less):
"If you can't run, then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, and if you can't crawl ..."

Now as I was following this I was trying to predict how this sequence would end.

In Western cultures we are taught that only the 'immutable' things are meaningful ... the isms and ologies. People achieve meaning with their lives only insofar as they lose themselves or sacrifice themselves to the greater. It makes our economic system possible (c'mon, do you REALLY want your certain fate to be to toil most of the years of your life and hope and pray you don't get ill and wiped out financially?) So our ending would be "if you can't crawl ... do yourself in so as not to be a burden to this big all important ism."

Instead it ended ... "find someone to carry you."
Now THAT is political. And alien.

Much more interesting that watching cowBOYS in space.

Great catch, Rue! As one of those needing someone to carry me right now (gorram cancer!) I think this is right on the money.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

HUMBLE

Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:20 PM

Well, personally, I have never been a big fan of Star Trek. The Borg in STNG were a very interesting concept to me along with the Borg tie-ins with Voyager. I do watch Enterprise from time to time. Lately, the eps HAVE been getting pretty good. (They must have fired all the writers? Noticed that cast members from Voyager are directing some eps. Roxanne Dawson is doing a good job and I think Levar Burton does well as a director.) One of my favorite shows Babylon Five, was really slow getting out of the gate but it took off after Boxleitner joined the cast. Maybe Enterprise will come around as well. You're 100% right about the "Forgetten Cast Members" not being included into show. The Mayweather and Hoshi characters are so far out in left field that sometimes I forget they are in the show at all! Capt. Archer's character is boring and lacks a spine. Tripp or T'Pol could do better. Maybe a casting change is in order? Incidentally, concerning the ship. Could they blow that hunk of junk up and build a cooler one next season? (If there IS a next season.)

Can't wait untill Serenity comes to the big screen!!

SOUTHERNMERC

Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:46 PM

Quote:
However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Didn't they find some artillery shells with sarin gas in them? I don't remember the exact news bit, so can you clarify?

Can I get a sorta consensus going as to whether or not to check out the latest season of Enterprise? They are going with a fourth season, so my thoughts are it is either: total mass market pablum being brought back OR actually worth losing an hour of my life watching.

Thanx.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

SHINY

Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
I have been watching Enterprise since the first ep, and am thoroughly pleased that it is coming back. For one reason, because it pisses you off so much.

I formally ask you to go find a hobby other than slandering me.

Ghoulman, in your naive and incorrect use of 'slander', you display the same lack of sagaciousness that you pedantically enjoy pointing out in others:

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=387728&query=slander&ct=

"In law, issuance of false statements about a person that injure his reputation or that deter others from associating with him...Slander is defamation by oral communication. An action for slander may be brought without alleging and proving special injury if the statement has a plainly harmful character, as by imputing to the plaintiff criminal guilt, serious sexual misconduct, or a characteristic negatively affecting his business or profession. The defense in defamation cases often takes the form of seeking to establish the truth of the statements in question."

Now that we've established your own lack of sagacity, go take a valium or ten, well ya? And stop insulting your fellow browncoats just because they disagree with your pretentious pseudo-intellectual babblings.

Full disclosure: I hate what Bush and the neocons are doing to this country, and am disgusted at the spinelessness of moderate, once-upon-a-time-fiscally-responsible republicans (and democrats) for not standing up to the administration. Oh, and I think Enterprise was so-so in the first couple seasons and pretty good overall in this last season...and I'll be ignoring your inevitable attack on my intelligence and/or taste, so don't waste your breath.

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

QUICKSAND

Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:13 AM

It's a viable universe, except when Roddenberry (who was brilliant) died, for some reason the torch was passed to Ronald Moore and Brannon Braga, who are morons.

Fascistic, mysoginistic morons, if I recall their episodes of "TNG" correctly.

They killed it dead. And they're too stupid to know it, because of all that money and sex they have.

___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

RUE

Sunday, May 23, 2004 5:57 PM

Annik,

Not having been where you are, I can only imagine.

I hope you live in a humane country with decent medical care and basic support for every day life.

And I deeply and sincerely hope you are doing better every day.

JLP

Monday, May 24, 2004 7:11 PM

Annik,

I too hope that you are doing well, and that you are not in any pain. I hope that this board and the general company of browncoats can bring a little enjoyment.

Best wishes.

DUNDEE

Monday, May 24, 2004 7:48 PM

i watched an eppisode of enterprise the other day.... i didnt think it was all THAT bad..... ofcourse i also fell asleep 10 minutes in so.........

