Did the 'Companion' thing ever bug you in Firefly?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, February 7, 2026 14:42
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ALIASSE

Friday, February 19, 2010 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...my thinking is, in the Core, that same feeling might not be attached, or people might not take it as seriously...Maybe the problem with Inara is that she has some kind of core world "sex isn't very important, it's just for fun" mindset. So to her, maybe it's not the sex that's important, maybe for Inara, sex DOES fit into a list of more vanilla comfort activities. For Inara, maybe it's the RITUALS associated with the sex that's important, rituals that come from being a companion.

Not take it seriously? If that is the case then the human race will have evolved beyond recognition! - have they also gone off food and death? :)

How could a ritual be that important? How could a ritual be more important than sex, unless it is ENTIRELY a religious/quasi-religious thing - in which case, how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, February 19, 2010 9:48 PM

Bytemite wrote

Quote:
Ehm... I have to disagree with you on the first part, about Mal thinking ahead. Mal has always struck me as a pretty impulsive, "flying by the seat of his pants and change course on the turn of a dime" kind of guy. He says and does PLENTY of things that it seems to me he's kicking himself about later, even if they seem necessary at the time (and sometimes they aren't). Look at his terse comments to Kaylee in Shindig, or in the movie, after they leave Haven, and he goes to the shuttle and kind of just pauses there to absorb what he's done. He probably did have to do this, but turning Serenity into a Reaver ship and defiling their friends is a very "shoot the poor diseased dog" kind of thing. The thing is, a lot of his ideas are good ideas, so even though he has absolutely TERRIBLE luck, he's able to adjust on the fly and save as many people as possible, which makes him a good captain. Mal isn't the chessmaster, thinking several moves ahead. That's River.

Well I couldn't disagree more. Impulsive! No Mal thinks about his moves. They may appear impulsive but actually he has usually thought the situation through first. More through benefit of experience.

1 - The deploying of the 'Cry Babies' in SERENITY pilot episode
2 - The removal of the Pulse Beacon in SERENITY the Movie.
3 - Using the Reavers to engage in battle with the Operative and allow his/Serenity's escape.
4 - Allowing Saffron to 'organise' the taking of the Lassiter in "Trash"
5 - Taking River along with the 'Vault job' in Serenity the Movie
6 - Posting Jayne as sniper to take out Patience's men in pilot
7 - Shooting the Alliance officer as he's climbing out of the wrecked ship in SERENITY the movie.

I could go on... And River doesn't think ahead - she has seen ahead and therefore knows what's coming. Whole different ball game.

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If it's not about jealousy, why does it upset Mal so much? And why should it hurt Inara?

I'm not sure what you mean here? Do you mean why does he get upset at Inara's occupation? It's not jealousy. Inara's clients don't get closer to Inara than Mal so why would he be jealous? She isn't in love with her clients. If you think it's because they have sex with Inara and Mal doesn't well I'd suggest that love goes beyond just sex. But that's my take on it.

Quote:
And also, is this really something Mal does? Hurt people he cares about in a pre-calculated way? He hurts them, no question about, and insults them, but it always seems to me like he was just being insensitive, speaking off the cuff, or that he was mad and not really in control of what he was saying. If it's pre-calculated to rub in Inara's face and hurt her, isn't that a little sadistic?

As stated before, they'd reached an impass. It's a deliberate intent to spark a reaction from Inara. You've heard the old addage about when someone is cheating they're usually waiting to be caught out... Same thing.

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This is quite a bit different from telling Simon that Kaylee's dead and terrifying the poor boy into thinking he and his sister are a few minutes from airlock city. That was a mean joke. I don't really think either he or Inara thought his night with Nandi was funny.

Good examples of how twisted Mal can be.

Quote:
And it's almost like you're suggesting Inara needs to be hurt to be shown the error of her ways... Almost like she deserves it?

From Mal's point of view YES. In the past Mal has; insulted, humiliated, and challenged Inara about her occupation, and [in his mind] it didn't sink in. She still continues to be a companion. So he takes upon the opportunity with Nandi as a last ditch effort. Bare in mind the only other occassion that a woman showed interest in Mal was Saffron and that resulted in HIS humilitation. So with Nandi it's a chance to even the score a little. It's a situation Inara is all too familiar with and if she really is as confortable with her occupation as she would have Mal believe then she surely wouldn't have a problem with him engaging with Nandi...?

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:02 PM

Pizmobeach wrote:

Quote:
Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

No Mal has an old fashioned honour. It's not just about knocking boots. Look at the way he did his level best to resist Saffron in 'Our Mrs Reynolds' (In fact a little too much! If that episode had any realism he'd have been doing the whoopee in zero gravity with Saffron in a nanosecond!!!!) but Mal has honour.

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:05 PM

So despite what she's facing, it doesn't lend any sort of sensitivity or consideration to Inara's behaviour, which in general is clueless, naive, selfish, and immature. Meanwhile, Mal is right about everything he says and does. And he doesn't get jealous?

We really do have different takes on all of this. ^_^'

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:14 PM

Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

And what with birth control, maybe sex in the core doesn't symbolize sacred creation or romantic/marriage union anymore. Maybe what people think of as meaningful and indication of attachment is pregnancy. Except for single mothers and in vitro fertilization, which is probably also popular.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So despite what she's facing, it doesn't lend any sort of sensitivity or consideration to Inara's behaviour, which in general is clueless, naive, selfish, and immature. Meanwhile, Mal is right about everything he says and does. And he doesn't get jealous?

We really do have different takes on all of this. ^_^'

Oh you miss understand me. I'm not justifying Mal's actions, I'm merely explaning why his character does what he does. I'm on Inara's side. In fact I've said many times how that scene of her breaking down crying, tears me up something awful. (and this was before I knew about her 'secret'). But I'm being dispassionate in terms of 'reviewing' the material. And I'm doing this within the context of the show. (Please don't think this is how conduct myself in real life!?)

Oh and yes - we do have very different viewpoints on the characters don't we. Interesting huh?

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:28 PM

Okay, so, I'm just trying to understand here. So, this is Mal's motivation for having sex with Nandi, that he secretly or not-so-secretly wants Inara to find out, so that she'll break down and cry over what a hypocrite she is. And then leave him. Because he's planned it all out ahead of time. And this is what he wanted and intended?

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:33 PM

i'm not convinced mal had even the faintest inkling that fornicating with nandi would upset inara, or even the sense that he'd get caught out. but something tells me mal probably doesn't frequent whores.

but i'm curious, byte. how does inara's "secret" add context to her little crying fit over mal's sex life? i would assume that, you know, considering how she broke down into tears right afterwards, that primacy and recency might suggest it was the main reason she was all weepy.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
Okay, so, I'm just trying to understand here. So, this is Mal's motivation for having sex with Nandi, that he secretly or not-so-secretly wants Inara to find out, so that she'll break down and cry over what a hypocrite she is.

- up to this point yes. Because it illustrates to her, first hand, how painful it is for Mal when she goes with her clients.

Quote:
And then leave him. Because he's planned it all out ahead of time. And this is what he wanted and intended?

At this point no. Inara leaving is her regaining the upper hand. This Inara knows will hurt Mal, because Mal is all about 'Family' his 'Crew', and her leaving is the first sign that all is not well with his family so much so that one is prepared to leave.

KPO

Friday, February 19, 2010 10:58 PM

Quote:
how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

Yep. The ritualistic stuff (and the therapy/life coaching stuff) seems to me a kind of 'dressing' on what is essentially a very basic physical service. Joss was trying to force the idea that Companionship is inherently noble, but ultimately the whole thing just seems a bit pretentious and vainglorious to me, Inara putting across her job so seriously and loftily.

No, the best way I have to think of the Companion service is like 'Goddess for hire' - like a Greek goddess, Athena or Aphrodite attending on you. 'The kiss of a goddess', for a night. And that's quite a service.

But ultimately it's illusory isn't it? It's a mere human woman - just a very pretty one; who has undergone years of training to be refined, classy, graceful; who has learnt psychological techniques to put you at ease etc. - in short, knows everything to provide that 'goddess' experience.

A good-hearted woman could enjoy that I conjure, and find it fulfilling, bringing 'divine' joy and pleasure to the lives of the men and women she selects. But it's an illusion, and money changes hands.

If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Heads should roll

RUGBUG

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:29 PM

1. The companion thing did bug me, mostly because the 'sex is power' thing bugs me. Sex isn't power for men, why does it always end up that way for women? And what does 'sex is power" mean for older women who aren't as sexually attractive? I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to throw it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

3. Interesting reads on HOG. I have to admit I'm a little slack-jawed at some interpretations. My take is along the lines of Bytemite...except that Mal was actually acting as a companion. Nandi needs the comforting and release, Mal's just a willing participant for that release. Inara even correlates Mal sleeping with Nandi as companionship. That isn't to say that Mal doesn't benefit: he opens up more with Nandi than he does with his crew...but I think that's a factor of Nandi's training...she knows how to draw him out, and his own lack of true companionship.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:43 PM

So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

When Inara leaves, and regains the upper hand, does that negate the sympathy you say you had for her when she was crying about Mal and Nandi?

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:44 PM

Mincingbeast: It's because what Mal and Nandi had, Inara can't ever have herself. Or at least that's what I think.

KPO

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:47 PM

Good points Rugbug.

