AVATAR Report...

POSTED BY: out2theblack
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 00:13
VIEWED: 25677
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OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:03 PM

<(O)> <(O)>

The film left me pretty speechless , but I'll give a go at beginning a discussion anyway...

WOW !

Whoa , Howdy !

To any Folk on the edge about whether they want to see this , or whether it is worth their coin , I have one question...

As a scientifiction fan , if you got a chance to visit a planet far , far away , and the trip would only cost you Thirteen Bucks , would you go ?

Most Folk would think it cowardly and foolish if you didn't , don'tcha think ?

DEFINITELY see this film in the 3D format , because I think it would be difficult to say that you have seen it , if you don't experience it that way...

Once you've been to Pandora , The Forest will be with you , Always...
http://www.avatarmovie.com/

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:24 PM

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/movies/avatar-trailer-v
iews-hit-47m/story-e6frexli-1225811794446

'...ONLINE trailer views for James Cameron's epic 3D blockbuster Avatar increased 109 per cent in the week before the highly anticipated film's release.

The trailer for the science fiction extravaganza starring Sam Worthington has attracted a total of 4.7 million views so far, according to entertainment industry site Variety.'

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:29 PM

'...after four years of actual production work, Avatar delivers a fully immersive cinematic experience of a new kind, where the revolutionary technology invented to make the film, disappears into the emotion of the characters and the sweep of the story.'

http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/avatar/trailer

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:38 PM

Wow! That's some trailer. Do I still need to see the movie? Just kidding...how was the 3D?

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:46 PM

Michelle Rodriguez is roguish VTOL gunship pilot Trudy Chacon...All babes reporting for interplanetary duty
must be this smokin' Sierra Hotel
hot...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wow! That's some trailer. Do I still need to see the movie? Just kidding...how was the 3D?

Well , you remember Star Wars , how R2D2 projected the little hologram , and it looked a little flat , because it was only 2D ?

NOTHING looks flat in this film...Words fail , as do the flat photos on a monitor...

You are IN the forest , IN the sky , IN space , and all the displays and effects are IN YOUR FACE ! It's a very pretty film...One really cool thing is that the font on the native language
dubs is like the one used for the Serenity titles , so any Browncoat will feel extra-welcome !

I had expectations of a biggish sort , which I generally AVOID doing , because I'd rather be pleasantly surprised...

There was NO disappointment at all , and STILL I was very surprised at the quality of the experience...I attended this film at 12:01 am , with a total geek audience ,
and there was awe and applause at the end...

Battle Of 'Uncanny Valley' , 2154 CE...

" I call it a win ."

Other Folk seein' it , please sound off...

STORYMARK

Friday, December 18, 2009 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wow! That's some trailer. Do I still need to see the movie? Just kidding...how was the 3D?

Apparently, everything in the trailer is from the first hour, and the flick is 2:45, so.... probably, yeah.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ECGORDON

Friday, December 18, 2009 9:36 PM

I concur with O2TB. Truly a stunning achievement in movie making magic. Maybe Cameron is the King of the World after all, at least if that world is Pandora.

No, it is not unique in its story or characters, but what the hell difference does that make? I know us geeks have been thinking that with CGI there really is nothing that can't be done on film, but that has never been more true than at this specific time and place.

GO SEE IT!

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, December 18, 2009 9:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wow! That's some trailer. Do I still need to see the movie? Just kidding...how was the 3D?

Apparently, everything in the trailer is from the first hour, and the flick is 2:45, so.... probably, yeah.

My girl was extra-tired from work , and I think she had a hard time keeping her eyes open for all of it...

Ironically , she said it was about 45 minutes too long...I could usually cut 20 minutes or more from just about every film and not miss it ;
but I was so immersed in it , it seemed about exactly the right length timewise...You really get the impression that you have been somewhere...

PEULSAR5

Friday, December 18, 2009 11:45 PM

The visuals are JAWDROPPING. There were several times I had to remind myself it was CGI--you completely get caught up in it.

ECGORDON

Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:56 AM

Here's my review for what it's worth.

http://templetongate.net/jamescameronsavatar.htm

I'm not saying that you will lose any of your geek cred if you don't see this in a theater (and preferably the largest screen and in 3D of course), but I think you will regret it if you wait.

SHINYGOODGUY

Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:36 AM

Fellow Browncoats, Hear me! (ok, that's supposed to be in the voice of Morpheus in Matrix Reloaded when he gives his rah-rah speech)

Anywhozzlebees, Go See This Movie You will NOT be sorry. Everything is....well, imagine you're aboard the vessels that land in Serenity Valley chasing off the last of the rebels.

They ask you to go on a dangerous but potentially beneficial (to the Alliance that is)mission that will rain cashy money upon those in charge.
You go and join the rag-tag bunch and it's the crew of Serenity. They show you the lay of the land and how to survive on the outer rim.........

That's Avatar in a nutshell. Your money, for those that can spare it, will be well worth it.
Pay no attention to the naysayers that poo-poo the film in any way. Go see and judge for yourselves.

BTW go see it in 3D. I know it will make Fox and Cameron a shitload of money but, if you're a sci-fi fan you owe it to yourself. I'm going back in a couple of weeks to see it in IMAX format.

SGG

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:43 AM

Yes, indeed! Michelle has a small but effective part and is kick-ass all the way. She could have been Pvt. Vazquez's love child (see Aliens).

Absolutely loved her in this. But Zoe Saldana stole this movie.

SGG

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:50 AM

Hey O2TB,

It's everything you said and more, much more. Like you said words fail. You do feel like your a fly on the wall catching a glimpse into the life of this warrior named Jake.

You are IN everything. The entire movie was seamless in it's transitions from live to animated action. Hell, it didn't seem 'animated' at all. Incredible journey folks, GO, I SEE YOU.

SGG

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:58 AM

Ironically , she said it was about 45 minutes too long...I could usually cut 20 minutes or more from just about every film and not miss it ;
but I was so immersed in it , it seemed about exactly the right length timewise...You really get the impression that you have been somewhere...

I agree again with O2TB. Time means nothing here. You get caught up in the journey and the next thing you know, it's done. It was just about the right length, not too long or short, Cameron got it just right.

People applauded and cheered at the end. That's amazing in itslef, how often do you see that at the movies - once in a great while. Go.

SGG

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Saturday, December 19, 2009 5:05 AM

You know what came to mind while I was visiting Pandora - the scenery and scope reminded me of Frazetta and Roger Dean's paintings of far-off worlds.

Just a thought.

SGG

Tawabawho?

BIGRICHARD

Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:19 AM

just wanted to add my thoughts.

I saw the film early (Wednesday) because I live in Australia (it was FINALLY good for something!)
so I didn't want to post anything before a lot of other people had seen it. I didn't want to build too much hype and disappoint people, or ruin anything for people or whatever.

BUT ANYWAY.
I have to say that I loved this film. Like everyone else is saying, sure, the plot wasn't overly original or complex, but it all just worked perfectly for the film. This was a film about Pandora, and it was brilliant. The story, the acting (loved Zoe Saldana as Neytiri, she was perfect) and the of course, the EFFECTS.
Just so everyone is aware, ALL of Pandora is computer generated. Everything. All the plants. Everything. Everything. Oh. My. God.
Sorry. Anyway.
It was a brilliant, immersive film, and probably the first time I've fully believed in a huge alien world. All the little things just added to it. Things like having Jake Sully floating slightly at the start, as he came out of cryosleep. They could easily have gone "oh yeah, they have some sort of fake gravity machine." but instead everything that could be done to make the movie feel more authentic or interesting, they included.
They've got $15 from me already. And I'll probably try to see it another 2 times in the cinemas, just to help contribute money. I'm hoping for more films like this.

ZZETTA13

Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:52 PM

Ok, since I first saw the movie trailers of Avatar about a month and a half ago I’ve wanted to see this movie. Cameron is a genius when it comes to movie visuals and the guy is a pretty awesome storyteller too. He knows how to keep his projects hidden until the right moment and releases the trailers at the right time to generate a ton of interest.

I saw a production interview with him on the set of Avatar where he says that he, himself is an artist so he wanted the best working on his project. Cameron knows what he wants.

SGG, if the work he has created has visuals that match Frazetta and Roger Dean’s then it is a must see for me.

Thanks for the info on this fellow browncoats!!

Z

PCCH7

Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:20 PM

predictable but good..

"Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor.."

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Here's my review for what it's worth.

http://templetongate.net/jamescameronsavatar.htm

I'm not saying that you will lose any of your geek cred if you don't see this in a theater (and preferably the largest screen and in 3D of course), but I think you will regret it if you wait.

Yours is the BEST review that I've seen so far , E-C , but I have to respectfully disagree with your comment about the 'fairy-tale ending'...

Are you able to submit your reviews to Rotten Tomatoes ? A lot of Folk would see it there , and I think that the overall positive buzz from your comments would be a boost for the film...

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
You know what came to mind while I was visiting Pandora - the scenery and scope reminded me of Frazetta and Roger Dean's paintings of far-off worlds.

Just a thought.

