End Dollhouse campaign!

POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Monday, January 25, 2010 14:29
VIEWED: 16469
PAGE 1 of 1

CALHOUN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:44 AM (P)

I have given Dollhouse chance after chance to impress and enthrall me and it just continues to fail utterly..

Now while the title of this thread is made in "semi-jest" I for one will not be watching ANYMORE and in all seriousness I think the show should be ended and Joss should move on to something else.

I love everything Joss, that is everything except Dollhouse.

KWICKO

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:49 AM (P)

On the one hand, Hellelujah! Someone had to finally say it out loud! You're among the seeming droves of us who've tried, and tried, and tried some more, but who just can't keep up this charade, and are finally giving up on the show and admitting that it just plains sucks.

On the other hand, I understand that there are those who love it, and I wish them the best of luck in keeping it alive.

As I've said before, I'd really love to peek back in somewhere in the middle of Season Four, and find out that Dollhouse is the best damned show in the history of television. But until that day, color me out.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

OPPYH

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:15 AM (P)

Joss Whedon
Has
Failed
Us

DEWRASTLER

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:35 AM (P)

I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

CALHOUN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:01 AM (P)

Quote:
Dewrastler wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 18:35

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

You know Joss can do way better..

STOWEAWAY

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:52 AM (P)

I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com to for hilarious shirts at a great price.

CALHOUN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

KRELLEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:52 PM (P)

could some please join the battle for Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles, there has been some indication that people at WB is really considering to maybe start it again.
if not a series then, perhaps a movie, and see where it goes from there, by buying both seasons on DVD, take a look at the following sites, The sarah connor chronicles wiki,
SaveTtSCC.com to hear what else you all can do:-)

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:09 PM (P)

I think I'd actually sign a petition like this. Joss's talents can be better used elsewhere.

It's like when TSCC was canceled. I was so happy that Summer could move on and hopefully find a good show to be on. Sadly she jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire where she landed in the Dollhouse. One more cancellation and maybe she'll end up someplace better.

EVILDINOSAUR

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:51 PM (P)

You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

GWEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:49 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

Seconded. What a bunch of pompous bull.

But then, what do you expect in an article that describes Battlestar Galactica as "one of the most important achievements in the history of entertainment"?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

DEWRASTLER

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Seconded.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:33 PM (P)

Competition will kill it
even if the competitors are doing average they are doing a lot better than Dollhouse

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/03/thirteen-episodes-per-season-is-e
nough-for-warehouse-13-showrunner/29430
Thirteen (episodes per season) is enough for Warehouse 13 showrunner

Sounds like SyFy is pretty happy with Friday’s two-hour premiere of their latest new show, Stargate: Universe. Besides trumpeting the “best franchise premiere performance in four years”, the channel’s press release also took time out to get a rib kick into Joss Whedon’s poorly performing Dollhouse on network (i.e. free) TV.
http://www.scificool.com/syfy-boasts-about-stargate-universe-ratings-d
ollhouse-beatdown/

Dollhouse: it sucks
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/04/09/dollhouse-it-sucks/

Quote:
Big disappointment from Josh Whedon over Dollhouse. Then again, I never liked Buffy/Angel either. Too corny of TV series. But both JBQ and I loved “Firefly”. I was fooled into thinking that after Firefly, Whedon found the perfect recipe for a successful — or at least cult — TV series. Instead, we were served some pretty boring, pedestrian flat shit.

http://drnormalblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/why-joss-whedons-dollhous
e-fails/

Quote:
1. Eliza Dushku isn’t up to the job

2. The Show’s Premise Makes No Sense

3. There’s nothing Special About It

4. Who the Hell Cares?

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=53284230553&topic=8242

Quote:

The problems are in the premise.

First of all, the very idea of interchangeable personalities means that the character will always be a blank slate.

Second, they obviously created this show just to try to put Eliza Dushku into multiple performances and personalities. Unfortunately, she can't quite pull it off. She's not helped by the writing, which doesn't give any of the alternate personalities any real interest -- except the master thief, which plays into Dushku's strengths.

My mind goes especially to that murdered older woman in "Haunted". She got something like one line before she's killed, so the result is that we don't care about who killed her, because we don't care about her. Olivia Williams further ruined that character by being so frighteningly ordinary in everything she did. Imagine if they'd cast somebody interesting as DeWitt, an actress like Kate Beckinsale or Naomi Watts. Everything Williams touched, every scene and line, turned into bland white bread. And Fran Kranz is just horrible -- just why they didn't just cast Jonathan M. Woodward (Knox in Angel) or Adam Busch (Warren in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) is a mystery to me; they would have been perfect as the science nerd, except they would have been able to handle real comedy. Kranz looks like he's at an amateur night of improv comedy.

Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

as for the Bull riding scene I'll give it a pass because I can't stand to look at that AIDS victim Dj whatshisface

OPPYH

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 5:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

I think the majority of Joss fans are disappointed with Dollhouse. It is an average show with an intriguing premise. It just doesn't grab me like Buffy, Angel, or Firefly did. In fact it's not even near those shows in the "must see" category.

I find it tragic that Firefly had nearly triple the viewership as Dollhouse, but was deep sixed so early on people never knew what hit them.

That being said if you enjoy Dollhouse more power to ya. Watch and enjoy. I'm just speaking for the true Joss Fans that feel he is so much better than Dollhouse, and as a whole we miss that.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I'm just speaking for the true Joss Fans that feel he is so much better than Dollhouse, and as a whole we miss that.

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Would you respect the man if he up and quit Dollhouse right now? I would see that as a real jerk thing to do. Create something and when it doesn't go well just give up and leave it to someone else to clean up. So, in that sense he is somewhat trapped right now. I think he's too nice of a person to ditch all the great people he's working with.

I don't see how people saying that Joss can do better is saying he's our slave. Joss has plenty of projects on his back burner. Projects some of us are hungry for. Joss is still going to create what he wants (funding willing). Are you saying we aren't entitled to an opinion?

I can understand the "don't ruin it for me" attitude, but you're essentially doing the same to people who would rather see Joss work on Dr. Horrible 2 or the Book comics or whatever new show Joss might have on the line. By producing Dollhouse he's not off doing those things. So, they're being ruined for the rest of us. If there were infinite Joss resources then it would be a problem for people to want him off Dollhouse. Unfortunately he's only one man and time spent on Dollhouse is time he isn't spending on other endeavors. So, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:30 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

I can understand the "don't ruin it for me" attitude, but you're essentially doing the same to people who would rather see Joss work on Dr. Horrible 2 or the Book comics or whatever new show Joss might have on the line. By producing Dollhouse he's not off doing those things. So, they're being ruined for the rest of us. If there were infinite Joss resources then it would be a problem for people to want him off Dollhouse. Unfortunately he's only one man and time spent on Dollhouse is time he isn't spending on other endeavors. So, please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KWICKO

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I get it if you don't like the show. Not everything is for everyone. Everyone has likes what they like and I respect that.

But please, please, PLEASE don't try to go out there and ruin it for those of us that do watch the show.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

That sums it up perfectly. I don't care for the show, but that's MY subjective reaction to it. There's no need for me to go around trying to petition for its cancelation. Others like it, so I wish them the very best of luck, and hope that they have it around for years and years.

By the way, if you have a hit show, you'll get another, and another - often while the first one is still going. If you have a string of canceled shows, it's not that easy...

In other words, the best thing you can do for Joss, by way of him getting another series, is hope for Dollhouse to become a mega-hit.

I've tried and tried, but it's just not for me. Don't let that be an indictment of Joss or the show, though - I couldn't get through the first episode of Lost, either, and I've heard it was a little bit of a hit. Doesn't that guy have another show going, or some movies or something?

And yes, that was snark.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

You think Joss is going to close up shop and stop working all together if Dollhouse is canceled? His brother specifically said in an interview that they haven't done much for Dr. Horrible 2 because they're too busy right now. It's not wild speculation that they'd work on it if they had less on their plate.

From what I heard his "overseeing" of 3 series was mostly working on Firefly and leaving the others on autopilot. Those reports could be wrong, but he's still not capable of being in more than one place at a time.

Still seems like everyone just wants Joss working on what they want. Don't see why one group is any more noble than another.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, the difference there being group A is ruining something that is actually happening for others, while group b is supposedly ruining something that is merely speculation.

Besides, I highly doubt that Dollhouse has anything at all to do with the delay in finding an artist for Shepard's Tale.....

And this is a man that oversaw 3 series concurrently. Somehow I doubt that Dollhouse is the sole reason he's not doing anything else.

You think Joss is going to close up shop and stop working all together if Dollhouse is canceled? His brother specifically said in an interview that they haven't done much for Dr. Horrible 2 because they're too busy right now. It's not wild speculation that they'd work on it if they had less on their plate.

Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

Quote:
From what I heard his "overseeing" of 3 series was mostly working on Firefly and leaving the others on autopilot. Those reports could be wrong, but he's still not capable of being in more than one place at a time.

I recall him telling the story differently. And sure, he can't be in 2 places at once.... but he doesn't NEED to be at all places at all times.

Quote:
Still seems like everyone just wants Joss working on what they want. Don't see why one group is any more noble than another.

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KHAMBILO

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
You make it sound as though Joss is doing Dollhouse against his will. Is the browncoat army supposed to rise up and free him from this show so that he can make something else you may or may not approve of?

