Afghan culture and people
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 16:20
VIEWED: 13984
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Niki,
This is for you. It's time for me to shut up and listen. Tell us about Afganistan. I mean, what it's really like, not the political ping pong the US is playing. I want to get to know the area, and I think that everyone here does, or should. If you can, tell us what you know, and include any links to any information that tells it how it actually is, and I mean, real world not political.
When I talk to foreigners about American, it's very strange. They think the US is politically driven, and yet, really, most of US politics is just theater for us. What the govt. does doesn't affect our day to day lives. Occasionally it does, but just as an obstacle. MSM probably has more effect than the govt. I'm just curious about knowing the real Afghanistan.
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>>Crickets<<
Bump
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That was a shock: Thank you. Thank you for your civility, I expected you to lay into me (or maybe you haven't read my last response over there...) And thank you for wanting to know. I'd have to think about it to do a decent job, and I spent so much time on the last post that now it's dark, and, and...
But I can never resist, so I'll make a small start. Hopefully small. Apologies for the size of some of the pix, I just haven't got the energy to resize them. At least I resized the ones that would cause folks to scroll for the text.
My dad was sent to Afghanistan to help build Ariana Afghan Airways in 1958. They had tried to educate engineers here, but those brought here refused to go home. Not surprising. Ariana still exists, to my surprise; when we got there, their idea of "maintenance" was to fly the planes until they fell down in the desert, then walk away. Literally.
Because they did then, and many of them still do now, live in the age of Christ. That's the quickest and best picture I can give you. Driving in from the airport we passed a man leading a donkey with a woman and child on it. Mom cried "My gawd, it's Mary, Joseph and Jesus!"
There were no roads then...I doubt there are many good ones even now. The desert moves; it's a country where the northern half has 140-degree Summers, six-foot-snow Winters. Rivers flood, wash out bridges, and the desert never stops moving.
What isn't desert is rock. Now there is much more vegetation I see, but it became a desert in part because the Kuchis (nomadic tribes: camel caravans) used it as a trade route between Russia and everywhere else, and chopped down trees as they went through for campfires, etc. They helped create a desert.
Kabul is at 6,000 feet; the highest peak is 25,557 above sea level. It's a high desert. The mountain range is the Hindu Kush..."Hindu Killer"...an impentrable length of crags covered in snow that make the Alps look like gentle, rolling hills. Life is harsher than about any place on earth, except maybe the deserts of Africa or the North Pole. Survival is difficult at best, and poverty is the order of the day. Even the lakes were surrounded by desert and little else:
This is NOT a painting:
The houses were made of a combination of mud, donkey dung and straw...the floors dirt. If it was a bad rainy season, they just "melted".
In Kabul at the time (bear in mind that was 50 years ago, now it is much Westernized) there were "sewers", called Jui Ditches...upstream a horse might be relieving himself, downstream a woman washing clothes, further a child bathing or someone drinking. The disease rate was so bad (and I doubt THAT has changed much) that the saying was if a child lived to the age of ten, all that could kill him was a knife or a bullet.
And there were plenty of those. On Ramadan and other Muslim holidays, everyone stayed well within their compound walls...if they had compounds (which all non-natives did). Also when the Kuchis came through. The Kuchis didn’t veil their women; back then the men drove the sheep down from the high pasture, the women took the camels (loaded with goods and nets full of lambs) along the rivers (I imagine they stick closer together now, judging from the photos) and they’d meet up at night and strike huge, black tents.
http://i25.photob
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I realize it's the weekend and not many are here, but given the total lack of response to (seeming to represent a total lack of interest in) this topic, I am not going to take it any further.
Given my personal feelings, I can't help saying that it seems like people here, and probably most of America, are more interested in discussing Afghanistan as a basis for debating the political and military aspects, rather than leaning about the people we are killing.
Okay, so I'm bitter. It's like that with every country we invade, and I find that inexplicably sad. I spent hours, until late in the night, trying to give people a taste of what it's like where we send our men and what the people and culture of the country we've invaded and occupied for eight years are like.
I'm not really surprised at the lack of interest. When we came back from Afghanistan and people asked where we'd been, the inevitable response was "Isn't that some place in Africa or something?" Nobody would care about or even know about Afghanistan now if we weren't at war there, and most don't care about AFGHANISTAN even now, much less the Afghans.
It's human, but sad; if we bothered to learn anything about the culture and people of places like Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, etc., maybe we'd make better decisions.
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Niki
Thanks for posting the info.
It's a lot to absorb. And it's like finding out about any different culture. You go from, "Yeah, I get this." to "Why in the world would folks ever do that?", and back again - over and over. Pretty extreme "over and over" with the Afganis, it seems to me.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I'm just back from a long trip, so I wasn't around for the orginal postings. I AM interested, but I don't have much to say.
The picture of the legless man did stand out to me, though.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Sorry, Nik...
I was waiting to see other peoples responses, since I most of this already from my working with RAWA.
Unfortuntely, it is pretty true that most americans are quite blind to anything outside their own borders - the Pashtun folk I know north of here find that immensely irritating.
-F
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Sorry Nikki,
I'm very interested...
just haven't been at the computer until now today...
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists 
Lets party like its 1939
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can't imagine how I missed this thread , since Wednesday 'till now.
Fascinating.
As to a reaction: We have almost nothing in common with them. I can't see any way that our presence there can help them. The scale of the problems there is so extreme, it would take a minimum of 50 years, and tons of money, to start making a real change there, and as a nation, we can't guarantee anything for more than 4 years, most things beyond 2-- the Presidency and the Congress change that fast.
( I had more to write, but I can't get my head around it, so I'll just close here.)
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Interesting stuff.
Of course it prompts more questions, So I'm writing these in a second window, while I'm reading, so here's my running commentary thoughts...
If you check the time stamp, it was before your vitriolic post, but then I bumped this afterwords, because I thought it was a better thread. Mostly what bothered me about the other is it was degenerating into partisanship. And *yes* people on the right have the same frustrating experience that people on the left do: The other side endlessly defending the stupid war of their party, as well as other pointless actions. I think we could make a lot of headway by just admitting that both major parties are wrong, even if they are on our political side. But I digress... Afghanistan.
"Ariana" Probably ironically a derivation of Aryan. (for those with their irony sensors off, These are people who would also name something Hindu Kush.) Sorry, I find these contradictions humorous and at the same time very telling.
The society you describe is not dissimilar to that of early christian societies, but some north african nomadic behavior.
Just curious: Do these people graze animals? This is a very desolate landscape, the sort that grazing and herding might create over a couple thousand years.
Also, language/culture. Are they all muslims? or do you find animism in remote areas, or trace aryan beliefs?
There's a level of dysfunction here that you don't find across the border in western China, where the culture is Altaic, rather than Aryan or Semitic.
We eat naan here to, as I suppose they do in most of the world. I see a quick search reveals that it is persian in origin, like Paneer, though both are things you would be more likely to find I think now in India than Iran.
Sharia law is always a death sentence. 80% of all Sharia amputees die from complications. In our own early history, a man sentenced to be shot, could be shot, and survive, and the sentence was considered to be carried out. This is probably the reason for hangings.
Quote:
The childhood death rate you wouldn't believe, and the lifespan was about 40 back then--and a 40-year-old looked about like an 80-year-old here.
Yes, I would. I have wondered about the aging. I noticed this several times with Afghans. Is it the opium? Or something else in the diet? You don't see this so much with indo-aryans or with iranians.
Okay, animals: I'm guessing there was extensive grazing in the past which we part of the ecological collapse.
The roaches are a nice apocalyptic image, reminiscent of HG Wells. I imagine that's how it goes: The most resilient life form continues to feed off of everything else when life dies. The altitudes here point to a water table collapse, which meets with the deforestation, similar to the sahara, SW US, and similar situations. Fragile ecosystems at higher altitudes, though you can kill any: IIRC, parts of Xinjiang are below sea level.
"The Afghans were all convinced all Americans were rich"
Most of the world is. In the case of the Afghans, they're right. What's weirder is that Czechs have this image, when actually, we're no richer than Czechs. Conversely, lots of Americans think of countries like Mexico and Korea (maybe not anymore, but say even 5 years ago) as poor, though they are no poorer than the US. Not to mention western stereotypes about Sub-Saharan Africa...
Sheep, that's worse than cattle, environmentally speaking...
Obviously there's some pretty severe Sunni extremism in this. My Iranian friends didn't believe this existed outside of Saudi Arabia. So far my experience has been that the Shiia have no tolerance for this sort of thing. It gives more of an insight into why the two are not going to get along anytime soon.
But back to the people and land.
Another quick search reveals that the environmental collapse is pretty similar to africa, and not surprisingly, is more likely to kill the present inhabitants than anything else (the logical fallacy often used is: But we've lived this way for 1000s of years. The realit
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I will always have a lot of time for rich, personal accounts of the country of Afghanistan like this one Niki, and the other thread as well. Thank you.
Hmm, still don't know what the best course of action is for the good of this nation and its people though. My inclination is a temporary troop surge combined with new efforts to talk to the 'moderate' Taliban. I don't think we'll ever be able to 'build up' the Afghan state though, around Karzai, through troop/police training or whatever, so that it's strong and cohesive enough to keep stability on its own. I wonder if we might achieve better 'nation building' working directly with amenable local warlords, and fostering trade and prosperity amongst the people under them, but not democracy. This might be the best we can do.
But I don't know, just thinking aloud. A withdrawal to me still just seems irresponsible.
Heads should roll
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Thanks Niki. It's hard to believe this is a place that we need to send more troops to.
Dexter Filkin's book "The Forever War" is about Iraq and Afghanistan. It is one of the most compelling books I've ever read. I think it's the kind of book that a journalist hopes they are lucky enough to have a chance to write one time in their lifetime.
I can't get it out of my head that there's something else going on, some thing they're not telling us. Looking forward to Obama's speech Tuesday.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Good insights all.
I just had a thought, so I wanted to make a pre-emptive suggestion. I created two threads, one about the war, its impact, and nature; the other about afghanistan, its culture and people. I just wanted to try to keep these two ideas separate. Alternate ideas to the war proposed here are good. I also posted some questions to Niki, should she have time.
