More about sex and Inara
POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Saturday, August 1, 2009 19:12
VIEWED: 20445
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I don't want to further drag down a fun thread with my “serious” talk 
, so I'll move the tangent here. In the "What song would Inara sing ?" thread ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=38775), this post got me thinking:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Inara actually doesn't strike me as a singer at all. She seems too private and reserved for that, and she enjoys focusing on other people, professionally.
I could more easily see her play piano for someone else's singing, or being a painter/photographer who does artsy portraits.
And here's some of the following exchanges:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Does alternate universe mean alternate characterizations? Cause, gotta say, I agree with AR.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, not really, unless that's the point of the alternate universe, but then why write in the characters at all?
However, Inara could still be the same character in a different job (Even though canon Inara might disagree with me!). I don't know why that's so unreasonable.
Granted, her job is part of what makes the conflict she has with Mal so interesting, and none of that has ever really been resolved, and that's why I like her in it...
But a universe with a superstar songstress/opera singer Inara who wants to live a quiet modest life, but is under increasing stress from her fans and managers could also be an interesting take on the verse.
If she's really high A-list, it could throw in commentary on social class that Firefly and Serenity really only brush the surface of. Increases the gap, if you will, because even though Inara is higher on the social totem pole than most of the Rim, my impression is she's still mostly on the outside looking in at society royalty.
Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
I see what Rouka means, about how reserved Inara is, but I don't think it would entirely preclude her from any kind of performance. That might be part of the duality of her. After all, the Inara we know practices a profession in which she has very intimate contact with her audience, and at the very same time retains her distance and privacy. It might be very intriguing to see on stage. I've been thinking about this, imagining her as a very low-key, restrained presence, perhaps at a piano, but with a voice that communicates so much emotion it's almost mesmerizing...and then offstage she's as buttoned up and reserved as the Inara we know and love. Hearing that voice, wondering at the heart behind it, but never being able to touch it...that's where I'd see our Mal in this AU.
*snip*
All very personal and introspective, I can see her sharing so much with her voice but then insisting on the distance and almost keeping aloof (through diffidence) offstage.
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I find that a fundamental restructuring and simplification of Inara. It reduces her to a female *object* right out of the age of American Idol pop culture. ie: girl innocently practices her art, completely unaware of how her amazing talent makes her inner lovable goddess shine out, and she unwittingly reduces the hero of the tale to a gooey puddle of starry-eyed puppy love...
Sorry. It's just too Disney TV movie for me! (ETA: Wow, wasn't meaning that to be as bitchy as it sounds! Sorry about that.)
And anyway, I really don't see Inara as a performer. She certainly lives in a spotlight, but she very knowingly and intentionally makes use of it to do her job. See, here's the thing: what she does in the public eye does not reveal her true self; it is an act designed to attract and service her clients. In the series, she does calligraphy in private. She doesn't rent out a studio and show her finished work. Similarly, I could see her singing in private, but I don't see her singing with true, heartfelt passion in front an audience. She'd sing publicly only as part of her act, part of her job as a Companion.
Speaking of which: I find it interesting that the AUs discussed in this thread hav
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Quote:It is an interesting parallel - a woman's ownership of her voice as compared to the ownership of her body. Certainly, there's a similarity of theme there. But I didn't see this in the discussion on the other thread (not until the end). What I was responding to was more this idea that Mal will hear Inara sing and therefore be more in love with her. Sure, great romance, but romance that changes her character, is my assertion.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Could Mal dislike Inara sharing herself with fans just as much as he might with clients? Wouldn't Inara be isolated this way, even as her singing tricks her fans into thinking they know her?
And no, I don’t expect most folks to agree. Hence the warning on my post! Really, AR’s post just got me thinking, and it’s been a long time since I had new thoughts about these characters, so I wanted to hear myself talk a bit. And I’m not done listening.
The thing is, singing doesn't compare to whoring as far as challenging people's assumptions. I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara dynamic, I’m talking the relationship between us (the fans and fic writers) and Inara.
One of the most unique aspects of Inara (Kaylee too) is her sexuality. She is openly into sex without being dirty, or lowly, or jaded. I think a lot of fans, as much as we love this show, aren’t uncomfortable [edit: I meant "aren't comfortable" of course!] with this. It's pretty rare that Inara (or Kaylee) play the field for long in fanfic. Come to think of it, I must include myself in this. I didn't put much effort into bringing in new partners for Kaylee or new clients for Inara. Honestly, it would have been hard for me to maintain the ladies' sexual independence and still pursue the S/K and M/I romantic possibilities. Curses! I just have too much monogamy programmed into me, so I reverted to what’s easier to write.
By which I mean to step back and question my own assumptions about women's sexuality. Why must we sanitize Inara (good word!) by making her a singer or shop owner? Why are we so uncomfortable with allowing her to keep her trade, whether in an AU or in our own extensions on the canon verse?
Because sex is a MUCH different thing than singing, that's why. Again, I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara UST, I’m talking our ability to accept Inara (or Kaylee) as she is.
Quote:Not quite. It's not the jealous friction I’m interested in at the moment. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Mal.
I understand WHAT you're driving at, though. You don't like that the sex part of it has been taken out of the equation, because the sex is what makes for a whole lot of fun jealous friction.
Quote:Not trying to. I never said no one should write it, just saying I don’t entirely agree with it and explaining why, because I think character discussions are fun. The tide can flow where it likes, won’t stop my mouth from running in its own direction.
But people are going to write fanfiction, and people are going to dislike Inara's whoring and want to make her into something they find more acceptable. I don't think you can fight the tide.
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Quote:My criticism wasn’t all aimed at you. I’m lazy about quoting one thing to get me going in my rant, then I move on to reply to a lot of stuff, including things not even on the thread. (ie My experience with Inara and Kaylee characterizations in all manner of fics over the past 4 years.) I’m sorry that I made you feel targeted, I didn’t mean it! My post did come off a bit bitchy, didn’t it?
Originally posted by GillianRose:
Mal4Prez, I feel compelled to answer, since I find myself the only one quoted in your post.
Quote:I agree – being exactly that sort myself. But like I replied to Bytemite above, I think there’s a big difference between performing for a crowd and having sex with a unending string of strangers. Big big BIG difference!
There are performers who, no matter the intensity of what they share with their audience, are quite introverted and contemplative off-stage, and not comfortable with sharing themselves personally.
So, without meaning to suggest that your intended fic ideas are bad, I still think there’s a fundamental shift to Inara’s character in changing her from a Companion to a shy, reserved singer.
Uh… Ok, a clever writer could pull it off and even do really cool things with it. But it take some ingenuity!
But if (I'm not at all implying this is true of you Gillian Rose, just talking fic generalities) if the whole point of making Inara a singer is to make Mal fall in love with her more, that’s like Mary Sue 101, is what I’m saying. Or Disney TV movie ick! LOL!
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
[edit]
It is an interesting parallel - a woman's ownership of her voice as compared to the ownership of her body. Certainly, there's a similarity of theme there. But I didn't see this in the discussion on the other thread (not until the end). What I was responding to was more this idea that Mal will hear Inara sing and therefore be more in love with her. Sure, great romance, but romance that changes her character, is my assertion.
And no, I don’t expect most folks to agree. Hence the warning on my post! Really, AR’s post just got me thinking, and it’s been a long time since I had new thoughts about these characters, so I wanted to hear myself talk a bit. And I’m not done listening.
The thing is, singing doesn't compare to whoring as far as challenging people's assumptions. I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara dynamic, I’m talking the relationship between us (the fans and fic writers) and Inara.
One of the most unique aspects of Inara (Kaylee too) is her sexuality. She is openly into sex without being dirty, or lowly, or jaded. I think a lot of fans, as much as we love this show, aren’t uncomfortable with this. It's pretty rare that Inara (or Kaylee) play the field for long in fanfic. Come to think of it, I must include myself in this. I didn't put much effort into bringing in new partners for Kaylee or new clients for Inara. Honestly, it would have been hard for me to maintain the ladies' sexual independence and still pursue the S/K and M/I romantic possibilities. Curses! I just have too much monogamy programmed into me, so I reverted to what’s easier to write.
By which I mean to step back and question my own assumptions about women's sexuality. Why must we sanitize Inara (good word!) by making her a singer or shop owner? Why are we so uncomfortable with allowing her to keep her trade, whether in an AU or in our own extensions on the canon verse?
Because sex is a MUCH different thing than singing, that's why. Again, I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara UST, I’m talking our ability to accept Inara (or Kaylee) as she is.
[edit]
Not quite. It's not the jealous friction I’m interested in at the moment. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Mal.
[edit]
Not trying to. I never said no one should write it, just saying I don’t entirely agree with it and explaining why, because I think character discussions are fun. The tide can flow where it likes, won’t stop my mouth from running in its own direction.
I doubt Inara's singing is ALL that Mal would like about her. My own thinking on that matter is that he's attracted BECAUSE Inara stirs things up for him emotionally, and it's been a long time (pretty much since the war) since he's felt much besides his usual post-war range. That's what I think he likes about her. Her looks, and maybe in this case, her voice, those would all contribute, but even more than that, it's personality, it's how she makes him feel. And I mean that in a number of ways.
That might be off topic too. I'm very skilled at going off topic.
As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so. Using Kaylee's example, she's a mechanic, not a lot of room for being cute, chirpy, and sexual, but Kaylee is that. Inara could easily keep that aspect of her character; she might even stay as liberated as she is as a companion, and have a large number of partners. Often.
But you bring up the "why people sanitize Inara" question. I guess it has to do with our own moral judgment calls; some people just aren't going to be comfortable with Inara unless she's completely monogamous and in "traditional female roles" (of which I don't think there are any).
But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want
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Off topic again, but I have to comment:
This thread title is perfectly engineered to bring in many, many people. :)
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There are so many things that make Inara a fascinating character, it's hard for me to know where to start. There is her work as a Companion - I really like how Morena Baccarin describes it: she's "an ambassador for sex." What's very interesting to me, and intrinsic to Inara as a character, is the orthodoxy of her career within the context of her culture. She's not working outside the law, or even outside the domain of societal approval (I am talking about her culture/society of origin, obviously Companions and their work are not accepted by everyone and Inara is well aware of this). Book describes her as "respectable" in The Train Job. Inara is a highly skilled professional working in a career that requires rigorous, thorough, and continuing education (Companions "never stop practicing...not a true Companion"). We hear her describe her shuttle as a consecrated space; we hear references to a House Priestess. From this I infer that there is a strong spiritual component to Companion training and work. When I see her talking post-intercourse with Fes Higgins, I am reminded of a therapist, clergy, or very trusted advisor. She is the epitome of cultured, elegant beauty at the ball with Atherton Wing - she makes him look good, tactless, violent dolt that he is. And sex work, described as "the art of love" in the Blu Ray Companion documents, is centrai to her work. Inara is clearly a highly capable and intelligent individual. Her intelligence and accomplishments, her place within an established order like the Guild, make her interestingly similar to Book and Simon. One could surmise that she had any number of career paths open to her, and she chose to be a Companion. To me, this illuminates both the character of Inara and the idea of the Companion. She's a sex worker. In what way is she also like clergy? In what way is she also like a therapist, either for mental/emotional issues or like the massage therapist I go to when I'm out of alignment and in pain? Is she at times an entertainer, someone who provides an enjoyable experience? Does she serve needs or desires? Art, beauty, love, communication, connection, intimacy, excitement, mystery...what do human beings really need? What can we do without? These are some of the questions that Inara and Firefly make me think about. This is why I love her, and the 'verse Joss created.
I don't imagine someone of Inara's capabilities and wisdom would choose, and persist in a career that she didn't enjoy, that didn't give her professional satisfaction. It's a deep human need, to do meaningful work. I admire Inara for being a hard-working professional, in the best sense of the word. She is a professional: she has a well-defined sense of who she is and the work that she does. She doesn't let the circumstances around her, the people who fail to appreciate her, influence her into being less than she is, than she has chosen to be. Her dignified constancy in the face of Higgins' rude bluster, as a response to her client from the pilot, even when Atherton Wing has expressed a wish to maim and starve her - it's admirable, it's beautiful. I love her for it. Joss has said that it's very easy for people to change for the worse, usually in response to the people around them. Inara doesn't do this, I would say, because of her very strong conviction about who she is and what she does. She's a hero. To me.
