Rewriting Shindig
POSTED BY: DMI
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:25
VIEWED: 21018
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I want to start out by saying that I love Firefly and Serenity and I'm a huge Browncoat. I don't want it to seem as though I'm nit-picking simply because we've only got a few episodes and I know I tend to watch them over and over again. If anything I think that attests to the quality of this show. However, with that said, I have always felt a little weird about the episode "Shindig." I like it well enough and even though it is different from other episodes what with the ball and the sword fight and all, something never sat right with me.
As a watched it with my girlfriend recently, both of us are creative writing majors at FSU and, we started talking about it and I think I figured it out. The problems, no offense to Espenson whose obviously made it farther in the industry than I have, are in the writing.
I typed this all up and it was way too long so this is me condensing it.
Problems with Shindig:
1)Subplot between Capt and Kaylee isn't sufficiently resolved with him buying her a dress and afterward is just dropped
2)Sir Warrick and the old man who comes to Kaylee's rescue are very similar characters that crowd the set
3)The two above reasons along with a scattering of scenes about what the crew is doing back home make the plot seem scattered
4)(This one is just a minor hole) The Captain wouldn't walk away from making a deal with Warrick to dance with Inara and piss off her date. The job always comes first with him.
I think I have a solution that would make the entire episode flow better, tightening the narrative and strengthen the Kaylee subplot.
1) The capt insults Kaylee in a way that not only implies she can't dress up fancy but that her job is only as a mechanic and isn't a real part of the business.
2)Combine Sir Warrick and the old man into one character. They blend together a little already because they both have a mild distaste for the snooty super-rich around them, but the old man is more likable because he saves Kaylee and has better lines. This way Kaylee is the one who actually makes the contact for the deal and is playing a crucial role in the business while Mal is off goofing around with Inara. Plus (and Espenson couldn't have known this) the old man just came off as a stronger and better character than the fat guy with the sash. This would also plug the plot hole of number four listed above because Mal wouldn't be abandoning his work.
I think this would do it without having to cut any of the great scenes back at Firefly, particularly River interacting with Badger and the post-sex scene between Wash and Zoey. Thats all great classic stuff and if something had to be cut or shortened, I'd vote for the poker game.
-e;'>){kind=avatar}
A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
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I dunno. If I were to rewrite that episode, my first concern would be Cardboard!Ath. Now that was some unimaginative writing.
Instead of making him plain stupid-bad, I'd let him stay charming, intelligent and sort of interesting. His conflict with Mal could be more involved, instead of Ath insulting Inara, maybe he guesses that Mal doesn't really belong at that party, Mal insults Ath because he's rich and Alliance, Ath insults the Independents because he lost family in the war, Mal hits him, Inara is in the middle of the mess and - tadaa, duel without a cardboard character.
If Ath isn't a completely moronic villain during the duel, it would give additional depth to Inara distracting him to save Mal. And instead of hurling insults at Inara, Ath could prophesy that a browncoat like Mal would only end up hurting her - a foreshadowing to HOG.
Just... something better than they gave us there.
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1) The capt insults Kaylee in a way that not only implies she can't dress up fancy but that her job is only as a mechanic and isn't a real part of the business.
But her being the mechanic is her part of the business. Where is the separation and how would it be an insult? Kaylee isn't really involved in the shady dealings aspect, she keeps Serenity running or assists with technical things.
And it would be strange to make Kaylee the contact for the job with Warrick, when they are only at the party because Badger thinks Mal would blend in there.
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Yea, Ath was a lame villian but I blame that in part on the guys acting. My point with Kaylee being the contact is that it sort of happens on accident. The old guy still comes to her rescue it just so happens he's the guy they're there to meet. What I was trying to do with that was cut unnecessary characters. As for Kaylee only being a mechanic, it seems to me that one of the points of the first season was that slowly everyone gets more involved in the business. Simon impersonates a buyer when they get to Canton, Inara helps dupe Yosafbrig in "Trash" and wants to help sell the stolen goods later on and even gets the crew a job in HOG, Book helps with the cattle and to bust out Mal from Niska and by the movie River is helping out with jobs.
-e
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Originally posted by DMI:
The old guy still comes to her rescue it just so happens he's the guy they're there to meet.
I REALLY hate to point this out, but, the guy that saves kaylee from Banning, isn't Harrow, Harrow's rounder, the older gentleman that saves kaylee looks like he's a sack of skin filled with bones.
no reponse required,
Fe'nos Tol
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Quote:
Originally posted by jossisagod:Quote:
Originally posted by DMI:
The old guy still comes to her rescue it just so happens he's the guy they're there to meet.
I REALLY hate to point this out, but, the guy that saves kaylee from Banning, isn't Harrow, Harrow's rounder, the older gentleman that saves kaylee looks like he's a sack of skin filled with bones.
You are so brilliant I could cry.
-e
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*Cough*
I think that was kind of DMI's point, there doesn't need to be two gentlemen.
And I agree, somewhat, combining them would make a stronger minor character and make it easier to follow, rather than the two things happening at the same time... Although one of the "aw, adorable!" parts of the episode is Kaylee with all the boys gathered around her to hear her mechanical know-how. And I'm not sure how the duel challenge punching business could occur with her stealing the scene that way. I would choose to keep both in the episode, which kind of necessitates two gentlemen. Unless you were to somehow work everything in to one conversation.
But I do definitely agree with Mal going off to dance with Inara and snubbing both Atherton and Harrow. The dance should probably happen before he makes the contact. Then when Inara and Atherton go to greet Harrow, and Mal's there, it's social obligation (and possibly spite on Atherton's part) until civility jumps out the window.
And Atherton IS kind of one-dimensional...
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Thanks bytemite.
I think you could keep Kaylee talking to the boys in the episode and still have everything work out. Mal asks Inara to dance and pisses off Ath while Kaylee interacts with the old man and the boys and when Mal punches Ath out and interrupts the party, Kaylee and the old guy come over and ta-da! I think its do able.
As for Ath, they can't all be winners. I'll have to think a little more about how to make him a better character.
-e
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMI:
As for Kaylee only being a mechanic, it seems to me that one of the points of the first season was that slowly everyone gets more involved in the business. Simon impersonates a buyer when they get to Canton, Inara helps dupe Yosafbrig in "Trash" and wants to help sell the stolen goods later on and even gets the crew a job in HOG, Book helps with the cattle and to bust out Mal from Niska and by the movie River is helping out with jobs.
-e
But the thing is, River, Simon, Book and Inara are outsiders of a sort. The first three because they only arrive in the pilot eppy, Inara because she is a paying passenger. They do not have defined jobs on the ship, aside from Simon's. Simon and River help out with the "business" because they have special skills and because there is only so much doctoring Simon can do. Book is merely accompanying Mal on the cattle job, so he is never actually part of a heist. He just watches, or assists in an emergency. And Inara's little stint was hardly the beginning of a habit and more likely something personal - because it was Saffron.
Kaylee is a part of every job already through her care for Serenity and technical details. I don't see the "only the mechanic" angle you are going for. Do you think her job means less than the contact with clients and other criminals? Mal, Zoe and Jayne do the business. Everyone else is support or passenger.
Trying to pull Kaylee into the business angle doesn't really make much sense because she has a job already. And she's not really a tough and scary person. If there is a job where her expertise would help, I'm sure they would bring her along.
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Its not an angle I believe. I think Kaylee has an obvious role in the ship's business, but Mal might mention it when he is mad at her to heighten the tension between them. Maybe it isn't needed and insulting her appearance and lower class status is all that is needed, but I do think that Wash experiences this need to be a greater part of the business in the pilot Serenity when Jayne insults "the risky sittin'" he did and in War Stories when he insists on going on the deal with Mal. I think Mal could say as little as "...you'd be like a sheep walking on its hind legs. You keep to the engine room, that's what I pay you for."
I really hope I didn't offend you. I wasn't trying to imply that Kaylee doesn't do enough in the show.
-e
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DMI.
Interesting points. I never really felt Shindig had those problems you mention, but now you've highlighted them I see how it can be bothersome to folk. My only gripe with Shindig is that there is not nearly enough interaction between Mal and Inara, especailly as they are alone at one point, and without the crew to pry aswell! Missed opportunity. I'd have settled for another couple of scenes between them easy!
Y'know looking back on it - they should have kissed in this episode.
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Originally posted by DMI:
Its not an angle I believe. I think Kaylee has an obvious role in the ship's business, but Mal might mention it when he is mad at her to heighten the tension between them.
I just think it would be out of character for Mal to attack her on such a level. An impatient rebuff of her fashion-ambitions fits logically into his complicated relationship with The Wealthy. There is no logical basis for Mal to pretend that Kaylee's job isn't extremely important to his business.
In other words, there is no motivation for him to belittle her professionally.
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Maybe it isn't needed and insulting her appearance and lower class status is all that is needed, but I do think that Wash experiences this need to be a greater part of the business in the pilot Serenity when Jayne insults "the risky sittin'" he did and in War Stories when he insists on going on the deal with Mal.
Wash's case is different, some of it is rooted in his relationship with Zoe, some in it just being true: Wash is as legally culpable as Mal and Zoe, and Jayne was belittling the risk Wash takes, even though it's as high as Jayne's.
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I think Mal could say as little as "...you'd be like a sheep walking on its hind legs. You keep to the engine room, that's what I pay you for."
But it doesn't fit into the context of the conversation there. Kaylee is going on about the pretty dresses and Inara's world. That has nothing to do with business, either way.
If Mal said it like that, it'd sound more like he's telling her that she can't have a private life outside slaving for him, which is even farther from the truth.
The only way you could connect that line to business would be if Kaylee somehow insisted on coming along on a job (But why would she?) and Mal telling her to forget it. And he would have every right to, because the engine work IS what he pays her for.
And don't think you were offending me!
How could you have? I just love discussing the show and enjoy the opportunity here!
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Guess I'm boring. I really like Shindig that way it is.
May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.
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it's interesting on the dvd com (for War stories? Train Job?) and in interviews Joss has talked about interference with the 'villains' to make them more 'villain-ey'.
True or not i see where folks are coming from re Ath - coz it's the same with Rance Burgess too. But i think Shindig is actually subtle in some ways - there are checks and balances and twists, with the minor characters, that HOG lacks for example.
As for the plot and structure - well it could be tighter but there are a lot of Austenpuns going on, and that's always the rule - give it up for the gag.
It's kind've a Trek ep too!
It's MAL that says (a lot) "The job comes first" but them's hidey words and he knows it too.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMI:
I want to start out by saying that I love Firefly and Serenity and I'm a huge Browncoat. I don't want it to seem as though I'm nit-picking simply because we've only got a few episodes and I know I tend to watch them over and over again. If anything I think that attests to the quality of this show. However, with that said, I have always felt a little weird about the episode "Shindig." I like it well enough and even though it is different from other episodes what with the ball and the sword fight and all, something never sat right with me.
As a watched it with my girlfriend recently, both of us are creative writing majors at FSU and, we started talking about it and I think I figured it out. The problems, no offense to Espenson whose obviously made it farther in the industry than I have, are in the writing.
I typed this all up and it was way too long so this is me condensing it.
Problems with Shindig:
1)Subplot between Capt and Kaylee isn't sufficiently resolved with him buying her a dress and afterward is just dropped
2)Sir Warrick and the old man who comes to Kaylee's rescue are very similar characters that crowd the set
3)The two above reasons along with a scattering of scenes about what the crew is doing back home make the plot seem scattered
4)(This one is just a minor hole) The Captain wouldn't walk away from making a deal with Warrick to dance with Inara and piss off her date. The job always comes first with him.