Oh, and Nik,
I'm not dodging the topic on the other thread, that thread was created for a specific topic, which I'm interested in. I am dodging an argument, which I always do. Opinions differ, that's life. I'm just interested in new ideas. I tend to ignore opinions, which may be why Pirate News' posts don't bother me: When I get to the part that's pure opinion, I skim or skip. I'll form my own opinion from the facts, an I assume others will do the same. I don't have all the facts and can't hope to, but I can have more than I did. For instance, Karzai controlling the majority of Kabul is news to me. Since it's more recent than the article I read, I''ll accept it until I have time to research it further. (I fully expect the Karzai govt. to fall. I kinda feel bad for the guy, since when it does, he is not likely to survive.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Thanks Niki. It's hard to believe this is a place that we need to send more troops to.
Dexter Filkin's book "The Forever War" is about Iraq and Afghanistan. It is one of the most compelling books I've ever read. I think it's the kind of book that a journalist hopes they are lucky enough to have a chance to write one time in their lifetime.
I can't get it out of my head that there's something else going on, some thing they're not telling us. Looking forward to Obama's speech Tuesday.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
Another interesting book, that I have just started to reread is " The Hidden War" by Artyom Borovik
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-War-Russian-Journalists-Afghanistan/dp/08
0213775X
While its focus is on Soviet troops, the parallels of fighting the same people, in the same country, with similar enough tactics and the effects on the troops trying to understand what and why is very interesting...
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Good insights all.
I just had a thought, so I wanted to make a pre-emptive suggestion. I created two threads, one about the war, its impact, and nature; the other about afghanistan, its culture and people. I just wanted to try to keep these two ideas separate. Alternate ideas to the war proposed here are good. I also posted some questions to Niki, should she have time.
Oh, and Nik,
I'm not dodging the topic on the other thread, that thread was created for a specific topic, which I'm interested in. I am dodging an argument, which I always do. Opinions differ, that's life. I'm just interested in new ideas. I tend to ignore opinions, which may be why Pirate News' posts don't bother me: When I get to the part that's pure opinion, I skim or skip. I'll form my own opinion from the facts, an I assume others will do the same. I don't have all the facts and can't hope to, but I can have more than I did. For instance, Karzai controlling the majority of Kabul is news to me. Since it's more recent than the article I read, I''ll accept it until I have time to research it further. (I fully expect the Karzai govt. to fall. I kinda feel bad for the guy, since when it does, he is not likely to survive.)
Likely wind up like Diem,... but the guy has bought his own bullet
the real question is what next
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Niki,
In one of our posts you refered to a scene from Lawrence of Arabia...
I was wondering if you had seen this movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099356/
A Dangerous Man: Lawrence After Arabia
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Thanks Niki. It's hard to believe this is a place that we need to send more troops to.
Dexter Filkin's book "The Forever War" is about Iraq and Afghanistan. It is one of the most compelling books I've ever read. I think it's the kind of book that a journalist hopes they are lucky enough to have a chance to write one time in their lifetime.
I can't get it out of my head that there's something else going on, some thing they're not telling us. Looking forward to Obama's speech Tuesday.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
Another interesting book, that I have just started to reread is " The Hidden War" by Artyom Borovik
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-War-Russian-Journalists-Afghanistan/dp/08
0213775X
While its focus is on Soviet troops, the parallels of fighting the same people, in the same country, with similar enough tactics and the effects on the troops trying to understand what and why is very interesting...
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
Another worthwhile book, introduced to me by a co-worker who is a John Birch Society member, is
Charlie Wilson's War
the inspiration for the movie of the same title. The movie is fun and interesting, and a fair record of the events, but doesn't really provide much insight into the situation . Wonderful performance by Philip Seymour Hoffman, though.
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Another source I like is columnist Eric Margolis...
read a few of his books and wow, amazing his connections... early in his career he toured Afghanistan during the Soviet War... in the hills with the Afghans.
One of his storys is he was given a guide to cross over from Pakistan, a young guy who was on a rest leave... because they were worried someone would recognize him. I guess his job was to walk around Kandahar until he found a smallish group of Russian soldiers.. he would then get close, pull a pistol, blaze away then run... How many have you killed? he asked oh 60-70 I think the guys says... yikes
http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/the-pot-calls-the-k
ettle-black.aspx
here is one about corruption and what he thinks will happen next
and his book American Raj is quite interesting too
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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That is all you need to know. Or we'll Pat Tillman your ass.
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I'm not having a lot of doubt on John's sanity here, but war on the war thread? Nvmnd, carry on.
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Niki.
I was wondering if you had any insight into whether folks in Afghanistan consider themselves as belonging to an Afghani nation, or mostly as belonging to their particular tribe, clan, group, etc.? maybe it'd work just as well to split it up?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Another source I like is columnist Eric Margolis...
read a few of his books and wow, amazing his connections... early in his career he toured Afghanistan during the Soviet War... in the hills with the Afghans.
http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/the-pot-calls-the-k
ettle-black.aspx
here is one about corruption and what he thinks will happen next
Oh, wow, that's goooood, painful and good - looking forward to reading more from him.
It makes me feel like I've come full circle though, back to where I was before I took part in any thread discussions here. Politics: It's pointless to follow it since there's nothing I can do with that knowledge other than to look informed in social situations - that's just pretentious and vain. Better to spend the time learning a new language ...
More from Margolis:
http://www.ericmargolis.com/media_video.aspx
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Niki- thanks. Busy now, but will reply later.
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Geezer,
good question.
I'd like to add Pakistan to that.
The indo-aryan civilization and associated ethnic groups really end abruptly at the banks of the Indus River, and everything to the west of that is in essence "Persia," but some of that land was randomly denoted "Pakistan" by Britain. How do Afghans feel about tribes on the Pakistani said also, not to mention the former soviet republics, or Iran?
Niki,
Geezer asked a good question above, I thought I might add to that, and also mention, assume anything posted here is addressed to you unless it's obviously not.
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Wow, I'm overwhelmed. I never expected this much interet. Thank you guys for reading and wanting to know more; so many questions! All this is one more reason I love this place; SMART people and curious ones, that's so special today.
I can't answer your questions adequately with what knowledge I have and without those friends I have to talk to who know the current situation. I'll have to take some time and talk to a couple of Afghan friends before I can respond properly; I'll spend the day doing so and write a proper response later today.
It's so important to me that Americans understand, and I've always felt that each person I can give a better understanding to is a small step forward; perhaps they'll talk to another. It's about all I can do for the people of Afghanistan, aside from financial contributions to this or that group, and my love for the people makes it more than worth taking the time to do that.
I have several resources beyond my friends and my knowledge of how it was "back then". Among them is something I stumbled across purely by accident which has been a real joy; there is a website put up by people who went to the same school I did in Kabul, the American International School of Kabul. Some of them return to Kabul (despite the situation) annually, and they're well versed in the current situation. I'm one of the three people who were there as long ago, so more recent members know more about more current events. So I'll go there as well and ask some of your questions.
Thank you again for your interest, I'll be back with hopefully as cogent answers as questions you've provided.
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Bear in mind that what I know comes from the Afghan friends I have here, from their relatives and friends still living there, and from my time there--I'm told many of the things I experienced then have changed little in the intervening years, so are still relevant. Beyond that, on the larger, geopolitical level, I am ignorant. Some of the younger Afghans I know only know of Afghanistan from their families, who laud the day of the shah to the sky, so their knowledge reflects that. It would take a while for anyone to get anything from family still living in Afghanistan. Better information would come from the folks at AISK, but it’s Sunday and nobody’s responded to my post yet there.Quote:
Yes, Geezer, you got it; their culture is so dramatically different from ours, that it’s hard to grasp. Iraq and Iran are extremely modern in comparison, tho’ much has changed in the urban environment. Kabul is much more like the cities in Iraq and Iran nowadays, tho’ still has a long way to go to catch up with India, etc. But the MENTALITY, which was unchanged for thousands of years, takes a long time to get past.
Pretty extreme "over and over" with the Afganis, it seems to me.Quote:
The population of Afghanistan is divided into a wide variety of ethnic groups. Because a systematic census has not been held in the country in decades, exact figures about the size and composition of the various ethnic groups are not available. Therefore most figures are approximations only. Best guess as of 2009 is that they’re relatively evenly divided between Pushtun and Tajik, maybe 5% more Pushtun, and roughly 25% made up of 6-10 other ethnicities.
I was wondering if you had any insight into whether folks in Afghanistan consider themselves as belonging to an Afghani nation, or mostly as belonging to their particular tribe, clan, group, etc.? maybe it'd work just as well to split it up?
They display pride in their religion, country, ancestry, high regard for personal honor, clan loyalty, readiness to carry and use arms to settle disputes and above all, their independence. That doesn’t make for great cohesiveness, and it’s never really been “cohesive”. Distances between tribes/villages, as I said, makes for little intermingling, so groups tend to continue their cultures separately. Yes, they all consider themselves Afghan, strongly so, but within that nomenclature, very much loyal to THEIR form of “Afghan”. Breaking it up would be a real mess; tho’ some areas are mostly one or another, trying to decide which area was “mostly” one thing or another might actually be impossible. Their strong sense of independence from the outside world is first and foremost.
The tribal system, which orders the life of most people outside metropolitan areas, is potent in political terms. Men feel a fierce loyalty to their own tribe, such that, if called upon, they would assemble in arms under the tribal chiefs and local clan leaders. Some say, and I agree, that the tribal system is the best way of organizing large groups of people in a country that is geographically difficult, and in a society that, from a materialistic point of view, has an uncomplicated lifestyle. That pretty much describes Afghanistan. Like I said, Shah Zahir knew this and tended to more “unite” the country and deal with the outside world, as well as his own area around Kabul, than try to govern the whole country. In rural areas, Karzai is a joke for the most part—DT has spoken to that pretty fully.
By the way, something that has always pissed me off with newscasters and pundits: “Afghani” is the currency, “Afghan” are the people. Our news media sometimes doesn’t even learn the small things in reporting on other countries, which bugs me. I so often hear them mispronounce or misidentify, etc., it helps remind me that they’re only talking heads!