All this being said, Companions retire. Joss says so. I don't buy the fics that have Inara ocntinue to be a Companion because that's "all she knows, that's all she's ever imagined herself to be." From the little we know about the Guild, I infer that some Companions stay within the Guild in some capacity (House Priestess?) for their entire professional careers. We know that Inara had considered that, but that now, for whatever reason, she's on a different path. I don't have a problem with a story in which Inara retires and goes on to another career, one that better suits her, what is important to her, and what she wants to do with her life at that time. It's
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Quote:LOL! But off-topic is the source of much goodness.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
That might be off topic too. I'm very skilled at going off topic.
Anyway, what you say about Mal's attraction to Inara is quite nice. I don't often put much thought into what exactly it is about her that gets to him. As you say, it certainly is something besides her good looks. Her soothing presence has to be welcome to him. Even if she's not always so soothing LOL!
Quote:But Inara is different from Kaylee in that she doesn't have affairs for her own fun. A music star who sleeps around for her own amusement is very different from a counselor/care-taker/escort who includes sex in her services.
As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so.
Sex is not just sex for Inara. It's not something she does for her own physical pleasure. It's a tool she uses to fulfill the needs of others. So maybe (uh, making this up as I go) sex itself is not the point for Inara - the reason for the sex is what defines her.
Quote:
But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want to tone down her liberated side to extrapolate on her sweeter side, and make her fit better into their established conceptions.
I can totally see that. It is easier, and much funner, to make the ladies sweet and non-controversal. Avoid the pesky issues that Inara's a whore and Kaylee's easy.
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GR:
Whoa. Good post.
Much to think about!
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You guys are so cool. I haven't seen as enjoyable Inara discussions in a long while.
In terms of sanitizing Inara... painfully common. There is a substantial majority of writers and fanfic that drive me to distraction with what I guess has been called anti-feminist backlash. It burns.
And I agree with Mal4Prez that singing and sex just don't make a good equivalent in terms of transgressing comfort zones. Altering her job in any way, really, is cheating because it removes the one, fundamental conflict between them, basically handing victory to Mal, either by making someone else the bad guy (Evil Guild) or lobotomizing Inara (I don't mind giving up my job!).
The thing that I have trouble dealing with sometimes is my suspicion that although Joss created this character that was a revelation to me, I don't trust that even he would have allowed her to stick to her job without the ultimate "punishment" of losing love in the process. Or just not resolving the conflict at all by distracting from it with her big secret.
It's always my greatest happiness when someone seriously deals with Mal and Inara without eliminating her job, truly working on a compromise, or at least really aknowledging the cost of changing the status quo, in terms of their conflict still needing resolution. It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:But Inara is different from Kaylee in that she doesn't have affairs for her own fun. A music star who sleeps around for her own amusement is very different from a counselor/care-taker/escort who includes sex in her services.
As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so.
Sex is not just sex for Inara. It's not something she does for her own physical pleasure. It's a tool she uses to fulfill the needs of others. So maybe (uh, making this up as I go) sex itself is not the point for Inara - the reason for the sex is what defines her.
Is it? I don't think Inara would have involved herself with Atherton in Shindig if she had found out the last couple of times he contracted her that he was a chauvinistic pig. Inara accepted Atherton's bid for her company over apparently an awkward young man, likely first-timer, much like Fess Higgins. And I think Inara did that because she wanted to have a good time, relax, and go to a party. And in War Stories, when Kaylee wishes Inara luck with her "Have good sex!" line, Inara didn't get all uppity about her profession and the spiritual side then. I imagine the conversations she has with Kaylee are often about what they enjoy in that capacity.
I think Inara enjoys sex, and enjoys multiple partners. I don't think she could perform her job and not feel "easy" or taken advantage of if she were wired any other way.
Quote:Quote:
But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want to tone down her liberated side to extrapolate on her sweeter side, and make her fit better into their established conceptions.
I can totally see that. It is easier, and much funner, to make the ladies sweet and non-controversal. Avoid the pesky issues that Inara's a whore and Kaylee's easy.
Or they could just like writing Disney-esque fluff. Primitive as fairy tales are and the bothersome roles in them, what's charming about them is that they are fun and simple. I haven't grown up so much that I can't enjoy them, though that one part of my mind does still keep saying "I really wish the girl would make a stand here." But in recent years, pop-culture has been putting more spunk in their Princesses, and I appreciate that.
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One of the things I love about Joss is his ability to take overused, groan worthy ideas and put them right in his stories and make them more. The surprise little sister. The baby son who in the course of one season becomes the ass-kicking teenaged hottie rebel. The robot. The inexplicable musical. The oops-I'm-married. And I really enjoy the noir aspects of Firefly as much as the Western aspects. So I bet it could be done, a Mal's Cafe Americain...maybe just AU it to the degree that Companions exist in pre-Castro Havana or Roaring 20's Chicago or the South Pacific or wherever. She comes to the bar, although she clearly doesn't belong, and Mal doesn't know why. She won't say. She brings in too many customers for him to put his foot down over whatever transgressive behavior (in his eyes) she commits. She keeps him in the black (hehee).
Here is something I just started thinking about: secret or forbidden knowledge. River has it. Book has it. In Mal's eyes, Inara has it (her wiles) and would continue to have it even if she were no longer a practicing Companion. I think of Inara as a pan-disciplinary scholar of human sexuality. There are situations in which using her knowledge is the right thing to do, the moral thing to do. More on this later, it's a fic idea I started and then an anvil fell on it. Forbidden/secret knowledge - talk amongst yourselves.
Also, what about a story of Inara retiring and regretting it?
Kaylee's not easy! I will not call anyone bitchy (it's been too much used to try to shame opinionated women) and I will say that "easy" is a cad's word. I'm not complaining, M4P, I read the affection in that sentence. Here's what Kaylee is to me: MMMMMSEX! She, unlike several people on the ship (I'm looking at you, Mal, Simon, Book, and even you, off-duty Inara, where Mal is concerned) is not in the business of pretending she doesn't have urges. She's not in the business of pretending that a sweet, hot man she meets doesn't have lips and hands and good smelling skin and yes! fun man parts. Jewel calls her a floozy who wears her heart on her sleeve. MMMMMMMSEX!
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Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.
And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.
Heads should roll
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What I'd really like to see is a fic where Mal and Inara start a physical relationship, Inara sticks to her job, Mal's okay with it and it's no biggy (kinda like when she left:) after all it's only business, like she says, and he needs to keep Serenity flying, and Inara is the one who is somewhat bothered by Mal's acceptance and
encouragement. I wonder how that would make her feel about his feelings for her and her job? Are they genuine or not? Would she still love him and have respect for him? How would she react to him having another, like Nandi?
Is it harder on the sex worker or the lover of the sex worker?
Talk about emotionally messy, no wonder the Guild retires Companions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.
And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.
Heads should roll
Not really...
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2914003/1/
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2919770/1/Repercussions
These two are the best examples I've ever seen. The two of them have compromised, but OH HOLY GRAVY, it's all hurty in the right places.
But isn't that what a relationship is? Compromise?
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.
And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.
Heads should roll
I disagree. In "Heart of Gold" he was about to declare his feelings to Inara, job or not, and I doubt it was going to be followed by "But only if you quit the life you love".
Inara wouldn't ask that of Mal (and if she did, she'd be villified like nobody's business) but Mal asking it of Inara is somehow the expected thing. Because it's kinda difficult for him. Oh no. Can't have that.
It's like Mal4Prez says, she's not sleeping with her clients for physical pleasure or personal intimacy. It's her job and profession. It's not "sharing" her in those respects.
It's not a lobotomy if it's compromise. I'm sure there's a way the two could meet in the middle. Maybe fewer clients. Maybe a mutually agreed time limit. Something other than the automatic "She must quit her job".
Would it be the relationship Mal dreamed of having when he was young and imagining his future? Probably not. But it's also not what Inara imagined for her future. The two can only exist in the form of a compromise and it'd only be fair for the two of them to move toward one another, not for Inara to make one giant sacrifice and Mal... nothing.
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Quote:
The two can only exist in the form of a compromise and it'd only be fair for the two of them to move toward one another, not for Inara to make one giant sacrifice and Mal... nothing.
Yeah it doesn't sound particularly fair when you put it like that. But then again companions must be prepared to retire early and move on - they're going to have to find new paths in their lives going into their 30s or 40s anyway right (or perhaps earlier if they want a family)?
I have to admit Inara is a bit of a mystery to me, why she does the job she does - if I fully understood that then I would confidently suggest other ways she could fulfil her life...
For example if she enjoys nurturing and helping people she could become a teacher of some kind. But if she just enjoys sex with different people and doesn't want to give that up - well how is that a different requirement to what we would typically all expect from someone we're entering into a relationship with - a commitment to monogamy?
You women are sensitive about 'a woman having to give up her job', but this is a special situation, it's not often that a job cuts right through the confines of a relationship like this.
I like this question that platonist posed: "Would she still love him and have respect for him?"
I guess we're asking 'is monogamy a noble instinct?' - or one we should sometimes have to transcend/rise above? Hmm.
Bytemite I'll check out those fanfics later.
Heads should roll
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Jayne was right when he said that his lifestyle is short-lived. As Mal gets older, one day perhaps after a good score, he will want to or have to leave outer space to go plant roots somewhere. Maybe a nice ranch or farm. Who better to have at your side in a new life than Inara. I think she's getting bored and dis-illusioned with her so-called glamorous life. She yearns to wear an old pair of space jeans, and to share a simple and joyous life with Mal and their kids.
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I agree that Mal's lifestyle is not one that would get easier to sustain as the years go on. And, I could see Inara leaving Sihnon due to some restlessness, some kind of wanting to explore other life possibilities. Maybe she wasn't leading a fulfilling life on Sihnon - her private reaction in the pilot when her young client is gushing about it says a lot to me. But I think leaving Serenity and settling anywhere would be a tremendously difficult step for Mal - he wants to be able to keep one step away from the Alliance, and he's already lost one home. And when I watch the episodes I see Inara yearning, yes, for Mal, but I don't see her expressing frustration or feeling constrained by her career or the attendant glamour. I think she's proud of herself and her accomplishments, and it may be the case that she enjoys dressing elegantly and surrounding herself with beauty. Some women do, and that's not an illegitimate choice, or one that speaks poorly of her character.
And yes, Inara would be a great partner to have at your side making a home and raising a family. Would Mal, the Mal Inara knows?
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Quote:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2914003/1/
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2919770/1/Repercussions
Very good fanfics Byte, espec. the first one. They seem quite faithful to the depth of the situation - the difficulty in this relationship isn't going to go away or solve itself. But I guess Joss wrote in that difficulty purposefully, so that it would take several tortuous series of the show to finally get to a happy ending of some sort - if we were lucky.
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Maybe fewer clients.
Maybe only women? Nah - perhaps if Mal was Wash, or Jayne (of course), that might be a mutually acceptable compromise. But he's Mal, and even if he could, we shouldn't want him to change.
"I gave her my heart, but she wanted my soul..."
Heads should roll
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If you know how to write it, there is no way either Mal OR Inara can be lobotomized. Joss made sure of that, because the situation is just COMPLICATED.
I pretty much see this as the way they'll inevitably go. It's the only way that Joss can really address the issues that the Guild introduces between them. And it's also the only way they can be in a relationship and both remain in character.
However... I have no problem seeing Inara go into another career, especially if it's one that reinforces the skills and feminine power that she brings to the crew as a Companion. I've always thought that Inara could make a very good politician. Or, in the script for Trash, and hints in The Message, I see a lot of foreshadowing that Inara might actually be willing to take up a criminal lifestyle.
If Inara were to go criminal, would she take up a distraction role? Or would that betray the principles of using her sexuality for healing and good?
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Originally posted by GillianRose:
And yes, Inara would be a great partner to have at your side making a home and raising a family. Would Mal, the Mal Inara knows?
He's been pretty good at raising a family already, dontcha know. Buuuut... He probably would need a little work. Pulling a gun on Jayne at the dinner table might work on the ship, but it's really not going to fly with a five year old. Mal's got some issues, and yeah, I think he'd have to mellow out some and let go of some bitterness and anger before he could seriously attempt to settle down anywhere.
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Originally posted by kpo:
Yeah it doesn't sound particularly fair when you put it like that. But then again companions must be prepared to retire early and move on - they're going to have to find new paths in their lives going into their 30s or 40s anyway right (or perhaps earlier if they want a family)?
You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.
As for age, I agree that at some point a new path is required, but Inara's maybe 27 and has lots of time before her 40's. Quitting now would be a big choice, and unfair to just expect.
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I have to admit Inara is a bit of a mystery to me, why she does the job she does - if I fully understood that then I would confidently suggest other ways she could fulfil her life...
But you're willing to allow that she loves her job and enjoys it, yes? Even if you don't understand why? That's a very refreshing attitude. Many people just project their own discomfort onto her and assume she must secretly hate her job and its lifestyle.
