The Great Jayne Debate!

POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37138
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KEF

Monday, November 18, 2002 9:51 PM

Ok, a new thread here to continue with the debate that began in the "ARIEL" thread (which I can't find at the moment.)

Basically this:

SOME people who saw "Ariel" believe that Jayne changed his mind about turning in River and Simon while they were in the diagnostic room. He then tried to hurry them out the back way before the Feds showed up, but they got caught anyway. (Those of you subscribing to this theory please correct anything I got wrong, and/or elaborate.)

OTHER people who watched "Ariel" (myself included) did not think that Jayne changed his mind in the in the diagnostic room. Instead he continued to lead R & S to where the Feds were waiting.

I'll start the debate by recapping two points I made in an earlier post:

1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant. It would seem that she's talking about Jayne - referring to to the fact that Jayne lost his reward because the Fed officer stole it from him by doublecrossing him. This doesn't work if Jayne had already decided to forego the reward before they were captured. On the other hand, she could be referring to the Fed guy, who wasn't going to be getting the reward either. Except that we wasn't going to just lose it and be left with "coal" - he was going to be killed. Plus River is talking in the past tense- about something that's already happened. So it doesn't quite fit unless she was referring to Jayne. (And don't tell me she was just talking gibberish!)

2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal. And it's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

I've watched the tape NUMEROUS times now, and both interpretations of the events have merit.

We've got three weeks to kill here people until the next episode - let's have at it!

Seriously, I'm finding this VERY intriguing. I'd really like to hear what people have to say.

EVANS

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant.

I read an interesting speculation on another board, that river was describing events in Jayne's childhood, which is what freaked him out. I think it's interesting and may fit, because aside from popping out with the word "pretentious" in Shindig, Jayne is not particularly insightful.

Quote:
2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal.

Agree.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

DELVO

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:16 PM

AAAKHCK! Just when I thought you'd gotten it, Kef!

When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

And I didn't need retrospect from later scenes to see Jayne rushing them out early to escape. I just needed that to explain my case here. To me, it was obvious from two things about the rushing-out-of-the-room scene all along. One is Jayne's behavior; he is clearly rushing, even to himself, like he's worried about something. The other is the simple fact that if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up, he can just wait for it to happen; he doesn't need to change plans unless he's changed his objectives.

QUEENTIYE

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:34 PM

I've been reading this debate and I'm finally ready to chime in and say "I agree with Delvo"...

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

Correct.

Quote:
This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

Correct again.

Quote:
About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

Quote:
And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

I don't know if Mal knows that Jayne unbetrayed them. He doesn't have to know. The initial betrayal is bad enough that being sorry for it later doesn't make up for it. So,both Mal's behavior (even if he DOESN'T know that Jayne unbetrayed the Tams), and Jayne's (who does know that he changed his mind, but can't unknow that he set up the betrayal in the first place) make sense in the final scene. AND... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:24 AM

Cool, Delvo! You've stated your case admirably.

It's not a question of "getting it" though . . . this is like a courtroom trial, where the two sides use the same pool of facts to argue two differing versions of the same event.

So far you've failed to convince me "beyond the shadow of a doubt", as they say.

I strongly disagree with you about River. From what I've seen in these episodes, the things River says ARE suposed to have meaning. I believe the show's writers intend most of them to have immediate meaning. They aren't baseless, or to be maybe interpreted at some later time.

There still seems to be a world of confusion on one or both of our parts about this front/back thing.

"Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front" is inaccurate. The fight between Jayne, Simon and the guards takes place in a holding cell. When the guards have been overpowered, they come out of the cell. Jayne turns one way, R & S the other. Simon asks "Where are you going?" Jayne replies "Going out the way we came in." In other words, back through the room where they originally sat handcuffed with the Fed officer who doublecrossed Jayne.

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned. Wrong! Jayne stated in the diagnostic room that he was taking them out back. (See quotes further down.)

The fact that Jayne appears worried about something as he's rushing them from the diagnostic room can be explained by the fact that Jayne is always nervous when he's around Feds. As has been stated in earlier episodes. ("This place gives me an uncomfortableness.") To me he looked worried from the moment they entered the hospital.

Side note: I love the bit when they wheeled the "bodies" into the hospital, expecting to be questioned, and the nurse just waves them through. But Jayne just has to say his line anyway, after going to all that trouble memorizing it!

I also love that look of sisterly pride on River's face after watching Simon save that patient.

"if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up" -There's no indication (beyond how it would fit well into our respective theories) as to whether the Feds were coming to get the Tams, or whether Jayne was supposed to lead the Tams to the Feds. Neither of us can claim this point.

Looking at the diagnostic room scene again . . . after Simon finishes explaining what he's discovered about River's brain, Jayne says "Well that's fascinating. Let's get moving." Simon says, "We still have 20 minutes." Jayne: "Wrong. Plan changed when you were out. We're meetin' out the back way in five." To me, as I listen to the tape, Jayne doesn't sound like like someone who just made a major decision a few moments earlier not to turn in the Tams after all.

The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

This is good! I'm enjoying this, I hope you are too.

Anyone else, you're welcome to weigh in on either side . . .

SHINEY

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned

My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

Oooo, interesting! Yeah, that would definitely work, in the "unbetrayal" theory.

Yup, you could see Jayne was freaking when realized River was talking about him.

Quote:
... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

Hmmm . . .

CORRIELLE

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:08 AM

I believe I come down on the side of Jayne never changing his mind. While watching the episode for the first time, I was really hoping that he'd done just that, but the way that the Feds caught up with them was just too convinient. He may have felt bad about it, but I don't think he ever changed his mind.

One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous. (did I spell that right? probably not.) Also, I tend to take anything Jayne says to Simon about why he's doing things with a grain of salt. I mean, Jayne had to say SOMETHING to get them to leave early, didn't he?

Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Corrielle:
Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

No, it's fine. You and Shiney answered the one question I couldn't. Thanks!