Dear diary, Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy,
Today we where kidnapped my hill folk never to be seen again, it was the best day ever.

FIREFLEW

Monday, May 24, 2004 8:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Quote:
However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Didn't they find some artillery shells with sarin gas in them? I don't remember the exact news bit, so can you clarify?

I'm not sure about that, but I was referring to the claim that Iraq had deployable (within 45 minutes) long range weapons of mass destrution; this was the information that Bush/Blair presented to people in order to get backing for a war.

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

MAUGWAI

Monday, May 24, 2004 8:51 PM

I think some people are confused about the difference between an allegory and a message. I definitely think Enterprise has several messages. Any decent show does. And I happen to like Enterprise better the second half of this season. So I watch it. I don't really care if anybody else does. If you hate it, more power to you. Watch something else.

But I don't think it's an allegory. An allegory is a story in which every element symbolizes something in real life, and the story its self is a symbol of a real life issue. So if you do believe Enterprise is completely symbolic of Bush's regime, then I suppose you're right in calling it an allegory. But I don't think everything in the show has a real life reflection.

Personally, I think the show has been finding its way this season. It's about sacrifices, both moral and physical, that we make for the greater good, and whether or not it's worth the cost. And I think that's worth investigating.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

PEACE

Monday, May 24, 2004 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SouthernMerc:
Quote:
However, the ORIGINAL cause of war was, essentially, a lie. There are no weapons of mass destruction found, a year after the war. In England, it was found that the idea of 45-minute deployable WMD was in fact a lie.

Didn't they find some artillery shells with sarin gas in them? I don't remember the exact news bit, so can you clarify?

I believe the find was of some artillery shells left over from the Iran-Iraq war. These would be battle-field weapons, tactical and extremely short-range, and a whole other category from the strategic WMD's most everyone had in mind when the war was being debated-- the sort of weapon that would have allowed Saddam to reach out and touch Riyadh (sp?) or Tel Aviv. That's why, for example, there was considerable discussion as to whether Saddam had violated range-limits on his ballistic missiles.

If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

ABSALON

Monday, May 24, 2004 11:28 PM

Dear God, if you hate it that much, just stop watching it. Watch your Firefly DVD again.

P.S. Its better than Voyager, least the captain's male.
You can add sexist to the story now :D

P.P.S. Not to totally disagree with you, I think replacing enterprise with Firefly would rock, just let me see how series, oops sorry, season 3 ends.

Oh, I'm going to that special kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:00 AM

Annik, how're you doing? Let us know if there is ANYTHING we can do to help- even if it's just to jaw about FF.

(((((((Annik))))))

ANNIK

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Annik,

Not having been where you are, I can only imagine.

I hope you live in a humane country with decent medical care and basic support for every day life.

And I deeply and sincerely hope you are doing better every day.

Thank you, Rue! I do live in a country with decent medical care: Canada. And I've been quite amazed/happy at what medical resources we have available to us here that fellow cancer survivors elsewhere, very sadly, don't.

The surpsing thing to me is how little there is to support someone who has kids and was once a major breadwinner in the two-working-adult-family ... I may be wrong, but it seems like getting cancer as a senior citizen is probably easier here ... at least they get a pension and probably don't have elementary-school aged dependents, as we do.

Sigh. I've said for awhile now that it's not the cancer that will kill me, it's the paperwork.

Sorry for going OT here.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

ANNIK

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jlp:
Annik,

I too hope that you are doing well, and that you are not in any pain. I hope that this board and the general company of browncoats can bring a little enjoyment.

Best wishes.

Thank you, JLP!

This Christmas past was the first-time ever our formerly 'middle-class' family needed to use a food bank. We also signed up at the cancer hospital for a Christmas hamper. The company that sponsored our family not only gave us all the fixin's for an excellent celebration meal, but they included the Firefly DVDs from our wish list as a present for the grownups.

We watch them often, and always happily.

I am fortunate re: pain. I had an excellent surgeon and experienced minimal discomfort after my mastectomy. Ongoing practise of tai chi has kept me with a full range of motion and I haven't suffered any post-surgical complications.

Chemo was long (18 months!) but seemed manageable at the time ... and thanks to one of the drugs, my formerly poker-straight hair came back in jet-black and curly! Woo hoo!

So far, checkups are looking good and I remain a NED (no evidence of disease) ... taking this thread *slightly* back to topic, if we only had the kind of scanning technology they've got on Star Trek (or, for that matter, the stuff Simon knew how to use!) we could probably tell a breast cancer patient definitively whether or not she still carried active cancer cells lurking around her body, waiting to metastasise.