I'm seeing a rising opinion around here that Joss is the personal property of the browncoats. People seem to think that if he isn't doing what we want, then he needs to be made to do what we want. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?

Yes, Dollhouse is a very different show from Firefly. Recall that Firefly was a very different show from Buffy/Angel. Maybe Joss doesn't want do the same thing twice. Maybe he wants to do something different.

You don't like Dollhouse, that's fine. Please accept that there are those of us who do. Please accept that Joss is among us. He wouldn't be wasting his time on a show he didn't think was good.

He thought Firefly was good, a lot of people didn't, and it was cancelled. If that's the future for Dollhouse, so be it. But there's no reason to push towards that end.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

Seconded.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

Thirded.

ASARIAN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Quote:
Stoweaway wrote:
Monday, October 12, 2009 19:52
I like the questions that it forces the viewer to ask themself.

But this blogger says it way better than me.....

http://geekbuffet.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/dollhouse/

That link.. Wow! Way to over analyze. Yeah, yeah, I get it.. do we have souls. He makes it sound like the best/most intellectual show on Tv. Meh..

I dont buy it.

Bring back Firefly!

Seconded. What a bunch of pompous bull.

Thirded. LOL. That's exactly what I thought!

Dollhouse is actually quite the opposite. It's 4th grade tech talk and philosophical mumbo-jumbo. As Dr. Normal put it so well in his blog: "The only part of it you remember is how much it talks down to you as if you have all the brain cells of Eliza Dushku’s Echo. And that’s damn hard to forgive." The man's got a point. It's worse even. Being talked down to is one thing: if people are actually more knowledgeable than you. Instead, the show talks down to you from a low position itself, trying to pass it off as clever. Like the way Topher peddles his idiotic over-simplifications of the brain, or his non-sensical computer wizardry. Very reminiscent of Dr. Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis) always talking about installing a "macro," or a "subroutine," terms that probably sound very impressive to a 12-year-old. But try and sell it to an adult, and you're just insulting them -- especially when you communicate your gibberish in a condescending fashion. That's adding insult to... well, insult.

I've been willing to overlook at lot -- after all, I'm still watching it. But when folks come out and say Dollhouse "may be the most intellectually engaging television series in the history of American television," then I shall forthwith send Kaylee back to question Mr. geekbuffet a second time!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

KHAMBILO

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

And besides the aforementioned Shepherds Tale book and Dr. Horrible 2, Joss has his plate full with a whole host of other things

-Cabin in the Woods - Writer and Producer
-Buffy Season 8 - and I believe he recently announced season 9 as well, and because of that it wouldn't be too much to assume that Angel will get the same treatment
-Goners - a sort of mystery project - IMDB lists him as the writer and director
-Ripper - it's been rumored for forever, but IMDB is still listing it. I'm not sure how reliable that is, but I wouldn't count it out either.

In addition to these, it's been mentioned that Joss has had planned to do a short film project that is currently on the backburner, but not necessarily outed and he's also been affiliated with Marvel lately. He wrote an X-men comic and is also tied with another Marvel comic series Runaways.
( http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/07/07/joss-whedons-hollywood-status-upd
ate-horror-fantasy-goners-cabin-in-the-woods-and-more/)

To say that Joss's time is being tied up solely in Dollhouse is clearly false.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, but my point is, your essentially saying screw those who like Dollhouse, drop it and do what I want.

And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

I addressed that - you cut it out of your quote (interesting, from a guy requesting honesty.....). Maybe you should just go back and re-read it, less selectively, you know?

Aw, here, since I'm a nice guy, I'll save you time: You aren't just saying "Screw everyone else, do what I like" you are ALSO saying "Joss, screw what you want to do, and do what I like."

As you said, be honest.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:01 PM (P)

He's said he wants to do Dr. Horrible 2 and he's not doing it. I cut it out cause I disagree. The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

Last I heard Cabin in the Woods is in the can. Possibly doing some finishing touches but I doubt it's much.
Goners got canceled I thought.
Ripper was too last I heard.
Buffy comics are another thing I'd rather he focused on instead of Dollhouse.

Really I'd take any of those over Dollhouse.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:14 PM (P)

Quote:
And "Screw everyone else, I like Dollhouse" is better why?

I don't have a problem with either stance, but let's all be honest about our greedy motivations.

I don't like Dollhouse myself much, even though I watch it. The only episode I really found very engaging was Man on the Street. I've tried to be positive about it, sometimes I've even thought some of the plot twists were good in some episodes, but over all it's been me feeling blah about it but still trying to give it a chance. I don't have to watch Dollhouse, and I normally wouldn't if it was anyone but Joss.

