Inara: more bad ass than she seems?

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Saturday, August 15, 2009 18:37
VIEWED: 17984
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BYTEMITE

Wednesday, July 8, 2009 6:33 PM (P)

I see a lot of interpretation of Inara as the princess who awaits rescue, lets other people do all the violence/action for her if it comes to that.

But is that really the case?

She knows how to use a bow and swords, and in her profession, it would make sense if she could handle herself in hand-to-hand combat.

Saffron, who is said to have companion training, clearly knows hand to hand combat (and other self-defense techniques). In Our Mrs. Reynolds, I interpret Inara as having dodged Saffron's kick rather than stopping Saffron not because she wasn't skilled in hand to hand combat, but because Saffron caught her off guard (Malcolm Reynold's widow) and because she wanted to make sure Mal was okay.

Also, I see Inara as having been a bit of a rough and tumble little girl, before she began Companion training. She seems very at home in an old trampy freighter, and in a low-class dive watching Mal and Jayne shoot billiards. Simon, who has an upper class upbringing, is often NOT comfortable (at least at first) in these settings. I think that suggests she may have come from a different social class than Simon.

Lastly, sometimes I wonder if she doesn't enjoy some of the thrill and adventure of the crew's law-breaking. Like at the end of Trash, she loved that, and I also wonder if she didn't enjoy it in Shindig when Mal basically mugs the slavers.

Reference/Inspiration:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5200581/1/Play_The_Part

^Fanfiction by jackwabbit, recently posted. Not mine, but definitely enjoyed it!

Discuss?

FOLLOWMAL

Wednesday, July 8, 2009 6:36 PM (P)

Oooo, wabbity wabbit is one of the best fic writers out there.
She is awesome!
Haven't read this one yet, will give it a go soon. :)

http://www.kidsneedtoread.org/

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 12:09 AM (P)

Anyone want to nibble on the conversation bait? I'm always interested in talking characterization, and since Inara's my co-favourite character, I'm curious how people see her and her possible past.

STEWIEJ84

Thursday, July 9, 2009 7:59 AM (P)

I think the theory about Inara having grown up in a lower social class could hold alot of water. she also did seem pretty snarky at the end of trash, whatwith that shiteating grin on her face as she pointed that gun at yo-saf-bridge. I, for one, would be very interested to know what her story is.

first things first, though, lets get books story told! daaaamn you dark horse!!!!!

Zoë: Sir, we don't want to deal with Patience again.
Mal: Why not?
Zoë: She shot you.
Mal: Well, yeah, she did a bit.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 9:39 AM (P)

Considering that River is extremely comfortable on Serenity, I don't think Inara needs to be originally lower-class to appreciate the life on the ship. She DOES have her luxuries around her, after all. And while she's comfortable enough with the more civilized elements, like Mal, Zoe and Kaylee's sweetness, we don't really see her interact with "normal" folk at all when she doesn't have to. Ad look at her distaste for the "simple" art in the shop in "Safe".

I don't really see it.

As for her "wild side"... sure it's very porbable that she has some experience with weapons and self-defense, both through Guild training and/or personal interest. I also think she genuinely loves a thrill, as long as it's generally safe and not violent.

In the bar scene in Shindig, she enjoys the rough bar but once Mal starts stealing, she starts frowning and making snide remarks. She doesn't look impressed.

I definitely think that she is NOT a damsel. But I don't agree with the fic. I don't see Inara as hiding violent aggression, enjoying violence or, you know, having had an Evil Controlling Violent Mother.

FLATTOP

Thursday, July 9, 2009 12:21 PM (P)

Inara's back story would be interesting, 'tis true, but I don't think that she had all that much exposure to whatever her roots were. Companion training starts at about five or six doesn't it Young enough that whatever rough & tumble she may have started out as is remember (if at all) as a romanticized version of itself. I think her acceptance of, and ease in various situations is due to her training (perhaps the occasional client enjoys 'slumming' for the thrill of it).
As to her martial abilities; I do not doubt that Inara has received traditional training (open hand & some weapons; has watched enough professional fights to know talent when she sees it), but in the words of Han Solo, "Good against a remote is one thing kid, good against the living is another." Inara may have been a gifted student, who can incapacitate most run of the mill clients (very wealthy people that spend their time working, not working out) should it be necessary, but every time she's gone up against a professional (Yo-Saf-Bridg (who seems to have much more practical experience), Operative), she is shown to be way out of her league. Shooting reavers is a matter of remaining calm (lots of professional training at that), and not thinking of them as people (easy as lyin'); but even at that, she was on the 'clean up crew' just taking out the stragglers that got past Jayne & Zoe.
If she were to train more, and be willing to take a few serious hits (yes, you're fast & can hit me, but I'm big enough to let you hit me a few times so that I can whomp you - Jayne) she could be dangerous at & below her weight class & even a bit heavier while unarmed, and if trained with a 'proper' weapon (high capacity pistol or perhaps a sub-machine gun (largest caliber she can reliably handle)) she could hold her own any time she was outside of kicking distance.
For character balance reasons though I don't see it happening. An Inara/Zoe blend?

----------

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 12:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by FlatTop:
Companion training starts at about five or six doesn't it Young enough that whatever rough & tumble she may have started out as is remember (if at all) as a romanticized version of itself.

Actually, it starts at 12, as per the deleted scene in the movie. Where do you get the age five number from?

Otherwise, I agree with your post. She's no proficient by any means and I doubt she'd care to be.

FLATTOP

Thursday, July 9, 2009 12:54 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by FlatTop:
Companion training starts at about five or six doesn't it Young enough that whatever rough & tumble she may have started out as is remember (if at all) as a romanticized version of itself.

Actually, it starts at 12, as per the deleted scene in the movie. Where do you get the age five number from?

Otherwise, I agree with your post. She's no proficient by any means and I doubt she'd care to be.

Hang on, I'll watch it again...
Ah! Right you are. I confused the lines, and thought it was the at twelve the, "... Physical act of pleasure was first mentioned, after years of training ..." My mistake.
So she could remember quite a bit of her childhood outside the guild.

----------

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, July 9, 2009 1:55 PM (P)

I think Inara is a normal woman. Although she is loyal to the Guild and their rules, she also has an independent and adventurous spirit. She is proud of her career, she enjoys the fringe benefits it provides in terms of being able to associate with the upper class. But she gets bored, and like many women, she has an attraction to the "bad boy". On Serenity, with Mal and the gang, she has the best of both worlds.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 2:13 PM (P)

Well, no, agreed, the abusive rim upbringing thing I'm not sold on myself.

But I don't think the point was that Inara is really really VIOLENT deep down. I mean she is Buddhist. They frown on that, and I think she's as spiritual and has as much faith as Book.

But I think that, if the situation calls for it, she can handle herself. In fact, in Shindig, during the duel, after Atherton beat Mal, I actually would've liked to see Inara step in and turn the tables on Atherton. And I think she would have had the ability and the motive to do so.

And I think when she slapped Mal in the Train Job, she enjoyed that. Not because it really hurt him, because it didn't, or because she's violent, but because it's Mal, in an awkward position, and she got to rescue him. And because she slapped him, and she's probably wanted to do so for a while. And because it's funny.

For her background, I see her as being the daughter of a practicing companion, but the long term client of her mother dropped her after her mother became pregnant. Stuff happens (you all probably know what I mean), and she becomes a ward of the guild.

I picture the companions and companions-in-training as having a whole lot of opulence in their dorms, but prior to Inara being accepted for training, I imagine her growing up in a guild-run orphanage with friendly affectionate guild priestesses kind of like the orphanages that used to be run by convents; not overly rich except for being in something like a church, but they provide food, clothing, and education for the children. I can picture her running around like bit of a street urchin for a couple years with other girls her age.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 2:49 PM (P)

Does anyone, though, think that Inara wouldn't be able to handle herself if she really needed to? Who could't really? I bet even Benning from the Shindig ball could do so, if properly motivated, and Inara has certainly had more training. We know she keeps her head in a tough situation, but so does Simon.

Being a wild child isn't necessary for that and I don't really see Inara as the tree climbing, trouble-causing sort. I see her as an exciteable child, certainly, and one who loves movement in general, but I don't really see her as rough and tumble in that she would have gotten into fights like in the fic without a fairly momnumental reason for it, or experienced them the way the fic describes.

In some ways we have a similar view of her childhood: absent father, mother who dies before Inara is an adult. But I don't see anythig street urchin-like at all. Friends, sure. Playing, sure. But nothing remotely associable with neglect or little supervision or being one among many. I don't think, basically, that entering the Guild dramatically altered her life in terms of surrounding wealth and privilege. Partly because young students are likely not buried in money right away, but also because she probably came from a comfortable-to-wealthy background. I just don't get a sense of "The Guild Rescued Inara from poverty" from her. She would probably react differently to the life she faces in the show if she had any connection to it, or maybe even mention it at some point.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 3:26 PM (P)

She's just so accepting of it, though. And maybe it's the eight months she had on the ship before the series started, but in Out of Gas, she seems to know EXACTLY the kind of business Mal's involved in right away. Doesn't seem to bother her then, either, and she turns around and offers Mal some practical "respectability."

She doesn't say, no, wait, I have a Guild contract and can't be involved with thieves and brigands. Why's she so comfortable? Why does she decide the risk is okay?

At that point, I'm not thinking it's just Mal's allure. My thinking is, she's had some brushings with that kind of lifestyle already. Slumming with a client? Maybe, but if that's her only contact with it, why wouldn't she be more condescending about it? Inara is NOT really condescending; yes, to Mal she is, but that's a defensive mechanism. And do you really compare Inara traveling with the crew of Serenity as her slumming with them? Slumming is... there's kind of an inherent judgement about it, "let's go see how the other half lives and entertain ourselves." That's not how I see her with the crew at all.

How a person treats other people is a product of upbringing. I see social class division as very real in the Firefly 'verse. There are people in the upper class who are nice to lower classes, I grant you, great humanitarians, but how often do such individuals actually associate with the lower classes they might give money and charity to? How many would go live with them in their homes, and forsake a wealthier, more luxurious residence?

Inara's doesn't quite fit into the upper class, not just as a companion who on certain planets may not be given the respect she's entitled to, but in her mindset. For a literary example, she's acts very like (am I really going to do this? Blech, this is embarrassing...) Elizabeth Bennett in Pride and Prejudice. A gentleman's daughter, happy, well-adjusted, affectionate family, but their home is not rich. I put Inara as being in somewhere around that level of social class because of how she acts towards people from all other walks of life.

Even IF she supported Unification, she's flaunting guild rule and Alliance law from the get-go. She's got a bit of a rebellious streak. Definitely got a stubborn streak. Underneath that cool veneer, I suspect she's a spark plug. So as a little girl, I see her being active, getting into trouble, consorting with children and people that might not be approved of. She'd have to have had the freedom to do so.

I don't think she was abused, she's so confident for that. She was raised with a lot of affection, but not necessarily indulgence, because she's not spoiled about getting her way. And she's comfortable in a big chaotic family.

I don't consider being raised in a guild/ church orphanage as a neglectful or impoverished. I think she had a good childhood. But I don't think she was raised by an upper-class family. Simon and River were raised by upper-class families. Do you really think that if River hadn't gone to the Academy, she wouldn't have turned out differently, might react to the crew and being on Serenity differently? I think she would have.

Lastly, in Safe, when Inara makes fun of the duck/swan carving, Kaylee makes fun of it too. "It looks like it was made with longing, you know... By someone who really longed to see a real swan." Inara never comments on the China kaylee picks up, Simon does, so we'll never know what Inara thought of it.

But what is clear, is that Inara is able to see beauty in things that are old, dirty, and beat-up. Otherwise how could she think Serenity is so beautiful?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 3:48 PM (P)

Also, why does everyone think Saffron owns Inara in that little scuffle? She doesn't, it's a stalemate.

From the shooting script:

Quote:
Saffron punches, hard but Inara blocks - a spinning kick from Saffron and Inara rolls out of the way, Saffron moving to the shuttle and slamming the door behind her.

Inara is on her feet in a heartbeat, racing toward the foredeck hall...

She had a different priority than stopping Saffron. Saffron doesn't take Inara down, doesn't beat her in hand-to-hand combat. Inara lets Saffron go, and Saffron lets Inara go. They just had to fight a little on principle.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
She's just so accepting of it, though. And maybe it's the eight months she had on the ship before the series started, but in Out of Gas, she seems to know EXACTLY the kind of business Mal's involved in right away. Doesn't seem to bother her then, either, and she turns around and offers Mal some practical "respectability."

But even Simon was able to tell that Serenity looked "disreputable" and a smart person with an active interest in the world around her wouldn't need to have personal experience of their world to guess what Mal gets up to. I really think it's partly an open-minded hope for adventure and the 8 months she spent getting used to the ship.

Quote:

She doesn't say, no, wait, I have a Guild contract and can't be involved with thieves and brigands. Why's she so comfortable? Why does she decide the risk is okay?

But what about a slightly rough and tumble life before the age of 12 would have made her think so, either? It's not like she spent her childhood living on a smuggling vessel with criminals. There is no reason a poor childhood should necessarily make her more comfortable with criminals, and no reason why more regular or wealthy childhood would make her much less so, considering she has the same things to lose either way.

Quote:

Slumming with a client? Maybe, but if that's her only contact with it, why wouldn't she be more condescending about it? Inara is NOT really condescending; yes, to Mal she is, but that's a defensive mechanism. And do you really compare Inara traveling with the crew of Serenity as her slumming with them? Slumming is... there's kind of an inherent judgement about it, "let's go see how the other half lives and entertain ourselves." That's not how I see her with the crew at all.

But why would Inara necessarily be judgmental of them? I wouldn't be condescending to people with a terribly poor lifestyle if I had chosen to live with them for a time. And Inara certainly never shows herself to be narrow-minded or arrogant. Neither does Simon, except toward Jayne.

I think Inara is looking for adventure and feels secure enough in her charatcer judgment and knowledge of the world to make herself semi-at home with the crew of Serenity, without needing to have previous connection to their world.

Quote:

Inara's doesn't quite fit into the upper class, not just as a companion who on certain planets may not be given the respect she's entitled to, but in her mindset.

Well, we have never seen the society Inara is truly from. We've seen a slice of Persephone, which is hardly Sihnon, but there is nothing to suggest that downright arrogance and sneering are acceptable practice there. I don't say there isn't classism, but I doubt Inara is that much of an exception simply because she considers poor people to be human beings of equal worth to herself. Simon is never arrogant, after all, and I think many are raised with that sort of attitude.

Quote:

Even IF she supported Unification, she's flaunting guild rule and Alliance law from the get-go. She's got a bit of a rebellious streak. Definitely got a stubborn streak. Underneath that cool veneer, I suspect she's a spark plug. So as a little girl, I see her being active, getting into trouble, consorting with children and people that might not be approved of.

She has her own code of ethics and a sense of adventure, granted, but I do not see her as rebellious at all. She's not contrary, not stubborn for the sake of pride and she doesn't have an abnormal temper, either. I don't think there is any perceived spite in her choices. I think she tolerates a lot because it doesn't go against her sense of ethics, or because she recognizes morally grey areas. I do NOT think that flaunting Alliance law - in a society SO controlled that even Simon's father is more afraid than self-assured - is that unusual. I think people from all tiers have an official and a private face about the Alliance and its many many rules

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:32 PM (P)

Quote:
But what is clear, is that Inara is able to see beauty in things that are old, dirty, and beat-up. Otherwise how could she think Serenity is so beautiful?

Many rich people love antiques, you know? This doesn't really imply anyhting.