GAHERIS

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:18 AM

I will have to put a second to QueenTiye's idea. Tentative second but there it is. I believe Jayne STARTED having second thoughts about turning in the Tams during the diagnostics. He's shows an unusual interest in what happened to River and in the Station it could be interpreted the way QueenTiye said (The reward not being fun). However I think after the diagnostics Jayne still wants to turn the Tams in... after all he takes them out the back and says "Change of plans" to Simon. He only completely unbetrays the Tams after it's clear he won't be getting out of the predicament without his own efforts.

FRANKIGAL

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiney:

My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.

Thats just what I thought happened. I think he wanted to get the reward but at the same time he wanted to remain apart of Serenity's crew.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:20 AM

I want to further clarify my thoughts about River's rant. The three of them are sitting there, and Jayne tells Simon to shut up because he needs to think. A few moments later River says, "They took away Christmas . . . "

What I think is happening is that River is reading Jayne's SUBCONCIOUS mind. She's getting an emotional impression of what Jayne is feeling subconciously, and interpreting it the best way she can.

This possibly fits in with what Simon said in the diagnostic room about how her brain is working now, since they stripped her amygdala. - "She feels everything. She can't not."

ESME

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:26 AM

I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)
Then we find out he's betraying them via the card-swipey-screen thing...(sorry, I'm not technical) and as soon as we know what he's up to, he starts showing doubts about going through with it.
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.
However, I don't think he was going to back down. He was feeling kinda bad, but went through with it anyway.
You Jayne lovers...you've all seen "My Bodyguard", right?

just call me...amygdala

WHISKEYMESSIAH

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:31 AM

Two things to say:

First - Jayne is anout as mercenary as as any man could be. Just watch "Jaynestown" and see how he sold out his first (?) partner to four years locked in a small box.

Second - He is a thief and possibly a habitual liar. It doesn't seem to me that he cares for anyone else but himself.

With that said, I have to say that it is highly unlikely that he had any second thoughts about turning in Simon and River. He might have felt some remorse over it, but to me Jayne is the perfect example of that old saying "No honor among thieves"....

What I find interesting is how Mal seemed ready to have Jayne sucked out the airlock up until the point that Jayne asked Mal to come up with a story to cover his betrayal. With this statement Jayne actually becomes more human - he doesn't want the others to have negative feelings for him after he dies. Jaybe is not smart, and he does not seem to care for anyone on Serenity except himself, but here he shows that he is not totally incapable of some basic human emotion. I liked how Mal was able to read something in those "last words" and see some possibility of redemption. Besides that, who else are you going to get to do the crappy jobs (hanging out of cargo doors, jumping onto moving trains, killing people, etc.).

The Whiskey Messiah

EVANS

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:08 PM

Agree with WhiskeyMessiah.

Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).

As I said earlier, Jayne didn't care about what he did. He cared that he didn't get the money, that Simon misinterpreted his actions, that mal caught him out. He wasn't sorry about what he did; he was sorry he got caught.

As for asking Mal to make something up about why Jayne died: Jayne was cowering as he faced death; he was cringing.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

THEGN

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:05 PM

Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

QUEENTIYE

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).

Like (and knew) the word. BUT... I like un-betray better right now - it's more to the point, and a lot more fun...

I like everyone's arguments about Jayne, and I in fact agree with most. I do agree that Jayne is as mercenary as they come. BUT... he isn't without human decency and feeling. My evidence?

1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan. Didn't have too, could simply keep that thought to himself. But he found something to respect, and respected it.

2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them from the practice. Good mercenary behavior would have been to make some money from this turn of events.

3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...

4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.

5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg. Might have been cleaner to kill the guy (this one, of course, could be a simple case of not wanting Mal to back out of the deal).

My point is that we've seen enough of Jayne to know that he is coarse, but his humanity is intact. It isn't a stretch to realize that turning over even creepy people like River and Simon to people who could do what the Alliance did to River is going too far, even for Jayne. To have turned them over (in face of what Jayne learned about the Alliance enroute to the betrayal) would have been just as beyond Jayne as it would have been for Jayne to have killed his partner to sign up with Mal, or for him to have made a bit of money out of the townspeople mistaken interpretation of events.

All of this, of course, is my humble opinion...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

EVANS

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:51 PM

I respect your well-considered opinion.

Quote:
1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan

He may also have been trying to mislead Mal. He had already made arrangements with the Feds (I love that - "the Feds").

Quote:
2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them

I think that at first he wanted them NOT to call attention to him, he didn't want to get pinched by the Man on that eerie-ass day.

Quote:
3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...

Yes, and thoroughly confused. It isn't what he would have done, ever (he thinks?)

Quote:
4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.

Yes. Maybe. Again, a complex brute. What IS he thinking?

Quote:
5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg.

Gotta keep the guy alive, in case the deal with Mal doesn't work out.

I sure have enjoyed your post.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

RADEGUND

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Corrielle:
One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous.

Here's another idea: Jayne changes his mind in the diagnostic room. He tries to hustle Simon and River out early in order to avoid the Feds who are on their way. Unfortunately he's not fast enough and they get caught in the stairwell.

Radegund

DOCEBO

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:41 PM

i have been thinking of Jayne's motive for turning simon and river in for a couple of days now and i don't think that money was his primary reason. After watching the last scene of ariel and the previous eps I think that Jayne really thought he was doing the crew(and more importantly himself, don't mean to make him look un-selfish) a favor by turning them in.

He states in the opening of ariel and in safe that life would be easier for them all without the "two most wanted on board".

At the end of Ariel he says "its not like i betrayed you" or something to that effect. It seems to me that he thought he was helping the crew wether they wanted to be or not.

So yeah anyway i think he really thought that he was just betraying the sibs and that money was really just a bonus for being rid of them.

As for "un-betraying" them I fall into the "he didn't un-betray them" category. Although he def felt remorse after seeing what they did to River.

-Docebo

SENSOU

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.

Based on the following 2 facts: 1.) Alec Baldwin only signed up for 8 episodes; and 2.) Arial is to the best of my knowledge the eighth episode; I spent the whole episode waiting for Jayne to die, be shot or something. But being sucked out of an airlock? ::shivers:: OTOH, he deserved it!

Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

ESME

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:27 PM

Quote:

Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.

REYVNDARKNIGHT

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:13 PM

Consider this, if Jayne had not changed his mind and intended to betray Simon and River, wouldn't River had reacted more violently to Jayne's betrayal? She would have read his mind and intentions and reacted violently.

Instead, she sensed the nearby Alliance people and simply reacted to their intent.

I happen to like Jayne (with Book and Inara higher in the priority chain). Though Jayne tends to be a selfish and self-centered character, I think that Whedon intends part of the intial episodes of the series to be a way for Jayne's character to change from his selfish nature. "Ariel" is the first step in that change.

And I am sure if River prying into his grey matter wasn't the first step in the direction of putting some sense into his thick skull, maybe that big a$$ wrench Mal used against his head did!

BOBKNAPTOR

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.

I'm not sure your logic here is fool-proof. You say the only way to believe that Jayne didn't change his mind about turning them in is to ignore the fact that he rushed them out of the room early. Since the show didn't show us the full extent of the plan he made with the Feds, we have no way of knowing if he was trying to sneak the Tams away before they showed up to pinch them, or if that was the plan all along, to meet in the back stairwell, so that it could look like an accident.

I did see the look of disgust on his face when he realized what they did to River, but in the end, I think it didn't effect his decision to sell them out. Yes, the alliance did terrible things to River, but her behavior had been endangering the crew, not to mention she had attacked and in my opinion, embarressed Jayne. I think reading sympathy into him is a mistake. Shame, yes. Guilt, sure. But I don't think he ever felt any sympathy for their plight. Only a desire to make some money, and when that failed, save face.

______________
Mal: I never back down from a fight!
Inara: Yes you do! You do all the time!
Mal: Well, yeah.... but I'm not backin down from this.

THEGN

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I'm not sure your logic here is fool-proof. You say the only way to believe that Jayne didn't change his mind about turning them in is to ignore the fact that he rushed them out of the room early. Since the show didn't show us the full extent of the plan he made with the Feds, we have no way of knowing if he was trying to sneak the Tams away before they showed up to pinch them, or if that was the plan all along, to meet in the back stairwell, so that it could look like an accident.

I did see the look of disgust on his face when he realized what they did to River, but in the end, I think it didn't effect his decision to sell them out. Yes, the alliance did terrible things to River, but her behavior had been endangering the crew, not to mention she had attacked and in my opinion, embarressed Jayne. I think reading sympathy into him is a mistake. Shame, yes. Guilt, sure. But I don't think he ever felt any sympathy for their plight. Only a desire to make some money, and when that failed, save face.

Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne insisting upon leaving only after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)

Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)

Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne changing his mind after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

Okay, here's the thing- The fact that Jayne TOLD Simon and River that they had to leave early only after hearing about River does not necessarily mean that that's when he DECIDED to do it. Rushing them out early could have been part of his plan all along - in order to give himself time to take them to the Feds, collect his reward money, deal with any complications, and make it back to Mal, Zoe and Wash waiting at the med vehicle. (He could then claim to Mal that someone recognized the Tams and alerted the guards, but he himself "managed" to get away.) He gave himself 20 minutes because he knew Mal would come looking for them if he took too long getting back to the vehicle. The reason he didn't tell Simon about the "change in plans" earlier was because he didn't want to give Simon time to contact Mal about the change in plans. (Remember- that was exactly what Simon wanted to do when Jayne informed him they had to leave now.)

RHEA

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:30 PM

Put me in the "Jayne doesn't un-betray them" category.

I think that the reason Jayne hurried them out early is that making an earlier rendezvous with the Alliance stooges was the only way he could be sure of betraying them and collecting the $$$ BEFORE Mal caught him.

I've never had any sense that he changed his mind - only that he wavered a little. And that he felt bad afterward - and I'm absolutely certain that's why Mal didn't space him.

I'll have to think about River's Christmas spiel. Especially interesting was her remark about not looking in the closet because "it's not in the spirit of the season." (From memory) I assumed she was referring to Jayne, too, although sometimes it's hard to decode Riverspeak.

ESME

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:33 PM

Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.

Thank you.

And I really like DOCEBO's idea about why Jayne betrayed in the first place.

Man, this is all great stuff. You guys rock!

THEGN

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Okay, here's the thing- The fact that Jayne TOLD Simon and River that they had to leave early only after hearing about River does not necessarily mean that that's when he DECIDED to do it. Rushing them out early could have been part of his plan all along - in order to give himself time to take them to the Feds, collect his reward money, deal with any complications, and make it back to Mal, Zoe and Wash waiting at the med vehicle. (He could then claim to Mal that someone recognized the Tams and alerted the guards, but he himself "managed" to get away.) He gave himself 20 minutes because he knew Mal would come looking for them if he took too long getting back to the vehicle. The reason he didn't tell Simon about the "change in plans" earlier was because he didn't want to give Simon time to contact Mal about the change in plans. (Remember- that was exactly what Simon wanted to do when Jayne informed him they had to leave now.)

This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.

Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

RHEA

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:56 PM

^Actually, we don't know *when* Jayne decided what time they needed to leave. All we know is what he said - that there'd been a change of plans while they were unconscious.

Half of us saw one thing, half saw another - that tells me that it's in the eye of the beholder.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea:
^Actually, we don't know *when* Jayne decided what time they needed to leave. All we know is what he said - that there'd been a change of plans while they were unconscious.

Yes. This is correct. We don't necessarily know what Jayne was thinking. We aren't privy to Jayne's state of mind. We only know what he did in the show. Which is why it is meaningless that so many of you are making up stories about what Jayne did or thought while the camera was on someone else.

This is not that difficult. We don't know what Jayne was thinking. But what we do know is that Jayne had previously set up a plan in which he would sell Simon and River to the Alliance. We know this because of this communication at the hospital. We also know that Jayne changed the plan that Simon had thought they were following, what we don't know is if Jayne changed the plan as Jayne thought. This was all set up by the writers. This wasn't a mistake. But why would the writers make it so plane that Jayne was not only insisting on leaving 20 minutes earlier but also only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

The writers weren't kind enough to give you the information Jayne was thinking, so you must infer from the information the writers did give you, and you have a choice:

You can either say that Jayne didn't change his plan to get rid of Simon and River, but in order to do that, you MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne insisted that they leave only after he discovered the extent of River's injury.