I think I have a solution that would make the entire episode flow better, tightening the narrative and strengthen the Kaylee subplot.
1) The capt insults Kaylee in a way that not only implies she can't dress up fancy but that her job is only as a mechanic and isn't a real part of the business.
2)Combine Sir Warrick and the old man into one character. They blend together a little already because they both have a mild distaste for the snooty super-rich around them, but the old man is more likable because he saves Kaylee and has better lines. This way Kaylee is the one who actually makes the contact for the deal and is playing a crucial role in the business while Mal is off goofing around with Inara. Plus (and Espenson couldn't have known this) the old man just came off as a stronger and better character than the fat guy with the sash. This would also plug the plot hole of number four listed above because Mal wouldn't be abandoning his work.
I think this would do it without having to cut any of the great scenes back at Firefly, particularly River interacting with Badger and the post-sex scene between Wash and Zoey. Thats all great classic stuff and if something had to be cut or shortened, I'd vote for the poker game.
-e
A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
I disagree.
Your problem #1. Badger needs Mal specifically because of Mal's pretentious standing in society, which was the reason Badger was uppity in Pilot Serenity. Mal needs Kaylee for the fact that she will happily wear the frilly dress (available on short notice, opposed to Zoe's slinky type dress), and not cause a fight at the ball. Mal needs her, and she wins, therefore it is dropped. Mal admits in this way that Kaylee is inteed needed in exactly the way Mal had mistakenly said she would not be needed (wearing a dress like that). This means much more than mere words from Mal - he could not make it more plain or clear that he was very wrong. It would be rude of Kaylee to not accept it.
problem #2. No, they are different. The guy who saves Kaylee (formerly Dash Riprock) is not impressed with Banning, but Harrow fairl;y revels in his nobility and title, just is not impressed with Atherton. Harrow would not go to somebody's rescue. He only second's Mal because Mal messed up Atherton's makeup.
your problem #4. Mal di not walk away. The deal was not happening. Mal and Harrow were seeing eye level regarding lowlife so
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
your problem #4. Mal di not walk away. The deal was not happening. Mal and Harrow were seeing eye level regarding lowlife sociopaths, but Atherton's interruption was blocking the progress of negotiations. Mal's dance with Inara was not solely to ittitate Ath, but to do so to gain value in Harrow's eyes, and to lure Ath away friom Harrow - all towards the goal of The Job. Irritating Ath (and maybe Inara) was just gravy.
I'll disagree with that one a little. A considerabl part of Mal's reason for the dance likely had to do with the way Ath was gripping Inara's arm. We visibly see Mal reacting to that and coupled with his punch after the dance, I think we can safely conclude that Mal has some emotional stakes there that would inspire him to act a little irrational.
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Originally posted by wytchcroft:
But i think Shindig is actually subtle in some ways - there are checks and balances and twists, with the minor characters, that HOG lacks for example.
Very true! I love that small glimpse at Banning's character when the old geezer says "'Course your daddy tells me it takes the space of
a schoolboy's wink to get you out of it again." Now that's a loving father. Try imagine your father gossiping about you like that. What kind of emotionally abusive relationship is behind that? It certainly topples the old geezers heroic image for me that he would say that to Banning, no matter how bratty she was behaving. It's not all black and white, there. Which makes Atherton's portrayel all the more disappointing.
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Kaylee's a simple girl, with simple wants and desires. She likes strawberries, sex and engines. It's not a knock on our dear mechanic, the girl just can't help it. Buying her the dress was indeed all the Captain needed to do. Nothing buys byegones like cash, as Jayne says. Or in this case, frilly dance hall dresses. And also, Cap knows a good mechanic is worth a lot out in the black, maybe more than a good pilot. That was made clear when he fired Bester and hired Kaylee, on the spot. He'd never insult Kaylee by implying she was ONLY a mechanic.
As for the Captain dancing w/ Inara, I got no problem w/ that either. He likely feels the job is in hand, as all he really had to do was find Sir Warrick and establish who he was. Badger had already done most of the heavy lifting, so to say. Mal's obviously jealous of Inara's 'date', and wants to tweak the guy ( and Inara ) by running a little interference into their evening. It's classic Mal. 
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While I appreciate your desire to fix the "flaws" in SHINDIG, I'm not sure that they're all, y'know, flaws.
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1)Subplot between Capt and Kaylee isn't sufficiently resolved with him buying her a dress and afterward is just dropped
Arguably true, but this conflict is, at best, the C-story of the episode. It essentially serves to inject a little character drama early in the episode (which it does successfully). It also provides us with some entertaining scenes and illustrates character for both Kaylee and Mal (in this case, the fact that Mal can be thoughtless and abrasive but is still not a bad guy is pivotal to the plot).
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I'd argue that the Mal/Kaylee stuff may not necessarily BE a sub-plot requiring an arc of its own, with a solid conclusion.
2)Sir Warrick and the old man who comes to Kaylee's rescue are very similar characters that crowd the set
Mark Twain, as I like to call him, serves a number of important functions that he couldn't necessarily serve if he were Harrow, or if he didn't exist at all. Consider:
1) Kaylee talking to the handsome boys is a very different angle than Kaylee talking to a mix of handsome boys and an old man (and treating them all equally--this goes back to her interactions with Book from the pilot on).
2) If Harrow comes to her rescue, he becomes "chivalrous," which gives him and Mal a common bond that Esponson probably didn't want. It also clutters the relationship between Mal and Harrow with needless baggage.
3) Too much coincidence? Really, wouldn't some folk in the audience almost say "Is there anyone at this party who's NOT Harrow?"
4) Kaylee is never intended to be part of the negotiation. She's Mal's way through the door, and that's it. To have her more strongly involved complicates that storyline needlessly.
While I agree on the one hand that the character landscape is a bit cluttered (something Whedon and Co never shy away from), I think combining the characters would needlessly clutter the character and plot business and might make thing seem too "forced coincidental."
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3)The two above reasons along with a scattering of scenes about what the crew is doing back home make the plot seem scattered
You say too scattered; I say "not contrived." Different strokes.
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4)(This one is just a minor hole) The Captain wouldn't walk away from making a deal with Warrick to dance with Inara and piss off her date.
The job always comes first with him.
Except when it doesn't.
Which is surprisingly often, when you look at the series closely. Remember, Mal often says he never runs away from a fight. :)
Seriously, though, Mal is a character, which means he simulates humanity and is going to be somewhat inconstant. More to the point: he often does stupid things, especially when Inara is involved.
And, to some extent, isn't the fact that a bit of his focus is on Inara when it SHOULD be on the job part of the point of the episode?
On Atherton as a weak villain: I wouldn't call him a poor villain so much as a banal one... and that's right in keeping with Whedon's vision of the 'Verse. If you examine the series, most of the "bad guys" aren't The Operative or Niska. They're people who are marginally more corrupt or marginally less moral than our heroes.
What bother me about Ath is that his banality is portrayed as so glaring that it seems odd for Inara not to have noticed it before.
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Also this would require intentional meanness by Mal, which he would not do, not only to Kaylee, but not even to Jayne except for when Jayne specifically calls for it.
Mal is absolutely intentionally mean to everyone on the crew and a lot of people off. He may have regretted what he said to Kaylee but that doesn't mean he wasn't being intentional. He knows what he said and its his way of keeping everyone at arm's length.
It's a pleasure to see all the discussion this little imaginative jaunt has engendered. Stay shiny folks.
-e
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Very true! I love that small glimpse at Banning's character when the old geezer says "'Course your daddy tells me it takes the space of
a schoolboy's wink to get you out of it again." Now that's a loving father. Try imagine your father gossiping about you like that. What kind of emotionally abusive relationship is behind that? It certainly topples the old geezers heroic image for me that he would say that to Banning, no matter how bratty she was behaving. It's not all black and white, there. Which makes Atherton's portrayel all the more disappointing.
Huh? He was supposed to be her father? I didn't get that impression at all, only that he knows her father, and that she's spoiled rotten, and maybe deserves to be set down a little in her pride.
GWEK: a good point on how part of the episode is about where Mal's focus should be when it's on Inara.
But I still agree that he shouldn't have walked away in the middle of trying to make a deal. Or rather, that there should have been consequences from Harrow's side for having done that. I really do think someone of Harrow's social standing would have taken that as a snub. Not allowing yourself to become distracted when you're talking to someone is business etiquette, which I think Mal is aware of. We're never given any indication that Mal doesn't know how to sell himself or his ship when he wants to; quite the opposite, in fact.
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Originally posted by GWEK:
On Atherton as a weak villain: I wouldn't call him a poor villain so much as a banal one... and that's right in keeping with Whedon's vision of the 'Verse. If you examine the series, most of the "bad guys" aren't The Operative or Niska. They're people who are marginally more corrupt or marginally less moral than our heroes.
What bother me about Ath is that his banality is portrayed as so glaring that it seems odd for Inara not to have noticed it before.
Yes, that latter part is what chaves about it. His obvious unpleasantness contradicts Inara's good judgment. He's so over the top that the fight should be Inara's, but she ends up being so passive about it and her conversation with Mal on the subject is pushed to the background. If Atherton had a bit more depth or charm, her hesitancy would be more understandable. Or change the shuttle scene, to remove the implication that Inara actually likes Atherton and make it a matter of professional pride for her. But take away the contradiction!! (Dammit!)
Rance Burgess is similarly bad, but at least he has an egde of cruelty and real danger about him. Ath is a foregone conclusion and only the examination of the Mal/Inara conflict redeems his use at all.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Very true! I love that small glimpse at Banning's character when the old geezer says "'Course your daddy tells me it takes the space of
a schoolboy's wink to get you out of it again." Now that's a loving father. Try imagine your father gossiping about you like that. What kind of emotionally abusive relationship is behind that? It certainly topples the old geezers heroic image for me that he would say that to Banning, no matter how bratty she was behaving. It's not all black and white, there. Which makes Atherton's portrayel all the more disappointing.
Huh? He was supposed to be her father? I didn't get that impression at all, only that he knows her father, and that she's spoiled rotten, and maybe deserves to be set down a little in her pride.
I never said he was her father. He references her father, implying that her father said such a thing about her, which leads me to the conclusion that Bannings father is one hell of a bad example.
She's not spoiled rotten, she's an unloved child (turned young adult) lashing out. Likely how she learned it at home.
The old geezer wasn't just telling her to back off, he was hitting her where it really hurts, which is kind of cruel.
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But I still agree that he shouldn't have walked away in the middle of trying to make a deal. Or rather, that there should have been consequences from Harrow's side for having done that. I really do think someone of Harrow's social standing would have taken that as a snub. Not allowing yourself to become distracted when you're talking to someone is business etiquette, which I think Mal is aware of. We're never given any indication that Mal doesn't know how to sell himself or his ship when he wants to; quite the opposite, in fact.
At that point, Harrow was far from convinced and Mal didn't have much by the way of arguments left. Taking a break at that point doesn't hurt him, much less so when he leaves Ath and Harrow to watch him dance with Inara - a hugely respectable person.
Following his impulse to separate Inara and Ath doesn't actually work against him, professionally, and I think he knows it.
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GWEK: a good point on how part of the episode is about where Mal's focus should be when it's on Inara.
But I still agree that he shouldn't have walked away in the middle of trying to make a deal. Or rather, that there should have been consequences from Harrow's side for having done that. I really do think someone of Harrow's social standing would have taken that as a snub. Not allowing yourself to become distracted when you're talking to someone is business etiquette, which I think Mal is aware of. We're never given any indication that Mal doesn't know how to sell himself or his ship when he wants to; quite the opposite, in fact.
