Simon the Virgin Poll

POSTED BY: howdyrockerbaby1
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 23:29
VIEWED: 16773
PAGE 1 of 1

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:06 PM

Hey guys,

I just wanted to make a little poll about whether or not Simon is a virgin. for the first part of the poll just answer yes he's a virgin or no he's not a virgin (i want to see peoples honest opinion, without any vote swaying from other peoples desitions). then after a couple of days, we all can add our reasoning to what we believe. then take the poll again, to see if anybodie's decitions have changed!

I hope that made sense.

My Vote: Yes he's a virgin

as of Monday, June 7, 2004:

Well the votes tend to be of the No pursuation, and seeing as people are getting a might jumpy to explain their reasoning, i'm just going to let the polling end, and the argueing..er...reasoning begin.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

SGTGUMP

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:20 PM

NO

VOTE LIBERTARIAN

"What? She killed 'em with mathematics. What else could it have been?" -Jayne

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sgtgump:
NO

I don't think he is a virgin. He seems like a pretty well rounded rich kid, which leads me to beleive he probably had a steady girlfriend in high school. I'm thinking that he lost his cherry at prom right before he went to the doctor school. He couldn't beleive it.

VOTE LIBERATRIAN

"What? She killed 'em with mathematics. What else could it have been?" -Jayne

Hey! I said only say YES or NO at first then once i tally it up, we will "argue" with our reasoning. I don't want anybody elses reasoning, swaying other voters.

would you mind editing your post and deleting your reasoning until later?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

PURPLEBELLY

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:23 PM

definitely sexually experienced, though perhaps not with women

BLACKSHAMROCK5

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:50 PM

No

Shamrock
_________________________
Gentlemen, vegetables have threatened mankind for generations. I have obtained funds to solve this vegetable nightmare. Behold...the Rabbot!-ATHF

TMURRIE

Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:51 PM

YES

BIKISDAD

Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:00 PM

NO, NO, NO, NOT EVEN.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

GRACEOM

Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:44 PM

No

DARKJESTER

Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:47 PM

No

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

BECKINSALE

Sunday, June 6, 2004 11:47 PM

No

RAISTLYNNE

Monday, June 7, 2004 12:21 AM

Maybe.

TERRIBLETINK

Monday, June 7, 2004 12:26 AM

Yes.

-------------------------------------------------
"I'll be in my bunk."

BETHYB

Monday, June 7, 2004 12:31 AM

No way.

PIERSNICA

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:04 AM

No.

WHEDONESQUE

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:13 AM

No, not a virgin.

EBONEZER

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:41 AM

It depends... I know that makes no sense, but I'll wait untill we get into arguments to tell you why.

-----------------------------------

Four out of five dentists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

DAVCO92

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:43 AM

Do hamsters count? J/K No.

Burn the land, boil the sea...

SIKKUKUT

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:47 AM

Not so much, says I. Can't wait to discuss reasoning.

SHINYSEVEN

Monday, June 7, 2004 1:53 AM

NO!!!!!!

ZOID

Monday, June 7, 2004 2:11 AM

Virgin, as in look up 'virgin' in the dictionary and there's a picture of Simon alongside the entry.

zoid

JEBBYPAL

Monday, June 7, 2004 2:17 AM

Nope

The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards

MISSAYATAM

Monday, June 7, 2004 2:27 AM

No

FILMGODDESS

Monday, June 7, 2004 2:57 AM

No

"You can't take the sky from me."

ELWOODMOM

Monday, June 7, 2004 3:33 AM

Yes, unless you count his hand...in that case, no.

My vote is yes, he's a virgin.

(Cute poll, Howdy!)

DITHER

Monday, June 7, 2004 4:16 AM

Simon, the virgin pole. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I vote no.

"That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth."

WREN

Monday, June 7, 2004 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by howdyrockerbaby1:
Quote:
Originally posted by sgtgump: (quote edited)

Hey! I said only say YES or NO at first then once i tally it up, we will "argue" with our reasoning. I don't want anybody elses reasoning, swaying other voters.

would you mind editing your post and deleting your reasoning until later?

Erm, what is the point in asking sgtgump to edit his post when you quote it in yours?

No (but I may have been influenced by reading what sgtgump said so I'm not sure you should count my vote )

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

SPOOKYJESUS

Monday, June 7, 2004 10:42 AM

I'm going with yes - 'cause it'd be funny and sweet and suit the frontier nerd kind of vibe he's got going on.