Quote:
I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

And Nandi perhaps? (a bit similar to Patience, though with some sexual power admittedly)

How about Zoe? The kick-ass variety of female power? Or River - kick-ass + superhuman ability?

Just a little curious on how women view male representations of powerful women...

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:50 PM

Quote:
1. The companion thing did bug me, mostly because the 'sex is power' thing bugs me. Sex isn't power for men, why does it always end up that way for women? And what does 'sex is power" mean for older women who aren't as sexually attractive? I prefer the power of someone like Patience. :D

Wasn't always this way. Back in Greek and Roman times, it was WOMEN who theoretically couldn't control themselves around MEN. So the men supposedly had the power then, and it justified rape in a lot of cases.

But you're right, it's pretty dumb. It's not like there aren't both men and women who crave sex, and men and women who couldn't care less.

Quote:
2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to through it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

Now this I agree with. The sad thing is, I think Inara does think people are her friends, because this IS a way in which she is naive.

But that doesn't mean that's how it is with companions, or that companions are offering anything more than what's on the package. I think that's a personality issue with Inara more than it is her profession, because of the point about objectivity I brought up earlier, I doubt companions are encouraged to make friends with clients.

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Pizmobeach wrote:

Quote:
Very interesting Som. When I first read your post I thought, "hmmmm.... that's pretty good!" But the more I think about it the more I think Mal just wanted to f*ck. In fact, he's just that much of a clod that he DOESN'T think those kinds of things through, which only ads to Inara's pain. "He didn't even have the decency to think about how it would affect me!"

No Mal has an old fashioned honour. It's not just about knocking boots. Look at the way he did his level best to resist Saffron in 'Our Mrs Reynolds' (In fact a little too much! If that episode had any realism he'd have been doing the whoopee in zero gravity with Saffron in a nanosecond!!!!) but Mal has honour.

Saffron appeared to be an innocent castaway, nearly a slave that was left on the ship, whereas Nandi was an Ex-Companion, very different. There's respect and hospitality for the wayward stranger and then there's LUST for a Companion that has training.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, February 19, 2010 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

Yes - This is a Joss show after all, and he frequently shows the ugly side of people falling in love.

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When Inara leaves, and regains the upper hand, does that negate the sympathy you say you had for her when she was crying about Mal and Nandi?

No not at all. I understood the characters choice as a consequence. This is why Joss' work is so interesting, especially when it comes to character. He gives 'reasons' as to why his characters do what they do. As a viewer it puts you in an unusual position. The hero often does unheroic things and this causes you to shift loyalties. It's pretty clever stuff.

MINCINGBEAST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Mincingbeast: It's because what Mal and Nandi had, Inara can't ever have herself. Or at least that's what I think.

sex? not to be flippant. mal and nandi had sex. or do you mean, connection, time, etc...?

actually, hate to say it, but i really liked mal and nandi as a couple (horrible acting performance aside).

BYTEMITE

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:08 AM

Quote:
If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Now here's an interesting thought...

It seems to me like Inara is only defensive about her profession to Mal and people who belittle it because it's her source of independence.

It also seems to me like Inara is someone who has layers. So what if she DOES have a sense of humour about it with people who aren't constantly putting her down and disrespecting her?

Like, maybe to the people who are jerks about it, she acts the way she does to keep up the mystique?

But for someone like Jayne, asking if she has some funny whoring stories, she doesn't have to act all offended. Though she does have to respect her clients privacy.

You comment makes me wonder, do we really know how Inara feels about her job? I don't think it's negative, otherwise she wouldn't defend it, but what if she doesn't really take it seriously?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:12 AM

Som: I have to say, if your interpretation of Mal and Inara's characters are correct, and they really are that petty, shallow, and spiteful, I can't say I really like them much or have much sympathy for them.

I should rewatch the series and try to see it from your perspective. I might be surprised to find myself agreeing, and start to hate the two of them. I wonder if this would change my enjoyment of Firefly? For the longest time, I've had kind of the most interest in the Mal and Inara dynamic, because they're so fascinating to watch. If I were to suddenly find both characters utterly unlikeable, would I be as interested in Firefly as I am? It's an interesting question, and definitely something I should look into.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:12 AM

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Quote:
Saffron appeared to be an innocent castaway, nearly a slave that was left on the ship, whereas Nandi was an Ex-Companion, very different. There's respect and hospitality for the wayward stranger and then there's LUST for a Companion that has training.

LUST has no reason!!! It would NOT stand aside and say here's an innocent.... or is that just the fact that I find Saffron (Christina) to be a Nerve-Shattering-Redhead!!!! Must be me but I'd drink her bath water! Did I just type that aloud?!

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
2. With the job title being "Companion" there is a lot more than just sex. A companion isn't trying to be "friends" with someone, that requires the client knowing and caring about the companion as a person. Rather, the companion is being a friend to the client...always on the giving side, never the receiving. They are listening, comforting, pleasing the client It's all about the client. That is no friendship. Can attachments/fondness form? Absolutely, but it is still very one-sided and therefore not friendship. IMO, it's the reason Inara is so offended by Atherton's offer of keeping her. He is not interested in her as a companion but simply as a whore. Inara kidded herself into believing that he cared for her as a person. When she tries to throw it back at Mal, it falls flat because he knows they don't care for her on that level.

Now this I agree with. The sad thing is, I think Inara does think people are her friends, because this IS a way in which she is naive.

But that doesn't mean that's how it is with companions, or that companions are offering anything more than what's on the package. I think that's a personality issue with Inara more than it is her profession, because of the point about objectivity I brought up earlier, I doubt companions are encouraged to make friends with clients.

Dang...you quoted my sad misspelling (and some grammar, punctuation errors I don't care to fix). :)

Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

I think Inara's weakness is that she craves for more, she wants a companion of her own, but she can never allow that to happen.

(Please note: my perspectives are all based upon not knowing Inara's secret. I haven't pursued that answer, I don't read fan-fic, etc. I'm mostly okay with the 'verse as it is. Some pondering is fun, getting actual answers, though can be unsatisfying. I guess I now know the secret, but just from quick glances on this thread).

KPO: Nandi's power is more appealing to me than a companion's. But, while Nandi stepped out of the role of companion/whore, she is still using sex to gain whatever measure of power she can. I can take a step back from that and see her as a businesswoman, using the markets available to her, which is the appealing aspect.

(And oddly, while I affirm Zoe's power, she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D )

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

BYTEMITE

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:21 AM

I dunno, I can still see and respect Inara as a business women. I think she drove a hard bargain in Out of Gas.

Quote:
Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

That seems pretty unethical to me. Pride in manipulating people?

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
Som: I have to say, if your interpretation of Mal and Inara's characters are correct, and they really are that petty, shallow, and spiteful, I can't say I really like them much or have much sympathy for them.

I should rewatch the series and try to see it from your perspective. I might be surprised to find myself agreeing, and start to hate the two of them.

Oh dear really?! I hate to think I've caused you to think that. :(

Deep down I like to think Joss and his writers draw from reality (not immitate but draw from) and embue his characters with traits witnessed/experinced in real life.

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
So you think hurting each other is intentional on both their parts?

Yes - This is a Joss show after all, and he frequently shows the ugly side of people falling in love.

I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?

One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I dunno, I can still see and respect Inara as a business women. I think she drove a hard bargain in Out of Gas.

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Anyway, I never saw Inara viewing her clients as anything more than that...although I do think she takes some pride in their attachment to her. Afterall, attachment would be a sign of a job well done and who doesn't want to take pride in their work. :D

That seems pretty unethical to me. Pride in manipulating people?

Oops...no. Not what I meant. Not pride in manipulation, but pride in meeting the need.

(And yes, I respect Inara as a business woman...and as a person. Her care of Fess Higgins, how she stood up to his father, etc was commendable.)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

BYTEMITE

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:28 AM

Som: Don't worry about it. This is good. I joined in this fray to try to understand other people's perspectives and see if I find something new to explore. This definitely qualifies.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:35 AM

Originally posted by RugBug:

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I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Fair point. I think hurt was a by product of his action, rather than the intent. The intent was maybe to inform Inara of how her actions as a companion hurts him [Mal].

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Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?

Yeah, OK maybe. I'll just about conceed with this one although I think it's significant that it's Nandi (Inara's friend, and not just any 'whore'). I mean Inara is inviting Mal to a whore house, obviously he would be tempted, and Inara would be aware of that, but did Inara really think he'd go through with it? And with Nandi... To me everything that Mal has done in the past contradict his actions with Nandi - But you make a very good point. It's enough I must admit.

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One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

I think when you are in love with someone you also want to believe that that someone loves you back... So I think it's fair to assume that Inara believes/knows that Mal has feeling for her....

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Som: Don't worry about it. This is good. I joined in this fray to try to understand other people's perspectives and see if I find something new to explore. This definitely qualifies.

Thank you Bytemite. Likewise. And honestly I'm now going to go to bed and watch Hearts Of Gold from what you were saying earlier - so thanks.

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Quote:
I can agree that at times, both Mal and Inara intentionally hurt each other. Mal calling her whore, Inara calling him petty thief, etc. But I cannot believe that Mal slept with Nandi to hurt Inara. If he wanted to hurt her, he would've slept with Saffron.

Fair point. I think hurt was a by product of his action, rather than the intent. The intent was maybe to inform Inara of how her actions as a companion hurts him [Mal].

Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
Mal slept with Nandi because there was romantic lighting, imminent danger, fine rice wine, good company and a willing partner. How many untethered (and sadly, tethered) adults wouldn't get busy in that scenario?
Yeah, OK maybe. I'll just about conceed with this one although I think it's significant that it's Nandi (Inara's friend, and not just any 'whore'). I mean Inara is inviting Mal to a whore house, obviously he would be tempted, and Inara would be aware of that, but did Inara really think he'd go through with it? And with Nandi... To me everything that Mal has done in the past contradict his actions with Nandi - But you make a very good point. It's enough I must admit.

Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
One thing I might agree with you on, however: Inara finally realizes what it's like for Mal when she sleeps with clients. But that only holds true if she believes that Mal has real feelings for her, rather than just attraction/curiosity. I think it's more likely, though, that she just realizes the depth of her feelings for Mal and has to run away from them, knowing that they can never really be together.

I think when you are in love with someone you also want to believe that that someone loves you back... So I think it's fair to assume that Inara believes/knows that Mal has feeling for her....

I think we WANT to believe that someone loves us back...but that most of the time, we play the "does he/doesn't he" dance, and which side we end up on depends on the day..and his recent actions. Inara has enough confidence and experience to know that Mal is attracted to her has some feelings but the depth of them is unknown. And in a way, feelings are trivial to the situation, because Inara is the one with the power. Mal cannot be with her if she's a companion but he won't ask her to give up her career. Inara won't give up her career for him. They are at an impasse. She can't fool herself any longer so she needs to remove herself.

Been there, done that. Have the T-shirt. (which could cloud my opinions. :D)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

KPO

Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:55 AM

Quote:
or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

lol don't worry, it wasn't a leading question. But did you mean what you said with:

Quote:
she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

Not sure if you were being mysterious (which is cool) or a mistype...?

Heads should roll

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:08 AM

Originally posted by RugBug:

Quote:
Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

No because Saffron as far as Mal knew was not a companion. This was the necessary element that made Nandi so significant to highlight his point. The other thing against Saffron being 'used' like that is that actually Mal could see Inara was hurt from when they were all in the cargo bay. So sleeping with Saffrom was irrelevant. Also at that point Mal and Inara are still trading petty blows with one another. By the time Hearts of Gold comes along more time has passed between them without a resolve - as you say an impass - so tougher measures were necessary.

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Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.

Yes true. Saffron did get him to talk about his mother though

Quote:
I think we WANT to believe that someone loves us back...but that most of the time, we play the "does he/doesn't he" dance, and which side we end up on depends on the day..and his recent actions. Inara has enough confidence and experience to know that Mal is attracted to her has some feelings but the depth of them is unknown. And in a way, feelings are trivial to the situation, because Inara is the one with the power. Mal cannot be with her if she's a companion but he won't ask her to give up her career. Inara won't give up her career for him. They are at an impasse. She can't fool herself any longer so she needs to remove herself.

Absolutely

Quote:
Been there, done that. Have the T-shirt. (which could cloud my opinions. :D)

Dito

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
or maybe I'm not a huge fan of Gina's. (don't hate me). :D

lol don't worry, it wasn't a leading question. But did you mean what you said with:

Quote:
she was the character I liked the least, possibly because I identify with her the most...

Not sure if you were being mysterious (which is cool) or a mistype...?

Heads should roll

Nope, meant it...although know it sounds a bit self-loathing. Not my intention, but she doesn't challenge me the way some of the other characters do. I feel like I've got her pretty figured out so she's a bit bland to me.

Really though, a lot of it has to do with not liking Gina...and that's because I saw her on Angel first and REALLY hated the character. (she also breathes really loud sometimes which grates on me. So petty but it's the truth).

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

RUGBUG

Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:
Again, Saffron would've worked if the intent was to show Inara what it felt like to be on the other side. Now, I wouldn't put it past Mal to come up with this as an after thought 'she does the same thing to me all the time' justification for hurting her. But proceeding with the action on that intent...I just can't believe it. I would have to loathe Mal...and I can't do that.

No because Saffron as far as Mal knew was not a companion. This was the necessary element that made Nandi so significant to highlight his point. The other thing against Saffron being 'used' like that is that actually Mal could see Inara was hurt from when they were all in the cargo bay. So sleeping with Saffrom was irrelevant. Also at that point Mal and Inara are still trading petty blows with one another. By the time Hearts of Gold comes along more time has passed between them without a resolve - as you say an impass - so tougher measures were necessary.

Nandi being a companion meant there should be no strings attached with the sex. As for as Mal is concerned there would've been strings for Saffron. Mal only lets strings exist if HE says they can. He doesn't want them with Saffron, so can't sleep with her. He doesn't have to worry about them with Nandi.

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
Mal is not tempted by just anyone. That's Jayne and his 'willin' women'. Mal needs more than willing, he needs a connection. He found that with Nandi. Saffron was willing, but there was no connection, although she did an excellent job of getting him to the point that connection or not, he would've had a hard time saying no.
Yes true. Saffron did get him to talk about his mother though

Yep. Mal wants to open up...craves it in fact..but can't with people close to him. Saffron isn't close (and won't be close) and therefore she's SAFE. She's giving to Mal what companion's give their clients...and has in fact had that type of training.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

THESCARREDMAN

Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:59 AM

I have to agree with R. A. Heinlein on the subject: "Nearly the most ridiculous notion people have ever entertained is the belief that something a woman has an endless supply of is nevertheless merchandise to be hoarded and bartered. That being said, if I were a woman raised in twentieth-century America, I would want at least a ruby necklace rather than just dinner and a show."

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It comes from the idea that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one, yet I would have been tempted to use the service from someone else's daughter in my 20's. The inherent hypocracy there is the source of the discomfort, I conjure.

And yeah, this culture is whack when it comes to sex roles.

I totally agree with this. Which I think you can take a step further and point it right back at men. What wouldn't we want our daughter or sister in such a profession? To me it's because we know the male mindset all too well. There are plenty of men who would treat those women as nothing but a piece of meat. Most guys probably feel some guilt thinking that they've at the very least fantasied about a purely physical encounter without a single thought about a woman's personality or feelings. So, for guys it probably all comes back to self guilt really. That's my guess at least.

"Piece of meat"---the whole POINT is that this is REPEATEDLY and POINTEDLY a "business" transaction. Inara says it, Mal says it, Nandi says it, Wash...
Okay.

What are you saying when you get on the Cortex to contract a Companion?

"I want a nice person I can count on whose qualities (including flaws) I appreciate on a deep, over-time human level."

No--you want the temporary, glorious experience of being entertained, feasting your eyes and ears and spirit and whatever else on the cultivated presence of Love Potion #9 in human form. Thus the money. Thus the various "I'd tap that" comments in this thread(TMI, guys, thanks). Thus the "I'd contract one, but wouldn't let my daughter do it".

Meat, people.

Seriously, I think the only reason Mal might actually "love" Inara is he hates this whole persona. Which is the thing people pay her for, and I think the further objectification of women, though she is on the highest pedestal yet. I think this may be intended as ironic.

The whole point is that, under all the pretty, business transactors must view each other on a primary level AS meat. Doesn't mean they can't like each other, or play fair. But Inara being this as a professional means that things must stay in the business category. (Thus her often-repeated rule about not servicing crew or friends...)

Theripists, whatever kind they are, can be kind, can be helpful, can be comforting, can even help you turn your life around. That doesn't make them friends, which from what I've heard completely complicates a therapist's mission.

This totally shoots down the "oh, it's ok if they're friends"---if she's doing her job right, they can't be "friends" in that sense. Because that would make it a friendship transaction, not a business one.

Heitara:

Someone may have posted this, but Inara's exact job description existed in the ancient Greek world and came to it's height in the ancient Roman world. (BTW, geisha were/are specifically not prostitutes, they were banned from taking that kind of client back in the 1700s, on pain of death...)

The heitara was the woman you showed off, who was endlessly more fascinating, educated, entertaining, and sexy than any legal property of yours could ever be (ie your wife).

Because your party guests lusting after your wife didn't equal more kudos to you(unlike if they wanted the companion on your arm), it meant they were going to betray the state values with the horrors of adultery and paternity disruption.

Point being, I don't think that Inara's profession has been all that changed--oooh, legal. Must be different. No, just glorified.

I also wouldn't point to her as a stunning example of equal sex roles--again, the paying thing. It's part of her JOB.

Freeing women from unequal sex roles doesn't mean showcasing them as Love Potion #9.

__

Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:17 AM

AnotherSky: Everything you just said.

I agree Mal hates it, because I do think he's the jealous type, I just think he can also simultaneously respect that she's a business woman and is apparently good at what she does. I don't think he blames her so much as he blames and LOATHES her clients.

But I also think his feelings for Inara are more than just that he hates what she does. His crew provides a sense of foundation and home, which stabilizes him. But Inara is a cause of both strong emotional responses and a calming influence, good for him because he's very angry and bitter, but there's also ways I can see that he's become emotionally numbed since the war. I kind of see Mal as trying to learn how to be human again, healing and relearning how to be normal and have normal emotional responses.

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
If Inara took an attitude towards Companioning that it was all a fun, harmless charade, and had a sense of humour about it, I would like her better.

Now here's an interesting thought...

It seems to me like Inara is only defensive about her profession to Mal and people who belittle it because it's her source of independence.