What I want is for Joss to do what HE wants to do. And apparently it's this. Go figure.

CALHOUN

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:00 PM (P)

Quote:
asarian wrote:
Tuesday, October 13, 2009 09:51

Dollhouse is actually quite the opposite. It's 4th grade tech talk and philosophical mumbo-jumbo. As Dr. Normal put it so well in his blog: "The only part of it you remember is how much it talks down to you as if you have all the brain cells of Eliza Dushku’s Echo. And that’s damn hard to forgive." The man's got a point. It's worse even. Being talked down to is one thing: if people are actually more knowledgeable than you. Instead, the show talks down to you from a low position itself, trying to pass it off as clever. Like the way Topher peddles his idiotic over-simplifications of the brain, or his non-sensical computer wizardry. Very reminiscent of Dr. Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis) always talking about installing a "macro," or a "subroutine," terms that probably sound very impressive to a 12-year-old. But try and sell it to an adult, and you're just insulting them -- especially when you communicate your gibberish in a condescending fashion. That's adding insult to... well, insult.

Well said.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

...uh... what? The only reason he's making the show it to fit their schedule....? What kind of asinine logic is that? Fox isn't holding a gun to his head to make Dollhouse. If he didn't WANT to do it, he could have:

A) Not pitched it.
B) Refused to lower the costs after season 1, and let it be canceled
C) Work on other projects concurrently (which he has done many times before)
D) Let it continue with a different show-runner.
F) Quit, and let FOX figure it out

He did none of those, and CHOSE to keep doing the show.

As for Dr. Horrible 2 - I'm sure that Neil Patrick Harris and Nathan Fillion both starring in successful shows has nothing at all to do with the delay. If only Dollhouse wasn't going, they would be instantly free to fly off and do it....because obviously they're not doing anything else....

You act as if he's locked in some dungeon, forced to toil away at this show against his will. It's ridiculous, and your reasoning borders on nonsensical.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ZEEK

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:43 PM (P)

You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

MANGOLO

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by khambilo:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, one group wants Joss to keep doing the thing they already like - and that HE seems to be enjoying (or he wouldn't have made concessions for renewal). So some are wanting Joss to stop doing what HE likes to do what they want.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

And besides the aforementioned Shepherds Tale book and Dr. Horrible 2, Joss has his plate full with a whole host of other things

-Cabin in the Woods - Writer and Producer
-Buffy Season 8 - and I believe he recently announced season 9 as well, and because of that it wouldn't be too much to assume that Angel will get the same treatment
-Goners - a sort of mystery project - IMDB lists him as the writer and director
-Ripper - it's been rumored for forever, but IMDB is still listing it. I'm not sure how reliable that is, but I wouldn't count it out either.

In addition to these, it's been mentioned that Joss has had planned to do a short film project that is currently on the backburner, but not necessarily outed and he's also been affiliated with Marvel lately. He wrote an X-men comic and is also tied with another Marvel comic series Runaways.
( http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/07/07/joss-whedons-hollywood-status-upd
ate-horror-fantasy-goners-cabin-in-the-woods-and-more/)

To say that Joss's time is being tied up solely in Dollhouse is clearly false.

AND he is running around Hollywood trying to raise money for his own micro-studio to produce more things like Dr. Horrible- that in itself is a full time job!

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:06 PM (P)

Quote:
You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

No one has argued any of those points. In fact, most of those points can not really be argued because they are opinions.

We have only disagreed that Joss "should quit Dollhouse to work on better shows." Which I believe was the premise at the start of this thread...?

GWEK

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:47 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The reason he's doing Dollhouse is because he has to fit the network's schedule. There's no task master on Dr. Horrible 2 so it gets shoved to the back of the list. I don't think that's what Joss wants.

...uh... what? The only reason he's making the show it to fit their schedule....? What kind of asinine logic is that? Fox isn't holding a gun to his head to make Dollhouse.

Well, in a certain sense, they are. Whedon presumably has a contract with the network to do X amount of work for DOLLHOUSE, assuming DOLLHOUSE continues. If he were to fail to live up to his end of the deal, there would be financial (and likely professional) ramifications.

I think what Zeek is getting at, basically, if that Joss has to fulfil his commitment to his JOB (working on DOLLHOUSE) before he can spend time on PERSONAL PROJECTS (such as DR. HORRIBLE 2), for which he might have more passion.

Nothing asinine about that viewpoint. That's the problem most of us have to face: I'd RATHER spend my day writing virtual Firefly episodes than working at a real job, but I also have a powerful need to eat. Joss, however, is theoretically in a position where if his "job" ended (ie, DOLLHOUSE were cancelled), he's got enough clout and money that he'd be just fine without it and could move on to other projects.