KARENKAY99

Monday, June 7, 2004 11:06 AM

no

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, June 7, 2004 11:39 AM

Yes.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

LIZ

Monday, June 7, 2004 2:24 PM

Yes.

NICOLACLARKE

Monday, June 7, 2004 4:54 PM

Yes.

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /

WILDHEAVENFARM

Monday, June 7, 2004 5:44 PM

No, I don't think he is. I think he got some, maybe only once, a loooong time ago, and it probably wasn't very good. Then he became consumed with medicine and forgot all about it. I say this as the proud deflowerer of a 22 yr old virgin.

Also, and I know these may be fighting words, does anyone else think Sean Maher is gay? I saw his interview snippets in the making-of piece on the dvd and I immediately though, "If only I could introduce him to my friend Nathan."

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

KALATHENA

Monday, June 7, 2004 6:33 PM

Oh c'mon. I don't believe ANYONE over the age of 16 is a virgin unless they tell me otherwise. To write a mid-20's character who is a virgin would be rediculous, unless there was some aspect critical to their character that made it the truth. Things like childhood trauma/abuse, a spiritual vow of some sort, etc.

It would be an extremely unrealistic character if he was.

--Kala

REKKA2

Monday, June 7, 2004 6:53 PM

So does that make me an exception, the rule, or just lame?

PURPLEBELLY

Monday, June 7, 2004 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WildHeavenFarm:
does anyone else think Sean Maher is gay?

Here's me thinking that his portrayal of Simon as gay was so convincing because of his acting skills

SPLIBERTARIAN

Monday, June 7, 2004 7:51 PM

Simon a virgin? I'm guessing no.

Quote:

I don't believe ANYONE over the age of 16 is a virgin unless they tell me otherwise.

Considering that most virgins don't prance about proclaiming their virginity, I imagine you know many more virgins than you think.

Then again, there is the Clinton Legacy...

WILDHEAVENFARM

Monday, June 7, 2004 8:35 PM

I've known several guys who were virgins past the drinking age. Of course, they also spent a lot of time playing Dungeons & Dragons and Vampire: The Masquerade. I'm pretty sure that factors in heavily.

And remember what Inara said, virginity is just one state of being.

Quote:
Originally posted by kalathena:
Oh c'mon. I don't believe ANYONE over the age of 16 is a virgin unless they tell me otherwise. To write a mid-20's character who is a virgin would be rediculous, unless there was some aspect critical to their character that made it the truth. Things like childhood trauma/abuse, a spiritual vow of some sort, etc.

It would be an extremely unrealistic character if he was.

--Kala

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

CAGEYBEE

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:35 AM

i think no....and hope to survive to explain my reasoning. which i'm sure is consistent with quite a few others in here. i'm a popular theroist.

me
the queen of the obscure

~Mal- "how drunk was i last night?"
~Jayne- "i don't know. i passed out."

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:25 AM

just thought i'd give this thread a little bump, so everybody knows, that the reasoning can now begin.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

RUTHIE

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 8:24 AM

My vote is for yes -

and as I seem to be the first to post after 'official' permission to reason, here's why...

I was watching Shindig last night.
I think that episode gives an insight into Simon's cultural background - similar to the 'posh' people at the ball.

Remember the old gentleman's comment to nasty Banning, about a wink of a schoolboy's eye being all the time needed to get her out of her dress?
And how offended she was by that comment?

That's the attitude to 'unsanctioned' sex that Simon would have been brought up with - but even more so, because I'm sure that the 'gentlefolk' of the core planets would consider even the elite of Persephone as provincial mudboots.

Simon seems, at heart, a conformist, who actually believed and valued his upbringing, until the need to rescue River thrust him into extreme behaviour. So, through his time at school, medical training, and working as a doctor, he would have behaved as a perfect gentleman towards women.

We're talking Jane Austin values - a kiss is as far as it's permitted to go before marriage, and even that's a bit risky.

Since being on Serenity, Simon may have started to re-think his pre-formed values - but no more than that. He's attracted to Kaylee, but is trying to exhibit that attraction according to his rules - while being bright enough to realise that Kaylee operates by quite different rules. So he's trying to be gentleman enough for both of them.

I think that, as the series progressed (if it had ... Fox... ) we would have seen Simon and Kaylee together - in a moment VERY meaningful for Simon, and far less significant for Kaylee - which would have led to further story lines of just the type of stereotype reversal that JW likes so much.

