Seeing so many hate proud white people...What is Racism

POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Saturday, September 4, 2010 16:43
VIEWED: 7046
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KANEMAN

Monday, August 30, 2010 11:10 PM

Warning the following post contains the truth those who live in a liberal loopthought and do not want their ideas challenged...go hug a tree

There is surely no nation in the world that holds "racism" in greater horror than does the United States. Compared to other kinds of offenses, it is thought to be somehow more reprehensible. The press and public have become so used to tales of murder, rape, robbery, and arson, that any but the most spectacular crimes are shrugged off as part of the inevitable texture of American life. "Racism" is never shrugged off. For example, when a white Georgetown Law School student reported earlier this year that black students are not as qualified as white students, it set off a booming, national controversy about "racism." If the student had merely murdered someone he would have attracted far less attention and criticism.
Racism is, indeed, the national obsession. Universities are on full alert for it, newspapers and politicians denounce it, churches preach against it, America is said to be racked with it, but just what *is* racism?
Dictionaries are not much help in understanding what is meant by the word. They usually define it as the belief that one's own ethnic stock is superior to others, or as the belief that culture and behavior are rooted in race. When Americans speak of racism they mean a great deal more than this. Nevertheless, the dictionary definition of racism is a clue to understanding what Americans *do* mean. A peculiarly American meaning derives from the current dogma that all ethnic stocks are equal. Despite clear evidence to the contrary, all races have been declared to be equally talented and hard- working, and anyone who questions the dogma is thought to be not merely wrong but evil.
The dogma has logical consequences that are profoundly important. If blacks, for example, are equal to whites in every way, what accounts for their poverty, criminality, and dissipation? Since any theory of racial differences has been outlawed, the only possible explanation for black failure is white racism. And since blacks are markedly poor, crime-prone, and dissipated, America must be racked with pervasive racism. Nothing else could be keeping them in such an abject state.
All public discourse on race today is locked into this rigid logic. Any explanation for black failure that does not depend on white wickedness threatens to veer off into the forbidden territory of racial differences. Thus, even if today's whites can find in their hearts no desire to oppress blacks, yesterday's whites must have oppressed them. If whites do not consciously oppress blacks, they must oppress them UNconsciously. If no obviously racist individuals can be identified, then *institutions* must be racist. Or, since blacks are failing so terribly in America, there simply must be millions of white people we do not know about, who are working day and night to keep blacks in misery. The dogma of racial equality leaves no room for an explanation of black failure that is not, in some fashion, an indictment of white people.
The logical consequences of this are clear. Since we are required to believe that the only explanation for non-white failure is white racism, every time a non-white is poor, commits a crime, goes on welfare, or takes drugs, white society stands accused of yet another act of racism. All failure or misbehavior by non-whites is standing proof that white society is riddled with hatred and bigotry. For precisely so long as non-whites fail to succeed in life at exactly the same level as whites, whites will be, by definition, thwarting and oppressing them. This obligatory pattern of thinking leads to strange conclusions. First of all, racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by white people. Indeed, a black congressman from Chicago, Gus Savage, and Coleman Young, the black mayor of Detroit, have argued that only white people *can* be racist. Likewise, in 1987, the affirmative action officer of the State Insurance Fund of New York issued a company pa

KANEMAN

Monday, August 30, 2010 11:12 PM

All across the country, black, Hispanic, and Asian clubs and caucuses are thought to be fine expressions of ethnic solidarity, but any club or association expressly for whites is by definition racist. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) campaigns openly for black advantage but is a respected "civil rights" organization. The National Association for the Advancement of White People (NAAWP) campaigns merely for equal treatment of all races, but is said to be viciously racist.

KANEMAN

Monday, August 30, 2010 11:35 PM

* According to the latest US Department of Justice survey of crime victims, more than 6.6 million violent crimes (murder, rape, assault and robbery) are committed in the US each year, of which about 20 per cent, or 1.3 million, are inter-racial crimes.

* Most victims of race crime - about 90 per cent - are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993.

* Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans , compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey.

* Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

* According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most inter-racial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks.

Who is racist? What is racism?

STORYMARK

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Warning the following post contains the petulant ramblings, those who live anywhere but ultra neoconland and do not want think EXACTLY LIKE I DO...need not bother with this bullshit.

Gotcha.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 12:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Warning the following post contains the petulant ramblings, those who live anywhere but ultra neoconland and do not want think EXACTLY LIKE I DO...need not bother with this bullshit.

I would have bet you were one of the cowards. It is only an essay...It can't bite you. Or did you read it and can not debate the truths you read?

Gotcha.

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FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:54 AM

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
It is any resistance by whites to the idea of becoming a minority people.

I find this actually fits the bill of racism.

After all, how can you possibly resist something like that? You can not like it, which however implies that being a minority is sucky thing to be, which implies that there's a level of inequality leveled at current minorities, which undermines the claim that there is no such thing as racism.

But "resistance"? What's that supposed to look like? I can't think of a non-creepy way to resist such a development.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Never fails to make me smile.

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:07 AM

Oh the poor white man!

Oh the poor oppressed white man!

Oh the poor victim of racism white man!

Oh, someone get me a crying towel!

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
It is any resistance by whites to the idea of becoming a minority people.