I don't entirely disagree, although I'm not sure exactly how seriously Harrow takes anything. He seems like he's bored and wants to be entertained. It's quite possible he WOULD have felt snubbed by Mal if Mal hadn't "entertained" him.
And Mal, after all, is a graduate of the Han Solo School of Action Without Thought.
My point, I guess, is that I can see your point, but don't think it's a particularly glaring moment nonetheless.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
On Atherton as a weak villain: I wouldn't call him a poor villain so much as a banal one... and that's right in keeping with Whedon's vision of the 'Verse. If you examine the series, most of the "bad guys" aren't The Operative or Niska. They're people who are marginally more corrupt or marginally less moral than our heroes.
What bother me about Ath is that his banality is portrayed as so glaring that it seems odd for Inara not to have noticed it before.
Yes, that latter part is what chaves about it. His obvious unpleasantness contradicts Inara's good judgment. He's so over the top that the fight should be Inara's, but she ends up being so passive about it and her conversation with Mal on the subject is pushed to the background. If Atherton had a bit more depth or charm, her hesitancy would be more understandable. Or change the shuttle scene, to remove the implication that Inara actually likes Atherton and make it a matter of professional pride for her. But take away the contradiction!! (Dammit!)
Rance Burgess is similarly bad, but at least he has an egde of cruelty and real danger about him. Ath is a foregone conclusion and only the examination of the Mal/Inara conflict redeems his use at all.
The Atherton issue could have been fixed fairly easily, by implying that maybe they haven't seen each other for a year or something. A year can change someone fairly significantly, depending on the events. Maybe even "I'm sorry I haven't been able to see you since your father died" or something (and imply that now the weight of the family business is on his shoulders).
While I agree this is probably the most troubling aspect of the episode, it could have been fixed with maybe 5 lines if dialogue.
*****
Not to thread-jack, but we explored Atherton a little over at www.stillflying.net, during our second season. Check out episodes 2x08 and 2x09.
www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."
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By the way, to DMI: I really don't mean to say that you shouldn't re-write the ep, or that you shouldn't re-write to your specs, but keep this in mind: when an experienced writer appears to make "rookiee mistakes" there are often reasons (and sometimes, it's just that something didn't work, or that the director mucked with things), so worth exploring WHY those "failings" might have occurred.
Don't know if you're aware, but there was originally a completely different teaser for the episode (it involved Mal and Inara in a park or forest; I think he shoots a raccoon). Might be worth tracking down the script for that to see if the change had impact on the rest of the episode.
www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."
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Ah. I see what you mean now. I never really thought about it that way. Usually when someone's spoiled, it's because their parents indulge them too much, and because she was acting snobbish that's what I assumed she was, despite the insult.
Of course, it could be the old man is exaggerating what her father has said about her, or twisting it, but that has less evidence.
Mal makes a number of social faux pas in the scene when Atherton and Inara approach. You may be right, but I don't think the way he reacts to Atherton and steps between the two would do much to further convince Harrow that he's respectable.
Except that, perhaps, Atherton's personality is well known to the community, and maybe taking an irrational dislike to him is considered a sign of good character?
Of course, that's not something Mal would be aware of, so the question is, is it in-character for him to risk the job on account of Inara?
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Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
While I agree this is probably the most troubling aspect of the episode, it could have been fixed with maybe 5 lines if dialogue.
So true, so painfully true.
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What’s worst than being an asshole? Being an asshole that’s right ( as to say about Malcolm Reynolds).
I see your opinions for arguments sake DMI but Malcolm Reynolds is a captain that knows his opinions and commands won’t always be the popular ones. Does that make him an Ahole? Who of us haven’t had a boss that’s been one of those now and then? Even when talking off the top of his head doesn’t mean that what Malcolm says will be viewed with favor by every crewmember.
The truth about captain Reynolds bite is that his crew forgive him for it anyway, hence I don’t have a problem with Kaylee just forgiving Mal about his rude remark about walking around dressed like a sheep in the engine room. He did say in the pilot episode that he was a “Mean old man.”
With the exception of Zoe most everyone on Serenity has felt the sting of the captains tongue. They may be aggravated momentarily then get on with what they are supposed to do.
Also I don’t have a problem with Sir Warrick and the older gentleman that comes to Kaylee’s rescue at the party. They are just filler characters and they complete their purpose.
The only thing that I am in a bit of a spot with in the SHINDIG episode was where Atherton Wing, having Mal at blades end gets distracted by Inara. The captain seizes this distraction and turns the tide on his opponent. I don’t see that as a fair duel. Malcolm is clearly beaten and if it weren’t for the persuasion of the companion would have been run through the heart.
Just a minor detail, one that bothered me for a while but still a great episode!
Z
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Oh, I'm sure Zoe's felt it too, and she's probably decked him for it.
Yeah, the duel! The way it ends bothers me too, because it makes Inara submissive and turns her into one of those damsels willing to sacrifice herself and her freedom to stop her evil love interest.
I'd like to be clear that I never had any problem with the Kaylee and Mal storyline in this episode... This episode is actually one that I really like, and I've surprised myself with agreeing how many flaws there are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ah. I see what you mean now. I never really thought about it that way. Usually when someone's spoiled, it's because their parents indulge them too much, and because she was acting snobbish that's what I assumed she was, despite the insult.
I don't think children usually lash out at others because they are indulged too much, usually that indulgence is a direct accomplice of neglect, lack of communication or insecurity in the parents. Is my theory from watching some "spoiled" children. They're usually deeply unhappy.
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Of course, it could be the old man is exaggerating what her father has said about her, or twisting it, but that has less evidence.
Could be, but if he was twisting the words and Bannings father is actually totally happy about his daughter's busy sex life, she wouldn't walk off like that. He could also just have used "people" instead of "your daddy". It seems like a very deliberate jibe, the way he says it.
Think about it, if your relationship with your father is fine the insult "You daddy says you're a slut" wouldn't make you walk off like that. "People say you're a slut" might be more effective to humiliate you, but that's not the angle Harrow chooses.
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Mal makes a number of social faux pas in the scene when Atherton and Inara approach. You may be right, but I don't think the way he reacts to Atherton and steps between the two would do much to further convince Harrow that he's respectable.
Mal doesn't step between them until he has outside motivation (Ath's hand tightening on Inara's arm) but his faux-ingratiating manner before that ("I-nara!") may be Mal's idea of friendly small-talk - irritate Inara while implying they're good acquaintences to Harrow. He welcomes the respectability-enhancer, until he interrupts his own negotiations for the dance to get Inara away from Ath.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Don't know if you're aware, but there was originally a completely different teaser for the episode (it involved Mal and Inara in a park or forest; I think he shoots a raccoon). Might be worth tracking down the script for that to see if the change had impact on the rest of the episode.
That sounds really interesting. I'll have to track it down. I really like the teaser at the beginning of this episode, but it's fairly interchangeable and could start just about any episode.
-e
A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
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And I thought her walking away was just snooty upper-class indignance at such an appallingly base and lewd (in their relative experience) insult. Her friends walk away in a huff too.
I like your interpretation too, not sure which is more likely. And you're right, the possibility does steal some of the happy from that scene. :(
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Bytemite, now that you’ve mentioned it ( and I’ve thought about it more) I can think of 2 different occasions where Mal voices a strong opinion opposite Zoey‘s. One being in the BDM when she ask him why they didn’t pick up the man after the bank heist & two in the Serenity series pilot when she mentions to him that they don’t have to deal with Patience, He says “ ……Yes we do!”. This after knocking something off of the bridge’s control counter.
The captain is in a position where tough choices can set a person on edge. That doesn’t mean that his crew don’t respect him or won’t follow orders, it only means that they may not like what they are being told.
Another thing, I do feel it is quite believable that Mal would walk off and dance with Inara while in the middle of making a deal with Warrick. Wouldn’t the best way to have someone become more interested in a proposition is to show that you are less interested in it? Sorry if that sounds confusing but I do think that it makes sense. Acting too interested in Sir Warrick’s illegal goings on may make the gentleman more suspicious me thinks. Best to show that it’s not a big deal. Besides why wouldn’t Mal jump at the chance to dance with Inara, he does love her you know…….(smile)
Z
PS: DMI just to let you know, great post for discussion. I really enjoy post like yours.
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And that's just the thing. Not only is he captain, but he takes being captain VERY seriously. I don't think that's there's anything that matters more to him than the welfare of his crew.
While sometimes thier lives may be put in jeopardy because of some of the jobs he chooses to take or decisions he makes, he takes those jobs and makes those decisions in order to keep his crew together, alive, and/or paid.
His wants are second in priority to the needs (and within reason, wants) of his crew. And they tend to always be needing money. Whenever something goes wrong, he tends to blame himself, thinks he's failed them. Example: Those Left Behind, after Ott's crew gets the jump on them. They get back on the ship Kaylee asks him how it went, and he just walks away because he can't face any of them.
So his doing anything deliberately or negligently that might screw up a job or opportunity doesn't seem in character to me.
But, I think I'll go rewatch the episode this thread in mind. See if thinking of Mal's conversation and offer to dance in the terms of her giving him some respectability makes that scene feel any different to me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMI:
That sounds really interesting. I'll have to track it down. I really like the teaser at the beginning of this episode, but it's fairly interchangeable and could start just about any episode.
Let's not be too quick to judge... While the teaser IS somewhat generic, Espenson knew what she was doing when she wrote it.
There are a few things about the teaser that make it uniquely suited to SHINDIG. For example, we get to see Inara in Mal's World (while most of the episode will be the opposite). Mal is established as a criminal with a conscience (doesn't like slavers) who behaves recklessly (stealing the money is a needless danger).
We further see that Inara is comfortable in Mal's world to a degree, which helps establish their relationship and the dramatic tension within this episode specifically.
While it SEEMS like a generic intro, most of the themes of the episode are already set by the time the teaser ends.
www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."
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This has really always been one of my least favorite episodes, mostly because of the way Inara acts for most of it. She's seen Atherton before, but didn't figure out he was a jerk? Even if he hid it well enough and she didn't think he was a jerk, he'd made the 'full time Companion' request that clearly made her uncomfortable every time it came up. Okay, so maybe being a little uncomfortable isn't enough to keep her from contracting with him again, even though I'd say it's a clear sign he's possessive as hell, and wanting a full time Companion in the first place would seem to imply he has trouble getting a woman he's not paying for as much as a fondness for Inara. I think there was a red flag in her head from the start, and she clearly had more than one option on Persephone...
...Where was I? Yes, maybe that wouldn't be enough to keep her from contracting with him initially, but to continue to be mostly meek and submissive irked me. Atherton insulted her long before Mal pushed him into it, saying that half the men wished she was on their arm, but all wished they were in her bed. She was clearly offended, tried to change the subject, and seemed to almost be getting angry...until he said she was extraordinary and all was smiles again. Well and good, I can kind of see that working, once. Then he insulted her again, in conflict with Mal (who she genuinely cares for, even if she's not sure how to deal with those feelings) and yelled at her to come along, as though she were a dog, and she went with him. She could talk tough to Mal about it being her choice and not his all she wants, but 'her choice' was a degrading one. She was clearly unhappy about the situation, but she didn't break off the contract. Yes, it could be argued that contracts shouldn't be broken, they're legally binding, but I'm sure there's something in guild rules to allow a Companion to break contract if they're being abused or mistreated in any way. If they have a black mark system they clearly don't want their girls to be with anyone who won't treat them well. When Atherton finally went all out and verbally spat on Inara's face, she gave him black mark status, but that was the first real backbone she showed the whole episode.