It also seems to me like Inara is someone who has layers. So what if she DOES have a sense of humour about it with people who aren't constantly putting her down and disrespecting her?

Like, maybe to the people who are jerks about it, she acts the way she does to keep up the mystique?

But for someone like Jayne, asking if she has some funny whoring stories, she doesn't have to act all offended. Though she does have to respect her clients privacy.

You comment makes me wonder, do we really know how Inara feels about her job? I don't think it's negative, otherwise she wouldn't defend it, but what if she doesn't really take it seriously?

I don't think she bothers with Jayne. That was just my interpretation.

And people will defend wobbly-headed geisha dolls, you know. And those can come with some pretty negative baggage attached. Just saying.

__

Going for a ride.

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
mal4prez, I suddenly feel like the boy in the Parade who calls out that the Emperor has no clothes on because I can’t help feeling that a Companion is a euphemism for a sex worker.
I think the show presents something different which you aren't seeing. You're interpreting things to fit your view - there never was any suggestion that Inara couldn't get her own ticket to the ball, for instance. You aren't allowing for everything that is presented.

I'll agree that this Guild thing is not something that can exist today, or even in the near future, but we're talking about 500 years from now. The whole point is that things - including the human mentality - will be different.

ETA: Also, we see Inara do much much more than have sex and drink tea! You might not see all those others things if you're excessively focused... I must admit, it is easy to get tunnel vision with Inara on screen. Even for a hetero female. :)

Quote:
And, I too, would love for women to have power by controlling their own sexuality as they desire, in the future, but I think it could have been better served and achieved by making prostitution legal, organized, accepted, and controlled by the Guild without all the unnecessary endowments of high status and social esteem which seem to have been tagged on to convince us that what Inara does is valid and valuable to maintain the social structure and culture of core worlds who embrace enlightenment and moral integrity.

Sure, the writers of the show gave her all that status to force the viewer to reexamine our assumptions about someone who would exchange sex for money. But again, that's not all there is to it. Inara wins respect and high status because there is more to her. Cause and effect: the cause is her skills, the effect is her status. Not the other way around.

Or do you really not see the skills? Is the sexual aspect that blinding?

Quote:
You have to admit, it’s a little gullible to assume that any profession in the future, especially sex work, oh, sorry Companioning, would be held in that high esteem, when none are today.
No, I don't have to admit that! In fact, I think it's a little silly to assume that the rules that apply today will still hold in 500 years. Again - look at how different everything was 100 years ago, only 1/5 of that time!

Quote:
And, any educated person can retire and do whatever they want; some marginally educated people can retire and do whatever they want… waves to our own esteemed Arnold.
I don't see how this applies. It's not about Inara retiring and doing what she wants. It's about a Companion - any Companion - having certain skills as a result of her training that would be valued by those who don't have a hang-up over her sexual history.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

I'm going to take this in a new direction. Say Inara was a geisha, to take something in a similar vein--or say she was ANY kind of private entertainer, say a private entertainer without the sex. I'm not going to make this all about the sex. Because sex is "just one of her many skills", she says it herself.

She receives pay for those skills, for the combined "package". Her status as an personal-relationship-entertainer makes her easily commodified.

I would also ask how we sort out if the Companionizing[can I use that as a verb?] is one of those good Alliance things, ugly Alliance things (like some wardrobe) or bad Alliance things (like the belief systems our heroes are always railing about)...just interested in how that got sorted for people. Any interpretations?

Another question:

How much control do you have of your own sexuality if you must be like a Jedi(forgive the analogy) and "not love"--not have "entanglements" outside your sex profession. To create the illusion for clients that they are your one obsession, it certainly can't be known that you're attached elsewhere, for free.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:46 PM

I think the Alliance sees it as good and forward thinking. They took abused women in the sex trade and gave them some power and self-determination.

Of course, this brings up the point of that R.A. Heinlein quote. There's something a little about men who say they're supportive of sex liberation among women and call it good and progressive and empowering when it really just means they get more sex. It strikes me as a conflict of interest. Especially when at the same time being all high-minded, they say that the women in question should ask for a ruby necklace instead of dinner and a movie.

The quote is inherently contradictory, first devaluing what the woman offers, "ridiculous... to be hoarded and bartered," and then encouraging that same activity, because apparently that's how women are in the modern time, unaffectionate and calculating. Everything is an exchange, so they're all whores, until they begin to sleep with men with no strings attached.

Which flies in the face of thousands of years of evolution, being that birth control wasn't invented until recently. Sorry, but from an evolutionary perspective it's pretty obvious to see who benefits most from such an agenda.

And therein perhaps lies the problem with the angle Joss approached this.

But within the verse as constructed, I still support women having choice about their profession, even if that profession is Companion. And if they have to tell themselves that contracting with them is some quasi-mystical experience, if that's what it takes for them to feel like they have some kind of independence and stability, then do what you have to girl.

Second question: Absolutely. Of course, there are examples of courtesans in France who had husbands at the time, which then you might be able to justify being paid, since as represented they might be reluctant, and the money seals the deal. But giving freely to someone who with no vows or legal recognition has been exchanged, yes, that probably does devalue what a companion might be offering. And that's very likely what that scene in Shindig was showing.

ALIASSE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
how can it be plausible that she practices religious rituals - important - and has sex with cients - highly not important - both as part of the same work? Isn't this what chrisisall's question is about?

Joss was trying to FORCE (my caps) the idea that Companionship is inherently noble...No, the best way I have to think of the Companion service is like 'Goddess for hire'...And that's quite a service. But ultimately it's illusory isn't it? It's a mere human woman - just a very pretty one; who has undergone years of training to be refined, classy, graceful; who has learnt psychological techniques to put you at ease etc. - in short, knows everything to provide that 'goddess' experience...but it's an illusion, and money changes hands.

Wow, this has put into words so well the way I see the Companion (my editing notwithstanding, which I hope you don't mind). I get the impression that those who love Inara love her for her qualities and maybe even in spite of the fact that she is a Companion - that her being a Companion has got nothing to do with loving her.

I agree that Joss was trying to force an idea but at the same time he didn't back away from showing the hour glass in the pilot - the goddess experience is time-limited and when your time's up you're out.

http://www.swooning.net/viewstory.php?sid=36&chapter=1 This is a link to a fic I've recced a few times, not only because it is gloriously smutty but also because it's the only one I've come across that convincingly portrays the utter calculation of what a Companion does. And I don't think you have to believe that the Guild manipulated and betrayed young Companions to agree that the training could have been a lot like this.

P.S. I shall be freely plagiarising chunks of this post of yours for fanfics to come, if that's all right with you mate :)

ALIASSE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Also, the tea is a distancing, respectifying (yes, that's a word ahem) thing - 'I'm not just a whore, I do really good tea ritual too and that proves it.'

Could Inara have done what she did for FH without being a Companion?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:59 PM

Quote:
But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Well, no, but the only three people we ever see in depth from the Core are Simon, Inara, and River.

River, good luck inferring anything from her. Generally River's sexuality isn't something I'm that comfortable studying anyway. She's kind of still a child.

Simon's too proper to really get a read on whether he thinks sex is important or not; obviously he's able to recognize that Mal as big brother might be dangerous if it looked like Kaylee had been taken advantage of, and might react the same way in regards to River. His reaction to Kaylee asking Inara about her appointments might be prudishness, and that's how Kaylee takes it, leading to the subsequent conversations about what's proper. But maybe he's just surprised to hear it from Kaylee, who can seem pretty innocent. At the very most, it could possibly be argued that Simon sees sex as something vulgar. But either way, it seems to me it's not something he really cares about, or maybe even thinks about much. Which again suggests that core worlders don't really see it as anything important.

And now here's Inara, who seems to think more about the ritual and therapeutic aspect of her profession than the sex.

So 2/3 Core Worlders we've been introduced to in the Firefly verse don't seem to value sex highly. It's a small sample size, I grant you, but then my suggestion was speculative.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:16 PM

Isn't the Core largely Buddhist (or some futuristic form of Buddhism)? So that might have an effect on the way they approach sex in a broader cultural sense - that sex for itself should take backseat to other priorities (disciplining of the self away from the *desire*, etc) which would be slightly more neutral view of sex than it being seen as "dirty" or "vulgar" or sinful.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:32 PM

Yep, though there's a minor branch of Buddhism that's ritualistic as opposed to meditative, and it has quite a repository of sex rituals. You've probably heard of it, it's called Vajrayana Buddhism or Tantric Buddhism.

Buddhism actually speaks of two roads to enlightenment, one through wisdom and one through compassion. While self-discipline is a major part of the religion, the religion can't be said to specifically endorse complete removal from passion or feeling, since both involve connecting to other beings and thus the greater universe.

A better explanation is to look at Buddhism in the sense that it is intended to relieve suffering, and desire without reward can be considered a form of suffering. Self-discipline comes in to moderate desire, but there are other ways to alleviate suffering besides self-discipline; for example, self-discipline doesn't exactly feed a starving village (the compassion side of enlightenment). The wisdom path is internal, but to really emulate the Buddha you also have to follow the path of compassion, which is external.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:54 PM

Tantra, baby!

Thanks for typing that out, I'm only somewhat familiar with Buddhism myself so I wasn't aware of the delineation btwn the two paths. I think approaching Inara through her spiritual beliefs (which are Buddhist) is a good way of approaching her work and how she sees it.