I find this actually fits the bill of racism.

After all, how can you possibly resist something like that? You can not like it, which however implies that being a minority is sucky thing to be, which implies that there's a level of inequality leveled at current minorities, which undermines the claim that there is no such thing as racism.

But "resistance"? What's that supposed to look like? I can't think of a non-creepy way to resist such a development.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Never fails to make me smile.

How about leveling the playing field? You know letting everyman live by his own merits. Seems we love telling our children that they can be anything they want to be here in America if they work hard at it, however it is becoming clear that for a lot of white children this may not be true. And don't forget a lot of people considered white came later and were never WASPs(thus never got any economic beniefit from slavery), however they are discriminated against in favor of any non-white reguardless of wether the non-white came into this country yesturday.

See, I don't have a problem with affirmative action for the black decendents of slaves. I can see the disadvantage and mistreatment they received for a longtime in this country, but when that extends to any person of color, being they just came to America last week, that never faced that hardship seems kinda unfair to the Irishmen or Italians that came after slavery, that we allow for discrimination against them in favor of an immigrant from Niarobi that did not have the disadvantage of unjust slavery at the hands of WASPs. Or a japaneese, mexican, or any "non-white" for that matter appears unjust.

I don't see how any honest person can see this as right. Affirmative action should only be for black decendents of Slavery. And it should have a time table.....Or should we do it forever?

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Frem that picture is the point. We have laws that protect Gays, Blacks, Jews, women, and a whole slew of others from discrimanation, yet at the same time we allow for the systematic discrimenation against a group because they are considered white. How is that being "Tolerant" or "Understanding"?....How about being "Fair" and "Constitutional"?

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:18 PM

I love "systematic discrimination" of whites. That's a good laugh. Let's see, who makes up the majority of our legislators, by a long shot? Who makes up the majority of CEOs, etc.? Power is what counts, what determines how the rest of us live.

I think whites and especially white WOMEN have a long ways to go before they are even EQUAL in representation, power, etc. And white women aren't even a real "minority". I won't live to see it, but I wish I could.

All the bullshit about crime is irrelevant unless all races have the same living standard and are allowed to grow up past the age of 18...poverty and discriminatio make for ghettos and desperation. It proves nothing.

Until we reach ACTUAL equality, white haven't a goddamned thing to complain about. Oppressed, they are not.

The description of your living situation, Kane (which no doubt is a complete lie), is a perfect example of the inequity...I'd LOVE to see how you behaved if you were poor and your ability to live to adulthood was questionable. The hate crimes almost always involve other races who dare to involve themselves in mostly-white activities, I'd be willing to bet. And of COURSE the statistics have nothing to do with police being more willing to pull over/arrest/etc. races other than white. I believe THAT's been proven, as well.

Story, I love it:

Quote:
Warning the following post contains the petulant ramblings, those who live anywhere but ultra neoconland and do not want think EXACTLY LIKE I DO...need not bother with this bullshit

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

STORYMARK

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 5:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Warning the following post contains the petulant ramblings, those who live anywhere but ultra neoconland and do not want think EXACTLY LIKE I DO...need not bother with this bullshit.

I would have bet you were one of the cowards. It is only an essay...It can't bite you. Or did you read it and can not debate the truths you read?

Gotcha.

I didn't read it because I don't give even a tiny shit what you have to say.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:38 PM

*enters thread breathing heavily*

I have boy parts, and teh [sic] white guilt. Would someone please berate me for being the beneficiary of inequality?

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:43 PM

SHAME ON YOU Mincing! You were born White--that's YOUR fault; you were born male--that's YOUR fault. You were probably born to white parents, which is THEIR fault. You've gotten all the breaks, which other races haven't, that's YOUR fault...

Oh, wait, I was supposed to be berating you for being the VICTIM, wasn't I?

Uhhh...nothing comes to mind, sorry.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:50 PM

Curses Niki, you evaded my cunning trap.

It makes me giggle whenever folks with racist tendencies, who happen to be pale, try to cast themselves as the true victims of racism.

I became aware of this clever rhetorical counter several years ago during the fight over affirmative action in relation to school admission.

It seems to be a new spin on the white man's burden, which co-opts the language of the civil rights movement. Actually, its rather clever, and effective.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:52 PM

An an unrelated note, white and brown and black pride are all rather silly, in that folks ought not take credit for, or pride in, things that they cannot control.

However, this pride takes place in a...power context...wherein there is something immensely more threatening about a privileged group celebrating its status, than say, a relative minority that nobody really gives a damn about anyway.

As a white dude, I have the privilege of ignoring black people, which is almost always. Were I a black dude, I would not be able to ignore white folks, considering they are the dominant power structure and culture (at least until we are all driven to extinction by the mexicans).

KLESST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:23 PM

I am a proud White person, descended from an exclusive group with ultra White ancestors. We ultra Whites look down on the common whites like they might look down on other races. Given the opportunity, we would put the semi-whites in camps and do bad things to them so they would have a reason to feel persecuted.

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Curses Niki, you evaded my cunning trap.

It makes me giggle whenever folks with racist tendencies, who happen to be pale, try to cast themselves as the true victims of racism.

I became aware of this clever rhetorical counter several years ago during the fight over affirmative action in relation to school admission.