And that whole exchange of "get ready to starve, I'll make sure you never work again" and "that's not how it works, no Companion will contract with you ever again" was just awkward. It was a foolish threat for Atherton to make, and a 'never again' retort to a 'never again' threat was...gah. In a show full of good dialogue being delivered well, that bit was like a sore tooth for me.
I think it was mostly written as an excuse to have a fancy ball and a swordfight. The commentary even said something along the lines "I wanted to have a fancy ball and swordfight, something really old-fashioned in a future setting." It's an interesting idea, but I think ultimately it didn't work because that's not enough. It made much of the plot kind of shallow in order to make the ball, and especially the swordfight, happen.
If I rewrote this, it would probably come out to be a completely different episode in almost all respects. The only thing I'd make an effort to keep would be the exchange between Badger and River, because that was awesome.
[/sig]
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Productive rant, PheonixRose, and I completely agree.
All Shindig does for me is convince me that Joss had no idea where he was going with Inara's character. It was written mainly to create a platform for Mal to espouse his views on the misgivings of legalized prostitution in a Western context. It fails on so many levels, but especially in what we need to believe about the nature of Companioning. Begging the question: what are Companions? Are they Geisha, high class prostitutes, therapists, or courtesans that want long term relationships? Could it be that even with legitimacy, fame and fortune it still reduces people to objects? Joss can’t decide and neither can we.
All Inara's client "choices" are illogical except for the awkward virgin in Jaynestown. And even that’s not a necessity, but a privilege of the wealthy. The rest of them are narcissistic self indulgent egotistical misfits, including the newest one in the comics, Sanda, who beats the shit out of Mal. Why would an educated beautiful woman want to touch any of these people unless she’s desperate for money like most RL hookers or supporting a drug habit with three kids at home? It makes no sense and that’s why Joss turned her into a teacher. Trust me, that is REAL prostitution, right there! He finally got it right.
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Mmm, after watching it again, I'm just not feeling the dancing to increase respectability angle. Maybe the what's meant to be implied, but it just seems too abrupt for it to be something he was considering from when she came over. The request feels like it has an entirely emotional basis.
But that's just how I see it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Very true! I love that small glimpse at Banning's character when the old geezer says "'Course your daddy tells me it takes the space of
a schoolboy's wink to get you out of it again." Now that's a loving father. Try imagine your father gossiping about you like that. What kind of emotionally abusive relationship is behind that? It certainly topples the old geezers heroic image for me that he would say that to Banning, no matter how bratty she was behaving. It's not all black and white, there. Which makes Atherton's portrayel all the more disappointing.
Huh? He was supposed to be her father? I didn't get that impression at all, only that he knows her father, and that she's spoiled rotten, and maybe deserves to be set down a little in her pride.
I never said he was her father. He references her father, implying that her father said such a thing about her, which leads me to the conclusion that Bannings father is one hell of a bad example.
She's not spoiled rotten, she's an unloved child (turned young adult) lashing out. Likely how she learned it at home.
The old geezer wasn't just telling her to back off, he was hitting her where it really hurts, which is kind of cruel.
This is Murphy talking to Banning, after Banning is working over Kaylee (who Murphy views as a newcomer, who should be made to feel welcome, not ostracized), and showing off for her friends, while they also work on Kaylee with Banning's support and colusion. This may be seen as cruel, but this is Banning getting her own medicien, which may well be the best form of medicine she could get at this point in her life. She's already erred beyond reason by abusing Kaylee, she now gets comupance, embarrassment in front of her friends, and at the same time Murphy makes it clear that Kaylee should consider herself welcome to the social event of the season regardless of rude people like Banning. murphy made exactly the correct call. Anything less may have not hit Banning where it hurt, but also would have had not chance of teaching Banning a lesson - don't do it again, and this is what it feels like to be on the recieving end.
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But I still agree that he shouldn't have walked away in the middle of trying to make a deal. Or rather, that there should have been consequences from Harrow's side for having done that. I really do think someone of Harrow's social standing would have taken that as a snub. Not allowing yourself to become distracted when you're talking to someone is business etiquette, which I think Mal is aware of. We're never given any indication that Mal doesn't know how to sell himself or his ship when he wants to; quite the opposite, in fact.
At that point, Harrow was far from convinced and Mal didn't have much by the way of arguments left. Taking a break at that point doesn't hurt him, much less so when he leaves Ath and Harrow to watch him dance with Inara - a hugely respectable person.
Following his impulse to separate Inara and Ath doesn't actually work against him, professionally, and I think he knows it.
Bingo.
On another note: I understand the desire for some to condense characters until there are only a few. Joss does not shy away from multiple charaters. These are thieves, smugglers, avoiders from Alliance. Many of the episodes have few characters, which is right for shady dealings - the fewer the better.
This is the social event of the season. Compared to how many characters we see in other eps, I find it amazing that there are not gobs more characters in these scenes, at the dance. Imagine the multitudes of people we are ignoring here, which Inara, Mal and Kaylee are sure to be meeting merely by being present at such a vast gathering of humanity.
And regarding Kaylee's forgiveness of Mal: I suspect that Mal allowing her to interrogate the buffet table with the strawberries and cheese goe
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Anything less may have not hit Banning where it hurt, but also would have had not chance of teaching Banning a lesson - don't do it again, and this is what it feels like to be on the recieving end.
Chances are, Banning already knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end. You have to learn that stuff somewhere. The only lesson this will teach her is to be slightly less visible about where she lashes out and to despise Murphy. But what he does is really only one more spin in a circle of disrespect. He's not teaching her anything but to do exactly as she has been doing: use humiliation to solve a problem.
He's not much better than her in that regard, only he'd decided that Kaylee gets to receive his protection. He's nice to guests, so what. Anyone he has decided is useless is still fair game.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Productive rant, PheonixRose, and I completely agree.
All Shindig does for me is convince me that Joss had no idea where he was going with Inara's character. It was written mainly to create a platform for Mal to espouse his views on the misgivings of legalized prostitution in a Western context. It fails on so many levels, but especially in what we need to believe about the nature of Companioning. Begging the question: what are Companions? Are they Geisha, high class prostitutes, therapists, or courtesans that want long term relationships? Could it be that even with legitimacy, fame and fortune it still reduces people to objects? Joss can’t decide and neither can we.
All Inara's client "choices" are illogical except for the awkward virgin in Jaynestown. And even that’s not a necessity, but a privilege of the wealthy. The rest of them are narcissistic self indulgent egotistical misfits, including the newest one in the comics, Sanda, who beats the shit out of Mal. Why would an educated beautiful woman want to touch any of these people unless she’s desperate for money like most RL hookers or supporting a drug habit with three kids at home? It makes no sense and that’s why Joss turned her into a teacher. Trust me, that is REAL prostitution, right there! He finally got it right.
Nice rants, PheonixRose and Platonist.
While I can try to explain myself that Inara's clients were compromises she had to make in the rougher, culturally different Border world, it's still... yeah. You are totally right. And do not GET me started on the teacher thing. One of my pet peeves about the movie.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mmm, after watching it again, I'm just not feeling the dancing to increase respectability angle. Maybe the what's meant to be implied, but it just seems too abrupt for it to be something he was considering from when she came over. The request feels like it has an entirely emotional basis.
But that's just how I see it.
Haven't seen it for 4 days. But I recall that Ath came over to interrupt the deal Mal was trying to work with the reluctant Harrow. Respectability was not what Mal wnated, but to be trustworthy enough for Harrow to conduct illegal activities with. Mal wants the Ath itterruption to end -how better than to create Inara envy until Ath takes her away (at the same time leaving Harrow, who would then be available to Mal again) Mal might feel the diversion to remove Ath from Harrow could endear Harrow to Mal. Mal is also removing the likelihood that Ath will start to inquire about what Harrow and Mal were talking about, how they knew each other, how they were introduced, which Mal may have wanted to avoid, and likely Harrow did want to avoid - so this sensitivity towards maintaining Harrow's deniability may have impressed Harrow, and would have been sufficient cause for Mal to USE Inara towards this gain. Unfortunatly, Ath's treatment of Inara after Mal's dance was not part of Mal's plan, nor the unknown rules of challenge.
So, 1. Ath was interrupting Mal & Harrow.
2. Mal wanted to get the deal done.
3. Mal wanted to not expose Harrow - it would be a sign of untrustworthiness in shady dealings.
4. Mal wanted to get Ath away from Harrow.
5. Mal wanted Ath's attention on Harrow/Mal to be diverted, and was willing to make himself the scapegoat for that cause.
6. You think Mal didn't WANT it to look like he was just being emotional? Please try reviewing Bushwhacked when Mal tells Book to give peace to the Reaver victims, and Simon to handle the bodies, and Jayne to help, and Kaylee and Inara are impressed with Mal's caring and sensitivity while Zoe afixes a quizzical look. Please.
7. Mal was willing to USE Inara to distract Ath from Harrow and/or Harrow/Mal - and it worked.
8. Mla may have detected a note of distain in Harrow when Ath interrupted, and may have considered irritating Ath could increase Mal's standing with Harrow.
9. Mal may have considered that, by the grace that he knew these dance steps, and could fit in, he was dinstinguishing himself from the low life sociopath community.
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I will say that Shindig is not my fave ep, yet as with most of FF far above the remaining fare on TV. I don't desire to condense characters for this ep. I am not bothered by most of the "problems" o the original post.
I am most rubbed wrong with the scene of Badger & goons brandishing guns. In public. Is this really the kind of place Persephone is? at the time of a big shindig?
The other is the duel itself. The Inara claim, and Ath's distraction. Sue, Inara offering herself will give Mal the incentive to whip Ath's behind, but it did seem contrived. Maybe the editing was mistimed. but recall that for broadcast, this was one of the early episodes and the audience may have not yet been up to speed. The editing may have been paced for those accustomed to watching baseball or grass growth. Also Inara clearly pointing out that Registered Companions and their Guild had much, much more power and prestige was needed fo the audience to understand the point.
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Good morning browncoats.
This thread has certainly gotten a number of responses and I agree with many but at the same time there are some that I’m not sure I agree with, JMO. One thing I see is that as long as I’ve been coming to FFF.net there have been few threads that have focused on Inara, in a round-about way this one has and I like it. I really don’t have a problem with the way the episode was written or performed so here I’ve jotted down a number of things as the way I see it.
1) Inara being belittled by Atherton Wing is no different than Kaylee being belittled by Malcolm Reynolds in the episode.
2) Inara choosing the company of Atherton over another client shows that their first meeting may not have been great but it didn’t go badly either. Besides she likely feels safer seeing someone she knows already and going to a party would sound like fun too.
3) Dealing with clients in a business attitude one must put up with things one may not like. That goes for anyone, in any business, not just the Companion trade. You do what you do to make the agreement a success. This doesn’t mean putting up with abuse but it may mean having to put up with things you don’t want to hear. Inara was just doing her job. Like in the scene in the Serenity pilot eps where she’s bored to tears with the young man but fakes being interested.
4) Atherton approaching Malcolm and Sir Warrick at the party to my feeling was something Mr. Wing was doing to impress Sir Warrick. With Inara on his arm maybe meant as a trophy prize. I know it would seem degrading but remember Mal talks down to her all the time. Inara is smarter than most men she dates and she’s just learned to be a diplomat about it. This is how the part is written I think.