Oh, and since you added the Elizabeth Bennet thing... that would actually work for me. They are hardly poor. They're just the poorer of the rich, not having to work and able to keep a few servants on their working farm/mini-estate. They have horses. They're part of a club that the comparable likes of Mal would never have access to, even if they're on the lowest end of it. Elizabeth doesn't really interact much with truly disapprovable types, either, and her open-mindedness is not out of nowhere, it's instilled by her father and not really stifled by her environment. Neither is she extremely rough-and-tumble aside from enjoying a muddy walk in the early morning. Eye-brow raising, not jaw-dropping.

That's a different picture than I originally got from your descriptions.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:45 PM (P)

I got a bit of work to do now, bit worried about getting in trouble, but I've got some quick responses. I'll give a longer response later.

Simon is very arrogant at times. He doesn't mean to be, but when he describes the plates Kaylee was looking at in safe as "crap", that isn't even spawned by his annoyance at the Captain or his inability to really see Serenity as much more than run down garbage.

Also, my impression of Kaylee in that scene is that she's joking around with Inara. She knows that the store isn't well supplied or very rich, even describes it as "dusty." Both she and Inara are commenting on it. I seem to recall after Kaylee's comment that they both laugh a little bit.

NCBROWNCOAT

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:49 PM (P)

Didn't Moreana say that being a Companion was a "family businnes"? I see her as a daughter of a Companion, raised by a loving foster family in high middle to upper class (her mother made sure she went to the best preschools and elementary schools). And her mother would breeze in for tea every once and while.

She does posses some martial skills and her hand to hand especially seems for "school oriented" and not a all like the dirty fighting of Mal and Jayne.

She does seem that with some training she could be a very good marksman and able to handle weapons bigger than a bow or a hand held laser.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:50 PM (P)

A guild orphanage is going to be somewhat more towards the low-end of the gentleman/woman class than other orphanages.

The only real difference I would imagine between the two situations (besides the obvious) is that Inara is going to be in a big city, and is going to have more contact with the lower/rougher classes simply by proximity than Elizabeth ever did.

I said that she probably ran around LIKE a street urchin. Not that she was one. Didn't mean to give that impression. :)

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 4:57 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I got a bit of work to do now, bit worried about getting in trouble, but I've got some quick responses. I'll give a longer response later.

Simon is very arrogant at times. He doesn't mean to be, but when he describes the plates Kaylee was looking at in safe as "crap", that isn't even spawned by his annoyance at the Captain or his inability to really see Serenity as much more than run down garbage.

I dare you to find one more example. That's the only scene where we see Simon lash out in an unfair way and I think it is entirely due to the stress he's been under and Mal's condescending/domineering treatment. Kaylee's naive but good-natured suggestion that he enjoy himself sets him off on a rant - and yes, I think he considers the plate crap. Inara probably considers is crap, too, but doesn't say so. oesn't mean it reflects his genuine attitude toward lower classes or the Rim, as much as it reflects his frustation with his impossible situation.

Quote:

Also, my impression of Kaylee in that scene is that she's joking around with Inara. She knows that the store isn't well supplied or very rich, even describes it as "dusty." Both she and Inara are commenting on it.

She doesn't say the shop is dusty. Where do you find that? She does, however say that she likes the plate, prompting Inara to say "You do?" in a slightly incredulous way, which prompts that explanation about longing. Heck, she thinks that plate would make a good gift for Simon and looks "rich"... until Simon enters, causing Kaylee to mold her entire behavior to what he says.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
A guild orphanage is going to be somewhat more towards the low-end of the gentleman/woman class than other orphanages.

The only real difference I would imagine between the two situations (besides the obvious) is that Inara is going to be in a big city, and is going to have more contact with the lower/rougher classes simply by proximity than Elizabeth ever did.

I said that she probably ran around LIKE a street urchin. Not that she was one. Didn't mean to give that impression. :)

But why would a Guild orphanage (for a Companion's child, no less, not some random poor child in need) be located in a part of town where kids would have easy and regular access to rougher classes? Inara starts Guild training at 12 and I doubt they let them just roam the entire city unsupervised while they were much younger than that.

Considering that the Bennets had farming and house-keeping staff from lower classes, Elizabeth might have had easier contact there than Inara would in a well-tended care facility.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:10 PM (P)

Hmm. I guess I sort of take my impression on how it might be from children who are the wards of other institutions.

While the children of the guild would be important to the guild in the sense of being prospective future companions... It's not where the guild's focus is, I think.

Much like the Christian Church in Europe. They care for orphans, yes, but the church is more geared towards the training and practice of the clergy and their patrons.

And, of course, I think that children from rich upper class families might be courted for future guild positions by the guild more carefully than children already in their charge.

Plus, kids. They're always going places where they aren't supposed to, and I seriously doubt the guild would place their orphans under guarded watch.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:23 PM (P)

Quote:

KAYLEE
Everything's dusty.

INARA
Does it seem every supply store on
every border planet has the same five
rag dolls and the same wood carvings
of...
(looking at one)
What is this? A duck?

KAYLEE
That's a swan. And I like it.

INARA
You do?

KAYLEE
It looks like it was made with, you
know... longing. Made by a person
really longed to see a swan.

INARA
Perhaps because they'd only heard of
them by rough description.

Kaylee holds up a little painted souvenir dish with painted chinese characters on it.

KAYLEE
You think this'd make a nice gift?

INARA
A gift? For whom?

Kaylee just studies the dish.

KAYLEE
I just think it's nice. Kinda rich,
you know.

INARA
Oh. For Simon.

KAYLEE
I didn't say that.

INARA
Well, you don't do a very good job of
hiding your interest.

KAYLEE
He's just so < cute >. You wanna take
a bite out of him all over, you know?

Just then, Simon and River enter. Simon is nervous about being out and visible, a little frazzled at having to watch River constantly.

INARA
(to Kaylee)
Careful.

KAYLEE
Did he hear? I don't think he heard.
(louder, maybe too
loud)
Mornin', you two!

Kaylee's over-bright greeting just makes Simon more jumpy. He forces a smile, nods.

INARA
We don't usually see you two out and
about planetside.

SIMON
(tense)
We're trying something different
today.

River immediately goes to the farming equipment, starts touching things.

SIMON (cont'd)
River, careful with that, that's...
(helplessly to Kaylee)
What is that?

KAYLEE
That's a post holer. You dig holes.
For posts.

SIMON
(to River)
It's dirty and sharp. Come over here.

He steers her over to the crafts section with the women. He picks up the little dish Kaylee was admiring.

SIMON (cont'd)
(reads the Chinese)
"Jiangyin, Prairie Paradise."
(then)
Good God. They ask money for this
< crap >?

From Jaynestown, selected quotes.

Quote:
SIMON
Well. Canton really--
(breathes in)
--really stinks.

So, this is a place where they... they
make mud? A mud-based economy. That's almost
interesting.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. I guess I sort of take my impression on how it might be from children who are the wards of other institutions.

While the children of the guild would be important to the guild in the sense of being prospective future companions... It's not where the guild's focus is, I think.

Much like the Christian Church in Europe. They care for orphans, yes, but the church is more geared towards the training and practice of the clergy and their patrons.

And, of course, I think that children from rich upper class families might be courted for future guild positions by the guild more carefully than children already in their charge.

Plus, kids. They're always going places where they aren't supposed to, and I seriously doubt the guild would place their orphans under guarded watch.

Not guarded watch, no, but I guess I just don't see Inara unmotivatedly wandering the bad parts of Sihnon for contact with the unwashed masses. She probably had hobbies or read or did friend-type things with the kids already around her, and I don't see them being "rough kids", either. Why would the Guild put her in with kids who would either have behavioral or educational deficits? Why would they dabble in that at all?

I don't think the Guild is trying to raise it's own new Companions in such an institution but I do think they would aim to guarantee a higher end education and environment than a regular orphanage. They do not have the universal approach of the church, nor do they need to be open to everyone. I don't think they run lots of orphanages, though they may charitably give to them. If Inara was indeed raised by a Guild care facility, as opposed to her own mother or a foster mother, I think it would have been a smaller, exclusive place. Why would the Guild take over the raising of a Companion's child at all, if it wouldn't grant a certain privilege to that child, as opposed to handing her over to other relatives or an Alliance institution?

If anything, we can expect that the Alliance would have structures in place and that they would be well-regulated. Brain-washingly so, maybe, but nothing to motivate the Guild to set up a big rivaling program for anyone outside their own circle to begin with.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

KAYLEE
Everything's dusty.

INARA
Does it seem every supply store on
every border planet has the same five
rag dolls and the same wood carvings
of...
(looking at one)
What is this? A duck?

KAYLEE
That's a swan. And I like it.

INARA
You do?

KAYLEE
It looks like it was made with, you
know... longing. Made by a person
really longed to see a swan.

INARA
Perhaps because they'd only heard of
them by rough description.

Kaylee holds up a little painted souvenir dish with painted chinese characters on it.

KAYLEE
You think this'd make a nice gift?

INARA
A gift? For whom?

Kaylee just studies the dish.

KAYLEE
I just think it's nice. Kinda rich,
you know.

INARA
Oh. For Simon.

KAYLEE
I didn't say that.

INARA
Well, you don't do a very good job of
hiding your interest.

KAYLEE
He's just so < cute >. You wanna take
a bite out of him all over, you know?

Just then, Simon and River enter. Simon is nervous about being out and visible, a little frazzled at having to watch River constantly.

INARA
(to Kaylee)
Careful.

KAYLEE
Did he hear? I don't think he heard.
(louder, maybe too
loud)
Mornin', you two!

Kaylee's over-bright greeting just makes Simon more jumpy. He forces a smile, nods.

INARA
We don't usually see you two out and
about planetside.

SIMON
(tense)
We're trying something different
today.

River immediately goes to the farming equipment, starts touching things.

SIMON (cont'd)
River, careful with that, that's...
(helplessly to Kaylee)
What is that?

KAYLEE
That's a post holer. You dig holes.
For posts.

SIMON
(to River)
It's dirty and sharp. Come over here.

He steers her over to the crafts section with the women. He picks up the little dish Kaylee was admiring.

SIMON (cont'd)
(reads the Chinese)
"Jiangyin, Prairie Paradise."
(then)
Good God. They ask money for this
< crap >?

I think this may be the shooting script. I took my clues from the actual episode transcript, and my embarrassingly detailed memory of certain scene deliveries:

It's a little bit different in small details, without the dusty line and without the "did he hear?" part.

http://firefly.shriftweb.org/scripts/107.shtml

But even if it had been shot with that opening line, it wouldn't change the way the rest of it is delivered. Kaylee's not joking about the merchandise. She may smile through it, but she's not making fun of it.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:38 PM (P)

No, wouldn't be for people outside their circle... But they're kids. Even if Inara wasn't a little rapscallion, it's almost guaranteed someone in the orphanage would have been. And since we don't exactly know how many companions and training houses there are in the system, I doubt there's going to be enough companion orphans on every planet to justify a guild orphanage on every planet. So they're probably consolidated into one place.

I just see the orphanage kids all wandering the big city together during the day when they have free time. And playing with any other kids they meet... Who may not be from the same social class. Who's going to stop them, if the guild isn't watching them all the time?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:39 PM (P)

Different interpretations, I guess. I thought after Kaylee's comment, and Inara's comment, they both kind of laughed.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 5:52 PM (P)

I've been talking a lot about what I think. What do you think?

I gather you think she comes from an upper-class family?

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, July 9, 2009 7:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I've been talking a lot about what I think. What do you think?

I gather you think she comes from an upper-class family?

Upper class, upper middle class... something like that. I think she is very at home within those circles, if not emotionally, then habitually, socially, from early on. By the age of 12, she would have had a fairly solid social identity, methinks, and I don't see even a decade of Guild training erasing that, and I simply do not feel any "from lowly roots" things from her, in her interactions with people who actually are from lowly roots. I also think her socialising in any meaningful manner with "rough" kids would be more unlikely than not and also wouldn't be necessary to explain any of her interactions on the show.

What makes her different, to me, is not that she originally doesn't belong, but that she has always been singled out for beauty and talent and that she feels a particular restlessness, a longing for difference. (For whatever speculative or spoilerly reason.)

More generally about her childhood:
She definitely didn't have a normal nuclear family, but considering how somewhat solitary she is - and judging by Nandi's comments, probably always has been - she doesn't strike me as someone who was comfortably socialised in a big group in early childhood. I see her as having one fair exclusive female care giver, be that her mother or a foster parent or other kind of guardian. I don't think she has close living family. If there are distant relatives or an estranged father alive somewhere, she has no contact with them. The Guild would have felt like a natural extension of that female guardianship.

GILLIANROSE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 8:16 PM (P)

What strikes me about Inara is her clear-thinking emotional and physical courage in dangerous situations. In the movie, we don't learn what transpired to make Inara call Serenity and get them to come to the Training House, but I think there must have been considerable pressure and menace. She already knows the Operative is a scary fellow. Then, when he and Mal start fighting, Inara can see what he is doing. She's learned some martial arts (the Blu-Ray documents make mention of this, right?), so she has an educated eye. When she watches the Operative, she can see all of the things he is doing right, all of the moves he has mastered. His strategy. I imagine her very quickly sizing him up, comparing him to, for example, her martial arts teachers from school or other practitioners she knows. And she can evaluate him and know that he is very, very good, and that he is acting with deadly intent. Inara knows how outclassed Mal is, how outclassed she is, and she goes in anyway, twice. She must know she has no chance of prevailing against the Operative, she's basically stepping in and getting beaten as a way to buy Mal a few seconds' time, to give him the chance to still be alive when her "incense" goes off. And she does this probably knowing that the Operative could kill her if he spared a few seconds to do it. I think it's incredibly courageous.

I have my own ideas about Inara's family life, but that's another long, long post.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 8:40 PM (P)

It's funny, because I see that possibility too in Inara, AR.

I think that her open-mindedness, tolerance, and sense of humour were allowed to develop on their own without interference... But she also has grace and restraint and a nurturing way about her that go beyond just guild training, which also does suggest a single very watchful female caretaker.

I wonder really if it couldn't have been both. I know that sounds weird, but maybe she was in an orphanage like that, and at the same time had the High Priestess of House Madrassa grooming her for later companion training, too. In a good way, not a creepy child sex slavery way, with Inara taking interest in the companion way at a young age because of her mother.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 8:44 PM (P)

I don't know about the Blu-Ray companion documents, but I know for a fact that at least the Serenity RPG manual lists her as competent in martial arts and her new-tech bow.

Obviously, she's better at talking her way out of situations, but I think the suggestion is she's not necessarily a slouch, and that she can be underestimated by someone if they're not expecting it.

GILLIANROSE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 10:58 PM (P)

Well said - she's not a slouch, and, as for underestimating any female in the Jossverse, well, it's not the smart thing to do :) I've been thinking about the martial arts, the fencing, it's something she could practice with other people, but in a very defined way, with rituals, procedures, traditions, in a way it's a way to reach out and be with others but also still have those built-in protections.

And good point about the talking her way out - she took the conversation very smoothly in hand in Bushwhacked, and even chanced an exchange with the dangerous and obviously crazy Jubal Early. What an interesting character.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, July 9, 2009 11:13 PM (P)

Tracked down the companion papers, since the RPG may not be canon. They say yes, Companions are ALL trained in martial arts.

Quote:
Guild-certified Training Houses instruct students in history, culture, spirituality, music, dance, self-defense, and, of course, the art of love, providing Guild Companions with a vast array of skills that enable them to converse on any subject, perform in any capacity, and satisfy even the most discriminating clients.

JACKWABBIT

Friday, July 10, 2009 4:14 AM (P)

Wow! I'm flattered that my little fic stirred up such a discussion! I'm not over here much, and I hope my reply is in the right spot (this site is hard for me to navigate for some reason, which is why I'm not here often), but I wanted to say that I truly appreciate lively debate about our favorite show, so I'm glad my little piece could play a part in stirring the blood.