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For example if she enjoys nurturing and helping people she could become a teacher of some kind. But if she just enjoys sex with different people and doesn't want to give that up - well how is that a different requirement to what we would typically all expect from someone we're entering into a relationship with - a commitment to monogamy?
You discount that she is not having sex with them because "she enjoys sex with different people" recreationally. Sex is a part of what she does. Her job, in its entirety, the things she was so highly trained to do exceptionally well, is what she enjoys, including using sex.
You can't just replace that with a generic "helping people" ersatz profession like teaching. Teaching what? Give one-hour lessons in tea ceremony on planets where the crew has work? Very fulfilling.
Is sex had professionally, without the incentive of physical recreation or emotional intimacy, with both partners knowing about it, really the same break of monogamy that adultery is, or that a multiple partner relationship would be?
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You women are sensitive about 'a woman having to give up her job', but this is a special situation, it's not often that a job cuts right through the confines of a relationship like this.
I actually think it's not just "us women" who are sensitive about being expected to give up a fulfilling career. ANYone would be. It's a human thing, not a woman thing.
So they are in a special situation. So are military spouses. Either you love the person enough to accept their difficult profession and make it work, or you don't. I honestly think Mal has it in him. Just like many many military spouses out there. And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way, what with absences, the stress of uncertainty, perhaps mental and physical trauma or death on the menue.
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I like this question that platonist posed: "Would she still love him and have respect for him?"
I really think so. It's not at all the same thing as Mal going off and finding himself someone else to shag and be emotionally intimate with. THAT would break monogamy for certain. It's also not the same thing as expecting Mal to swallow THAT.
This is her profession. Mal being generous and brave enough to give her that freedom... how could she not love him and respect him for it?
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I guess we're asking 'is monogamy a noble instinct?' - or one we should sometimes have to transcend/rise above? Hmm.
Sure it's a noble instinct. Jealousy is natural and painful, you can't just control it easily, monogamy is a semi-natural solution to that. Mutual sacrifice of promiscuity for the sake of committment.
But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love. Would it be easy for Mal? Not really. But Mal himself isn't an
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I noticed your post in the other thread, AR, and felt the need to reply.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Now that I know the true nature of the AU, I'm actually kind of starting to like the idea.
It takes on a whole new significance if in this dream, Mal imagines Inara as a singer rather than, say, a prostitute hanging out at the bar.
In a sweet way, it implies that what Mal really sees as standing between them is a social barrier of some sort, not misgivings about Inara's sexual profession. Inara elevated on stage level (Pedestal? Idealising Inara by completely separating the "real" her from her dirty, dirty job?), Mal on the floor below, lured in by her mysterious siren song, helpless to escape impending doom (Wiles! Scary wiles!).
I bet he sees himself this way some days, an unwitting victim of this love that somehow happened to him against his will. Not all days, but some.
Cool.
Yep! All the signs are there that it's really not her profession at all.
Pilot episode. Calls her a whore to her face (and to the Shepherd's), but when she's away, he's calling her job the only honest one of everyone on Serenity.
Or the way he understands that the people of Triumph aren't her "clientele," that's a comment on her social station as he perceives it.
He thinks ALL of her clients aren't worthy of her. And he's pretty sure he's not either. This is shown in Our Mrs. Reynold's in how he completely overlooks a more likely explanation for Inara being drugged in favour of her kissing Saffron. The other possibility probably doesn't even occur to him, and if it did, he must have dismissed it as completely ludicrous.
Shindig really brings this out, if you know where to look for it. As does, I think, Heart of Gold, in Mal's reasons for sleeping with Nandi when both of them recognize his feelings for Inara.
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It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
But it's very hard to talk about Inara WITHOUT talking about Mal and her tricky relationship with him.
Thankfully, I think that's more of a shipper thing than that one feminism violating rule, you know, where supposedly women can't have a conversation without talking about men?
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I noticed your post in the other thread, AR, and felt the need to reply.Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Now that I know the true nature of the AU, I'm actually kind of starting to like the idea.
It takes on a whole new significance if in this dream, Mal imagines Inara as a singer rather than, say, a prostitute hanging out at the bar.
In a sweet way, it implies that what Mal really sees as standing between them is a social barrier of some sort, not misgivings about Inara's sexual profession. Inara elevated on stage level (Pedestal? Idealising Inara by completely separating the "real" her from her dirty, dirty job?), Mal on the floor below, lured in by her mysterious siren song, helpless to escape impending doom (Wiles! Scary wiles!).
I bet he sees himself this way some days, an unwitting victim of this love that somehow happened to him against his will. Not all days, but some.
Cool.
Yep! All the signs are there that it's really not her profession at all.
Pilot episode. Calls her a whore to her face (and to the Shepherd's), but when she's away, he's calling her job the only honest one of everyone on Serenity.
Or the way he understands that the people of Triumph aren't her "clientele," that's a comment on her social station as he perceives it.
He thinks ALL of her clients aren't worthy of her. And he's pretty sure he's not either. This is shown in Our Mrs. Reynold's in how he completely overlooks a more likely explanation for Inara being drugged in favour of her kissing Saffron. The other possibility probably doesn't even occur to him, and if it did, he must have dismissed it as completely ludicrous.
Shindig really brings this out, if you know where to look for it. As does, I think, Heart of Gold, in Mal's reasons for sleeping with Nandi when both of them recognize his feelings for Inara.
I agree with this. :) (Not sure about the HoG thing, as I'm particularly particular about that eppy, but the rest, yes.)
Which is really why I think Mal IS capable of accepting her job, much more easily than the fandom is ready to accept. I don't think it wouldn't be a problem at all, it is something he has to admit to himself, but I think it's very possible and it would be healthy, in a way, for him to do so.
I like M4P's take on his own self-depreciation there, as she wrote it in "Easy Tickets". Zoe advising Mal to get over his fear of not being good enough. I think part of him is afraid of discovering that he is, indeed, incapable of being happy if he gives it a try. There's as much emotional cowardice in his pushing Inara away as is in Inara's "running away", if not more.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
But it's very hard to talk about Inara WITHOUT talking about Mal and her tricky relationship with him.
Thankfully, I think that's more of a shipper thing than that one feminism violating rule, you know, where supposedly women can't have a conversation without talking about men?
Totally guilty here.
In my defense, it is kinda hard to follow up on GillianRose's long post up there. Kinda says it all. And eloquently, too.
Inara's profession is a brilliant choice on Joss's part, in that it poses so many questions about things we are so used to questioning that we forget our own prejudices. Wealth, sexuality, solitude.
At the same time, all these questions are also sincerely undermined by immediately connecting Inara to Mal and Mal's Opinions(tm) without having the opportunity to see more of her perspective. It's all immediately muddled by a very visceral conflict without allowing her to shine independently, establish herself as solid and whole.
This vastly amplifies people's gut reaction to see Inara's job as a negative obstacle. In a way, I think they judge her rejection of romantic love much more harshly than they judge the sexual aspect of her job.
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Quote:Was I? I think you mistook me. Why back at the top of the thread I said a lot about Inara, which you applied to the M/I relationship. You misunderstood my meaning, so I clarified. It wasn't meant to be any kind of thread-wide rule.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
I don't think that having a feminist discussion means that men and relationships can't enter the conversation. Of course they can, and should! But I would like to be able to discuss Inara's personality without having my own statements boiled down to: "Of course - it's all about making HIM jealous". That completely missed the point I was trying to make!
I do understand what you mean about it being hard to talk about Inara without bringing up Mal. I used to feel like that - in fact, I never really talked about Inara. I'd only get to her after starting with a Mal discussion. But in the past year or so I've become more interested in Inara as an individual, and more than half of a relationship. She's really quite complex and hard to figure. So I guess I am not so into talking Mal at this point, but it's not out of any kind of feminist rule (as if there is such a thing!) It's more about focusing on a single character without being distracted.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Was I? I think you mistook me. Why back at the top of the thread I said a lot about Inara, which you applied to the M/I relationship. You misunderstood my meaning, so I clarified. It wasn't meant to be any kind of thread-wide rule.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
I don't think that having a feminist discussion means that men and relationships can't enter the conversation. Of course they can, and should! But I would like to be able to discuss Inara's personality without having my own statements boiled down to: "Of course - it's all about making HIM jealous". That completely missed the point I was trying to make!
I do understand what you mean about it being hard to talk about Inara without bringing up Mal. I used to feel like that - in fact, I never really talked about Inara. I'd only get to her after starting with a Mal discussion. But in the past year or so I've become more interested in Inara as an individual, and more than half of a relationship. She's really quite complex and hard to figure. So I guess I am not so into talking Mal at this point, but it's not out of any kind of feminist rule (as if there is such a thing!) It's more about focusing on a single character without being distracted.
That, um, wasn't really what I was saying either. I don't think Inara is trying to make Mal jealous, in fact her life would be a lot easier if he WASN'T jealous.
I was saying that the jealousy is a fun consequence of their relationship, and I think it's partially what keeps us fans hooked.
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And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way
No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.
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But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love.
It doesn't ruin it, but it does diminish and taint it, in some people's eyes - even if less so than straightforward adultery, and perhaps more so than ordinary prostitution (where the intimacy may be just on a physical level).
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he can work on wrapping his head around what Inara's work really is and tolerating her doing it.
He could learn to respect the companion profession but still not be happy for his partner to be one, that's not the same.
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You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.
It depends on the typical Alliance planet man I guess. Maybe the majority wouldn't mind at all a partner being a practicing companion - is that a 'higher' mindset in your view?
Heads should roll
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Not necessarily a higher mindset, but more simply a practicality of the profession.
French courtesans often had a husband and children on the side while servicing their patrons. Their prostitution was a necessary source of income, and the family of the courtesan had to be understanding, tolerant, and flexible in order to make the situation work.
Perhaps this is an entirely different range of problem in your view, but I think the above applies to a number of problems that might be encountered in any relationship.
Lastly, prostitution might diminish the "quality" of the relationship in the eyes of others, but so long as the partners in question don't see their relationship as diminished, does it really matter?
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but so long as the partners in question don't see their relationship as diminished, does it really matter?
No, but if one of the persons within the relationship does see it that way, can he change that? You are carving up and modifying Mal's soul if you change his straightforward, uncomplicated and possessive way of being in love. A beautiful aspect of his soul, no less.
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French courtesans often had a husband and children on the side while servicing their patrons. Their prostitution was a necessary source of income, and the family of the courtesan had to be understanding, tolerant, and flexible in order to make the situation work.
Inara isn't doing it to suppport a family, it's more voluntary in her situation, like a lifestyle choice. If it was necessary though, to feed starving children or whatever, perhaps we should expect Mal to assent to it - but never to be happy about it. People can be too enlightened.
Heads should roll
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Why does it have to change Mal's perspective at all?
I'm sure plenty of couples disapprove of the occupation of their partner, and there may even be hurt feelings about it, but that doesn't necessarily prevent them from staying together. Or make them care about the other any less.
If Inara were to stay on Serenity I assume she would want to have a job where she could contribute to Serenity's income, because they aren't exactly a rich bunch. This would likely be in the form of Inara insisting on continuing to pay rent. If Inara has a job, and stays on Serenity, I would assume she is doing whatever job that might be to help support the crew/her family.
As such, if she stays on Serenity and begins a relationship, but she still is a companion, I would guess the money she makes as a companion would contribute to the income of the crew. And therefore, she would continue practicing as a companion to support her family.
Unless we decide to make Inara completely out of character, and she keeps all of her money selfishly to herself.
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I would write it that Inara has some money saved up, say 6 months rent or something - and she insists on paying it even though Mal tries to stop her. But basically there is long enough for another career path to present itself.
This is me writing to make things smooth and agreeable and happy, Joss no doubt had other happenstances in mind.
"Why does it have to change Mal's perspective at all?"
I don't think we can, or should. But how much does it poison the relationship if Inara keeps companioning? I don't think Mal could take it, and consequently I don't think Inara could do it.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way
No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.
For those who can deal with it, it doesn't. For those who can't, it certainly does. It's, as you say, "some people's eyes", that make all the difference. Individual circumstances.
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But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love.
It doesn't ruin it, but it does diminish and taint it, in some people's eyes - even if less so than straightforward adultery, and perhaps more so than ordinary prostitution (where the intimacy may be just on a physical level).
But the intimacy is just on a physical level. Inara hardly bares her soul to her clients.
No one is asking Mal to grin and bear it if he can't, but you seem to be arguing against him even trying to consider it, because "some people" may see things a certain way.
What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.
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he can work on wrapping his head around what Inara's work really is and tolerating her doing it.