IMNOTHERE

Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aliasse:
I agree that Joss was trying to force an idea but at the same time he didn't back away from showing the hour glass in the pilot - the goddess experience is time-limited and when your time's up you're out.

Yes - there is certainly an edge to some of the "companion" scenes, especially that first one. Then there's the whole plot of Shindig, with one of Inara's carefully chosen, spiritually compatible clients turning out to be a complete

with a veneer of sophistication.

I don't think Joss is saying to anybody that you have to accept "Companionship" any more than you have to agree with the rest of our BDH's lifestyle choices. Moral ambiguity always was part of the appeal of Firefly...

Its a fair bet that, had the series continued, Joss would have shown us more of the darker aspects to Companionship and the Guild. (Otherwise, someone would have had to inquire who he was and what had he done with the real Joss Wheedon...)

KPO

Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:42 PM

Quote:
P.S. I shall be freely plagiarising chunks of this post of yours for fanfics to come, if that's all right with you mate :)

Feel free, amiga :)

I'm going to check out that fanfic now - never quite know where to start myself with fanfic , but am always interested in people's faves/recommendations.

Heads should roll

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aliasse:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aliasse: because even though sex may be part of the rituals, in Inara's mind it could be that the ritual is what's important, not the sex. For example, clearly she had sex with Fess Higgins in some sort of coming of age THING, right? And obviously, Magristrate Higgins thought the sex was what's important. But what does Inara emphasize? TEA!

Maybe there's other stuff that happened with Fess that in Inara's mind is more what made Fess a man than the sex, you know? And maybe that's how it is with her other clients and any other rituals she might be performing.

But I thought your point was that people in the Core in general, not just Inara, might have developed a 'sex is above all a recreational activity' belief. In emphasising the tea aspect of her encounter with Fess Higgins, she may be betraying HER own beliefs about the relative unimportance of sex, but that doesn't show that other people think this way too.

Also, the tea is a distancing, respectifying (yes, that's a word ahem) thing - 'I'm not just a whore, I do really good tea ritual too and that proves it.'

Could Inara have done what she did for FH without being a Companion?

Fess's rich daddy decided to pull the whole "you ain't a man until you've had sex" gag--thus the reason for contracting Inara. Fess' first sexual experience would be

1.)guaranteed(she is paid),
2.)minimized awkwardness (she has skillz), and
3.) Kaylee's version of "rich"--something that is high-class, glorified, and more important.

I think with the tea, Inara is serving as counterpoint to Magistrate Higgins' rather crude ideas and way of dominating everyone--she gives Fess that big speech about standing up for himself.
But still has sex with him(if I recall). Thus we actually keep both factions happy.

What would the episode have been like if she, as a Companion, hadn't had sex with him? Would he still have had the "moral invigoration and courage" to stand up to his father? Could you do that in this series? Cynical, but that's my burning question.
__

Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Monday, February 22, 2010 1:07 AM

You know... All we see is Inara give Fess a kiss and the next day Inara is cleaning up tea. I mean, it's assumed there was sex, maybe because we all expect it, but sex is never actually implied. Maybe we just all have really dirty minds. What if the tea ceremony took all night or they just stayed up talking about Fess's problems and his dad putting him down all the time? And the next morning, when Fess expresses his admiration for the Hero of Canton and how his dad's looking to string him up, Inara hatches a clever plan for Fess to defy his father, assert himself, and also help her.

Having sex with him would also contradict Inara telling Fess that being a virgin is nothing to be ashamed of, that it's just a state of being. Fess' problem wasn't that he was a virgin, and clearly Inara's reason for accepting him for a client was to help him with his problems. Sex necessary? Maybe not!

RUGBUG

Monday, February 22, 2010 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
You know... All we see is Inara give Fess a kiss and the next day Inara is cleaning up tea. I mean, it's assumed there was sex, maybe because we all expect it, but sex is never actually implied. Maybe we just all have really dirty minds. What if the tea ceremony took all night or they just stayed up talking about Fess's problems and his dad putting him down all the time? And the next morning, when Fess expresses his admiration for the Hero of Canton and how his dad's looking to string him up, Inara hatches a clever plan for Fess to defy his father, assert himself, and also help her.

Having sex with him would also contradict Inara telling Fess that being a virgin is nothing to be ashamed of, that it's just a state of being. Fess' problem wasn't that he was a virgin, and clearly Inara's reason for accepting him for a client was to help him with his problems. Sex necessary? Maybe not!

There's a whole post-coital scene you're forgetting. If Fess and Inara didn't have sex, they got naked, climbed into bed together and then Fess talks about something they did that he thought would make him feel different. ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Simon's too proper to really get a read on whether he thinks sex is important or not; obviously he's able to recognize that Mal as big brother might be dangerous if it looked like Kaylee had been taken advantage of, and might react the same way in regards to River. His reaction to Kaylee asking Inara about her appointments might be prudishness, and that's how Kaylee takes it, leading to the subsequent conversations about what's proper. But maybe he's just surprised to hear it from Kaylee, who can seem pretty innocent. At the very most, it could possibly be argued that Simon sees sex as something vulgar. But either way, it seems to me it's not something he really cares about, or maybe even thinks about much. Which again suggests that core worlders don't really see it as anything important.

I've got to disagree about Simon. I think he feels sex is VERY important. He knows Kaylee is willing, but he won't just sleep with her even though she's willing. He will not view her as recreation...and it frustrates Kaylee. It's interesting to see the juxtaposition of Fess/Inara and Kaylee/Simon in Jaynestown. I'm sure there's a whole essay worth of compare/contrast options...more than I'm willing to think about right now other than a cursory "Hrmm...intersting."

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

BYTEMITE

Monday, February 22, 2010 4:14 AM

Well, it's been a while. I admit I was mostly looking at the script for the episode here, which goes from Inara's "it's okay to be a virgin speech" and kiss to morning with the crew, then at some point back to Inara, who the script specifies is cleaning up their tea.

*double checks* Ah, hmm. Yep, that was added. Guess Joss had to put some sex in the episode somehow. :)

Still, it probably COULD have been accomplished without sex. With the added benefit of FURTHER pissing off the Magistrate.

RUGBUG

Monday, February 22, 2010 4:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, it's been a while. I admit I was mostly looking at the script for the episode here, which goes from Inara's "it's okay to be a virgin speech" and kiss to morning with the crew, then at some point back to Inara, who the script specifies is cleaning up their tea.

*double checks* Ah, hmm. Yep, that was added. Guess Joss had to put some sex in the episode somehow. :)

Still, it probably COULD have been accomplished without sex. With the added benefit of FURTHER pissing off the Magistrate.

No worries...I had to pull the DVDs out to be sure. :D

Inara could've taught Fess to be a man without the sex, but what she was contracted for was pretty specific and if she didn't fulfill that contract, well...that's a whole 'nother can of worms, yes?

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

BYTEMITE

Monday, February 22, 2010 4:45 AM

Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?

ANOTHERSKY

Monday, February 22, 2010 9:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?

It's possible. Inara turns down hanging-out offers with noobs to go to a ball with the dashing Sir Fussy-pants Wing in Shindig.

And I will now outright make the contention that her having sex with Fess is the rub in this episode. Other than ratings(and questions of her contract), could it possibly have been done the other way?
__

Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Monday, February 22, 2010 2:58 PM

I think not only could she have accomplished the same goal, but she could have potentially done a better job. It kind of contradicted the virgin pep speech she gave, and a young man Fess' age could be easily confused.

Fess seemed like a nice kid. Shame his father pressured him into anything. In ten years he probably would have taken over as magistrate and been a much kinder and better boss, and then I'm sure he'd have no shortage of women looking to court him.

Maybe that whole "I choose you" thing Inara does would be enough to help him forget about the money, but I'm wondering if he would have had a bigger self-esteem boost if Inara had taken him to the Mudder's bar and coached him on his flirting game. But I think because of what's expected - culturally, for television, and maybe simply because of how most people would view Inara's job - we got a suggestive cuddle scene.

RUGBUG

Monday, February 22, 2010 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?

I'm not saying that the contract is always for sex. But it clearly was in the case of Fess Higgins. There's really no doubt. If Fess hadn't wanted to, then fine...but he didn't seem to mind.

I think the conversation about not feeling different was suppose to make us believe that the sex wasn't really the transformative factor for Fess. However, the message is muddied because it happened. And then there's Fess at the end, defying his father, sitting with his business front and center. His action, and the camera angle tell us he grew some balls, but we can't really determine what part of his time with Inara helped him do that.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

ANOTHERSKY

Monday, February 22, 2010 8:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

I think the conversation about not feeling different was suppose to make us believe that the sex wasn't really the transformative factor for Fess. However, the message is muddied because it happened. And then there's Fess at the end, defying his father, sitting with his business front and center. His action, and the camera angle tell us he grew some balls, but we can't really determine what part of his time with Inara helped him do that.

This is exactly my point. And here I thought a man's courage was in another part of his anatomy.

__

Going for a ride.

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:46 AM

Quote:
And I will now outright make the contention that her having sex with Fess is the rub in this episode. Other than ratings(and questions of her contract), could it possibly have been done the other way?

Well there's this idea that a boy can turn into a man by losing his virginity. The episode tried to turn this cliche on its head but then ultimately had to use it - because how 'transformational' can a tea ceremony and a little bit of life-coaching be (in the space of one episode)? So we're left with Inara telling him he doesn't need to have sex to become a man, then having sex with him to prove it - and lo, him becoming a man.