It seems to be a new spin on the white man's burden, which co-opts the language of the civil rights movement. Actually, its rather clever, and effective.

I was unaware that the civil rights movement had a language in which the words only had meaning unto itself.
That is why I've prefered "what's good for the Goose...."

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Klesst:
I am a proud White person, descended from an exclusive group with ultra White ancestors. We ultra Whites look down on the common whites like they might look down on other races. Given the opportunity, we would put the semi-whites in camps and do bad things to them so they would have a reason to feel persecuted.

Are you so white you glow in the dark?

Because that would be totally superior!

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Klesst:
I am a proud White person, descended from an exclusive group with ultra White ancestors. We ultra Whites look down on the common whites like they might look down on other races. Given the opportunity, we would put the semi-whites in camps and do bad things to them so they would have a reason to feel persecuted.

Are you so white you glow in the dark? Because that would be totally superior!

My big left toe glows in the dark. My parents always told me it was because they lived near three-mile island while my mother was pregnant with me. Then I was babysat 1 mile from the Humboldt smelter. Great memories.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:

That is why I've prefered "what's good for the Goose...."

Your old saw can be used to support sodomy (nearly anything can, actually). To whit: whats good for the goose is the gander...whats good for the gander is the gander.

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KLESST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Klesst:
I am a proud White person, descended from an exclusive group with ultra White ancestors. We ultra Whites look down on the common whites like they might look down on other races. Given the opportunity, we would put the semi-whites in camps and do bad things to them so they would have a reason to feel persecuted.

Are you so white you glow in the dark? Because that would be totally superior!

Lets just say that if you saw my legs at the beach you would be glad you wore your sunglasses. Those of us with red hair often do glow in moonlight.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:08 PM

My legs have not seen sunlight for about three years, mostly because the scars kind of just stay white and I end up looking looking like an okapi or something.

I have scottish pride? I'm probably one of the few people who has ever tried haggis and likes it. Clan Chattan go.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
My legs have not seen sunlight for about three years, mostly because the scars kind of just stay white and I end up looking looking like an okapi or something.

I have scottish pride? I'm probably one of the few people who has ever tried haggis and likes it. Clan Chattan go.

vegan haggis?

for scottish pride, see generally Trainspotting ("We . . . are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes").

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:20 PM

Wasn't vegan back then. Though I'd love to figure out how to make something like it, and get the spices right.

Quote:
for scottish pride, see generally Trainspotting ("We . . . are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes")

Well... At least we get Highlanders, both crazy kilt-wearing blue-painted claymore wielding kinds and immortals who fight each other to the death.

ALIASSE

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:45 PM

*falls to knees, blinded by the Truth of Kaneman's post and the whiteness of sundry posters' legs*

STORYMARK

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

It makes me giggle whenever folks with racist tendencies, who happen to be pale, try to cast themselves as the true victims of racism.

You must get a hell of a lot of laughs from RWED these days, then.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:09 PM

You're absolutely right, Mincing, in that it's very effective. I swear, one HAS to admire the right for how good they are at all this!

Quote:
As a white dude, I have the privilege of ignoring black people, which is almost always. Were I a black dude, I would not be able to ignore white folks, considering they are the dominant power structure and culture

Bang on!

Klest, I LOVE it! I’d be one of those “less white”, ‘cuz I inherited daddy’s olive skin. He came from New York, his family can trace their roots straight back to England (where we all know, they’re pasty white). So where o where did that olive skin come from? Mom was pure French, and they’re ALMOST as pasty white, and she certainly was, so I wonder what surprises lurked in daddy’s ancestry?

Me, as Choey jokes, I can get a tan walking to the mailbox. You have my deepest sympathy; redheads got a raw deal, and that’s the truth! Those I’ve known really suffer from sun, poison oak, and about anything else that can attack pale skin. Mozzies are my only problem; they seem to think I’m the best thing since sliced bred. But I wouldn’t change it for what you guys go through!

Story, while I don’t get laughs, I get lots of smiles and shaking of the head. Does that count?

Mincing, sorry to disappoint...I did try.

Quote:
folks ought not take credit for, or pride in, things that they cannot control

Damned straight...that's at least half the problem. "Our forefathers", "my ancestors"--all the things we take credit for because we were born in this particular longitude and latitude, kinda make me sick. I take pride in what the hippies did and what we tried to do, but I was there DOING it...people who take pride in what their ancestors did leaves my eyes crossed.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aliasse:
*falls to knees, blinded by the Truth of Kaneman's post and the whiteness of sundry posters' legs*

Do share what is so truthful in my post that would cause one to drop onto knees quicker than Kwicko in a bath-house?

KANEMAN

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:25 PM

Could this be trutheness

Today, one of the favorite slogans that define the asymmetric quality of American racism is "celebration of diversity." It has begun to dawn on a few people that "diversity" is always achieved at the expense of whites (and sometimes men), and never the other way around. No one proposes that Howard University be made more diverse by admitting whites, Hispanics, or Asians. No one ever suggests that National Hispanic University in San Jose (CA) would benefit from the diversity of having non-Hispanics on campus. No one suggests that the Black Congressional Caucus or the executive ranks of the NAACP or the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Educational Fund suffer from a lack of diversity. Somehow, it is perfectly legitimate for them to celebrate *homogeneity*. And yet any all-white group - a company, a town, a school, a club, a neighborhood - is thought to suffer from a crippling lack of diversity that must be remedied as quickly as possible. Only when whites have been reduced to a minority has "diversity" been achieved.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:45 PM

Quote:
Damned straight...that's at least half the problem. "Our forefathers", "my ancestors"--all the things we take credit for because we were born in this particular longitude and latitude, kinda make me sick. I take pride in what the hippies did and what we tried to do, but I was there DOING it...people who take pride in what their ancestors did leaves my eyes crossed.

