Western or Southern ?

POSTED BY: ELKA
UPDATED: Thursday, November 7, 2002 03:31
VIEWED: 12257
PAGE 1 of 1

ELKA

Sunday, November 3, 2002 2:09 AM

Maybe someone has brought this up before (probably), but, doesn't Firefly seem better called a Southern than a Western as far as that goes? I know that it is above all a Sci-fi show, but it just seems with all the allusion to the reconstruction of the South after the civil war, and the charactor types (where I am from in South Carolina, we've taken to calling Firefly 'Conway in Space') really ring a chord for Dixieland more than the Wild Wild West.
If you need proof of this, reference any scene in 'Shindig' or go thru all the episodes and count uses of the word 'reckon'.

Commander Elka
The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

THEGN

Sunday, November 3, 2002 2:33 AM

I think you've missed the point about the American West. The stories about the west are about Southern people, in general. Following the American War Between the States thousands of Southerners fled from the States that had traditionally defined the confederate south during the war. The Northern Army was not known for its kindness. In fact, many would argue that Sherman was America's first, and perhaps only, war criminal. Many Southern cities were burned to the ground, even after the War was over, and those who had fought in the Confederate Army were often hunted down like animals. Reconstruction ended black slavery in the south which was a good thing, but it also destroyed much of the culture and the spirit that had defined the Southern states. After the war, the Southern States were no longer consider "American," and in fact were forced to re-apply to the Union that they had fought and died to not be a part of. It was a cruel slap in the face by Northern bureaucracy, but it was more then that. It was an excuse to terrorize the south. The atrocities of Sherman, the burning of Atlanta and New Orleans were largely forgiven and even praised by the North because the Southern States were no longer considered American but hostile enemies.

Prior to the Civil War much of the West was largely unpopulated by people of European descent. So when people talk about the "Wild West" they are largely referring to people of mostly Southern American descent who left what was then civilization to flee from what could only have been called Northern American Tyranny.

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

ELKA

Sunday, November 3, 2002 2:51 AM

Your points were all very good. Now allow me to share a few of mine in reciprocation:
1) There is no reason to be rude.
2) In a war, people on the other side are
general considered 'enemies', and what with all the killing, 'hostile enemies'.
3) There isn't any reason to be rude, did I mention that?

Commander Elka,
The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

THEGN

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:07 AM

I wasn't being rude; I was explaining the historical premise that has been adopted by Firefly. The War Between the States began because of the inappropriate political bureaucracies on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line. Both sides may have been wrong.

But I'm not talking about politics here. I'm talking about the mindset that created the West. The Southern American Diaspora that occurred during Reconstruction, which is where much of the theme of Firefly comes from. There is more then one way to look at this story, that is true. And with some aspects of it, no matter which way you tell it, there's always someone who is going to think it's "rude." But in the end, when you shed away the twisted and convoluted finger-pointing politics that embodied that war, one often ignored aspect is all the displaced people, human beings, who ran from both real and perceived tyranny. And it is on that aspect that Firefly has been based.

But I apologies if I led you to believe I was in any way trying to justify the South in that war. It is simply one particular aspect of the war. And I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

ESME

Sunday, November 3, 2002 5:25 AM

I didn't find your post rude at all. On the contrary, it's nice to hear a more balanced view spoken (even though it's unpopular), because some people have may never have heard that side of it before! The Civil War was a scourge on the entire nation, with horrors on both sides. I grew up where the Confederates were always the good guys.
I love FF even more for this: Mal fought for the South, I mean the Independents...

GUNNER101

Sunday, November 3, 2002 7:31 AM

I agree it was a tad rude.

THEGN

Sunday, November 3, 2002 8:24 AM

Just out of curiosity, what was rude about it?

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Sunday, November 3, 2002 9:14 AM

I have nothing constructive to say except to weigh in on Thegn's side. We've disagreed about stuff before and while Thegn is very strong in his opinions(although the above post seemed to contain more facts than opinions), he's never been rude about them. Just my humble little opinion of course.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

NIGHTDRIFTER

Sunday, November 3, 2002 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Just out of curiosity, what was rude about it?

I saw nothing overtly or for that matter
covertly rude about your post.It reminded
me of many a college lecture. Being as I
am from New York with a Father from
North Carolina and a mother from Germany.
Also being married to a lass from South
Korea,I have a pretty good handle on
every form of rudeness known to mankind.
That wasn't it.

"Good, Bad, I'm the one with the gun"- Ash, Evil Dead III: Army of Darkness

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TECHBOY

Sunday, November 3, 2002 11:44 AM

I agree. I was thinking how Thegn's post could be taken as being rude. I don't agree with what was said about the southern states having to "re-apply". That was an initiative to reaffirm that they were part of the Union. I could be wrong, but I believe part of that was so new officials could be elected to the Congrass.