SGG

If you like that sort of thing , you might enjoy the do-it-yourself version...Also used in film work...

http://www.planetside.co.uk/

'...Terragen™ 2 is a powerful solution for rendering and animating realistic natural environments. Create entire worlds from your imagination, or import real world
terrain datasets and use Terragen 2 to create the most realistic visualisations possible. You control the weather, landscape, rivers, lakes and oceans,
suns, moons and stars.'

http://www.planetside.co.uk/content/view/15/27/

PENNAUSAMIKE

Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:44 PM

Avatar lived up to my expectations.
I went to see an "EVENT" movie;
I saw an "EVENT!!" movie.

My family and I all felt the 3-D increased the connection with the audience.
It also made the audience a participant in the aerial flights and battles.
3-D made the interactive viewscreens just a little more awesome.
And finally, the 3-D environment of Pandora was immersive and spectacular.

Cameron knows action.
Transformers 2 was too jumbled (except the amazing forest fight),
2012 was just characters outrunning destruction (more than once=yawn)
but in Avatar, whether a jungle hunt or a techno-battle, I knew who was who, what was what, and where they were.

The "Dances With Wolves" storyline was what it was.
Some people want to see that story; some don't.
I felt the references to European settlers displacing the native American population were spot-on;
I felt the handful of references to the Iraq war were strained and artificial.
My only complaint is that rather than just a small group of Corporate-Baddies,
all of humanity, the race that destroyed their now-brown-no-green-Mother-Earth;
were portrayed as the bad guys.

The conceit that makes the story possible
(that the blue natives were physically and spiritually connected to their planet and environment)
isn't a real thing.
I had to suspend my real-life and religious beliefs to buy into Avatar's story.
And given that this (felt like a lot less than) two-and-a-half hour movie was so engaging,
I was willing to do that.

The reward was a thoroughly enjoyable movie-going experience.

Mike

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Fellow Browncoats, Hear me! (ok, that's supposed to be in the voice of Morpheus in Matrix Reloaded when he gives his rah-rah speech)

Anywhozzlebees, Go See This Movie You will NOT be sorry. Everything is....well, imagine you're aboard the vessels that land in Serenity Valley chasing off the last of the rebels.

...You go and join the rag-tag bunch and it's the crew of Serenity. They show you the lay of the land and how to survive on the outer rim...

That's Avatar in a nutshell. Your money, for those that can spare it, will be well worth it.
Pay no attention to the naysayers that poo-poo the film in any way. Go see and judge for yourselves.

BTW go see it in 3D. I know it will make Fox and Cameron a shitload of money but, if you're a sci-fi fan you owe it to yourself. I'm going back in a couple of weeks to see it in IMAX format.

SGG

Here's where we begin the campaign , for

SERENITY 2 : 3D

ECGORDON

Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Yours is the BEST review that I've seen so far , E-C , but I have to respectfully disagree with your comment about the 'fairy-tale ending'...

Thanks for that comment. I've never even considered submitting my reviews to Rotten Tomatoes. My site is just a hobby, I'm just a fan not a professional critic. Although some of my book reviews have been linked to on the author's official site.

I actually think that pennausamike's comments are as insightful as mine.

Quote:
Here's where we begin the campaign , for

SERENITY 2 : 3D

While that would be awesome, I was thinking more along the lines of stories that truly cry out for such detailed effects. Imagine Ringworld or the remake of Dune using this technology. Serenity is more about the story and the characters and doesn't really need that boost, imo.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
Ok, since I first saw the movie trailers of Avatar about a month and a half ago I’ve wanted to see this movie. Cameron is a genius when it comes to movie visuals and the guy is a pretty awesome storyteller too. He knows how to keep his projects hidden until the right moment and releases the trailers at the right time to generate a ton of interest.

I saw a production interview with him on the set of Avatar where he says that he, himself is an artist so he wanted the best working on his project. Cameron knows what he wants.

SGG, if the work he has created has visuals that match Frazetta and Roger Dean’s then it is a must see for me.

Thanks for the info on this fellow browncoats!!

Z

Artist & King Of The World , At Work ;^)

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Yours is the BEST review that I've seen so far , E-C , but I have to respectfully disagree with your comment about the 'fairy-tale ending'...

Thanks for that comment. I've never even considered submitting my reviews to Rotten Tomatoes. My site is just a hobby, I'm just a fan not a professional critic. Although some of my book reviews have been linked to on the author's official site.

I actually think that pennausamike's comments are as insightful as mine.

Quote:
Here's where we begin the campaign , for

SERENITY 2 : 3D

While that would be awesome, I was thinking more along the lines of stories that truly cry out for such detailed effects. Imagine Ringworld or the remake of Dune using this technology. Serenity is more about the story and the characters and doesn't really need that boost, imo.

Not disagreeing on any particular point , and I like Mike's review as well , though yours was here first...Appreciating all comments ,
both '+' & '-'...

Morgan Freeman had optioned Clarke's Rendevous With Rama ; wish he and Cameron would collaborate in getting that one made...

And , while the Serenity crew doesn't really need a lot of CGI and effects to get a story told , it would be nice to get that " You Are THERE " feeling
from a 3D issue of Serenity 2 , 'cause it's the ship we like , and ours is the Nicest...

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Yes, indeed! Michelle has a small but effective part and is kick-ass all the way. She could have been Pvt. Vazquez's love child
(see Aliens).

Absolutely loved her in this. But Zoe Saldana stole this movie.

SGG

More Michelle , in Video , in this making-of story from Auntie Beeb :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/8421468.stm

SHINYGOODGUY

Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:49 AM

I agree 1000% O2TB - Zoe Saldana made the story believable. She made every scene that much more and then some.

Best Actress in an Animated Feature. Hell, Best Actress. She was also quite good as Uhura in Star Trek. She will definitely get more work.

I'm still buzzing about this movie. And I'm glad I have you guys to share it with. I went with my son, who is a movie buff, and he thoroughly enjoyed it.

Please allow me a moment of fantasy: Could you guys picture Joss writing and Cameron directing Serenity 2?

I know there is an obvious flaw in my suggestion but, think of it. 2 sci-fi geeks and masters at what they do - the possibilties.

Ok, I'm a little punch drunk at the moment and still a bit giddy from that awesome film. So please - 'excuse me while I kiss the sky.'

SGG

Tawabawho?

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:26 PM

Now , Miss GirlFolk says she wants to go see it in IMAX 3D...

" Those blue people looked SO REAL !"

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:36 PM

'...The groundbreaking 3-D event that is “Avatar” finally hits theatres and gives James Cameron his biggest opening ever, the best ever debut for a 3-D film and the second best December debut ever!

The eyes of the world were focused on James Cameron and his first feature film since 1997’s “Titanic” and the results are in! $73 million for the weekend domestically and a whopping $159.18 million internationally for a total worldwide weekend take of $232.18 million. The reported large budget for the film was obviously money well spent as the film is on its way to a potential near billion dollars in global receipts. With stunning and groundbreaking visuals in 3-D, the film will continue to generate massive interest around the world. No discussion of the film would be complete without mentioning the IMAX presentations and the fact that they sold out every single seat and had to add more giant screen showings to keep up with the demand. IMAX continues to show their importance to the success of any film project that has their involvement.'

http://www.hollywood.com/boxoffice

ECGORDON

Monday, December 21, 2009 2:02 AM

That figure would have been much higher if not for the massive snow storm in the northeast. I think if the weather cooperates it could do just as much over the Christmas holiday period.

I saw it again today and it was just as good, if not better, the second time around. Now I have to figure out if I can afford to drive to Austin to see it in IMAX. Depends on if my company can afford to give me a bonus this year.

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, December 21, 2009 2:14 AM

Seeing this tomorrow, can't wait, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up... even though they are way way up...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

CLJOHNSTON108

Monday, December 21, 2009 7:10 PM

I was at the 11:40am show on Friday, and I just can't get Pandora out of my head!
Just discovered that there's a thread on the IMDb boards devoted to this very condition...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499549/board/nest/153821141

It was my first 3D experience, and my eyeballs were drying out because I didn't want to blink and miss anything for the slightest microsecond!
I need to see it at least 1 or 2 more times in 3D, then I'll be making heavy use of the Pause & Step buttons when the DVD comes out.

Also, I'm having some trouble enjoying "normal" 2D media now.

OUT2THEBLACK

Monday, December 21, 2009 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Seeing this tomorrow, can't wait, though I'm trying not to get my hopes up... even though they are way way up...

Please favor us with your impressions also , if you would...

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, December 21, 2009 11:57 PM

Y'all, and others have convinced me - and that's a right impressive thing, considering my distaste of hollywood drivel.

Of course, it helps seeing my hated frenemy Michelle get some more screen time, I STILL owe her for mowing down my team so bad (She plays FPS games online sometimes, and she's better than me, curse her pretty eyes!) though.

So yeah, I'll be seein this, but it's gonna be a bit before I have a day off to do so.

-F

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Y'all, and others have convinced me - and that's a right impressive thing, considering my distaste of hollywood drivel.

Of course, it helps seeing my hated frenemy Michelle get some more screen time, I STILL owe her for mowing down my team so bad (She plays FPS games online sometimes, and she's better than me, curse her pretty eyes!) though.

So yeah, I'll be seein this, but it's gonna be a bit before I have a day off to do so.

-F

Cool...

Just let us know when you do , 'cause it'll be nice to hear from you and the other Folk who've not been there yet...

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:

...Zoe Saldana made the story believable. She made every scene that much more and then some.

Best Actress in an Animated Feature. Hell, Best Actress. She was also quite good as Uhura in Star Trek. She will definitely get more work.