Fem, I kinda figured you were educated on a lot of this, and yes, I have always found it inexorably sad that Americans care so little about understanding other cultures
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Police officer Jack McLamb reported on his radio show today that Obama's Afghan heroin production has increased 3,000% since the US/UK invasion.
http://republicbroadcasting.org
I stand corrected on my old news of 1,400%.
Can't allow those pesky Taliban to stop opium farming.
Where would CIA get its funding then?
Quote:
United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime
21 October 2009 - Afghanistan has a monopoly on global opium poppy cultivation (92 per cent), the raw material for the world's deadliest drug - heroin. The size and impact of the opium economy in Afghanistan were documented in the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2009 published in September.
In a new report, Addiction, Crime and Insurgency: The Transnational Threat of Afghan Opium, UNODC shows the devastating consequences that the 900 tons of opium and 375 tons of heroin that are trafficked from Afghanistan every year have on the health and security of countries along the Balkan and Eurasian drug routes, of countries in Europe, of China, India and the Russian Federation.
It documents how the world's deadliest drug has created a market worth $65 billion, catering to 15 million addicts, causing up to 100,000 deaths per year, spreading HIV at an unprecedented rate and, not least, funding criminal groups, insurgents and terrorists.
The report's findings reveal a number of anomalies. One such anomaly is the incongruence between the large quantities of heroin being consumed and the small quantities being seized. Approximately 40 per cent of Afghanistan's heroin is trafficked each year into Pakistan, about 30 per cent enters the Islamic Republic of Iran and 25 per cent flows into Central Asia. In Afghanistan, corruption, lawlessness and uncontrolled borders result in an insignificant 2 per cent interception rate of the opiates produced, compared to 36 per cent in Colombia for cocaine.
An anomalous but widely known fact is that, since 2006, much more opium has been produced in Afghanistan than is consumed worldwide. The report confirms that there is now an unaccounted stockpile of 12,000 tons of Afghan opium - enough to satisfy more than two years of world heroin demand. "With so much opium in evil hands, the need to locate and destroy these stocks is more urgent than ever", said Mr. Costa.
www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2009/October/unodc-reveals-devastatin
g-impact-of-afghan-opium.html
Pentagon pays the opium farmers $30/lb, CIA sells it retail for. But most US heroin is Mexican Black Tar, thanks to Obama's wide-open invisible border via NAFTA and North Amerikan Soviet Union at SPP.gov.
Quote:
Opium-poppy cultivation fell 22 percent to 123,000 hectares (303,810 acres) as average farm-gate prices for dry opium dropped 34 percent to $64 a kilogram (2.2 pounds), the UN Office on Drugs and Crime said in a report. The 2009 harvest yielded up to 6,900 metric tons (7,605 tons), enough to make about 1,000 metric tons of heroin, the Vienna-based UNODC said.
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aAshbP0J.JFE
Opium $30/lb wholesale
Heroin $90,000/lb retail
------------------------
300,000% Markup = 99.97% Net Profit for CIA & MI6
The 12,000 ton "surpus" explains why CIA/MI6/UN wants their Afghan production reduced, a tiny bit, to keep retain prices and profit high. Hence the fake "war on opium farmers", as US troops guard the farmers while they harvest their crops.
Opium Wars of the British Empire and Yale Skull & Bones to force the world to become its heroin addicts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
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Oh, go away, PN...there's another thread about the politics, etc., of the war...why don't you go play there? McLamb is almost as much of a crazy as you are, in my opinion, and I wouldn't trust him or anything he says as far as I could throw him. What you posted has nothing to do with this thread and belongs over there, as DT said.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Police officer Jack McLamb reported on his radio show today that Obama's Afghan heroin production has increased 3,000% since the US/UK invasion.
http://republicbroadcasting.org
I stand corrected on my old news of 1,400%.
Can't allow those pesky Taliban to stop opium farming.
Where would CIA get its funding then?
As long as your smoking it John, they will always have an export crop...
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Funny how CIA agent and teen cocaine dealer Obama plans to legalize opium in Afghanistan.
http://cria-online.org/3_6.html
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, go away, PN...there's another thread about the politics, etc., of the war...why don't you go play there? McLamb is almost as much of a crazy as you are, in my opinion, and I wouldn't trust him or anything he says as far as I could throw him. What you posted has nothing to do with this thread and belongs over there, as DT said.
Officer McLamb was Phoenix PD Intelligence Division, and "the most-decorated cop in PPD history" BTW. Today he's calling for the immediate arrest of Hussein Obama Soetoro, but not calling for military coup d'etat and martial law to arrest Obama like billionair sockpuppet opium addict Rusty "Rush" Limbaugh.
Why does your post sound like you're salivating over Afghan a$$et$?
Why does your post read like CIA'S WORLD FACT BOOK?
www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html
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Quote:
but we DID invade there, and I think that carries a certain responsibility.
Yep, as well as a geopolitical interest in the stability of the country. At the same time though, I do think we need a plan that involves an exit strategy. It'll be interesting to see what Obama announces in his upcoming speech.
What were your thoughts Niki during the Afghan election and run-off? Did you or the Afghan people you know, have any hopes that real progress towards working democracy might be made? Was there anything promising about the unsuccessful challenger, Dr Abdullah Abdullah, who was reportedly cheated out of a fair election?
Heads should roll
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I want to hear from the Afghan citizens who are members of this forum.
After 8 years and $1-trillion of invasion, occupation and democracy, I'm sure every citizen now has internet access and gold-plated toilet seats.
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Not that many Afghans have access to news from outside the country, but Niki, how do you think people there would react to the Germans recent resignations over their unfortunate airstrike...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,663820,00.html
the Defense Minister, the deputy defense minister, the head of the German Military all have resigned
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Again, responding as I read... lots of interesting stuff:
Quote:
The PDPA apparently did a lot of good stuff too. They moved to permit freedom of religion and carried out an ambitious land reform, waiving farmers' debts countrywide. They also made a number of statements on women’s rights...
Without looking it up, I'm going to make some spot guesses, and then guess an Afghan reaction:
1. People's democratic is of course an international codeword for communist, following the rule "all advertising is a lie."
2. Communists tend to assimilate cultural traditions into a socially engineered mechanical form of universal equality.
3. I'm guessing that the Afghans are going to hate this idea. Probably more than the individual issues, the massive uniform movement towards a secular western "modern" society will get mixed reviews among the young, and prompt civil war among the general population.
4. This idea probably came from China.
Now I'll go look it up.
okay,
1.. check.
2. check
3. check
4.. Duh. Wrong. It came from Russia. Sorry, I thought we were back in some other decade... Oh, wait, we were. 1965. Now that's odd. Usually "people's democratic" is a good indication of China, and "socialist republic" means russia. This is some time before the Soviet-Afghan war. but it does go on through it.
Okay, continue...
Quote:
Then of course, in ’79, the Russians came and destroyed most of the progress and the country.
This also seems at odds with itself If the PDPA *was* russian communist, about which I seem to see no debate, then it was the loss of control that prompted the russian invasion: I seem to remember an incident involving the slaughter of 2,000 or so Russian citizens by an anti-PDPA group. Don't quote me on this, but my memory is thinking this was northern alliance. I don't have the story... searching
Here's a motherlode of history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Democratic_Party_of_Afghanista
n
Here's more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
I think Brzezinski's comment is very telling.
Moving on...
As an absolute non-defender of the USSR, I feel some information is lacking here:
Wiki agrees with your casualty figures. I know that no one has a kill ratio like that, so can we attribute this to anything? To be credible, there has to be a cause:
1. Civil war and tribal conflicts
2. Widespread famine or disease
3. Opportunistic genocide by some local group.
Just the reality that 100,000 soviets even with 300,000 allies can't kill 2 million afghans. Actually, they can't approach anywhere near those figures without suffering truly massive casualties. US involvement makes matters worse, but something else is needed to justify these figures.
Quote:
Enter the Taliban, and by the end 2000 they controlled 95% of the country.
:?
Sorry, that's a dubious me. 45,000 of them? I get that they controlled Kabul, but the thought of 95% of the country, esp. given the history of regional conflicts, them and what army? If they had influence, it had to be something other than force, because they simply don't have enough force.
I tend to put these sorts of notions down into what I call the Cortez factor: Cortez attacked and defeated Montezuma II after years of urging by the Meshiko, or Mexicans as we now call them, and at the threat of excommunication and death by the crown of spain. But when he did it, he did it with 500 spaniards with guns, horses and ships.
Most histories end there.
The significant factors missing are that Cortez had an army of 300,000 or so Mexicans, against 15-30,000 Aztecs. It was a rout. That, and the fact that Montezuma had practically zero local support outside of his own army (read: Montezuma is Aztec for George W Bush) But I digress. Many histories have missing pieces like this.
This missing dynamic grows in importance with the telling. The history, of course, we mostly know, but the Taliban, who now number around 25,000, according to wiki and also the DoD, in a country with 3 millio
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" Still, a radical admission for someone who you fought a war against. I actually find this in the rest of the world: They demonize the enemy less. Massive carnage situations like yugoslavia, and they can sit down and debate it in a more civilized way than americans can debate democrat vs. republican policies (there's a difference?) "
Oh no.... One of the places I worked at, we had quite a few Croatians, and about a half dozen Serbians... things became bad enough they transfered all the Serbians to a different building...
Nothing civilized at all, might you most of these guys actually fought, perhaps less involved folk would be less emotional
Couple of things I'd like to add, Niki can correct me if I'm wrong
One of the reason the Taliban are viewed the way they are is because of the lengths they go to in order to keep foreign influences out... but look at what foreign influences have brought to Afghans, for every bit of progress an equal of greater amount of suffering. Not saying I agree with it, but can understand the view, and post 2001 hasn't exactly changed that model
The second involves why the Soviets went into Afghanistan, Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski actually started that war by arming and funding Muslim extremists in Afghanistan, in the hopes that any successes those movements had against the shaky communist leaning government would spread into the southern Soviet republics and destabilize the entire USSR into some type of civil war
http://terrorism.about.com/b/2007/01/02/al-qaeda-and-the-us-a-longer-r
elationship-than-we-might-have-thought.htm
of the Soviet invasion Alexander Haig said
" Between the Soviet Unoin and Afghanistan there is only the thin line of the Amu Darya. Because of this any successful Islamic movement at your southern borders will inevitably influence the Soviet Muslim republics. I can see Brezhnevs logic "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbuddin_Hekmatyar
this guy said in 1987 " If the mujahedin persistently continue to fight, the day will soon come when the occupied lands of Soviet Central Asia will be liberated "
So two things really, the Soviets were faced with a nightmare situation. The US was at least partially responsible in provoking the original Soviet invasion...