I'm way tired and need to get to bed as work comes early, but...let's see...story wasn't meant to mean that Inara was poverty-stricken but rather a normal girl. Normal children of both genders get into schoolyard fights. The mom...didn't set out to write her at all, but then she came to me and wouldn't let me go. I see her, in this fic at any rate, as overbearing/very strict and wanting to be in the upper echelons of society but not quite there.

You know the type-wanting more for their children and pushing too hard for it. This woman is a woman of class, but not quite enough class to be where she wants to be. That sort of thing. So, she pushes her daughter to be more constantly and doesn't want her to be a normal child, etc, but instead a perfect one, and she'll stop at nothing to get that.

As far as the "family business" thing...hm...I forgot about that...my bad...but could not the companion in the family been an aunt? A grandmother? Etc? Perhaps that's what gave mom that big old chip on her shoulder.

Honestly, this is a stand-alone little piece that is one view of Inara's past. I certainly don't stand by it as the only one...I might even write another story another day that presents a different view. I'm fluid like that.

But again, that's how I meant this one, and I'm happy to have raised some discussion.

Thanks for starting this, Bytemite. I'm truly flattered. (And FollowMal-I didn't know you read my fic?!)

Oh, and yes, Inara can hold her own. And deep down, she ain't as much of a "lady" as she lets on. That IS my honest opinion that ain't likely to change, unlike the mom/past angle.

JACKWABBIT

Friday, July 10, 2009 4:26 AM (P)

PS-there have been some truly interesting viewpoints here...and I like them! I only just now got mostly caught up on the posts. More to talk about, but really must away to slumber.

Night, all!

BYTEMITE

Friday, July 10, 2009 4:41 AM (P)

Thanks for clarifying. That's kind of how I interpretted your fic, but it's good to know your reasoning behind your choices too. I can see where you were coming from with her mother now. Kind of brings to mind her comment in Trash "You are not my mother, , or anyone else who has any say in my choices." I think that suggests SOMEONE may have taken extra special care of Inara's instruction.

I often change my mind too, but some ideas stick around with me long enough that I begin to include them into my over-all theory.

Man, I have a THEORY about Inara, a fictional character. That's really kind of sad. Oh well, she's fun to talk about. I think Joss Whedon outdid himself depicting her in season one, you just get glimpses of her different sides, but she could be so many things. Very mysterious.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 10, 2009 6:01 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:

Oh, and yes, Inara can hold her own. And deep down, she ain't as much of a "lady" as she lets on. That IS my honest opinion that ain't likely to change, unlike the mom/past angle.

Perhaps we just differ in our definition of lady, mayhaps?

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 10, 2009 6:02 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Man, I have a THEORY about Inara, a fictional character. That's really kind of sad.

Not really. I say, if we can talk about Elizabeth Bennet without being embarrassed then we can talk about Inara.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 10, 2009 6:11 AM (P)

I'm really glad we have generally similar views, even if we differ on some details.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I wonder really if it couldn't have been both. I know that sounds weird, but maybe she was in an orphanage like that, and at the same time had the High Priestess of House Madrassa grooming her for later companion training, too. In a good way, not a creepy child sex slavery way, with Inara taking interest in the companion way at a young age because of her mother.

I guess that still sounds a little too emotionally distant for me, like an occasional visit, or an observing teacher role. I don't disagree that such a person easily could have existed in her life, as well, but for me there was a much more present female care giver, who did all those mother-type things that come easily to Inara with the rest of the crew: hugging, hair-petting, emotional support, gentle teasing. A bond that's more personal, frequent and beyond grooming for a brighter future.

I really think we not that far apart in our views, though, that it impacts our understanding of Inara's character in most instances. At least, I get that impression from your posts, usually. :)

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 10, 2009 6:13 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:

I have my own ideas about Inara's family life, but that's another long, long post.

Yes, please?

GILLIANROSE

Friday, July 10, 2009 11:45 AM (P)

I keep coming back to Inara's behavior concerning River, from the beginning, but most especially in the BDM. Brave, as I said before; also, consistently nurturing and tolerant, and very adult. Inara acts as one who has clearly defined, deeply felt moral standards and obligations regarding a child in her care. I think that comes from being loved and cared for, day after day, by a woman that she loved - and, importantly - admired very much. Maybe they weren't congruent as far as temperment; maybe Inara and her mother didn't understand each other very easily, that may be a reason for the reserve, the emotional caution that is so much a part of her. I also think about the maternal aspect of Inara when I watch her very first conversation with Simon, about the immunization packets and Simon's behavior after Dobson shoots Kaylee. She is gentle with him in word and manner, but she doesn't let him off automatically. I hear a clear moral challenge in her tone when she explains how dear Kaylee is to all of them. I see it in her face when she waits, quietly, while he stammers out his miserable reply. Then she very quickly reads him as sincere, and offers him honest empathy. It's very intriguing to me, as I think about it, what she reveals to him when she describes herself as "lost in the woods" along with everyone else. Hmmm. So very personal. That bears more cogitatin'.

And, I don't necessarily think Inara had an absentee or unknown father growing up. I don't want to make the assumption that if Inara's mother was a Companion or retired Companion, she couldn't have had a stable relationship with the father of her children. I don't think her family is healthy and whole when we meet her, but there are so, so many ways for a family to fall apart, so many ways for hearts to get broken that have nothing to do with Companioning. Especially in times of political unrest and war.

BYTEMITE

Friday, July 10, 2009 2:39 PM (P)

I think it's possible for companions to marry have children, and be happy. Complicated, like Inara says, they probably have to apply to the guild, and work out pre-nuptials and different versions of their contract if they want to continue to keep practicing... The guild might even evaluate prospective partners to make sure they meet some kind of standard for the continued respectable image of the guild and other companions.

If a practicing companion gets involved with someone without all the oversight, I suspect there'd be a LOT of trouble, and so generally companions and the guild all try to be ambiguous about whether they're allowed to have relationships on the side. It discourages issues with the clients who feel more than the companion does.

I imagine most companions prefer to retire instead, or take up teaching the companion skill, passing it on to their daughters in the way of geisha. Except for the sex parts, because that would be squicky.

BYTEMITE

Friday, July 10, 2009 5:59 PM (P)

AR: Maybe the High Priestess was the "Abbess" so to speak of the orphanage, and had connection to House Madrassa. I wonder how many Priestesses one house might have?

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 10, 2009 9:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
She knows how to use a bow and swords, and in her profession, it would make sense if she could handle herself in hand-to-hand combat.

Combat? Self-defense training makes sense to me, but combat doesn't at all. Companions are lovers, not fighters. I am quite sure Inara knows how to defend her own person, but she's surely not someone who's been trained for all-out combat. I believe that's part of the reason for the bow and arrows in the movie - that's a sport weapon, and makes sense that a Companion would how to use it. She wouldn't be so good with a big ole gun.

I'm all with you, though, that Inara isn't a helpless damsel. Fics that present her like that are pretty much unreadable to me!

Quote:
Also, I see Inara as having been a bit of a rough and tumble little girl, before she began Companion training. She seems very at home in an old trampy freighter, and in a low-class dive watching Mal and Jayne shoot billiards.

Actually, on the episode commentary, Joss says that that opening scene in the bar was meant to show that Inara is not at home in Mal's world. It's part of the whole arc - she doesn't fit in his world, he doesn't fit in her world, but in the end they find that they don't fit in their own worlds either, and are happiest to share engine brew in the cargo bay. (Joss said it better, I'm sure! Shit - or was it Jane? Did Jane Espenson do the commentary for that one?)

As to your first point: I do like to think that Inara had a different kind of upbringing from the Guild, just because it seems rare that a Companion would choose to join a freighter. I think it's been made clear that she was running from something, but she had to have some reason for choosing Serenity. If she'd been a total upper class snob, she'd have chosen something much nicer.

But we don't know what drove her out of her life in the Guild, and we don't know how uncomfortable she might have been in her first days on board. She certainly wasn't warm and cuddly in her first meeting with Mal. She was a bit of a condescending snob actually. ("...on a vessel of this... type.") So I don't see that she's comfortable in this "edge of the Rim" life. I do see that she's open to it, and I think there must be a reason for it.

BTW - this line of reasoning was behind the background I wrote for her in my fic, which was lower class though not abusive or at all violent. I wrote humble roots for her because I wanted to explain why she ran to Serenity. But I don't think my take is canon because of what Joss has said about her mother being in the same business.

Anyhow, Inara does enjoy the "adventures", and certainly isn't too bothered when the crew crosses the line of the law, as long as no one is harmed. I don't think that's because she's rebellious in nature. She's basically respectful of the Alliance. Supported them even. But I think she holds her own morals above what the government defines as proper.

As to the inspiration fic, it seems a fun little bit of AU, an interesting version of Inara's background. But I don't think it rings true to the character. (From jackwabbit's post here, I don't think it was meant to.) Canon Inara just doesn't have that kind of violence in her.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 10, 2009 9:22 PM (P)

ETA: also meant to say - what's up with the orphanage thing? I'm having a hard time picturing the Guild as an orphanage, since it's something that's highly respected, damned competitive, and very much associated with luxury and wealth.

I mean, surely the Novices don't get silks and jewels from the age of 12, but little orphan Annies sleeping in bare dorms... Really?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BYTEMITE

Friday, July 10, 2009 9:28 PM (P)

Well, there's a difference between the training house, and an orphanage. I don't think they'd be housed in the same building... Or that the training house would even be in the same building as the business offices and companion quarters for House Madrassa.

Kids can be a bit destructive. Stains, torn fabric, knicks, broken things... I'm not so sure if I were the guild, and my main interest was simply providing shelter, food, clothing, and a rudimentary education for orphans, that I'd surround them with things that are expensive and irreplaceable.

Inara is ALWAYS a condescending snob to Mal, doesn't mean she is one or started out one. In that particular case, she was acting that way to negotiate a better price for the rent.

Hand to hand combat does not mean combat/war and gun-training.

I like something GillianRose wrote about in The Misfortune, how Inara slowly comes around to understanding the crew's rule breaking. But I also think... She likes breaking rules. Thinks it's thrilling.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 10, 2009 10:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Kids can be a bit destructive. Stains, torn fabric, knicks, broken things... I'm not so sure if I were the guild, and my main interest was simply providing shelter, food, clothing, and a rudimentary education for orphans, that I'd surround them with things that are expensive and irreplaceable.

I'm missing something: are you saying that the Guild has a side mission working with orphans, orphans who have nothing to do with the actual business of the Guild? If so - cool. Guild doing charity work - I like it!

Or are you saying that the kids who get into the Guild start in the orphanage, as in the Novices actually live in the dorms until they grow up a bit? That's the concept that would stump me. My bad if it's not what you meant.

Quote:
Inara is ALWAYS a condescending snob to Mal, doesn't mean she is one or started out one. In that particular case, she was acting that way to negotiate a better price for the rent.

LOL! How come everytime I chat with you it goes so quickly off topic?

My point was not about any Mal/Inara dynamic, it was about Inara's comfort level with Serenity's way of life. You are claiming (correct me if I'm wrong!) that she is comfortable with it, so much so that she must of been of some lower class before joining the Guild. I was responding to that issue, and that only.

And my point was: I don't see the comfort level. Besides, the opening scene in Shindig makes the point that she doesn't belong there. Of course, the same episode makes the point that she doesn't belong in "her" world either, so there certainly is wiggle room there. She's got some kind of complicated background, that's for sure!

Quote:
Hand to hand combat does not mean combat/war and gun-training.

Uhh... then what do you mean by "hand-to-hand combat" and "bad-ass"? Because when you say those words in a Joss-verse, I picture Inara going all River.

Quote:
I like something GillianRose wrote about in The Misfortune, how Inara slowly comes around to understanding the crew's rule breaking. But I also think... She likes breaking rules. Thinks it's thrilling.

I like GillianRose's ideas too.

But I don't see Inara getting any joy-ride thrill out of rule-breaking purely for the sake of rule-breaking. She sure as hell got a thrill out of out-foxing Saffron, but that was because Saffron needed a take-down.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BYTEMITE

Friday, July 10, 2009 11:56 PM (P)

Quote:
I'm missing something: are you saying that the Guild has a side mission working with orphans, orphans who have nothing to do with the actual business of the Guild? If so - cool. Guild doing charity work - I like it!

It would have to be supplemental to whatever programs the Alliance runs, but on big worlds, just like in our world today, I think there would have to be spill-over to other institutions. I'm not exactly sure how that would work, but there's two ways I can think of the orphanages being organized. Either they take only selected children (maybe some who didn't have a companion as a parent, on a case-by-case basis), and the orphanage is consolidated into one place, or the guild, like religious groups in current times, may try to set up orphanages as they can wherever they are located, and take whatever children they can. For charity, like you said, and because of the spiritual side of the guild. But they would always, always take the orphans of companions, because that would be what the orphanages were originally set up for.

In the event that a companion dies with children and no one to look after them, guaranteed Guild care would be kind of a perk. There might even be some kind of day care component in there too, for the busy practicing companion mother.

But no, I don't see active recruiting of companions out of the program or coercion or brainwashing involved... Unless the child expresses an interest in joining the guild and receiving training. Otherwise, I picture them receiving a general Alliance sanctioned education until they're 12, and receiving scholarship and support to go into whatever programs at the Academy they choose. Hopefully not any of the ones involving surgery, but I get the impression that not all of the curriculum at the Academy involves violations of human rights. River and whoever her classmates were seem to have been special cases.

Quote:
My point was not about any Mal/Inara dynamic, it was about Inara's comfort level with Serenity's way of life. You are claiming (correct me if I'm wrong!) that she is comfortable with it, so much so that she must of been of some lower class before joining the Guild. I was responding to that issue, and that only.

And my point was: I don't see the comfort level. Besides, the opening scene in Shindig makes the point that she doesn't belong there. Of course, the same episode makes the point that she doesn't belong in "her" world either, so there certainly is wiggle room there. She's got some kind of complicated background, that's for sure!

Heh heh, that was one of the few times where I wasn't bringing up the Mal/Inara dynamic. :) I was just explaining how Inara isn't a snob, and why that reflects on her background. The specific example just happened to involve Mal.

I actually think Inara was very comfortable at least until the fight broke out, which is more an example of Mal's issues than it is an example of normal lower class life. Afterwards, during the fight... I don't know. Clearly she was nervous when the fight started and when they made their get-away. She didn't ACT happy then, I admit, maybe because it was getting too dangerous. But when Mal first steals the money off the slavers, I have a hard time reading her. There are rare times she approves of some of Mal's darker behaviour, like when he shoots Dobson. But other times, like when he catches the kid who picks his pocket in the Message, she just shakes her head in disapproval. There's a lot of contradiction in her, her "Robin Hood" references and what not.

In fact... Now that I think of it, do you think that may be a reflection of how Mal treats her profession? Disapproving face-to-face, but when the other is out of earshot, suddenly the other's job is "honest work" or "noble?"

Quote:
But I don't see Inara getting any joy-ride thrill out of rule-breaking purely for the sake of rule-breaking. She sure as hell got a thrill out of out-foxing Saffron, but that was because Saffron needed a take-down.

Like you said, I think there's wiggle room

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:21 AM (P)

Also, both Inara and Kaylee do laugh after kaylee's "longing" comment, and after Simon goes off on his tirade and tells him off about not thinking much of the people who chose this life, Inara gives him a look as she follows Kaylee out. It's hard to read again, it's not angry, it's not sympathetic, it's seems to me to be somewhere between disapproving, troubled, and unhappy.

http://www.thewb.com/shows/firefly/clip-actually-i-was-being-ironic/e6
4bd01015

JACKWABBIT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:31 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:

Oh, and yes, Inara can hold her own. And deep down, she ain't as much of a "lady" as she lets on. That IS my honest opinion that ain't likely to change, unlike the mom/past angle.

Perhaps we just differ in our definition of lady, mayhaps?

Indeed. I think Inara does have all the outward appearances of being lady-like, but deep down she does enjoy getting her hands a bit dirty, so to speak. It's Trash that makes me certain of this. She looooooves her role there.