And I love visiting with all you folks ... it's like some sort of eerie-ass second home.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

ANNIK

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Annik, how're you doing? Let us know if there is ANYTHING we can do to help- even if it's just to jaw about FF.

(((((((Annik))))))

Thanks for the hug, SignyM. Us one-breasted gals are particularly good at giving really *close* hugs.

(My apologies to the list for inadvertently taking this thread OT!

)

As mentioned in the two posts above, I'm doing OK (so far). Crossed fingers and prayers are always welcome.

I have had what I consider post-chemo complications (that is, I developed some problems 'coincidently' around when my chemo finished). I now have asthma and fibromyalgia, and the two are proving to be major problems getting a handle on.

I'm so exhausted that working FT again is a distant dream ... I still teach evenings at college for 1-2 courses per semester. A couple hours at a time is about as much as I can handle. But my old 'day job' career is on indefinite hiatus. When I have a good day, I'm working on writing and editing SF ... finally!

I'll stop now ... (sniff) ...everyone's questions are very surprising and ... wow! Thanks for the interest! I will *certainly* let you folks know if there is anything you can do to help.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Peace:
If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.

This may very well be exactly what we were looking for. These are weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam Hussein was supposed to have gotten rid of them in accordance with UN Resolution 1441. It doesn't matter whether they are on missiles that can hit Riyadh or not (which Iraq also had).

It was confirmed that Iraq also had a missile that could hit both Tel Aviv and Riyadh. Iraq had produced many Al Husayn missiles which had a range of over 600 km. These weapons were strictly forbidden by UN resolution 687, which imposed a range limit of 150km. They have payload of over 500kg and can be fitted with chemical weapons.

PEACE

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Peace:
If I'm recalling this incorrectly, somebody shoot me a correction, please.
This may very well be exactly what we were looking for. These are weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam Hussein was supposed to have gotten rid of them in accordance with UN Resolution 1441. It doesn't matter whether they are on missiles that can hit Riyadh or not (which Iraq also had).

It was confirmed that Iraq also had a missile that could hit both Tel Aviv and Riyadh. Iraq had produced many Al Husayn missiles which had a range of over 600 km. These weapons were strictly forbidden by UN resolution 687, which imposed a range limit of 150km. They have payload of over 500kg and can be fitted with chemical weapons.

But my impression was that these were not from discovered caches of weapon, but were derelict pieces left over and forgotten from the Iran-Iraq War-- and, according to these two articles, not even distinguishable from regular artillery shells:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2575724

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0521/p09s01-coop.html

The shell or shells in question could only have been used in artilley, not in missiles (they couldn't be armed without being fired from a gun).

You're certainly entitled to see the issue differently, but to me this doesn't seem to be in the same class as strategic weapons.

And I apologize for helping to take this thread off-topic (I swore I wasn't going to do that, I really did....).

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:41 AM

Uh... WHAT was the topic of this thread?? I've forgotten!

But that's OK- weve taken some interesting detours along the way.

((((((((Annik+family))))))))

SHINY

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:25 AM

The topic is how much browncoats love each other.

{{{{{{{{{{Annik}}}}}}}}}}

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:07 AM

A great deal of Hussein’s chemical weapons were leftovers from the Persian War, or shortly there after. I don't know what difference that makes. And not being distinguishable from an explosive artillery shell doesn't make any difference either. These are chemical weapons. These are the reasons we went to war. Hussein was not supposed to have them.

As far as strategic weapons are concerned, according to the UN, that is irrelevant, also. The UN does not limit the list of banned weapons to strategic weapons. The UN says that Iraq is not allowed to have any chemical weapons, at all. Now if you're okay with Hussein's Iraq having had chemical weapons, then okay, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong, but based on the Resolutions against Iraq, the UN doesn't agree.

The only question is, did they come from an Iraqi cache or were they imported from, say Syria? Chances are pretty good that they did come from an Iraqi cache. The problem is proving that, and to do that, we’re going to have to identify a cache.

Also best wishes to Annik. I've dealt with cancer in my family, and my prayers are with you.

SCORPIUSTOTA

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:05 AM

Ghoulman and his buddies here...

You remind of every single Liberal I've ever met at college. You run around looking for reasons to get upset and angry. Guess what? If ya look hard enough, you'll find them.