================================================
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-Simon Travaglia
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LIVINGIMPAIRED

Sunday, November 3, 2002 12:41 PM

No, actually, the Southern states DID have to re-apply. During the war, there were two schools of thought: it was possible to leave the union, and it was not possible to leave the union. Lincoln believed that once a state joined the union, it could never leave. In other words, even though the South had broken off, they were still apart of the United States, and when the war was over, everyone could just kiss and make up. The End. But some moron thought it would be a good idea to kill Lincoln, and people from the first school of thought took over. They thought that the South HAD left the Union, and since they lost, they had to reapply and rejoin. There were a bunch on conditions for re-entry, among them that their new state constitions must include clauses to the effect of "no slaves." This, of course, led to this bitter, nasty, vicious reconstruction period, which as we all know happened after the construction, which was so shotty that they had to reconstuct.

Who says you can't learn stuff from TV?

Oh, and I don't think there was anything rude in that post. It's not rude to have a different viewpoint.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

NONONSENSE

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:15 PM

Great history lesson. I never learned American history in such detail (I was born and raised in Spain). I enjoyed reading these threads. Thanks for the input.

PS: I don't think any of them were rude; they were all very informative.

DELVO

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:41 PM

Elka, accusing Thegn of rudeness for helpfully answering your question was rude.

Anyway, the things you mention in arguing that it's a Southern theme are not exclusive to the South; they are just as much Western as Southern. Actually a better way to put it might be "rural". The West and the South were (and to some extent still are) the most rural parts of the USA, with the Northeast being more urbanized and industrialized than either. And the setting in which the Firefly characters find themselves is the future's multiplanetary version of a rural region with little urbanization or industrialization, which they have in common with both Southerners and Westerners, not just one or the other.

DELVO

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:41 PM

ILOVEJAYNE

Monday, November 4, 2002 8:19 PM

The line between Southern and Western is thin and very stretchy. Take Texas, for example. I usually think of it as "out west", with the cattle trails and pioneers and such, but it was also a part of the Confederacy.

THEGN

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Techboy:
I agree. I was thinking how Thegn's post could be taken as being rude. I don't agree with what was said about the southern states having to "re-apply". That was an initiative to reaffirm that they were part of the Union. I could be wrong, but I believe part of that was so new officials could be elected to the Congrass.

Well, that's the "politically correct" way of looking at it.

And it was with language just like that that the North justified the atrocities they committed in the South. But that was long time ago, and the North certainly didn't have a monopoly on atrocities.

I appreciate everyone's comments about my alleged rudeness.

I'm still not sure why my comments seemed rude, but I do apologies if I come across that way to you. It was unintentional I assure you.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

RHEA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:00 PM

Double post - see below

RHEA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:00 PM

To say outright that the West was primarily settled by displaced Southerners is simply inaccurate.

There were too many countries who widely settled the west (France, Spain and Mexico, for example) -not to mention settlers from all over the existing states - to simply make such a sweeping generalization.

However, I agree that Firefly is about being on the losing side of a war, and how that affects Mal and company.

And BTW, I don't think Thegn's post was the least bit rude - just passionate.

ELKA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 10:17 PM

Apology accepted and please accept mine, but just let me get in a feeww more comments

The mass exodus to the West, with Wagon Trains and Donner Parties, etc, didn't really occur until after the reconstruction period, and it wasn't caused by fleeing southerners, it was about gold. Although some people did begin to migrate west after the civil war, it was primarily men, not families or large groups.

As for all the atrocities commited by the North upon the South, the South upon their slaves, etc, it is important to remember when thinking of this as a fight about human rights or their denial, that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery, it was about state's individual rights, taxes, and labour costs.

But, to go Back to the beginning, ALL i was trying to say was that in the West as we think of it (all this studd below references 'Shindig'):

1)men didn't get all dressed up and pretified in frock coats and scarfy neck ties.
2)women didn't wear fancy ruffly dresses with hoop skirts and get all gussied.
3) slaves...slave labor...mentioned a lot in that episode.
4) they didn't have Catillions with ornate ballrooms, ladies and gentleman dressed up in all their finery, and buffet tables with 'some kinda hot cheese' on them.

Commander Elka
The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

RHEA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELKA:
But, to go Back to the beginning, ALL i was trying to say was that in the West as we think of it (all this studd below references 'Shindig'):

1)men didn't get all dressed up and pretified in frock coats and scarfy neck ties.
2)women didn't wear fancy ruffly dresses with hoop skirts and get all gussied.
3) slaves...slave labor...mentioned a lot in that episode.
4) they didn't have Catillions with ornate ballrooms, ladies and gentleman dressed up in all their finery, and buffet tables with 'some kinda hot cheese' on them.