...Please allow me a moment of fantasy: Could you guys picture Joss writing and Cameron directing Serenity 2?

I know there is an obvious flaw in my suggestion but, think of it. 2 sci-fi geeks and masters at what they do - the possibilties.

SGG

Animated Feature ? I'm not sure 'performance capture' translated into supper-real CGI counts as animated , since there's also live action characters in the film...

Will be interesting what the awards shows do with this movie , as it sets a higher bar in several areas...

Joss should write/direct , but let Cameron be Executive Producer...

SAB39

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:08 AM

So - when are they starting work on the sequel?

SHINYGOODGUY

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:43 AM

LOL, I'm with u on that. My eyes began to tear up about half way through because I wasn't blinking.
I'm going back in a couple of weeks to see it in IMAX 3D.

SGG

Tawabawho?

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Please favor us with your impressions also , if you would...

I was definitely entertained (twice, once in 2D and once in 3D) but it still left me a little, "meh" just a bit disappointed, mostly because it was so close to being a great film for me. B -

So-so:

1. I saw it in 2D and 3D so I could compare, and my impression was that 3D is still a bit over-hyped and has not come that far since the last time I saw it. It's not used much at all these days so it's new-ish, and it does have a pretty big wow factor on occasion when it works, but it still has the feeling of several flat planes of depth instead of continuous depth.
My biggest objection with this current version of 3D are the tradeoffs though. To get those 2 different images to merge you have to put gray lenses between your eyes and the image. Because of that you lose: color saturation and color fidelity, detail, clarity, and proper exposure (lift your glasses and check it out, the image is just dimmer). That's too much sacrifice for me though I'm sure most viewers won't care.

Approximation 2D versus 3D:

3D really does shine in spots though, like in the Pandoran forrest scenes - those are big wows. Jake's first 24 hours there I consider some of the best moments in the film and the best for showcasing the 3D effects. Otherwise I'll take the movie in 2D, you can see the stunning sets, production and cg work more clearly.

2. The story/writing - oiy. I agree with what others have suggested, that Cameron needs a co-writer at the very least. It's one thing to try an appeal to the broadest audience possible (and therefore the least discerning) and it's another to use so many cliches, tropes and common archetypes, especially when you don't have to. I think this is what failed the rest of the movie, but I'm being critical. Writers - Get some!

Great stuff:

1. Cameron's vision and the look of Pandora. The team that worked on just the foliage alone did an amazing job. The flying dino birds, their movements were so real - can't imagine how they work out the locomotion algorithms for them.
He's always been great at future military designs/atmosphere/sets (Aliens), and the production quality and the look for the military in Avatar is no different, detailed and totally believable.

2. Steven Lang was great.

3. Zoe Saldana and her character - BEST thing in the film, she definitely owned that character, and the character herself was very memorable. I look forward to seeing her in the next movie ;)

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

OUT2THEBLACK

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:40 PM

AVATAR 'Certified " Fresh "':

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avatar/

FREEBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:13 AM

Cameron and Whedon. Would that rock or would it ROCK!?

OUT2THEBLACK

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
Cameron and Whedon. Would that rock or would it ROCK!?

Absolutely !

Locally , last weekend , BOTH the 2D and 3D versions of AVATAR were selling out , which I consider very positive...

OUT2THEBLACK

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:27 PM

TIME magazine reviews good/not-so-good about Avatar : http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599194743800

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 31, 2009 2:31 AM

Official word from this corner ?

It kicked ass - and coming from me for a hollywood product, that is as high praise as it gets.

A bit heavy handed on the 3D effects, especially in a couple places that didn't need it, but in scenes where they did add something, it added a lot.

Good story, a bit cliche, yes, but the quality of the visual experience, which can best be described as sledgehammer-stunning, more than makes up for it.

And I got to see my favorite frenemy get some more work, a small but rockin part, and it plays to a bit of an in-joke between us.

Select to view spoiler:

I play Air Rivals, and fly the Meadow Bugle, using very similar hide and seek tactics as she does in her little moment of glory.

Final judgement: Worth every damned penny.

-F

ZEEK

Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:24 PM

I'm amazed at the shining reviews on here. After about 45 minutes I was bored to death. The special effects were outstanding and they carried the first 45 minutes, but the story was a complete waste. There wasn't anything even slightly interesting in it. Everything that happened was foreshadowed to death. I found myself sitting there thinking "ok so we all know X is going to happen so just get to it already". I ended up pretty disappointed that all that effort went into special effects and they didn't bother with the story.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, January 2, 2010 8:13 AM

I thought it was magnificent. Folk dissing the story musta left their hearts locked up in a box at home. I found the characters' lives far too engaging to not see the unfolding events from their perspective. Sam Worthington nailed every beat of Jake Sully's character arc.

Select to view spoiler:

Loved the scene when he wakes up with a pair of functioning legs and can't wait to get the hell out of the lab and run!

The science fiction of the alien world was gorram breathtaking. The way Cameron captured the three distinct cultures in the film--military/scientific/indigenous--was masterful.

Anyway, it's been a while since I could honestly describe a movie as "magnificent" and I wasn't expecting to like it anywhere as much as I did.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 2, 2010 1:34 PM

Wow HK - so the message of "Only a white male can save the savages" didn't bug you just a lil' bit? My heart didn't exactly like that part.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, January 2, 2010 2:57 PM

Huh ?
Imma spoiler the whole thing, instead of pickin out bits...

Select to view spoiler:

Seemed more a collective effort on behalf of a number of people, particularly the scientists, one of whom was female as I recall, and a brave dropship pilot who was a little darker than the rest of them mind you.

I didn't really get any whiff of that mighty-whitey crap off it, cause our main "hero" wasn't exactly the sharpest pencil in the box (which amused me to no end, honestly) but he brought them two things absolutely vital to their survival - accurate realtime intelligence, and a knowledge of the enemy and their weaknesses, dim he may have been, but the guy WAS a marine, and knew the value of these things instinctively.

I was thinkin on things, and it occurred to me that if the scientist chick had maybe made the argument better, or in terms the corp rep could actually understand, there would not have been a fight - follow me for a moment here.

Sure, unobtainium is worth a bloody lot of money, but it's a finite resource with a limited application - on the other hand, a neural network of the density she described is, financially, MORE valuable to the company even if they had to clone it from native samples, especially if it's ability to direct interface can be preserved or adapted in some fashion because it is a renewable resource with damn near unlimited applications.

They were letting their tunnel vision for the metal blind em to tons of filthy lucre just layin around for the taking, but the only person who KNEW that was almost incapable of communicating with her own species, heh.

PENNAUSAMIKE

Saturday, January 2, 2010 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Wow HK - so the message of "Only a white male can save the savages" didn't bug you just a lil' bit?
My heart didn't exactly like that part.

If not a white male, SOMEBODY...
It wasn't Jake who saved the Na'Vi, it was their enviro-god.
The Na'Vi were getting their asses handed to them until the enviro-god intervened.

The whole "noble savage" thing only works in fiction, anyhow.
The Na'Vi may have been able to talk to god,
but apparently they hadn't even developed a written language.
Although I rooted for the Na'Vi in the fictional construct of AVATAR,
I'd NEVER be willing to give up literature and cinema and all visual media (like FIREFLY)
and V-8 cars and grocery stores and indoor plumbing...and on and on.
I'm glad for Jake and the Na'Vi that they are content
to gut and dress their dinner, poop in the woods and ride banshees without parachutes,
but I wouldn't be joining them.

So its not about white men or any racial-sexual thing,
it's about who is willing to take the knowledge gained from having been civilized,
and apply it to a savage lifestyle.

Mike

ASARIAN

Saturday, January 2, 2010 4:32 PM

Why, this totally sucks! For some reason my brain can't do the 3D!! I had the same thing with those red/green glasses you had, way back when: I just don''t see the 3D. There was a moment or two, when those white spore-thingies were twirling about, that I very briefly sensed them floating about in front of the screen; but otherwise nada! I wonder whether the phase-shift has to be equal for all brains. Maybe my brain needs a slightly wider shift? Did anyone else has this problem too?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

KWICKO

Saturday, January 2, 2010 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Why, this totally sucks! For some reason my brain can't do the 3D!! I had the same thing with those red/green glasses you had, way back when: I just don''t see the 3D. There was a moment or two, when those white spore-thingies were twirling about, that I very briefly sensed them floating about in front of the screen; but otherwise nada! I wonder whether the phase-shift has to be equal for all brains. Maybe my brain needs a slightly wider shift? Did anyone else has this problem too?

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

Oooogh - that doesn't bode well for me. The last several times I've tried to watch 3d on TV, it hasn't worked for me AT ALL. I've always ended up just tossing the glasses and watching it a little blurry, since trying to watch WITH the glasses just gets me blurry, blue, and headachey. :(

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

CYBERSNARK

Saturday, January 2, 2010 8:33 PM

There are non-3D versions, if you know where to look. Check your local theatres.

Personally, I think the 3D is kinda cool, but it's just a gimmick; I'm used to adding 3D in my head. That's what imagination is for.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, January 2, 2010 8:36 PM

(I apologize in advance for the angry tone of this post, but having lived within a shamanistic community for years, the casual use of the word "savage," the way the word is so gleefully tossed around by white people on the Internet when discussing cultures they barely know anything about, let alone understand, really pisses me off.)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Wow HK - so the message of "Only a white male can save the savages" didn't bug you just a lil' bit? My heart didn't exactly like that part.