He could learn to respect the companion profession but still not be happy for his partner to be one, that's not the same.
I doubt Inara is extremely happy about Mal's profession, either, you know?
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You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.
It depends on the typical Alliance planet man I guess. Maybe the majority wouldn't mind at all a partner being a practicing companion - is that a 'higher' mindset in your view?
It's not about "higher mindsets", I'm not trying to set up universal rules and standards. It's about individual people dealing with extraordinary circumstances in a way that breaches "normal" expectations. I doubt it'd be a rule in the Core, either.
The thing is, Mal and Inara are both people with extraordinary jobs and lives, and in order to be a couple and share the love they have for each other, they have to accept each other, problematic as they both may be. If Inara wants to be with Mal, she has to deal with his dangerous jobs, his occasional awful temper, the general instability and poverty of his life. If Mal wants to be with Inara, he has to deal with her sarcasm, her differing political background and her job. They are both proud people who don't respond well to pressure, so demanding change from either one of them would probably not end well. It's a much less damaging strategy for both of them to try and change themselves and accept each other, than it is to insist on their own way.
And I think they are both smart enough to know that.
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Quote:I may be just repeating what Bytemite and AR said, but the "some people's eyes" is key here. In some people's eyes, military is indeed a deal breaker. My nephew decided to join the army last year and his fiance didn't go for that. They broke up. OK, there was more to it, but that's what did them in. And yet, plenty of military spouses are fine with their lives. It all depends on the people involved.
Originally posted by kpo:
No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.
So the issue here isn't in "some people's" eyes, it's in Mal's and Inara's eyes. The hard thing is to sort these characters out without tainting them with our own biases. It's a very hard thing. Impossible, probably. But I'm guessing that if we start saying they'll do *this* or *that* because it's the obvious thing that most people would do, we're probably straying from canon and into our own inclinations and beliefs.
So, based on canon, do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?
(BTW I forgot to say - Bytemite, excellent fics you referenced. I especially liked the first.)
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Originally, I was only going to post the first one, because I think it's the best too.
But I realized that just as much as making unbelievable compromises for the sake of writing a ship can lobotomize a character, sometimes characters can be lobotomized by getting their way, too. Inara continuing on blissfully unaware of, unconcerned about, or unsympathetic to Mal's hurt over her profession is as out of character as Inara tossing away her lifestyle because it doesn't mean anything to her or she secretly doesn't like it.
And the second one I think shows an Inara who wants her life and is entirely justified in not wanting to give it up, but who is torn because she does care about Mal and knows how miserable it makes him. The second story is a good example of Inara not being lobotomized, just like the first story is a good example of Mal not being lobotomized.
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So, based on canon, do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?
AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession, before she pushed him away again.
Mal's been noted to have intimacy issues. It was by Wash, and Wash was pretty mad at him, but I think that does ring true a bit. If Inara hadn't been a companion, but still elegant and classy, and if, in the beginning, she had been just as scintillating, and less discouraging, would Mal have gone for her then? I don't think so.
I think, after the war he probably holds himself back and puts up walls that so far only his crew had gotten through. I think he would have distrusted the way she seemed attracted to him, much like I think he'd distrust the attraction if she ever showed him any interest in the canon universe.
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So the issue here isn't in "some people's" eyes, it's in Mal's and Inara's eyes.
When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature.
A military career undoubtedly can put an external strain on a relationship, but it doesn't cut to the heart of the relationship itself like sex with other people, and how that would shatter the sense of personal, private intimacy that a monogamistic person feels. A military career demands sacrifice from the partner but leaves love intact, a companion career for a monogamistic partner means a tainting/tarnishing of the love he feels. But I better stop hammering away on this issue, I won't fight the whole military comparison anymore.
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do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?
You're hinting at male pride, or something...? For sure, that's likely to be a factor, especially with Jayne on board the ship, poor Mal. But strip all that away and it would still hurt him, Inara companioning with other men. What do you mean make the effort? That second fic is perhaps the best case scenario in terms of Mal being a gentleman about things, but it's only going to end in bitter regret - since the relationship is doomed anyway Inara is best just to end it beforehand. Mal being a gentleman and Inara letting him means they both get poisoned with bitterness, resentment, regret.
I think the best Mal can do is acknowledge the sacrifice, if Inara is prepared to make it. Undoubtedly it's Mal's hang up, and Inara's sacrifice. But it's not an unreasonable hang up, Mal doesn't need to 'grow' or be enlightened in any way, and we shouldn't want to lobotomise him or change him into a more modern and 'open-minded' alliance planet guy.
AR,
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What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.
Fair point, there is opportunity for resentment there - it depends on how Mal acts, whether he appreciates the sacrifice; and circumstance - whether Inara is able to find another calling in life that will compensate her lost one. I think if I were to write a fic on this I would consider one set at some point in the future where Mal and the firefly crew have enjoyed good times financially and it becomes time to start thinking about settling down into a more peaceful and stable way of life. Mal would be reluctant to give up his life on Serenity but he realises he now probably owes it to Inara and the kids, after she made the sacrifice before.
Heads should roll
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AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession,
Are you sure? I thought he was just being 'truthsome' and putting it all out in the open.
Heads should roll
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The way it was acted, Inara seems to interrupt Mal. I do think the suggestion Joss makes in his directing is that Mal was about to say more. What else would he have to be truthsome about but his feelings, considering the subject of their conversation? I think at that point he was about to make a commitment to be with her despite her profession.
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Well all right, perhaps - but I think it would be a fateful mistake if she went with it!
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I think the best Mal can do is acknowledge the sacrifice, if Inara is prepared to make it. Undoubtedly it's Mal's hang up, and Inara's sacrifice.
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.Quote:
But it's not an unreasonable hang up, Mal doesn't need to 'grow' or be enlightened in any way, and we shouldn't want to lobotomise him or change him into a more modern and 'open-minded' alliance planet guy.
I guess that's where we part ways, as well.
I think Mal has some sincere growing to do. He's far from perfect, domineering and deeply emotionally insecure. The entire way he is acting with Inara is deeply juvenile (she is, too.), which is cute to watch but not exactly healthy for either of them. Mal opening himself up to for once take a step down and try to adjust to someone else, as opposed to "My ship, my rules!" and being confrontational with every other person on the planet... well, it would be growth toward greater maturity.And where do you get this idea from that Mal accepting Inara is supposed to be the icon of modernism and equals Alliance? Who here declared that most Alliance men would be fine with this? No one. It's, and I've said this before, not about conforming to some standard, it's about an individual solution for both of them.
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman? Because you can understand Mal's side of things but not understand Inara's? Is it that easy for you?
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AR,Quote:
What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.
Fair point, there is opportunity for resentment there - it depends on how Mal acts, whether he appreciates the sacrifice; and circumstance - whether Inara is able to find another calling in life that will compensate her lost one.
You always describe Inara's feelings about her job as replacable. Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility, yet you talk about finding a new "calling" as though it were that easy. it diminishes the sacrifice you're asking of her, indeed.
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I think if I were to write a fic on this I would consider one set at some point in the future where Mal and the firefly crew have enjoyed good times financially and it becomes time to start thinking about settling down into a more peaceful and stable way of life. Mal would be reluctant to give up his life on Serenity but he realises he now probably owes it to Inara and the kids, after she made the sacrifice before.
Big sacrifice, if money and advancing age and CHILDREN make it almost a necessity. Besides, we don't know if Inara wants to settle down somewhere, or where. A nice little farm, where she would be just as out of place as she would be jobless on Serenity? Where's the benefit for Inara? I don't see one. Seems like a pointless non-sacrifice if it doesn't consider what Inara would want out of life. How about she gets to do her job while he gets to do his and when they settle down, they both give up their former lives?
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Quote:Oh, I think the second fic had good plottiness, it just had more melodrama which I liked less. The simplicity and brevity of the Mal POV fic was quite nice. (Says the author of a gazillion word fic that still hasn't gotten to the damned point LOL!)
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Originally, I was only going to post the first one, because I think it's the best too.
Quote:Whoa - complete with profession? Says who? Sure enough, he was about to say he felt something for her, but there's nothing to suggest he meant to offer full acceptance of her job. Could well be that his message would have been: Dammit, I don't like what you do and can't see how anything could really work between us, but I got these feelings and I'm all moody and just can't keep quiet anymore...
AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession, before she pushed him away again.
I'm not saying that was his intent, only that you're making a big assumption. He was ready to own up to being attracted to her, profession and all, but that doesn't mean full acceptance.
KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."
And I'm asking why you see him that way. As Bytemite points out, Mal clearly has problems with intimacy. There's plenty in the show to back that up. But intimacy and sex are not the same thing.
So what are his problems with sex? Does he really have problems with it? What I was hinting at wasn't male pride, I was trying to get at the root of this idea that Mal believes in strict monogamy and puts almost puritanical limits on sex. What proof of this is there in the show?
I would argue that it's pretty much the opposite - he's accepting of sex, even as a business trade. His "whore" name-calling of Inara seems a defense mechanism to piss her off and keep her at a distance, because when she's not around he's quite respectful of her. He's also pretty friendly with other whores, has no problem with Kaylee's method of joining the crew, doesn't try to control Jayne, doesn't even warn Simon off of Kaylee when he finds them all cuddled up and hungover. Mal has sex with Nandi and would have done it with Saffron too. In fact, his hang up with Saffron was based in his belief that she wasn't empowered and aware of what she was doing. It had nothing to do with a fear that sex belonged only in monogamous marriage.
So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.
Just pointing out here that I'm not in 100% agreement with M4P.
While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed. He's quite passive about sex, and not at all light-hearted. To be honest, I'm still not sure whether he would have really gone through with sleeping with Saffron. I'm on the fence about it. Either way, he's more on the old-fashioned, traditional side than, say, Wash.
I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.
However, I absolutely do see where KPO is coming from in terms of Mal struggling with a traditional definition of monogamy in relation to Inara's job. Where I disagree with him is Mal's ability to overcome it through really reflecting on what Inara's job entails - and what not - and letting go of some of his own expectations, just like Inara would.
In terms of the HoG aborted declaration.. open to some interpretation, sure. But a speech starting with "I'm not looking for anything from you. I'm just just feeling kind of truthsome right now. Life is too short for ifs and maybes." - would that lead to "I like you. But your jobs means we can never be together. Just wanted to let you know"? Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Throwing it out there with an in-built caveat would just lead to more confusion, ifs and maybes and pain. I don't see him going for such a monumental step, at such a painful time, unless he was truly open to Inara-as-she-is. Maybe not with a plan for the future, but open to her and open to whatever this declaration might bring for them.
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Quote:I don't mean to say that he's all into casual sex and multiple partnerships or something. Swinger Mal - NOT! But I think his own shyness about sex is due in some part to his emotional limits, and not just adherence to the "traditional ways".
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed.
So I think it's an oversimplification to suppose that if Inara would only stop sleeping around they'd be hunky dory. OK, no one on this thread is being that extreme, but I think the idea is out there. There is a tendency to put SEX SEX SEX first when maybe the physical act is a minor part of what these two would need to sort out.
Of course, that's my own bias showing - I think Americans are so puritanically repressed that we put sex before every damned thing! (You can beat me up and take my paycheck, but as long as you don't sleep around I know you love me...)
Quote:LOL! Exactly what I mean in many fewer words!
I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.
Quote:Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.
In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)
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Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.
In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)
I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak). He feels a lot of guilt about failing Nandi (and Inara) and he has to be aware of the fact that declaring his feelings with the same old "but your job is a problem" issue attached that he's been throwing at her since they met.. well, it would maybe unburden him but do nothing BUT burden Inara. In fact, it would hardly be a revelation at all, since there have been hints from him in the past, and he likely suspects that Inara knows about his attraction to her. So I see no sense in his declaring anything unless it is to actually say something new.
At that moment, Mal is about as vulnerable, open and uncombative as we have ever seen him. Clinging to Serenity with his hands, deeply nervous, but brave at the same time.
I cannot for the life of me imagine his planned words there to be so short-sighted that he would be attempting to burden her with his feelings+rejection, rather than attempting to give her something, burden-free.
I am NOT saying Mal was about to say "Yay, go sleep with people, I'll keep your bed warm! Happy end!"
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are. Their complications are readily apparent, he doesn't need to make a speech about them. I think it makes more sense that Mal was trying to say something that was uncomplicated.
Hell, at this point, I doubt Mal has the capacity to imagine a stable, long-term relationship between them. I think if given the opportunity at that moment, he would have accepted an offer of intimacy (emotional and physical) from Inara unconditionally, without thoughts of the future. Accepting her as she is.
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I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.
Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do. What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them. I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.
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Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.
Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.
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In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?
Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but of course, is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).
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Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility
Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature in my view.
Mal4prez,
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KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."
And I'm asking why you see him that way.
Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
I'm not arguing that Mal is moralistic, I agree that he's not hung up about sex. But your partner having sex with other people is another matter. Emotional intimacy issues? Probably, but do we need special psychology to explain why a person isn't happy for their partner to sleep with other people? I don't know, as I say I think some people can be too enlightened.
Heads should roll
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Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.
Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do.
Or rather, is willing to do, which is really the point. You say Mal would be unwilling to even attempt to change his position - and that he would be right to. I disagree and say this is a closed-minded view born out of the tradition that women are the ones to do the sacrificing for a relationship. I say this because you consistently rate Inara's expected sacrifice as lesser than Mal's.
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What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them.
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
They don't add anything valuable to the discussion at all, in my mind, other than to provide an example for a writer projecting their own negative feelings onto the character - which would be especially in keeping with M4P's original points about sanitizing Inara.
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I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.
I'm declaring that it's not an impossible one for Mal, actually.
Quote:Quote:
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.
Don't get me wrong, Mal's 'hang up' but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.
"Typical" I can buy, but natural? Mal is a product of his upbringing, and so many of the things we do socially subvert some of our "natural" tendencies, such as controlling violent impulses, respecting property, etc.
Do you think people who live in multiple partner relationships are "unnatural"?
I keep getting the feeling that you aren't just arguing out of Mal's character but out of your personal values. Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?
Quote:Quote:
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?
Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).
Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?
Quote:Quote:
Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility
Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature, in my view.
So Mal not accepting Inara is good because it is "natural"? All love is natural. How we treat each other is generally cultural, though, be that Mal's expectations or Inara's. There is nothing more natural in Mal's wish for absolut monogamy than would be in another person's for multiple-partner love.
So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love. It is no more impossible than to ask Inara to give up her life's work and beloved profession - I say, it is less damaging for them both, even, because Inara would
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This is all very fascinating, but I think the Guild may frown on Companions having emotional entanglements, i.e., lovers, spouses, etc, because of the complications that may arise, which everyone has stated so eloquently here. Click on her labor contract,
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=38162
They are both aware that in order to be together she would have to retire her contract. Maybe she was training that army of new recruits to take her place;) because she was losing her professional objectivity, see Better Days for that.
And that’s possibly why Mal says “I’m not looking for anything from you”, because he’s not willing to break the contract they have.
As much as he hates her job, he respects her enough to let it be her decision, independent woman and all, and that’s why he lets her leave, not wanting to ruin her career that she doesn’t seem all that concerned about because she wants to be invited to stay.
I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara.
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Quote:Wow, I'm a little surprised you're saying this! Am I interpreting your meaning wrong?
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak).
Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?
Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.
Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words. Guess I should have been clearer about that! I think his reservations would have been there and showed in his implied meaning, ie the "I'm not asking for anything from you" line. But I don't think he would have brought her job up specifically. He's not that callous, and he's smart enough to know that'd just lead to a fight. He certainly wasn't out for a fight.
Quote:To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.
I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more
) for some in-the-moment comfort and deal with the complications later, even if "dealing with the complications" meant that the relationship would crash and burn. Which is what I mean when I say that declaring his feelings did not at all mean full acceptance of her profession. That issue would still have been out there, to be dealt with when they could no longer ignore it.-----------------------------------------------
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Quote:Yeppers. Methinks some bias is showing.
Originally posted by kpo:
Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.
Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior)
Seriously, I don't disagree with your point completely, but I'd be much more convinced if you argued with actual behavior of Mal's, rather than saying it's in "some people's eyes" or "natural" or "typical". Goodness - why in the world would Mal limit his behavior to that which is "typical"? I haven't seen any of that in his character!
Quote:How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.
Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
Anyway, I never said that being in a sexually open relationship is any way mature. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, it's about Mal's particular situation. He's made tough choices before. He'll plug his nose and work with evil gangsters or even the Alliance when it's the most productive thing to do. Clearly, he's open to acting against what he'd like best. So, given a choice between a life with a woman he loves and a continued existence alone, he might be willing to make sacrifices. Not because it's natural, but because life and love are imperfect and he knows it.
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Quote:Wow. Good summation. I picked up on the Inara angsty melodrama in the fic and my interest waned, but I didn't think it through. I think you nailed it. I can't see Inara ever feeling dirty over being a Companion, as if being with Mal means that he would become the sole owner of rights to her body. That goes so against what we've seen of her views of sex.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
Platonist: Good point re the Guild. Hadn't thought about that. But what do you mean when you say: "I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara." Color me intrigued.
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?
Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.
Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words.
Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.
And it is exactly the kind of sensitivity I see him capable of. Which I really don't see as romantisizing or wishful thinking. I don't see Mal as magically transformed, but at that moment somewhat emotionally removed from his everyday insecurities, which do blind him to seeing what's in front of him most of the time, and which also cause him to lash out at her and others.
And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.
Quote:Quote:To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.
I agree that at that moment, Mal is hardly thinking about the two of them in long-term scenarios. I doubt he can really imagine them. And likely the issue would have come up in the future - in more or less intense form.
But it also shows Mal's instinct is to seek a connection with her without precondition, as you describe below.
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I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more
I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it. Whatever he was going to say, he was likely counting on finishing his speech and Inara replying, and more likely than not, something about her profession and his stated feelings about it would have come up. That's foreseeable even to Mal. So what would his answer have been then.. a shrug? A "No, in that case, better not"? Walk away unburdened and leave her standing there? I don't see Mal starting the conversation in that case. So he must have been open to unconditionally accept her in whatever short-term scenario this conversation might have brought, not with a sure end in sight, but with an openness to what he himself may be capable of.
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Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?
Less fulfilled? That describes Inara losing her job, it doesn't describe Mal having to live with the woman he loves sleeping with other people - which is more like a stabbing pain to the heart!
I'm trying to highlight the difference in the nature of the sacrifices - you're just trying to equate them. They're both sacrifices all right, Inara loses a job, a way to express her personality; Mal loses his personality, or lives with bitter pain...
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Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?
Nah, none of that sounds like me. I don't believe in right and wrong, I only believe in beauty - I don't like to see beauty crushed. There is beauty in Mal's possessive feelings for Inara - you shouldn't blame him for Joss's diabolical situation-eering which gives Inara a job that stabs him in the heart; but taking away that job is obviously the only way they can be together. There's this idea that companioning is such a noble, spiritual job and that we should all be in awe of it - and Mal shouldn't see it as sex but an amazing spiritual work that Inara does for other people that actually transcends sex, and so he need not really feel jealous. Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.
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So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love.
Let me clarify: Mal's way of love is such that Inara's companioning stabs him in the heart. If Mal changes the way he feels towards Inara, such that he doesn't mind her sleeping with other men, he loses a beautiful part of his own soul. I don't know, perhaps I'm being too rigidly romantic in saying it's 'impossible', but it would be sad to see, and if Inara is as fond of Mal's character as I am, she wouldn't be able to do it. I don't think Mal wants to see Inara lobotomised either btw.
Heads should roll
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Gee, I get back and the thread has exploded.
Well, I think that I didn't quite mean what I said as strongly as it's been interpreted about accepting her, occupation and all. Of course Mal's still going to have a problem with it. What I meant is only that he likely was about to express he has feelings for her, and at that time that meant admitting he had feelings even WITH Inara's profession in the equation. For Mal, that isn't a minor step. Before then, he'd been pretending like those feelings weren't there (poorly) behind the disguise of despising her profession.
I think that he was hoping he could put his feelings out there, and that maybe they could figure things out once he had. I interpret his "I'm not asking you for anything" as "I'm not asking you to reciprocate my feelings."
It's not about BURDENING Inara. It's about Mal trying to figure out a solution to what he sees as a problem. That's just the way he operates. Dominant male, comin' through, don't feel bad if you get shot a couple times when ultimately you're going to win the war.
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Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
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How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.
I don't think he was ever thinking of beginning a relationship with Nandi, so she was never a partner whom he'd have to share. You're thinking of moralism again, I'm talking about jealousy and other monogamistic feelings.
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Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals!
Well I certainly didn't say homosexuality is unnatural. I generally believe that anything that manifests widely in society is natural, like monogamy. If in addition there is evolutionary logic behind it, if it resonates with me personally as something beautiful - all the more reason to think so. But this is where I come to impasse with left wing people regularly, who seem to argue that aspects of human society are just arbitrary behaviours that have become entrenched.
But I did pose the Q early on in the discussion whether monogamistic instincts were natural, and I think AR agreed it was to an extent - I wasn't just declaring it so.
Heads should roll
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I don't think monogamy is natural. Most great apes live in colonies where one male has many females around him. The exception is the Bonobo... Who deal with jealousy by having sex helter-skelter to reduce tension. Jealous male? His male rival will sex him up.
I think monogamy is a social institution, invented under a false premise of having to protect women, and also for men to protect something they considered their property. Monogamy is particularly common in desert cultures, where harsh conditions means more competition within a social group, and where careful control on reproduction and offspring numbers is essential to tribal survival. In jungle cultures, relationship boundaries are quite a bit more relaxed.
Guess which climate Christianity/Judaism/Islam, and therefore most western culture stems from? Asian tribes, such as the descendants of Chinese, Japanese, Mongol, etc. are believed to have lived as nomads in arctic deserts, before drifting southward and settling in their current, more tropical climates. Likewise, the people of India seem to have come from the middle east first.
South America has the best historic and modern examples of purely jungle tribe culture.
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You know, something else we haven't asked. How do we KNOW for SURE that Mal would ask Inara to give up her profession?
There are several times that he actually is somewhat protective of it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Wow. Good summation. I picked up on the Inara angsty melodrama in the fic and my interest waned, but I didn't think it through. I think you nailed it. I can't see Inara ever feeling dirty over being a Companion, as if being with Mal means that he would become the sole owner of rights to her body. That goes so against what we've seen of her views of sex.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
Platonist: Good point re the Guild. Hadn't thought about that. But what do you mean when you say: "I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara." Color me intrigued.
I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.
Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.
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Quote:So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.
He is intentionally mean to Inara sometimes, but I think that's a different kind of intentional. That ol' defense mechanism. I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself. Because the silly guy really is unaware that she feels for him at all. I think that's the basis of his distrust of her - not that she has sex with clients, but that she somehow fools them into caring for her. Mal doesn't want to be just another fool on a long list.
Quote:Surely, you and I can see that. But just because Mal *should* take an action doesn't mean he intends to do it. Really, how often does Mal do what is best and proper? And remember - Inara sets him a'whirl, etc. She doesn't bring out his logical side.
And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.
Anyway, I don't think Mal wanted to make the admission purely to comfort Inara. Watch him in the scene - he takes the fact that Inara was upset about him sleeping with Nandi as an opening, a reason to come clean. He first asks: So you weren't glad before? Inara doesn't deny it, so he starts talking.
While he talks, he barely looks at Inara. He's not studying her face to see if his words are welcome and helpful. His focus is on the ground, his thoughts inward. Hardly the actions of a man whose sole interest is to remove burdens. Mal wants to tell the truth, and feels somewhat safe doing it because of Inara's jealousy.
He thinks he'll get a positive return, at very least an admission that she feels something too, so that even if nothing ever comes of it at least it's out there in the open and they don't have to dance around it anymore. I think that's as far as his intentions go.
Quote:But I don't think he was *planning* for the crash and burn. I think he was just ignoring the potential downfall and going for it when he saw a opening. That's pretty much the way he lives his life, right? Job to job. Do what's in front of you and let the future take care of itself.
I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it.
And if she did bring up her profession, as he might have been expecting, he might just say: "But you feel it too? There's something between us?" and if he got a nod that'd be all he was after. He could accept her refusal and walk away. After all, he's not asking for anything from her, right? All he wants is for her to hear him. Which she refuses to do. (*sigh* Poor Mal!)
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KPO -
Quote:
Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.
Perhaps we'll agree to disagree here, yes. Thank you for the discussion.
Bytemite -
Quote:
I don't think monogamy is natural.
That entire post was very interesting and informative! Also, hits the nail on the head.
Quote:
I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.
Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.
But if the scenario seems out of character to me, I can disagree about using it as an illustrative example, right?
Mal4Prez -
Quote:
So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.
Saying what he did to Kaylee was certainly not meant to be nice. He underestimated how it would hit Kaylee, but he WAS certainly lashing out at her. Like he often does with Inara, as well. That he sometimes looks sorry afterwards doesn't really clear him of mean-spirited intentions beforehand.
Sleeping with Nandi was an exception, where it was indeed unintentional.
Quote:
I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself.