When I watch these shows, I watch them for entertainment value. I, as a conservative, can even manage to enjoy The West Wing, and you don't get a more propoganda show than that. The difference is, you run around in life looking for reason to be offended, instead of just living life. If you want to spend the little time you have on Earth mad at a show like Enterprise, that's fine, go ahead. Your wasting your time. I'm willing to bet even a Liberal has better things to do. I'm sure there's a white assed tit-mouse that needs saving somewhere. :)

In the very first thread I read on these boards, I am being driven away from them. I came to this site, thinking I would find a friendly site, like watchfarscape.com is. A site where people who all genuinely enjoy a show can come together and celebrate it. Instead, I find drivel like this. I was insulted as a conservative just reading your posts, and none of your pretentious, smug, and condescending remarks were even directed to me.

I know, I know, the fact that you have driven a conservative away from this community probably pleases you in some way. That's not the kind of life I choose to live. Many of my real life friends are liberals, and we manage to be friends, without insulting each other or stepping on each others toes. Perhaps you'll learn more about debate as you get older. It's not about insulting the other person, it's more about backing up your own points.

As to your post. I think you're reaching. I think you are reading into things in order to find something to be angry at. Given enough time and enough episodes, I could draw paralells to the current world environment and "Saved by the Bell". Sure, some of the plot lines strike home, but how relevant is a show that doesn't? How can you enjoy something you can't relate to your own life? I think your comments about T'pol, the Vulcans, the Xindi, and Archer are just twisting things to fit some agenda you have. I don't know what it is or why...

I guess what I'm saying in the end is, lets leave our political ambitions at the door, and use this site for what is intended for. A place for fans of Firefly to come together and celebrate that we are getting our ruttin movie. And series. And spinoff. and more movies.... (hey, I can dream, can't I?)

-Scorp

p.s. Insulting someone on the internet based on grammatical skills and thier English is usually considered rude and childish. In case you didn't realize, the whole world has access to the internet, and some people here may not hold English as their primary form of communication. We know Al Gore invented it, but the whole world gets to play in this sandbox. So please cover up your droppings before the kid from France steps in it. :)

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:24 PM

*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:27 PM

*hmm. Oh well.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
I think some people are confused about the difference between an allegory and a message. I definitely think Enterprise has several messages. Any decent show does. And I happen to like Enterprise better the second half of this season. So I watch it. I don't really care if anybody else does. If you hate it, more power to you. Watch something else.

But I don't think it's an allegory. An allegory is a story in which every element symbolizes something in real life, and the story its self is a symbol of a real life issue. So if you do believe Enterprise is completely symbolic of Bush's regime, then I suppose you're right in calling it an allegory. But I don't think everything in the show has a real life reflection.

Personally, I think the show has been finding its way this season. It's about sacrifices, both moral and physical, that we make for the greater good, and whether or not it's worth the cost. And I think that's worth investigating.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

You know, before I go silent I wanted to point out that this was a great point. I personally do see it as an allegory of the Bush agenda, I'd call this thinly veiled propaganda. We could argue the fine points if this thread wasn't stuffed with attacks on me. Sorry.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:00 PM

I’ve been silent on this point for the most part. Primarily because I couldn’t care less about this show. But I will say this one point: in order for something to be propaganda, it must be deliberate. And that is where your argument fails and why it seems so much like ideological pandering. Anyone can argue some allegory about something. You can say this is symbolic of this or that, and it may or may not be true, but it may not necessarily be the intention of the author. You are drawing some fairly specific conclusions about this show, and until you can demonstrate that the author or authors intended for these allegories to be drawn about a specific administration or cause then there is no way to imply any propaganda, no matter how thinly veiled.

NRKANGEL

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*
The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

Yo, Ghoul- You make good points and interesting arguments even if I don't always agree, but you've got to cut out the self-aggrandizing martyrdom, it's getting old.

In this case, I've been pretty much on your side since this thing started, but you're letting it get away with you, dude.

SOUTHERNSLAYER

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:16 PM

Ghoulman's gone silent! great!! Does this mean we wont need to log on to find another of Ghoulmans pointless, egotistical and often offensive posts ever again?! Things are at last looking up!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

CAPTAINCDC

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

You wanted proof of your "attacks" on people on this site? This is just one of your many posts, posted in the Help Save Enterprise thread started March 29, 2004:

Quote:
ENT is the worst show on TV. I gotta wonder about people who trash Firefly for being sexist while this crap show has that battered wife Vulcan whore mentality. The writers (if I can call them that, hmm, no guess not!) reveal thier sick mysoginist minds with every second show. Then they insult the entire Islamic world with thier racist allegories. Oh I could go on and on...

I do hope all my Firefly friends work hard to beat up every ENT fan they see. They deserve it.

Wishing violence on people that disagree with you about the show might be considered an attack.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:34 PM

.. and I'm the one with the martyr complex?