That's a little harsh. Are we not supposed to have pride in knowing our own personal family history and in whatever culture we have managed to hold on to? There's good and bad in all of our histories, but there's nothing wrong with being grateful for your ancestors for allowing you to be here today. This is a strange statement.

I imagine a number of Latinos, and Asian Americans, and Native Americans would look at YOU cross eyed for not honoring your ancestors. Even if you don't go as far as they do and believe your ancestors can influence your life from beyond the veil or whatever, there is comfort in knowing who you are and what you came from, it's a comfort I begrudge no one, white or persons of colour.

My ancestors fought with the Jacobites in the Battle of Culloden. I've visited their mass grave site where some of my distant relatives were slaughtered to the man, and sometimes even to the women and children by the Butcher of York. Then after about a half century of economic troubles and British oppression, one of them listened to a crazy man and decided to make the long journey from Scotland to the new world for their own promised land. It's a stubbornness and a pioneering spirit I'm not ashamed of.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:51 PM

Byte, isn't it a bit like taking pride in inherited wealth?

Anyway, I curse my ancestors for ensuring that I could be here today. I am, however, delighted that my ancestors killed Jesus.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:03 AM

What inherited wealth? They blew all their money to come here, and took every advantage of the Homestead Act. They didn't have it as bad as racial minority groups, but being a religious minority was no picnic either. Even if they kindasorta brought that on themselves, but I digress.

Nah, I just have a rich history and culture that I happen to be aware of.

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:05 AM

Yeah, the inherited-wealth thing occurred to me as I was writing the post...to me, it's about the same thing. I can be proud of the American people, or an individual or something, or even my country, but I don't feel any pride in what those who bore me or who bore them "did". JMHO.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:11 AM

I find it a little sad that you had to go out and FIND a new culture for yourself, Niki. There's something colorful and important in your makeup that you've lost/forgotten/given up.

This kind of disconnect to people's own family history is what makes mainstream white American culture so vacant, people have to make up subcultures to join so they can fill the hole. :( Assimilate and all will be well. No wonder the mainstream stresses fitting in to the expense of everything else; people in the mainstream don't have anything else to fall back on. Like you're an island in time, and nothing before you has any influence on you, like you feel like you didn't NEED anyone else to bring you where you are today.

KANEMAN

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Damned straight...that's at least half the problem. "Our forefathers", "my ancestors"--all the things we take credit for because we were born in this particular longitude and latitude, kinda make me sick. I take pride in what the hippies did and what we tried to do, but I was there DOING it...people who take pride in what their ancestors did leaves my eyes crossed.

That's a little harsh. Are we not supposed to have pride in knowing our own personal family history and in whatever culture we have managed to hold on to? There's good and bad in all of our histories, but there's nothing wrong with being grateful for your ancestors for allowing you to be here today. This is a strange statement.

I imagine a number of Latinos, and Asian Americans, and Native Americans would look at YOU cross eyed for not honoring your ancestors. Even if you don't go as far as they do and believe your ancestors can influence your life from beyond the veil or whatever, there is comfort in knowing who you are and what you came from, it's a comfort I begrudge no one, white or persons of colour.

My ancestors fought with the Jacobites in the Battle of Culloden. I've visited their mass grave site where some of my distant relatives were slaughtered to the man, and sometimes even to the women and children by the Butcher of York. Then after about a half century of economic troubles and British oppression, one of them listened to a crazy man and decided to make the long journey from Scotland to the new world for their own promised land. It's a stubbornness and a pioneering spirit I'm not ashamed of.

Where is the love for those who made this Longitude and latitude so damned "in demand" ya know the constitution and white men? Why would you be ashamed of what we are, sure we've had slavery, sure we've discrimanated against women, sure we have allowed our government to carve us into groups, however we live together and have the same fight "the little people against the big" , and have corrected our wrongs(see....linclon, civil rights votes(Republican)

... and we are winning. the "put us into groups and control us types" are going BYE BYE...we are all freemen regaudless of color, creed, or religion....If whitemen win(which is inevitable) unless the asians win.

That the same group that voted against civil rights(in our parents life times) swares to enslave them with welfare and freebee's is hilarious......Or does it prove they(blacks) cannot compete with whites on an even playing field...nice message.

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:31 AM

Byte, you can't give up what you never had. I have no "culture". My mom was an immigrant with her mom and grandmother; there's nobody on that side of the family that I ever knew. My dad came from New York and rarely spoke, much less told me about his family, and there were no members of his family we were ever in contact with.

Don't pity me, heavens no. I've been lucky to lead a rich life with experiences some others have never had; I've looked back, and I couldn't ask for more.