Wow right back at ya, pizmo!

That's quite a hostile gloss you bring to the table. That was the message you got from your experience in the theater? Really?

Y'know, sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but I gotta call b.s. on this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs. When ya get right down to it, how the heck do y'all know they aren't noble? You ever met any? You ever spent any time with 'em, took the time to learn what their culture might have to teach? Or are y'all just so comfortable with your cultural supremacy--your "they don't even have a written language!"--that "noble savage" is a de facto oxymoron in your books, and the folk you imagine to hold indigenous culture in such high regard necessarily delusional?

But getting back to your post, pizmo, as Frem pointed out, something not in the story, which you bring to the story, must have blinded you to the simple facts of the story.

Select to view spoiler:

"White male" was not alone, after all, could not have succeeded alone ("White male" was merely the protagonist, the story could have been told from any number of characters points of view, but not quite so efficiently, since Jake Sully was the common denominator in all their lives). And holy crap, he and his people brought astonishing generational misery to the folks you fancy he "saved!" How does that work, exactly? Why isn't your story, "White male, finally, takes responsibility for 'white' culture's horrendous destructive capacity and actually manages to stop the near-inevitable process in this single case by supplying the victims of said atrocity with the information they needed to recognize the true threat the invaders represented and stop them?"

And, btw, "white male" had to give up being "white male" in the bargain, didn't he?

I'm sorry, but this really drives me up a wall. You go along with the story only up to the point when the metaphor no longer supports some cherished notion or other and then you stop paying attention.

Select to view spoiler:

His story is about being betrayed, thoroughly betrayed, by one culture and being embraced by another. It's a story of a man waking up to find a purpose in a life he'd all but thrown away. It's a story about personal healing and bringing an end to a genocide. For cryin' out loud, "white male" was simply doing the right thing!

And even if you credit Jake and Grace with giving the Na'vi the information they needed to push back the invasion, thus "saving" them, it was the leader of the Na'vi who made the important decision to let Jake live among them with the explicit purpose of learning more about the danger Jake's species bring to his people. And, if you take the story on its own terms, it was Eywa Herself who gave Neytiri the signal not to kill Jake outright but to protect him. Seems to me "white male" didn't "save the savages," seems the "savages" saved li'l "white male."

It is, perhaps, sad that the state of our dominant culture seems to require such proxy or bridge characters as Jake Sully to bring the audience to embrace an "alien" culture, but that's not racism, that's just training wheels.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, January 2, 2010 8:58 PM

Frem, rereading your post after the blast furnace has cooled down, and dayum! Well put, my friend!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, January 2, 2010 9:31 PM

For Folk that have been there , done that , and are still wanting the T-shirt :

http://www.stylinonline.com/avatar.html

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 2, 2010 10:33 PM

spoilers ahead

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
(I apologize in advance for the angry tone of this post...

fwiw HK, you never need to apologize to me on any forum if you are being genuine.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
... but having lived within a shamanistic community for years, the casual use of the word "savage," the way the word is so gleefully tossed around by white people on the Internet when discussing cultures they barely know anything about, let alone understand, really pisses me off.)

So you think only you can know that? This seems incredibly presumptuous to me. And how do you know these "people on the Internet" are white people btw? Do you assume to know who/what each of us are?

I think you completely missed the meaning of my post. I mean completely. If so then pay no mind to the argumentative stuff that follows and we'll just chalk it up to the limits of forum communications.

Otherwise, perhaps you had a message you couldn't wait to bring up and decided what I was saying was in the way?

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Y'know, sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but I gotta call b.s. on this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs. When ya get right down to it, how the heck do y'all know they aren't noble? You ever met any? You ever spent any time with 'em, took the time to learn what their culture might have to teach? Or are y'all just so comfortable with your cultural supremacy--your "they don't even have a written language!"--that "noble savage" is a de facto oxymoron in your books, and the folk you imagine to hold indigenous culture in such high regard necessarily delusional?

That's actually my point. They don't need saving from us, as in WHO THE F*CK DO WE THINK WE ARE (white male)? The same white male arrogance that led us into Iraq, the same, "They need our saving," the subtext of which is the blindingly stupid, "Since we don't understand them they must be wrong, they don't *blank* like us so they must be savages. They must be made to be like us and then they will be saved."

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why isn't your story, "White male, finally, takes responsibility for 'white' culture's horrendous destructive capacity and actually manages to stop the near-inevitable process in this single case by supplying the victims of said atrocity with the information they needed to recognize the true threat the invaders represented.

Hello, my point! Again it's the myth of the white male saviour.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And even if you credit Jake and Grace with giving the Na'vi the information they needed to push back the invasion, thus "saving" them, it was the leader of the Na'vi who made the important decision to let Jake live among them with the explicit purpose of learning more about the danger Jake's species bring to his people. And, if you take the story on its own terms, it was Eywa Herself who gave Neytiri the signal not to kill Jake outright but to protect him. Seems to me "white male" didn't "save the savages," seems the "savages" saved li'l "white male." It is, perhaps, sad that the state of our dominant culture seems to require such proxy or bridge characters as Jake Sully to bring the audience to embrace an "alien" culture, but that's not racism, that's just training wheels.

Of course their God loves the white man! And not just likes him, but chooses him (and not a Na'vi of course). And look at the rapid ascendancy of the white man as he easily grasps their culture and physical challenges, so easy for a white dude!

And while Jake makes pleads the case for them to stand and fight and risk their lives instead of leaving to live and fight another day, all he risked was the life of his avatar (kind of like a remote control drone).

Funny, I feel like a reverse Wulf arguing against the stereo-type of the dominant white

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, January 3, 2010 1:13 AM

(General warning: if you're following this back and forth between me and pizmobeach, you've already encountered many spoilers--read this post and you will encounter still more.)

Well, pizmo,

I don't know, I certainly don't disagree with you in principle about racism, imperialism, white-man's-burden and the like, I just don't think the movie disagrees with you either! lol

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
fwiw HK, you never need to apologize to me on any forum if you are being genuine.

I appreciate that.

Quote:
So you think only you can know that?

No. But I think that knowledge is rare on the Internet.

Quote:
This seems incredibly presumptuous to me.

That makes two of us.

Quote:
And how do you know these "people on the Internet" are white people btw? Do you assume to know who/what each of us are?

Now see, now, now, now. I know for a fact some of these people on the Internet ARE white--I'm talking about a phenomenon I have come across throughout my stay here in cyberspace. I thought I'd made it clear that I was speaking of the Internet as a whole--not the denizens of this forum only. I do not know the cultural background of every person in this forum. I do not, off hand, know yours--nor did I make assumptions about yours. On the contrary, that's why I say things like "...sorry if this doesn't exactly pertain to your view, but..." and "this freakin' "noble savage" meme getting promoted around the Interwebs..." I was speaking generally. The term "savage" used in this way has mostly been used by ignorant people--a lot of 'em, I have noticed, culturally "white" (I would go so far as to say that the use of "savage" in this context is culturally "white")--who know next to nothing of the cultures they're disrespecting with the term. I'm sorry, there's no okay context for this word for me. To me, you might as well be saying the "n" word--I don't care if you're being ironic or putting the word in someone else's mouth, it's ugly.

Quote:
Otherwise, perhaps you had a message you couldn't wait to bring up and decided what I was saying was in the way?

I'm sorry, I tried to be clear when I was addressing you specifically and when I was generalizing. I did have a message clambering to be brought up about the "noble savage" meme that I've had to deal with for weeks now as people try to pigeonhole this movie AVATAR and dismiss metaphysical traditions of which they manifestly have no understanding. Your flippant summation of the movie's message was the touchstone for my remarks.

Quote:
They don't need saving from us, as in WHO THE F*CK DO WE THINK WE ARE (white male)? The same white male arrogance that led us into Iraq, the same, "They need our saving," the subtext of which is the blindingly stupid, "Since we don't understand them they must be wrong, they don't *blank* like us so they must be savages. They must be made to be like us and then they will be saved."

Okay, see, now you've lost me. The movie is entirely congruent with this statement. Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" In what way was he "making them like us" in order to save them? At every turn in his personal story I see him moving toward humility and far from making the natives like "us," it is Jake who is going through an absolute transition in the opposite direction!

Y'know, there's the whole backstory around the school the humans started to "help" the natives in just the ways you decry. But the movie bears out what you know to be true: it was a bad thing, destroyed the humans' credibility with the natives and Sigourney Weaver's character was clearly ashamed of her involvement with that and had by the time the movie started, changed her attitude extensively. The experience had obviously afforded her the opportunity to learn a good deal of respect for the natives, to the point where she was pretty committed to undermining the mining operation and manipulating Sully to that

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, January 3, 2010 1:18 AM

Ah, I do see your point there and it was a weak part of the story, but the tale itself kinda required such a character to connect the two worlds for us in a fashion that would carry meaning to a broader audience - although it's been done without it, although not very effectively.

Still, given the quality of the rest of it overall, I think I can forgive that, and I generally ain't the forgiving type... especially when it comes to hollywood, but the story as-told could have been improved upon, the military and corp characters came across a little flat and one dimensional as well, which is perhaps even more of a flaw, but so little time is spent focused there that there wasn't a lot of room for characterisation.