5) Entering into a party such as the one on Persephone, strangers are sought out to prove themselves worthy. The party goers want to know who you are and what makes you feel that you belong there. Kaylee is an outsider and her first attempt to mingle with the first young man she meets ends with failure. The second round with the four young ladies doesn’t look much better until the older gentleman comes in to show that they are not all assholes.
6) Kaylees acceptance comes with the group of fellows when she shows that “ This pretty girl” knows her sh*t about engines too. What guy wouldn’t want the company of a girl who could talk shop?
I will end the list here but there is a lot more going on at the party and I feel it was a good episode and well written by Lady Espenson IMO.
Z
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
7. Mal was willing to USE Inara to distract Ath from Harrow and/or Harrow/Mal - and it worked.
.
It all makes sense except that it's a bit of a stretch to deny that Ath's hand gripping Inara's arm didn't play a role in Mal's decision. You should add that to the list and then it's complete. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
6. You think Mal didn't WANT it to look like he was just being emotional? Please try reviewing Bushwhacked when Mal tells Book to give peace to the Reaver victims, and Simon to handle the bodies, and Jayne to help, and Kaylee and Inara are impressed with Mal's caring and sensitivity while Zoe afixes a quizzical look. Please.
On that one, I got right away that he was trying to keep something secret from the rest of his crew. He sends them to put the bodies to rest while he confirms his concerns about the present the Reavers left for them. In doing so, he was trying to save them from unnecessary fear in the event his worries were unfounded (and they weren't, which is just his luck).
Now, I haven't been arguing that all of these angles on Mal asking Inara to dance aren't true or even implied. Only that I, for some reason or another, haven't been picking up those implications, and so to me, his asking doesn't seem to have anything calculated in regards to the deal about it.
If there's to be a rewrite, maybe it could be a little more obvious. Like, perhaps, Mal asking Inara to dance in direct response to her asking why he's at the party or something. That would be very clear that he's trying to protect the business deal from being exposed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If I rewrote this, it would probably come out to be a completely different episode in almost all respects. The only thing I'd make an effort to keep would be the exchange between Badger and River, because that was awesome.
PR, I agree with most everything you said, but you know how stubborn and protective we browncoats can be so I tried to take it easy on the urge to rewrite the whole thing, but since you and a few other people have brought it up, Ath just isn't very interesting and this ep fails to do what an episode early in a scifi series needs to do in the way of clarifying how the world works, particularly in how Inara and companions actually work. Every time my girlfriend watches this episode it confuses her as to just how being a companion works and in future eps when people ask Inara about companion rules the only answer she ever gives is "it's complicated." How frustrating.
I don't know why, but I personally can get around the cardboard cut-out villian (maybe because the uber-cool villian Badger is in the ep) if some of these other things are fixed and as you've pointed out, perhaps we could get a little more explanation as to how companions do what they do.
I haven't had time to dig for the original script yet but if anyone knows where it is, please let me know.
Also, as a writer I love to hear criticism, comments and suggestions regarding my work so if anyone knows a way to tip Espenson off to this thread, maybe she'd be interested in sharing her own thoughts.
-e
A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
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Originally posted by zzetta13:
1) Inara being belittled by Atherton Wing is no different than Kaylee being belittled by Malcolm Reynolds in the episode.
I disagree. Mal was somewhat annoyed at Inara, and became more annoyed as Kaylee happily prattled about her rich clients and freedom from restriction. He lashed out about the dress, but I wouldn't say he was belittling Kaylee. It was a far from sensitive thing to say, but I don't think 'poofy fancy dress has no place in the engine room' is really a snub against Kaylee. She does spend most of her time in the engine room, not just because it's her job but because she likes it there. What I think he was really feeling was that he was unsure what place Inara and trappings such as she possessed had on his ship in general, and he was tired of hearing about it. He was being a jerk, but it didn't mean he thought badly of Kaylee. There's a difference, too, in their reactions. Kaylee left immediately and made her displeasure known to the Captain quite clearly. Her delight with the dress and the idea of a fancy party went a long way towards making her forget her annoyance, and she got to tease Mal about his tight pants. Kaylee is a much more straightforward girl than Inara. She might be freaked out in a gunfight, but she's not afraid to be clear on how she feels, and for the most part it's as easy to make her happy as it is to make her upset, probably because it's so clear what makes her happy.
I had a point. Oh yes...
Mal was less nasty than Atherton, and Kaylee showed more spine about it than Inara.
DM, I think the original opening teaser for the episode might only have been a draft and never made it further, I only heard it vaguely mentioned in the commentary as "my original thought was..."
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Originally posted by DMI:Quote:
particularly in how Inara and companions actually work.
Much as it shocks and pains me to say this of a fine, respectable-looking woman such as Inara, I have come to suspect that she may actually be engaged in having sex with people for financial gain.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
7. Mal was willing to USE Inara to distract Ath from Harrow and/or Harrow/Mal - and it worked.
.
It all makes sense except that it's a bit of a stretch to deny that Ath's hand gripping Inara's arm didn't play a role in Mal's decision. You should add that to the list and then it's complete. :)
I have no quarrel with listing the vise grip as part of the exchange. However, are we certain that this was the PRIMARY factor, or was this merely an EXCUSE for Mal to pursue this vector? Sir Warrick Harrow coud clearly see the vise grip, as surely any other observer could (and most of the room was surely watching Inara to begin with). To make the motive for the next move more obvious (or apparently so), Mal pointedly stared or glared at the vise grip, and followed up with the dance request. I can go either way, and in this early episode the feel for Mal seems to be that he is more complicated, a better "actor" in the verse, as indicated by Inara telling Book in the Pilot "because so few men are" - so Mal has not yet been written as much as being a foil, he is still a bit crafty and devious in the early eps. So I did not list the vise grip in my points, largely due to it being inconclusive for the argument I was attempting - but you may consider it a point, whether for or against.
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I have no quarrel with listing the vise grip as part of the exchange. However, are we certain that this was the PRIMARY factor, or was this merely an EXCUSE for Mal to pursue this vector?
I grant that Mal IS very good at deception and playing different roles, but this is also the guy who was ready to kill Simon for smuggling a girl and later on gives that impassioned speech to Inara about being a slave. He has issues with victimisation of women.
To consider that his reaction to the gripping hand (which I disagree would have been that visible to anyone not standing right with them and looking at Ath's hands on Inara in the first place) was a deliberate move seems like a rather unlikely and more convoluted scenario than the more obvious one: Mal is indeed irritated and wants to get Inara away. His feelings for her are pretty obvious, his feelings about her job even more so and, head for business or not, Mal has been known to stand up for what he feels strongly about, convenient or not.
Plus, why even show Ath's grip and Mal's reaction to so prominently (and not show anyone reacting to Mal's reaction) if it was supposed to be an act?
I'd say, yes, it was the primary motivator, and there were no pressing reasons not to follow his impulse, possibly even advantages. So he did it. If there had been reasons against the dance, Mal would have addressed the issue in some other way, but right then it was impulse coupled with opportunity.
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Having watched the series last weekend again, these comments about victimization of women remind me of something. In OoG, Inara flashback informs Mal she supported Unification, and in HoG she explains the whores as not being in the Guild (another word for Union, or Alliance). Mal says "So they're Independents" and states that payment won't be required - and Inara starts that purely business arrangement blather.
Mal will help them once he has identified with them as independents.
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Having watched the series last weekend again, these comments about victimization of women remind me of something. In OoG, Inara flashback informs Mal she supported Unification, and in HoG she explains the whores as not being in the Guild (another word for Union, or Alliance). Mal says "So they're Independents" and states that payment won't be required - and Inara starts that purely business arrangement blather.
Mal will help them once he has identified with them as independents.
One flaw: Guild does not equal Alliance. They supported the Alliance in the war, and the Alliance extends its legal protection, but they are very much separate entities. Everything else is an assumption.
And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.
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I know this thread already fell off the front page, but I was just thinking of something I think I might have liked to have seen in this episode.
What if Inara had slapped Atherton instead of Mal punching him? And then Atherton challenged Mal, ALSO with a slap? Seems to me, if Atherton is as competent as he is supposed to be in a duel, he wouldn't be waiting for other people to challenge him first. Plus it lets Inara have a bit more strength, and maybe then instead of being forced back to Atherton's estate to finish out her contract, maybe she might get put up in that hotel also (different room, of course).
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I understand the desire to get away from Mal saving the damsel in distress and let Inara stand up for herself but I just can't see that there is anyway she would slap a client who wasn't out right violating her rights in some way. Ath's general assholery (which she must have been aware of before taking him on as a client) and tight grip on her arm don't seem to me to be enough for her to act.
-e
A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
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You're probably right, she probably was aware of how Atherton acts. Perhaps the only reason she answered his wave at all is because of the invite he extended to the party, which would be a good place to expand her client base. His behaviour must not have been bad enough in the past for her to bother taking action against him, and to feign civility in light of the business prospect side of it.
But. I may be uncertain about just how good or evil or corporate the Guild is. One thing is made very clear, however; they don't tolerate the abuse of any of the sisters by clients (they wouldn't attract many disciples if they did!), and I don't imagine that a companion is expected to fulfill a contract with a client when they're sensing danger from them. Inara would be trained to recognize warning signs, and with how Atherton was acting... Practically klaxons, really.
Maybe she should have just refused to leave with him. She was part of the altercation in a sense, the rules of that society might prohibit her from running off as much as they did Mal. Or maybe the guild has some contingency plan to protect their companions from retaliation, and she got swept off somewhere secret, then emerged to see how the duel turned out.
I'm still wondering about her offer to Atherton, before Mal turns the tables. From one perspective, it is a very selfless, heroic thing for her to do, and I've heard a few people say that Inara would probably have made the same offer even if it wasn't Mal that Atherton was about to eviscerate. That seems in character to me, and from that angle is feminist positive. On the other hand, it IS Mal, and it could be construed as Inara "sacrificing herself for her beloved," which probably is NOT feminist positive.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
You're probably right, she probably was aware of how Atherton acts.
Why would she be? They've probably had a history of elegant assignations at balls, concerts and restaurants at which Atherton has been the perfect gentleman and zero (0) space cowboys turn up and try to steal his bird.
His possessive attitude only surfaces when he is faced with a threat - i.e. Mal.
Now, if the guy had any long-term relationship then his little "being an asshole" problem would surface sooner or later, but Inara just flies in for a perfect date and flies out again.
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Maybe, but I also get the feeling that this wasn't the first time Atherton asked her to stay as his personal companion.
Granted, she probably gets asked that a lot, like in the pilot episode, but unlike in the pilot episode where she just kind of inwardly sighs and smiles prettily, she seemed genuinely uncomfortable with Atherton's offer. Maybe he's been a little too persistent, maybe she senses something about him that makes her not want to stick around for a long term engagement, maybe it's just me, but that's my impression.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Maybe, but I also get the feeling that this wasn't the first time Atherton asked her to stay as his personal companion.
Granted, she probably gets asked that a lot, like in the pilot episode, but unlike in the pilot episode where she just kind of inwardly sighs and smiles prettily, she seemed genuinely uncomfortable with Atherton's offer. Maybe he's been a little too persistent, maybe she senses something about him that makes her not want to stick around for a long term engagement, maybe it's just me, but that's my impression.
I've often considered those "uncomfortable" moments to be when a client asks her to be his "personal companion" and not "wife" - like a longer hire, but no marriage.
When she now lives with a man who would gladly marry her. Non-marriage offers are quite tedious, yet marriaqge is not part of a Companion's life.
JMO.
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Perhaps, but I don't think she was so uncomfortable or even a little unnerved when the young man in the pilot asked her to stay. On the surface she's polite and regretful with her smile that immediately ends her client's further inquiries, and underneath she's a little tired. With Atherton I got the impression she was genuinely wary.