So I didn't have to "find" a subculture, as I didn't have a culture to begin with--except the general culture of America, which I'm quite happy with where most things are concerned. I left home at 16. I never considered being a hippie a "culture"--if I did, then I had several, like folkdancing, Renaissance Faire, etc...in all those I had friends who shared things in common with me, but we didn't consider it a "culture."

Aside from which, you're misunderstanding me. I have nothing against individuals honoring their ancestors or their culture; my argument is only about TAKING CREDIT for what those before them did. Just like inherited wealth; what the generation before us did, we can be grateful for, but I don't see taking "pride" in things I didn't do myself...that just seems false to me. Your mileage may very well vary.

So let me be very clear: I find nothing wrong with hooring, loving, being grateful to or anything ELSE when it comes to a person's ancestors; my only dislike is the idea of taking CREDIT for what they did. Is that clearer?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 12:37 AM

(Crossposted with Niki)

I hope the obvious confusion about pride in one's heritage has more to do with the poverty of our English language than the awkward contempt for the past seemingly on display here. Granted, the pride one has in one's bloodline, one's culture, isn't exactly the same sort of pride one has in one's own accomplishments. Kinda the way loving one's self and loving another person are expressed in different ways. There are different kinds, different modalities, of pride.

But it's not all that different, really. Pride in one's heritage is entirely consistent with pride in one's self, in that it's part of what makes each of us who and what we are. Our past, our blood, our families are an unchanging part of who and what we are today and going forward. What inspired our forebears, can inspire us. Western culture tends to er on the side of alienation, no more so than in this peculiar arrogance Bytemite's talking about.

I'm grateful for my heritage, I'm proud to be a consequence of the greatness that came before me, and the struggles and the hardships my forebears suffered. Why did they go through the pain and suffering if not to give me a chance to exist, to live, to carry on? They lived in hope of me, just as I live in hope of my cultural descendents. All people do this, consciously or not, it's innate.

If I am proud of myself, mustn't I give some credit for who I am to who they were? And if they are indeed my family, am I wrong to be proud of them for this?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 1:54 AM

Quote:
So let me be very clear: I find nothing wrong with honoring, loving, being grateful to or anything ELSE when it comes to a person's ancestors; my only dislike is the idea of taking CREDIT for what they did. Is that clearer?

Understood.

Quote:
So I didn't have to "find" a subculture, as I didn't have a culture to begin with--except the general culture of America, which I'm quite happy with where most things are concerned. I left home at 16. I never considered being a hippie a "culture"--if I did, then I had several, like folkdancing, Renaissance Faire, etc...in all those I had friends who shared things in common with me, but we didn't consider it a "culture."

I actually do consider those cultures, in that you probably develop a sense of community when you're around those people.

Don't get me wrong, it's not false or bad to identify yourself with a group and feel like you belong. It's an essential part of human nature. >_> My wariness stems from the fact that removal of family culture is something intentional and systematic, and that some of these invented cultures are intentionally pit against each other.

KWICKO

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Byte, isn't it a bit like taking pride in inherited wealth?

Anyway, I curse my ancestors for ensuring that I could be here today. I am, however, delighted that my ancestors killed Jesus.

It was the only way they could shut him the fuck up!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

KLESST

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:11 AM

The Beast's ancestors.

KANEMAN

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 9:32 AM

NIKI2 (astonishingly hypocritical) wrote:

"So let me be very clear: I find nothing wrong with hooring, loving, being grateful to or anything ELSE when it comes to a person's ancestors; my only dislike is the idea of taking CREDIT for what they did. Is that clearer?"

In a thread about the injustice of systemic racism against white people, that is justified soley on the acts of their ancestors, that statement is hilarious. So, let me be clear..you dislike the idea of someone taking CREDIT for what their ancestors did, but you don't mind someone being discrimanated against and blamed for what their ances.......Blah, forget it, like talking to an egg.

ECGORDON

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Affirmative action should only be for black decendents of Slavery. And it should have a time table.....Or should we do it forever?

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so someone may have already addressed this. Are you honestly going to leave native Americans (both Amerindians and Hispanics of the Southwest) out of this equation? They have suffered as much discrimination as blacks, and their lands stolen. The fact that many Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans should actually place native Americans higher on the list of peoples we owe restitution.

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KANEMAN

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:28 PM

No. We gave native Americans land and casinos. Settled up. Hispanics are less than dogs in my eyes, they get nothing. The money we should have given them is all used up on paying for illegals and washing their graffiti off of our lovely bridges and buildings......Next you will be asking for affirmative action for women from men because we bang them, impregnate them, and as a result their pussies get stretched out...Is that what you want?

ECGORDON

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:36 PM

Hispanics are only crossing the border that we moved on them in the first place.

I'm sure some of what you just said was meant in sarcasm, but if not, you're more of a menace than anyone from any other race.

In the immortal words of Bobby Singer, "You're such an idjit!"

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:40 PM

Shoulda just bought the slaves and freed them, like the French did. Would have cost less than the Civil War, probably.

Native Americans DID get a bad rap. But it's hard to call who had it worse, blacks or the tribes; on one hand the tribes were subject to genocide and the relocation, on the other, once they were relocated they were mostly left alone except for ignorant missionaries and government agents taking away their children to reeducate them. But then blacks intentionally had their families split apart, couldn't get an education, were forced into manual labor and suffered rape and physical abuse.