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Gino,
1. Ah. We've had different experiences. I was in Slovenia, actually a few times. There's none of this in Slovenia, even among those who fought in croatia et al, but perhaps that's self-selecting. They ended up in Slovenia by avoiding conflict.
2. & 3. I see a real problem with long posts. I made very similar points, and agree, but it got lost in the shuffle
2. I just said Bin Laden held that, you could see why, didn't make him right, but by his experience, but yes, the Taliban feel the same, as undoubtedly do most Afghans. The issue here is who can make the argument that they are the ones who will bring about this change. This was a big problem for the sandinistas: The people liked their ideas, but did not like the fact that they, sometimes unwittingly, brought foreign intervention.
3. I just quoted Brzezinski saying this. It's also in the wikipedia link, but yes excellent points, all.
I need to work on communications skills.
I want to clarify one point that I was trying to make and took too long to do, and that's about subsistence lifestyle, which I think Niki took as an attack of Afghans, it's not. It's a comment on another myth: "these people have lived this way on this land for thousands of years" We know this both is and isn't true, but the story can be told much better in pictures, these ones from africa:
These people have always lived on this land, right?
No, they havent. They've lived near by.
They used to live here
Then they lived here
Then they thought they'd try here
They're almost done here
And moving in here
and after they're done, they'll try here
Someday, they'll try here
When they started, their home looked like this
We know that from satellite photos, and from the evidence everywhere, we can tell where they've been:
They need better solutions
A little ecological perspective, and yes, we *can* destroy the planet, but only piece by piece. Somethings gotta give. Don't let it be the Earth, for the betterment of the planet, and the people on it.
Peace out.
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I made mention of this discussion, such points of it as I understand, to one of my unofficial contacts over there, and they pointed out to me that the villages generally don't *care* who is in charge so long as they are left unmolested, which is what they primarily desire - life goes on, much as it always has, and to the minds of those involved, always will, right ?
So saying that the Taliban "controlled" them is kind of a misnomer, since their response to the Taliban, and *any* other interloper, is prettymuch thus.
"If I bend knee to you, will you go away ?"
Being that it's pointless to tax them, and they have nothing much to take, that is prettymuch how it goes - they don't care much about anything beyond the borders of their own village and lands, but you start droppin bombs willy nilly and kill off some of their people, they tend to hold *serious* grudges about it, especially if Badal is invoked.
But essentially, most of em just want to be left the hell alone, which of course sets them at odds worse against any "organized" empire like the Soviets, or us, cause such empires are damn nitpicky, and will spend ridiculous effort to try and civilize/convert/tax/etc them, which just annoys them and they can wait you out for generations, cause in their mind, sooner or later YOU will be gone, but their village is still gonna be there, it's how they think.
Blow up their village though, and you're lookin down the barrel of a REAL problem.
As for the urbanites, I dunno so much, most of the contacts I have are girls who have fled to RAWAs sanctuaries and safe houses - which now that you know something about that world, gives you an idea of just how tough, mentally and physically, these girls are.
While I do wholly support RAWA, personally I am more of a mind that the solution to old set-in-their-ways hardheads who value women as baby factories isn't exposing and educating them, being that they won't listen and the rest of the world wouldn't care if they did know, but it's not my decision to make.
Unfortunately for the USA, History supports them, would be conquers come and go, but still, afghanistan is afghanistan.
-Frem
Reccommended Viewing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(1988_film) <-Add manually.
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Yes, I agree 100% that we need to get out, KPO; I wish we could leave people to help the country recover, but not military—the trouble is, military has to be around to protect the others, and I don’t know what Karzai or the Taliban would do to subvert their efforts, and it’s all so complex, I can’t even guess.
Dr. Abdullah (whether it’s two Abdullahs or one is unclear) was senior advisor to Masoud in the 1980s, and apparently became his successor. Masoud seemed to be more promising, but Abdullah had a certain amount of promise, too. He was foreign minister in the Karzai administration for a time, but when the Northern Alliance members who were in that government were ousted, he was tossed out too. That was a shame; the Northern Alliance never gave up fighting the Taliban; if we’d had THEM as allies all along, who knows?
Abdullah isn’t as charismatic as Karzai was, but the Afghans have completely lost faith in Karzai because of the corruption and his (as Abdullah says) “disconnect between his government and the people. I don’t know if he would have been better or not…the information I get is conflicting; some liked him, some thought he’d just be “a new boss, just like the other boss”. Beyond that, I don’t know much.
Gino, the Afghans really don’t pay attention to stuff outside Afghanistan. Most of them consider all the foreigners fighting there as “American” unless they actually meet them, and even then attribute whatever they do to the American interference. I’m sure there are politically savvy intellectuals who pay attention, but none of my friends are such, and the general attitude is that America is behind everything happening.
DT, your post is way too long for me to respond to in kind, it would take ages. And remember, what’s I’ve been talking about is Afghanistan and it’s people and culture; my knowledge of politics, and the interest in same of the Afghans, is limited. I had to look a lot of stuff up to answer the questions posed yesterday, to fill in what I, nor my Afghan friends, didn’t know, So I’ll just try to hit the highlights:
Yes, the PDPA was a communist organization. Per Wikipedia: Quote:
From what I’ve found and been told, your # is only partially true.
The government promoted state atheism. Men were obliged to cut of their beards, women were not allowed to wear the burqa any longer, and most of the mosques were placed off limits at the start of the regime. The mosques re-opend in the 80s, because the party tried to win more supporters. The government also carried out a new land reform among others.
When the PDPA rose to power in Afghanistan they moved to prohibit traditional practices which were deemed feudal by the party. They banned bride price and forced marriage among others and the minimum age for marriage was raised. They also stressed the importance of education in Afghanistan. The government stressed education for both women and men, they also set up literacy programmes in the country. These new reforms were not well-received by the majority of the Afghan population (particularly in rural areas). As many saw it was un-Islamic and was seen as a forced approach to western culture in Afghan society as many tribal societies in Afghanistan tend to be conservative.Quote:
Most urban Afghans like the idea of modernization; they did when we were there and I’m told that didn’t change. Remember what I get is from people originating in Kabul, Kandahar and other urban areas. From what I read, it was the villages which, as it said, are more conservative, didn’t like the idea, nor the idea of what they considered “outsiders” deciding how they should live. There was no civil war among the general population; remember, the villages and cities were separated by
I'm guessing that the Afghans are going to hate this idea. Probably more than the individual issues, the massive uniform movement towards a secular western "modern" society will get mixed reviews among the young, and prompt civil war among the general population.
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Niki
Your post is incredible in length. Interesting stuff in there, it is a haystack though...
Quote:
Who here doesn’t make poster-specific responses?!?!
ya missed the part where i said we had recent summit thread on this and decided collectively not to do it. Since then, everyone has been very good about this.
You missed "partisan wars" when (no offense intened guys) rap, geezer, hero would line up on one side, and sig, kathy, citizen on the other, and many responses were poster based. I think that no one here wants that to return, so when I see something that's poster-specific, I just try to remind people that we essentially agreed not to do this. It wasn't my idea, I forget whose it was, but the thread is in the archives.
As for ecology, speaking from a position of science, sure, some ecosystems are more fragile than others. There still in no natural desert. Nature abhors a vacuum, and sorry, even if it were up to debate, which I think it's not, it's definitely off topic here.
The fact of the matter is that afghanistan clearly *does* need eco-coping technology in the way that africa does, and that this automatically becomes a major issue which pre-empts any political concerns. (I'll even support the commies if they would do it, yes, I do know reason: Anything beat the "everybody dies" solution.)
This isn't politics, it's just an observation, I've been researching as you post, and found some stuff, that was sort of the "look up in the sky and happen to notice a comet headed for earth" sort of thing that you just have to mention...
These issues have been discussed very widely by africans and they have extensive programs to try to deal with them, I just thought those would be applicable to afghanistan, given what I read. Curiously, they share something in common with the SW US: High elevation of the base plains.
But back to the people and culture, I agree. I appreciate the time you've taken. I had the feeling that there were a number of people here that were interested.
In the interests of saving time, much of the historical details you posted were in the wikipedia entries, which I linked to in an earlier post. Yes, you were right on the money on just about all of it, but if it takes you a long time to write out a history that is already written, you can save yourself a little work by linking it.
You see some people here are very used to doing that, I wish I were myself. It's something like this:
The PDP (link) was losing support, and the russians lent them a hand, which lead to the soviet invasion (link) etc.
Not that the above is a statement about afghanistan or comprehensive, just that it's a time saver for you, and then if there's something in the link which you think is inaccurate, you can just state that, like
The rise of the taliban didn't quite happen the way (link), because there was an additional issue of xyz.
Just a suggestion to make it less taxing on yourself, something I'm trying to learn to do myself.
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Could you tell me where this summit thread is so I can read it please? I come almost daily, so I'm not sure how I missed it, but as fast as things move here, maybe I did. Thanx.
I do usually cut and paste, but sometimes I put it in my own words if it's something I want to add to or word it shorter. I also insert cut and pastes from other sources besides Wikipedia when I find something additional, if I already know the facts are accurate. Also I find it easier to read that way myself than going to links. Just FYI
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It's in the archives, I don't remember the title, maybe the original poster does. I'm not entirely sure that it was this year, but it wasn't too long ago. It could be that you missed it, but it also might have just predated you.
I have to say that myself I had some trouble being objective to Wulf which I feel bad about. I did try to encourage him to post on other subjects than race or 2nd amendment, and when he did, I answered them objectively, but when he posted on race or 2a, I did sort of *roll eyes* here we go again. So sure, everyone slips once in a while, but it's a goal to shoot for.