I still think it's overall pretty awesome though.

-F

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, January 3, 2010 2:33 AM

Yanno, some things about it keep coming back to me, but most vivid is the tremendous cultural differences, in that "We have nothing they would want" was such a stumbling block there, hmm.

But I still think the whole mess was unnecessary, cause I was thinkin how that one conversation might have gone had someone like me been privy to it.
(imma spoiler tag it though)

Select to view spoiler:

I see she isn't quite getting it across to you on a level you understand, allow me.

Imagine, if you will, a supercomputer with more processing power than we have on this entire site, no larger than that pretty chunk of rock in your hand.

Even better, control systems an order of magnitude beyond anything commercially available today, with the ability to render training obsolete since the pilot is directly connected to the craft itself, what would that be worth ?

Oh but let's not stop there, if her theories about a planetary consciousness are correct, and I suspect they are, then how about THIS for you.

Imagine being able to upload everything she knows about this pretty little planet to a disk no bigger than a soda cracker, and download it even into YOUR pin head, how about that ?

Or of more immediate value, how about everything HE knows about weapons, tactics and military operations, on a chip that size, which can be downloaded into recruits straight off the street, making them immediately effective instead of investing all that time and resources training them ?

And let's save the best for last, shall we - if there *IS* a planetary consciousness, and we develop this tech, we would be able to connect with it and perhaps convince it to GIVE us the damned unobtainium, since you want it so much, or even *MANUFACTURE* it for us, and all we'd have to do is just reach out *takes the rock*, and pick it up...

And your company would be the sole patent holder and provider of that technology, what would THAT be worth ?

So hows the quarter looking now, mister company man ?

That mighta prevented the whole mess, in a way that benefitted all involved.

-F

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, January 3, 2010 3:36 AM

ETA: I tried to avoid spoilers without tags, but do mention things that happen early on the movie. Read this post at your risk!

Hi. Just saw it today in 3D in a very nice theater. Here's my take:

First, I thoroughly enjoyed the 3 hours, went gaga over the visuals. Complete gaga. I can't even imagine the work that went into making everything move so believably, especially bits with creatures/characters winding through trees and such. And this is the first CG animated skin/facial expressions that I have been able to actually, fully believe, which is amazing considering how non-human the skin and facial features were. And the alien animals - the scary thing that chased Jake off the cliff, the way it tried to dig him out from the tree roots was amazing, how it moved. Catlike but super strong and absolutely vicious. I loved it. I could watch that scene 20 times, just to take in how it moved.

And my god - the flight control center!! Any scene there also needs to watched 20 times over, or more...

I liked the 3D. Wasn't in your face with spears hurtling at you, but gave an interesting depth. I tended to forget it was 3D, but just enjoyed watching it.

The woman lead was fabulous. So easy to relate to her reactions, yet she was always non-human. Heart on sleeve. Couldn't have been easy to pull that off, to create such an empathic alien.

Yeah, overall, good stuff.

And here's the less good: I did have to occasionally tell my brain to shut up and enjoy it. Mainly, I found all the pretty-pretty colors very pretty, but I wish they'd toned it back. It made the forest look like a velvet poster under black light in some teenager's bedroom in 1981. (I speak from personal experience. ) In those moments, I could not make myself believe I was experiencing a real world. I knew it was there to make the kiddies in the audience say: oooh, pretty!

And yes - I did tell myself to shut up and say: oooh, pretty! And I did. Made for a somewhat immature kind of enjoyment. That's okay. I could probably use more immaturity in my life.

As for the plot: yes, predictable. Heavy-handed with the peaceful natives-love-nature/native Americans analogy/Iraq war analogy/etc references. More subtley would have been nice. I mean: "Shock and awe"? Really? But this issue didn't really draw things down too much for me. Perhaps we shouldn't be subtle about these issues.

As for explaining the "processing net" as a way to save the world: I think it was made clear that business guy was too much of a single-minded wuss to make an independent decision and tell evil marine guy what to do, and in any case evil marine guy wasn't going to change course. He wanted to go after the native folk because he was pissed that they humiliated him on his first day out. He did what he did out of personal vendetta. No argument was going to stop him, not even from business guy.

As for the "white man saves the natives" issue: I did ponder that, had read it in a review. But I don't think it was the case for the reasons Frem and HK covered above. For me, the real problem with this was a loss of believability, like the overly bright colors. It became a contrived fantasy, and a common one: damaged, hopeless man rises to become a near god. A shallow way to get the audience happy, I say.

Select to view spoiler:

I mean, when Jake tames the red dragon thing and suddenly all the native are bowing to him, I didn't see a "white man/savage" issue, I saw an over-used Mary Sue plot device. The hero needs to be loved by all, including the wild untame-able woman, and the prior romantic rival. It smacked of LRH's Battlefield Earth, which I consider the prime example of that theme. And you see what that kind of thinking gets you: Scientology.

I did find the red dragon thing funny in the battle though: what a good way to set yourself up as a target. "Hey bad marine guy - if you want to come after me, look for the really really big really really bright red dragon thing!"

Please don't take offense at the criticisms, Avatar fans. I did really enjoy the

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, January 3, 2010 4:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think it was made clear that business guy was too much of a single-minded wuss to make an independent decision and tell evil marine guy what to do, and in any case evil marine guy wasn't going to change course. He wanted to go after the native folk because he was pissed that they humiliated him on his first day out. He did what he did out of personal vendetta. No argument was going to stop him, not even from business guy.

Yep, sadly that was pointedly obvious, which is a major problem on field deployments when you have a ranking officer like that and no one at hand able or willing to pull his leash up short.

Alas that THAT problem only existed in fantasy, but sadly enough I've known and even met a couple of those - I can only imagine how problematic that'd be when a force is that far out of contact of a superior authority...

Me, I blame those in charge of the personnel selection process, there's a reason for pysch profiling exo-contact people in the first place.

Select to view spoiler:

But then, that was the weakness Sully used against them, he KNEW that jerk was going to do something like that, and corpie would let him, so he baited them to stick their neck way out...
And stood there with an axe.

Tactically though, Sully was a bit of a dunce, I suspect you could carry a pretty sizeable chunk of rock on one of them flyers, especially his, and it wouldn't take too many of those to put those dropships on the ground in a hurry, yanno ?

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, January 3, 2010 4:15 AM

Select to view spoiler:

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Alas that THAT problem only existed in fantasy, but sadly enough I've known and even met a couple of those - I can only imagine how problematic that'd be when a force is that far out of contact of a superior authority...

Me, I blame those in charge of the personnel selection process, there's a reason for pysch profiling exo-contact people in the first place.

Interesting. An issue that could have bearings on a possible sequel. I mean, I'm assuming the earthlings would come back pissed as hell in ~12 years, but maybe there would be cooler heads?

I actually thought the floating rocks would be part of it. Perhaps the tree would get damaged, disrupting the "flux", and the rocks would fall on the ships? I hadn't thought of the animals rising up.

I do enjoy the idea of nature joining the battle. Kind of like the Ents in LotR. I was pondering on the way home: interesting metaphor? If we fuck with nature, it will come back and kill us. Not in such a conscious, warlike, quick way. But it will kill us eventually if we don't quit being idiots with it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BORIS

Sunday, January 3, 2010 12:13 PM

I'm definitely going to see it but have to give 3D a miss. Unfortunately that format fries my neurons and makes me excessively twitchy...damn I feel ripped off. but everyone I know who's seen it raves about feeling like they've been transported.

JAKE7

Sunday, January 3, 2010 3:24 PM

I saw this movie yesterday and was totally blown away by the visuals.

This was my first 3D movie and I was not disappointed in the visuals. The 3D effects on the computer screens just blew me away. I could not get over how deep they looked.

The planet, Pandora, was incredible.

I thought they were a bit over the top with the "bad, greedy corporations" and "bad military" theme, but the effects were able to distract me from that.

Every time they went through that "tunnel" when connecting with their Avatars, I was alternately thinking Dr Who and Star Wars hyperspace.

In fact, since ILM did the special effects, I think it would be really cool if they were able to somehow retroactively turn all the original Star Wars films into this type of 3D experience. I'd be in geek heaven.

And yes, Serenity/Firefly in 3D? Simply awesome. Can you imagine how much freakier the Reavers would be if they were coming out of the screen at you? Or, the scene in Serenity where the Operative walked through the hologram of River and Simon? It was pretty cool in 2D, but imagine 3D...

--------------
MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
***********
"They just float out there, sending out raver breeding parties..."

PIZMOBEACH

Sunday, January 3, 2010 8:59 PM

It still doesn't feel like my point is getting across...

I'm a lot more critical of movies by directors that I have a great deal of respect for. Cameron, tons of respect. I think Aliens is one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever produced, he broke the mold with that film in so many ways. Since then, perhaps unfairly, I have come to expect that he might get close to repeating those heights with his following films. With Avatar he did break new ground with many very special/incredible effects, alone they are worth many viewings (I'll be buying the disk as soon as it's out). But the story and characterizations, sorry, it makes sense when you know that he had the initial ideas in the 70s, very early in his career.