I'm not so sure about that - perhaps not in Tombstone

, but in San Francisco or other larger cities they most certainly did (the point about slaves excepted, naturally).

And since I live in the San Francisco Bay area, I kind of know what I'm talking about. Some of the fancier homes in the City date back to that era (gold rush, anyway). Just visit Nob Hill some time.

Again, if you take the analogy too far, it'll break down. Firefly isn't the Old West, it's in the future.

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELKA:
But, to go Back to the beginning, ALL i was trying to say was that in the West as we think of it (all this studd below references 'Shindig'):

1)men didn't get all dressed up and pretified in frock coats and scarfy neck ties.
2)women didn't wear fancy ruffly dresses with hoop skirts and get all gussied.
3) slaves...slave labor...mentioned a lot in that episode.
4) they didn't have Catillions with ornate ballrooms, ladies and gentleman dressed up in all their finery, and buffet tables with 'some kinda hot cheese' on them.

The planet in that episode was not supposed to represent the west. It was the east. So you see? Not all the planets Serentiy goes to are one-horse planets. In fact, that planet even had flying cars. Neato!

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

ESME

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 1:14 AM

Oh yes, and we Texans definately consider ourselves southern.

LOONYTOON

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 2:17 AM

Sorry, elka, your wrong. The major western goldrush was in 1848-9, with the Alaskan rushes happening in 1896 and `98, but the west was already settled by then.

LOONYTOON

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 2:18 AM

Sorry, elka, your wrong. The major western goldrush was in 1848-9, with the Alaskan rushes happening in 1896 and `98, but the west was already settled by then.

TRUK

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea:

Again, if you take the analogy too far, it'll break down. Firefly isn't the Old West, it's in the future.

I agree...it's metaphorical, not about replicating the Old West in outer space. The series definitely borrows from the Western genre, especially the idea that many Civil War vets became gunfighters, bounty hunters and plain criminals after the terrible conflict (See James gang for historical reference). Other vets headed West for adventure and wealth (see Earps) after the war.

If Persephone was settled some 200-500 years ago (after Earth was used up), I would think that, over time, a culture started, changed, evolved, devolved into what appeared in Shindig. That includes the customs (fencing duel), fashion (hoop skirts), laws, etc.

If you think about it, the society on some of these frontier planets are more than likely a lot older than the United States.

TRUK

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELKA:
...that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery, it was about state's individual rights, taxes, and labour costs.

Not what I learned in college history but, of course, I'm sure there are different schools of thought in California & South Carolina....

CARDIE

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:43 AM

Originally posted by truk:

Quote:

Not what I learned in college history but, of course, I'm sure there are different schools of thought in California & South Carolina....

I'm from South Carolina, too, but not a native, and it's not so much the schools as people's parents, grandparents, and half the writers of letters to the editor columns that keep the "not really about slavery" line going, just as it keeps the Confederate flag on the State House grounds.

Cardie

DEATHSTALKER

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 4:08 AM

Now that post was just down right rude. There is no need to bash the south. Yes, we may be backward..yes our schools may not be the best. But the ONE thing every southern child knows is the civil war. Now I can see how you could see a southern point of view on the war as biased. So I'm not going to give you a southerns point of view:
Argue with this-

Quote from Ordeal By Fire The Civil War Vol. 2 by James M. Mcpherson prof of American History Princeton University P. 186.

"Soliders on both sides used the word liberty more than any other to express what they fought for. But no Confederates and few Union soliders meant at first liberty for the Slaves....Confederates insisted they were definding the right and liberty to own slaves.. In 1861-1862 most(union) believed that they had enlisted to preserve the union not to free the slaves.

ELKA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 4:11 AM

this is a petty and small point but since everyone else is making them, i am not from the South. I was raised and educated in New York, just about as yankee as you can get.

The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

DEATHSTALKER

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 4:14 AM

Also not from the south..born and raised in Connecticut, educated in northern school, yankee colleges..can't get more yankee than me.

ELKA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 4:17 AM

Yes, you can, because i'm more yankee than you...so... neeiner neeiner neeiner !!

The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

DEATHSTALKER

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 4:19 AM

well

DELVO

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 1:06 PM

Well, I now live in the only Northern state that had a major Civil War battle, and I just moved here from the Southernest of the Southern states (rural central Florida) earlier this year, and I grew up and have lived in three different parts of the most schizophrenic state (Missouri)... so...