OR

You can say that Jayne changed his mind for whatever reason, and then you don't have to dismiss anything.

But if you say that Jayne didn't change his plan, you must dismiss that fact.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across, but it all has to do with the difference between fact and assumption. Many of you are working off assumption, not fact. You've assumed that Jayne is incapable of changing his plan, and some of you are trying to make the story fit that assumption often by creating elaborate back story. But in order to do that, you must dismiss a fact of the story. There's no way around that.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

BOBKNAPTOR

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:27 AM

Rhea And Kef... Thank you! I'm glad I'm not speaking in tongues here and that someone else got what I was trying to say.

Thegn... you saying that he made the decision to leave early when he found out what had happened is just as much an inference as us saying he had the plan all along. You don't know when he made the decision, only when he announced it. He may have made the decision to leave early and not give Simon any warning much earlier. Or he may have made the decision right then because he felt so horrible about the mess the alliance put poor River through. Both are guesses, and unless you have seen a script where the writer says "Jayne realizes he was wrong and decides not to turn in the Tams, so they must leave early" then you don't know any better than the rest of us.

I know that sounds bitchy, and it's not intended to be an attack. Just a comment on the way you structure your argument. You are dismissing our theory saying we are making up what happens off camera, while your theory is based on fact because you saw what happened. When, in fact, your "facts" are just as much speculation as ours.

______________
It was like the soviet police if they cared about shoes.

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.

Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.

Thegn, your facts are also just speculations. The FACT is, we're BOTH speculating, based on what we each think we're seeing.

No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. Absolutely true. But then why would he need to? Characters usually don't explain to the audience everything they're doing, do they?. By the same token, at no time does Jayne say when- or why- he made the decision to leave early, either. You're ASSUMING that he made that decision because of River's diagnosis only because he didn't announce it until afterward. You can not state as a FACT when Jayne made his decision simply because you THINK you know why he made the decision.

You're assuming that Jose Molina wrote the timing of Jayne's announcement of the plan change in order to show when he made his decision. And that he did so in order to paint Jayne a certain way. What is your basis for your assumtion?

I'm claiming that Jose Molina wrote the timing that way for a simpler reason- so as not to leave any plot holes in Jayne's plan to turn in the Tams.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
You're assuming that Jose Molina wrote the timing of Jayne's announcement of the plan change in order to show when he made his decision. And that he did so in order to paint Jayne a certain way. What is your basis for your assumtion?

I'm claiming that Jose Molina wrote the timing that way for a simpler reason- so as not to leave any plot holes in Jayne's plan to turn in the Tams.

Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Thegn... you saying that he made the decision to leave early when he found out what had happened is just as much an inference as us saying he had the plan all along. You don't know when he made the decision, only when he announced it. He may have made the decision to leave early and not give Simon any warning much earlier. Or he may have made the decision right then because he felt so horrible about the mess the alliance put poor River through. Both are guesses, and unless you have seen a script where the writer says "Jayne realizes he was wrong and decides not to turn in the Tams, so they must leave early" then you don't know any better than the rest of us.

I'm not claiming to know one way or another. I'm just introducing a point to the discussion.

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

In conclusion #1 the two events fall together and conserve the sequence of the story.

In conclusion #2 the two events do not fall together and the story is not conserved leaving an unexplained event.

I never said conclusion #1 is true, because that depends on the writers. I already pointed out that in my first post which you responded too. Without knowing what the writers think, we can't explicitly make that decision. So we are left with just which one works simplest in the storyline.

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I know that sounds bitchy, and it's not intended to be an attack. Just a comment on the way you structure your argument. You are dismissing our theory saying we are making up what happens off camera, while your theory is based on fact because you saw what happened. When, in fact, your "facts" are just as much speculation as ours.

I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument.

Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.

You're halfway there. I don't understand what this means.

You just need to stop embellishing it so much. Embellishing what? Jayne was going to turn in the Tams, correct? My contention is that that's ALL that happened. He did it. Period. End of story. To me THAT'S the simplest explanation to everything we saw happen.

in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events I'm NOT dismissing the sequence of events. I don't know why you keep saying that. All I'm saying is I don't understand why you've put this huge significance in it, why you think it MUST mean something. So you've come up with this theory that Jayne changed his mind about turning in the Tams. Which sounds like an embellishment to me.

you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there. ??? The explanation is that they left early so Jayne can turn them in. Period. Why aren't you getting this?

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The explanation is that they left early so Jayne can turn them in. Period. Why aren't you getting this?

It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience. What part of that are you not getting?

But I agree with you, I think Jayne did mean to turn them in.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience.

And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.

SHINY

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.

He wanted to get Simon and River to the Feds with as little fuss as possible. Which is easier? 1) Tell Simon earlier that Mal changed the plans, and there isn't time for Simon to use the equipment to examine River, or 2) wait until Simon at least got to do an initial examination and collect some data, so Simon would go along without arguing, demanding to stay, etc.

SHINY

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Quote:

Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!

Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.

I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.

SHINY

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:

1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.

In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
He wanted to get Simon and River to the Feds with as little fuss as possible. Which is easier? 1) Tell Simon earlier that Mal changed the plans, and there isn't time for Simon to use the equipment to examine River, or 2) wait until Simon at least got to do an initial examination and collect some data, so Simon would go along without arguing, demanding to stay, etc.

ASSUMMING he actually did want to get Simon and River to the Feds.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.

Yes. I have to concede this point. Ultimately, I think you have to dismiss the relationship between the two events.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

ESME

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:06 AM

[

Quote:

I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.

Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument. Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work.

Hey Thegn, somehow I missed this post earlier. I didn't read it until now. Welcome to our side! Enjoyed crossing swords with you my friend- you're a worthy opponent.