I guess a quick and easy watershed moment was needed since Fess's 'transformation' needs to take place in just a single episode (to serve the ep's main storyline). I don't think this subplot was ever likely to be a satisfying study into Companionship. Which prompts me: Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?

(Very sorry to those who would've said Jaynestown!)

Heads should roll

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?

The scene in the pilot where she lays her hand on the Shepherd's head, in a sort of absolution. That pretty much told me right there who and what Inara was.

ANOTHERSKY

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?

The scene in the pilot where she lays her hand on the Shepherd's head, in a sort of absolution. That pretty much told me right there who and what Inara was.

I think the answers you're going to get to this question are going to depend on what people think of Inara's function in the show.

That actually was the one scene where I went "Huh".
I mean, I knew what the writers were trying to do to the audience: "aaugh! gut reaction! totally zomg this preacher dude is like confessing to the prostitute, man! Totally wth?"

But I don't know what they were trying to do to the show by having that scene. I mean, Book has that bit and then he's all peachy the rest of the time. It just feels really out of place given the rest of his episode/show "arc" that we see, and Inara's also.

If it really was just to say about the characters to the audience (I apologize in advance) "we're not in Kansas any more", then I get it. But anything else baffles me.
__

Going for a ride.

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:34 AM

I liked her in the pilot (I liked everything about the pilot).

It doesn't explain the Companioning though. That was a spontaneous moment, where she addressed the imminent need of a human being who had come to her. Not quite the same as her choosing clients and flying out to them to perform services, and then taking money.

That definitely was a good moment, but I don't think it's one that sums up Companioning - though maybe it sums up the person of Inara.

Heads should roll

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:41 AM

See, my whole thing with Inara was, when does the Companion end, and Inara begin, and vice versa? At that moment, Book recognized Inara as a person of status, respect, wisdom, etc, and he came to her for that. And I never found book all that preachy, and when he was, it was certainly never to Inara...he treated her with deference, and it always stuck me (and this is just my own reading) that that was due to her station, as a Companion...which is simultaneously also who she is (in addition to what). It's never explicitly spelled out WHY Companions are as highly regarded as they are, rather it's shown to us in a myriad different ways.

Quick add - In the commentary for the pilot, Joss mentions that when Simon goes up to Inara's shuttle, ostentatiosly for medical supplies, he is actually going up there to confess, about Kaylle and the trouble he felt he caused. And we see him do that repeatedly throughout the series, going to Inara to confess, or seek counsel or comfort. He doesn't open up like that to anyone else, not even Book to whom he's somewhat closed off, which wouldn't seem to make sense as he obviously has respect for Book's religion, and Book IS the preacher. But Simon grew up with Companions, and naturally gravitates to Inara to fulfill that role instead. So there's another example of her status as a Companion and what that might signify to people in the Core. It's obviously more than sex.

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:56 AM

Right... But then they're forced to show the mechanics of Inara's profession occasionally - and it never quite lives up to its esteemed, honourable billing... The mechanics are dirty (I'm not talking in terms of sex...).

I better leave it there - I've hammered on about this too long already!

Heads should roll

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:01 AM

What's dirty about them? Other than the occasional jerk she runs across, that is...

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:16 AM

Just that Inara's pure, noble moments you are mentioning are irrelevant to her job, and what she does for it. They're only relevant to her kind of revered, very classy status - she could be a noble queen, or ambassador, or highly evolved species of alien (I know, Joss wouldn't like that, I'm still working on the details though :) ) - and then you could still have this special role, and special *presence* on the ship. And in these cases it would be legitimate.

But specifically, what's dirty - I guess that she's taking money for what she does. That can never be *that* noble. Also I can only understand it as a charade (as I and others have described previously in the thread - though perhaps others see it differently). The fact that the main part of her job is bringing physical pleasure - let us say is morally neutral. Overall it's a little bit shady, and beneath the person and status of Inara that is put across (refined, classy, beautiful, noble, wise).

Heads should roll

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:33 AM

Ah, see, I think we are coming at cross angles here. You say her nobility is irrelevant to her job...I think it on the contrary that's a fundamental aspect of her work. For some reason you seem to think sex undermines all that...and that doesn't really make any sense unless you think there's something inherently dirty or vulgar about sex. We don't know that the main part of being a Companion is bringing *physical* pleasure either; rather, we are generally shown that the physical aspect augments the spiritual/psychological aspect. It supports it. Also, why would accepting money for her services make it a charade? Doctors and psychiatrists accept money. Soldiers get paid. So does the president. Priests and pastors typically receive stipends and gifts (some more than others). There's a point at which that can be corrupted, but it's not intrinsically so. So that doesn't really make much sense to me either.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:43 AM

I'm going to say that companioning in the series is actually better shown by Nandi then by Inara, the poor girl just has the most awful luck it seems like, and I do see Inara as a little bit naive about it all.

Of course, it seems like most everyone disagrees with me that it was Nandi who was companioning Mal, giving him a taste of what he wants and can't have as payment for him helping out her house. But the way I see it was Nandi really trying to help Mal work through his feelings for Inara and maybe try to get past them.

And she did a pretty good job, too, up to the point when Mal runs into Inara, but I think that's because Nandi really underestimated the depths of both their feelings.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 AM

Well, Nandi was certainly using wiles ;)

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:50 PM

Quote:
Of course, it seems like most everyone disagrees with me that it was Nandi who was companioning Mal,

Actually I agree with you, and thanks - you've given me a breakthrough.

I think they were 'companioning' each other. Two people who for different reasons could use the comfort and shared a connection - it was mutual.

But here's my point, why call this 'companioning' at all? It was just regular, conventional, human intimacy: mutual, and no money changing hands. All right Nandi used some wiles to smooth the process but I don't think that makes it 'Companionship'.

What distinguishes Inara's Companionship is that it is one-sided - her satisfying the needs of a client, and getting paid for it. As someone else said, 'being paid to be personal'. And this is what makes it a charade in my opinion - no human relationship/interaction is really like that.

Actually there is one kind of human interaction that is genuinely one-sided, and that is charity. Seeing another human being in need and acting with compassion - as Inara did with Book.

So perhaps Inara could choose *some* clients on a charitable basis (folk like Fess who apparently could really benefit from her 'touch'?) - but I can't imagine her choosing all her clients that way, and in any case she is still charging money, so not quite charity...

No, as Joss says, he was playing with the old fashioned notion in the Western genre of the prostitue with the 'heart of gold'. I actually don't mind this notion, but I think Joss over-reached when he tried to make the whole *profession* 'golden'.

Heads should roll

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:50 PM

Oops, double

Heads should roll

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:51 PM

Treble...

Heads should roll

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:52 PM

Quadruple... sorry guys!

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:12 PM

The reason I call it companioning is because I don't quite see it as mutual.

Inara, the next day, ASSUMES that Nandi for some reason needed comfort. But is that how Nandi strikes you, really? That she's very worried about Rance Burgess' threats? She strikes me more as just plain annoyed by it all, like Rance Burgess is an insignificant bug with delusions of grandeur, and the only reason she's taking it seriously at all is the threat to her girls (and boys).

It seems pretty obvious that Nandi seduced Mal. It even seems like from a few things she says that she was PLANNING on seducing him. So, why? If it's not that she needed anything, and Nandi strikes me as fairly independent spirited, why would she do that? Just took a fancy to him because of their similarities? Does she seem like the kind of person who can afford just taking a fancy to someone? Would that be something someone with her training would blindly jump into, seeing that she's AWARE that Inara is the other woman in the room?

Nah, I don't see it. So that leaves two other options. It could have been charity, her feeling sorry for Mal after seeing Inara reject him a couple times in front of her. But ultimately, what I see is Nandi not liking having any debts to anyone. Mal's being paid, but she can see his heart's not in the money, and he's not really getting anything out of helping. So she feels like she personally owes him something. So she uses her companioning abilities as payment. It's an exchange, just like what Inara does. Mal doesn't seem to realize it though.

So if one's okay, why isn't the other? Why's it okay for a guy to take a girl to a dinner and a movie (or give her a ruby necklace), and expect something in return? Isn't it the same thing? Mal decides to take that job because he's trying to help Inara and impress her and maybe THEN she'll want to be involved with him. He doesn't even think he has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding, but for the questing knight trying to win favour, that doesn't really matter to him (much). He'll do it anyway. Keep on fighting those dragons and slaying those windmills. The pursuit of love is far nobler, in his mind, and far more entertaining for us, than is the obtaining.

Unless you think there's another reason Mal was motivated to help?

In any case, what's the difference between sex obligated by money and sex by social obligation?

KPO

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:10 PM

Quote:
So she uses her companioning abilities as payment. It's an exchange, just like what Inara does. Mal doesn't seem to realize it though.

You don't see any kind of connection there, between the two characters? - "Lady, you are my kind of stupid.", "Malcolm Reynolds I've been waiting for you to kiss me since I showed you my guns...", etc.? What about the vulnerable: "I aint her."? Why would Nandi bring Inara up if she's just charitably trying to seduce Mal to help him *get over* Inara...??

Quote:
Does she seem like the kind of person who can afford just taking a fancy to someone?

That's the least romantic thing I've ever heard!

Quote:
Unless you think there's another reason Mal was motivated to help?