I don't think Mal is so dense that he doesn't realize that his slights cut Inara. Witness his indirect apology in the pilot ep. It's something he knows he does and keeps doing, not a sleep-walking accident he never registers. As with Kaylee, the depth of the impact is hidden from him by his own insecure blindness, but not the entirety of his own actions.
As for the rest of your post... I'm sure we're not actually that far apart in our opinions, but I just don't see Mal as quite so short-sighted a happy-go-lucky guy as you, who doesn't consider even a shot-term impact of his declaration. I also don't see him as quite so unprotective and unsensitive to Inara's feelings as you do. After all, they would have to live on the ship together afterwards. Yes, he's expecting something of a positive response, but I think he was expecting the two of them to actually talk about it, not put it on the table to stay there like a now-visible elephant in the room. Hardly less awkward than not talking about it. So I think at that moment Mal was at least theoretically open to trying something with Inara, not by ignoring her profession and its implications, but by being open about it.
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.
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Yeah, if you disagree with it on a characterization level, maybe that fic wasn't such a good example of non-lobotomized relationship Inara. Oh well, I tried.
Hey, here's something: How come we never really expect BOTH of them to give up their jobs? It always seems like we expect one or the other of them to sacrifice for the other, or for neither of them to compromise at all.
And yet, I'd say Mal's job is more dangerous to their relationship than Inara's, even considering Mal's misgivings towards her profession, because his job could actually get one of them killed.
It's not a healthy occupation, both in the sense of injuries and in the sense of stress, emotional impact, self-esteem impact, and exacerbation of psychological trauma. Why is it so difficult to imagine that eventually his priorities might shift?
Right now, Mal's still so bitter about the war that a job openly defying the Alliance is the only job he feels fits him anymore. Yet assuming Mal lives long enough, and actually gets to start something with Inara, it seems unreasonable to imagine that he wouldn't eventually reach the conclusion that maybe his work is too dangerous.
He's not getting any younger, after all, and in a relationship with Inara I see a big worry of Mal as being whether or not he can protect her.
I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.
I AGREE, I AGREE, I AGREE! 100%!
(I'm a little embarrassingly excited about this, because it's a bit of an unpopular opinion in this fandom, I feel.)
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That's a shame, because otherwise Mal's character just remains stagnant or declines. Personally, I'd prefer to see something uplifting about him healing.
And I just don't think, as a writer, that Joss could have resisted that metaphor. Who could? It's potent, and if he wanted a strong direction to take Mal's character arc, that would be it.
Honestly, the way I see it is that Joss was setting up for that just by MAKING the Serenity Valley/Serenity ship connection. I don't really see any other way he might have gone with that.
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Well, I also see the other side, in terms of.. Mal being a "martyr" for the idea of freedom (abstract only). We don't really see Joss's heroes get happy ends because in a way it implies making peace with an unfair world, which some might liken to settling and complacency.
I don't see it that way, of course, but I see why some might.
That's only on a metaphorical level. Realistically speaking, I find the idea of Mal growing old on Serenity silly, and story-telling-wise, I find both the option of Geriatric Serenity or Mal dying young.. well, boring. Not even starting on "Happy end on the family ship Serenity" scenarios. I've had my discussions about those, no need to start a new one. Safe to say, Mal leaving Serenity eventually is the scenario I find most interesting.
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Quote:I can't stop yet because I think you're not getting what I'm saying. You're over-complicating and taking this places I don't mean, and getting off the point.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.
Let's keep it simple: Bytemite thinks that Mal's attempt to talk honestly meant a wholesale acceptance of Inara, profession and all. That he was fully willing to start a relationship with her, right then and there, and be the lover of a working, practicing Companion.
Just confirm that this is indeed what you think, then I will know that we do indeed disagree and I'll leave it alone.
But I'll still think you're wrong. :p
Now, I just arrived in Las Vegas and I have seriously cheesy shit to go do and see. Woo-hoo!
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Oh - but one more quick thing: yeah, I think Mal needs to move off Serenity.
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...Um, actually, that wasn't what I meant to say, and I clarified...
Well, anyway. Know what else? I don't think Mal likes his job, in truth. I think he has a lot of regrets and that his job is just a projection of depression-related low self esteem.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:
How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.
Anyway, I never said that being in a sexually open relationship is any way mature. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, it's about Mal's particular situation. He's made tough choices before. He'll plug his nose and work with evil gangsters or even the Alliance when it's the most productive thing to do. Clearly, he's open to acting against what he'd like best. So, given a choice between a life with a woman he loves and a continued existence alone, he might be willing to make sacrifices. Not because it's natural, but because life and love are imperfect and he knows it.
Nandi was someone he'd likely never see again, not someone he was considering a relationship with. I cannot see Mal ever coming to terms with Inara's companioning. He might try, but it would fester in the back of his mind and tear him apart when she was out on the job--not unlike the way it appeared to in the show when she was off and about. When Mal goes into something he gives of himself totally, there's no half-measures. The way he fought the war, the way he defends his crew threatening to space both Simon and Jayne as punishment for endangering anyone he thinks of as under his care. He goes all the way, and I think he'd expect that of anyone he truly loved if they were in a relationship with him.
Like Badger says in the pilot, he considers himself a "man of honor in a den of thieves." He works with some dirty people, but he doesn't stoop to their level in his mind. For a 'petty crook' he's an awfully honest man. In the pilot he lets Patience keep the food bars even though she tried to kill him and was at his mercy. He gives the medicine back as well as Niska's money in "The Train Job." He doesn't claim the cattle even though it looks like the people who paid him are going to be hauled off to jail in "Safe." In "Shindig" he tells Inara one of the things he hated was "the lie of it all."
Perhaps an old joke can illustrate the way I suspect Mal sees Inara's profession: A well-heeled man walks up to a pretty girl in a bar. After introducing himself and some minor chit-chat he asks her "would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" She is taken aback, but thinks on it, how that money could change her life and answers in the affirmative. He then says "Okay, would you sleep with me for twenty dollars?" Offended, she replies "What do you think I am?" He says "We've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price." Everything in the show indicates that despite the education and training and other services provided, companioning in Mal's mind is no different than whoring. It's taking money to have sex, and no matter how much money it is, or how well protected by the guild they are, it's the same thing with a prettier bow.
On some things Mal just won't compromise, and it appears this is one of them, which I suspect is why Inara left. She knew that they were incompatible as long as she still wanted to be a companion thus it was just hurting both of them for her to stick around.
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Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, here's something: How come we never really expect BOTH of them to give up their jobs? It always seems like we expect one or the other of them to sacrifice for the other, or for neither of them to compromise at all.
Right now, Mal's still so bitter about the war that a job openly defying the Alliance is the only job he feels fits him anymore. Yet assuming Mal lives long enough, and actually gets to start something with Inara, it seems unreasonable to imagine that he wouldn't eventually reach the conclusion that maybe his work is too dangerous.
He's not getting any younger, after all, and in a relationship with Inara I see a big worry of Mal as being whether or not he can protect her.
I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.
I don't think Mal ever intended to openly defy the Alliance as much as to simply escape from them. When he introduces Zoe to his new ship he says something to the effect of 'it's independence, never have to live under the heel of anyone ever again. Take jobs as they come.' He wanted to hire a mechanic and maybe a cook, he didn't say 'we need a burly thug for business dealings.' Also he didn't buy a warship, but an unarmed freighter, and at no time tries to arm it. I think he really just wants to be a freighter captain, and it's just the way of life on the Rim that when you start out you need to work some questionable dealings to keep flying. The only actual heists that didn't involve simple smuggling or salvage were originated by Simon and Saffron, not Mal.
Having Mal settle down to regular runs and just be a transport wouldn't seem to me to be out of character in the slightest. I think what Mal really wanted was freedom, not revenge.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.
That could be too, though it doesn't explain why she'd continue companioning in the first place. If she has "something set aside" as per "Heart of Gold what is she doing still working if she only has a few years to live?
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Why is Inara still working?
Health care?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Why is Inara still working?
Health care?
I can't imagine the Guild is so heartless it would cut off her health care because she wants to enjoy the remaining years of her life. I understand that's what the actress revealed at that convention recently, that Inara's secret hinted at in the scene from "Out of Gas" was that she was dying.
If it was health care why on earth would she go to the rustic rim rather than stay on her wealthy core planet with presumably top notch hospitals and crack physicians aplenty?
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I think there was a bit more to it than that, and am pretty much planning to explore my long convoluted theory in writing, so I can't go too deeply into it. :)
Suffice to say, I think Inara is sick, but I also think that she may have been in danger on Sihnon. I think the guild encouraged her to go, and I think she wanted to go see the verse before she died.
I think she continues to practice companioning because it's something familiar and comfortable for her, something she can fall back on if things on Serenity don't work out.
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The Guild may not know, check out the Inara discussion here, it has the spoiler alert:)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=38119#701552
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:I can't stop yet because I think you're not getting what I'm saying. You're over-complicating and taking this places I don't mean, and getting off the point.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.
Whoa. Deeply sorry.
Quote:
Let's keep it simple: Bytemite thinks that Mal's attempt to talk honestly meant a wholesale acceptance of Inara, profession and all. That he was fully willing to start a relationship with her, right then and there, and be the lover of a working, practicing Companion.
Just confirm that this is indeed what you think, then I will know that we do indeed disagree and I'll leave it alone.
I'm fairly certain she actually said that this is not what she meant?
It's not what I mean, in as broad strokes as you paint here, either. In a very over-simplified way, it is, though.
I certainly don't think Mal could or would have phrased it like that because he can't imagine himself in a relationship, period. Any relationship.
I think Mal was - judgment free - open to trying something with Inara. Not in the "I'm ignoring the crashing and burning outcome" scenario you described earlier, but in an actual and earnest "Let's see how I can handle this", open minded approach. Earnestly open to trying, whatever it would be. I think he was already working up to that pre-HoG.
I'm basically don't see Mal in any kind of denial at this point.
And we have already agreed to disagree about Mal's ability to accept Inara in the past, if you remember, so it's hardly going to be surprising that we're ending up back there.
Do have fun in Vegas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.
That could be too, though it doesn't explain why she'd continue companioning in the first place. If she has "something set aside" as per "Heart of Gold what is she doing still working if she only has a few years to live?
Maybe she likes her work?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:
I don't think Mal ever intended to openly defy the Alliance as much as to simply escape from them. When he introduces Zoe to his new ship he says something to the effect of 'it's independence, never have to live under the heel of anyone ever again. Take jobs as they come.' He wanted to hire a mechanic and maybe a cook, he didn't say 'we need a burly thug for business dealings.' Also he didn't buy a warship, but an unarmed freighter, and at no time tries to arm it. I think he really just wants to be a freighter captain, and it's just the way of life on the Rim that when you start out you need to work some questionable dealings to keep flying. The only actual heists that didn't involve simple smuggling or salvage were originated by Simon and Saffron, not Mal.
Having Mal settle down to regular runs and just be a transport wouldn't seem to me to be out of character in the slightest. I think what Mal really wanted was freedom, not revenge.
If that's true, why not go back to ranching, i.e. what Mal would believe a normal life?
I think because it hurts too much.
Why not get a job as a salesrep for a core corporation, or something within the bounds of Alliance law?
I think because it reminds him he lost.
I don't think it's so strong as revenge, he's a good sport all considering to that commander in Bushwhacked. But I think he can't stand any other job he might take, because they would be self-lacerating.
I don't disagree about the becoming JUST a transport, Mal would be perfectly happy, and perhaps safe, doing that. But I don't think Joss would've ended it that way. I think he would've ended Mal's story with a big change of some kind.
I see him coming full circle, really. I think when he can give up Serenity Valley and take up ranching again, he'll truly have recouped from his losses in the war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, anyway. Know what else? I don't think Mal likes his job, in truth. I think he has a lot of regrets and that his job is just a projection of depression-related low self esteem.
I agree with that, as well.
At this point, Mal is stuck in this life. Criminal record, Simon and River, a family held together by unsteady jobs. He can't really change it, but I'm certain he doesn't like it. Regrets describes it well.
Not that he hates every part of it all the time. He loves Serenity. But overall, he's dissatisfied.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:
For a 'petty crook' he's an awfully honest man. In the pilot he lets Patience keep the food bars even though she tried to kill him and was at his mercy.
Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.
Quote:
He gives the medicine back as well as Niska's money in "The Train Job."
Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.
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He doesn't claim the cattle even though it looks like the people who paid him are going to be hauled off to jail in "Safe."
Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.
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In "Shindig" he tells Inara one of the things he hated was "the lie of it all."
Not getting into this one.