Mike just made a comment in a separate thread to the effect of "next election cycle" watch things flare up again. But so far it's been a better way to communicate, it was a good idea whoever had it. I find, even if it's someone I have issues with or completely disagree with, it help, because there's less hostility, and I think that actually has brought some old members back to the forum who weren't posting for a long time.
So, true, some people can continuously say things that you object to, but then, usually it's best to let it slide.
If I can think of a phrase posted...
First google attempt returned a thread by Pizmo on Jan 9, but that wasn't the one. It might have been Pizmo's thread...
Okay, google is being useless on the exact phrase match. I think they don't index them all.
Side issue:
This is just the sort of thing that prompts dicussions like the recent one about thread titles. Before that, thread titles were pretty random, and I'm not about to go through the last year of threads to see which one it might be, it probably doesn't have a descriptive name. All I'm finding on my google searches is references to it, but no link. It was a similar sort of thread to the one we just had about thread titles.
Anyway, it was a mutual agreement, but of course there are no rules here, people can troll endlessly if they want to, but thing did calm down a lot after that.
I'll give one scan through the archives
It's hopeless. A large organizational nightmare and 1000s of threads and I'm only back to mid november, nondescript titles, subject to change without notice. I just found other references to it, to the effect of "I do respond to the post" and "I try to respond to the post, but he always posts the same" so those comments clearly came after the original thread.
Anyway, if you find it let me know, but that was the general idea. I suggest trying it, leads to a more peaceful existence, and communication.
Oh, re mike's comment, cross thread here, I think that it was more of a madhouse at election time, but it had been a madhouse during much of the bush years. People have mellowed out a lot now.
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Thanks, Niki.
Thing is, I know more about that backwater stump of a country than I ever really wanted to, since I am involved in more machinations related to it than I am willing discuss here or anywhere else, and the reason for the latter is simple.
Sooner or later, as a sop to whatever puppet regime we try to prop up, the State Dept is going to get around to classing RAWA as a terrorist organisation, especially should they ever start takin any of my advice - and when that happens a lot of people who meant only the best are gonna fry for it, and I damned sure do not intend to be one of em.
You know what they say about no good deed goin unpunished, yes ?
Anyhows, heavens bless em, those girls could give the Taliban a couple points on stubborn.
They seem to think that if only they could get their message, their plight, out far enough, out wide enough, to many people or the right ones, make the world know - that folk would come to their assistance, and I did not intially have the heart to tell them, but eventually I did.
The world knows, such as it is, and.. they. do. not. care.
It's just that simple.
But of course, they don't wanna hear that, they don't wanna believe that, and so they don't - denying the bloody obvious in a fashion not all that different from the tribal elders who they decry, but it's a waste of time to point that out since it only gets you cussed out in Pashto anyways.
And yeah, they are stubborn as a goddamn donkey, not a ONE of em has ever taken my offer to pave the way into the US for em, they'd rather stay and "fight" the good fight, much good that it's done em so far.
They know all too well that my answer to the problem of jackass village elders is - no elders, no problem, yes ?
And for all that they do not care for what I say, they listen despite themselves - stubborn they are, stupid they ain't, and that's why someday those fundamentalist assholes are in a heap of trouble.
See, they do not want to kick off a social revolution with a bloody massacre, despite that being historically the ONLY way such changes ever have or ever will come to afghanistan, for a fact, and I would be more than happy to be proven wrong about it, but I kinda doubt it, you know ?
It wouldn't take half the effort outsiders would think, since logistically these villages have no way to support each other beyond throwing in with the roving warlords of what we mistakenly call the "northern alliance" and frankly they'd rather eat sand, shit bricks and die than do so, life ain't worth enough around there to put up with crap that would make it more miserable.
And they have ZERO air power or transport, none whatever, which under the right circumstances if they got their shit together, would be available to RAWA once a credible effort to clean house got rolling, and ground transport along with the fuel to use it would come right from the start, which would treble in effectiveness once the nomads (kuchies ?) saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to play along and be on the dishing end instead of the receiving end cause there is a little bad blood goin on there and it wouldn't take a whole lot - besides which they have an AWFUL dark sense of humor and would get a good belly laugh out of putting one in the ear of those asshats, all the while also laughing at their own folly in being something of traditional asshats themselves, albeit more tolerant ones, since all they really ask for acceptance is that you keep up and contribute your fair share of resources or effort - they'd not be happy with outside help, but once they saw which way that wind was blowin, well, "inshallah", right ?
Start from one end, and work to the other, systematically wiping out every male over the age of ten and burning the chadri? in a heap thereafter, and on to the next, and the next - ignore the cities since that isn't and never has been, where the real power in afghanistan lies, again, once they see which way the wind is blowin...
And a dark wind it would be, since bloody massacre is, unfortunately, the acce
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What did the Russians want with this place 30 years ago? What was their goal?
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Jong,
Russia has long had ambitions on Iran, The history of the two is actually interlinked: Parthians and Scythians are split more on a latitude than anything else. With the takeover of numerous parts of the former Persian Empire and a previous invasion of Iran, this is all fairly straightforward.
Immediately, they were in Afghanistan to prop up a collapsing communist govt.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Jong,
Russia has long had ambitions on Iran, The history of the two is actually interlinked: Parthians and Scythians are split more on a latitude than anything else. With the takeover of numerous parts of the former Persian Empire and a previous invasion of Iran, this is all fairly straightforward.
Immediately, they were in Afghanistan to prop up a collapsing communist govt.
Thanks for that Dream. When the US supplied weapons to the Mujahdeen to fight the Russians, they were not radical Muslims intent on Jihad against the West ( I saw Charlie Wilson's War ), so when did the fundamentalist Muslims, aka Taliban, arrive? And how long was the Taliban in power before Al Qaida found a home there? If we pull out of Afghanistan and the Taliban take power again, will this be a real threat to anyone?
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Lovely piece on the current military situation in Afghanistan, and the military future, in Slate this morning.
http://www.slate.com/id/2236148/
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JS, back when I was there it was also to keep a safe buffer country, they weren't out for conquest, just matched us in giving things to Afghanistan to keep us from getting a foothold...this was during the Cold War. Later it was as DT answered for me; to prop up a failing Communist government; again partly to ensure THEIR control of the country as opposed to anyone else's. Remember, the Afghan government INVITED them in, idiots—when we were there, the Shah knew who and what Russia was and never would have done so; he just played them against us, and kept our presence and friendship as a bulwark against an invasion. Everyone then knew one would come sooner or later.
I can't say whether DT's estimation is the whole answer or what I believe, but I don't think the initial invasion was a straightforward intent on conquest in the entire region, as they hadn’t made any attempt at occupying Afghanistan in all its previous history, or whether it was just because they saw their buffer state slipping out of their control. Tho’ he posted some time ago that “assume anything posted here is addressed to you unless it's obviously not”, he has information about Afghanistan that I don’t possess and our views differ on some things.
As to your questions, here's a brief history of the Taliban and Al Qaeda's beginnings and timeline, taken from several sources.
The mujahideen, various loosely-aligned Afghan opposition groups, initially fought against the incumbent pro-Soviet Afghan government during the late 1970s. At the Afghan government's request, the Soviet Union became involved in the war. The mujahideen insurgency then fought against the Soviet and Afghan government troops during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. After the Soviet Union pulled out of the conflict in the late 1980s the mujahideen fought each other in the subsequent Afghan Civil War.
The United States viewed the conflict in Afghanistan, with the Afghan Marxists and allied Soviet troops on one side and the native Afghan mujahideen on the other, as a blatant case of Soviet expansionism and aggression. The U.S. channelled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the native Afghan mujahedeen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone, as you know from Charlie’s War. The Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. With mujahedeen leaders unable to agree on a structure for governance, chaos ensued, with constantly reorganizing alliances fighting for control of ill-defined territories, leaving the country devastated. Toward the end of the Soviet military mission in Afghanistan, some mujahedeen wanted to expand their operations to include Islamist struggles in other parts of the world, such as Israel and Kashmir. A number of overlapping and interrelated organizations were formed to further those aspirations. One of these was the organization that would eventually be called al-Qaeda. So they were there first; the Taliban came later.
There was no such thing as a Taliban until the Afghanistan’s civil war in the wake of Soviet troops’ withdrawal in 1989. Hundreds of thousands of youths, who knew nothing of life but the bombings that destroyed their homes and drove them to seek refuge over the border, were being raised to hate and to fight, “in the spirit of Jihad,” a “holy war” that would restore Afghanistan to its people. They were schooled in Pakistan’s madrassas, religious schools which, in this case, were encouraged and financed by Pakistani and Saudi authorities to develop militantly inclined Islamists. Pakistan consciously intended to use the madrassas’ militants as leverage in its attempt to control Afghanistan. The Taliban’s most original aims were to “restore peace, disarm the population, enforce Sharia law and defend the integrity and Islamic character of Afghanistan.
The Pakistani intelligence ISI, the Pakistani military and Benazir Bhutto, who was prime minister of Pakistan during the Taliban’s most politically and militarily formative
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Frem, I fully understand your frustration with RAWA, and I agree with your assessment. I work more with the Afghan Women's Mission, an arm of RAWA, which is more geared to the support of health, educational, and other programs for Afghan women. It seems a more viable effort.
DT, thanx for looking for that summit thread, I'm sorry it was such a difficult search. But given it's so far in the past that you couldn't find it, and that everything I've seen since I came here has been filled with people posting to other people personally, not to mention the personal snarking, I don't think it means much to people anymore.
I actually found it interesting that you chided me on it, given all I've seen. To say I'm the only person who does so would be laughable, which I know you didn't, but you seemed to indicate that it has been agreed to by all, which obviously it hasn't. So I'll continue as I have, thank you. I TRY to be civil to everyone and not get dragged into the various firestorms, but I'll express my opinion, personally or otherwise. Maybe you should chide Mike and the others about this more often, perhaps that way things would return to more how you feel they should be. Apologies for my sarcasm, I just found your remarks ironic and, well, personal.