Fanboy politics. Never fails.

SOULOFSERENITY

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:13 PM

Ghoulman...dude...get off your high horse, man. I really hope you're not expecting respect, 'cause you're certainly not deserving of it. The insulting really needs to stop. It's childish and for the most part undeserved. If people don't agree with your point of view, suck it up and accept that not everyone shares your high-strung political/conspiracy views.

You want to bash someone, then stick with bashing me. I'd rather be the only one recieving your unmitigated attacks than to have you chase away Firefly fans who come here expecting to find unjudging kindred souls.

Ease off, man. I await your sarcastic and severely biased return volley with open arms.

P.S. Annik, I now thank you more than ever for your help and I will be happy to send you some of my crap writing if you need an editorial challenge! You are in my prayers!!!

______________________

But if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

ABSALON

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*sigh*

Well, I've given up on this thread except to say I hope ANNIK is doing well and I want to apologise to her and anyone else who was interested in the subject of this thread.

The rest of you just wanted to attack me... prolly because I made a fool of you at some point which is easy enough. I love how those people insist I've attacked people, etc. Well, you can always cut and paste the proof.

Bye then

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

ABSALON

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
*hmm. Oh well.

yeah, ok, bye

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

ABSALON

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
.. and I'm the one with the martyr complex?

Fanboy politics. Never fails.

hasn't he gone yet

oh, i'm going to that special part of hell

ANNIK

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:01 AM

OKAY gang ... let's all play nice a bit and get back on-discussion ... sort of.

I'm not going to scroll back and pull quotes, so I'm using paraphrasing only here ... but I think the underlying topic of propaganda inside entertainment is one that really *should* be addressed.

Someone in this thread mentioned that to be propaganda, the actions need to be deliberate. I think that is a *fair* statement, and it is fair to wonder whether the folks putting Enterprise together are doing what they do deliberately ... at a guess, I'd say they're not doing it deliberately.

(And I'm speaking as someone with several years in the world of propa--ooops, I mean, PR.).

But ... here's where things get interesting: when our entertainment mirrors the 'official line'.

I'm of the opinion that a sign of really effective propaganda is when the key messages of the propaganda *propagates* itself through the public realm.

(To wit: our kids almost never get to eat McDeathburgers, but wow, can they ever sing that commercial jingle ba-da-ba-ba-ba well! So guess what they beg for?)

To take us away from our day-to-day lives (and attempting to keep this from returning to personal slinging at one another), let's look at ancient Rome.

Roman men had wives to bear them heirs. They had mistresses for entertainment and conversation. It was perfectly acceptable for a mistress to be well educated and thus able to communicate smartly with the men around her. A respectable wife, OTOH, was forbidden this sort of thing. (Sorry, no citations ... I lent my Roman history books out and they haven't come back yet ... tho' it's probably easy to follow up on this example for those who are determined! )

Anyhow ... back to the main point. "Everyone knew" that Roman matrons were stupid and uninteresting. The fact that the Romans had deliberately built their society to be that way didn't seem to register on them at all.

Back to us in contemporary times ... how many things in our day-to-day lives do we accept on the basis that "everyone knows" something? How often does what "everyone knows" stand up to scrutiny?

I think that each of us in our respective countries can think of recent historical examples of this type of thinking: particularly related to civil rights, women's rights, freedom of religious expression, etc.

I don't claim to have any answers here, but I think it is important to encourage ourselves and our children to learn to view the infotainment we receive with a critical eye. From what I observe, critical thought is rarely an instinctual process; most people I consider critical thinkers were coached or instructed in the process of critical thinking.

And, BTW, critical thinking does not simply mean being 'critical' or negative towards everything around you. It means using your five senses to look at a wide variety of perspectives, weighing those perspectives, and determining meaning beyond the surface packaging we are usually presented with.

So ... the reason a show like Firefly probably resonates with so many of us (beyond the pure and lovely entertainment of it) is that Firefly promotes personal responsibility and critical thought. Mal and his gang don't always work outside the law; however, they're quite prepared to ignore stupid laws that are stupid for law's sake.

I could go on here, but I won't. I'd love to see some further discussion on this underlying issue, but I'm thinking perhaps we should start a new thread on it. Any takers?

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

QUICKSAND

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:17 AM

I'll take that bet.

The problem is that anything that makes one Think Critically tends to get crapped on by the masses. "Dude, Firefly is stoopid," I'll often read or hear. "Sci-Fi and cows?! U R dum!"