We need a smiley face thing where they're shaking hands.

HOTFORKAYLEE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:

The sequence of events is

A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.

Then

B. Jayne insists on leaving.

Now the possible conclusions:

1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.

2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:

1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.

In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.

After all this discussion we can't know for sure when Jayne changed his mind, but, this is my humble opinion.

He does seem to be in wonder of Simon saving the dying man and uncomfortable with seeing River's brain scans. He still seems to act out his own agenda up untill he is detained and realizes he has been set up by his setup.

As for the reason they left when they did maybe was the writers wanted enough time to explain some of River's past experiments to set up her story, not Jayne's redemption or anything else.

Although, at the end he does seem to understand a little more when faced with his own death after having just escaped death for his scheme with the feds.

Interested to see how his character plays out over the next episodes. (Whenevr that is)

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)

Yeah I kinda liked that idea too.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.

If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.
If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.

Plenty of people missed it (that's assuming I'm right.) That's why I started this thread. But maybe Jose Molina messed up and didn't make it obvious enough.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

Hey! No fair! I was young when I wrote that.

MOPBUCKET

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:26 AM

Howdy All,

Just thought I'd chime in.

Why would Jayne want to suddenly leave early after seeing the extent of River's injuries and seeing Simon save someone.

Put yourself in Jayne's shoes.

You're screwing someone over, someone you don't like. Suddenly you see them saving other peoples lives and find out just how bad they really had it. If I'm Jayne I either A) Change my mind about screwing them over or B) Hate the fact that I'm suddenly feeling guilty and want to get the whole thing over with before I learn even more about how cool these people really are.

I'm guessing B. On the whole I'm aggreeing with the argument that Kef put out.

Also, if Jayne was trying to get them out before the Feds arrive don't you think he'd be a little more cautious when he was trying to escape with the Tams? He turns his back after opening the door. Something someone on the lookout would never do, but something that someone who is feeling guilty about doing the whole charade might do.

As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions. If you assume nothing you can't survive or do anything intelligent at all. I'd like to see someone live one day without making any assumptions. Think about it. I don't think I could survive one day without going insane. Don't mean to sound harsh, but hey, them's the ropes :). Nothin' personal.

Oh, before i forget. Simon didn't kill his man if I remember correctly. He placed his knee over the man's heart, which would not cause death unless held over a prolongued period. Instead it would cause decreased blood flow as well as a decided lack of air, both of which would lead to unconsciousness long before death. Also...again if my memory is correct...the blue dudes sonically boom stick one of the guys before moving on. Since Jayne broke his dudes neck I'm assuming they fry the guy Simon disabled.

Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?

PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!

It's a bird, it's a plane...
No it's a guy in blue tights and a red cape...

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mopbucket:
Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

Cool stuff!

Quote:
PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?

PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!

Actually, he would black out long before he asphyxiated or lost the ablity to talk (in that order) But how about this- Wash said they'd be out of atmo in five minutes. Mal then knocks Jayne unconcious and sticks him in the airlock with a two-way radio. How does Mal know Jayne's going to wake up before they're out of atmo?

We have to remember people that in the end, this is just a TV show. A scriptwriter has to stick to schedule. Do you really think he's sitting down and working out all these little freakin details? Or that he can anticipate half the stuff we pick up on?

PANIC

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:00 AM

So here's my take on Jayne's betrayal. I think the timing of Simon finishing the initial scan (determining the extent of her injuries) and Jayne deciding it was time to leave are, indeed, related. Jayne wanted to leave to rendezvous with the Feds at the earliest time possible. In order to have River and Simon come along willingly, he needed to let Simon finish the scan first. Its as simple as that. (This is Jayne we're talking about, simple is what he does best.)

I do, however, believe that Jayne was beginning to regret his decision by this point, but I truly don't think that he ever changed his mind. He had his mind changed for him when he was double-crossed by the Fed agent in charge. It seems that Jayne is learning from this mistake, but I disagree with the Jayne apologists who want to redeem Jayne prematurely and fancy that some amount of unbetrayal was going on.

Clearly these are just my opinions, and I may well be wrong. No offence meant to anyone who feels differently.

HOOK

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.

There are two things you are missing from your argument, first the writers wanted the audiance to know about rivers condition, an explination for River's mental problems. Simply put the writers HAD to let Simon finish the dignostic so we the audiance would know.

Second you are forgetting one small event the occured between when Simon explained to Jayne River's condition and when Jayne told simon that they had to go, and that is when jayne reached to touch the 3d read-out and Simon stopped him by grabbing his hand then jayne pulled it away and glared at Simon...it is only then that jayne anounces that is time to leave...I have heard many FACTS in this argument about Jayne's unbetrayel but they all seem to ignore the fact that at the very moment he is supposedly changing his mind is also the point in the scene at which Jayne is most anoyed at Simon and reminded of why he doesn't like him in the first place...I ask 'Why would the writers put that part in there, if not to convay that Jayne is about to betray Simon and River?'

I freely admit that durring that scene Jayne is showing simpathy for River and may very well be thinking about not betraying them but when Simon grabs his hand he is instantly galvanized in his intent to betray him.

DELVO

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:24 PM

I don't think the not-being-allowed-to-touch-the-image thing matters. I think it was just a part of how those two interact. But by that time, Jayne had already taken an inordinate interest in what Simon was doing and what it meant for River.

Anyway, the whole idea of Jayne rushing them out to meet the Feds is hopelessly silly for one simple reason: They're already in Fed territory and they were going to be sitting still for 20 minutes and then following a preset path back out. Under these circumstances, their capture, whether in that room in 5 minutes or on the way out in 25, was already completely assured if he'd just sit back and follow through; changing course and rushing can can not possibly serve ANY purpose but escape. And even if it had been part of the plan to rush them out like that for no reason, Jayne wouldn't have been acting so rushed/panicked; he felt that way because the plans had just then changed on HIM, too, as much as they had on Simon.