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.
Plus, it's the arrogance that says given the chance the white man will save the day, in fact, it's up to them to save the day, everyone else is there to serve them saving the day (as in the other non-white or non-male characters). They will easily grasp the new ancient culture, they will of course attract and seduce the "girl" - the chief's daughter in fact - and rise through any special task that the "simple folk" would stumble to complete (even though it's their culture) and ride the beast no one else can, and after talking the chief into letting him stay he'll kind of brush the chief aside and start giving orders, "I can save you but only if you do as I say. First: Get the other clans together...."

And when he becomes Na'vi in the end wouldn't you guess that's as much because he's choosing his new status and his new body having working legs as anything else?

You are absolutely right about how we all take our lives to the movies, and I certainly see a parallel to America's regrettable global activities over the past years (and still). It's painfully obvious with the military and the corporation characters, but I see it in the choice for the main character too - the arrogant US white male having to turn all the wheels. It's just not always our story, there are other points of view.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, January 4, 2010 6:20 AM

Hey guys,

I've been reading the posts reviewing Avatar. I'm particularly interested in some of the takes folk here have on the story end of it.

Yes, it is somewhat predictable - a cross between Pocahontas and Dances with Wolves, but 'white male swoops in to save the day?' or "White male saves the savages?" I don't know about that. It was a simple plot, yes. It had the equivalent of native americans, yes. It had a white male infiltrating and then becoming aware of the natives plight, yes.

But, to me, it was more like Dances with Wolves; where a white male (from the military complex), discovers that the enemy is nothing like what he was told. In fact they had a culture and way of life that made perfect sense to them in their environment.

In Avatar, you have Sully, who is ridiculed and shunned for having a hole blown right through his life - and by his own people no less. The treatment of the wound warriors is subtly commented on here by Cameron. We, as the audience, forget, however momentary, that he's challenged physically, thanks to the avatar. We come to know this simple man as a warrior, of the Jarhead klan, who is driven and determined to make his mark.

He's given the opportunity, a carrot is also dangled, to do just that - make a difference. Much like in DwW, Sully sets out to gather info and intel on his potential enemy and gets a lesson in return. I admit this was handled much better in DwW than in Avatar, but it's there nonetheless. The more he learns about the Na'vi, the more conflicted he becomes about using the intel he's gathered to help exploit them.

He taps into a strength he didn't know he had, and, by the end of the story, it is brought to a predictable Hollywood ending. The bad guys are defeated and the natives keep their precious traditions. But, it's much more than that. Cameron, somewhat awkardly, is telling a cautionary tale about the environment and how we should be one with nature, protect the earth, etc.

Pretty much, a treehugging tale. HomeTree, Eywa, Tree of Souls. etc. The arrogance that most folk speak of is very elusively and cleverly manipulated by Cameron in this movie. Many see that Jake went to "save" the savages, but it is he who is saved quite literally by the Na'vi - both as a treehugger and a warrior. The premise was that he was protected and chosen by Eywa for something great; i.e. to make his mark.

As I stated earlier, it was somewhat simplistically told, but the truly entertaining part was the special effects, in particular, the new 3D we heard so much about. I didn't mind so much the 'black-lite' poster effect of the Pandora jungle, it added to the magical allure of the overall storyline. When I first heard it was animated, I thought "Oh no, it's gonna look like a cartoon," but far from it. It was awesome and, at times, breathtaking in scope.

I'm gonna go back in about a week to see it in IMAX.

SGG

Tawabawho?

ASARIAN

Monday, January 4, 2010 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.
Plus, it's the arrogance that says given the chance the white man will save the day, in fact, it's up to them to save the day, everyone else is there to serve them saving the day (as in the other non-white or non-male characters). They will easily grasp the new ancient culture, they will of course attract and seduce the "girl" - the chief's daughter in fact - and rise through any special task that the "simple folk" would stumble to complete (even though it's their culture) and ride the beast no one else can, and after talking the chief into letting him stay he'll kind of brush the chief aside and start giving orders, "I can save you but only if you do as I say. First: Get the other clans together...."

I think you may just be reading way too much into this. I don't see "White Male America's story telling arrogance" at all. What I see is just a way of story telling that fits pretty much every plucky hero: yes, the story is about him; yes, he saves the day; yes, he has above-average abilities; yes, he gets the girl; yes, he succeeds where others fail, etc. I don't particularly tie that to "White Male" issues per se. Take Mal, for instance: he gets stabbed, shot at, tortured, saves the day, gets the girl (kinda), succeeds where other fail, etc. You could call that a mite irrealistic. And you'd be right. But making a film about total losers, where did that get fun? Superimposing "White Male" supremacy onto a hero, though, just because he happens to be white, I don't see it.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

TWO

Monday, January 4, 2010 1:17 PM

Because I read the ORIGINAL script, I'm certain that the Na'vi are NOT savages that need white men like Jake Sully to teach them about flush toilets, machine guns, and dentistry. We will have to wait for Avatar 3 to correct the notion that Na'vi are 18th Century Apache blue-skins whose most advanced technology is the bow-and-arrow.

I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

The best example of a major script change for the sake of a sequel: The Na'vi threatened to send a plague to Earth if the humans ever return to Pandora. Avatar 2 will have Earth send a bigger army to take back Pandora. How is that sequel possible if the Pandorans can destroy life on Earth? It is not, therefore Fox had the words deleted to protect their investment.

Where did I see the original script, before Fox crapped all over it? Via a link that no longer works from this page www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/8/73755/86297 where it says, “Not technically a screenplay but rather a "scriptment", a combination of both screenplay and treatment. A stunningly majestic science-fiction piece that if produced (especially if by Cameron) would surely rate highly against sci-fi classics like Alien and Blade Runner.”

There are other Na'vi hi-tech miracles from the original script that are treated like unexplainable magic in the finished movie:

Select to view spoiler:

The telepathic bond between Na'vi and beast? That's not God's creation nor Evolution. It's Na'vi genetic engineering. The telepathic bond with the soul tree? Genetic engineering, again, because plants don't naturally have a nervous system. Na'vi immortality? A soon-to-be-dead personality can be uploaded to the tree of souls then downloaded into a new body. Floating mountains? Dragon Hunters (2008) www.imdb.com/title/tt0944834/ had floating mountains because they look beautiful. No explanations of how mountains float were necessary in that cartoon. The Na'vi built their floating mountains because that's beautiful. And does anybody believe that the mineral being mined on Pandora, unobtainium, is natural the way uranium ore deposits are natural?

The Na'vi technology was, originally, so beyond human understanding that it was unrecognizable as hi-tech. The crappy dialog in the finished movie makes the Na'vi into red-skins with blue skin, but the stuff that is not in words (and thus not in the screenplay that Fox Executives were reading) says high technology. At least it does to me.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

TDBROWN

Monday, January 4, 2010 3:01 PM

The story is familiar to anyone who has seen Dances With Wolves. But the right side wins this time, and it's one Hell of a ride! I have seen this in both 3-D and 2-D now. I recommend 3-D, of course, but the 2-D was so immersive that it felt like 3-D. A 'must-see" film indeed!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

KNIGHTREYEDER

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:21 AM

I was part of the over the top crowd that saw Star Wars 20+ times back in the days it was still in theaters. That movie blew away everything before it. I have not been as impressed with anything since, no insult to Serenity as it was a really great film. It just didn't set new standards in film making, it stood alone on it's fantastic story.

I've been waiting since 1977 to get blown away the way I was by Star Wars.....and Avatar finally did it. It's about time too! I saw it in both 2D and 3D and let me say the 2D was stunning enough to blow me away. The 3d was just a great way to see it again!

Cameron's the man now.

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
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Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

KNIGHTREYEDER

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:22 AM

I was part of the over the top crowd that saw Star Wars 20+ times back in the days it was still in theaters. That movie blew away everything before it. I have not been as impressed with anything since, no insult to Serenity as it was a really great film. It just didn't set new standards in film making, it stood alone on it's fantastic story.

I've been waiting since 1977 to get blown away the way I was by Star Wars.....and Avatar finally did it. It's about time too! I saw it in both 2D and 3D and let me say the 2D was stunning enough to blow me away. The 3d was just a great way to see it again!

Cameron's the man now.

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
nt.php

Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

KNIGHTREYEDER

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:22 AM

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
nt.php

Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

ASARIAN

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TDBrown:
The story is familiar to anyone who has seen Dances With Wolves. But the right side wins this time, and it's one Hell of a ride! I have seen this in both 3-D and 2-D now. I recommend 3-D, of course, but the 2-D was so immersive that it felt like 3-D. A 'must-see" film indeed!

Haven't seen Dances with Wolves. Still didn't see any white supremacy, though. :) Which is to say, I could see it if I wanted to, but I could probably warp any story that way, with or without special glasses.

--
"Hello, Navi." -- Iwakura Lain

ECGORDON

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

You should know better than that by now. 20th (the film studio) supported Joss all the way, even allowing him to shop the show around to other networks and allowed Universal to purchase theatrical film rights. The FOX television network is the one that killed Firefly. Please stop confusing the two separate business entities.

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:14 PM

Okay, I was just going to let this die but a link on another FFF thread fanned the flames.

First: Yes Asarian, I agree, I am being hyper critical. I used to do that as part of my college studies, "film major." I gave that up for something else but I spent enough time in classes listening to professors talk about film that I just can't help it, it's how I am when I watch movies. I usually keep it to myself on this site but someone suggested that I must have left my heart in a stone box so I decided to rant just a lil bit.