I won't post further about Afghan culture and people unless specifically asked to, as I'm not sure anyone's interested in more at this point. At least hopefully I've given those who were interested a taste of another culture, and I hope that's a good thing.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
JS, back when I was there it was also to keep a safe buffer country, they weren't out for conquest, just matched us in giving things to Afghanistan to keep us from getting a foothold...this was during the Cold War. Later it was as DT answered for me; to prop up a failing Communist government; again partly to ensure THEIR control of the country as opposed to anyone else's. Remember, the Afghan government INVITED them in, idiots—when we were there, the Shah knew who and what Russia was and never would have done so; he just played them against us, and kept our presence and friendship as a bulwark against an invasion. Everyone then knew one would come sooner or later.
I can't say whether DT's estimation is the whole answer or what I believe, but I don't think the initial invasion was a straightforward intent on conquest in the entire region, as they hadn’t made any attempt at occupying Afghanistan in all its previous history, or whether it was just because they saw their buffer state slipping out of their control. Tho’ he posted some time ago that “assume anything posted here is addressed to you unless it's obviously not”, he has information about Afghanistan that I don’t possess and our views differ on some things.
As to your questions, here's a brief history of the Taliban and Al Qaeda's beginnings and timeline, taken from several sources.
The mujahideen, various loosely-aligned Afghan opposition groups, initially fought against the incumbent pro-Soviet Afghan government during the late 1970s. At the Afghan government's request, the Soviet Union became involved in the war. The mujahideen insurgency then fought against the Soviet and Afghan government troops during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. After the Soviet Union pulled out of the conflict in the late 1980s the mujahideen fought each other in the subsequent Afghan Civil War.
The United States viewed the conflict in Afghanistan, with the Afghan Marxists and allied Soviet troops on one side and the native Afghan mujahideen on the other, as a blatant case of Soviet expansionism and aggression. The U.S. channelled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the native Afghan mujahedeen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone, as you know from Charlie’s War. The Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. With mujahedeen leaders unable to agree on a structure for governance, chaos ensued, with constantly reorganizing alliances fighting for control of ill-defined territories, leaving the country devastated. Toward the end of the Soviet military mission in Afghanistan, some mujahedeen wanted to expand their operations to include Islamist struggles in other parts of the world, such as Israel and Kashmir. A number of overlapping and interrelated organizations were formed to further those aspirations. One of these was the organization that would eventually be called al-Qaeda. So they were there first; the Taliban came later.
There was no such thing as a Taliban until the Afghanistan’s civil war in the wake of Soviet troops’ withdrawal in 1989. Hundreds of thousands of youths, who knew nothing of life but the bombings that destroyed their homes and drove them to seek refuge over the border, were being raised to hate and to fight, “in the spirit of Jihad,” a “holy war” that would restore Afghanistan to its people. They were schooled in Pakistan’s madrassas, religious schools which, in this case, were encouraged and financed by Pakistani and Saudi authorities to develop militantly inclined Islamists. Pakistan consciously intended to use the madrassas’ militants as leverage in its attempt to control Afghanistan. The Taliban’s most original aims were to “restore peace, disarm the population, enforce Sharia law and defend the integrity and Islamic character of Afghanistan.
The Pakistani intelligence ISI, the Pakistani military and Benazir Bhutto, who was prime minister of Pakistan during the Taliban’s most politically and militarily formative years (199
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Hoo boy, JS, if you wanted cites, I'd have a heck of a time! ;o) Most of it comes from Wikipedia and my own experiences, but I found things that filled in and expanded on several other places, some at About.com, some at others. The history is pretty easy to trace, it's finding details that took a bit.
I agree about no reason to stay, if you don't care about the Afghans and their country...certainly I don't think there's any threat to the US.
I agree with what you said about Obama, and it is a shame. ALl this has pretty much brought our government to a halt, and while it grinds along slowly at the best of times, I hate to see it hampered even more the way it is currently. I, too, wish there was less of a "bring Obama down, no matter what" mentality, and the extremes to which it has brought people. Humans are strange, politics even stranger!
Thanx for your interest, it heartens me that anyoe is interested in this stuff.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hoo boy, JS, if you wanted cites, I'd have a heck of a time! ;o) Most of it comes from Wikipedia and my own experiences, but I found things that filled in and expanded on several other places, some at About.com, some at others. The history is pretty easy to trace, it's finding details that took a bit.
I agree about no reason to stay, if you don't care about the Afghans and their country...certainly I don't think there's any threat to the US.
I agree with what you said about Obama, and it is a shame. ALl this has pretty much brought our government to a halt, and while it grinds along slowly at the best of times, I hate to see it hampered even more the way it is currently. I, too, wish there was less of a "bring Obama down, no matter what" mentality, and the extremes to which it has brought people. Humans are strange, politics even stranger!
Thanx for your interest, it heartens me that anyoe is interested in this stuff.
Don't kid yourself Niki, most people, including me, cannot write eloquently and interestingly. Your post was terrific. And what's more important now than Afghanistan? On Obama, yeah, I'm just an old softie when it comes to the office of the President, any President. Must be a generational thing I guess. Yeah, I could go on for days about my pre & post-inauguration feelings on Obama, but all that seems to be changing now for some reason. It's hard to tell if he is weak, or if he is being made to look weak. Bush never had as much crap thrown at him, really not until the end of his term, and much was well deserved. After tonite Obama is going to be in need of some support. I will always support my President.
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Niki, here is a couple of BBC articles with local Afghan interviews
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8387684.stm
" I met Hayit Allah pushing a wheelbarrow close to his mud-wall compound. He was an elderly man with a wiry spryness, and still worked in the dusty fields with his four sons.
He told me that the security situation was good close to his village. But he said that just five minutes' drive away, the villages were all Taliban-controlled.
But he was not worried about it, he said, and believed more foreign troops would be a bad idea.
His neighbour Haji Rabat, also a farmer, endorsed this view. He thought that deploying more US forces in Afghanistan would be a big mistake.
"Every time the Americans send more troops they create more problems with us," he said. "The only way to resolve this conflict is to negotiate with the insurgents." "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8389255.stm
It seems that there is some debate on how to proceed with the people interviewed as well, other than what is going on doesn't work very well.
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki
As for ecology, speaking from a position of science, sure, some ecosystems are more fragile than others. There still in no natural desert. Nature abhors a vacuum, and sorry, even if it were up to debate, which I think it's not, it's definitely off topic here.
DT, this is incorrect - there are lots of natural deserts, particularly along the 30 degree latitude belt in both northern and southern hemispheres. The mechanisms are well studied and well understood. They come in 2 forms: rainshadow deserts in which there are mountains to the windward (these can be anywhere, not just at 30 degrees), and climate-belt deserts located at around 30 because the wind patterns are formed by descending dry air at that latitude, that heats up as it descends and picks up what little moisture is available from land. Afghanistan has aspects of both. The same is true for the US Southwest and northern Mexico; both have shadowing mountains and are in the 30's. The western deserts of Peru/Chile and Namibia are pure climate-belt deserts. Afghanistan may have also been damaged by overgrazing (deserts are particularly susceptible to this), but it started as a natural desert at least as long as it's been at that latitude (many tens of millions of years).
And, the habitat in which a people lives makes a great deal of difference to their culture and ways, therefore being much on topic.
perfessergee
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Perf
As usual, I'm not posting in a void of ignorance. The desert in peru was made by the Wari (huari) empire and its predecessors, as has been much discussed here on this board.
Proof: Their farms and cities are found throughout the desert. Why would they *build* farms and cities in the middle of the desert?
Sorry, that's just a non-fact. I don't care if you have a PhD in geology, I have a 5th grade education and I find this really obvious. Education can be a handicap, but don't post without researching the alternative. I have, BTW: The oldest desert is the Sahara, which started to decline from a rainforest from 3 million BC forward. The remains of the earliest human, Lucy, were founded in the Central Sahara dated around 3 million BC.
This one's open and shut, but it also is patently obvious: Nature abhors a vacuum because of evolution. If there were no life, lifeforms would evolve to live there. Just look at antarctica, one of the world's most successful ecosystems. Or the Taiga/Tunda, another. What these places have that bodes so well for life is not their natural environment, it's "no humans."
Okay, I'm done now.
Niki,
It wasn't an attack, and snarks don't count. Be civil or don't, the choice is yours, I was only mentioning it as something already discussed for people who want to get along. I think that some posters respond to PN differently, and I understand that, he does spam the board. I am not one of them, however, but that doesn't mean that I won't snark him once in a while. Everyone snarks everyone, it's called having a sense of humor.
Sorry, the holier than thou is starting to annoy me again. Can we get back to Afghanistan please?
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Well Niki
after watching the talking heads on CNN, I'd have to say you are an expert of Afghanistan...
more because I don't think any of those suits are at all believable.
Could have been worse, I might have watched Faux news
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
The Taliban most likely would not be a threat to anyone outside the area, and not to us; Al Qaeda has long gone international, isn’t powerful in Afghanistan, is apparently moreso in Pakistan now, and we’re not focused on going after them.
I think I probably agree with this assessment, though it is a gamble. I personally like the idea of fighting hard for a few years to try to improve the status quo (pushing the Taleban back while building up the Afghan security services, tilting the balance of power away from the Taleban), before our inevitable orderly retreat and hope for the best exit-strategy.
But there is another issue here, that hasn't been mentioned. Pakistan has a fight against their own Taleban, and I think the fate of this *nuclear* state is much more important. Would a Taleban-controlled Afghanistan across the (porous) border increase Pakistan's internal struggle?
This isn't addressed specifically to you by the way Niki, I think we're all very grateful for the insight you've already offered, any question in the realm of grubby war/geopolitics or anything, feel free to ignore.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Niki:
Just a quick aside: I have my own opinions on how much or if the “Clintonistas” run Obama or his government. I can easily see anyone, diplomat, citizen or President, initially reacting as he did against Karzai, then over time accepting that it is he with whom we must deal at this time unless we want to encourage further strife. Just my opinion.
Oh, I'm sure it's a power struggle, but I did watch this one, and it went like this:
Obama to Karzai: you can't take power without the support of the people. We have to hold back on this...
Hillary: We support Karzai
Obama: We support Karzai
Do I hear an echo?