Quote:
If he didn't WANT to do it, he could have:

A) Not pitched it.

He did not initially want to pitch it. He said, in fact, that he didn't want to work on TV again, and specifically didn't want to work for FOX.

Dushku, who has a development deal with the network, begged him to do the show when he came up with the concept on the spur of the moment.

It's true that he could simply have refused, but our boy Joss does seem to love a challenge. More importantly, though, the story of the show's inception pretty clearly demonstrates that Joss's heart wasn't necessarily in DOLLHOUSE the way it was with other shows right from the very start.

Quote:
B) Refused to lower the costs after season 1, and let it be canceled

Again, your statement is essentially true. However, in for penny, in for pound. Once Joss attached himself to DOLLHOUSE, he can't ALLOW it to fail.

It's pretty clear from interviews and commentary that Joss often takes a subversive--if not outright adversarial--approach to dealing with the networks.

If Joss were to out-and-out refuse to deal with the networks and just walk away, there would likely be some longterm ramifications for his career. A reputation as brilliant but difficult is very different from a rep as a guy who refuses to compromise at all.

Quote:
C) Work on other projects concurrently (which he has done many times before)

And he has, in interviews, admitted the failure inherent to that. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he never said he'd do that again (of course, he also said he'd never work with FOX again...).

His situation now, however, is very different than when he was working on BUFFY, ANGEL, and FIREFLY. Back around the turn of the century, Whedon was "empire building." He was expanding outward, on the rise, starting with Buffy and moving on to other projects.

More importantly, he didn't broaden his horizons until his current project could run on its own. DOLLHOUSE, under constant thread of cancellation, is nowhere close to that. DOLLHOUSE barely floats WITH Joss. It would surely sink without him.

You know, I've always found the year that Joss worked on three series to be quite intriguing. You can actually watch the quality move from show to show as Joss's focus changed throughout the course of the year.

Quote:
D) Let it continue with a different show-runner.
F) Quit, and let FOX figure it out

Again, these are choices that are professionally unpalatable. Either could be essentially career suicide, at least in the short term.

Quote:
He did none of those, and CHOSE to keep doing the show.

Indeed. Because it'

STORYMARK

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
You're right. Go Dollhouse. It's a really good show. Joss is master of all of hollywood. All other opinions are incorrect.

Taking your toys and going home, because people won't jump on your bandwagon? Feel free. Maybe your mommie will make ya some cookies to cheer you up.

Oh, and I never said it was a great show - I specifically said I wasn't a fan - I was merely pointing out that just because some don't like it, it doesn't mean no-one does, nor does it mean poor wittle Joss is locked in a dungeon forced to make the show. Sorry that's so upsetting to you... wait, no, I'm not.

Oh, and no one said other opinions were incorrect - but when you express your opinion, and insist it's fact - be ready to treated like a tool.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

OPPYH

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

HELL'S KITTEN

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:19 PM (P)

...oh, how fun, more "true fan" talk.

Personally, from my point of view, being a "true fan" means you realize and accept this simple fact:

JOSS WHEDON IS NOT YOUR BITCH.

You can like the show or you can hate the show, and you can express that in any way you like. But wanting everyone who works on it to suddenly be unemployed because you don't like it and so Joss can work on what you want... well, quite frankly, you're acting like spoiled little children with entitlement issues. And that, right there, is quite possibly the number one reason why fandoms turn from awesome to suck.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

Well, if your friends hate it, it must mean you are the sole authority on what makes a true fan - or your an ass, one of those two.

I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NIKI2

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 8:43 PM (P)

Maybe others have said this, but I haven't read the entire thread. I tried to like Dollhouse; it left me cold. Haven't bothered since. On the other hand, I wish all who enjoy it a long run; it's not my place to force my taste on others.

While, yes, I would like to see Joss working on something I could appreciate, it's not my place to bitch and moan about what he DOES choose to work on.

Quote:
Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

Found that very interesting--in that I never liked Buffy (because I thought those adjectives described her perfectly for eight years), but loved the show. And I admit all of the female characters in Firefly might well come under the same description: pedastalled.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:57 PM (P)

Interesting. All of them?

River perhaps might be "pedastalled." Hurt dark waifishly ethereal girl who can kick ass is probably someone's female fantasy.

Zoe's attitude and strength is as well, I think Wash pretty much sums up that angle.

But Kaylee and Inara...? While both are attractive, even drop-dead gorgeous, I also always got "just a regular girl" vibes from them, where Kaylee is the tom-boy and Inara is the lip-stick and high-heels girl.

And I've also always thought that Inara was about deconstructing pedestals. She's introduced as a character who is arguably higher on the social totem pole than anyone except the Tams before the Academy, but she's also shown to be "one of the gang." The only character who resists that inclusion is Mal, who does put her on a pedestal in a way that I think is meant to illustrate how foolish his behaviour is.