We, the Critical Thinkers, are in the minority. Or at least, that's the way it feels to ME. Clever, thought provoking TV or film is low-rated, and makes little money, while the top-rated TV shows and movies are such clever, intellectual fare as "American Idol," and "Four Explosions and a CGI Funeral."

We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.

But we can URGE people in a certain direction: "I'm not driving you to McDonald's; how about Subway?" or, "Hey, there's this new movie called 'Serenity' coming out, and it's AWESOME."

I maintain that "Pulp Fiction" was slightly more intellectual entertainment, because you had to think about it, and once the Smart Folks explained it, it DID find a way into popular culture. Same with Buffy, or ... I dunno, Aspirin.

Unfortunately, "Enterprise" pays off right now, in the millions, to the Corporate Whores of the world. So we're screwed.

But thanks for the very, very good argument. Only one out of every 50 people I meet can even comprehend Critical Thinking, so maybe that's another reason to just try to lead by example. I dunno.

RUE

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 2:11 AM

I sometimes wonder if American acceptance of cr*p is due to an unstated admiration for ignorance. Somehow Americans equate ignorance with wisdom, rather than trashy boorishness. And it is considered better to be an ignorant if trashy common man than an educated uncommon one.

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

Bone-headed thinking, or honest and sincere?

I think at one time some people did live in a society where the honesty and reliability of neighbors, and the stark necessities of life, were real forces. It didn't take much learning to evaluate people and things in that scheme. Anyone who wasn't plain-spoken about the simple necessities of life was too clever, and suspect. And ignorance and honesty were melded into a precept.

But those days are long, long gone, if they ever did exist on a large scale.

So I think what we have is a shared myth whereby people keep themselves ignorant, and are easily manipulated by images.

I think it is preferable to be wise in the world, but simple in response. But that idea hasn't caught on yet.

While I'm not religious, this sums it up for me:
Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

ANNIK

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I sometimes wonder if American acceptance of cr*p is due to an unstated admiration for ignorance. Somehow Americans equate ignorance with wisdom, rather than trashy boorishness. And it is considered better to be an ignorant if trashy common man than an educated uncommon one.
(snip)

Heh heh ... this explains why "A Canticle for Leibowitz" was set in the US.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

QUICKSAND

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 11:22 PM

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

My actual argument is below (XOXO), but I wanted to touch on this quote, cuz it's a whole other can of worms: to "know" something about art is to admire the technical achievement, the subtleties, to be a scholar of it.

Art is not merely pictures hanging on a museum wall-- I'll watch a film like "2001" or "The Sixth Sense" and admire the subtleties, the nuances, the use of color, of camera angles to set mood, of the way the director places objects or people in a scene. This is because I love the art form, but also because I'm a huge nerd. Let's focus on the former.

A film like, say, "Van Helsing" has none of these things. The camera cuts for no reason, the costumes were designed by retarded chimpanzees, and character development is replaced with Stuff Blowing Up. So I told the nerd in me to take a damn nap, and I enjoyed the movie. I know what I like.

Most of America, it would seem, knows what it likes, too. But they don't appreciate the art, so if something with Critical Thinking, or some actual Thought, comes out, they go, "Huh?" and think they don't like it, because they never bothered to think about it. If that makes sense.

(XOXO) -- My actual point, that I'm working toward, however, is I disagree about it being Admiration of Ignorance. What it is, is Actual Ignorance. That, coupled with an entertainment industry focussing on the bottom line. They've only recently discovered (well, TV has only recently discovered) that if they pander to our most basic voyeuristic desires, they will have the #1 show on TV and make billions of dollars.

It is our responsibility to NOT watch "The Simple Life," to NOT watch "Joe Millionaire," and demand something that makes us think. Because THOSE tv shows will still be talked about in 5 years (as 'Firefly' will be), while in 5 years, no one will ever remember "Joe Millionaire" ever existed.

THAT, to me, is what art is about. And a tremendous number of Americans are uneducated as to what Intelligence looks like. And a tremendous number of Entertainment Execs don't give a f.

-Qs

p.s. What the frag is "A Canticle for Leibowitz?!"

QUICKSAND

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 11:31 PM

Feh. The short version of my arguement-- well, actually, an ALTERNATIVE to my arguement, is just simply this:

Some people are gonna watch dumb shows, and go see dumb movies. That is their right, and we can't change them; they can only change themselves.

It is OUR (Your?) job to go see/seek the intelligent art, film, television, literature... because THAT is what moves the medium along, adds to the art form, and has a lasting effect on both the medium itself, and pop culture. I saw people dancing like "Starsky & Hutch" the week after it came out, but now we've all already forgotten about it-- it's no longer funny, or timely.