Yes, I know that Obama is trying to be his own man, but when I predicted this fall out when he was running last year, I said any way it goes, Hillary wins, because she knows far more people in DC than Obama does, and so she's going to master the beltway game. That's the real reason Obama has Biden. The difference is, Clintons know how to kick it old school in influence pedalling.
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Thanx for your kind words, JS. Not sure they’re deserved, but thanx. And who knows, maybe if enough of us hang in there long enough, something good will happen, eh?
Gino: Thank you, I found those FASCINATING! And yes, I was pretty sure that opinion is divided all around the country, probably divided for different reasons among urban folk and other reasons for the villagers, y’think? Seems like it would be that way to me. Given everyone views things from their life’s perspective. But they were neat interviews, I thank you for them. I especially got a kick out of the guy who said “"They don't know much about our culture and they can't communicate with the local people." Not much has changed in that respect since we were there, I see…sadly. What I don’t get about that is Why don’t we LEARN??? After sixty years, that statement is exactly the same…
And of course, translators have been fired in huge numbers because they’re gay…sigh…
I’m certainly no expert; my personal knowledge is 50 years old and much has changed. But I do find it irritating that the MSM is what people accept as factual, when the talking heads merely repeat what they’re told—investigative journalism is an endangered species! Some of them STILL can’t pronounce “nuclear”< and nobody seems to want to change that. I just saw "Afghani" used with respect to the people, not the currency, again last night. Sigh...Quote:
No surprise there….probably the same sentiment voiced by almost all places we’ve invaded, don’t you think? “Take your troops out; give us your money”. Pretty natural. And “But many Afghans think that simply pulling out would be a recipe for disaster and that the country would descend into civil war.” Not surprising to find differing views; same thing is true over here.
“Jawed advocated a complete withdrawal of foreign troops but would like continued international support for the Afghan government.”Quote:
Some very cogent, informed opinions there---all those interviewed except the first one were students; the first one was a farmer. Not surprising, the number of different views; interesting, how good a grasp they have on the situation. I guess not surprising, since if you live there, you see it right in front of you all the time.
“Although they do enjoy public support in the major cities, it's a different story in remote areas. They should try very hard to avoid civilian casualties from now on and not undertake air attacks until they are certain of the target.”
_____
“It makes you wonder: foreign troops are great in number, well-armed and well-equipped. They've got the best tanks and weapons and yet they can't defeat the Taliban.
The Taliban can go anywhere and do anything they want. They go to a village, they open fire on a convoy and they use the villagers as a human shield. But there are no soldiers or police in the village to protect the residents. And that's the problem: every town and village should have it's own protection.
The question now is not how many extra troops will be sent but what role they'll play.”
______
“Afghanistan is a developing country. We need a good security and we need our own army to be well-equipped and well-trained.
But before we have the capability to safeguard our security situation ourselves, we first need help from foreign countries to train our army and police. This is the only way we can ensure better security and peace in Afghanistan.”
______
“The increased number of troops will backfire unless they can hold areas that are secured. Once an area is secured, it should never be ceded back to the Taliban.
But providing the Afghan security forces with tactical training is not enough. Most people think that the US and the UK contribute towards the suffering of ordinary people by teaching our security forces to be lethal without teaching them the responsibilities that come with it.”
Perfesser, thank you for your post. I believed that was the case, but I haven’t the knowledge to explain exactly why. I really
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Niki
Actually it was the position being taken, and the issue was Peru, but:
Quote:
The idea that the 2,256,936 miles (6.2 million kilometers) of Australian desert ... was created by man is something I find difficult to accept.
And yet it happened. (I think that # is high, but it depends on the definition)
Not arguing the point, the conventional wisdom on this one just doesn't jibe with the nature of nature. I don't know why people persist in this belief, which, from what I read, the Africans put on the same level as Creationism.
This isn't a criticism of anyone, I'm only pointing it out because I think that it's a very dangerous belief. If there is a cataclysm is about to strike, not to think pro-actively about it would be a mistake.
Re: Afghanistan, I'm chicken little just here to tell you that the sky actually *is* falling. Maybe I'm wrong, but can you afford to take that chance?
More to the point: Using simple logic and laws of mathematics and physics, you can actually predict the layout of the universe and everything in it without too much difficulty. Understanding the underlying logic behind natural events, evolution, and the pervasive life forms of the planet takes only a smidgen of understanding. It's overwhelmingly obvious that this does not predict a desert.
It does predict some fragile ecosystems, simple human farming and animal herding is enough to kill such environments.
Again, to the specific example of Australia, I just did a cursory search, and the fossil record indicates that the land seems have been relatively fertile for the billions of years prior to the arrival of humans around 60,000 years ago. The ecosystem slowly declines, and collapsed between 14,000-7,000 years ago. It's important to remember that Australia, like the rest of the Earth, wasn't settled once by one group of human, but several times, in this case, three times prior to the modern era. One of those cultures, I would hazard a guess, brought with it some very destructive agricultural practices.
I humbly suggest you examine the possibility that the Afghan ecological decline is the result of some practices of people living there now, just in case... Because if I'm right, then some major technological solutions may be needed, or massive famines will set in.
Also, consider this: If the environment is stretched to the breaking point, and the infant and child mortality is as high as you say, if we introduce healthcare which stops that mortality, the resulting population explosion will cause a systematic collapse unless we also introduce some ecological measures
All of which is far more important than whoever is nominally in charge.
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ummm... While I agree with you it's possible for natural deserts to exist (I live in a grassy one, there's a more traditional looking one to the south of me caused by the Sierra Nevada rain shadow and a shit ton of eroded Jurassic sandstone), I'd wouldn't be so quick to call Iran and Afghanistan a natural desert. You might wanna check out this link about ancient Sumeria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer#Decline
The land is still pretty much ruined, there's not much can grow there. Primitive agriculture techniques and grazing herd animals can cause quite a bit of ecological damage, especially in arid terrain.
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Never said absolutely that either Afghanistan or Iran were natural deserts. If anyone remembers, it was I who first said that the desert was "created", largely by the traveling kuchis. Whether the entirety of the country was or not is way beyond my knowledge. I believe Afghanistan might have been at least partly a natural desert, worsened by humanity to the state it's in.
The Australian figures just jumped out at me as I was searching, they weren't in reference to anything specific, just a huge number to conceive of as being destroyed by humans, especialy insofar as I know, that Australia has never been highly populated. It's neither here nor there..
Afghanistan has endured numerous droughts, as well, which contributed and continue to do so. And whether I believe it or not, there's nothing I can do about it, so there IS no "take a chance".
We'll just have to agree to disagree; I continue to believe there are deserts which were created by nature, and I believe both the cite I provided and the facts the Perfesser gave are pretty logical.
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Nik,
Everyone is free to believe what they want.
Now,
Back to Afghanistan.
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Afghan responses to Obamas peace prize
Afghans angry at Obama's Nobel win
THE BIG CHILL IN OSLO
December 14, 2009
I guess President Barack Obama has never read Benjamin Franklin’s maxim, “there never was a good war, or a bad peace.”
Obama’s speech in Oslo proclaiming Afghanistan a “good” war and trying to justify US global military operations echoes to America’s detriment around Europe and, more important, the Muslim world.
The president’s address dismayed many who foolishly hoped the “anti-war” president might curb or even end his wars because of a highly politicized and leftish Swedish award. Not so. America’s military-industrial-financial juggernaut continues to roll on.
But what could Obama do? Unwilling to turn down the award he did not solicit, the president had to turn up in Oslo and accept a peace prize as he was widening and deepening the Afghanistan war. In retrospect, he probably should have turned the prize down, saying, as he did at Oslo, that he has not yet done enough to merit such an award.
full story
http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/the-big-chill-in-os
lo.aspx
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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Gino
Norway.
Otherwise, good points, but I don't know if you noticed during his campaign a lack of humility on the part of Obama, oh he of the pre-presidential seal, and the mock up parthenon where he put himself in place of Zeus?
Now what happened with leaders like this before, Pericles, Augustus, Oh, I see, can go either way: Empire, or Fall.
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Editted for the pun.
Sorry, it just suddenly seemed fitting and oh so necessary.
Hopefully Niki will come by with more insights and change it back.
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I have no further insights to offer, my feelings about our involvement in Afghanistan have been expressed elsewhere. But I do disagree with changing titles (tho' I sometimes--but rarely--do so myself), especially in this case, were the thread was CREATED to discuss the culture of Afghanistan, not to discuss the war. It would be nice if the thread were returned to being about that, but I recognize that threads have lives of their own. Would be nice if someone would start a thread discussing the war, not the culture...in fact I'll probably do so.
But in this case, changing the title is particularly reprehensible to me, so I'll change it to reflect what it was supposed to be about.
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Niki,
Good point. Sorry I joined the war digression
I missed the thread title change.
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No apologies necessary. All threads diverge from their original topic. I just wanted to ask respectfully if the discussion of the war could be put in a thread where it belonged, rather than this one (which obviously I take personally, especially as you offered it to me and started it by saying it should be about Afghanistan itself).
Let's let this one sink, and debate the war in the other one, 'kay? That's all I ask.
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Sorry about that, I don't normally change the titles.
It would be interesting to hear a cultural take on the war, though, what groups are with which faction and why. Perhaps you might still have some insights that way, so I'll look forward to the thread you mentioned.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I have no further insights to offer, my feelings about our involvement in Afghanistan have been expressed elsewhere. But I do disagree with changing titles (tho' I sometimes--but rarely--do so myself), especially in this case, were the thread was CREATED to discuss the culture of Afghanistan, not to discuss the war. It would be nice if the thread were returned to being about that, but I recognize that threads have lives of their own. Would be nice if someone would start a thread discussing the war, not the culture...in fact I'll probably do so.
But in this case, changing the title is particularly reprehensible to me, so I'll change it to reflect what it was supposed to be about.
Sorry Nikki, I posted the You Tube story to illustrate how much of a difference there was in opinions between people living in Kabul ( where I find most Western news sources try to use to gage the entire country ) and the people who live elsewhere in Afghanistan.
I'll post stuff like that in a new thread from now on
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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My husband, I and 4 children were in Kabul Dec '59 - Dec '61. I wonder if we were acquainted. We were with AID. I, too believe that less military and more teachers and medical personnel are needed in that country. I have great admiration for Greg Mortenson who encourages the building of schools. especially for girls, by the natives in the boondocks, without US government assistance.