JACKWABBIT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:42 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Thanks for clarifying. That's kind of how I interpretted your fic, but it's good to know your reasoning behind your choices too. I can see where you were coming from with her mother now. Kind of brings to mind her comment in Trash "You are not my mother, , or anyone else who has any say in my choices." I think that suggests SOMEONE may have taken extra special care of Inara's instruction.

I often change my mind too, but some ideas stick around with me long enough that I begin to include them into my over-all theory.

Man, I have a THEORY about Inara, a fictional character. That's really kind of sad. Oh well, she's fun to talk about. I think Joss Whedon outdid himself depicting her in season one, you just get glimpses of her different sides, but she could be so many things. Very mysterious.

Having a theory is in no way, shape, or form pathetic. I quite like that you have a theory, thank you.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 5:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Also, both Inara and Kaylee do laugh after kaylee's "longing" comment, and after Simon goes off on his tirade and tells him off about not thinking much of the people who chose this life, Inara gives him a look as she follows Kaylee out. It's hard to read again, it's not angry, it's not sympathetic, it's seems to me to be somewhere between disapproving, troubled, and unhappy.

http://www.thewb.com/shows/firefly/clip-actually-i-was-being-ironic/e6
4bd01015

Sadly, I can't watch that clip outside the U.S., but I'll popped in my DVD for a quick peek as soon as my roommates disconnect their video game equipement. There's... cables and things. I'm not touching those on my own.

But I will get back to this!

Regarding the orphanage... the more I think about it, the less I can get behind the idea of Inara having shared her female caretaker with other kids. I really think a foster mother or legal guardian is as far as I can see it, everything else leaves her too isolated and integrated into a big group of peers, which I can see for her later at the training house, but not earlier when the foundations for her warm, intimate personality are laid.

I'm not saying I hate the orphanage theory on principle (though I don't see the education there being "rudimentary"), it's just that it doesn't work with how I perceive Inara. Just like I see Mal's leadership style as a reflection of his own mother, I see Inara's nurturing kindness as a reflection of her "mother", something close, intimate, warm and secure.

Not to be down on orphanages, but it's just not something I see them providing to that extend and there's probably a reason things like adoption and foster care are often viewed as healthier for a child, right?

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 5:59 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:

Oh, and yes, Inara can hold her own. And deep down, she ain't as much of a "lady" as she lets on. That IS my honest opinion that ain't likely to change, unlike the mom/past angle.

Perhaps we just differ in our definition of lady, mayhaps?

Indeed. I think Inara does have all the outward appearances of being lady-like, but deep down she does enjoy getting her hands a bit dirty, so to speak. It's Trash that makes me certain of this. She looooooves her role there.

Do you associate weakness, shallowness and emotional passivity with being a lady? Basically, do you consider the term "bad" to begin with, or have a fairly narrow definition? Because to me, Inara IS a lady. Self-possessed, educated, ethical, courages, caring about others, plus all that charm and wit. She's not without flaws (bouts of denial, fear of intimacy) but that doesn't disqualify her.

I think the Saffron thing is actually an exception. Mind, this was a woman who tried to kill them all, and joyfully so, which makes the entire incident rather personal. Plus, Inara's part isn't exactly the fist-fighting, hair-pulling kind. She holds a gun, is a little smug (rightfully so, outfoxing Saffron is a thing to be proud of) and pushes a button.

Sure, there's a smidge of petty joy involved there, but we already know Inara has a sense of humor and occasionally enjoys smugness. That may not be "ladylike" in the way a strict governess might interpret, but it doesn't imply that Inara enjoys getting her hands actually dirty.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 6:15 AM (P)

Thank you for sharing, GillianRose!

Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
I keep coming back to Inara's behavior concerning River, from the beginning, but most especially in the BDM. Brave, as I said before; also, consistently nurturing and tolerant, and very adult. Inara acts as one who has clearly defined, deeply felt moral standards and obligations regarding a child in her care. I think that comes from being loved and cared for, day after day, by a woman that she loved - and, importantly - admired very much.

Yes, that.

Quote:

Maybe they weren't congruent as far as temperment; maybe Inara and her mother didn't understand each other very easily, that may be a reason for the reserve, the emotional caution that is so much a part of her.

I think she had to grow up too fast, was among adults a lot. I keep picturing her mother as impaired in some way. Deafness was a theory of mine once, followed by sudden death, or slowly dying from a certain point on. Something that would both develop Inara's emotional self-control, her ability to attune to others, her spirituality and her taking refuge in idealised fantasies. Taking refuge by leaving, in general, really.

Quote:

I also think about the maternal aspect of Inara when I watch her very first conversation with Simon, about the immunization packets and Simon's behavior after Dobson shoots Kaylee. She is gentle with him in word and manner, but she doesn't let him off automatically. I hear a clear moral challenge in her tone when she explains how dear Kaylee is to all of them. I see it in her face when she waits, quietly, while he stammers out his miserable reply. Then she very quickly reads him as sincere, and offers him honest empathy. It's very intriguing to me, as I think about it, what she reveals to him when she describes herself as "lost in the woods" along with everyone else. Hmmm. So very personal. That bears more cogitatin'.

That's well-described, and one of the crucial scenes in introducing her. That ability and also compulsion to "read" others and coax out both information and perhaps things they need to voice in order to deal with a situation. Just like with Book later, she probably cannot not try to help.

Quote:

And, I don't necessarily think Inara had an absentee or unknown father growing up. I don't want to make the assumption that if Inara's mother was a Companion or retired Companion, she couldn't have had a stable relationship with the father of her children. I don't think her family is healthy and whole when we meet her, but there are so, so many ways for a family to fall apart, so many ways for hearts to get broken that have nothing to do with Companioning. Especially in times of political unrest and war.

I'm not making that assumption based in Inara's mother's possible profession, actually. I have no feelings about whether she was one or not, other than that there was no pressure for Inara to follow in her footsteps. The absent father thing, for me, is more based in Inara herself. Actually similarly to Mal, in how they deal with male authority figures or men in general.

I don't think her father was a negative figure, but I don't see him as a strong influence at all.

Definitely agreeing about the Companions and relationships, though. And about the many ways families can crumble.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:38 PM (P)

Okay, I rewatched the store scene on DVD.

To me it seems, like Kaylee still is entirely genuine in defending the carving, keeps her eyes on it, doesn't ironically smile when stating she likes it or starting up with the longing, but toward the end of her explanation, I think she breaks into this grin, partly because of enthusiasm, partly because the sadly funny aspect of "longing to see a swan" catches up with her. Inara starts laughing because of Kaylee's enthusiasm.

On another level, I really like this scene because of the symbolism. Kaylee often considers herself the ugly duckling, has insecurity issues about Simon's world, longs for pretty things like that layercake dress. "Longing to see (or be) a swan" is a big aspect of her.

GILLIANROSE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:29 PM (P)

I agree with your read on that little scene, I think Kaylee liked the knick-knacks. And, no one will convince me she did not wheedle at least one bobble-headed geisha doll out of her Captain :)

I'll rewatch Inara's glance at Simon before she and Kaylee walk out, but if memory serves, she is decidedly NOT empathetic with him at that moment. Her expression doesn't lessen his dismay, as I recall, and it's not intended to.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...take whatever children they can. For charity, like you said, and because of the spiritual side of the guild. But they would always, always take the orphans of companions, because that would be what the orphanages were originally set up for.

I really like the idea of charity work done by the Guild, as well as the idea that the children get moved on to careers with a few very select ones joining the Guild. I can see that working really nicely.

Quote:
In the event that a companion dies with children and no one to look after them, guaranteed Guild care would be kind of a perk. There might even be some kind of day care component in there too, for the busy practicing companion mother.

This, on the other hand, seems highly unlikely. If dating is complicated for a working Companion, child bearing must be beyond complicated. I very much doubt that it is allowed. As for accidents, I would think that Companions have hella good birth control while they're employed by the Guild.

So they must only have children when they leave the Guild and take on life partners. At that point they would certainly be wealthy and savvy enough to have wills, same as any other couple with children. I just don't see that there would be a large group of orphaned Companion offspring needed an orphanage.

Quote:
But no, I don't see active recruiting of companions out of the program or coercion or brainwashing involved... Unless the child expresses an interest in joining the guild and receiving training. Otherwise, I picture them receiving a general Alliance sanctioned education until they're 12, and receiving scholarship and support to go into whatever programs at the Academy they choose. Hopefully not any of the ones involving surgery, but I get the impression that not all of the curriculum at the Academy involves violations of human rights. River and whoever her classmates were seem to have been special cases.

You've certainly got a plan. Hey, go for it! Write it up.

Quote:
Heh heh, that was one of the few times where I wasn't bringing up the Mal/Inara dynamic. :) I was just explaining how Inara isn't a snob, and why that reflects on her background. The specific example just happened to involve Mal.

Off topic again.

My point is this: you said that Inara "seems very at home in an old trampy freighter", as opposed to Simon who "is often NOT comfortable (at least at first)", and "that suggests she may have come from a different social class than Simon."

I'm saying that there is less difference between them then you are suggesting. Think about that "at least at first" part in regards to what I posted above. Can you see my point?

Quote:
I actually think Inara was very comfortable at least until the fight broke out, which is more an example of Mal's issues than it is an example of normal lower class life. Afterwards, during the fight... I don't know. Clearly she was nervous when the fight started and when they made their get-away. She didn't ACT happy then, I admit, maybe because it was getting too dangerous. But when Mal first steals the money off the slavers, I have a hard time reading her.

Have you listened to the commentary by Jane Espenson?

So - Inara didn't act happy because it was getting too dangerous? Is that the action of a woman who gets off on danger and misbehavior?

Quote:
There are rare times she approves of some of Mal's darker behaviour, like when he shoots Dobson. But other times, like when he catches the kid who picks his pocket in the Message, she just shakes her head in disapproval. There's a lot of contradiction in her, her "Robin Hood" references and what not.

In fact... Now that I think of it, do you think that may be a reflection of how Mal treats her profession? Disapproving face-to-face, but when the other is out of earshot, suddenly the other's job is "honest work" or "noble?"

Not really. First, she does let Mal know when she approves of him. Even about sleeping with Nandi. She wouldn't hide it from him if she li

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:04 PM (P)

No. Not Zoe in a dress with perfume. Guns aren't her thing, first of all, and second, unlike Zoe, who fights because it's a necessary part of her life (or so Zoe thinks), Inara would fight only for defense reasons, either herself or people she cares about. Zoe, on the other hand, picks up the fights that Mal starts, and will go on the aggressive for whatever needs doing to get the job done/win the day. In a fight with Zoe, Zoe would win; Inara would know that, and try to talk her way out of it.

Similarly, River would probably only tap into the government training she hates and is terrified of only to protect her "family," but is on an entirely different level of skill than most the people in the 'verse.

I don't think jackwabbit's fic was meant to illustrate a woman who likes violence, who likes to hit people or who is sadistic. Jackwabbit even SAID that wasn't the point. The fic is about a little girl, who gets very mad at a smug little boy, hits the little boy, and is satisfied when the little boy isn't so smug anymore. The fic goes ON to say that she's taught herself restraint, and also how to do that with WORDS. But I think now and then, like when she slapped Mal in the train job, she goes back to that little girl again.

I do think there's a more playful, mischievous side of her that we haven't seen much of. I think we see glimpses of it, but in the first season, she's still keeping that very close, still under the veneer. I think in later seasons, that would have been allowed to come out more. But that's what I mean when I say she likes being bad sometimes. It's not a dark kind of bad, like when Mal is pissed off, or a Jayne kind of bad reveling in violence. It's her not being a perfect Saint Mary. She enjoys when irony/karma/justice bites someone in the ass and they get taught a lesson, and she likes being the instrument of that irony/karma/justice. She also takes great pleasure in outfoxing someone, like when she one-ups Mal. She's okay with breaking the rules so long as it's to get at someone who deserves it, and she'll even taunt someone she's set down a few pegs.

And I think she's a little more tolerant about Mal's profession than she lets on when she's face to face with him.

Quote:
This, on the other hand, seems highly unlikely. If dating is complicated for a working Companion, child bearing must be beyond complicated. I very much doubt that it is allowed. As for accidents, I would think that Companions have hella good birth control while they're employed by the Guild.

So they must only have children when they leave the Guild and take on life partners. At that point they would certainly be wealthy and savvy enough to have wills, same as any other couple with children. I just don't see that there would be a large group of orphaned Companion offspring needed an orphanage.

And I think there's a lot of clients who could turn out to be insensitive bastards or playboys, who might be all flattery, but after having a companion in a long term contract for a while, might decide to cheat, or dismiss the companion and children that they told the companion they wanted, or divorce their retired companion wife/husband, who then wants to take up their career again... Heck, there's a LOT of things that could happen. So a companion should just drop their career, just because they had kids and someone they THOUGHT loved them turned out to be a total bitch/prick? Or what if the companion wanted to be a single parent?

As for orphans, however carefully the Guild might try to protect the companion parents, well, their careers INVITE jealousy. I suspect there isn't a single companion who hasn't been in some really scary situations. And what about unexpected accidents, or medical conditions?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Okay, I rewatched the store scene on DVD.

To me it seems, like Kaylee still is entirely genuine in defending the carving, keeps her eyes on it, doesn't ironically smile when stating she likes it or starting up with the longing, but toward the end of her explanation, I think she breaks into this grin, partly because of enthusiasm, partly because the sadly funny aspect of "longing to see a swan" catches up with her. Inara starts laughing because of Kaylee's enthusiasm.

On another level, I really like this scene because of the symbolism. Kaylee often considers herself the ugly duckling, has insecurity issues about Simon's world, longs for pretty things like that layercake dress. "Longing to see (or be) a swan" is a big aspect of her.

Yeah, I can agree with that assessment.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 11, 2009 5:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The fic goes ON to say that she's taught herself restraint, and also how to do that with WORDS.

How to vent her anger by hurting people with words? Tearing them down? Really? When does Inara do that? Once she calls Mal a petty thief, but she's instantly sorry.

Sorry, I just can't see a child who drew blood like that fic-child turning into Inara. Inara's instinct is not *ever* violence or harm. She slapped Mal to stop him from talking and blowing her plan. Sure, she saw the humor in it later, but humor was not why she did it. And back to Saffron - Inara did the barest minimum to avoid the attack. She likely had the training to do more, to stop Saffron, but she didn't even try.

Again, no one on this thread is arguing that Inara can't defend herself. (Can you please just acknowledge that we agree on this? You don't need to convince me of it. Four heaven's sake, three years ago I posted a chapter where Inara played weakling then beat the shit out of a bad guy!)

Quote:
I do think there's a more playful, mischievous side of her that we haven't seen much of.

Total agreement as to her playfulness. I haven't seen mischievous though. Where did you see that? Specific examples of Inara breaking rules just for the sake of rule breaking, or enjoying being bad purely for the sake of being bad. I still don't see it.

But here we are getting caught up in a small detail again, and missing the fact that we largely agree. Look, I'm the biggest fan of the idea of a "true" Inara who is quite different than the smooth polished Companion we see most of the time. I'm posted about that quite a lot, and I've quite explicitly written her that way in my fics.

I've also written a sort of similar background for her as to what you're suggesting: a mother who was once wealthy but married a poor man, and the family got poorer as Inara grew up. And the mother wasn't a real good mother. I even have Inara as a bit of a street urchin for a time. This is all to say: it's ok, I agree with you in most respects! I really do.

But as I try to pin down exactly far you mean to go with this "rebellious Inara" idea, I'm finding it hard. You seem to be shifting the lines on the things I don't agree with. Specifically:

"She seems very at home in an old trampy freighter, and in a low-class dive..."

And

"Lastly, sometimes I wonder if she doesn't enjoy some of the thrill and adventure of the crew's law-breaking. Like at the end of Trash, she loved that, and I also wonder if she didn't enjoy it in Shindig when Mal basically mugs the slavers."