Plus, Jayne isn't a hesitating type. He does what he thinks should be done as soon as he figures out what it is. Remember when Mal figured out that there were Reavers on that other ship, for example, and everyone else stood around looking stupid and asking why Mal ordered them off with no explanation? Only Jayne acted immediately and with singleminded focus, and he didn't even know the reason for the order. So when he suddenly does something and is acting jittery about it, you can figure he just then decided to do it... especialy if, right before that, he was already taking an interest in one or two of the possible reasons why he might do so (which would seem to have been put in there to tell us a bit about what he's thinking/feeling; after all Simon could have babbled his discoveries for the audience to Jayne who just snaps back and him "Shut up and finish your work"). And in this case, following the actor's behavior happens to lead to the same conclusion as the timing issue (the fact that there's no possible reason to rush but escape).

WHISKEYMESSIAH

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:27 PM

No doubt that this is a great debate! Keep it up guys!

I'm not going to beat a dead horse - It seems to me that all points have been covered up to now. Instead I've got a new angle to check out.

What if Jayne NEVER felt any remorse over his conduct? I have to posit this - What if Jayne has just enough cunning to play on Mal's sometimes misguided sense of loyalty and mercy.

We know that Jayne is a great survivor as well as a habitual liar. Could it be that as he sat in that airlock about to die that he realized that Mal wasn't going to let him live? Could that somewhat dense brain of his have come up with that last statement only to save his ass? Could it be that he only said it to make Mal think that he was turning over a new leaf?

I admit that it seems unlikely, but it would add a whole new dimension to Jayne - maybe he's just not as dumb as he seems and was able to see a way out.

Any thoughts?

The Whiskey Messiah

WHISKEYMESSIAH

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:27 PM

Sorry for the double post - how do I delete?

WHATNOW

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:50 PM

If he changed his mind then why did he ask for the money from the alliance officer?

BOBKNAPTOR

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:14 PM

This is a very spirited debate. I like it.

How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?

(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)

Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?

______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
This is a very spirited debate. I like it.

How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?

(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)

Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?

______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

Amen!

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

Unfortunately no new Firefly till Dec 6.

RHEA

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.

Thegn, I think reasonable minds may differ here. He may have planned all along to announce the change in plans at this time, leaving no chance for Simon to really think about WHY the plans might have changed. If I were Jayne and I needed those twenty minutes to seal the deal, take the money and run, I would have announced it right about when he did. And I certainly wouldn't announe the change in plans the second Simon woke up and give him time to think about what might be happening.

I don't see how we can conclude one way or the other based on what we saw onscreen. As far as I'm concerned the argument could go either way.

However, I'm inclined to think that he didn't change his mind - it's not like he immediately started a fight with the Alliance cops when they showed up. Instead, he bellied right up to collect his money.

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:31 PM

Y'know, has anyone considered the possibility that maybe they PURPOSELY made it ambigous? That they set it up so as to make it look like Jayne MAY have changed his mind about turning them in, but we're not supposed to know for sure? That they WANTED to leave us guessing?

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:32 PM

Despite saying what I said in my previous post - what follows is what I believe has now become My Official Jayne Theory:

While I don't think that Jayne changed his mind about turning them in, I do agree that he started to feel some compassion for River in the diagnostic room. He begins to feel a little uncomfortable, yet he continues to betray her and Simon. But then, the Fed officer betrays HIM. Shoe's on the other foot now, as they say. He's betrayed partners before (Jaynestown, Out Of Gas) but they were mercenaries like himself. But now HE knows what it feels like to be betrayed. That, on top of his beginning to feel compassion for River, and now he starts to feel something . . . but he doesn't understand what it is, because he's never felt this way before.

Later when Simon gushes about what a hero he is, we can see clearly that he's still confused about what he's feeling inside. Then, in the airlock, it suddenly hits him - he's wronged somebody. Someone who didn't deserve it. Perhaps this is the first time in his life that he's felt real shame.

This process of growth may have begun back in Jaynestown, for the obvious reasons. At the end of that episode, he just says "It don't make no sense."

RHEA

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:36 PM

^There you go. And I agree with absolutely.

QUEENTIYE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:09 PM

Hi again!

Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.

Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.

Here's my final version:

1. Jayne plans to betray the Tams soon as he knows that they are in range for betrayal. He may or may not be "helping" the crew - he definitely (either way) wants to get paid out of the deal.

2. Jayne finds something to respect in Simon - his plan's a good one. He still plans to sell Simon & River out.

3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)

4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.

5. Jayne rushes out of the room to get away from the Feds... it doesn't quite work out.

6. The Feds bust Jayne in process of escape. Jayne (to cover his own butt, now that there's no hope for Simon & River) plays like he always planned on them getting caught, and looks for his money.

7. The agent, who busted them, knows that he busts them NOT according to plan, and goes ahead to arrest Jayne right along with the rest.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

QUEENTIYE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:22 PM

One more thought...

I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!

We are only in season 1, only 8 episodes in...it's way too early for our characters to start changing. We're JUST getting to know Jayne the mercenary! SO, all of my theories are based on Jayne being Jayne, and on us (and Mal) learning what common human decencies he ALREADY has, that make him able to be a member of the crew.

Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).

Anyway, I contend that even mercenaries are capable of human feeling and values, and that Jayne is no exception, and I contend that any good that we see from him stems from that place, and that it will take a LONG time for that goodness to develop into something like serious strength of character/integrity.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Hi again!

Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.

Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.

Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.

Quote:
3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)

Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?

Quote:
4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.

Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything? To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?

It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Anyway, I contend that even mercenaries are capable of human feeling and values, and that Jayne is no exception, and I contend that any good that we see from him stems from that place, and that it will take a LONG time for that goodness to develop into something like serious strength of character/integrity.

Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

THEGN

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

QUEENTIYE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.

Why?

Quote:
Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?

Because he's never seen Simon in a competitive arena. This is different because in an arena of DOCTORS, Simon outshone everyone. AND, he showed some backbone. Jayne doesn't like Simon not only because he's rich pampered guy, but because hes a namby-pamby rich pampered guy. The kind that bullies like Jayne LOVE to hate (and bully).

Quote:
Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?

Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.

