Ariel - and Mal's forgiveness

POSTED BY: TauSetiPrime
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 02:19
VIEWED: 23757
PAGE 1 of 1

TAUSETIPRIME

Monday, July 19, 2004 12:31 PM

Ive watched this a couple times. I cant help wondering what was Mal's reason for letting Jayne back in the ship

He's on his crew.....but....

What was the redeaming action that told Mal he couldnt kill Jayne?

The dialog they have at the end of the episode doesnt seem like enough in comparison to other scenarios we've seen Mal in.

Is there something about Jayne I'm missing?

Mal:

I wasn't askin'.....I was tellin'.....

LIZ

Monday, July 19, 2004 12:42 PM

i think it's the remorse. the fact that he says "make something up. don't tell 'em what i done." Jayne feels guilty about turning on them. i think the way that Simon looked at him like he was a hero just made him re-think turning on him. or maybe hearing the screams of the people killed by the blue hand people made him think about what they must have done to River. For whatever reason Jayne didn't want to be thought of as a traitor and that remorse was enough for Mal to allow him to stay. (not enough to let him inside for a while though. )

BRITCHICK

Monday, July 19, 2004 12:57 PM

I agree with Liz. The fact that Jayne did not want Simon and River to know it was him, showed that he was ashamed and regretted what he had done.

Up until that point he had just been making excuses.

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REGINLEIF

Monday, July 19, 2004 1:30 PM

I'm not sure Mal intended to kill Jayne at all. I think it's more something of reminding him who's the boss, and to get back into line. Jayna is a useful crew mamber, after all. But he was beginning to become a bit dangerous. So Mal had to have this talk with him, sometimes. Jayne gave him the oppurtunity and reason, but when I saw this at first I thought: "Finally! This had to happen sometime!". So I don't think he let Jayne back after something, I think he meant to let him back on, just warn him and give him time to understand Mal will watch him.

You can't take the sky from me.

KATI

Monday, July 19, 2004 3:26 PM

For me the reason why Mal doesn’t spaced him is that Jayne already accepts that he has to die because he understands that he did wrong.
Jayne really accepts that, he takes his soon coming death as a fact, but he doesn’t want let the other know about his failure. He knows that Mal is going all the way.
It’s just like a last wish of a condemned man (Jayne who knows he’s sentenced to death) to ask his executioner for not telling the others about that.
And that makes Mal thinking it over… and change his mind. Jayne’s fear of death is less than his feelings of guilty for his deed.
That’s it – he knows he deserves it – and Mal knows that Jayne’s not lost for him and the crew because of this. *g* I think Jayne accepts that there are people who’ve got other philosophies than his own (1st money, 2nd money and 3rd money) and that the others aren’t wrong at all… but just are others and never will be his own.
But he understands that there’s something he just has to accept. He will never change his own philosophy, but he learned to accept and to respect the others. A bit at least. He may be illoyal and rude and not likeable but he always was kind of honestly in his own way (showed his feelings and thoughts openminded) – and if the others know of his betrayal he’s not more that “honest” man he was before. That’s why he doesn’t want them to know.

There’s another problem with Ariel, I think. Jayne made no secret of his feelings against the siblings – never, from the beginning on. And after this “He looks better in red”-scene he makes that clear again and speaks about the reward they could have again. Mal knows that.
Why does Mal send Jayne with them into the hospital, why doesn’t he leads them himself and let Zoe and Jayne take such medicaments? Or he could have send Zoe with River and Simon – and go himself together with Jayne. Why the hell he was so prepared to risk this thing?

That's my five cents...

Time for some thrilling heroics.

PURPLEBELLY

Monday, July 19, 2004 3:29 PM

It's because Ariel wasn't written by Whedon or Minear

LIZ

Monday, July 19, 2004 3:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KATI:
There’s another problem with Ariel, I think. Jayne made no secret of his feelings against the siblings – never, from the beginning on. And after this “He looks better in red”-scene he makes that clear again and speaks about the reward they could have again. Mal knows that.
Why does Mal send Jayne with them into the hospital, why doesn’t he leads them himself and let Zoe and Jayne take such medicaments? Or he could have send Zoe with River and Simon – and go himself together with Jayne. Why the hell he was so prepared to risk this thing?