As for Hispanics in the Texas and Louisiana purchase area, I don't know, maybe sort of a little like Native Americans if you squint. We fought a war against them, sure, probably did steal their land, but didn't systematically try to wipe out their culture and language. Probably because they were still at least recognizably European.

Only possible form of restitution I can see is education, but the education system is going to require a lot of fixes before it evenly meets the needs of every population.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:48 PM

Quote:
Hispanics are only crossing the border that we moved on them in the first place.

Mmm, while there might be some Latino and Chicano student unions who claim rights to the land and espouse some sort of La Razza nationalism, I don't think that's the primary motivation of the migrant worker who's doing the actual border hopping.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hispanics are less than dogs in my eyes, they get nothing.

Let's all remember this the next time this douchebag denies being a racist.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:15 PM

Cav, I agree with your explanation of pride in heritage. My opinion is MY opinion, and may well be a result of my not really having any “heritage”. But if I were to be proud of my ancestors, shouldn’t I also be ashamed of the bad things they’ve done; i.e., slavery, Japanese internment camps, destruction of the native inhabitants, abuses of Chinese laborers, racism, etc., racism against Blacks and others (and I would add destruction of the herds of buffalo and the way it was done, eradication of wolves and so many other predators as we populated the country, pollution of our water, air and land, and on and on). If I were to take pride in their accomplishments, I would also have to be ashamed of others.

There I recognize that I indulge in the latter without indulging in the former; I AM proud of America in general in what we have attempted to do with this “experiment”, but it’s a general pride, not one felt for my individual ancestors, and equally I am ashamed of some of what they have done. That’s a personal feeling.

I do, however, recognize the desire to make a better life for those who follow and that it is a natural human impetus.

Byte, I take your point and it is valid to me. I would argue, however, that “family cultures” are also pitted against one another, and via that very culture which is engendered IN the family. Maybe that’s part of it for me; I reject the culture I was born into, to a degree, and accept the cultures I chose for myself. To say family cultures aren’t pitted against one another is to ignore the obvious; ergo I see little relevance in that argument. In fact, family cultures, to me, engender MORE negativity toward other cultures than those we choose by following our own chosen values.

Kane, I recognized what you said above, before I read your post. It’s a valid point; I see more of the negativity in what our ancestors created than positive, and in that I am wrong. I still make the argument that I DO balance it out to a degree by the fact that I am VERY proud of what they created insofar as the laws and intentions of this country. I’m not sure if my more-negative view is a result of my not having “family culture”, but I do applaud the things in our past which our ancestors built to a degree, I just don’t think they are 100% laudable. If that doesn’t make sense to you, there’s nothing I can do about it. Bear in mind that I HAVE no specific “family culture”...my mother was 100% French...so how can I be proud of that half of my ancestry (given I am prejudiced against the French for many reasons). I would be divided, if I chose to. My ancestors on that side had nothing to do with building America or anything it stands for, for the most part.

Gordon, I agree 100%, and I think it’s a very valid point. The Native Americans WERE mentioned by someone, but it doesn’t lessen the validity of your point, and nobody else has brought up the Mexicans or other races except you and myself, I believe. (But now I have to come back and thank you, as well, because the question of other races WAS addressed subsquent to your bringing them up.) The concept that we “paid back” Native Americans for giving them land—then shoving it off it because we wanted it and driving them to other, less viable land, over and over, until they are left with virtually uninhabitable land and stuck in poverty...casinos don’t make up for that, and corrupted whites made (maybe “make” still) most of the money off them. The corruption of those who regulate what happens to Native Americans is abhorrent and unconscionable.

As to Mexicans, I won’t even discuss that it’s so egregious...except for the fact that is by far and away WHITE youngsters who create graffiti. In that respect I also agree 100% with your subsequent response.

Byte, I agree with your response 100%; also your subsequent post.

Story, hon, we don’t need to remember that to remember he’s racist...tho’ it’s hard to tell whether he’s being sarcastic or not, I tend to think he’s not, given previous co

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:53 PM

Quote:
Byte, I take your point and it is valid to me. I would argue, however, that “family cultures” are also pitted against one another, and via that very culture which is engendered IN the family.

I had four hours of sleep last night. Brain says "Hwuh?" Clarification needed.

Quote:
To say family cultures aren’t pitted against one another is to ignore the obvious; ergo I see little relevance in that argument.

Did I say that? I don't recall having said that.

My take is culture itself has a few traits that define it, separate from unfortunate associations and values which may be dropped or adopted. You can be raised with a very latino culture, or some kind of inner city black culture, or as a white southerner, and not actually end up with any any urge to assert your culture or attack disliked cultures.

But certain cultures are created intentionally to attack or be attacked. Look at, say, a school yard and styles and attitudes and the labels kids put on themselves. "freaks" vs. "geeks," both of them versus "jocks" and "preps." And, in the adult world, sometimes, right wing versus left wing.

KANEMAN

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hispanics are less than dogs in my eyes, they get nothing.