Quote:
On some things Mal just won't compromise, and it appears this is one of them, which I suspect is why Inara left. She knew that they were incompatible as long as she still wanted to be a companion thus it was just hurting both of them for her to stick around.
I agree that this is what Inara thinks, aside from her secret and aside from perhaps a general unwillingness to bind herself.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
If that's true, why not go back to ranching, i.e. what Mal would believe a normal life?
I think because it hurts too much.
Why not get a job as a salesrep for a core corporation, or something within the bounds of Alliance law?
I think because it reminds him he lost.
I don't think it's so strong as revenge, he's a good sport all considering to that commander in Bushwhacked. But I think he can't stand any other job he might take, because they would be self-lacerating.
I don't disagree about the becoming JUST a transport, Mal would be perfectly happy, and perhaps safe, doing that. But I don't think Joss would've ended it that way. I think he would've ended Mal's story with a big change of some kind.
I see him coming full circle, really. I think when he can give up Serenity Valley and take up ranching again, he'll truly have recouped from his losses in the war.
He wouldn't want those jobs because he'd still be under the heel of the Alliance. I took the the theme of the program to be he went to the frontier to start anew, and find some measure of independence away from the jackboots of the Alliance. "you can't take the sky from me."
I recall reading in an interview with Joss or maybe it was the commentary from the movie that when Mal responds to the Operative saying "I know how you feel about the Alliance" with "You really don't" that he really means he's come to terms with the loss and doesn't hate them but just wants to stay out of their way. Kind of like how so many defeated Confederate soldiers drifted out west after the war rather than endure the occupation of Reconstruction.
As for what Joss would have done, I'd say that it's even money he'd have killed him. :)
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We pretty much agree then, at least about Mal and his job choices, if not about Inara or where Mal would end up. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.
Why on Earth would he do business with her ever again? He said he could understand why she shot him the first time, but the second she set to murder him and Zoe when he offered her quality goods at a reasonable price. Had he killed her they would probably built him a statue like they did Jayne in Canton, unless you know of a place where greedy, double-dealing ruthless murderers who gobble up half a moon are especially beloved. ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.
That would seem to describe Jayne, not Mal. As for Niska's money, Crow told him he could keep it, and what would happen anyway after Mal made a point of saying they were 'not thieves, but they were thieves but they weren't taking Niska's money.' Crow told him flat out it didn't matter, except in Mal's mind they were behaving honorably and not thieving.
Quote:
Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.
I don't remember this, I'll look for it the next time I watch the episode. I recall them getting bound by law for something entirely different, and then starting the gunfight to escape.
Quote:
Not getting into this one.
Huh? Is this some sort of controversy here? I can't imagine how it could be.
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Gillianrose, I read your post and became inspired to write to you this response. First, I have to say, when I began reading I just could not stop.
You really poured yourself into it, much like Inara, and gave a heartfelt account of her essence.
I thought back to when I first saw the pilot when I unwrapped the DVD set, several moments come to mind: despite Mal's sometimes brutish behavior she tactfully parries his thrust (no pun intended) without so much as a moment's hesitation. Of course that spoke more to their rather volatile relationship, but nonetheless I got the impression that this woman was a force to be reckoned with.
I thought also of two very telling moments, again in the pilot, where Inara's strength and vulnerability were shown. The absolution scene with Book was great theatre and brilliant storytelling. It gave us a true hero without so much as a bullet being fired or a punch being thrown. Here is a man of the cloth, who is ordained to give comfort and promote forgiveness, being comforted and forgiven in one subtle but powerful stroke. It is a scene I will always remember. It's Mary Magdalene forgiving Jesus. It is one spiritual being reaching out to another, she eased his pain.
The other moment that speaks volumes is when, while Wash is desperately trying to distance Serenity from the pursuing Reavers, Mal is telling Inara to take her shuttle with River, Simon and Book, places his hand on her shoulder, they give each other a knowing look, and Mal "shoves" her away. Actually it was more of a nudge, but everyone knows that what they both wanted was to hold onto each other. He wanted her safe, she wanted to save him. Classic moment of truth.
But here's what I've learned of Inara in the following eps. She is a Companion, with a capital C. What that means to me is that she is a life partner. A person who gives of herself, as you rightly described, in spite of what anyone might think. She never compromises her beliefs, although, in her strength, she adapts them. She aspires to make those around her better people in spite of themselves. To me she is Mother Earth - nuturing, strong and giving all at once.
She is not just a professional Companion, Geisha, Concubine; she is the High Priestess. I agree with you that there's more to her than companionship. I could see her becoming an accomplished artist, painter, sculptor. I could see her advising heads of state (I think back to her time with the councilor in War Stories - "I'll be in my bunk"). Perhaps she could become an effective Alliance Parliament member.
She's a hero because she chose to counsel, comfort and inspire those she came in contact with. Her knowledge, wisdom and intelligence were used for the greater good, especially the crew of Serenity. Inara, like Mal, Zoe and River, professes her love from the ship. It is only fitting that at the end of the BDM she's painting the Serenity symbol on the ship. It is a blessing of sorts and, I believe, her life's work.
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Art, beauty, love, communication, connection, intimacy, excitement, mystery...what do human beings really need? What can we do without? These are some of the questions that Inara and Firefly make me think about. This is why I love her, and the 'verse Joss created.
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I dedicate this to my grandmother; a woman of extraordinary strength, wisdom and love - Tomasa, RIP.
SGG
Tawabawho?
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I kind of have to say, thanks SGG. That is a very nice post.
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Thanks for the kind words, SGG, and for sharing your own profound thoughts.
To me she is Mother Earth - this has occured to me as well, that on some level her character is emblematic of the Earth, of all the things that Mal gave up (as referred to in the song).
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Shinygoodguy, a post like yours makes it worth wild coming to this site; you've put into words how many of us feel about Inara's character.
Mary Magdalena, Mother Earth, life partner, unsung hero, all of these describe her well and she could be anything or go anywhere, but Serenity is her home and where she brings her love.
For me, the most telling sign of her importance and uniqueness in the crew’s lives is how dark and unhappy they are when she is gone, in the BDM. And then when she returns and asks to stay at the end, Mal genuinely smiles for the first time and goes to rattle on about love, something I couldn’t imagine that character doing without her there.
And, If Inara really wants to be with Mal and he accepts what she offers, she’ll find away to juggle her life and make room for him, without hurting herself or him, in the process. She’s that talented.
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Ooh, I like that. Maybe you're right, maybe we haven't given Inara enough credit in being able to handle situations with grace, wisdom, and compassion.
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Originally posted by Kaosium:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.
Why on Earth would he do business with her ever again? He said he could understand why she shot him the first time, but the second she set to murder him and Zoe when he offered her quality goods at a reasonable price. Had he killed her they would probably built him a statue like they did Jayne in Canton, unless you know of a place where greedy, double-dealing ruthless murderers who gobble up half a moon are especially beloved. ;)
Then why give her that little lesson about how he does business? Why, indeed, NOT shoot her when he has no problem kicking Crow into the engine? Fact is, whether Mal likes her or not, Patience is a powerful woman who is "just about mayor" on her little backwater moon. She buys high quality food stuffs - for all I know she's buying them for her people, men women and children, and she's ruthless to hapless outsiders, not to the people on her moon.
That Patience would be universally loathed or that people would be grateful to Mal for creating a power vaccuum is not the only possibility there, and actually a little unlikely.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.
That would seem to describe Jayne, not Mal.
Nah, for Jayne it's not an instinct. Mal still has it, but he suppresses it without much trouble a lot of the time.
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As for Niska's money, Crow told him he could keep it, and what would happen anyway after Mal made a point of saying they were 'not thieves, but they were thieves but they weren't taking Niska's money.' Crow told him flat out it didn't matter, except in Mal's mind they were behaving honorably and not thieving.
...right before he kicks the unarmed, bound man into his engine. Honorable, indeed.
Crow was a loyal, vengeful fanatic who would have made hunting Mal his personal goal ("the last thing you see will be my blade") and no use to Mal's plan. The next cronie up was more than willing to impart his message and the money. He didn't give it back for honor but because he knew that stealing from Niska would be the worst possible choice. Giving back the money, no matter what Crow says, would look like at least a chance at appeasing him.
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Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.
I don't remember this, I'll look for it the next time I watch the episode. I recall them getting bound by law for something entirely different, and then starting the gunfight to escape.
They were bound by law for something else, but Mal just sold them smuggled cattle. Without papers. Which would have involved him in the entire mess. There was no profit in claiming that cattle and all the benefit in the world in blaming the other guys. No honor involved.
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Not getting into this one.
Huh? Is this some sort of controversy here? I can't imagine how it could be.
There have been many, many discussions on the subject.
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Hey yall,
Way earlier in the thread everyone was suggesting that Mal might dump serenity as part of a "healing circle".
What I've got to ask is- Why would he?
Its still his ship
He LOVES his ship
Its more a symbol of home, family and its the one place he can call HIS after the civil war.
His life of petty theivery and being one of those naughty men sneaking round the edge of the verse is probably rooted, in part at least, in defiance.
But to say that he is dissatisfied with "flyin" is- well- stupid
The pilot showed that he can be shot, have his crew-members shot (whom he is more protective of), be near killed by reavers, arrested by alliance moles and much more and STILL call it a good day!
He has a real smile on his face at that moment.
Cos hes "still flyin".
Simon- "thats not much"
Mal- "its enough." *contented smile*
Now, later in life, even as early as his early fourties, I could see Mal, Inara and Co laying down Serenity to rest (on the western side of a craggy red-rocked hill).
The important detail is that it'd be overlooking their new ranch :)
Makes sense. Serenity was originally found sittin in the dirt. Why not end it's days that way?
The important difference is that instead of rusting away abandoned, it'd become their house.
Its got a kitchen, bedrooms, walls and a roof.
It could be converted into the heart and hub of Mal's ranch. The seed of defiance, the one thing that represented (the) independence to Mal would become the heart of a truly "legitimate business enterprise".
It wouldnt be a perfect circle of healing.
It shouldnt be.
With a perfect circle you dont gain, learn, or discover anything. This would be post traumatic stress Mal healing, and moving on from Serenity Vally- but that doesnt mean he'd ever move on from his sense of freedom or family.
Serenity is much more a source of goodness than badness.
Have you ever imagined Mal without Serenity?
He'd self destruct.
Depending on how lucky (or unlucky) they are I could see Mal and Inaras influence and reputation fetching them some reasonable power and responsibilty on whatever planet they put down on.
Post-BDM with a weakened alliance, perhaps it could be time for the border planets to organize themselves and start wielding diplomacy properly.
The civil war was unwwinnable. Why'd it ever even happen?
As much as Mal'd likely gain the respect and loyalty of the locals pretty quick, itd be Inara who'd truly turn things upside down for the Alliance in the diplomatic arena.
Anywho, that was my response to the idea Mal would and should leave serenity. Cant honestly remember the original thread topic. Too late to stop my tangent I guess :)
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Thanks, it is appreciated.
SGG
Tawabawho?
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...this has occured to me as well, that on some level her character is emblematic of the Earth, of all the things that Mal gave up (as referred to in the song).[i/]
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This has occurred to me as well, and more lately than ever before (in my advanced years I'm finally getting so wisdom, who'd of thunk it!).
And another thing that came to mind, we never got to know about Mal's life before Serenity. Was Inara his true love? (I tend to think yes). Did he have a significant other, a Mrs. Reynolds, somewhere in the verse?
Your right about the song, Inara and Serenity. Actually, as I think about it more, Inara and Serenity are one. Mal fell the moment he saw her, Serenity that is. I dare say that it was the same with Inara, although with Inara he would never admit it, not even to himself. I think that in future eps River would help the both of them in that regard. That's just the romantic in me.
I'm beginning to think that Serenity and Inara are what Mal 'gave up' in the Valley. Or rather the feeling/belief he had prior to the Alliance ships raining havoc on the Valley. In the BDM we see him smile and talk about love making her fly, it was not until now that I see what Joss was referring to when Mal asked Zoe if she would hold together. It wasn't just about Zoe or the ship. He was also referring to Inara. All the women in his life were wounded but on the mend, including Serenity. Inara was lost(but now found), River is better, Simon finally declared himself to Kaylee and Zoe lost her best friend. But somehow you get the feeling she'll be okay. (Although I picture her crying in her bunk at the sight of even one dinosaur).
Did you ever notice that Zoe rarely spoke her feelings except, of course, when it came to Wash's genius piloting skills. She was so proud. Actually, in the pilot, she told Simon he wouldn't make it to the Feds if Kaylee didn't. But that's another thread.
SGG
Tawabawho?