Kaylee too, yeah she's a little harsh on Simon now and then, but I thought one of the themes there was to get Simon to loosen up. Respect, but without being ridiculous or condescending.

DEWRASTLER

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:41 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Now, I'm not a Dollhouse fan myself, but I don't think anyone has the right to say who is or isn't a "true" Joss fan. Just kind-of a dick statement to make.

All my friends hate the show too(all of them fans of Buffy and Firefly) so from my perspective, I think my statement was accurate.
I guess being a true Joss Whedon fan would mean liking the piece of shit show Dollhouse also, So I guess I'm not one either.

Cheeers.

What's with all the hostility, everyone? This is supposed to be a place to share ideas, and now we're putting people down for having different opinions and calling each other names. That just doesn't sit right with me.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

ECGORDON

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
What's with all the hostility, everyone? This is supposed to be a place to share ideas, and now we're putting people down for having different opinions and calling each other names. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Yeah, you'd think this was RWED or something.

As for myself, I am continuing to watch Dollhouse and I expect I will for as long as FOX keeps it on the air. Do I love it? No, perhaps I don't even like it some weeks. But there is a potentially great show lurking in there somewhere and I'd like to see it if it ever shows up.

If you don't like it don't watch it, but don't tell me I'm a sheeple for continuing with the show. Hell, I'm still watching Heroes and we all know how bad that has been since the end of Season One.

OPPYH

Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:00 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

Glad you enjoy Dollhouse. If it gets really good let me know.

Oh, and if you don't like the show....WHY THE HELL ARE YO ARGUING WITH ME?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:19 AM (P)

Because we don't think Joss should just quit. He has an obligation to his crew, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he doesn't want to work on this.

RAHLMACLAREN

Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:15 AM (P)

Okay, I'll admit this season is starting out suckally(sp?). Much like the last one. I think the people (including me) who know the show isn't as good as it could be, but watch it anyway, are waiting/hoping for another "Man on the Street" moment. An ep that makes you think: "Oh yeah, this is a Joss Whedon show!".

Personally, I was hoping that season 2 would start off in the future after "Epitaph One". Maybe have an opening narration about what happened on the show so far a la "Heroes", but start it close to where we left off....

Select to view spoiler:

The Roof.

Yeah, I'm kind-of interested in Sierra, Echo, Victor, Boyd, Paul, and even Topher; but in comparison, I actually CARE (a lot) about "Little Caroline", Mag, and Zone, and where in the Hell "Save Haven" is!

ETA: Okay, I just noticed this: Is it just me, or does my Tara quote signature look like what would be written on a sign when entering the "Save Haven"?

--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

OPPYH

Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:14 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
While, yes, I would like to see Joss working on something I could appreciate, it's not my place to bitch and moan about what he DOES choose to work on.

It is your place. Everyone has an opinion, and that is what forums are for. To express your likes, and dislikes. I've seen you go batty in the RWED(over opinionated) so why stop with politics? TV is just as fun to discuss. We are all adults, you don't have to worry about offending someone. Be someone......have a voice in pop culture!

BYTEMITE

Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:56 PM (P)

The problem is, this is kind of like arguing over whether a mother should breast-feed or bottle-feed. Pros and cons, but it's still the choice of the parent, and anonymous voices really aren't going to have much influence.

OPPYH

Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The problem is, this is kind of like arguing over whether a mother should breast-feed or bottle-feed. Pros and cons, but it's still the choice of the parent, and anonymous voices really aren't going to have much influence.

This is true, but Joss Whedon is making a show for everyone to enjoy. When many people are dissatisfied with the product, it his obligation to make it better(not suck). Or he can choose to go his own way, and be associated with a turkey of a show.

DEWRASTLER

Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
When many people are dissatisfied with the product, it his obligation to make it better(not suck)

What makes you believe he's not trying?

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

KWICKO

Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:34 PM (P)

It IS getting a little too RWED in here...

I'm not watching Dollhouse any more, but as I've said, I'd like to come back sometime in the middle of Season Four and find out it's not only the best show on TV ever, but the most popular as well.

Why? Simple. I have ulterior motives. I want Joss to be the biggest badass in Hollywood; I want studios lining up outside his door begging him to let them back his next installment of Firefly or Serenity. I want them beating down his door, pleading with him to help get "Buffy: The Musical" on Broadway.

To do all that, he needs a hit show, not a dud.

In the meantime, anyone who likes Dollhouse should feel free to continue to do so. Who am I to judge what's good and what isn't when it comes to TV? I liked Gilmore Girls; I like Eastwick, and I hate Vampire Diaries, so what do I know?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

BYTEMITE

Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:21 PM (P)

Ah. See now, that's the thing: you're looking at this show like a product, and "the customer is always right."