I just don't see specific examples of this in the canon material.

Quote:
And I think there's a lot of clients who could turn out to be insensitive bastards or playboys, who might be all flattery, but after having a companion in a long term contract for a while, might decide to cheat, or dismiss the companion and children that they told the companion they wanted,

Whoa. Since when did Companions bear children for clients? I would think this very strictly verboten!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 5:37 PM (P)

We don't know much about these long term contracts, like the one Atherton brought up. Someone like him, who supposedly hasn't been able to get other women, you don't think he might be very concerned about heirs? And that there might be some contingencies the guild has to deal with that inevitability? There's two possibilities. The companion says no is the first one. In that case, the guild has to protect the companion, and they will.

The second is the companion says yes. In their business, it's not unprecedented, it's one of the jobs that Chinese concubines are hired for. And nobility (or semi-nobility, like on Persephone), you don't think they'd pay out the ear to have children with a pedigree like a companion might have? Especially if they can't get any other women who would want to have their children, or maybe have wives who can't have children despite 25th century fertility treatments? Or what about if they're in a long term contract, and they decide to get married, have children, and it falls apart afterward?

I'm not condoning it, it's actually a little disturbing to think of children being a business commodity. But I am saying courtesans bearing children for their patrons has happened historically. That makes it possible for it to happen with companions.

I recognize we agree that Inara can defend herself, but you keep saying that you think I'm saying she's violent. I'm not, and I'm trying to explain myself.

Quote:
But as I try to pin down exactly far you mean to go with this "rebellious Inara" idea, I'm finding it hard. You seem to be shifting the lines on the things I don't agree with. Specifically:

"She seems very at home in an old trampy freighter, and in a low-class dive..."

And

"Lastly, sometimes I wonder if she doesn't enjoy some of the thrill and adventure of the crew's law-breaking. Like at the end of Trash, she loved that, and I also wonder if she didn't enjoy it in Shindig when Mal basically mugs the slavers."

I just don't see specific examples of this in the canon material.

At the beginning of Shindig:

Quote:
MAL
There's a chance you may wanna head
back to the ship.

INARA
Oh, I'm all right. This is
entertaining, actually.

MAL
(amused, disbelieving)
Yeah? What's entertaining?

INARA
I like watching the game. As with
other situations, the key seems to be
giving Jayne a heavy stick and
standing back.

My impression is that she's actually enjoying being at the bar. Sure, she makes a joke about Jayne, but I don't think that lessens the fact that she's relaxing with a little strawberry daiquiri and watching a billiards game in a seedy dive.

I did not see Simon act like that when they all went to the bar in Jaynestown. Simon did not relax... Until Kaylee got him drunk. I don't think Inara is drunk, or even very buzzed in that scene.

Furthermore, my belief is that the brawls aren't a necessary consequence of life in a lower class, but rather of being in the vicinity of Mal and Jayne.

She DID love getting the drop on Saffron in Trash. Are we debating that?

Now, the rule-breaking is of course something I have less proof of, but Inara does describe Mal as a Robin Hood figure in Jaynestown. She says it in a way that indicates that she finds that aspect of him frustrating because it puts him in undue amounts of danger, but respects and admires that he does have a moral code. If she thinks of him as a Robin Hood character, then doesn't that imply that she thinks that at least some of the people he steals from deserve it, and that she approves?

And, if some of the people they steal from deserve it, could she not also approve of, or even enjoy that the crew has stolen from them and gotten away? After all, she enjoys it when she beats Saffron to the lassiter and takes it out from under her, because Saffron deserved to be double-crossed.

JACKWABBIT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:

Oh, and yes, Inara can hold her own. And deep down, she ain't as much of a "lady" as she lets on. That IS my honest opinion that ain't likely to change, unlike the mom/past angle.

Perhaps we just differ in our definition of lady, mayhaps?

Indeed. I think Inara does have all the outward appearances of being lady-like, but deep down she does enjoy getting her hands a bit dirty, so to speak. It's Trash that makes me certain of this. She looooooves her role there.

Do you associate weakness, shallowness and emotional passivity with being a lady? Basically, do you consider the term "bad" to begin with, or have a fairly narrow definition? Because to me, Inara IS a lady. Self-possessed, educated, ethical, courages, caring about others, plus all that charm and wit. She's not without flaws (bouts of denial, fear of intimacy) but that doesn't disqualify her.

I think the Saffron thing is actually an exception. Mind, this was a woman who tried to kill them all, and joyfully so, which makes the entire incident rather personal. Plus, Inara's part isn't exactly the fist-fighting, hair-pulling kind. She holds a gun, is a little smug (rightfully so, outfoxing Saffron is a thing to be proud of) and pushes a button.

Sure, there's a smidge of petty joy involved there, but we already know Inara has a sense of humor and occasionally enjoys smugness. That may not be "ladylike" in the way a strict governess might interpret, but it doesn't imply that Inara enjoys getting her hands actually dirty.

No, I don't think being a lady is a negative thing. And Inara is a lady according to all the adjectives you listed. She is the real deal in that way. I merely meant that that's not all she is. She's not JUST the pretty face and the perfect manners and the education. I do think Inara enjoyed her part in Trash and while it wasn't exactly hands-on fisticuffs, I think she relished being a bit bad, so to speak.

Put it this way. I'm a woman. I occasionally like to wear formal dresses and appreciate all the niceties that go with that. My husband opens my doors and says "ma'am" and all that. But I'm also a second degree black belt, and I love a good fist fight. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm a lady when I need to be, and not so much when I don't need to be. While I lean toward the not scale and Inara leans toward the pure lady scale, I think nearly everyone has some of both in them, and Inara is no exception.

And getting her hands dirty doesn't have to mean literally - like Bytemite mentioned, what about fencing the Lassiter?

Have to run for now (as always) but honestly it's just different interps of a character, and that's ok. ; ) I'm done here.

JACKWABBIT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't think jackwabbit's fic was meant to illustrate a woman who likes violence, who likes to hit people or who is sadistic. Jackwabbit even SAID that wasn't the point. The fic is about a little girl, who gets very mad at a smug little boy, hits the little boy, and is satisfied when the little boy isn't so smug anymore.

Exactly. Just kid stuff. And actually, I'm pretty sure that little boy said something about someone being a whore. Just sayin.

JACKWABBIT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Sorry, I just can't see a child who drew blood like that fic-child turning into Inara.

Oh, I can. I used to fight all the time, until martial arts chilled me right out. It happens. Perhaps Buddism or Zen did that for Inara.

For the record, I'm 33 and I'm talking about kid fights, not adult fights. That I've never done. I do still spar on rare occasion, though...and I do enjoy it.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:18 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:

No, I don't think being a lady is a negative thing. And Inara is a lady according to all the adjectives you listed. She is the real deal in that way. I merely meant that that's not all she is. She's not JUST the pretty face and the perfect manners and the education.

Of course, she's also courageous, ethical, caring, charming and witty.

Those adjectives seem much more important to me, aside from the education, than the parts you picked, which could easily have described Banning Miller, who I don't consider particularly ladylike, at all.

Quote:

I do think Inara enjoyed her part in Trash and while it wasn't exactly hands-on fisticuffs, I think she relished being a bit bad, so to speak.

I guess I'm more with Mal4Prez in that I think Inara relished the winning, rather than the being bad.

Quote:

Put it this way. I'm a woman. I occasionally like to wear formal dresses and appreciate all the niceties that go with that. My husband opens my doors and says "ma'am" and all that. But I'm also a second degree black belt, and I love a good fist fight. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm a lady when I need to be, and not so much when I don't need to be. While I lean toward the not scale and Inara leans toward the pure lady scale, I think nearly everyone has some of both in them, and Inara is no exception.

I figure that enjoying martial arts (I'm guessing you mean that when you say fist fights, not actual assault) is not at all different from Inara, either. It's a sport, a controlled form of exercise, not aggressive violence for the sake of being bad.

That doesn't mean you stop being a lady in those moments of practicing, right?

Quote:

And getting her hands dirty doesn't have to mean literally - like Bytemite mentioned, what about fencing the Lassiter?

Again I point to Mal4Prez here. In her earlier post she described pretty well what I see, too. An act of caring for the crew. It would get them a ton of money and it would keep them out of danger.

Quote:

Have to run for now (as always) but honestly it's just different interps of a character, and that's ok. ; ) I'm done here.

Or that. I guess we can quit here, then.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:37 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
We don't know much about these long term contracts, like the one Atherton brought up.

There's a HUGE difference between: "stay with me for 6 months to go to parties and have lots of sex," and: "stay with me to bear my children." Big big huge difference! And nothing on the series or movie or any documents suggest that the Guild goes for that second option.

But really, the biggest problem I have with your scenario is what it would say about the Guild. The Guild is all about female empowerment, about women owning their sexuality and their bodies without shame or weakness. What you're saying, this bit:

"And I think there's a lot of clients who could turn out to be insensitive bastards or playboys, who might be all flattery, but after having a companion in a long term contract for a while, might decide to cheat, or dismiss the companion and children...."

Takes all the power away from the Companion and gives it to the client. The Guild would never never NEVER allow that situation to happen.

This women are counselors and givers of pleasure. They are not wombs for hire. Allowing them to be breeders completely changes the nature of the Guild as Joss has presented it to us.

Quote:
I recognize we agree that Inara can defend herself, but you keep saying that you think I'm saying she's violent.

You say she enjoys breaking the rules for the sake of breaking the rules. Being bad just to be bad. You call her rebellious, stubborn, a spark plug. You say "She likes breaking rules. Thinks it's thrilling." This is what I disagree with.

The violence part is what I got out of the fic you called your inspiration. There is violence in that. A little girl uses violence to vent her feelings. If you're going to go with that idea, you have to explain where that violence and those bottled up feelings went, and when they don't exist in the grown woman.

Jackwabbit says she still spars. Inara doesn't.

Quote:
At the beginning of Shindig:

Of course Inara makes an effort to fit in and accept any situation. That's what she does. That's what she underwent years of training to learn how to do. She's polite and flexible. And yes, she does enjoy getting off the ship and seeing a new situation. It doesn't mean she grew up there!

So, you still haven't listened to the commentary? Here you go, from the mouth of the writer herself:

Jane Espenson (during the opening scene of Shindig): "The point of this is to show that she does not fit into his world. And the rest of the episode is him failing to fit into her world."

The costume designer also talks of Inara's red dress and pink drink against the dark setting. They don't say so explicitly, but given the context of the discussion (the above line), it's pretty clear that they put work into making Inara look very different from the setting.

It is not her world. That is the point. Says Jane.

As for the comparison with Simon: first, Inara is socially ept. Simon is not. Second, Inara has been on the ship a long time and has had time to adjust. Simon has not.

In OoG, she acted very different then she did months later, after she became accustomed to the crew. The cut from past to present shows so clearly that she has undergone quite a change during her time on Serenity. And again, I believe this was pointed out on the episode commentary. Here we go:

Tim: Now this is a great cut because of their performance. I mean, she is so *different* in this scene then she was in that previous scene... and she's so comfortable in this place."

Quote:
She DID love getting the drop on Saffron in Trash. Are we debating that?

We're debating the reason for it. She didn't love it just for the sake of breaking rules, or she'd be out dumping strange women in dumpsters just for the "thrill of being bad". She loved it because Saffron beat her before, and this was payback.

Quote:
Now, the rule-breaking is of course something I have less proof of, but Inara does describe Mal as a Robin Hood figure in Jaynestown. She says it i

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jackwabbit:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Sorry, I just can't see a child who drew blood like that fic-child turning into Inara.

Oh, I can. I used to fight all the time, until martial arts chilled me right out. It happens. Perhaps Buddism or Zen did that for Inara.

For the record, I'm 33 and I'm talking about kid fights, not adult fights. That I've never done. I do still spar on rare occasion, though...and I do enjoy it.

OK, there's a character from the series Andromeda (yes, with Mr. Hercules himself LOL!) who's a furry critter, part of a race of hive-minded, very violent killers who on some timeline (I didn't follow the series well) may have wiped out the human race. Really bad folks. Kind of Reaver-like. This character regularly practiced some kind of Zen yoga meditation to keep the violence built into his DNA at bay, and was therefore a very peaceful character.

Now, that's an extreme example, but here's why it came to mind: I posted above that you, jackwabbit, still spar, while Inara does not. When Mal barges in on her, she's never swinging an epee or kicking a dummy. She's doing calligraphy or drinking tea or something quiet like that. Does that mean that she must not have had children mix-ups like you did? No. She might be after peaceful pursuits particularly to quell the bottled up feelings that used to make her act out.

See, I want an explanation like that. The adult Inara is a peaceful creature whose first instinct is to care for people. To me, that's indisputable. She might very well have a violent past, but if so, I need that change to be accounted for. Like the furry guy from Andromeda.

But, most importantly to me and the reason I'm mixing it up with Bytemite, I don't think the present Inara should be reinterpreted to allow for any particular back story. Inara is what she is: gentle and peaceful. A caregiver, not a rebel. She can have any damned past we care to give her, but that shouldn't change what she is.

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MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:16 PM (P)

Doh! Bytemite: I have to post this, even though I hope you know me well enough that it isn't needed...

I want you to write whatever the hell you want in fanfic. Really. Anything. I will never ever come into a fic and rip it up for not being canon. I write outside canon myself LOL! But this is a thread where opinions were asked for, not a posted fanfic. And I am very opinionated!

So please don't take anything I say too seriously, or make it into fic discouragement. The most I hope for is this: your readers might experience the doubts that I'm telling you about, and if you're prepared you can write in explanations to take care of it, and they'll enjoy your fic that much more for having all angles covered.

N'est pas?

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BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:40 PM (P)

I've loaned out my firefly DVDs (Yes! Finally able to fulfill part of my duties as a newbie browncoat!) so I don't have access to the commentary. Been reviewing scenes on Hulu.

As for the Contracts and nuptials involving children, in my view the companion will always get custody. It will have to be one of the conditions for the guild to approve at all. And it'll also keep the client in question behaved. AND it has to be the companion's choice.

In regards to the Bar... I understand what Jane intended, but I disagree with her that brawling is an inevitability of people at Mal's socio-economic level. So long as Inara feels safe, I think she can, and does, fit into Mal's world. That's what I take away from that scene. It's not what Jane intended, but I think it's a more accurate interpretation.

And I'm not saying that it's ALL that she admires about Mal, I think I've talked elsewhere on what I think is the real specific attraction between them. But there is SOME admiration there for his being a noble thief. Sometimes.

Basically I think she can be both a caretaker AND a rebel. I don't think one prohibits the other. Maybe my definition of rebel includes a little bit of stretching, or maybe that was just a poor word choice. But mischievous and playful, as well as loving and nurturing, I see both of those in her.

I agreed on whether Inara is violent or not, and that she's capable of defending herself. And I also agree with you on some aspects of your imagining of her background. Which, BTW, are we going to get to see more of that? I like seeing people try to deconstruct her. :)

NCBROWNCOAT

Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:15 PM (P)

This whole Companions owning their own sexuality and female empowerment thing really hit a cord with me.

There are some women who don't feel complete without a child. If a Companion felt that way would she have to retire or would there be some mechanism?

Also, no birth control is 100 per cent, except one(maybe by the 25th century though?). What would happen if a Companion became pregnant? I'm sure options would be offered.

If she went through with the pregnancy (with compensation to the Guild for the time off) that a foster family (or nanny away from the House) or adoption would be the only options.

If Inara is the child of a Companion she was likely raised with Companionship being the ultimate goal in life, but I don't think she was forced into it. She enjoys her clients and status too much.

And Companions practice. Nandi said that there was no end to the practicing. I think that would include caligraphy, musical instruments, the tea ceremony and self defense.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:38 PM (P)

See, all I'm trying to do is come up with different scenarios and question my own assumptions, and right now I'm asking myself "how would a companion or the guild deal with various situations?"