Do you remmber Indiana Jones running from that boulder? THAT is timeless... because even though the story didn't take a Rhodes Scholar to understand, the makers told it in an intelligent way that respected our intelligence. Maybe not everyone got it when it came out ("Pulp Fiction," "Fight Club") ... but these, like Firefly, are what We Must Tell Others About... and then just hope for the best.

I wish I could write a post that was shorter than eighty paragraphs.

QUICKSAND

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 11:36 PM

See, now my brain is working. You bastards.

The above post, 2nd paragraph: I didn't mean, SEE bad movies/TV/whatever. We're all guilty of that. I admitted to seeing "Van Helsing" in the post before that.

I meant, like, ENJOY. See repeatedly. I thought "A.I" was freakin' TERRIBLE, but people bought that DVD because they really enjoyed it, not noticing the plot holes, character inconsistencies, or sheer illogic. I was amused by "Van Helsing" and all, but I cannot think of a reason I'd ever watch it again. Conversely, I'll watch Indiana Jones until the day I die.

Anyway, nothing we can do about those people. Except recommend 'Firefly.' I'm really done typing now.

GHOLA

Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:
I'll take that bet.

The problem is that anything that makes one Think Critically tends to get crapped on by the masses. "Dude, Firefly is stoopid," I'll often read or hear. "Sci-Fi and cows?! U R dum!"

We, the Critical Thinkers, are in the minority. Or at least, that's the way it feels to ME. Clever, thought provoking TV or film is low-rated, and makes little money, while the top-rated TV shows and movies are such clever, intellectual fare as "American Idol," and "Four Explosions and a CGI Funeral."

We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.

But we can URGE people in a certain direction: "I'm not driving you to McDonald's; how about Subway?" or, "Hey, there's this new movie called 'Serenity' coming out, and it's AWESOME."

I maintain that "Pulp Fiction" was slightly more intellectual entertainment, because you had to think about it, and once the Smart Folks explained it, it DID find a way into popular culture. Same with Buffy, or ... I dunno, Aspirin.

Unfortunately, "Enterprise" pays off right now, in the millions, to the Corporate Whores of the world. So we're screwed.

But thanks for the very, very good argument. Only one out of every 50 people I meet can even comprehend Critical Thinking, so maybe that's another reason to just try to lead by example. I dunno.

No offense or anything but I read that post as pure elitism. Particularly this comment "We, the educated, can never hope to take American Culture back, because we'd have to stop too often and explain things to those left behind.". I think it's quite arrogant to assume that we are the gifted few with the ability to use "Critical Thinking" where as the majority of America the ones that watch crappy reality TV are obviously stupid. I'm sure that are many Ivy League graduates who would list a reality show as one of their favorite TV shows. In fact if movies like Van Helsing or TV shows like Enterprise make a ton of money I don't mind that some people like them there are some reality shows (but not all) that I do absolutely hate (like "The Swan") but that's because I have problems with the way they treat real people. What's art and what isn't is purely in the eye of the beholder and if I oneday find that there's nothing I care to watch anymore I'll stop watching TV and movies.

RUE

Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:11 AM

I hate to sound like "The Life of Brian" ("Blessed are the cheesemakers." "The CHEESEMAKERS?" "Well, not Cheesemakers exactly, but men of Commerce ...")

I didn't mean to be taken quite literally by the quote "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." ... not art specifically ...

It was highlighting an attitude where people who haven't studied a subject feel free to trivialize it, worse ignore it, shut their brains off, stick their heads in the sand, because for them there is something honest about not liking it and therefore dismissing it. It is, in my opinion, a reverence for ignorance.

Of course everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Liking something just because it's fun is great. And important serious meaningful stuff can be no fun at all.

But to dismiss something vital from your world that you are ignorant about just because you don't like it, well ... I think it's a misguided American truism.

ANNIK

Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:

p.s. What the frag is "A Canticle for Leibowitz?!"

The book came out in 1960, by Walter M. Miller, Jr. I recently came across the original 20-something page short story that the first third of the book is based on, originally published in 1955 as "The First Canticle".

It's a marvelous post-apocalyptic story, opening in a future Utah, near a monastary of St. Liebowicz. In this future, average folks have destroyed books and learning as being part of what brought the atomic horror on their heads ... the monastery keeps secret knowledge hidden within it (books, blueprints, technical manuals). It is considered a 'good' thing to be a Simpleton ... in the world-at-large, learning and books are considered highly dangerous.