As I remember it, he asks her, and she freezes for a second before trying to pull that same smile. And a few lines later, she says "it's not a no, either." I think there's no way she would ever have considered staying with Atherton even if he wasn't a jerk, she likes her independence too much. So why tell him any different? Politeness? She doesn't bother to soothe any egos in the pilot episode. So it seems to me more like she doesn't want to confront Atherton about it, or even discuss it. She's trying to avoid giving him an answer. Why? I can't think of any other reason except that Atherton worries her somehow.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Chances are, Banning already knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end. You have to learn that stuff somewhere. The only lesson this will teach her is to be slightly less visible about where she lashes out and to despise Murphy. But what he does is really only one more spin in a circle of disrespect. He's not teaching her anything but to do exactly as she has been doing: use humiliation to solve a problem.
He's not much better than her in that regard, only he'd decided that Kaylee gets to receive his protection. He's nice to guests, so what. Anyone he has decided is useless is still fair game.
You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :) Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean). Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it. The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind. Banning, bored stiff, is just being mean to Kaylee, pretty much because she's a welcome diversion, really. Banning doesn't need new friends: she's got plenty of those. What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.
Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it." (Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).
Now, I admit, Banning's daddy having told Murphy that it takes but the space of a schoolboy's wink to get her out of her clothes is a bit creepy, really, One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.
I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).
I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Originally posted by asarian:
I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.
There was a tiny bit of a dig in there, yes, but not as overt or strong as the language you use implies, simply because of Mal's reaction to Inara's rejection of his offer. If he had been in anything resembling a playfully antagosistic mood about their ongoing differences, her rejection wouldn't have hit him the way it does, because he'd be able to connect it to a reaction to his own words.
I really think, for once, Mal wasn't being preachy about Inara's profession.
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As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.
Actually, and I think this is very obviously alluded to later in the episode, Inara is fighting the growing ties between them. He wants to do something life threatening, something heroic for her (flash back to Shindig, too) and it's just a bit too fraught with implications for Inara, who has reasons to doubt how well the two of them would actually do together.
That's why it hurts Mal. He wants to do INARA a favor (a big one) and she says no. I don't want favors from you. Don't get your hopes up. That's what really hurts. They both understand each other perfectly in that scene, and it's a pretty blatant moment there.
Oh Mal, you silly thing. If only your brain could connect the insults to her doubts about you. You just wanna pet him, right?
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Originally posted by asarian:
You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :)
I am. :) I think people spend too much time conflating her behavior with her wealth, when it could easily have been a party on some backwater dirt ball, with the queen bee there trying to put down Kaylee. Calling her a spoiled rich girl is SUCH a lazy response.
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Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean).
I wasn't talking about physical abuse.
I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.
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Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it.
Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?
It'skind of silly to pretend that they are all useless and unethical just because they are rich. We see one group of girls who could have sprung from any highschool, any playground. That has nothing to do with money and everything with being young and insecure.
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The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.
And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.
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What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.
I agree about trying to affirm the value of her life, but not because of an unbearable lightness brought on by wealth but an emotional emptiness brought on by one or two sucky parents.
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Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it."
And we know absolutely nothing about Murphy that suggests he is living a meaningful life, so he seems like quite a hypocrite. Plus, he was not rubbing in anything about the meaning of her life, he was rubbing in something to do with her private sexual behavior, basically humiliating her about something that has little to do with her wealthy lifestyle. Inconsistent.
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(Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).
Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society. I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really. This is Persephone, not the Core.
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One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.
So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.
I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.
I guess that's where we differ, really. :)
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Originally posted by asarian:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.
I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).
I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
I did not intend to imply Mal equated Nandi's whores with browncoats. But that he admired and supported the SPIRIT of the non-union or non-Alliance whores, perhaps.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?
Who's to say he isn't? :) Just because we may sympathize with him, in the moment, because of putting Banning in her place in favor of Kaylee, doesn't mean he isn't part of the same clique. I reckon he is.
As for hypocracy, I imagine they're all hypocrites to a degree, and that, purely amongst themselves, not a very great effort is made to keep up the facade. A conceited jerk like Atherton is still honest enough to come out and say all of them just wish Inara were in their bed. And even Sir Harrow's "You're mistaken, Sir. I'm an honest man." routine lasts but a mere few seconds: he still wants to move some property off-world, discretely, and readily comes about.
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The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.
And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.
And, in Shindig, not every girl is like Banning, either. Her girlfriends play along a bit -- but mostly, I reckon, because she has the higher standing, and they're not gonna side with a total unknown, obviously lower-class, girl, against Banning. But the way they giggle, after Banning has been humiliated, suggests they certainly weren't horribly offended seeing Banning taken down a peg or two.
Yes, in Dangerous Liaisons not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Still, being independently wealthy seems almost like a conditio sine qua non for such a playground. After all, regular folks have to work, and have exactly no time for games. And I just happen to think Banning fits the 'bored rich girl' profile perfectly. She's not really evil, btw: just bored out of her skull.
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I wasn't talking about physical abuse.
I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.
'Cept that Banning isn't from any social sphere, but a very rich one. The emotional neglect -- which I'm sure she endured -- plays right into the whole 'utter boredom' thingy: mom & daddy being way too busy being important to pay much attention to their kids, yet endowed with enough cashey money to 'make up' for their absence by spoiling them rotten, is the perfect breeding ground for Banning's personality and behavior.
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Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society.
Tell that to Inara. :) I'm sure she doesn't equate Persephone with Sihnon. Still, when she tells Mal, "I don't suppose you'd find it up the standards of your outings," she's certainly letting him know she thinks it's more her world than his.
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I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really.
I'm fair certain they would. The Persephone nobility pales in comparision to, say, the circles the Tams go round in. But I guess that just strengthens the hypocracy of their little world. That layer of veneer really is very, very thin. I mean, I doubt you'd see Gabriel Tam check his gun at the door. :) You think that's a commetary on the Persephone society?
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So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.
Well, I wasn't insisting, really, but I'm sure having to cope with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune isn't always easy, and certainly can mess up a kid or two. I think, for instance, Kaylee's life was easier: less rich, of course (money-wise), but also a lot less complicated.
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I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.
Funny how you reckon that, as I see it the exact opposite way: I see no specific evidence to suggest
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal)
Inara is fighting the growing ties between them.
She quite clearly is, which has always made me kind of confused when I've seen people talk about how Mal 'betrayed' her in Heart of Gold. She's very cold to him about their relationship, quite deliberately, and shortly thereafter a gorgeous, tough woman gives him some very warm attention. He has feelings for Inara, but there's nothing really established between them. What would most people have done? He's still concerned about her reaction, and she shows nothing of the pain she's feeling, channeling it into a snark and then finding a place to cry. I always found her behavior rather immature, while the general opinion I've seen is that Mal was selfish and insensitive. He wasn't the one trained to pick up on the subtlest hints to mood. He knows only what he hears. Inara was driving him away, and then she was so hurt she'd succeeded and so unsure what to do about it and the relationship in general that she left.
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Or, the OTHER explanation that I'm liking better the more I think on it. Gives her a very good reason to keep pushing him away, even though, in that scene where she's crying, she obviously wishes she didn't have to. Want to avoid potential spoilers here, but anyone who's read Better Days may know the theory I'm talking about.
I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.
Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.
Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.
As was written, "There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it." I believe Inara is crying because of the latter: she got exactly what she wanted. She kept pushing Mal away, until one day she realized he really WAS away (in the arms of another woman).
Theirs was a strained dance: Mal continually insulting Inara's profession, as his more-or-less clumsly way of letting her know he cares for her (in that he wants better for her), vs. Inara carefully not letting Mal get too close, lest she might have to deal with her feelings for him. Nandi, as it were, tipped the balance. Mal, indeed, feels guilty. I would say not even for being unfaithful to Inara per se, so much as being unfaithful to their mutual ritual. Inara knows the dance has ended, and Mal knows he had a part in that. He knows he ruined -- in terms of unfaithfulness -- not a romantic relationship between them that was, but one that could have been. Whereupon Inara concludes it's time to make the breakage 'official', as it were, and decides to leave: with no possibilities left, in her mind, it seems the only sensible thing to do.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Or she was leaving because if they ever did get involved, Mal would be very hurt at the end of it because of her secrets... Which is the view I've kind of started to lean towards.
But I do agree she's chosen to push Mal away, and it turns out it wasn't something she wanted, but I still think she has a good reason for it. Besides the whole violent criminal/unacceptable partner thing, because she does seem to get a kick out of crime sometimes. :)
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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal)
Inara is fighting the growing ties between them.
She quite clearly is, which has always made me kind of confused when I've seen people talk about how Mal 'betrayed' her in Heart of Gold. She's very cold to him about their relationship, quite deliberately, and shortly thereafter a gorgeous, tough woman gives him some very warm attention. He has feelings for Inara, but there's nothing really established between them. What would most people have done? He's still concerned about her reaction, and she shows nothing of the pain she's feeling, channeling it into a snark and then finding a place to cry. I always found her behavior rather immature, while the general opinion I've seen is that Mal was selfish and insensitive. He wasn't the one trained to pick up on the subtlest hints to mood. He knows only what he hears. Inara was driving him away, and then she was so hurt she'd succeeded and so unsure what to do about it and the relationship in general that she left.
Yeah, but you can't put all of this on Inara. If you call her immature, you have to call Mal... uh, twice as immature? He has this weird schism in his head about Inara and her job, saying he respects one but not the other. So either he thinks she is a complete moron who can't see the (supposed) hypocrisy she's living, or he's in a strange world where a person's whole-hearted choices have nothing to do with who they are. Both would make you question just how Mal understands love. Plus, he's making it very clear that his "respect" for her is not really worth being actually treated with respect. He certainly enjoys humiliating her in front of others and can never just shuttup about her job. It's like the Inara in his head is the madonna and her job is the whore. Cannot compute.
Sure, WE know his real feelings, and there are glimpses about him accepting her job occasionally, but there is really no reason for Inara to assume that this thing between them would end in anything but painful catastrophe.
I find it kind of hypocritical to fault Inara for not falling into Mal's arms whenever he deigns to show a softer side, when Mal isn't really making any effort himself, save for rare moments of wanting to play her hero or being actually faced with the potential for loss. Heroics mean very little in terms of a relationship surviving. Everyday respect does.
Inara chooses herself over some potentially doomed fling with a guy who doesn't really know what he wants with her most of the time. For a time she thinks she can do that while staying on the ship she loves, but it turns out watching Mal move on hurts too much, so she logically decides to go.
I don't find that immature.
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Refusal to accept or confront your feelings is pretty immature. They both do that dance, I never said they didn't. In the context of their relationship they both acted like teenagers, only snarkier, most of the time. In the context of Heart of Gold, though, I really can't condemn Mal for his actions or feel much sympathy for Inara after they've been doing the old push-and-pull for all those months and she decides to shut him out so completely. I just can't. I never said she should fall into his arms, I actually think she shouldn't. I just think that, after all the time she spent acting like she wanted to, and vice-versa, their absolute refusal to discuss their own tension and perhaps why they shouldn't fall into each other's arms was a much less mature choice than constant snarking and then fleeing. I understand that it's entertainment and there's going to be some drama, but I actually think that a quiet conversation about how it wouldn't work out and why could have been pretty heartwrenching if it was done right. [/sig]
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Refusal to accept or confront your feelings is pretty immature.
I think at this point Inara has. She just underestimates their impact. Her actions through the series are pretty consistent. She has one slip: kissing Mal in OMR. But she treats it as that, a slip.