*******************
Ruthie
*******************
By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)

PURPLEBELLY

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruthie:
So, through his time at school, medical training, and working as a doctor, he would have behaved as a perfect gentleman towards women.

Perhaps we should ask someone who knows what goes on at an English private school. Mr. Whedon, know someone with that experience?

NUISANCE

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:04 AM

Quote:
Remember the old gentleman's comment to nasty Banning, about a wink of a schoolboy's eye being all the time needed to get her out of her dress?
And how offended she was by that comment?

I think Banning reacted in such a way because the gentleman was calling her a slut. I don't know if she was offended because it's true or because it's false.

Anyway my vote on Simon: not a virgin.

I think his romance with Kaylee was proceeding slowly due to the uncertainty of his future and his preoccupation with his sister's health. Another relevant factor could be his talent for saying the wrong thing at the crucial moment.

GRACEOM

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:35 PM

I doubt Simon's a virgin because:

He's a very good looking man--handsome face, nice physique. He may have an awkward personality, but he's not a jerk. As a medical student/young doctor, coming from a "good" family, with great prospects for the future...*many* women would happily overlook his lack of social smoothness. Indeed, some might consider it an asset. Women would have been all over him.

And his social awkwardness is not entirely divorced from his current circumstances. He doesn't know how to talk to Kaylee or most of the other members of Serenity's crew; he's a fish out of water in their world (though he is adapting). But remember the Simon of "Ariel"? In his environment, he was deciscive, commanding, and competent, perhaps even brilliant. His colleagues--the female doctors, med students, nurses...this is the Simon they would have seen on a daily basis.

And while it's Simon we see putting his foot in his mouth with Kaylee, a smoother, more confident girl wouldn't have much trouble guiding him right past his faux pas. Kaylee is insecure with him as well. She fears he looks down on her, so when he says something stupid she gets hurt, instead of seeing through his moments of oafishness.

I expect he might have had some difficulty maintaining lasting relationships, but that's a different question...

Grace

SHINYSEVEN

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:46 PM

I agree with Grace--I'd certainly believe it if the question was whether Simon had ever had a relationship that lasted more than about six weeks (21 Jump Street flashback here...). But I'm sure he's been serially dated and dumped by about half the hospital staff everyplace that he's ever worked.

I'm still trying to work out whether "heterosexuality" "homosexuality" and "bisexuality" are concepts that have any meaning at all in the 'Verse so "about half the hospital staff" could mean various things.

And I'm still not sure if they're working off the same Bible we are (I assume Saffron was making that stuff up instead of quoting the official version) but I think it's at least a hint that although their relationship is far from perfect, Simon and Kaylee have been sexually intimate at least once. "Opened her feet" is an Old Testament metaphor for "got busy" and "bare feet" is a metaphor for "naked."

REKKA2

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:22 PM

When I think of Simon "getting his moves on" somehow i get the picture of winthorp in the movie "Trading Places"...anyone else agree? Im thinking of before he lost his job and everything, him and his girlfriend Penelope.

Anyone else agree?

KALATHENA

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:27 PM

Quote:
Considering that most virgins don't prance about proclaiming their virginity, I imagine you know many more virgins than you think.

I don't doubt that either. My beliefs are based on stats. Statistically speaking, as of the mid-90s I believe the average age for males losing their virginity was up to something like 14.5 (up from 13.5 in the late 80s.)

And no, I wouldn't think anyone who is an exception to the rule is lame. I was WAY above the average myself.

--Kala

THATWEIRDGIRL

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:29 PM

No. He would have been quite the catch back in the core. I think he did his best to be the son he was expected to be. This means he dated the right girls. It may also mean that the right girls did not do such things and he was expected to rely on other girls/boys or companions for sex.

I do wonder about jaynestown though. If that guy could be 26 and a virgin, Simon could too.

Quote:
Originally posted by kalathena:
Oh c'mon. I don't believe ANYONE over the age of 16 is a virgin...

I was a virgin in high school and college. I know lots of 20 somethings that are virgins. I know many teens that are virgins too.

www.thatweirdgirl.com

NUR

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:16 PM

No. And I'm not going to explain because everyone before me who also voted no has already wonderfully articulated why.

http://www.thecherryorchard.net

Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an 26:83

LIZ

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 7:06 PM

I still think that he's a virgin. He strikes me as the type of guy who would be waiting for the right girl and when he found her, he'd marry her and then they would have all the fun they want! He's always seemed at least respectful of Book's prayers and perhaps more than that. If he was raised with the religion that Book follows then he probably would have been expected to follow the ideals of no sex before marriage. Since Simon has proven himself to be an obedient son (until River was in trouble) i think he would be obedient to the mores of his society in this way as well. After all, just because women (and possibly men) are throwing themselves at him doesn't mean that he would have to give into them.
I know that i'm losing this debate but, in the immortal words of our own Malcolm Reynolds, "May have been the losing side... still not convinced it was the wrong one."