Let's all remember this the next time this douchebag denies being a racist.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Skidmark, fuck you. I've never claimed not to be a racist(and if I did I take it back), However these little vermonous mexicans are slithering across the border and making everything smell bad. So fuck off you cunt cocksucker. You can't debate the rationality and truth of my original post so you strawman...I think you are a niggoroni or a spic....with no span

use your coupons, you fucking tampoon.....just one black chick from Tanzania's opinion...

MINCINGBEAST

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 6:43 PM

Kane, your claim to have black girl parts, and hail from Africa, does not cloak you in credibility.

However, my new assertion, that I am a bisexual mulatto hermaphrodite from Yemen, gives my arguments a new legitimacy.

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 6:58 PM

Byte, it is to this which I was responding:

Quote:
I actually do consider those cultures, in that you probably develop a sense of community when you're around those people.

Don't get me wrong, it's not false or bad to identify yourself with a group and feel like you belong. It's an essential part of human nature. >_> My wariness stems from the fact that removal of family culture is something intentional and systematic, and that some of these invented cultures are intentionally pit against each other.

With that in mind, does my reply make sense?

I mostly agree with your response, too, especially about schoolyard stuff.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

KANEMAN

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Kane, your claim to have black girl parts, and hail from Africa, does not cloak you in credibility.

However, my new assertion, that I am a bisexual mulatto hermaphrodite from Yemen, gives my arguments a new legitimacy.

Once only Mince. I enjoy your wordyness and poetry of thought...

My new assertion is that the decayed and degraded state of your jenkem huffing common sense mind, and logical, independent thinking is... A person, who is not; willing to stand up and fight for anything except for his our her's own safety; is a coward, and has no chance of being free unless made so; by the efforts of stronger men and women that are willing to play your game and fucking giggle at your FFF.net fart bombs.. I could write tongue splitting ironies and wordy-gurdys...I choose to make a racist point. What say you....Tongue Tampoon?....-15 for spelling

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 7:33 PM

Quote:
With that in mind, does my reply make sense?

I knew that's what you were responding to, but I still don't know what you meant exactly by stuff family cultures engender that can pit them against each other.

I *think* you were talking about prejudices? So I took a stab in the dark with the next couple of paragraphs. Basically I see values and prejudices as distinct from culture, in that culture usually just describes a set of tastes, beliefs, and a lifestyle. If not everyone in the culture has a trait or a belief, then that trait or belief is not a definitive part of the culture.

KANEMAN

Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
With that in mind, does my reply make sense?

I knew that's what you were responding to, but I still don't know what you meant exactly by stuff family cultures engender that can pit them against each other.

I *think* you were talking about prejudices? So I took a stab in the dark with the next couple of paragraphs. Basically I see values and prejudices as distinct from culture, in that culture usually just describes a set of tastes, beliefs, and a lifestyle. If not everyone in the culture has a trait or a belief, then that trait or belief is not a definitive part of the culture.

You are beating around the truth.......Have some balls...

NIKI2

Thursday, September 2, 2010 1:18 AM

Quote:
If not everyone in the culture has a trait or a belief, then that trait or belief is not a definitive part of the culture.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Byte. I know of few cultures where everyone shares traits and beliefs, yet they are cultures.

I do think some family cultures pit people against others or other cultures. There are myriad examples, but I believe you are sharp enough to know of what I am speaking. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

KANEMAN

Saturday, September 4, 2010 12:22 AM

Beat whitey night.....hate crimes? of course not ...see my original post...this is fine with you all?

NIKI2

Saturday, September 4, 2010 12:58 AM

NOTHING excuses ANY hate crime. However, if one were to bother to list all the hate crimes in America, anti-gay, anti-muslim and anti-black would so far outnumber any argument that could be made, that it's not even worth thinking about.

Oh, what the hell, it only takes a couple of minutes, the FBI keeps statistics:

Quote:
Racial bias]

4,704 offenses among single-bias hate crime incidents were racially motivated. Of these offenses:

■72.6 percent were motivated by anti-black bias.
■17.3 percent stemmed from anti-white bias.
■5.5 percent were a result of bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).
■3.4 percent resulted from anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.
■1.3 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.

Sexual-orientation bias

Of the single-bias incidents, 1,617 offenses were committed based on sexual-orientation bias. Of these offenses:

■58.6 percent were the result of anti-male homosexual bias.
■25.7 percent were motivated by anti-homosexual bias.
■12.0 percent were prompted by anti-female homosexual bias.
■2.0 percent were the result of anti-heterosexual bias.
■1.7 percent were motivated by anti-bisexual bias.

Religious bias

There were 1,606 hate crime offenses motivated by religious bias in 2008. A breakdown of these offenses shows:

■65.7 percent were anti-Jewish.
■13.2 percent were anti-other religion.
■7.7 percent were anti-Islamic.
■4.7 percent were anti-Catholic.
■4.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
■3.7 percent were anti-Protestant.
■0.9 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc.

Ethnicity/national origin bias

In 2008, law enforcement agencies reported 1,148 offenses were committed based on the perceived ethnicity or national origin of the victim. Of these offenses:

■64.0 percent were due to anti-Hispanic bias.
■36.0 percent were because of anti-other ethnicity/national origin bias.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html

Those are the most recent statistics available from the FBI, from 2008. That's, 82.8% against all other races, as opposed to 17.3 against Whites. Still wanna compare?