There are plenty of situations where you have to confront your feelings privately, rather than making it a round-table discussion, and that's a perfectly rational way of dealing with them.
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In the context of Heart of Gold, though, I really can't condemn Mal for his actions or feel much sympathy for Inara after they've been doing the old push-and-pull for all those months and she decides to shut him out so completely. I just can't.
No one is saying you have to condemn Mal. He betrayed his own values, not Inara, since clearly he feels guilty but is pretty aware she has no actual claim on him.
He hasn't really made a sincere effort to show Inara his feelings, he'd rather escape into the arms of a less complicated woman. His good right, but then I can't feel much sympathy for him when Inara chooses to escape into the arms of a less complicated life.
It's as you say, equal opportunity retreat?
If Mal had spent any time thinking, he would have seen Inara's declaration coming a mile away, really. He hurts her, Inara hits back and then retreats. It's a pattern. Attempts to be sincere with her once that pattern is engaged have never worked, she'll only retreat more politely. (See the sword practice scene in Shindig.) Mal just has a really messed up sense of when to show his feelings: when she won't care to hear them.
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I just think that, after all the time she spent acting like she wanted to, and vice-versa, their absolute refusal to discuss their own tension and perhaps why they shouldn't fall into each other's arms was a much less mature choice than constant snarking and then fleeing.
The problem is that it's not a done deal. The suspicion that it's doomed is at war with the suspicion that it could be wonderful, which is the entire point of their conflict. They see the potential, they see the obstacles and they are scared and choose not to pursue. They prioritise their independence, both of them.
Mal flees into the shield of calling her a whore, Inara snarks back and retreats, Mal pretends he's the only one being pushed away, Inara ultimately flees back to her life. The snarking and fleeing is who they both are at this point in their lives. If they had the insight to have a mature conversation about their relationship, they would have the insight to realise how their respective "flaws" don't really bother them. Mal would let her be a Companion, Inara would let Mal be a petty thief and they'd be happy. These are people who are afraid of their mutual potential, they are conflicted. For good reasons, because we know Mal is traumatised by loss, and we know weird things are going on in Inara's past.
If they could solve their conflict easily, there would be no conflict in the first place, you know?
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Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)
Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...
Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.
My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.
I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)
Not infantile, really. :) I reserve that for Kaylee when she gets huffy about Simon.
Mal is more ...selectively hypocritical. He doesn't seem to register that his words to Inara have an effect, a long-term one, but he gets all wounded when Inara hits back or rejects his advances. His need to be defensive, to use "whore" as a weapon to protect his fragile heart seems so ingrained that it doesn't register as extremely discouraging behavior to him.
It's a bit pathetic, mostly tragic, but not really infantile. :)
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Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...
Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.
My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.
I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.
Okay, you are correct, I overstated that bit. He doesn't want to publicly humiliate her, really. :) But the rest still applies.
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Way I see it, it's not so much he doesn't think his words effect her, he wouldn't keep poking at her if they didn't. She's a high class lady; he can't imagine her caring in the long run about insults or opinions from someone in a much lower position on the social totem pole.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Way I see it, it's not so much he doesn't think his words effect her, he wouldn't keep poking at her if they didn't. She's a high class lady; he can't imagine her caring in the long run about insults or opinions from someone in a much lower position on the social totem pole.
It's that long-term-effect I'm talking about, though, and it's exactly as you say. He just assumes that the insults wouldn't bother Inara long-term, as if they don't send a somewhat consistent - if false - message.
It might make sense if they hadn't formed a friendship, if Inara wasn't actually quite involved in the crew's fate, but she is, so his ignorance of this long-term effect he would have on his friend Inara by regularly insulting her, regardless of social class, is not quite natural. His few but sincere attempts at forging a closer connection (Shindig, HoG) demonstrate that he doesn't see an unbridgeable social distance, not really. He wouldn't even try, otherwise.
I think this blindness to his own effect is a bit willful, born out of fear, because disapproving of her life choices and rudely telling her so is his best defense against Inara. If he was honest with himself about his effect and stopped insulting/hurting her, he'd be facing tougher questions.
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Hmm, true enough. Long term there's an effect that he's just ignoring, and that ignoring is probably another defense mechanism along the lines of 'She's not interested, doesn't care. Good.'
I can believe there might be a little fear, sometimes, and definitely that he willfully pushes her away. I think he thinks he'd ruin her and she's out of his league.
The most he ever tried, before Nandi dropped those hints, was asking her not to accept Atherton's offer. That was his own quiet way of asking her to not leave him, but he definitely couldn't say that specifically, because what exactly would she be leaving? Nothing, in his mind.
Slightly off topic: does anyone else get the impression that getting the two of them to confront their feelings was ENTIRELY Nandi's purpose? She did have SOME companion training before she left. Guess we'll never know now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Slightly off topic: does anyone else get the impression that getting the two of them to confront their feelings was ENTIRELY Nandi's purpose? She did have SOME companion training before she left. Guess we'll never know now.
You mean, was it her intention? No way. If it had been, she would have failed spectacularly, as it got them to confront their feelings, but also destroyed any chance of actually having something together for foreseeable future. She didn't seem that short-sighted or stupid to me.
If this had been her plan, it'd also have been a dang selfish way to do it. Nandi is very clear to Mal that she had no idea Inara had feelings for him, implying she wouldn't have slept with him had she known, and during the evening conversation she has Mal revealing his feelings for Inara, albeit very slightly veiled, making the sex unnecessary for just that purpose.
I think Nandi sees her own inability to fully know Inara reflected in Mal, and the unexpected commonality blinds her to Inara's feelings for Mal. They share a night based on their hurt feelings for an absent third person that they both failed to read accurately, which I find beautifully poetic and tragic.
Was it her purpose in terms of the writers' intentions? Uh, yes, almost entirely. :)
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Well, if Nandi had lived, she might have been able to do some damage control and helped them bridge that gap; could be the way she left it hadn't been her intention.
Just seems strange to me that she'd spend the night with Mal, and not chatting up her dear old friend who has about zero experience aiding in childbirth. Makes me think maybe there was some ulterior motive there, that she's trying to help the both of them.
But your way is interesting too. You think she's attracted to Inara?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, if Nandi had lived, she might have been able to do some damage control and helped them bridge that gap; could be the way she left it hadn't been her intention.
But then why do the damage in the first place? It would have been more productive JUST talking to Mal, or even better, talking to Inara. Sleeping with Mal is about 100% counter-productive.
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Just seems strange to me that she'd spend the night with Mal, and not chatting up her dear old friend who has about zero experience aiding in childbirth. Makes me think maybe there was some ulterior motive there, that she's trying to help the both of them.
Would you seduce your friend's crush to help them open up their feelings? But how would sleeping with Mal help them? It's not the kind of thing you do to a person you like. You don't strengthen the chances of a couple by making yourself a third party to their relationship. It'd be a completely backward plan. It's cruelty, even. And a completely unjustified outside interference.
It'd make Nandi a pretty villainous character.
I agree that Nandi spending time with Mal instead of Inara is sort of a huge plot hole that is glossed over. It's not really logical and Joss gets away with it because of the monumental fall-out. But I just cannot for the life of me consider that she knew Inara had feelings for Mal and then slept with him anyway. It'd assassinate everything I like about Nandi.
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But your way is interesting too. You think she's attracted to Inara?
I personally think so, yes, but to keep it more neutral, it can easily be toned down to them having obviously shared a close friendship at some point, and the way Nandi emphasises that SHE doesn't know Inara's reason for leaving Sihnon, either, just jumps out at me that this disconnect, keeping her emotions very close, is a pattern with Inara that Nandi has struggled with the same way Mal does, only Mal is probably more to blame himself - which Nandi doesn't know.
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In my opinion, Shindig is very very enjoyable.
You know, I'm a big fan of Mal And Inara (I love the sexual tension).
Mal loves Inara, but he doesn´t like her job. And Inara loves Mal, but she doesn´t like his job.
Almost, Companion can´t felt love.
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Rouka:
*Cough* Um, well, no, I wouldn't do that, but that's more a case of "not-applicable."
I do see what you're saying. I don't know, it still feels to me like Nandi could see Inara and Mal's feelings right away. The way the two snark at each other is so blatantly obvious, and they're even at it when Inara is trying to introduce Mal. And then Nandi seems to smirk knowingly.
Hmm, Nandi does seem curious. Or is that intended to get Mal curious and she already knows why Inara left? Bah, if only she hadn't died, then we might know this stuff.
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Quote:
Originally posted by veronic:
In my opinion, Shindig is very very enjoyable.
You know, I'm a big fan of Mal And Inara (I love the sexual tension).
Mal loves Inara, but he doesn´t like her job. And Inara loves Mal, but she doesn´t like his job.
Almost, Companion can´t felt love.
She doesn't want to, at least.
Yeah, they're pretty much my favourite potential couple. Definitely the most intense, and really interesting their respective issues.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Rouka:
*Cough* Um, well, no, I wouldn't do that, but that's more a case of "not-applicable."
I do see what you're saying. I don't know, it still feels to me like Nandi could see Inara and Mal's feelings right away. The way the two snark at each other is so blatantly obvious, and they're even at it when Inara is trying to introduce Mal. And then Nandi seems to smirk knowingly.
Hmm, Nandi does seem curious. Or is that intended to get Mal curious and she already knows why Inara left? Bah, if only she hadn't died, then we might know this stuff.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. :)
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I had thought Nandi had clearly said after the night with Mal that she had not known INARA had the same feelings towards Mal, or else Nandi would not have intervened. If this is true, Nandi would have seen Mal pining for Inara, and Inara wanting to keep things purely businesslike, and Nandi would have been providing a diversion for Mal, taking the pressure off of Inara, in addition to whatever Nandi wanted from or for Mal. Inara was a player, and purportedly a better trained Companion than Nandi, so Nandi could have missed the signs if Inara wanted her to miss them, at least until the morning after.
Regaqrding Mal jabbing Inara, I normally conjure Mal is irked by Inara supporting Unification, which Mal likely considers redundant for a whore. Mal and Zoe are fairly anti-Unification, Jayne is anti-Alliance (at least lawforce), Wash is acceptable through marriage, Kaylee was on a world near Paquin (according to the Map of the Verse, a border world near Silverhold, Truimph) and not obviously pro-Unification. Inara is the exception, the lone anti-freedom advocate aboard, and a constantly available target for scorn. The profession of whore only allows veiled analogies, being a whore for Unification. If this seems unlikely, consider that many who identify themselves as conservatives or liberals often continue to jab each other, even when not an eliction year (beware RWED). Similar thing.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, Rouka, I think the word you're trying to think of to describe Mal is "infantile." :)
Although. I don't recall him ever deliberately trying to publicly humiliate her...
Oh wait, the scene in the pilot, with Book. But I'm not sure that's cut-and-dry. He was in a mean mood on account of Badger, wanted to make the preacher uncomfortable and rile Inara by the usual means, but didn't take into account that Book wasn't already familiar with their game. It was poorly handled by Mal all around, and Inara's words to him telling him that he stepped over a line apparently made him feel guilty enough that he sent Book with some food for her as an apology.
My impression is that he normally doesn't behave that way when introducing Inara to strangers. The other times I remember that he embarrasses her are inadvertent (getting into a duel because he doesn't know the customs of the upper class) or he does so privately, as in Our Mrs. Reynolds.
I don't really classify the sniping they do to each other as that either.