When you look at the fact that the issue of slavery nearly prevented the 13 colonies from getting together in the first place... and the fact that slavery kept coming up in every Congressional session and every public debate for the first several decades... and the fact that the stress and strain over slavery was already tearing at the country so much by 1820 that they had to admit a new Northern state (Maine) and a new "Southern" state (Missouri, theoretically) at the same time as a compromise... and the Confederate Vice President's claim that the CSA was a nation founded on the principle that the Negro would never be equal to the white man... and the gaggle of quotes from prominent Northerners enraged by things like that... the conclusion that it was about slavery gets pretty hard no to reach. Even those who try to make it sound like it wasn't can't help but accidentally reveal that slavery was at the base of every other issue they say it was about anyway. A serious reporting of the history can't help but keep coming back to slavery over and over again. If they say it was about state's rights, the right in question was the right to enslave people. If they say it was about economy, the economy in question was a slave economy. If they say it was about culture and way of life, the culture and way of life in question were funded by a slave economy. I know that in life many things are more complicated than they first appear, but when you TRY to find a way around the obvious and it just keeps coming back and smacking you in the head, you gotta just go with it...

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:02 PM

Well, I think we all agree that slavery was a major issue in the war. I just think that we should also recognize that is was not the only reason. It was far more complicated than just slavery.

________________

She has parts that keep growing after they're detached. She irons her jeans! She's evilllllll!

ELKA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 5:32 PM

alright, since Deathstalker is the ONLY person to get this:

THE POST IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY. STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY ALEADY. LAUGH. It's wasn't ever SUPPOSED to be taken seriously. I mean, maybe a college graduate & a history grade student living in South Carolia, with our 'different text books and all' (because of course all writings on the subject, even the ones from Princeton, MUST have come from South Carolina) are the only ones to understand this, but Firefly...is sort of funny (shhh...don't tell anyone). So you'd think fans of the show would have more of a sense of humor but I guess all of you are from Canada or something (no offense to Canadians, I mean, I am not out to just biased bash the place a person lives, I wouldn't do that even if you guys don't have a problem with it). But this is getting out of hand....just a little bit. Even when I make ANOTHER post choke full of funny references, I get a bunch of posts filled with nitpicking little criticims and I'm told that I am the one taking things too serious...Anyway, anyone who can't go back, and read those posts I made, and realize that they are supposed to be amusing, can go to the ACLU or the NAACP chat room or something and argue about the Civil War some more (also, South Carolina was the ONLY state to participate in it...golly I didn't know that, thanks for telling me. It must be those different text books we have down here, and in New York, where I went to school). I think a few people got the humor, and if they didn't, they were still very polite and didn't get into mudslinging. Otherwise, how about everybody else lighten up?

TRUK

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 7:40 PM

What mudslinging are you referring to?

In one of your posts, you asserted that The Civil War wasn't about slavery...was that supposed to be funny too? Many historians attack this viewpoint as propaganda propagated by leaders of the South in the hopes of rationalizing secession & romanticizing the war. Other historians disgaree. Nothing offensive or rude about it, if you ask me.

Really, I don't think you should assume ownership of the thread just because you started it. It took on a life of its own which I found pretty interesting.

BTW, sorry, I missed your attempt at humor in your original post. But, by asking us to continue this thread in the ACLU or NAACP chat room is downright rude. Oh right, that's another one of your attempts at humor. Missed again...

Actually, I kinda think that you are the one that needs to lighten up. I mean, what's wrong with discussing The Civil War? It gives some of us a chance to flex some brain muscle & show others how much we think we know. Maybe you're offended by the fact that no one thinks you're funny?

RHEA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by truk:
What mudslinging are you referring to?

Agreed. All I see is a discussion. Some serious, some not so. Everyone doesn't have to agree with you, Elka. If you don't want people to discuss what you post, what the heck are you doing at a board devoted to discussion in the first place?

If I were the originator of this thread, I would count myself lucky that people were interested enough in the topic to reply in the first place! Once you start them, threads have a tendency to take on a life of their own - it's just the way of things.

DEATHSTALKER

Thursday, November 7, 2002 1:09 AM

That is the only point I was trying to make. Not that the civil war was not about slavery..it was an issue just not the ONLY issue.

DEATHSTALKER

Thursday, November 7, 2002 1:15 AM

Quote:
Maybe you're offended by the fact that no one thinks you're funny?

I think Elka has a dry sense of humor that not everyone get's..I find her funny..but that's just me.

EVANS

Thursday, November 7, 2002 3:31 AM

Western or Southern? American Frontier-ern. And, apparently, American broadcast TV-ern.

m.