Jayne had a hard enough time remembering the "we applied the cortical elctrodes..." line -- i wouldn't trust him to remember what to grab.
at least, that's why i wouldn't send him to get the meds.

KATI

Monday, July 19, 2004 4:19 PM

"Jayne had a hard enough time remembering the "we applied the cortical elctrodes..." line -- i wouldn't trust him to remember what to grab.
at least, that's why i wouldn't send him to get the meds."

Oh, LIZ, even Mal had written his arm full of names to remember the meds... *g*

Time for some thrilling heroics.

MER

Monday, July 19, 2004 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KATI:

Oh, LIZ, even Mal had written his arm full of names to remember the meds... *g*

But is Jayne the type to write them all down?

Jayne isn't intirely bad. He does things for the money only because he has a family to help support. He doesn't give a care to anybody (except maybe Kaylee) and I can't wait to find out the reason why.
Sometimes Jayne acts too Spikey...I swear O_O;;

PINGJING

Monday, July 19, 2004 6:32 PM

Kati wrote:
For me the reason why Mal doesn’t spaced him is that Jayne already accepts that he has to die because he understands that he did wrong.
Jayne really accepts that, he takes his soon coming death as a fact, but he doesn’t want let the other know about his failure. He knows that Mal is going all the way.
It’s just like a last wish of a condemned man (Jayne who knows he’s sentenced to death) to ask his executioner for not telling the others about that.
________________________________________________

That's exactly how I understood that scene. Jayne accepts Mal's decision and actually feels shame for what he did, and that's why Mal closes the door.
What I find interesting is that Mal took the intercom thingamajigger with him up the stairs. He wanted to hear what Jayne had to say - in other words, he hadn't given up on him yet. I don't think Mal was entirely bluffing - he was certainly mad enough to kill Jayne - but at the same time I don't think he was really planning to. Or maybe he didn't know whether he was going to go through with it. He just left it up to Jayne.

STATIC

Monday, July 19, 2004 7:46 PM

Going back to the whole 'remorse/regret' thing. . .re-watch the episode. Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. During the scene where Simon is explaining to Jayne what's been done to River, you begin to see even that early the 'oh shit. . .what have I done?' look on Jayne's face.

I think at this point, the only reason he goes through with it is because he figures, "in for a penny, in for a pound."

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

Monday, July 19, 2004 8:04 PM

Thats what I thought too: It was the 'don't tell em what I done' line that gave Mal enough reason to not kill Jayne. And I do believe has really wanted a reason to not kill him.
I don't know why Jayne went with the Doc and River as opposed to anyone else. Guess it was just habit on Mal's part. Zoe always has his back.
IMO, this episode is another example of how much smarter Mal is then he likes to admit. :D He always seems to know what others are thinking. Except Inara. ;)

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

LIZ

Monday, July 19, 2004 9:25 PM

I remembered that Mal had written them down. i also remember Mal explaining to Simon " If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." Perhaps that's only if your Simon.

So, yeah, some of it doesn't fit as well but, here's my rationalization: Jayne isn't book smart enough to grab the right stuff fast enough and probably wouldn't deal well if he was questioned. (If faced with that doctor's questioning, i think Jayne would have escalated the argument to a shouting match, thus bringing attention to them... and then just punched the doctor.) As far as the wrench to the back of the head vs. the facing each other armed, perhaps Jayne gave up that right when he betrayed a memeber of the crew. Of course, Simon threatened to not save Kaylee's life, so maybe that logic doesn't work either.
i give up. i believe that Mal had good reason to leave Jayne w/Simon and River, and that he was ready to kill Jayne for the betrayal. My reasoning: 'cuz.

TAUSETIPRIME

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:01 AM

This is a good point.

I like the way you think.........:)

I wasn't askin'.....I was tellin'.....

TALONPEST

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:06 AM

The one thing that's always bothered me about the line "If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" is that in the very next episode Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound. So yeah, I think it only applies to Simon.