The whole connection thing, referred to above.

Quote:
In any case, what's the difference between sex obligated by money and sex by social obligation?

We can agree, neither one is romantic. But I don't think that's what we're dealing with here.

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:46 PM

Does NANDI seem like a romantic? I'll grant you Mal is. Maybe. He felt a connection to Nandi.

I'm saying Nandi likely felt no more connection to Mal than she did one of her clients when she was a companion.

And yeah, the line about "since I showed you my guns" is what makes me think she'd planned the whole thing. It wasn't anticipation or Nandi looking forward to it (you'll notice she said nothing about HOPING he'd kiss her), it's that Mal's kinda stupid when it comes to taking a hint.

She brought up Inara to make sure he was okay with what they were doing. She knows he cares about Inara. She didn't want him fantasizing he was with Inara when she's trying to help him get over Inara. It's counter productive.

Who here expected Joss to show Mal imagining he's with Inara? I did. But he didn't. Aside from Nandi asking him, it seems like Mal successfully put Inara out of mind for a while. So my interpretation of that scene and the nuances is that was Nandi's intention all along.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

You don't see any kind of connection there, between the two characters? - "Lady, you are my kind of stupid.", "Malcolm Reynolds I've been waiting for you to kiss me since I showed you my guns...", etc.? What about the vulnerable: "I aint her."? Why would Nandi bring Inara up if she's just charitably trying to seduce Mal to help him *get over* Inara...??

Heads should roll

This. Don't forget that Inara, when she announces her intention to leave, conflates Mal and Nandi--or at least their leadership qualities. She clearly sees the connection, too.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:05 PM

Nandi's a rough talking Madam on a Rim world... She also was once apparently a soft talking companion from the Core. The most rebellious thing she ever did was break a dulcimer.

She trucked out to the Rim and started playing a role that was expected of her, took on traits that she needed to survive. This, and Saffron, reflects what masterful actors and actresses companions can be. Who's the real Nandi? Who's the real Inara?

Like I said, Mal felt like he had a connection with Nandi. Clearly Mal and Inara have a connection. But did Nandi have a connection with Mal? Very hard to tell. My inclination is no. Up until the seduction scene, Nandi gives no real indication of being interested in Mal, even if Mal is somewhat interested in her.

ANOTHERSKY

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
See, my whole thing with Inara was, when does the Companion end, and Inara begin, and vice versa? At that moment, Book recognized Inara as a person of status, respect, wisdom, etc, and he came to her for that. And I never found book all that preachy, and when he was, it was certainly never to Inara...he treated her with deference, and it always stuck me (and this is just my own reading) that that was due to her station, as a Companion...which is simultaneously also who she is (in addition to what). It's never explicitly spelled out WHY Companions are as highly regarded as they are, rather it's shown to us in a myriad different ways.

Quick add - In the commentary for the pilot, Joss mentions that when Simon goes up to Inara's shuttle, ostentatiosly for medical supplies, he is actually going up there to confess, about Kaylle and the trouble he felt he caused. And we see him do that repeatedly throughout the series, going to Inara to confess, or seek counsel or comfort. He doesn't open up like that to anyone else, not even Book to whom he's somewhat closed off, which wouldn't seem to make sense as he obviously has respect for Book's religion, and Book IS the preacher. But Simon grew up with Companions, and naturally gravitates to Inara to fulfill that role instead. So there's another example of her status as a Companion and what that might signify to people in the Core. It's obviously more than sex.

I said after that one scene Book was peachy, not preachy, fearthebunnyman. Meaning, it seemed like a weird blip in his arc.

And Simon, underneath all that shuai, appears to have a very practical Core-culture mind. At that point, with the big Kaylee mess, having "the Ambassador" in your corner might prevent you and yours getting thrown out the airlock...

__

Going for a ride.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:47 AM

Quote:
I said after that one scene Book was peachy, not preachy, fearthebunnyman. Meaning, it seemed like a weird blip in his arc.

And Simon, underneath all that shuai, appears to have a very practical Core-culture mind. At that point, with the big Kaylee mess, having "the Ambassador" in your corner might prevent you and yours getting thrown out the airlock...

whoah, settle down there, it was an honest mistake. But I would hardly describe Book as "peachy" throughout the rest of the series. He was clearly dealing with some of his own struggles.

also, I think Simon knew just fine that Inara's liking him or not would have shiat-all to do with the Captain's ultimate decisions. And Simon's approach seemed out of genuine remorse rather than an underhanded attempt to weasel his way into another *passenger's* good graces. Again, Joss implied as much in the commentary. And also again, it's an ongoing habit of Simon's to go to Inara - even when that habit created outright tension between him and Mal, as we see alluded to in Better Days.

Simon also doesn't care so much about *himself* getting thrown out of the airlock, so much as River. Which again, is probably why he wasn;t shy to forge a friendship with Inara, even knowing Mal might not like that.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:58 AM

...And my last post came off way snarkier then I intended AnotherSky, but I'm too lazy to go back and reword it...

ANOTHERSKY

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:45 AM

Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?

__

Going for a ride.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?

__

Going for a ride.

Problem with teh internets is tonal fluctuations get lost in the bytes ;)

I'll go ahead and concede with your Book argument for now, as it's been awhile since I've watched the DVD's, and shame on me I never spent as much time analyzing his character as I have some of the others. So your take may well be more accurate than mine.

And NOW I see where you are coming from with your last sentence...but I can counter that by pointing out that Simon witnessed the exchange between Mal, Inara, and Book at the beginning of the pilot, when Mal basically disrespected her in front of the new passengers for her "whoring". So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain. Mal also got pissed off at her trying to "tell him what to do" while Kaylee lay bleeding on the floor. So I don't know that Simon would have seen her as someone who would be a powerful advocate on his behalf, influence-on-the-ship-and-over-the-Captain-wise, at that time.

ANOTHERSKY

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
I'm suprised no one as of yet has mentioned the geisha. When I watched the show for the first time, I immediately thought of Inara as a geisha with more spice (after having watched Memoirs of a Geisha).

In Wikipedia it states the following about the origins of a geisha:

Quote:
In early seventeenth-century Japan (long before the word geisha was ever used), the predecessor of the geisha, a combination of actress and prostitute, worked on the stages set in the driver[vague] river bed of the River Kamo in Kyoto. The line between actress and prostitute was then blurred. The women would preform erotic dances and skits for their audiences. This new type of performance was dubbed kabuku, meaning "to be wild and outrageous". They[who?] called her dances kabuki, which was the beginning of kabuki theater.[1]

Traditional Japanese views of sex were very relaxed. It was a society that embraced sexual delights and where men were not constrained to be faithful to their wives. In fact it was socially acceptable to be in love with one's wife, but only what was considered a "professional" woman.[vague] For sexual enjoyment and romantic attachment, men did not go to their wives, but to courtesans. In order to maintain this profession, the Japanese government created "pleasure quarters" where the courtesans could reside and work and men could go to relax and enjoy the entertainment.[1]

These pleasure quarters quickly became glamorous entertainment centers that offered far more that just sex. The highly accomplished courtesans of these districts entertained their clients by dancing, singing, and playing music. Some were even renowned poets and calligraphers. Gradually, they all became specialized and the new profession, purely of entertainment, arose. It was near the turn of the eighteenth century that the first entertainers of the pleasure quarters, called geisha, appeared. The very first geishas were men, entertaining customers waiting to see the most popular and gifted courtesans.[1]

Around 1760, women began to join men in the art of the geisha and very quickly outnumbered the men. The first woman to use the term "geisha" was an Edo prostitute named Kikuya and[vague] became a full-time entertainer. Soon, many women, whether they sold sex or not, began using the term geisha. Doing so was a way of acquiring respectability and proving that they were professionals.[dubious – discuss] The geisha who worked within the pleasure quarters were essentially imprisoned and strictly forbidden to sell sex in order to protect the business of the courtesans. Geisha who worked outside the pleasure quarters, however, could do as they pleased. Eventually, the gaudy courtesans began to fall out of fashion and the geisha were seen as the chic and desirable entertainers they are in modern Japan.

While I realize the geisha is Japanese and not Chinese, what in the world would have stopped Joss from utilizing some Japanese cultural tidbits to further the excitement of his (our) show? Absolutely nothing.

As for it bothering or not bothering me? Not in the least. Our society is going to change 360 degrees 10 times over before we reach the timeframe Firefly/Serentiy is in, and I like to think myself a progressive thinker.

My wife, on the other hand, does not and would not approve.

I've said my bit about geisha and heitara/haetara already(BTW, "Memoirs of a Geisha" is embellished to say the very least...and Hokusai help you if all you ever see is the movie, it guts the book even more).

But what all these concepts hinge on one concept which is the thing that Stegasaurus' wife might be objecting to:

that there is a separation between the women required to carry on your name and property (your wife) and the woman you want to have sexy fun with (your "INSERT personal entertainer of type and degree, from chatting to sex--heitara, courtesan, geisha, hostess, call girl, stripper, street hooker, whatever, HERE").

There are entire discourses going back to the

ANOTHERSKY

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?

__

Going for a ride.

Problem with teh internets is tonal fluctuations get lost in the bytes ;)

I'll go ahead and concede with your Book argument for now, as it's been awhile since I've watched the DVD's, and shame on me I never spent as much time analyzing his character as I have some of the others. So your take may well be more accurate than mine.