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Gawd, Dorothy, we MUST have known one another, the American community was so small. My "given" name is Sandra Beecher, my mom was Jeanne and my dad Ralph. He worked for Pan Am, and mom secretaried for an organization, I forget the name, their daughter was my best friend, Trina Johnson. You must be older than I if you were married with kids, I was only 9-11 at the time, but we were there EXACTLY between early '58 and Summer of '61 some time. Did you know my parents, did I go to school with any of your kids? I'm on pins and needles...!!
I went ape shit a while back when I discovered a website for American International School of Kabul, which I attended, and go there now and then. But there's nobody there who was there as early as we were, so I'm one of the "older" people there. If I knew any of your kids, they might enjoy going there, it's at http://www.aisk.org/ (tho' a number have dropped off and gone to Facebook I think, so it's quieter right now).
I'm envious that you were an adult; my memories are fragmented and my impressions were mostly those of a kid, so I didn't notice a LOT. I'd love to have been an adult at the time and been able to take more in!
Woa...I may be having a false memory here, but I seem to remember one of the parents being "Dottie"...the only other last name I remember is Swanson, if you knew them. Betty two or three kids I think. I'm dying to know if you remember us or any of them.
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Just another in a long list of shitlamic cultureless shitholes
This one exports much of the toxic drug poison that hedonists in the West consume
The place a hellhole a place de-evolved, they blew up and destroyed so much of their own heirtage, Greek and Macedonia culture destroyed, Seleucid a major center of Hellenistic culture and the Surya cultures, the Hindu Maurya Jainism peoples and their temples and statues wrecked, Sasanian Parthia and Kushan Empire, link from West to East Asia and the thousand year old giant Buddha statues, the Buddhas of Bamiyan
Everyone there will be eventually forced to pray to an evil demon entity from that evil book known as the Quran or Koran, forced to pray to a demonic pedophile Moongod called Al-Lah?
Trump banned from the interwebs while the Taliban and Iran and Saudi terrorists operate social emdia accounts???
Pre-islamic Afghanistan looked kinda interesting
The new place just another islamo oppressive jihadi SHITHOLE COUNTRY, could the islamic muzzie and democracy have ever co-existed?
Islamic world unites to aid desperately poor Afghanistan
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Islamic-world-unites-to-aid-
desperately-poor-16713494.php
Afghanistan: Girl says she was beaten by Taliban jihadi for refusing sex, Taliban denies claim
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/11/afghanistan-girl-says-she-was-beate
n-by-taliban-jihadi-for-refusing-sex-taliban-denies-claim
Between the Awakening of ISIS and the Return of al-Qaida
https://themedialine.org/mideast-mindset/between-the-awakening-of-isis
-and-the-return-of-al-qaida/
All that said and with all the news I'm still a person who supports peace, I hope even a village idiot can live a life with a roof over their head, I hope they can survive unharassed, not all muslims despite having such a shit religion will be bad people...
... but... the islamic crap
must be mocked for the crap that it is
Also
What is the Bacha Bazi?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Sorry about that, I don't normally change the titles.
The thread title mystery continues....
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Afghans angry at Obama's Nobel win
Other nominations and winners ... Benito Mussolini, Kissinger, Joseph Stalin and yup you guessed it ...Adolf Hitler
Did Trump even say those 'Shithole Countries' Comments or was that more rumor gossip pushed by the media...
SHITHOLE COUNTRIES ???
Afghanistan's brutal year: the return of the Taliban
https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/20/afghanistan-s-brutal-year-the-retu
rn-of-the-taliban
Up to 5,000 Afghans crossing into Iran every day, says official
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/271909299/up-to-5000-afghans-cross
ing-into-iran-every-day-says-official
Turkey, Qatar Firms Ink Deal To Control Five Airports In Afghanistan: Report
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/rest-of-the-world-news/turkey
-qatar-firms-ink-deal-to-control-five-airports-in-afghanistan-report.html
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It seems hundreds of US Citizens, Allies and Americans and families who helped the US remain trapped behind enemy lines
Months after its retreat, the big evacuation got people out but people died and the White House now says oops it admits some are still left behind.
Jen Psaki Denies White House Responsible for Americans Left in Afghanistan: ‘We Don’t Put Trackers on Americans Traveling Overseas’
https://www.mediaite.com/news/jen-psaki-denies-white-house-responsible
-for-americans-left-in-afghanistan-we-dont-put-trackers-on-americans-traveling-overseas/
Quote:
Thousands of Afghan allies, families still trapped under Taliban control
https://nypost.com/2021/12/14/thousands-of-us-afghan-allies-still-trap
ped-under-taliban-control/
State Department Helped 479 U.S. Citizens Leave Afghanistan Since Aug. 31 – Hundreds More Than Biden Said Were Left Behind
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/state-departm
ent-helped-479-us-citizens-leave-afghanistan-aug-31
No more war?
Arrest made after Quran (the muzzie version of Hitler's Mein Kampf disgusied as religion) is destroyed at ASU's Hayden Library
FRANCE: Muslims attack Catholic procession, shouting “Get lost, this is the land of the terrorist pedophile Moongod al-Lah, on the Qur’an I will cut your throat”
https://barenakedislam.com/2021/12/11/france-muslims-attack-catholic-p
rocession-shouting-get-lost-this-is-the-land-of-allah-on-the-quran-i-will-cut-your-throat/
More foiled terrorist plots before and after Sept. 11 the plan to bomb celebrations, bombing subways, Melbourne terror plot foiled a New Year’s Eve attack, Ashiqul Alam who planned to attack Times Square in New York City, rightwing militia, leftwing radicals you name it seems like all the violent crazies are still out there. Then you get the weird blackmailed, planted stuff like Liberty Seven, described as a "bizarre cult," news reported that seven were falsely arrested and wrongly charged with terrorism-related offenses in 2006 after being entrapped by a Federal Bureau of Investigation sting investigation, FBI tricking some retards into committing a crime in order to secure their prosecution and get more money for the FBI?
But what happens when you import islamist jihadi culture??
Has not identified tens of thousands of Afghan Muslim invaders it brought into the U.S.
https://barenakedislam.com/2021/12/18/four-months-after-its-hasty-retr
eat-from-afghanistan-the-biden-regime-has-not-identified-tens-of-thousands-of-afghan-muslim-invaders-it-brought-into-the-u-s/
Congress votes to give Biden’s handlers $13,000,000,000 to resettle unvetted Afghan evacuees in the US
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/12/congress-votes-to-give-bidens-handl
ers-13000000000-to-resettle-unvetted-afghan-evacuees-in-the-us
Taliban’s new ‘charm offensive’
https://barenakedislam.com/2021/12/10/afghanistan-the-talibans-new-cha
rm-offensive/
82,000 Afghan Refugees Went Unvetted
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/11/video-robert-spencer-on-oan-82000-a
fghan-refugees-went-unvetted
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Wasting time and treasure and energy inside
SHITHOLE COUNTRIES?
Afghanistan's Taliban order women to cover up head to toe
https://www.yahoo.com/now/afghanistans-taliban-order-women-cover-08030
0174.html
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more Asscrackistan 'Culture'
Burqa impostion in Afghanistan: US says it has 'leverage to wield with Taliban'
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/272546917/burqa-impostion-in-afgha
nistan-us-says-it-has-leverage-to-wield-with-taliban
SHITHOLE COUNTRIES?
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Afghan Woman Kills Self Before Taliban Could Stone Her For Leaving Home
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/woman-dies-by-suicide-in-afghanistan-b
efore-taliban-could-stone-her-for-running-away-from-home-3437195
An Empires Death and Graveyard, British Empire during the First, Second, and Third Anglo-Afghan Wars (1839–1842, 1878–1880, 1919); the Soviet Union in the Soviet–Afghan War (1979–1989); and the United States in the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) the Graveyard of Empire?
US President Joe Biden referred to the sobriquet while he delivered a public statement after the 2021 fall of Kabul as evidence that no further commitment of American military presence would consolidate the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan against the Taliban. A fear of "history repeating itself," which proved popular amongst authors, news analogy and pundits
https://web.archive.org/web/20210504122636/https://foreignpolicy.com/2
010/07/26/bury-the-graveyard/
https://web.archive.org/web/20210816233741/https://www.nytimes.com/202
1/08/16/us/politics/biden-taliban-afghanistan-speech.html
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A War moving from George W Bush junior, Barack Obama to Trump to Biden
SHITHOLE country?
Al Qaeda 'has small dirty bomb'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-157677/Al-Qaeda-small-dirty-b
omb.html
BBC News At Ten said agents posing as recruits infiltrated al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan.
The USA beat most of them, won 95% of the area, a group a coalition of the United States, the British, the French, Australia, Canada, Northern Alliance, NATO troops hunting down people inside caves was taking too much time. Iraq became the distraction but in the end they allowed pervert Sharia Law types to take control, it was never free
islamo nonsense spreading like cancer
an interesting ancient culture ruined by islamics, the jihad and mohammedans
but in the end it was Pakistan that was hiding binLaden
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I think how the current Taliban in Aghanistan treat women is an abomination. But it all came from ... what else? ... the USA fighting our neverending war against the Soviet Union, and using warlords and "mujahideen" (backbirth islamists) as proxies. It got to the point where any farmer, if he could dodge enough bullets to bring in a crop, would get stopped five or six times on the road to market and have to pay tribute to one minor warlord after another bc they were using that to fight each other. By the time he got to market there was almost nothing left.
Under the Soviet-backed government, women in Kabul were graduating as doctors, lawyers, and engineers. Roads were being built and conditions were improving. But we couldn't have that.
The chaos that we caused was so great that any faction that could impose stability was preferable.
I hope that eventually the Taliban will soften its rigid stand on women, but seeing as how Saudi Arabia is still in the stone age despite all its money, it's not inevitable.
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"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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shithole-countries?
Afghanistan's lost generation: What are the limits the Taliban puts on girls' education?
https://news.sky.com/video/afghanistans-lost-generation-what-are-the-l
imits-the-taliban-puts-on-girls-education-13578150
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