DRALIONSOLEIL

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:21 AM

i like to think the "if i ever kill you..." line was given to simon becuase he feels simon deserves the honor of defending himself. cause of his ideals... simon wanted to be river's big damn hero and save her from the bad place no matter the cost. where as crow's just a thug, and uhm
::thinks about it:: well yeah i guess it's just a plain old double standard.
:p

PURPLEBELLY

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talonpest:
Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound.

IIRC Whedon was concerned the character of Crow (spelling taken from shooting script) would be attractive to the Network, which had forced the rapid writing of The Train Job 'pilot'. Crow's disappearance is therefore a symbolic rejection of Network influence. We now know the sensitivity of the Network to such statements.

I took the road less travelled ...

LOFWYRR

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:35 AM

Back to the whole 'why let Jayne got with River and Simon, instead of Mal and Zoe" bit, combined with Mal having the list written on his arm...in 'The Message", when Jayne get the letter from home, I saw that Jayne, while intelligent and ruthless, can't read so well. So it's not really that big of a suprise that the merc couldn't be expected to decipher names of medicines he'd never seen before.

"If I'd have wanted schooling, I'd have gone to school"

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:22 AM

I've always liked what Hank Parnell had to say about Mal in general and this scene in particular. The rest of Hank's thesis on why Firefly was canceled is less convincing to me. He may very well be right however it's not something that can ever be verified. But he makes some good points and I think it's time the article got dusted off and re-read. I'll just excerpt the relevant parts and link to the whole article.

Quote:
from "Swatting the Firefly" by Hank Parnell originally published in The Texas Mercury
But most of all, living "beyond the law" as Reynolds and his crew had to, the moral universe of Firefly depended not on the "rule of law," but on its much-maligned and deliberately-misunderstood alternative, the rule of honor. And Firefly made the case, through Reynolds, as persuasively as it has ever been made in American fiction, print, TV, film or otherwise, in my opinion, for the ultimate superiority of the rule of honor over the rule of law—at least for uncommon people, if not the run-of-the-mill herds of swine, sheep, slaves and robots held to be so dear today.

For you see, the rule of honor demands what law must defer: individual responsibility, personal culpability, what is fair and what is just, of every man (and woman) who lives by it. Nowhere is this made more clear than at the climax of the episode "Ariel," in which Reynolds is about to space Jayne for betraying River and her doctor brother to the Feds. Jayne, after some hemming and hawing, admits his guilt, and his reasons for the betrayal: "The money was too good. I got stupid." This makes little impression on Reynolds, who turns and walks away: he knows Jayne is guilty, and why. What turns him back around and stops him is when Jayne asks what Reynolds plans to tell the others, and says, rather pathetically:

"Make something up. Don't tell 'em what I did."

I, for one, could see the wheels turning in Mal Reynolds' head: He's ashamed. There may be something of a man in him after all.

It is then, of course, that Reynolds closes the outer hatch before Serenity leaves the atmosphere, and spares Jayne's life.

Some of you may think this is only in my imagination; and to be sure, I do not imagine that Joss Whedon has sat down and thought about the rule of honor as I have, or would even support or espouse it, as I do, other than as a fictional device for the development of one of his characters. And yet there it is; consciously or not, it is in there, and it underlies every single thing that Reynolds does. Honor is his roadmap in life, his way of finding his way through the wilderness. It says to him at every turn: This thing I can do and live with myself; this thing I can't. It is in the end what makes him a "good" man, in the conventional sense, and an American, and, ultimately, a Southerner.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=39

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:34 AM

Couple thoughts: the "I won't kill you..." line makes perfect sense to me in the context of Krowl. It'd be just silly if Mal gave Simon all the corrolaries and exceptions to his basic rule: "Oh, but if you've tried to kill me and members of my crew, and I have you at my mercy and you insist on threatening to hound me till the day I die, then, yeah, I might kill you even if you aren't at that moment armed."