NEDWARD

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 9:44 PM

Probably yes. I agree with the multiple reasoning as to why he might not be, but I just have this inkling, y'know?

SHINYSEVEN

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:00 PM

Ah, but do we know for sure that the mores of that society condemn premarital (or nonmarital) sex? After all, Inara is the second-most-respectable person on the boat.

I forgot to say before that I think it's also significant that Simon is not just a doctor but a surgeon. Probably it'd take more than a mere 500 years to change "surgery" as a career path for people who aren't good at things like talking to people who are still conscious.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

NICOLACLARKE

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:11 PM

I'm going to say a qualified yes. I wouldn't rule out some sort of drunken fumble, or a semi-seduction by a treasure-hunting older woman; I also have no doubt that, as a doctor, sex holds few purely physical mysteries for him.

But his upbringing and demeanour w/ Kaylee strongly suggest he's a virgin to any sort of emotionally-significant intimacy. Which is a completely different thing.

Nice point further up this thread (I forget who made it, sorry!) that Kaylee is herself insecure with Simon, and a more mature/experienced individual (Inara?) would be able to guide him through his faux-pas rather than overreacting to every real or imagined slight. Personally, I think that just as Simon needs to calm down and adapt to his situation, Kaylee will have to accept Simon for who he is, too, instead of trying to remake him in the image of the world she feels comfortable with. Compromise/understanding on both sides is vital if their relationship is to last.

Same goes for Mal and Inara, of course, but I'm not sure that'd ever happen...

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by liz:
I still think that he's a virgin. He strikes me as the type of guy who would be waiting for the right girl and when he found her, he'd marry her and then they would have all the fun they want! He's always seemed at least respectful of Book's prayers and perhaps more than that. If he was raised with the religion that Book follows then he probably would have been expected to follow the ideals of no sex before marriage. Since Simon has proven himself to be an obedient son (until River was in trouble) i think he would be obedient to the mores of his society in this way as well. After all, just because women (and possibly men) are throwing themselves at him doesn't mean that he would have to give into them.
I know that i'm losing this debate but, in the immortal words of our own Malcolm Reynolds, "May have been the losing side... still not convinced it was the wrong one."

This is kind of on topic and kind of not. Just because the sex is looked down upon, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I attend a Private Catholic High School (though i am not catholic myself) about 1 month into school a girl and her boyfriend were sent away because he had gotten her pregnant, and they were homeschooled until after she'd had the baby. The most interesting thing happened after she had the baby and gave it up for adoption. The entire adult community around our school decided that she was "Such a brave girl" because she had the baby. Its not like she really had any choice. Catholic's don't believe in abortion...but then again...they don't believe in pre-marital sex either.

okay. i'll shut up now.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

RUTHIE

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 11:29 PM

Seems to me that most of the people voting 'No' are thinking whether a character like Simon would be a virgin in our Earth-that-is.
If this had been the question, I think I'd vote 'No' as well. Simon hasn't shown much of the personal belief that makes some people in our world buck the trends (usually strong personal religious faith) - so if he'd been a rich medical student and Doctor in one of our big cities, he'd probably have conformed to our modern 'norm' of serial monogamy.

So the question as I see it is less to do with what Simon is like, and more to do with his society.

Values and expectaions about most things seem to have swung from one extreme to another throughout history, not least in attitudes to sex.
I'd argue that we're nearing the end of a swing towards permissiveness, and that the early to mid Victorian era marked the opposite end of the swing.
I'd say that elite society in the 'verse is somewhere near the end of a swing back to non-permissiveness. (wouldn't like to guess if it's the other end of our present swing, or if there'd been a few more in between).

This is offset by colonies on different worlds having different values.

Don't forget the cowboy influence - when the Wild West was happening in America, 'polite' British society were repressed Victorians (core planets), and the older cities in Eastern America were nearer to the British code than the 'Wild West'.
So the British looked down on all Americans as 'Colonials', and the old families of the East looked down on the rough west.....

I agree that there are some differences in society in the 'verse - Companions being one of them - but I'll leave that for another time...

*******************
Ruthie
*******************
By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)