Quote:
To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?

I expect he'll find some other way to get rid of the Tams... but it won't be to give them to the alliance again...

Quote:
It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.

In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

QUEENTIYE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.

I've GOT to learn how to say things as succinctly as that!

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

QUEENTIYE

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:

OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

OT: It gets worse every episode.. ~SIGH~

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:59 PM

I swear . . . you Jayne lovers, you're gonna be the death of me.

QUEENTIYE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:30 AM

No Jayne lover here...Mal's the man for me!

BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:31 AM

Quote:
I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!

So you're pretty much unbiased then?.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.
Why?

I've already explained that.

Quote:
Quote:
Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?
Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.

Okay, well perhaps this may be the crux of this whole thing - I truly didn't see that in Jayne's face. Please see my post to Thegn.

Quote:
In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.

BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.

This is pretty much the same way I see it. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings. What I meant by "change" for instance. (I apologise for sounding Clintonian!).

You say you don't WANT Jayne to undergo any growth, or at least not this quickly. Why? Because you think he'll "change"? (there's that word again) That he'll start acting differently?

I don't believe my theory is in any way suggesting that consequence. I think you're overinterpreting what I'm saying happened to Jayne.

If I understand you, you believe A) Jayne has a conscience, and that B) it caused him to change his mind in the diagnostic room.

A) is all I'm saying too, basically, even if it sounds like I'm making it into something bigger. I merely contend that B) happened at a different time and in a different way.

Again, please see my post to Thegn.

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:31 AM

Quote:
Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.

As I just posted to QueenTiye, this is pretty much my view as well. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings.

Quote:
Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.

Again, I probably am not expressing myself correctly, in terms of what I mean by change.

Quote:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it.

Whoa, back off. I never said there wasn't.

Quote:
And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

That's exactly what I said! They DIDN'T know the SPECIFICS. But they DID know SOMETHING nasty had been done to her.

But if I understand you and QueenTiye, you both are saying that Jayne looked at that medical scan, and what he saw on it affected him enough to bring out the conscience in him.

I'm just not seeing that. THIS seems to be the crux of where we disagree in this whole debate.

I don't see his conscience coming out at that point in the episode. I don't see it in his actions or reactions. Or in the circumstances, or in the sequence of events. I just don't see it, that's all.

We're just never going to agree on that point.

Just for the record - I'm not saying that you guys COULDN'T be right. It's ambiguous. The fact that other people in this thread also don't see what you do proves that. I believe my theory is close to Jose Molina's intention. But hell, I could easily have my head up my behind.

We're just never going to agree on this. (about the episode I mean, not me having my head up there.) Not that I ever thought we would. But getting to this point has been fun, hasn't it? And it's always educational to see something from someone else's perspective, isn't it? -

...

ILOVEJAYNE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:41 AM

I'm going to have to come down on the no-change-of-heart side. If he'd changed his mind, why lead them out the back instead of the front as planned? That's how Mal figured out what happened; Kaylee reported unusual chatter from the back of the building. The twenty minutes early was to get rid of them as soon as possible.

The only time I wondered if he had changed his mind was after River started screaming. Jayne told Simon to shut her up and muttered about making a quiet escape. I sorta thought he was talking to himself, and wanted to unbetray the Tams then, but if he was still talking to Simon at that point, then I can't see an unbetrayal. Much as I would like to.

FLAMBE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:40 AM

I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.

He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.

I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.

And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

-F

FLAMBE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:40 AM

I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.

He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.

I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.

And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

-F

DELVO

Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:03 AM

Quote:
So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

Well, obviously, by the end when he's fighting with them and running with them (even when they go the opposite direction from the one he 'd rather go), he had unbetrayed them. It's just an issue of when/where/why.

I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...

The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out. That's practically a definition of "easy pickings". Jayne didn't need to do anything to bring about their capture. The inevitable course of events was already leading straight to that. And the only possible reason for Jayne to suddenly start taking rushed, drastic action is to CHANGE that course of events, and thus their inevitable outcome...

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...

Delvo, we didn't go LOOKING for for ways to conclude the "opposite of the obvious." It's the way we saw it in the first place. If your version was SO obvious, why did so many of us not see it? What was "obvious" to us was that Jayne didn't do what you claim. Why ARE we debating this if your version is so obvious? Because it's NOT OBVIOUS.

Quote:
The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out.

If this is so, then they were sitting ducks for longer than 20 minutes. They were sitting ducks from the time Jayne called the Fed officer on the vid screen. Why didn't the Feds swoop down on them while they were still in the morgue? Or while they were on the way to the diagnosis room? Or while Simon was performing the diagnostic?

I know the answer - because they needed to show us, the audience, River's diagnostic. But if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.

DELVO

Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:05 PM

Quote:
if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.

Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

RHEA

Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

I went back and watched this again. This is what I see:

1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).

2) The Tams wake up, they go to the imager, and Jayne announces that they need to leave earlier than planned(assumption: last minute announcement so as not to allow Simon thinking time)

3) They go out, the Feds capture them, and a stunned Jayne finds out he's going to get coal in his stocking.

Try as I may, I can't get anything else out of that scene.

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them Why would the security team NOT be ready?? Jayne first contacted the Feds before they even entered the hospital! So they (the Feds) knew they were coming. They had that whole time to prepare and be ready for Jayne to contact them once inside.

By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?

Maybe because the Feds didn't know exactly when the Tams would be entering the hospital? Okay. But are you then saying that it would've taken the Feds significantly longer to get to the diagnostic room (after Jayne called the second time and told the Fed guy "we're in") than it took Jayne and the Tams to get to the diagnostic room from the morgue? Considering that Simon STILL had time after getting there to perform River's scan? How freakin' slow are these Feds?

DELVO

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:38 PM

Quote:
1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).

But getting the Feds to the Tams or the Tams to the Feds does not require leaving early or changing the route. They're already there, and already surrounded by Feds in a facility where Alliance officials control the locks on the doors. The trap can be sprung at any time, in the room or along their planned exit route. And even if they'd needed to leave early for this to work even though they were already trapped, Jayne would have had no reason to WAIT the few minutes that he DID.