There's an element of this, to be sure, it's the same element that determines whether the show's canceled.

But tv shows are also technically art: the writing, the cinematography, the acting.

Any given tv show is going to be some mix between the two. There are tv shows that exist only as a product, something that makes the customer happy, or for them to buy. Children's shows are often an example of this: the show merely exists as a vector to children to buy show-related merchandise.

Or there are shows that exist to try to explore complicated and possibly unpleasant ideas or themes.

Perhaps Dollhouse hasn't been executed well, but the only part of it that is product that I see is that it is a platform for Eliza Dushku. The rest of is trying to be art, and art is the domain ONLY of the artist. Art may be unsuccessful, but it is the EFFORT of the art that is the nobler endeavor.

In short, this is the baby of Joss Whedon and the production crew. The viewers are just along for the ride.

ASARIAN

Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

What makes you believe he's not trying?

Ever so often I see this random quote flashing by as this board's heading:

"I poured my heart and soul into that show. I believed in it with every fibre of my being." - Joss Whedon on Firefly

In earnest, do you think Joss will ever say the same about Dollhouse? I don't. Genius or no, making a good show is hard work. I always love this example from the Out of Gas shooting script:

---------------------
BESTER
Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL
I really don't. Pack your things.
(then)
She got a name?
---------------------

After revising it (how many times?) we eventually got this:

---------------------
BESTER
Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL
I really don't.
---------------------

Period. No "Pack your things." No "She got a name?" (just cutting to the scene where Mal yells "Kaylee!!") The revised version is much more subtle: the former is okay, the latter is memorable.

Now, as for Dollhouse, it feels like the aforementioned shooting script: you can clearly see the hand of Joss in it, but it lacks the coherent brilliancy of Firefly. To answer your question, maybe Joss is trying with Dollhouse, but to make it really good he needs to try again; and again, until it's a shiny little trinket too. And I honestly don't believe he's thus pouring heart and soul into Dollhouse. "Man On the Street" was the only episode I felt he really sat down for to make it memorable as only he can. For the rest, not so much. That, for all purposes and intent, to me qualifies as "not trying."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

OPPYH

Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

What makes you believe he's not trying?

When I started watching Buffy during the second season, I thought I would get a few laughs like I did watching the movie("You're floating").
I never...ever anticipated getting deeply emotionally involved with a tv show. Buffy changed things for me. For the first I realized tv could be better than first rate dramas coming out of Hollywood, and not just "comfort food" as I thought before Buffy. Buffy was the best show on television by a very large margin.
When I heard Joss was working on Firefly, I was upset because I thought he was abandoning Buffy. After watching the first episode on Fox(The Train Job) I was hooked. By the time "Ariel" aired, I was completely, utterly amazed. Lightning had struck twice. I liked Firefly as much as I liked Buffy.

The first episode of Dollhouse did nothing for me.
I didn't care for the characters, and the premise though interesting just wasn't my cup of tea.
The show felt a little too mainstream(CSI, Ghost Whisperer). For the first time since watching Buffy, Joss made a show I could "skip".

Now I know Joss probably has Dollhouse all charted out, and the overall story arc is probably brilliant, but as of now I'm done watching.

I'm sure he is trying hard to make it work, and I feel bad that the viewership is so low. He deserves all the success in the world.

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

Glad you enjoy Dollhouse. If it gets really good let me know.

Oh, and if you don't like the show....WHY THE HELL ARE YO ARGUING WITH ME?

Principle. I may not like it (I don't dislike it per se either, more neutral), but it just seems prickish to me to demand it be canceled because the guys not doing what you want him to do.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
To answer your question, maybe Joss is trying with Dollhouse, but to make it really good he needs to try again;

I think he's trying something different with Dollhouse, and working outside his comfort zone of "joke-joke-DRAMA-joke-joke-KILL THE MOST LOVABLE CHARACTER" which, even though most of us like, was getting a bit predictable (even before the series was canceled, I was sure either Wash or Kaylee was eventually going to die horrifically).

I respect him for stretching, and trying to expand his repertoire and do something new. In this case, it doesn't seem to be working, but that sometimes happens when you stretch. Maybe he can turn it around for this show, maybe not. Maybe his next project will work, maybe not. It's how it goes - nobody hits a home run every time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:43 PM (P)

Whoops, double post.

NIKI2

Friday, October 16, 2009 7:51 PM (P)

Quote:
I've seen you go batty in the RWED(over opinionated) so why stop with politics?