My views of the 'verse are still very fluid, and it could be in a couple of weeks or so you'll hear me saying, no, I was wrong, that was a dumb idea.

But I do think there HAVE to be practicing companions who are mothers. I mean, isn't that part of the feminist movement, demands for maternity considerations from employers? If the guild is as liberated about women's rights as it seems like most of us think it is, then doesn't that HAVE to be a consideration?

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, July 11, 2009 11:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

But I do think there HAVE to be practicing companions who are mothers. I mean, isn't that part of the feminist movement, demands for maternity considerations from employers? If the guild is as liberated about women's rights as it seems like most of us think it is, then doesn't that HAVE to be a consideration?

I really really really REALLY agree with that. I also don't think it's that difficult to achieve. Take a year off for pregnancy and short maternity leave... why would that necessarily kill a career? Maybe have fewer clients, work with a Companion daycare or move out of the House (like Inara did) and hire a nanny. I'm sure just like relationships are merely "complicated", not expressly forbidden (how emancipated would that be, really?), having a baby would be something to work around but not at all impossible.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 12:16 AM (P)

Yes, exactly. The guild has to be very careful about it, so much that many people outside the guild have the mistaken idea that the guild doesn't allow relationships (as in a scene deleted from War Stories). The guild may have to keep married couples a secret, to protect them from jealous clients.

I might even go so far to say that it can be so complicated and sometimes guild rules so difficult to navigate that maybe a lot of companions do decide to retire to settle down. But I don't think it's impossible to be both a practicing companion and a mother/father. Or a wife/husband.

Which, just to illustrate how I can change my opinion on what I think of things in a short amount of time, is just about the opposite point of view I had when talked to GillianRose about this about a month or so ago!

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 5:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I've loaned out my firefly DVDs (Yes! Finally able to fulfill part of my duties as a newbie browncoat!) so I don't have access to the commentary.

I posted direct quotes. Wish it was all written up somewhere!

Quote:
As for the Contracts and nuptials involving children, in my view the companion will always get custody. It will have to be one of the conditions for the guild to approve at all. And it'll also keep the client in question behaved. AND it has to be the companion's choice.

OK, with the caveat that nothing in canon suggests that the Guild provides the service of "live-in moms", I do see this as something to explore in a fanfic. But I think there are pretty basic issues you need to deal with to make it work.

First, the Guild would only allow such a contract with pretty serious protections for both Companion and child. If you do as you say and give custody to the Companion, then it's suddenly a lot less attractive to the client. Your idea that men who can't find a mother to their heirs otherwise - why would they commit so much time and money to a child that can be taken from them at any time? It's a fundamental problem in the business model. How does the Guild sell this service, and why would men buy into it?

So maybe the client gets joint custody, but he must legally commit to providing support and long term care should anything happen to him and/or the Companion. So that, legally, he really is a dad, and even if he turns asshole he still has to pay alimony. But in this case there would be no need for an orphanage. The child would be provided for.

That's where I see the problem (well, other the changed nature of the Guild if they really did provide a "quality wombs for hire" service.) Your earlier posts suggested rather a bustling orphanage, so that abandoned or orphaned children are systematic. But why would it be so common if the Guild exerts it's considerable power to keep the Companion - and her child - protected and empowered?

There must be a way to make it work, but I don't see it at the moment.

And really, the wombs for hire thing really does bug me. Not because of personal disagreement with the principle, but because it doesn't fit what I know of the Guild.

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In regards to the Bar... I understand what Jane intended, but I disagree with her that brawling is an inevitability of people at Mal's socio-economic level. So long as Inara feels safe, I think she can, and does, fit into Mal's world. That's what I take away from that scene. It's not what Jane intended, but I think it's a more accurate interpretation.
LOL! Oh, you've got some gumption! To say you see the scene better than the person who actually wrote the script - with Joss's guidance. Good luck with that!

Um... so, what's this about "brawling is an inevitability of people at Mal's socio-economic level"? That has nothing to do with anything Jane said, or anything I've said. Kinda coming out of nowhere with that.

Inara doesn't fit. She doesn't fit before the fight starts, and she doesn't fit after. It's not about the fighting.

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And I'm not saying that it's ALL that she admires about Mal, I think I've talked elsewhere on what I think is the real specific attraction between them. But there is SOME admiration there for his being a noble thief. Sometimes.
I think you might be getting a bit shifty. I believe Inara admires Mal for the lengths he goes to for the sake of his crew - she admires his noble side. This is very different from what you've said, that she admires his thieving because she finds thieving a thrill.

So, which is it?

Quote:
Basically I think she can be both a caretaker AND a rebel. I don't think one prohibits the other. Maybe my definition of rebel includes a little bit of stretching, or maybe that was just a poor word choice. But mischievous and playful, as well as loving and nurturing, I see both of those in her.
Again I think you're changing from what you said before. You said she "enjoyed being

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 6:08 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But I do think there HAVE to be practicing companions who are mothers. I mean, isn't that part of the feminist movement, demands for maternity considerations from employers? If the guild is as liberated about women's rights as it seems like most of us think it is, then doesn't that HAVE to be a consideration?

I really really really REALLY agree with that. I also don't think it's that difficult to achieve. Take a year off for pregnancy and short maternity leave... why would that necessarily kill a career? Maybe have fewer clients, work with a Companion daycare or move out of the House (like Inara did) and hire a nanny. I'm sure just like relationships are merely "complicated", not expressly forbidden (how emancipated would that be, really?), having a baby would be something to work around but not at all impossible.

I agree as well - that there must be a policy for Companions to have children. (I do think this is a far cry from child-bearing as service to clients, though!)

In fact, this is an issue I've been pondering for some time for my own fic, which is likely why I'm so damned opinionated. I've got my own system quite well defined, and it's hard to make my brain stretch! I will try harder.

But I can't say any more about my theories, for fear of spoiling my fic. Hmm, maybe I ought to work on it so I can FINALLY finish posting. Really - I've been working on the same damned plot line for over 3 years. Yikes!

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BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 6:51 PM (P)

I don't really think I've shifted... If I seem to have, it's because you talking this over with me has refined more what I think, or that I've had to try to better describe what I mean.

I came in this thread with some vague ideas that I wanted to talk about and explore, and I've gotten that back in spades. :) And I have to thank everyone who's participated for that, because I think this is a good - and hopefully fun - bit of characterization to talk about.

Quote:
And really, the wombs for hire thing really does bug me. Not because of personal disagreement with the principle, but because it doesn't fit what I know of the Guild.

I do know what you mean. It's disturbing, and I've admitted that myself. Yet with the Guild, we're already getting into a bit of prickly business JUST with the hiring out sex to rich people.

The thing that I have trouble with the Guild... I see it as both a religious organization, with hierodules and worship of sexual union, powers of creation, and affirming of life and etc. But I ALSO see it as a commercial enterprise offering some important services, legally, to an upper-class. So I asked myself, what other important services might upper-class posturing as nobility require that something like the Guild might provide? And the obvious one is a huge concern about heirs, and I have serious doubts that petri-dishes would be involved, because I also see the guild as having a naturalistic side.

Like I said, the only way this could EVER happen is if the companion WANTED to have children with the client in question.

I don't know if dual custody would necessarily have to be the case for the offer to be attractive. If the person is JUST looking for heirs eligible to inherit their property, keep the family name going, they might not be interested in custody, it might be enough just to have heirs. Perhaps alimony would be paid, something to support the child through school and later establishing a living, but I think the guild would be taking on too much risk if children went to live with their client parent in the event of a companion's death. That seems like something that could set up abuse, and the guild would be interested in protecting the children of it's companions. Maybe the client could visit the children, but they would remain wards of the guild, and continue to stay in a guild orphanage/daycare. That is, if the other parent wanted contact at all.

Quote:
LOL! Oh, you've got some gumption! To say you see the scene better than the person who actually wrote the script - with Joss's guidance. Good luck with that!

Um... so, what's this about "brawling is an inevitability of people at Mal's socio-economic level"? That has nothing to do with anything Jane said, or anything I've said. Kinda coming out of nowhere with that.

Inara doesn't fit. She doesn't fit before the fight starts, and she doesn't fit after. It's not about the fighting.

I know... That sounded really arrogant, and I was wincing as I wrote it. But though I like the scene and how it was directed, I just don't like that INTERPRETATION of that scene. I don't think that interpretation is true to real life.

When I see that scene.... Yes, Inara stands out. She's beautiful, wearing her red two piece with the skirt, and she had that almost matching drink. She's classy, she's elegant, and her surroundings are... not.

But she would stand out ANYWHERE I think, really. So what I focus on, before the fight, is how relaxed she is. To me, she feels confident. At home, almost. Certainly more so than she was on Atherton's arm, smiling fake greetings at all the other people attending the party, and being quietly horrified by his creepy flirtation.

So until the fight starts in the bar, I do see her as fitting in. She wouldn't be the first pretty woman to go to a bar. It's not like people are staring at her (though maybe they did at first, see previous paragraph). It's not like, after she's there, that she is so out of place that it seems wrong for her to be there.

When the brawl starts, that's when s

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I do know what you mean. It's disturbing, and I've admitted that myself. Yet with the Guild, we're already getting into a bit of prickly business JUST with the hiring out sex to rich people.

Read again what I wrote - I pointedly said that my own opinion of right/wrong is NOT the basis of my doubts. It's a matter of story-telling. I believe the "womb for hire" scenario doesn't fit the Guild. It would be an inconsistent characterization of the organization.

As for providing heirs as a service - even today people can go buy eggs and sperm with a full medical history of the donors. In 500 years any wealthy man will be able to purchase a fully DNA mapped egg, or possibly even an embryo with a women to carry it to term for him, and that would cheaper and simpler and more dependable than hiring a Companion.

And perhaps baby-making is a side business of the Guild, but I see absolutely no reason why they'd combine this with Companion services. It's just not good business. It puts them in a very difficult position as far as protecting their Companions and also protecting themselves, legally.

Again, it's also far outside anything we've seen of the organization in canon material.

Quote:
Like I said, the only way this could EVER happen is if the companion WANTED to have children with the client in question.

Of course. That goes without saying. But that doesn't remove all the other complications. As much as Companions are "empowered" and "free", their behavior is also quite limited in some ways. Someone posted a contract of Inara's that had all kinds of limits on working Companions. It's not like a Companion says: "But I want to do THIS!" and they are automatically allowed.

Quote:
I don't know if dual custody would necessarily have to be the case for the offer to be attractive. If the person is JUST looking for heirs eligible to inherit their property, keep the family name going, they might not be interested in custody, it might be enough just to have heirs.

You think there's a steady market of men willing to spend lots of money just to know they have a baby out there somewhere? They can achieve that pretty cheaply and with much less fuss at a local bar...

Quote:
Perhaps alimony would be paid, something to support the child through school and later establishing a living, but I think the guild would be taking on too much risk if children went to live with their client parent in the event of a companion's death. That seems like something that could set up abuse, and the guild would be interested in protecting the children of it's companions.

The Guild would trust the client to impregnate a Companion and form the long-time bond of parentage with her, but don't trust leaving a child alone with him? Such a Guild would be incredibly irresponsible.

Quote:
I know... That sounded really arrogant, and I was wincing as I wrote it. But though I like the scene and how it was directed, I just don't like that INTERPRETATION of that scene.

Jane didn't direct it, she wrote it. The interpretation in the commentary is her own, of her writing. She openly states that the scene has a point, and she says what the point is.

By all means, continue to see it your way, but you ought to be aware that it wasn't the way it was written!

Quote:
But she would stand out ANYWHERE I think, really.

Yes she would, and she would take steps to be comfortable, to mix socially, etc., in any environment whether trashy or high-class. Because that is what she does. She is a trained socialite. Which makes it all the more evident that there's no reason to come out of the Shindig scene saying: she MUST have been born and raised in that environment because she looks so relaxed in it!

That was your original point. It still makes no sense to me!

Quote:
I think I may have to reread what I said. ^_^' I think what's happening here, though, is a misunderstanding about what I mean when I say I think Inara likes being "bad" sometimes and what I mean by Inara'

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:54 PM (P)

You're probably right about the guild and legal issues and children/heirs with clients. It's just a what-if I'm toying with.

I think, if this were something that happens, that the draw for a client to get a companion would be, like I said, the pedigree, and the... Hands on experience.

Quote:
Yes she would, and she would take steps to be comfortable, to mix socially, etc., in any environment whether trashy or high-class. Because that is what she does. She is a trained socialite. Which makes it all the more evident that there's no reason to come out of the Shindig scene saying: she MUST have been born and raised in that environment because she looks so relaxed in it!

That was your original point. It still makes no sense to me!

But you were saying how she doesn't fit in, and pointed out how she was deliberately dressed to draw the eye and be the only colour in the scene.

I kind of think maybe she did that on purpose. :) >_> I mean, just how often does Mal invite Inara along with him on an outing like that? It clearly wasn't business. It wasn't a DATE, no, neither of them would go for that, at that point, but there's kind of an ambiguity there.

I suppose I'm making an assumption, that if she did not at least have some experience in a bar like that, that she would be uncomfortable, even before the fight broke out. The patronage was kind of rough looking. But to me she seemed comfortable, and non-judgmental of the other people there. And it's the part where she's non-judgmental that makes me think maybe there's more there than just some brushing with that culture. Criminals and ruffians and "untouchables" so to speak are usually only understood and tolerated by people near them on the socio-economic scale.

Quote:
What I'm debating is when you said she might "enjoy some of the thrill and adventure of the crew's law-breaking", and "She likes breaking rules. Thinks it's thrilling."

I still haven't heard of any example when Inara enjoyed breaking rules just for the sake of breaking rules.

What about if she ever got involved with Mal? >_> <_<

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
But you were saying how she doesn't fit in, and pointed out how she was deliberately dressed to draw the eye and be the only colour in the scene.

The fact that she's socially capable and open to new situations doesn't mean she has personal experience in them, or that she fits. She simply does not fit in that bar. No way anyone said: "Oh her? Yeah. She might have been in here last week, not sure. She's just like all the rest of these women."

Quote:
I kind of think maybe she did that on purpose.

I think she's just being herself. That's how she dresses. That's what she drinks. She could make the attempt of dressing down and drinking rotgut just so she'd blend, but then she wouldn't be herself, and then she'd be uncomfortable.

Quote:
I mean, just how often does Mal invite Inara along with him on an outing like that? It clearly wasn't business. It wasn't a DATE, no, neither of them would go for that, at that point, but there's kind of an ambiguity there.

Hmm... interesting point. I doubt it was a date, given the state of their relationship, but one does wonder how she happened to go along... Probably just bored. Or maybe Mal thought having her there would impress the contact.

Quote:
I suppose I'm making an assumption, that if she did not at least have some experience in a bar like that, that she would be uncomfortable, even before the fight broke out. The patronage was kind of rough looking. But to me she seemed comfortable, and non-judgmental of the other people there.

I think that's just her nature. Doesn't matter if she has personal experience with any class of people or type of establishment, she's one of those rare people who will look for what's common and what's positive, rather than standing in a place of judgment. I think that's part of her role as care-taker and mother figure. She's incredibly accepting, and not just across social lines.

She is trained to make a wide variety of people comfortable around her. That would not be possible if she wasn't damned good at being comfortable with herself, no matter her situation.

Quote:
What about if she ever got involved with Mal? >_> <_<

She would do that because she's drawn to him for him, and not because: "Hey, here's a bad guy I can get with just to piss off dad!" You know?

I feel like I'm having a hard expressing this, but there's a difference between being open to breaking the rules when you have a good reason to do it, and breaking the rules for no reason other than breaking the rules. I think Inara is the first. You have stated the second. If that's not what you meant, just say so!