Also, I'd like you to consider that nothing is "just happens to be" in movies or tv. There's a reason for pretty much everything in every frame, and the reasoning process can make your head swim, and might even seriously disappoint you with it's coldness.

Lastly: Turns out I'm not just living in my own bubble, or at least there are some others that share my idea of "The Great Whitey."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey

"Anything you can do, he can do better. He can do anything better than you. Oh yes he can, especially if you happen to be of Asian, Pacific Islander, Indian, African, Aboriginal or Native American descent. It doesn't matter that you have spent your entire life living in the densest African jungle, being taught how to survive there since you were old enough to stand up — the moment Mighty Whitey arrives in your town (most likely as a prisoner of war, an orphan or a lost traveler), you might as well hang up your blowpipe and take up crochet because his European (and therefore superior) genetics have pretty much made you redundant."

And:

http://io9.com/5422666/when-will-white-people-stop-making-movies-like-
avatar

"Whether Avatar is racist is a matter for debate. Regardless of where you come down on that question, it's undeniable that the film - like alien apartheid flick District 9, released earlier this year - is emphatically a fantasy about race. Specifically, it's a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people. Avatar and scifi films like it give us the opportunity to answer the question: What do white people fantasize about when they fantasize about racial identity?"

"This is a classic scenario you've seen in non-scifi epics from Dances With Wolves to The Last Samurai, where a white guy manages to get himself accepted into a closed society of people of color and eventually becomes its most awesome member."

I'm not sure I agree with the second authors conclusion though:

"These are movies about white guilt. Our main white characters realize that they are complicit in a system which is destroying aliens, AKA people of color - their cultures, their habitats, and their populations. The whites realize this when they begin to assimilate into the "alien" cultures and see things from a new perspective. To purge their overwhelming sense of guilt, they switch sides, become "race traitors," and fight against their old comrades. But then they go beyond assimilation and become leaders of the people they once oppressed. This is the essence of the white guilt fantasy, laid bare. It's not just a wish to be absolved of the crimes whites have committed against people of color; it's not just a wish to join the side of moral justice in battle. It's a wish to lead people of color from the inside rather than from the (oppressive, white) outside."

I find these conversations interesting, but they don't make or break a film - Avatar is no exception. It's a ton of fun.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

TWO

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
I believe that 20th Century Fox screwed around with the Avatar script because they wanted sequels. You know Fox as the people who murdered Firefly.

You should know better than that by now. 20th (the film studio) supported Joss all the way, even allowing him to shop the show around to other networks and allowed Universal to purchase theatrical film rights. The FOX television network is the one that killed Firefly. Please stop confusing the two separate business entities.

I know that but I was ranting. Still am, too! If I had been reasonable then I couldn't make any solid connection between Avatar and Firefly. So, if I wanted to blame one person for both Avatar being rewritten, because of the sequels, with the Na'vi as blue Cherokee Indians and Firefly being canceled, I should have blamed Rupert Murdoch, not any part of Fox.

“While most American audiences have switched off at films that tackle issues of the Iraq War head on, Cameron has subversively gotten away with this simply by doing the old Star Trek (1966-9) standby of recasting the issue with alien faces and setting it on another planet. In so doing, he has produced a far more ardently outspoken anti-war work than all of the Fahrenheit 9/11 (2004)’s and their imitators put together. It’s quite a subversive touch for a film that is going to be one of the top box-office hits of 2009. Not to mention for someone like Cameron to have snuck out the front door of 20th Century Fox past Rupert Murdoch and the same studio that produces the Fox News Channel.” www.moria.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4561&Itemid=
0

P.S. -- Wish I had made a copy of the original script in 2005. I don't remember reading that Jake Sully asked Mother Nature to save her blue-skin tree-worshipers. In the finished movie, Jake says at the Tree of Souls, “Probably just talking to a tree right now. But if you're there I need to give you a heads-up.” That makes the Na'vi look dopey; the white guy does all the thinking for the blue people. “Our Great Mother doesn't take sides, Jake.” Defeatist attitude. In the script I read, Na'vi weren't passive victims without the white-man's leadership.

'Avatar': Why do conservatives hate the most popular movie in years?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2010/01/avatar-why-do-
conservatives-hate-the-most-popular-movie-in-years.html

"The White Messiah fable is the oft-repeated story about a manly young adventurer who goes into the wilderness in search of thrills and profit. But, once there, he meets the native people and finds that they are noble and spiritual and pure. And so he emerges as their Messiah, leading them on a righteous crusade against his own rotten civilization... Once a director selects the White Messiah fable, he or she doesn’t have to waste time explaining the plot because everybody knows roughly what’s going to happen... Cameron has simply used these familiar bromides as shorthand to give his special-effects spectacular some resonance." www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/opinion/08brooks.html

“...the Na'vi are an almost offensively reductive cartoon of the noble savage...”
http://www.avclub.com/articles/going-navi-why-avatars-politics-are-mor
e-revolutio,36604/

ZEEK

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 5:54 PM

I think I forgot to mention a couple things that were jarring IMO.

Select to view spoiler:

unobtainium? Come on is that not the cheesiest name they could have come up with? That should have taken about 5 seconds to notice how everyone immediately rolls their eyes when they hear it. It shouldn't even have made it to a market research phase much less into the movie.

Jake getting lost was plain silly. You're telling me these super expensive genetically engineered avatars don't have GPS tracking? What kind of future is this? I would think they'd be far beyond our GPS technology by then. Heck couldn't they get their computers to show them what the avatar is seeing at the very least? That could have helped them narrow down the search.

All his getting lost really did was give the story a way for him to be introduced to the navi. They could have just as easily walked over to a navi camp and had those little spirit things jump all over him and the story is right back to where it needs to be.

ECGORDON

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 7:13 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium#Science_fiction

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knightreyeder:

I was part of the over the top crowd that saw Star Wars 20+ times back in the days it was still in theaters. That movie blew away everything before it...

...I've been waiting since 1977 to get blown away the way I was by Star Wars.....and Avatar finally did it. It's about time too! I saw it in both 2D and 3D and let me say the 2D was stunning enough to blow me away. The 3d was just a great way to see it again!

Cameron's the man now.

Cameron would find that to be high praise indeed , and quite gratifying...

James Cameron emerged from his first viewing of Star Wars as an angry young man .

An angry , frustrated 22-year-old truck driver , model builder , and sketcher of science fiction concepts...

Star Wars was the sort of movie that Cameron was inclined to make , were he a moviemaker...

Star Wars turned out to change the course of his life . And , as the saying goes , the rest is history...

Avatar is the film James Cameron had in mind to make...and he's spent his life getting to this point .

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/11/ff_avatar_cameron/

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/11/ff_avatar_movie/

STORYMARK

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:52 PM

Well, it's a simplified, truncated form of the movie he's been waiting so long to make. His original script-ment was rather deeper in theme, plot and character.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:15 PM

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni1372717/

'...News regarding the adaptation of Fred Van Lente and Andrew Foley's "Cowboys and Aliens" has put fans of the sci-fi western source material on something of a seesaw...

According to The Daily Beast, however, there's a few details fans can count on: Favreau is on board to direct and the Dreamworks film begins shooting this July.

Of course, there's still a bit of room for speculation, with Tdb wondering if the more than $1 billion to-date box office success of James Cameron's "Avatar" might entice filmmakers to render "Cowboys and Aliens" in 3-D.'

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2010/01/05/cowboys-and-aliens-to-begin-shoot
ing-this-july-possibly-in-3-d/

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 11:49 PM

Alas, I must spoiler the entire bit here.

Select to view spoiler:

FYI, Two - I regarded that the Na'vi were at some point high tech to be all but a given as their environment and even themselves seemed rather clearly engineered, nature can do that, but it's messier, and as "clean", for lack of a better word, as their system was pointed straight at it.

That's why I thought reverse-engineering their biotech would be so valuable even to a boneheaded corpie, cause it was something we might have the potential to replicate even if we had to clone it.

As for Eiwa, many folk believe Earth has something of that kind of consciousness itself, but much less potent and aware, almost a distant subconscious form of it, but that's a topic for it's own thread, I think.

-F

KNIGHTREYEDER

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 4:24 AM

My first viewing caught the unobtainium silliness and it's bugged me since as well. As thorough as this film is, that name alone leaves an off tone resonance that lasts....the only blatant 'nit pick' thing I can't let go of.

He is however, forgiven since the rest is food for the imagination, a feast for the eyes and raw fun, plain and simple.

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
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Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:01 PM

If you think the name "unobtanium" is silly.... you should maybe do some research.

Short version, the element in the movie is used for room-temprature superconductors. Scientists and Engineers spent years trying to develop just such a material.

Guess what they called it.....?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ZEEK

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
If you think the name "unobtanium" is silly.... you should maybe do some research.

Short version, the element in the movie is used for room-temprature superconductors. Scientists and Engineers spent years trying to develop just such a material.

Guess what they called it.....?

I'm betting they called it something incredibly silly.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:42 PM

Well, the sillyness of the name is debatable. Nonetheless, it's been a word in the scientific community for a couple decades, is likely what such a substance would be called upon discovery, and was not something Cameron just made-up.