Gee, thanx...I'M over-opinionated, eh? Hoo-kay...and yes, there is hostility here I don't think is necessary, tho' I suppose once one gets hooked into something, it can feel like we "own" it. As to my opinion, I expressed it; I don't like Dollhouse, and I didn't like the character of Buffy herself (which is probably somewhat tainted by the fact I don't like Geller's attitude). That's sufficient opinion, isn't it?

As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

STORYMARK

Friday, October 16, 2009 9:38 PM (P)

Wait.... miracle worker Engineers who always fix the ship are pretty much a staple of the genre. Why is no one complaining about Scotty being on a pedestal?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

BYTEMITE

Friday, October 16, 2009 10:51 PM (P)

Quote:
As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

Oh, this is interesting. :) There's probably other threads about this, but we should start another one to discuss it, because I'm curious how a lot of people would weigh in. Each character has her share of supporters and detractors, some who might disagree with you, some who wouldn't.

Now, I think the women did make mistakes. Wash is rightfully pissed at Zoe in War Stories for her non-support, which actually causes the main problem in the episode. River has some tendencies to wander off and cause problems, though after the Reaver massacre, that probably won't feature as much with her. Inara has shown some extremely poor judgment in regards to clients, and also made what I think was a mistake in deciding to leave, though I can understand why she did. Kaylee... Okay, I can't actually think of any times where Kaylee made any mistakes, except that one time when she gets pissed at Simon and starts flirting with Tracy, but that was really minor. Kaylee has, however, shown some naivety and lapses in judgment that I suspect would have gotten her in trouble eventually.

Do the men make mistakes MORE OFTEN? Probably. It could be possible that it's harder for the average audience to laugh at women making mistakes than it is men, because perhaps audiences tend to see women as more vulnerable. Most of the time when the men make mistakes in Firefly, it's played for laughs.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, October 16, 2009 11:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedestal?

Wash can also work miracles with Serenity, though from the pilot's chair rather than the engine room. Kaylee is touchy and emotional, which does call attention to Simon putting his foot in his mouth, but neither of them is in the right most of the time. And it's rather amusing to me that you would call someone who gets paid for physical intimacy, among other things, untouchable. Inara isn't untouchable, she's closed off. So is Mal. Neither of them is willing to just come out and say what they're feeling because they have huge blocks around it. They're two of the most fallible characters on the show for this reason. Zoe might be the most 'pedestalled' of the bunch, but she also clearly has her flaws. Her split loyalty can and has caused tension in her marriage, and she's not very good at talking things through when she's upset, as shown by her reaction to Saffron, among other things. Yeah, Mal gets beat up on a lot, but he also saves the day and does the right thing. Jayne kind of bumbles around a bit and messes up, but you definitely want him in a fight and sometimes he can save the day and do the right thing... sometimes. Simon puts his foot in his mouth, but he also fixes people and saves the day. And Wash... well, he saved the day numerous times. He would occasionally argue with his wife and was ambivalent about children, but even with one engine and 20% power the man could land a giant spaceship without seriously injuring anybody. So if you're going to talk about characters on a pedestal, he needs to be included there, too.

[/sig]

OPPYH

Saturday, October 17, 2009 3:40 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
over-opinionated, eh? Hoo-kay...and yes, there is hostility here I don't think is necessary, tho' I suppose once one gets hooked into something, it can feel like we "own" it. As to my opinion, I expressed it; I don't like Dollhouse, and I didn't like the character of Buffy herself (which is probably somewhat tainted by the fact I don't like Geller's attitude). That's sufficient opinion, isn't it?

As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

Thank you. And about the RWED remark, what I meant to say was you are very vocal about issues you are concerned with. Over opinionated was a little harsh. Sorry.

JAYNEZTOWN

Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:27 PM (P)

Joss Whedon Looks Back Over Dollhouse

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/97528-Joss-Whedon-Looks-Back
-Over-Dollhouse

CALHOUN

Monday, January 25, 2010 11:19 AM (P)

OK, I had nothing to watch so I went back and watched the rest of the Dollhouse episodes i'd missed. The later half of season 2 showed much more promise but all in all I am still glad its over. Interesting to see that Joss said he wasnt entirely happy with where he went with Dollhouse.

I hope to see something new from Joss real soon.

KWICKO

Monday, January 25, 2010 1:09 PM (P)

Well, my TV schedule shows a new episode to air this Friday on Fox ("Epitaph Two"), so I *guess* that will be the end of this mess, eh?

ZEEK

Monday, January 25, 2010 2:29 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, my TV schedule shows a new episode to air this Friday on Fox ("Epitaph Two"), so I *guess* that will be the end of this mess, eh?

Yep that's the official final episode.

I'm with Calhoun. I'm still glad it's over. Even if it did improve for a few episodes. I just don't think it was capable of sustaining that level of quality.