As to the child-bearing: I was just out running errands thinking about it, and I got it to work for me. Woo-hoo! I'll write up another post with my theories.

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MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:42 PM (P)

OK: what made it work was the idea of child-bearing being a separate part of the Guild. I see a whole different branch where women join later in life (btw I really want the Guild to have males in all roles as well as females, but I'm going to ignore that option for now) Like maybe women can't join this branch until they're 18, because they're committing to something long-term and pretty challenging, emotionally speaking. They have a few years training--a very different kind of training than regular Companions, but let me get back to that later.

So, a client comes in wanting a child, one who's of good "stock", well-educated, and socially skilled. Ready to take over the family business or follow Daddy into Parliament. (No reason the client can't be a woman, but for simplicity I'll go with a male.) This branch of the Guild takes a looong time matching the client with one of these... um... Compani-Nannies. CN's. It's not as simple as what Inara does - there is a pretty intense period of making sure the parties get along. Maybe a trial live-in period and time with psychological evaluators.

Then the CN gets pregnant. There's different options in the contract, there could be sex involved, it could be test tube. Whatever the client chooses and the CN accepts. But this young woman is not trained to be a sex goddess who's good at parties. She's trained to handle pregnancy, to nurse a baby, to educate him/her. She's a surrogate/wet-nurse/nanny/governess all in one. Her life for the term of the contract is all about this child, about giving him/her all the skills the client wants in his offspring.

The "term of contract" is, say, 12 years. Or whatever. When the child turns some contracted age the CN has completed her responsibilities, is paid richly, and can choose to contract again or to pursue her own way. And she'd probably do pretty well, considering she's in her mid 30s, has a lot of cash, some very useful skills, and probably quite a few contacts from her time with the client and his child.

I intentionally say "his" child, because I think it would work best--practically and dramatically--if the client was the primary custodian of the child. He can end the contract at any time and raise the child on his own, though he would have to pay the CN for the full term of contract. But, to be a bit crass, the child is what the client bought. He owns it. The services of the CN he can end at any time. (Remember - it's not about whether I like this in principle. I don't. But I think it works as a story.)

Of course, there would be ways that the CN can protect the child if the man was a monster, but that's no different than any other parent/child situation. We trust that a parent is ok until we have evidence otherwise, then we take action. And the regular law would cover this. I don't think this issue needs further pursuing.

Where was I? Oh - At the end of the term of contract, the CN can stay on if all parties want that, though new terms and payment would need to be negotiated. More likely, they part with fond wishes, stay in touch in the future, but the CN goes on with her life separately. She has no legal rights to the child or the client. Just like a governess.

What I like about this is that it does make sense practically--the client, the CN, the child, and the Guild all benefit from the transaction. More importantly, it makes sense dramatically. It appeals to my story-telling sense. The role of the CN would be very similar to that of the Companion. While with clients, Companions can seem to have this amazing, deep connection. They and their client are lovers. But, no matter how Inara protests that what she does is deep and meaningful, it is at heart a business transaction. The time runs out, the client goes his way, and Inara goes to her next client.

The CN would have that same strange dichotomy. She seems part of the family, a mother. But there is always the understanding that when the time ends and the clock dings, so to speak, she will move on. She is part of the family, but not really. Just like Inara is a

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:01 PM (P)

Mal? Having a business meeting with slavers? No, I don't think that was business, but Mal, Jayne and Inara unwinding. I also don't think Mal would have stolen from them if it was business, even if they were slavers. The slavers just happened to come along and they decided to play some pool together before Mal knew who they were. That's what I think.

Quote:
I think that's just her nature. Doesn't matter if she has personal experience with any class of people or type of establishment, she's one of those rare people who will look for what's common and what's positive, rather than standing in a place of judgment. I think that's part of her role as care-taker and mother figure. She's incredibly accepting, and not just across social lines.

She is trained to make a wide variety of people comfortable around her. That would not be possible if she wasn't damned good at being comfortable with herself, no matter her situation.

...Yeah, okay.

So, wait, how come you like her as being from lower classes as opposed to upper classes? :D I'd love to hear that, maybe you have a better reason than I do! Or is that something you just wanted to explore?

I mean, I saw how you said you wanted that to explain why she runs to Serenity, just wondering if you could elaborate, and whether there was something in canon that got your wheels turning in that direction.

Quote:
She would do that because she's drawn to him for him, and not because: "Hey, here's a bad guy I can get with just to piss off dad!" You know?

I feel like I'm having a hard expressing this, but there's a difference between being open to breaking the rules when you have a good reason to do it, and breaking the rules for no reason other than breaking the rules. I think Inara is the first. You have stated the second. If that's not what you meant, just say so!

No, that's not why Inara being with Mal would be breaking the rules. I think her being with Mal would be breaking the rules because of 1) perceived social status, whatever Inara may have started out as, 2) the unspoken rules Mal and Inara have established between them, and 3) the guild wouldn't approve of the relationship. I don't know what the consequences of reason number three would be, but I think that they would be something that Inara would have to think very carefully about.

She wouldn't be with him JUST to break the rules, but being with him WOULD be breaking the rules. That's the difference.

So no, I don't think she's bad JUST to break the rules... I don't THINK I said that, but maybe I was being unclear somewhere, or gave the wrong impression. But when she does break the rules, it is for good reason, and would be thrilling.

Most rebels have a reason. The ones who don't are either teenagers or a joke.

But I also think... She likes breaking rules. Thinks it's thrilling.

I suppose this debate came from that? Ooh. I was being kind of general and non-specific then, referring to her Saffron double cross. But no, though I said she likes breaking rules, I didn't mean to imply that when she breaks rules, she doesn't have reason to... Or that I don't think there's case by case considerations.

As a Buddhist, killing is breaking the rules. She doesn't like killing.

AGENTROUKA

Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:12 PM (P)

I dunno.

This Companion-Nanny scenario seems to entirely disregard the emotional impact and risks on the young woman in question. It's an entirely different committment than short term sexual/emotional bonding, wetnursing, being a nanny or surrogate mother.

And it's certainly a long-term committment that a person as young as 18 could barely make a reasonable judgment about. It's apparently not something she can just get out of when it turns out not to be for her.

Custody battles would be the most likely outcome, and I think the Guild would be smart enough to even try and invite that sort of heartbreak.

I also find the whole idea of "ordering an heir" pretty silly. The fewest people would want to have a child and then not be the ones to raise it. It's too volatile to hand the family fortune to practical stranger. If they want the kid to have a great education and pretty genes, there are easier ways to go about it, with fewer risks attached and less financial burden.

AGENTROUKA

Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So no, I don't think she's bad JUST to break the rules... I don't THINK I said that, but maybe I was being unclear somewhere, or gave the wrong impression. But when she does break the rules, it is for good reason, and would be thrilling.

I guess it's this assumption that it would be thrilling that I have the biggest problem with.

I think it's actually the opposite for her. Breaking the rules is generally undesirable for her, but sometimes excusable for good reasons. Some rules won't pain her to break, but I definitely do not see any instance where it would give her actual pleasure to do so, in and of itself. I see it only in the results when it is done for a just cause.

If being with Mal would cause her to break any rules outside of their own, it would actually be a cause of displeasure and stress for her. Inara hates complications, after all.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:34 PM (P)

Isn't that what rich people do already though? Most of them don't care for their children, they hire someone else to do it.

And the guild would have to approve any sort of long-term client contract with children, after the Companion expressed wanting to add that into the contract. If the companion was too young or had shown bad decision making tendencies in the past, the guild would deny the application.

AGENTROUKA

Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Isn't that what rich people do already though? Most of them don't care for their children, they hire someone else to do it.

Is this going to go into the rich people are all evil and bad parents vein? :( Because that's a generalization I cannot support. I guess hiring a nanny or sending kids off to boarding school is more prevalant among those who can afford it, but neglect happens in all economic spheres, and it's still a different animal to the scenario Mal4Prez proposed. I say the majority of rich people still want to have children for the sake of having children, however it is that they intend to be parents.

And why would the Guild want to support something that promises more harm than good - especially to the resulting child, if your opinion of non-hands-on parenting is apparently low?

Quote:

And the guild would have to approve any sort of long-term client contract with children, after the Companion expressed wanting to add that into the contract. If the companion was too young or had shown bad decision making tendencies in the past, the guild would deny the application.

My reply was specifically to Mal4Prez's scenario with an entire different Companion branch set up. That's the thing I especially disagree with because I don't see it as remotely related to the Guild's business, and as an inefficient to downright unethical idea.

I can maybe imagine very very rare individual contracts, the way a "Personal Companion" contract might work but with further arrangements specifically set up between the Companion and Client in question.

But I can not imagine something actually institutionalized or more common than extremely rare. I mean, seriously, why would a Companion even want that? If they wanted to work with children, they would have gone into a childcare profession, right? If their genes are the thing most sought after, a donation of eggs would be easier. And the interruption and physical burdens of pregnancy would probably be a lot less tolerable for a Companion when it's not done for herself and for love. It's like a ballerina being a surrogate mother - highly unlikely. Why study to be a Companion and then become breeding stock and nanny?

So whether a separate branch would be set up or whether regular Companions supposedly would do this.. I find both scenarios extremely unlikely.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mal? Having a business meeting with slavers? No, I don't think that was business, but Mal, Jayne and Inara unwinding. I also don't think Mal would have stolen from them if it was business, even if they were slavers. The slavers just happened to come along and they decided to play some pool together before Mal knew who they were. That's what I think.

Good point. I guess I just always assume that when they're out at a bar it's for business, since it usually is.

Quote:
So, wait, how come you like her as being from lower classes as opposed to upper classes? :D I'd love to hear that, maybe you have a better reason than I do! Or is that something you just wanted to explore?

Let's see, it's been a long time since I worked out my plot for Inara...

Primarily, I wanted to explain why she chose Serenity. It's been made clear that she's running from some pretty awful events, (though, in the OoG commentary, Tim says that she's either running from something or to something... to something? Interesting...) She must have been badly hurt and needed to go somewhere safe. In OoG, when talking to Simon, Inara says: "I love this ship. I have since the first moment I saw it." Why? Why would a wealthy, pampered woman love such a junker? Why would she think a dirty smuggling ship a safe place to go and heal?

So I thought she must have had personal experience with a Firefly, something very positive. It seemed unlikely that a wealthy young girl would have ever been on such a ship, or would have loved it at first sight. So it was easy for me to consider her as much poorer once.

I think family is also a big part of Inara's secret. In Bushwhacked, Wash says the wreck had several families on it, and Inara repeats: "families?" in a shocked, pained way. In OMR, when Mal starts talking about passels of children, she suddenly gets all defensive. And in HoG, when rejecting Mal's overture, she talks about loving, family-like relationships as if they're a trap she can't let herself get into.

This all fit together for me when I made her birth family a trap, and her foster family on the Firefly an escape. As a grown woman who just went through something awful, she would jump at the chance for the same kind of escape.

It wasn't about class issues for me. It was more about her history with family, and her draw to Serenity.

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She wouldn't be with him JUST to break the rules, but being with him WOULD be breaking the rules. That's the difference.

Breaking the rules is secondary. See - we agree!

And look at what this says about what motivates Inara: rule-breaking, or other things? The other things come first. The fact that rule-breaking doesn't stop her says a lot, but it is not her motivation. She's not a rebel as much as a free spirit.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:07 PM (P)

AR: Non-hands on parenting isn't bad. I have intimacy issues; I may not have had a nanny, but that was pretty much the kind of parenting I got that I was comfortable with.

I was making a statement. I guess I don't see what's so different between hiring a companion to be the mother of your children and hiring a surrogate mother or a nanny or other caretaker.

It's strange. I see it as a very likely thing that a companion might be hired for... Unless the Guild has rules against it.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:12 PM (P)

Mal4Prez: I can get behind that.

Ooh! Yeah, that makes sense now. For some reason, when I read about your version of Inara and her foster family, for some reason I didn't see the connection between Inara and Serenity.

Funny how she doesn't act like she likes it in the OOG flashback, but I take her word for it when she says she did. :)

AGENTROUKA

Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
AR: Non-hands on parenting isn't bad. I have intimacy issues; I may not have had a nanny, but that was pretty much the kind of parenting I got that I was comfortable with.

I was making a statement. I guess I don't see what's so different between hiring a companion to be the mother of your children and hiring a nanny or other caretaker.

It's strange. I see it as a very likely thing that a companion might be hired for... Unless the Guild has rules against it.

But why would a Companion agree to this, when what she trained for is rather different? Why would it be likely?

And why not hire a nanny, then? A well-educated nanny, well-educated teachers, send the kid to Companion school when it's twelve.. why the complication of a Companion "mother"? For the genes? I'm sure there would be systems of egg donation and surrogate mothers set up that would cause a lot less legal trouble, not to mention emotional trouble.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:31 PM (P)

AR -

I should say that I don't think my scenario is anything canon, but something that could be presented in an at least slightly believable way in fanfic.

And I find it not completely preposterous. Perhaps because I don't believe in the nuclear family as the only or even the best way. I'm also harkening back to the way of old European nobility: they brought in a governess to raise and educate the children. For the governess, it's her ticket out of obscurity. She raises someone else's kids then has the means to marry or perhaps to live independently.

And I don't see it as inherently evil ont eh part of the wealthy parents. I think that, like the Companion/client relationship, this Nanny/client relationship could in general be a friendly, positive thing, where the forged relationships lasts throughout their lives. Only a few would go wrong, and they would be dealt with as Inara dealt with Ath. Sucks for the kids, but do you really believe that the nuclear family is a full guarantee that the kid will never get hurt? Odds are the same any way, I say.

Besides - the Guild is not perfect. Inara gets hurt while doing her job. It's a business that means well, but it's still a business. Shit happens, no matter where you go.

Again though, I tend to see the man/woman/child family model as one that's sure to get out-dated. I see no reason why this set-up "promises more harm than good", anymore than wealthy Victorian children were scarred by being raised by their governess. That was how it was done, and that's how they did it.

So you can get hung up on families being exactly what our current society defines them to be, but in 500 years that might not be the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
My reply was specifically to Mal4Prez's scenario with an entire different Companion branch set up. That's the thing I especially disagree with because I don't see it as remotely related to the Guild's business, and as an inefficient to downright unethical idea.

Many people in our present call Inara's business unethical. The Guild sees things differently. Who's to say they wouldn't change more than sex?

Hey, I have no interest in being part of the Nanny thing, but I would find it horrifying to have Inara's job too. The Guild is the one setting this up, not me. And the Guild redraws lines.

The funny thing is, I'm bothered more by the idea of a Companion crossing the line to Nanny. They are such completely different jobs.

Quote:
But I can not imagine something actually institutionalized or more common than extremely rare. I mean, seriously, why would a Companion even want that?

Guess what - it's already real, it's already done. Women and men contribute eggs and sperm. There are websites where you can search out donors based on all kinds of personal attributes, then you can read letters from them about why they are donors and how involved they want to be in their child's life. Seriously - I've seen it.

There are also surrogate mothers, adoption services. This stuff is real.

As for the Nanny--hey, I don't even like egg donation because it really messes with the donor's body, which is never part of the advertising. Adoption can cause serious emotional problems for the birth mother, again something that is usually not spoken of.

Come to think of it, all of this is similar to prostitution, in that in current times it's unregulated and bad things can come of it. Perhaps if it's regulated it wouldn't be so harmful. The Guild regulated whoring and made it something respectful and positive. You really think they couldn't do the same with childbirth?

Quote:
Why study to be a Companion and then become breeding stock and nanny?

Exactly why it has to be a very separate thing from canon Companioning. A different kind of woman signs up to be a Nanny, the training is different, the career path is different. I knew women is high school who wanted nothing more than to have babies, and had no real other skills to build a career on. Would you tell them that Nannying is a horrible

AGENTROUKA

Monday, July 13, 2009 6:34 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
AR -

I should say that I don't think my scenario is anything canon, but something that could be presented in an at least slightly believable way in fanfic.