I figured the Pilot scene was, like Inara said, more to discomfit Book than Inara. When Book was revealed as one of religiosity, it was Kaylee who tried to sooth any Mal conflict, because, "it's just not" a problem. Mal still had to get in his jab, asking if this was a problem.
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Well, that's if Nandi is being truthful.
I like Nandi, and I don't think she's some evil person. I even enjoy her story about the dulcimer in the spirit she tells it, imagine her roll her eyes and just smash it to pieces on the ground instead of the possibly more likely scenario of a young companion under a lot of stress throwing a temper tantrum.
And whoever is in charge of house Madrassa really SHOULD go gen hou-zi bi diu-shi for telling all the other companions to shun Nandi for leaving.
I'll admit if it were her plan to play matchmaker, it wouldn't be a good one, especially because she should have been trained to recognize whether she was becoming an interloper and the negative affect that would have on a relationship. Companions seem to function as therapists quite often, and I don't think their intent is for their client to leave an appointment worse off.
But doing what she does, Nandi quickly and efficiently finds out what their feelings are, and equally quickly reveals them. She makes a big old mess of it, but I think ( and I think Nandi thought) the two of them would have been able to work things out once they knew... if not for Inara's secrets that cause her to leave. I don't know. Just how it happens, seems a bit too unbelievable for coincidence.
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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash is acceptable through marriage
What makes you think he supported unification and is only 'acceptable' because Zoe married him? I never saw any evidence of his support for the Alliance, and behind the scene conjecture is that he was flying in some function for the Independents and was taken prisoner, spending most of the war in a low-security cell entertaining other minor war criminals with shadow puppets.
C'mon, that's so Wash.
[/sig]
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No one's sure exactly what planet Wash came from. The amount of pollution he talks about could be indicative of an over-developed core world. Or it could be crappy terraforming or some other polluting operation on a border/rim world/moon.
I think he was probably Independent too, it brings another angle to the jealousy he feels over Mal and Zoe, in that he never got to experience any of the War (makes it harder from him to relate to her, and maybe he was also very passionate about fighting the War).
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I doubt he ever saw much combat, or wanted to. My thought is he was probably running supplies and got intercepted. Not to say he wasn't passionate about it, I think he was, but he's not inclined to be a warrior the same way Zoe is. I think that still adds to the jealousy issue, though. Maybe he feels like he's not strong enough for her sometimes. [/sig]
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Well, he's a pilot. They have a different mentality than trenchmen. Dogfights are somewhat impersonal, but there's also this weird kind of respect, like it's a duel, it's different from the feel of war that most of us are familiar with. You fly a sortee, you go home to your base after and have dinner and drinks.
He'd have wanted to fly and be the greatest pilot out there, be decorated as a hero for some nigh-impossible scouting mission or perilous escape. I think if he got captured, he'd be disappointed he never got that chance.
Oh, also on the Wash-during-the-war-history, there's also the question of where did he got to pilot school. That could seem alliance because it's very official, but then on more prosperous worlds (like one with enough industry to be heavily polluted), they'd probably have to be able to train pilots to transport their goods to the rest of the verse.
So, it could swing either way, but Wash really doesn't have an Alliance mentality. I think he gets a thrill thumbing his nose at the law, same as the rest of them. On the other hand, he has called their lifestyle "unhealthsome" and unwise, and suggested Zoe is the only reason he does it. It think he's just more acutely aware of the danger because it's Zoe who's in danger.
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash is acceptable through marriage
What makes you think he supported unification and is only 'acceptable' because Zoe married him? I never saw any evidence of his support for the Alliance, and behind the scene conjecture is that he was flying in some function for the Independents and was taken prisoner, spending most of the war in a low-security cell entertaining other minor war criminals with shadow puppets.
C'mon, that's so Wash.
Sorry, did not intend to suggest Wash was Pro-Alliance. Had no info pro-Alliance, nor did he banter aboutn how he fought in the war for the Independents. Without clear indication either way, his marriage to Zoe (actually vice versa) s=gave him cred - Zoe would not mesh with a purplebelly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But doing what she does, Nandi quickly and efficiently finds out what their feelings are, and equally quickly reveals them. She makes a big old mess of it, but I think ( and I think Nandi thought) the two of them would have been able to work things out once they knew... if not for Inara's secrets that cause her to leave. I don't know. Just how it happens, seems a bit too unbelievable for coincidence.
Except it's not efficient! :)
Nandi can tell Inara likes Mal - without knowing Inara ran into Mal outside her door, without talking about Mal at all, JUST from the way Inara won't look at her when she steps into the room later that morning. Or something like that.
She can read Inara, when she puts her mind to it.
The efficient thing to do would have been to ask Inara upfront. That reaction would have been enough to know and then she could have worked up some kind of reveal - if indeed she was so nosy as to mess with their business in the first place.
I really find that whole theory of manipulation cannot work without attaching a hefty dose of selfishness to Nandi because you do NOT mess with other people's relationships unasked, especially if you have training. And it just doesn't jive with the maturity Nandi displays in the rest of the episode.
And I still maintain that it's nothing short of cruel to create a rift like that. You do NOT do that to anyone who even remotely like on purpose. Whether they MAY repair (repair! That means something was broken!) or not later.
I mean, seriously, Mal and Inara could never look back on the moment when they got together without thinking about Mal sleeping with Nandi. How is that going to help them last? It doesn't really promise anything for a couple starting out rocky actually being able to stay together. Nandi isn't that dumb.
I do NOT think they would have been able to work things out "were it not for Inara's secret". If it wasn't for Inara's secret they MIGHT already be together (or never have met at all). But even if it wasn't for her secret (which we didn't know for the longest time and still could make sense of her choice to leave, you know) Mal's awful behavior to her would still come into play, Inara's different values, their different lives... Lots of reasons for Inara to resist the relationship that have nothing to do with her secret. Add the shock and pain from Mal and Nandi, and you do not really make a convincing case to Inara to try this relationship.
And why would Nandi think they could work it out, really? How would she know?
And as I said, sometimes a weird thing like Nandi spending time with Mal instead of Inara IS just bad writing. Joss is capable of plotholes. See "The Message". ;)
Dammit. I walked away from this thread before and I am sucked back in!
I guess I just keep being confused by your opinion. How can you even consider that anyone with training would think that this is a good idea? A selfish fourteen-year-old might, but a grown woman trained in psychology and counseling who clearly likes Inara a lot and knows a thing or two about respecting people's freedom to make choices? I'm making my incredulous face. :)
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Are you saying Nandi knew Inara had equal feelings for Mal BEFORE she spent the night with Mal?
I had not seen that view proposed before. Only that Nandi knew Mal had feelings for Inara.
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I am not saying that. I'm arguing against it, in fact.
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Think JewelStaiteFan was talking to me. :)
I don't mean to keep you here. It's a suspicion I have, not a strong opinion that this is how it was, or belief that if this was Nandi's intention, it was the right thing to do. People can make bad judgment calls, especially, it seems, when trying to play matchmaker.
But in the interest of defending my case, the banter they trade in Nandi's presence would give her no indication of how much and how seriously the two of them fight and insult each other. And I think I do agree with you that Nandi doesn't know what Inara's secret is. Hence, my saying that if this WAS what she was going for, the possibility of believing they might still have a chance even after. A lot of us fans do, don't we? If we feel like they have a chance after what Nandi did, why wouldn't SHE?
I also propose their relationship was pretty broken BEFORE Nandi may or may not have intervened.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Think JewelStaiteFan was talking to me. :)
I don't mean to keep you here. It's a suspicion I have, not a strong opinion that this is how it was, or belief that if this was Nandi's intention, it was the right thing to do. People can make bad judgment calls, especially, it seems, when trying to play matchmaker.
But in the interest of defending my case, the banter they trade in Nandi's presence would give her no indication of how much and how seriously the two of them fight and insult each other. And I think I do agree with you that Nandi doesn't know what Inara's secret is. Hence, my saying that if this WAS what she was going for, the possibility of believing they might still have a chance even after. A lot of us fans do, don't we? If we feel like they have a chance after what Nandi did, why wouldn't SHE?
I also propose their relationship was pretty broken BEFORE Nandi may or may not have intervened.
Yes, but what I am arguing is that it would be completely irrational to try and "fix" their relationship by putting such a big strain on it, you know? It's like poisoning someone to make them realise they were living a stressful life that MIGHT lead to heart problems. Who would do that?
Even if their relationship had not been fraught with conflict, this strain would have thrown them back considerably, so there is no reason at all to suspect Nandi should have expected a positive outcome from sleeping with Mal knowing that Inara loved him.
The more I think about it, the more implausible it becomes.
Why break something like that, only to "hope" that it may be fixed afterwards? It's too obviously nonsensical for a smart woman like Nandi to try, especially when there would have been better ways to try and manipulate them, say, by simply talking to them. Maximum information and manipulation without any of the damage that would keep them apart.
The thing is that Nandi is not the kind who would make bad judgment calls about this because she has been trained in subjects pertaining to human behavior and psychology. It's like expecting Wash to make a rookie mistake about piloting Serenity.
And there is still no motivation for Nandi to try and secretly manipulate them like this when she could just openly ask them.
Overall your theory is just too improbable because it bends logic and characterisation too much.
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Well, I never really said I believed it over much. It's just something I wonder about.
I know you don't really want to discuss it anymore, so I'll try to drop it too now.
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Nah, really, I apologize for getting all obsessive about it. :)
Have a nice day, anyways!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I mean, seriously, Mal and Inara could never look back on the moment when they got together without thinking about Mal sleeping with Nandi.
Which hooks precisely into an earlier point I made: that after having slept with Nandi, Mal basically ruined their mutual little dance. There had always been this 'rogue-man-looking-down-on-upper-class-but-clumsiliy-respecting-her-anyway' vs. 'high-class-lady-finding-his-world-not-up-to-standards-of-her-usual-outings-but-secretely-being-very-fond-of-her-life-onboard-serenity-anyway' thingy in the air, possibly allowing for a happy ending. After Mal slept with Nandi, it's like suddenly the music stopped, and they both realized the futility of going on playing their mutual game.
Also, how immature are Mal and Inara really? Been reading a lot 'bout that on this thread. But, in earnest, let he who is without issues cast the first stone! I mean, if folks were generally taken to handling relationships in a rational, mature manner, forth-coming and clear in what they wish to express, and doing so politely, without snarky reproaches, nicely sitting around the table, openly talking about what bothers them, then what relationship would ever suffer or be strained? In fact, I'd say it's rather rare, if not extremely so, to see two people that mature. I forgot her name, but there was this American psychiatrist who once said that humans, on a whole, don't even know how to have sex with each other properly (meaning, though a very basic function, it's often plagued by power-issues, shame, obsessiveness, shyness, guilt, etc.). Her words struck me as particularly true. I think I'd be hard-pressed to find a couple that's mature on a physical, emotional, and psychological level, all at the same time, and eloquent enough to express their possible grievances in such a manner that they'd be ironed-out on the spot, or nearly so. I mean, Mal is scarred by his war. And Inara? Obviously she's got issues too, be it that she's perhaps more refined in hiding them (even to herself!).
I'm not even sure I'd want Mal and Inara all mature, as that would probably mean they've either evolved to being the next Buddha, or their lives are simply too uneventful to put to film. In a way, I like them marred, if that means there's stuff to work out and potential for human growth and healing. Which is why I like the "Good answer" bit in the BDM. Mal -- to stay with the terminology -- is still not 'mature' enough to flat-out say he wants her to stay (and Inara vice versa, for that matter). So maybe they're both kinda clumsily working towards something obvious. Or maybe they're exactly where they ought to be.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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