And NOW I see where you are coming from with your last sentence...but I can counter that by pointing out that Simon witnessed the exchange between Mal, Inara, and Book at the beginning of the pilot, when Mal basically disrespected her in front of the new passengers for her "whoring". So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain. Mal also got pissed off at her trying to "tell him what to do" while Kaylee lay bleeding on the floor. So I don't know that Simon would have seen her as someone who would be a powerful advocate on his behalf, influence-on-the-ship-and-over-the-Captain-wise, at that time.

If you're out of time and options, you take the strongest, right? It could be that Simon didn't even have that in his head at all, it could be that he figured it was it for him and he wanted to at least feel ok about it. Or he could have wanted to see what a Companion's room looked like, supposing he hasn't seen one already.
And, supposing there is this facet to Inara's persona a protective quality, it's better than nothing.

Kinda like the fact that Book stands around (or at the end of a muzzle) in many terse gun situations and is never deliberately shot. How Inara can waltz in and take two suspects out of lockdown with no questions asked, with her person being used as the reason they should believe her story--her file is clean, but they even ask themselves "why the heck is she out here?". The reaction is like minor nobility.
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Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:34 PM

Quote:
So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain.

Except the Simon in the shuttle thing happens shortly after the pow-wow in the galley, when Inara goes up to Mal and tells him that even if he just puts Simon and River off on Whitefall, they don't have the necessary experience to survive out on the Rim and it would be as good as killing them. She gives him an ultimatum, that if they go, she's leaving too.

Mal seems to have listened to her, up until finding Simon in the shuttle and threatening him (partially out of jealousy) and telling him to get ready for the airlock, because Kaylee's dead.

Of course, that was a big joke, and it turns out Mal does listen to Inara and he keeps Simon and River on. So, actually, I'm with Anothersky here, I think Simon can figure out subtext, and he knows Inara is a strong ally.

It's the same conclusion Book reaches after the "she's a whore" incident. It's pretty obvious there's more going on there than what's on the surface, which is why Book later goes to talk to Inara ("Why do you find him so fascinating?") and later, again, for that benediction. Mal and Inara bicker like an old married couple, it takes less than three seconds to figure out what's really going on there. It's even more obvious when talking to one of them person to person about the other.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:23 AM

Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business" - i.e., the running of his ship. Again, nothing much pointing to Inara's supposed influence with Mal at that point. The situation btwn Mal and Inara at the beginning of the series could just as easily be read to a newcomer as an affair gone bad, which means their bickering could be leading up to a huge explosion btwn the two of them - I'm just arguing here from the context of it being the first ep, and therefore the first time the passengers are meeting these people who live on the ship. Hindsight's 20/20, but do we know for sure what it would have looked like to them right at that time?

I feel like this is starting to get away from Inara's companion thing here, though...we need to find a way to discuss her without bringing in Mal all the time

KPO

Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:21 AM

Quote:
Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business"

The pilot episode was great...

Heads should roll

ANOTHERSKY

Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business" - i.e., the running of his ship. Again, nothing much pointing to Inara's supposed influence with Mal at that point. The situation btwn Mal and Inara at the beginning of the series could just as easily be read to a newcomer as an affair gone bad, which means their bickering could be leading up to a huge explosion btwn the two of them - I'm just arguing here from the context of it being the first ep, and therefore the first time the passengers are meeting these people who live on the ship. Hindsight's 20/20, but do we know for sure what it would have looked like to them right at that time?

My whole point was about SIMON'S possible psychology in going to Inara, if it had indeed had anything to do with hanging on to her highfalutin apron strings against the captain.

WHETHER or not it would have kept him and River from being kicked off the ship is not my point.

As for Simon's intuition, he IS River's sibling. There isn't an extreme amount of (realistic) weight in that, but there's definitely some, particularly since he does play it like that, the similarities.

Quote:
I feel like this is starting to get away from Inara's companion thing here, though...we need to find a way to discuss her without bringing in Mal all the time

Good idea. But Inara the character, show-wise, is REALLY bound up in Mal and his own personal issues. I'd venture to say that's WHY she's a Companion specifically, other than getting attention with the s-word.

But yes, back to Companion-ing. I didn't mean to sound so uncompromising earlier. More tea as we continue our discussion? Lol...
__

Going for a ride.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:57 AM

@KPO seriously, it's just chock full of EVERYTHING

Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:

My whole point was about SIMON'S possible psychology in going to Inara, if it had indeed had anything to do with hanging on to her highfalutin apron strings against the captain.

WHETHER or not it would have kept him and River from being kicked off the ship is not my point.

As for Simon's intuition, he IS River's sibling. There isn't an extreme amount of (realistic) weight in that, but there's definitely some, particularly since he does play it like that, the similarities.

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think you are making a good point about his thought process...and at the same time though, I think there is still an argument to be made that Simon's approach towards Inara is also at least somewhat influenced by his own experience with companions, and a reflection of Core attitudes towards them, which is in turn a subtle way of showing us that there's more to a Companion than a particularly high-rent call girl/courtesan. That's all I'm saying.

But your analysis added a new layer for me, so thank you for that

Quote:
Good idea. But Inara the character, show-wise, is REALLY bound up in Mal and his own personal issues. I'd venture to say that's WHY she's a Companion specifically, other than getting attention with the s-word.

yeah, she def. provides a contrast. the other problem with that though is I feel like we as the viewer are often directed to see things from Mal's POV, as the lead character...but his point of view is his alone, colored with all his other personal shiat going on, so I feel like for a more objective look at Inara and her vocation, Mal really needs to be taken out of the equation...which is easier said than done.

Quote:
But yes, back to Companion-ing. I didn't mean to sound so uncompromising earlier. More tea as we continue our discussion? Lol...

oh you didn't at all! I'm knocking back coffee at the mo, though. believe it or not, it puts me to sleep pretty fast when I drink it before bedtime.

/but then I run in all my dreams
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Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:28 AM

And if you drink ENOUGH, you run fast enough that you get airborne. What's not to like?

Yeah, I concede the point about the newbies seeing right away about Mal and Inara, at least in that particular instance. In other cases, it has been pretty much an instant recognition. Atherton, anyone?

But I also like the idea of semi-intuitive Simon, too, and core world values guiding him to a familiar form of confessor.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
And if you drink ENOUGH, you run fast enough that you get airborne. What's not to like?

Yeah, I concede the point about the newbies seeing right away about Mal and Inara, at least in that particular instance. In other cases, it has been pretty much an instant recognition. Atherton, anyone?

But I also like the idea of semi-intuitive Simon, too, and core world values guiding him to a familiar form of confessor.

That's the plan! Leaf on the wind, till the crash at the end.

I actually enjoy doing these little tangents a lot but it gives the whole thread a very ADHD quality ;)

ANOTHERSKY

Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:34 AM

Airborne? Pah. I become OMNIPOTENT.

I would settle for being blue again, and ten feet tall. With a tail. That was awesome.

Hey that man owed me ONE good movie-induced dream, after Aliens...

EDIT: Did I just accidentally prove your point?
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Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:56 AM

IT'S TOO LATE FOR THE SENSE TALKY MAKE! SHORT ATTENTION SPANS MEAN YOU'RE NOT SAD AS LONG.

WHY AM I TALKING IN CAPITALS?!

Edit: Also, I have an interesting subpoint to bring up here tomorrow, actually related to Inara and her job and whether she LIKES being a companion. With AnotherSky's permission, of course.

KRELLEK

Friday, February 26, 2010 11:19 PM

Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 28, 2010 5:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)

I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

__

Going for a ride.

ANOTHERSKY

Sunday, February 28, 2010 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Edit: Also, I have an interesting subpoint to bring up here tomorrow, actually related to Inara and her job and whether she LIKES being a companion. With AnotherSky's permission, of course.

Of course. The new subject and thread are here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=42056&m=762200#762200

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Going for a ride.

KRELLEK

Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)

I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

__

Going for a ride.

thanks for leading me out the woods, I did have suspicion that i had gotten lost as you said

so to get back on the topic at hand:-)

I did not iritate, or rub me in a wrong way(the whole Companion thingy)I might be a little hypocritic then i say it would not be something I wished to see a sister/daughter of my own do, but I think it comes with the whole closeness to the familly-thing. and well in the guild that is described it is the companion that choses the client, and other seccurity measures set up so the Companions can feel relatively safe,(like the black mark to isolate bad customers like Wing)

KRELLEK

Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Quote:
Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)

I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

__

Going for a ride.

thanks for leading me out the woods, I did have suspicion that i had gotten lost as you said

so to get back on the topic at hand:-)

I did not iritate, or rub me in a wrong way(the whole Companion thingy)I might be a little hypocritic then i say it would not be something I wished to see a sister/daughter of my own do, but I think it comes with the whole closeness to the familly-thing. and well in the guild that is described it is the companion that choses the client, and other seccurity measures set up so the Companions can feel relatively safe,(like the black mark to isolate bad customers like Wing)

JAYNEZTOWN

Wednesday, January 7, 2026 4:40 PM

guy in Japan with super scifi Nuke-Tech takes a vacation in Shanghai, meets girl at bar who then slips something into drink?

Secretariat plans to take steps to prevent a recurrence, such as banning employees from carrying workplace smartphones when traveling abroad.

Japan nuclear agency worker loses phone with confidential data in China
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8j38rmm4z3o

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