Not believable to me, but I guess that's what fanfic is for?

I didn't think you considered this canonical fact, and I'm only arguing against it in terms of what seems illogical to me. :)

Quote:

And I find it not completely preposterous. Perhaps because I don't believe in the nuclear family as the only or even the best way.

Do you realize that you are making a big assumption about this playing a role in my thoughts?

Quote:

I'm also harkening back to the way of old European nobility: they brought in a governess to raise and educate the children. For the governess, it's her ticket out of obscurity. She raises someone else's kids then has the means to marry or perhaps to live independently.

Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.

Quote:

And I don't see it as inherently evil ont eh part of the wealthy parents. I think that, like the Companion/client relationship, this Nanny/client relationship could in general be a friendly, positive thing, where the forged relationships lasts throughout their lives. Only a few would go wrong, and they would be dealt with as Inara dealt with Ath.

But this wouldn't be just a nanny. This would be the biological mother of the child who basically raises it and is then expected to just hand it over. Whether relations might still be good afterwards, is a maybe, and it is entirely different from a governess with no such ambiguious ties to the child. My concern here is in the inevitably developing emotional ties, feelings of entitlement, regret, disputes in parental philosophies and the bazillion other sources of conflict. I don't see a few cases going wrong. I see most of them fraught with pain for the Companion involved, the child involved, the father involved...

Quote:

Sucks for the kids, but do you really believe that the nuclear family is a full guarantee that the kid will never get hurt? Odds are the same any way, I say.

Where did I ever mention the nucliear family or what would be better for the child? Where do you even get this from?

I'm not arguing about this in terms of family models. I'm arguing about inefficiency, lack of consideration for obvious factors and unethical pressure on the young women in question.

Quote:

Besides - the Guild is not perfect. Inara gets hurt while doing her job. It's a business that means well, but it's still a business. Shit happens, no matter where you go.

When does Inara get hurt doing her job? I see a vague potetial for it when people like Wing pass muster but end up aggressive, but we know very little about what the Guild is capable of doing in cases of actual attacks. Besides, those would indeed be rare incidents, whereas in a 12-year-committment motherhood rental relationship, there is hardly a question of "hurt" not arising, with no quick and flexible solutions.

Quote:

Again though, I tend to see the man/woman/child family model as one that's sure to get out-dated.

And again I wonder why you think this has anything to do with my argument.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
My reply was specifically to Mal4Prez's scenario with an entire different Companion branch set up. That's the thing I especially disagree with because I don't see it as remotely related to the Guild's business, and as an inefficient to downright unethical idea.

Many people in our present call Inara's business unethical. The Guild sees things differently. Who's to say they wouldn't change more than sex?

And I'm not many people in our present.

There's an exploitative quality to essentially raising young women who cannot truly make that judgment toward a very long-term committment that in

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 13, 2009 1:00 PM (P)

AR -

Re the nuclear family, all I saw in your reply to me was that you assumed "more harm than good" without saying specifically why, so that's what I went with. I'm glad that wasn't your argument!

As for the attachment the biological mother forms: this is exactly what I find dramatically interesting, and this is where I find the similarity to Inara.

Inara is hurt by the client in the pilot episode. They have this nice sex and this nice talk and seem to be connected and intimate - emotionally I mean - but then he was that thing about rigging the clock. What an insult! So much for connection. Then the female client in War Stories - they have this nice talk about how we're connecting in a way men can't, and isn't this special, then (in a cut scene, but I find it important) Inara goes to the client's house to try and get help for Mal, the client doesn't even want to let Inara in.

Inara gives more than her body to these clients, she really puts herself into it and tries to make it a "bond". The only thing she's guaranteed to get in return is payment. Sometimes she gets more, sometimes she gets a little slap in the face. Companions have to be trained to be emotionally prepared for that.

So there - I think the Guild is already pretty heartless in expecting young girls to commit to this kind of life. I don't see it as a much bigger step to let them be surrogate moms. Again, surrogate moms happen already, as well as adoptions. And this happens with woman who have no idea of the terrible grief of separation awaiting them. At least in my version of Nannying, they can be fully prepared for what's to come.

I think this much kinder than allowing it to continue to happen as it does today. The surrogate mother is given power, preparation, and support.

And - please note that I specifically ruled out girls making such a choice at the age of 12. I also said there would be training and psychologists involved.

It's not like any girl off the street can walk in looking to make a buck. That situation would be exactly what the Guild is trying to avoid!

Quote:
Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.

I never said it was. It would be a small group who wanted to do this and a smaller group who were deemed emotionally and physically capable of it.

Quote:
Quote:
Many people in our present call Inara's business unethical. The Guild sees things differently. Who's to say they wouldn't change more than sex?

And I'm not many people in our present.

There's an exploitative quality to essentially raising young women who cannot truly make that judgment toward a very long-term committment that involves not just their minds and bodies but indeed their entire emotional household.

And how is this so very different from Inara's job? Sure as hell that's exploitive. It doesn't mean to be, and it tries to prevent Companions from being hurt, but it happens.

I set the age to start this training at 18. Young woman can get married and have babies at 18 today. (Even younger really.) They can choose to give their baby up for adoption at that age or younger. It would be a lovely world where we can protect everyone from bad decisions, but we can't. What we can do, what an organization like the Guild can do, is provide the support and training to make sure the girl knows what she's getting into and has the best chance of success.

Quote:
I think it is unethical to have so many sources of pain and conflict on your plate and disregard it for monetary gain.

Exactly true of Inara's job, isn't it? Oh - but Inara's out to make clients happy, not to make money. So why does she charge?

Quote:
And I do not see the Guild as short-sighted, uncompassionate or "just a business". I don't see them institutionalizing this and I don't see their interest in this field.

I don't either, but I'm going with Bytemite's idea of "what if?" What if the Guild did have other projects? What would be their approach and motivation?

Quote:
Quote:

Th

BYTEMITE

Monday, July 13, 2009 2:36 PM (P)

The Guild as a group that deals with human rights and exploitation in a number of different settings... By helping make it safe (hopefully) to practice potentially exploitive work.

I mean, my "what if" scenario was a narrow one... but an expanded version, operating as the guild's creed... Disturbing AND intriguing. Much like the whole idea of Companions.

It's always kind of weird to me how Companions are seen as empowered. The Guild has made things safe enough for them that they can feel self-confident, yes, and they can use sex and desire in positive ways... But in the end, aren't they being reduced to sex/desire objects by their profession?

We don't consider prostitutes in our world empowered, no matter how caring, protective, and respecting of their wishes that their pimps might be. What makes the Guild different? All I see is the current system we have, subtract out the hitting and unwillingness, and add in spiritual and psychological conditioning to convince the companions that they're doing something good that should make them feel good.

Ha. I just kind of go back and forth on this. The Guild: do I admire the near religious respect of sex and feminine power? Or do I think it's a justification and delusion?

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 13, 2009 2:46 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ha. I just kind of go back and forth on this. The Guild: do I admire the near religious respect of sex and feminine power? Or do I think it's a justification and delusion?

I hear you. All I can conclude is that it's all kinds of shades of grey, and will work for some but not for others.

I think the Guild knows this too, and tries very hard to preserve choice and personal freedom for everyone involved. That's it's saving grace to me.

Why am I still posting? Damn! Things to do!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

AGENTROUKA

Monday, July 13, 2009 6:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Inara is hurt by the client in the pilot episode. They have this nice sex and this nice talk and seem to be connected and intimate - emotionally I mean - but then he was that thing about rigging the clock. What an insult! So much for connection. Then the female client in War Stories - they have this nice talk about how we're connecting in a way men can't, and isn't this special, then (in a cut scene, but I find it important) Inara goes to the client's house to try and get help for Mal, the client doesn't even want to let Inara in.

You're ignoring here, as many people very often do, that Persephone is not the Core. It's not Inara's "natural habitat" and her clients are less familiar with Companions, more prone to old-fashioned judgment, even if they want to get with the Core fashions. The Councillor, also didn't really hurt Inara's feelings with regard to connecting. She was married and trying to keep her affair secret.

Even so, small slights from ignorant people are hardly comparable to the heartbreak potential of being a biological mother for hire with a built-in nanny contract.

Quote:

So there - I think the Guild is already pretty heartless in expecting young girls to commit to this kind of life. I don't see it as a much bigger step to let them be surrogate moms.

I see it as a huge step. If a young woman finds that Companion life is not for her, she can stop RIGHT then. Try that with your proposed scenario.

Quote:

Again, surrogate moms happen already, as well as adoptions. And this happens with woman who have no idea of the terrible grief of separation awaiting them. At least in my version of Nannying, they can be fully prepared for what's to come.

But then why not a counselling service for women thinking about surrogacy? Why this whole 12-year Nanny business attached?

Quote:

I think this much kinder than allowing it to continue to happen as it does today. The surrogate mother is given power, preparation, and support.

Except she's also expected to contract for over a decade. There is only so much you can prepare - especially at the young age you proposed - and you allow for very little flexibility after the event.

Besides. Just because the Guild would offer this service wouldn't make any other surrogacy or adoption service go away. It's like with Companions, a parallel option, not a replacement of a bad system. Unless the Guild is willing to enforce a monopoly all over the central planets, they do not prevent anyone's suffering, really.

Quote:

It's not like any girl off the street can walk in looking to make a buck. That situation would be exactly what the Guild is trying to avoid!

So why get young girls and train them up at all? Why not offer a councelling service about all these things instead of a rigid program? THAT would be more helpful.

Quote:

Quote:
Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.
I never said it was. It would be a small group who wanted to do this and a smaller group who were deemed emotionally and physically capable of it.

And how would such a small number justify opening an entire second branch of Companion schooling?

Quote:

And how is this so very different from Inara's job? Sure as hell that's exploitive. It doesn't mean to be, and it tries to prevent Companions from being hurt, but it happens.

I don't consider Inara's job exploitative. She chooses it every day, could get out whenever she wants. She works with her body and mind, and it's - to me - no more exploitative than washing dishes in a restaurant, possibly less so because Inara receives ample compensation.

The key, for me, is in the length and flexibility of the committment. That's where the potential for grievous harm is.

Inara is obviously up to the small slights that she receives while travelling outside her usual cultural norm, and if she

BYTEMITE

Monday, July 13, 2009 6:50 PM (P)

I'm not sure if I could make another proposition to amend this, since my last one has seemed to be so controversial, but I think the way I see it would be that this is an option for women who are more mature. 30s or 40s, and actively interested in having children. Who have enough experience and wisdom to govern whether they want to enter into a long term contract with any children related side-conditions. And who, hopefully, have contracted with the client in question for a number of years.

I actually imagine Companions as having to take classes on childhood psychology, because surely some of their clients might have children that they might interact with? What if the Companion were to join a family outing in the course of an assignation with a client? I think a client would be very displeased with a Companion that upset their children. And I imagine that a Companion who wants children might be offered some very useful pregnancy and childcare educational programs, courtesy of the Guild, should the Guild approve their request.

Going back to the daycare/orphanage idea I had, maybe trainee Companions spend at least some of their time in between classes helping with extra-curricular-but-still-guild-related activities, such as tending children, in addition to classes they might take on the subject?

And I'm back to the church comparisons again, but in a convent/abbey, the acolytes and novices, between their lessons, contribute a little bit to the day-to-day running of the facilities. Whether cooking, or cleaning, or maybe tending younger children when their caretakers are busy. It's often a good form of teaching patience and discipline.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 13, 2009 9:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
You're ignoring here, as many people very often do, that Persephone is not the Core.

Inara has clearly known Ath for a long time.

I understand that Inara is out of her habitat, but the treatment from her clients is never presented as something unusual. She never makes any statement about how it's different in the Core. I think the writers have taken care to show that her clients sometimes show a degree of callousness toward her. It's the strange thing about her job, this combination of intimacy and distance.

Quote:
I see it as a huge step. If a young woman finds that Companion life is not for her, she can stop RIGHT then. Try that with your proposed scenario.

This is why there would be a much longer and more demanding process of matching client with nanny. As I said, perhaps there's a full year of live-in as a test to see that they are compatible.

Quote:
But then why not a counselling service for women thinking about surrogacy? Why this whole 12-year Nanny business attached?

Because the Guild offers particular things that are available no where else.

Of course the other surrogacy options would be available, just as the advent of Companions didn't make whores go away. That's yet another parallel between the two. The Guild does not prevent the suffering of whores who are taken advantage of, but they try to make better options available.

Quote:
I don't consider Inara's job exploitative. She chooses it every day, could get out whenever she wants. She works with her body and mind, and it's - to me - no more exploitative than washing dishes in a restaurant, possibly less so because Inara receives ample compensation.

So - ample compensation makes it not exploitative?

Quote:
The key, for me, is in the length and flexibility of the committment. That's where the potential for grievous harm is.

And I think the length of commitment would be an expected part of it, something the nanny obviously knows about in advance. It is part of the draw. The young woman gets to be part of her child's life to whatever degree she puts in the contract.

I do see that there is difficulty is having the client able to end the contract. That is part of the storytelling for me, what makes it a drama rather than a fairy tale. I don't think the Guild is perfect, and I don't think it always acts for the maximum possible benefit of its members. As I said, I like the drama of exploring its weaknesses. I know you disagree, but I think this weakness is comparable to the demands it puts on Companions, which is why I put it in there.

Now, if I were to put together a nanny business myself... no way in hell I would LOL! This isn't me, this is some AU version of the Guild we're talking about. It's imperfect. Flawed even.

By the way, I didn't put something in my original post because it was too long already, but I said that the child could be the result of sex (I don't like this option, won't get into it now) or test tube. I didn't say, but was thinking, it could be her baby or not. You've said that you see it as much much less damaging for surrogates than for a woman having her own DNA'd baby. I don't really see the difference. If I carry a baby to term, I'm interested in it, whether my DNA or not. I'd want to be a part of it's life.

Anyway, all these options would be open to the nanny to choose what she wants to do. If she has severe discomfort about having her own DNA involved, then she doesn't do it that way.

Quote:
I honestly fail to see the demopgraphic of 18-year-olds who want to sell their reproductive system and their private lives for 12 years.

But it makes plenty of sense to you that a 12 year old decides that she's going to sell her body for a living? Yeah sure, the Companion can quit. After spending all her formative years training. The Nanny can quit too. It would be at least a few years before she contracts, and a responsible Guild would not allow her to do it until they beli

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 13, 2009 10:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually imagine Companions as having to take classes on childhood psychology, because surely some of their clients might have children that they might interact with?

Ew! No. As much as I'm mixing it up with AR about this nanny thing, my gut still rebels at any attempt to mix Companions and children. Companions are not there to play stepmom.

As to trainees working with children - sorry, but ew! again. I don't see it happening. I still can't imagine the raising of orphans as something combined with the training of Companions. The two just do not mix.

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BYTEMITE

Monday, July 13, 2009 10:37 PM (P)

Aw. ._. *Goosesteps*

I think it'd be a fulfilling thing for trainees to be doing, taking care of little sisters or brothers in the guild in their free time.

I can imagine a tiny Nandi with a tinier Inara, chasing each other around, girl chatting... Back to the original topic of the thread, now that I think of it, if Inara ever got up to any kind of mischief, I bet Nandi would be the one goading her on.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 13, 2009 11:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aw. ._. *Goosesteps*

I think it'd be a fulfilling thing for trainees to be doing, taking care of little sisters or brothers in the guild in their free time.

I guess we have a very different understanding of the Guild. I see it as pretty serious and quiet and... well, grown up. I don't see any little ones around at all, and I don't see child-raising as a skill that's needed or encouraged in Companions. They have plenty to do as it is!

But if I can twist a distant sector of the Guild into Nanny-dom, you certainly could twist it into little sister-dom. You just need to find a way to explain why we've never seen that aspect of it in the series.

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