So, if folks want to be anal and say it was stupid to call something by it's name... well, like I said, they should perhaps do a little research before sounding like a fool.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

CYBERSNARK

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:46 PM

I also had my suspicions about where the Na'vi came from, since their anatomy doesn't match anything else on Pandora.

Every other complex life-form on the moon was shown to have six limbs. The Na'vi only had four.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:55 PM

Interesting observation.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, January 7, 2010 3:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I'm a lot more critical of movies by directors that I have a great deal of respect for. Cameron, tons of respect. I think Aliens is one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever produced, he broke the mold with that film in so many ways. Since then, perhaps unfairly, I have come to expect that he might get close to repeating those heights with his following films. With Avatar he did break new ground with many very special/incredible effects, alone they are worth many viewings (I'll be buying the disk as soon as it's out). But the story and characterizations, sorry, it makes sense when you know that he had the initial ideas in the 70s, very early in his career.

@HK - I think where we might not be seeing eye to eye starts here: You said, "Where in Jake's actions in service of the native people's cause do you see his "arrogance?" I don't see HIS arrogance, - that's not my beef - I see Cameron's arrogance, I see Hollywood's arrogance, I see White Male America's story telling arrogance - ya know, it's all about them. So the white guy turns around and does good - it's the fact that it's HIS story and not Michelle Rodriguez' character's story, or any other non-white, non-male story that I'm talking about.

Hey pizmo,

Sorry if this is catching up with you too late and you've moved on. I totally understand if that's the case, but even though I've been busy with other things this week I keep thinking back to this conversation.

Mixing art and politics is always tricky, a balancing act, I think. All too often we shoot the messenger--blame the art for the culture, the artist for bringing up complex, unpleasant and unanswered questions as if he created them; blame Taxi Driver for Hinkley, Marilyn Manson for Columbine. It's particularly on these hot-button, largely intractable problems like racism, or our culture's fascination with violence, or the marginalization of anything resembling the female, or the massive "karmic debt" (if you will) of the white race--these issues over which we feel the most powerless, that we blame the artist as somehow an instigator. Surely there is such a thing as corrupt art, but I try to er on the side of the artist, try to ask only that they "hold the mirror up to nature," give me a clear picture to look at and find what meaning I can.

In the first much more combative draft of my last post, I'd asked if casting Denzel Washington in the lead would make any difference to you. At the time I thought the question was merely incendiary, but the more I read, I kinda get the feeling that casting him would make a difference, y'know? It seems like that could have really solved your problem entirely. But if Mr. Washington were cast in the lead, wouldn't the movie be pushed over the brink into some sorta "White People are Just Bad" scenario?

I think there are serious problems with western culture, serious problems with western political thinking. A lot of us folks, caught in the western system are trying to opt out. I think opting out of the system, even opposing it when we can, is a worthy story, an heroic story. I guess you'd prefer something on the order of Little Big Man or Dances with Wolves, where White Guy becomes just another schmo in the tribe. Seems Jake Sully's specific heroism is the problem. White men shouldn't be heroes in a multi-cultural story. But in my experience, white guys need to take a constructive part in the multi-cultural story more than anyone. And if he's heroic about it, well, good for him!

I find it pretty ironic, actually, that you express such respect for Cameron on the one hand, and attack his gender politics on the other. Cameron has made his career largely on two blisteringly bad-ass, grown up female lead characters in a genre (sci-fi) otherwise obsessed with male adolescent fantasy only. Heroic actions by a White Guy on behalf of an Oppressed People?

So he makes Aliens in which Lt. Ripley does all the heavy lifting, then two Terminator movies in which Sarah Connor saves the world; and h

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, January 7, 2010 3:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm betting they called it something incredibly silly.

They called it "unobtainium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

Quote:
Engineers have long (since at least the 1950s[2]) used the term unobtainium when referring to unusual or costly materials, or when theoretically considering a material perfect for their needs in all respects save that it doesn't exist. By the 1990s the term was in wide use, even in formal engineering papers such as "Towards unobtainium [new composite materials for space applications]".[3] The word unobtainium may well have been coined within the aerospace industry to refer to materials capable of withstanding the extreme temperatures expected in reentry. Aerospace engineers are frequently tempted to design aircraft which require parts with strength or resilience beyond that of currently available materials.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CLJOHNSTON108

Thursday, January 7, 2010 8:17 PM

I found this link on another board...
http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/avatar-now-2-all-time-grossing-movie
-and-in-just-20-days/
...and I really like this person's comment:

Quote:
I worked on ‘Terminator 2′ and ‘Titanic’ and have to say this about James – he expects too much – and that, ladies and gentlemen is exactly why he is now the envy of everyone. When the ink dries, be it black or red, it only matters that the art and effort was beyond outrageous. I’m very, very happy for the outrageousness of James Cameron.

Comment by Kilroywassomewhere — January 7, 2010 @ 2:36 am

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, January 9, 2010 2:58 AM

Great quotes , C-L !

Avatar is still kicking butt and taking names , by way of this report :

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=b_o_weekend&dept=Film

ECGORDON

Saturday, January 9, 2010 3:15 AM

I don't think it will break Titanic's domestic totals, but it shouldn't have trouble getting the top spot for global sales.

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I don't think it will break Titanic's domestic totals, but it shouldn't have trouble getting the top spot for global sales.

Wouldn't bet against it at this point...

Haven't verified this yet , but I heard it reported yesterday that the film had already busted the billion-dollar mark globally...

Considering that it's been released for less than a month , that's remarkable , and it shows signs of having good 'legs'...

Yours is a good point , though...

This isn't exactly a chick-flick where everybody dies...

ECGORDON

Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:18 PM

As of last weekend the world wide total was around $1.15 billion, and it just cracked the $400 million mark domestically this weekend.

According to the following link, Titanic's world wide gross was $1.8354 billion, and Avatar is already at #2 on that list.

http://www.worldwideboxoffice.com/

Avatar has close to $600 million more to go to top Titanic globally, and around $200 million for domestic. It still needs about $130 million to pass The Dark Knight on the domestic charts.

Of course we have to take inflation and higher prices for 3D showings into account. I would like to see some figures on actual number of tickets sold. If anyone can find such statistics please let me know. I would be willing to bet the top spot on that list would be either Gone With The Wind or Snow White due to the numerous times they've be re-released.

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:12 PM

Behold the power of 3D - and more praise if you're a capitalist for Cameron's Vision:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2636&p=l.htm

Jan 11, 2010

Over the weekend, Avatar generated $50.3 million, breaking the record for biggest fourth weekend gross previously held by Titanic's $28.7 million. It was down just 27 percent, giving it the best hold among nationwide releases. Its IMAX venues alone were down 14 percent, accounting for an estimated $7.5 million of the weekend.

Avatar raged past the $400 million mark in a mere 23 days, the second-fastest to the mark behind only The Dark Knight. Its $430.8 million tally by day 24 made it the top-grossing movie from 2009, beating Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, as well as the seventh-highest grossing picture of all time, surpassing Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. On Monday, Avatar will top Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace and E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, to claim fifth place.

In terms of attendance, though, Avatar would likely barely make the Top 100, which is still sensational. That's due in part to the ticket price premium of the picture's 3D presentations. 3D has made up $335.4 million or 78 percent of the total."

Brilliant if you are looking for ways to bump the gross, "how do we make more from each consumer?" Theaters that were previously hedging on 3D have to be lining up to get the projectors installed. Yes, there are definitely more costs involved but since Cameron helped create the cameras he'll gain on that end too.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

SHISHAKLI

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:25 PM

There's only one thing that bothers me about real-d (3d) cinema... and that is the loss of focus due to apperature (sp?)

It's normal for standard cinematography to have one plane of depth in focus with the foreground and background out of focus... but I feel this becomes redundant with 3d.

When viewing 3d, and something in the foreground is out of focus, you can look at it, but you can't MAKE it focus. To me that destroys the illusion of 3d.

Occasionally a scene will have nearly all of the elements in focus, and they were the best. You could let your eyes wonder into the foreground and background and really enjoy the scenery in all it's 3d detail.

Now I know that having a fully rendered 3d scene is easy to have entirely in focus. But many people might not be aware that the technology exists for standard live video to be also in focus, from 1 inch to infinity. The technology was developed and patented by an Australian cameraman and used on the gardening show "Burkes Backyard". Unfortunately no-one was willing to pay the man the money he deserved for the technology to hit the mainstream.

I'm now wondering what he's doing with that patent... because with the re-invention of 3d cinema, that simple "trick" might become a high demand standard in the near future.

I'll shut up now ;)

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:19 PM

I'd love to hear more about that discovery!

I know of 3 things that effect depth of field:

1. aperture
2. focal length of lens
3. sensor size (film or digital)

These seem like pretty immutable physical laws to me, all the more reason I'd like to hear what this guy came up with - multiple cameras shooting simultaneously at different focus points?

I agree with you about the differences between our live 3d and a film's version of it. I think for most people it won't make that much difference. It feels like 3D has reached a tipping point (Espn is going to have a 3D channel - great for out door sports) and whether it is better than 2D HD doesn't really seem to matter; it's new, it's very cool, and it's getting a lot of buzz.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:33 PM

From an AP story :

Vatican Says 'Avatar' Is No Masterpiece
Film Opens In Italy Friday

http://www.clickondetroit.com/atthemovies/22214400/detail.html

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