Also, Jayne has no reason at all to be concerned one way or the other about when Mal and the others are leaving or how they might react to his betrayal, because once he's got his ree-ward, he's not going to be with them anymore anyway. He can just wait for them to do whatever they're going to do and leave (or be taken away by Feds), while he has a snack in the 19th-floor cafeteria. Avoidance of Mal is just not an issue.

DELVO

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:49 PM

When I mentioned security forces not being ready yet, I had only brought it up because it seemed that you or someone else might have been thinking that Jayne was rushing them out because he was getting impatient; but that's invalid because rushing the Tams doesn't rush anybody else.

Quote:
By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?

To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?

QUEENTIYE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:50 PM

Oops! Hi Delvo! This message was to Kef...

The feds are very likely NOT slow at all... but setting it up so that there can be a clandestined payoff, and Jayne gets away takes a little work. There are ONLY two people in on the betrayal, Jayne and his contact. His contact (according to my theory) is still looking to be cooperative up till the moment he sees that Jayne backed out (presumably by Jayne not being where he's supposed to be).

One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?

Yeah I thought of that right after I posted the last one.
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.

RHEA

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.

There's an easy explanation for that. If I were Jayne I would tell them as little about the plan as possible so that I could control the where/when of the pickup. Why give away everything?

I assumed that Jayne went for the pickup in an open area so as to maximize his own chances of escape if something went wrong.

Of course, I may be crediting Jayne with too many smarts.

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.

I don't think that having Jayne not change his mind about turning in the Tams is saying that he doesn't have any human decency. Someone else here had a theory which I like that Jayne in fact thought that he was doing the right thing by turning over the Tams. And I do agree that he was bothered by what he saw in the diagnostic room. And that he felt uncomfortable about turning them over. I just don't think it affected him enough to change his mind.
These are all good points you've made, though, 1-3. I understand what you're saying.

THESKINWALKER

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:33 PM

Jayne shoulda cut Rivers throat the second she cut him. That backhand shoulda had a blade in it.

As far as what he was thinking durring the whole betrayl ordeal...I was left with a feeling he redeemed himself somewhat. But he was sure more merciful than I woulda been at the beguining.

You just dont mess with a man's Blue Sun shirt.

TINYTIMM

Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mopbucket:
As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions.

My tax dollars are paying for this?

Jeff
Who hopes ghod helps the next generation.

KEN

Friday, November 22, 2002 10:31 PM

I also think there was no change of heart at the last minute. In part because when they are caught Jayne mentions something about his money to the Fed that double crossed him. If he had a change of heart I don't think he would have asked for his money. Also, if true the Jayne character will have bigger problems as the show goes on thru more episodes.

Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

If, however, they give him some redeeming characteristics, some depth, and a history that fleshes out the character, the writers can have a gfield day with inner conflict as the character himself and the audience discovers how he reacts to situations successfully and from time to time unsuccessfully.

Ken

THEGN

Friday, November 22, 2002 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Yeah, right, Jayne is such a two-dimensional and simplistic character, and of course that explains why there is 94 posts in a single thread within a one week of one episode about one event describing Jayne's character. Clearly it is not the facts that bring you to this opinion, is it?

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

QUEENTIYE

Friday, November 22, 2002 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Ken

We are all entitled to our opinions!

As you can see...mine differs from yours - and I believe that we see quite a lot of depth in Jayne already.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

TRAGICSTORY

Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:05 AM

My 2 cents: (read worthless opinion)

I believe that Jayne had every intention of turning Simon and River into the "feds" and only freed them because it was in his best intrest too. Had they been seperated, I do not see Jayne attempting to find them and rescue them. The only reason I believe this so strongly is the end scene with Jayne and Mal. Until those last minutes, Jayne does not see S & R as crew members, but as passangers. It is after he realizes this that he understnds what he did is wrong, accepts his inevitable death and asks Mal to cover up his shame. If in future episodes, Jayne treats s & R as passangers instead of crew I will stand corrected. But I do not think that will happen.

EVANS

Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas.

He is already 3-dimensional, despite his being a brute. He may be slowly redeeming himself, living and working with people who care about each other, and about him....He worried about getting pinched in Canton, then had fun there, for a while. The boy's losing his life for Jayne threw Jayne into confusion....In "Out of Gas," he went out of his way to get Mal as much air & comfort as possible, and spent a long second staring at Mal (clearly failing to come up with "goodbye"). Later, he seemed to be jealous of Zoe as she conversed with Mal....In "Shindig," he laughed at Mal's cruel comment to Kaylee, insulted Badger while eating the man's food, cheated at cards, and participated in planning an escape'n'rescue operation. In other words, he had fun.

Jayne shows his thoughts & feelings, brutish and simple though they may appear to be. He is not a begrimed cardboard mannequin.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

IDEFIX

Monday, November 25, 2002 2:29 PM

just one little thing I wanted to add to the long debate. and let me say I find it totally cool that there's this really long thread about a fairly new series with fairly new characters. it says something about the quality of this show , don't you think?

so I read this thread on friday and decided to watch the EP again to make sure what I see in it. my first time watching I never thought Jayne might have tried to un-betray (nice word creation) them. I thought he wanted to get the betrayal over with, when he hurried them out the back.

and on my second watching after reading this long thread I noticed something: Jayne said to Simon there was a change of plan and they had to meet out the back in 5 minutes. and when they came out the back door the feds waited there for them.
and then later on when Mal had locked Jayne in the airlock he asked him what he was doing at the back door. and concluded from that that Jayne had called the feds.

so I get the notion that going out back was not in Mals plan. and so I conclude that Jayne wanted to betray them all the time.

that doesn't say he didn't feel bad about it or that he has no heart but I think he made up his plan to get rid of the mad girl and her brother for security and conviniency reasons. he thought he'd do Mal and all aboard Serenity a favour.

and now he knows Mal will take it personally and that was not what he wanted so he'll probably never do it again. and not because he likes them any better now.

Idefix
and sorry for bad english. it isn't my native language.

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