You can probably find both versions of the story (short or book-length) in a second-hand book shop quite easily ... I'd say this is one of the great pieces of 1950s SF.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

GUNHAND

Thursday, May 27, 2004 3:49 AM

Well I don't like Star Trek but that's just a matter of personal choice and I go out of my way not to dump on other people's likes and dislikes. So the whole premise of this thread is something I can't go along with.

Also I don't talk politics in public so I'll ride right on past that stuff, again it's all personal choice and all that, see above. Besides all politics are wrong in a subjective sense, hence pointless. Yeah that was humor, people should use it more.

The one thing that I can agree with 110% on this whole thing here is that A Canticle for Leibowitz is a great book and if y'all haven't read it ya probably should.

That's all.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

QUICKSAND

Friday, May 28, 2004 12:23 AM

Quote:
No offense or anything but I read that post as pure elitism.

I'm not offended, cuz I like a good arguement.

I wasn't saying (though I maybe, er, accidentally implied) that I'm better than people who watch that stuff because "they are dumb and I am smart." All sorts of people watch all sorts of things, and besides, there are plenty of people who are smarter than me... just none of them work for the Fox Network, is all.

I didn't mean to disrespect anyone for watching, say, Jerry Springer and loving it. But I'm disrespecing Jerry Springer because, DAMMIT man, you have this huge opportunity to make people think, to affect peoples LIVES... and you're showing me KKK moms. I mean, whatthefuh?

*I* feel disrespected when someone tells me Firefly is stupid because it has cows and a gas-powered 4-wheeler. To the people who make those arguments: How do we teach them anything, unless we raise our standards?

I'm not saying we should ban Jerry, but I would like to increase the number of shows that make me think to more than, say, 3.

MAUGWAI

Friday, May 28, 2004 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksand:

I didn't mean to disrespect anyone for watching, say, Jerry Springer and loving it. But I'm disrespecing Jerry Springer because, DAMMIT man, you have this huge opportunity to make people think, to affect peoples LIVES... and you're showing me KKK moms. I mean, whatthefuh?

*I* feel disrespected when someone tells me Firefly is stupid because it has cows and a gas-powered 4-wheeler. To the people who make those arguments: How do we teach them anything, unless we raise our standards?

I'm not saying we should ban Jerry, but I would like to increase the number of shows that make me think to more than, say, 3.

Then I guess it would really sadden you to know that Jerry Springer is HUGE in Europe. That's one of the reasons everybody hates Americans.

But I like what you said about raising our standards. As far as Enterprise goes, I think the writers realized their own shortcomings and raised their own standards this year. Several people have mentioned the improvements in the show over the season. Although I enjoyed the many episodes that seemed to revolve around Trip's bare chest, I am glad the show got some beefing up. But I am highly devoted to critical thinking, and I like Enterprise. Not every smart person is going to like the same thing.

But my point about raising standards is this. I spend all day with teenagers, most of whom have been told repeatedly how dumb they are. So they act dumb. They talk dumb. They talk about how dumb they are, and joke about how dumb the other people in the class are. You should see what happens when you tell them they're smart and mean it. They start acting smart - every single one of them. They just need someone to tell them they can do it, and they comply. So all those people who talk about kids today being stupid are full of crap. Kids today are as smart as they ever were. We just have to tell them they are.

So if we feed the public reality TV and tell them it's good, that's what they watch. If we feed them good TV and let them watch it, they will. Look at Buffy. It had a huge audience because it was considered cool to watch Buffy. We rise to the standards we are given.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

GHOULMAN

Monday, September 27, 2004 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
... oh and I don't want to sound like I'm dumping on those who say 'it's improving' but FRELL! ... do you normally wait through years of crap to get to the good? Has any good come yet? Will it?

Honestly. What sort of bizarre logic is that?

And for the love of mudville ... realize that this sort of TV (on various levels) keeps shows like Firefly off the air. After all... if the viewing SciFi fans will accept such rubbish than why the frell would a network pay for a high class production like Firefly? Or Angel? Or... are ya seeing a pattern here boys and girls?

*bump*

SOUTHERNSLAYER

Monday, September 27, 2004 8:25 PM

LOL. Well thats pathetic... bumping your own thread. Whats even worse though is that you are simply just trying to cause trouble. It's not clever Ghoulman and its not needed.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

GHOULMAN

Monday, September 27, 2004 8:29 PM

Thanks for adding to the embarrasing number of posts here that attack me for having an opinion.

Pathetic. Yes, yes it is.

So when I saw all the "save ENT" threads showing up I thought I'd bump this one. Sorry.

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