More recently, although there are no statistics:

Quote:
The heated debate over Cordoba House, the Islamic community center planned to be constructed two blocks away from Ground Zero, has now turned violent.

While many have voiced concerns that the project's leaders may have ties to terrorism, and that the mosque may be used in order to further a violent, oppressive agenda of Islamist domination, the recent crime wave has in actuality been directed from those opposed to the community center toward Muslims themselves.

This week, vandals have committed a string of hate crimes against a mosque in Madera, just about an hour away from my hometown. A brick was thrown at a window, and menacing signs were left that said "No temple for the god of terrorism" and "Wake up America, the enemy is here."

Fresno Bee

While the people behind these attacks ("The American Nationalist Brotherhood") are undeniably extremists, whom most of the anti-Cordoba crowd would condemn, this is not the only recent incident of anti-Muslim violence, nor is it the scariest.

Earlier this week, a college student slashed the throat and face of a New York cab driver after asking if he was a Muslim. The victim survived.

NYT

Back in May, a pipe bomb was set off at a Florida mosque during morning prayer, where about 60 people were in attendance. Luckily, no one was hurt.

aolnews

If only one of these crimes had occurred, it may have been fair to label it an "isolated incident." But the sheer number and frequency of these acts shut that idea down immediately. This is indicative of a larger trend of anti-Muslim sentiment. A sentiment that has been fostered, I would argue, by the right wing.

While most opponents of Cordoba House a

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KANEMAN

Saturday, September 4, 2010 1:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
NOTHING excuses ANY hate crime. However, if one were to bother to list all the hate crimes in America, anti-gay, anti-muslim and anti-black would so far outnumber any argument that could be made, that it's not even worth thinking about.

Oh, what the hell, it only takes a couple of minutes, the FBI keeps statistics:
Quote:
Racial bias]

4,704 offenses among single-bias hate crime incidents were racially motivated. Of these offenses:

■72.6 percent were motivated by anti-black bias.
■17.3 percent stemmed from anti-white bias.
■5.5 percent were a result of bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).
■3.4 percent resulted from anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.
■1.3 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.

Sexual-orientation bias

Of the single-bias incidents, 1,617 offenses were committed based on sexual-orientation bias. Of these offenses:

■58.6 percent were the result of anti-male homosexual bias.
■25.7 percent were motivated by anti-homosexual bias.
■12.0 percent were prompted by anti-female homosexual bias.
■2.0 percent were the result of anti-heterosexual bias.
■1.7 percent were motivated by anti-bisexual bias.

Religious bias

There were 1,606 hate crime offenses motivated by religious bias in 2008. A breakdown of these offenses shows:

■65.7 percent were anti-Jewish.
■13.2 percent were anti-other religion.
■7.7 percent were anti-Islamic.
■4.7 percent were anti-Catholic.
■4.2 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
■3.7 percent were anti-Protestant.
■0.9 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc.

Ethnicity/national origin bias

In 2008, law enforcement agencies reported 1,148 offenses were committed based on the perceived ethnicity or national origin of the victim. Of these offenses:

■64.0 percent were due to anti-Hispanic bias.
■36.0 percent were because of anti-other ethnicity/national origin bias.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html

Those are the most recent statistics available from the FBI, from 2008. That's, 82.8% against all other races, as opposed to 17.3 against Whites. Still wanna compare?

More recently, although there are no statistics:
Quote:
The heated debate over Cordoba House, the Islamic community center planned to be constructed two blocks away from Ground Zero, has now turned violent.

While many have voiced concerns that the project's leaders may have ties to terrorism, and that the mosque may be used in order to further a violent, oppressive agenda of Islamist domination, the recent crime wave has in actuality been directed from those opposed to the community center toward Muslims themselves.

This week, vandals have committed a string of hate crimes against a mosque in Madera, just about an hour away from my hometown. A brick was thrown at a window, and menacing signs were left that said "No temple for the god of terrorism" and "Wake up America, the enemy is here."

Fresno Bee

While the people behind these attacks ("The American Nationalist Brotherhood") are undeniably extremists, whom most of the anti-Cordoba crowd would condemn, this is not the only recent incident of anti-Muslim violence, nor is it the scariest.

Earlier this week, a college student slashed the throat and face of a New York cab driver after asking if he was a Muslim. The victim survived.

NYT

Back in May, a pipe bomb was set off at a Florida mosque during morning prayer, where about 60 people were in attendance. Luckily, no one was hurt.

aolnews

If only one of these crimes had occurred, it may have been fair to label it an "isolated incident." But the sheer number and frequency of these acts shut that idea down immediately. This is indicative of a larger trend of anti-Muslim sentiment. A sentiment that has been fostered, I would argue, by the right wing

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NIKI2

Saturday, September 4, 2010 4:43 PM

Higher than that, actually,but you already knew that:

Quote:
Who Is At Greatest Risk for Domestic Violence?

Women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured in acts of intimate violence than are men. (Bureau of Justice Statistics)

If you want to talk SEXUAL violence, even higher:

Quote:
Most perpetrators of sexual violence are men. Among acts of sexual violence committed against women since the age of 18, 100% of rapes, 92% of physical assaults, and 97% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men. Sexual violence against men is also mainly male violence: 70% of rapes, 86% of physical assaults, and 65% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off