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I never said that Mal didn't like flying. I said that he doesn't actually like being a criminal. Sure, it has it's fun moments, and he gets to live with his middle finger in the air at the Alliance (to borrow a great line from Mal4Prez's story), but that doesn't mean it's what he wanted to be when he was just a boy from Shadow, who went off to fight in a war. Or even after, when he was buying Serenity. His little speech about staying one step further from Alliance control doesn' say anything in it that he anticipates doing so by crime. He probably thought he could operate legitimately, and so the Alliance would just leave him alone.
The thing is. Serenity is a beautiful ship, a character all in her self with a long sad history. And she's a symbol of home in a crew where EVERYONE has lost a home. Inara, Simon, River, and Mal are obvious. Kaylee chose to leave, cheerfully, but because of hardship. I suspect Wash, Book, Jayne, and Zoe are similar stories.
But. Serenity belies her name, she's surrounded by violence and tragedy, and in that environment, healing can't really take place. Despite all that she is, she's a place, a thing, both of which can be taken away. The love that the crew has for each other, that's the real home, that's where healing is. And that's one of the things that the crew, and Mal in particular, have to realize, otherwise they'll cling to Serenity, she'll become a limitation that keeps them from leading fuller lives because they're STUCK to a bare bones hand-to-mouth place-to-place criminal existence.
It's easy to idealize Serenity. The crew makes her a good place, makes her a home. But it's a hard life, a half-life, and they'll die that way, either physically, from a gunfight or a breakdown, or spiritually, if they don't recognize it's not the ship they need but their connection to each other.
Mal would break NOW if you took Serenity away, I agree. That's because he is not HEALED, and he needs to. And it's not the ship or his lifestyle that can do that, but his crew.
Mal is a remarkable leader, and he can make the hard decisions most people would balk at. But that doesn't mean all the frustration, stress, and pressure he's under is good for him, on top of his long standing issues of bitterness and depression. He may have found some happiness and contentment with his ship, but he hasn't yet found serenity yet. He's still very much at war, with himself and the entire universe.
Serenity has helped him, I'll say that. I think there was a time after the war where he REALLY had nothing, not even anything really to live for, and Serenity and Zoe, and then the crew and Inara gave him that. But there are negatives, significant ones, that could become road blocks to Mal improving, and when he has gotten better enough, I think he'll have to leave Serenity behind him. But so long as his crew stands with him, he'll be fine.
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Getting into this discussion a bit late, but this is such a central theme for Firefly/Serenity, and as I'm a newly-minted fanfic writer, I've been thinking about this issue a lot. Personally, I've "retired" Inara in my one and only fic because I think it's more interesting. If she were just to go back to renting the shuttle and taking clients, it would be like Miranda never happened - I'm really interested in how the BDM affected everyone, its aftermath, etc. and I think both Mal and Inara would be radically altered by what happened. Also, I do think her profession is a barrier to them getting together, and while that's interesting on the screen, in the 'verse of fanfic, I want smootchies!
I don't think anyone has pointed this out, but I find it very telling that after HoG, Inara decides to leave, and the implication is that, at least in part, her and Mal's complicated relationship is getting in the way of her work - but when she actually does leave, she doesn't work as a Companion anymore. She still is one, but at the Training House. We're not told explicity whether she is or isn't taking clients, but given they're not in the Core, the prospective client pool would be somewhat limited on the planet where the Training House is. I choose to believe she didn't take clients while she was away from Serenity, because it fits my view of the post-BDM universe. :)
I think the point about Inara's profession in relation to her relationship with Mal is that he doesn't think it's worthy of her. He thinks she has to become someone new for each client, and so the clients don't ever really know her or see her for who she is. But I do think he's a monogamous kind of guy, so the sex part of her profession will always be an issue.
Inara's reaction to Mal sleeping with Nandi is also telling - she says that not being puritanical about sex means you don't have to be embarassed after, and she means that - but she's very upset by Mal sleeping with Nandi - why? If she's the type of person who would be in an open relationship - ie continue to be a Companion, sleeping with other people, then why would Mal sleeping with Nandi upset her, given Inara and Mal are not even in a relationship? The implication is that it's ok for her to have "meaningless" sex but not for him. She was deeply hurt by his actions - one presumes she would be even more so if they were actually a couple.
In terms of giving up her profession - she doesn't have to give it up. She can continue to do what she was doing at the Training House or something similar. I've been toying with the idea of her having an apprentice - someone to rent the shuttle and be Serenity's resident Companion, while learning from Inara's vast experience. Look at real-world (ie 21st century Earth) sex workers - most stop doing actual sex work at some point, either because they decide to have a "conventional" (please don't flame me for that phrase, I just can't think of how else to say it) relationship, or for other reasons (they become madams, or go into completely other lines of work, start support organizations for sex workers, the list goes on).
GR - loved your post. Just wanted to say that.
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Ahhh, but there's the thing. I'm not sure Inara giving up her profession would be a rational response to Miranda, because there's not really any indication that the Guild is affected by the Alliance anymore than the Guild supports the Alliance because it's good for business. Now, if she were to quit because she wants to be with Mal, post Miranda, I could see that a bit better... EXCEPT, that her just giving up her profession not only limits her independence, but also that it completely ends the conflict the two of them have over her profession, which really needs to be resolved if they're going to have a meaningful relationship. I don't think either of them can ignore her profession, even if Inara were no longer IN it, because of Mal's trust issues.
I don't think Inara's reaction to Mal sleeping with Nandi was hypocritical because I think there's more to what's going on with her than meets the eye. I think there's very real reasons she thinks she CAN'T be with Mal, and seeing him move on is a kick to the stomach, because more than ever she can't have him. I don't think it was the meaningless sex at all, but if that did play any role, it was in that Inara knows that sex means something to Mal, much more than it does for her.
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I'm not necessarily saying that Inara giving up her profession is a rational reaction to Miranda - I'm just saying that I think it would be detrimental to the story if she just went back to renting the shuttle, and taking clients wherever the jobs took the crew. It would be just like before she left, and I think that would do a disservice to the events of the BDM. It's not just about Inara - I think that lots about their lives would change. Would Simon and River still be fugitives? Would Jayne become any more contemplative? How would Zoe deal with being a widow? Etc.I guess I just think that it's more interesting, story-wise, for things to change after Miranda.
One reason I gravitate toward the idea of Inara retiring is a scene from the shooting script (which I think they must have rehearsed, at least, as there are still pictures from it in the Serenity Companion) where Inara follows Mal out from the Search and Rescue craft, just after seeing the recording, and tells him that she doesn't know how to do this, that she needs his help. I guess I take that to mean that her worldview is seriously threatened by what she sees on Miranda.
I didn't mean to imply that Inara was hypocritical in her reaction to Mal's sleeping with Nandi - but rather that it would be hypocritical of her to expect Mal to be fine with her going on with being a Companion, considering how upset she was about him sleeping with Nandi. I do think you're right, though, that she knows that Mal isn't cavalier about sex, and so him being with Nandi meant something. But I don't think what Inara does is about sex either - that's one of the reasons she draws a distinction between Companions and whores. She chooses her clients carefully - knowing that the sex actually does mean something.
I don't think that Inara giving up her profession would magically make all the issues she and Mal have go away. I just think that a relationship between them would be impossible unless she ceased taking clients. Mal would have to do some heavy compromising too - or growing really - to deal with his intimacy issues, etc.
I agree that they'd need to deal with her profession, even if she were to quit, but I think the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a problem with sex for money generally (he seems just fine with Nandi). He thinks Inara's too good for it. Which is the crux of the problem: he thinks she's too good for him. And I think he'll need to take her off the pedastal, or they don't stand a chance.
I like discussing this, though - it gets my brain thinking about all sorts of possibilities. Thanks for keeping it going, since I missed it the first time!
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I agree that they'd need to deal with her profession, even if she were to quit, but I think the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a problem with sex for money generally (he seems just fine with Nandi). He thinks Inara's too good for it. Which is the crux of the problem: he thinks she's too good for him. And I think he'll need to take her off the pedastal, or they don't stand a chance.
That, I do agree with.
I guess maybe I see Inara's having sex as different from Mal having sex. In Those Left Behind, River says "You cheated" to Mal, not Inara. With Inara, she may care about her clients, but it's not the same way, so it's not cheating. Only Mal doesn't see that.
And I can't figure out a better way how the issues that Inara's profession brings up can be resolved than her continuing to be in it. It's more potent than if she stopped, Mal's problems would be both justified and not because it's not what he thinks.
And furthermore, a Mal who refuses to be with Inara because of her profession, requiring her to give it up, is an interpretation of Mal that I don't like. If Mal wants a relationship with her, he has to learn to accept her. And I also don't like an Inara who capitulates so readily.
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I don't know. I think it's completely true to Mal's character that he wouldn't be able to be with Inara (or anyone, for that matter) if she were still taking clients. Because that does mean something different to him than it does to her (or does it? She's pretty non-committal about her thoughts on having a relationship as a Companion, and I think she chooses to be a Companion rather than a more conventional life where she could have a long term relationship, because she's rather be wholly independent). Even were he to deal with all his issues about her career, apart from the her-having-sex-with-other-people thing, he still would never be okay with her having sex with clients. Regardless of the fact that it's a different kind of sex/intamacy than she would have with him. I think that's just who he is. And I don't think that's crazy or out of line on his part. I don't know a whole lot of people who would be okay with their partners having sex with other people, regardless of it being a job. There are some people who can deal with it - Mal is not one of them.
But, he knows he has no right to ask her to give it up. Which is why he never does. He says that more than once - in Shindig, he says he's got no call to stop her, in HoG he says he's not asking anything of her, etc. And I don't know about Inara "capitulating." I think she would, at some point, make a choice between the two. And it's much more fun for her to choose to be with Mal
It's a bit of a troublesome issue, because the good feminists in all of us want to believe that she shouldn't have to give up anything for the man she loves, she can still have her independence, blah-de-blah. I'm troubled by the fact that sacrifice is seen as a sell-out when a woman does it for a relationship. Okay, not going to get into a post-feminist analysis. More than I already have...
It's a beautiful set-up for a tv show, because it's a seemingly insurmountable barrier - they can't be together, but they don't want to be apart. It's a time-honoured device, and it works. I mean, here we are still talking about this relationship and where it could have gone.
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I like Mal and Inara as much as anyone, and I hope they work it out. But Inara being a fictional character, of a cast of characters I enjoy and have an emotional investment in, I would be very concerned for Inara entering a relationship with Mal and not having anything to fall back on.
If Mal hasn't worked out his issues in advance, I foresee a very tumultuous relationship, and likely a tumultuous one even AFTER he has because of the way he thinks and because he's almost as bad as Simon when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth. If Inara goes into that relationship, and it's on again off again... Let me ask you. Would YOU give up a steady long term job and a source of income for that kind of uncertainty? I think that's a good way to get left high and dry. Inara is a business woman, and rational.
And also, this continues to not address the problem that the sacrifice would not be mutual. In all fairness, if they want to start a life together, Mal should give up the job that could very likely kill them both, and Inara should give up the job that drives her prospective partner to fits of jealous rage, angsting, and misery. Because you may be right, and it won't work out with Inara in her job, but it won't work out with Mal the way he is in his job, too.
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I totally agree. I think Mal should give up the dangerous aspects of his job. It's just the topic was more focused on Inara.
I get your point about Inara giving up her job for something that may or may not work out - but it's not like she couldn't go back to it if Mal did manage to put his foot in it so bad it couldn't be fixed(and to be fair, she gives as good as she gets). I also don't forsee them having some big, "I love you, let's live happily ever after" type moment, after which Inara immediately quits the Guild never to return or have anything to do with them. I think they would go about this the way they always have - little baby steps. Just more of the forward variety, rather than the backward. I think that the acknowledgment (I can never spell that, so apologies if it's wrong ) that they are both willing to try would go a long way. I'm just saying that a proper relationship between them would not be possible if Inara were still seeing clients. And she could do other things - ie train other Companions, like we've seen. She wouldn't have to give it up completely. And really, I think Inara has much more to fall back on than Mal does - she's respected, intelligent, well connected and from a Core planet. Mal, on the other hand, seems to be good at getting shot and stealing things (but really, not so great at stealing things, at least, not without getting shot or otherwise injured!) - he's got a lot more to lose by giving up his "career."
I do wonder if Inara would insist on safer jobs. She doesn't seem to mind the illegal stuff, but I think she would have as much of a problem watching him go off to potentially get killed as he would watching her go off to service a client.
I do wonder what else he could do though - and of course, of all this in a post-Miranda context. Very very interesting.
Maybe she has to be the one to take a risk - one of them has to, why not her?
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