And also, Mal puts his faith in Jayne. He treats him as a member of his crew, which means he trusts him. This is a choice Mal makes. Jayne acknowledged that "doc had a good plan." Mal doesn't have the benefit of our omniscient awareness of Jayne and his motives. And Mal could make little use of Jayne if he based his decisions on Jayne's essencial untrustworthiness.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

EVILTOBZ

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talonpest:
The one thing that's always bothered me about the line "If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" is that in the very next episode Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound. So yeah, I think it only applies to Simon.

i'd take that line a little less literally than that myself. i see it more as an implication that for mal to choose to kill someone they would have had to oppose him pretty strongly and would know it was coming. jayne didn't know that mal had figured out what had happened, but he knew that mal wouldn't take it good, so he knows its coming enough, same with kicking yon crow bloke through the engine.

---------------------------------------------
eviltobz - that's lowercase gorram it!

KATI

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:15 AM

LIZ wrote “i give up. i believe that Mal had good reason to leave Jayne w/Simon and River, and that he was ready to kill Jayne for the betrayal. My reasoning: 'cuz. “

@LIZ – Never give up, never surrender (I love that quote!*g*) – your last reason is one of the greatest ever. :-) It’s just my humble opinion, I just thought that it would have been much more “smooth” (for Mal, not for us…) if Mal had decided to do this job in another way. Ariel is one of my favourite eps, and I’m sure it wasn’t if it had taken another path, really. But playing with all these “coulda-shoulda-wouldas” is such a wonderful wasting of lifetime. *g*

@MER: You said: “Jayne isn't intirely bad. He does things for the money only because he has a family to help support. He doesn't give a care to anybody (except maybe Kaylee) and I can't wait to find out the reason why.
Sometimes Jayne acts too Spikey...I swear O_O;;”

Oh, I never would say that I don’t like Jayne – he’s my beloved favourite funny dumbass. :-) I just try to *not* see him through my fangirlish pink glasses. I always think of this scene in Serenity when he so cares about Kaylee. And you’re right. He often reminds me of Spikey (without that “love’s bitch” thing). And I was so shocked as I watched Ariel for the first time, this moment as he called this Fed and said his “…then I’ll have your fugitives.” Oh my, that was more than a shock, it was a reason for a heartattack! (and this wrench-moment in the cargo bay *g*)

@STATIC: You wrote “Going back to the whole 'remorse/regret' thing. . .re-watch the episode. Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. During the scene where Simon is explaining to Jayne what's been done to River, you begin to see even that early the 'oh shit. . .what have I done?' look on Jayne's face.”

OH YES! AB is such an underrated actor, and this scene where Simon is so excited about Jayne’s “saving their lives” and Mal’s “big pay day” is amazing, just for looking at AB’s face. It’s really a mix of “what have I done?” and his release like “uhhh… they didn’t find out”. That’s really fantastic!

@Soupcatcher: Very well said… just without that patriotic thingy, for my opinion, but I think it’s a special part of the Americans, and ‘cuz. ;) Thanks for sharing.

Time for some thrilling heroics.

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:51 AM

It reminds me of Shan Yu's Volcano theory;

Didn't Mal "Hold Jane over the Volcano" so to speak...And by Jayne saying "don't tell 'em what I did" His remorse shown while being "held over the Volcano" let Mal know about Jayne's true self.

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:53 PM

I agree w/ Liz. I think that the remorse Jayne felt & his asking Mal to "make something up" & "don't tell them what I done" is what convinced Mal to let Jayne stay on.

I think it will be a long time before Mal forgives Jayne for the betrayal or truly trusts him again.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

KIQUOA

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:24 PM

Mal is contridicting himself all the time.
"We're not theives... well, we are theives..."

Mal 'I don't run away from a fight.'
Inara "Yes you do, you run away all the time!"

I see it as the struggle between who Mal wants to be (the honerable hero who gives Jayne the shot at redemption or who would give Simon the chance to defend himself) and the man who reality forces him to be (a thief and the man who shows the better part of valor through discreation)

His scene with Jayne puts these two sides of Mal against each other. On the one hand he must defend his crew, on the other, Jayne IS part of his crew and deserves a second chance. I agree though that Jayne only gets his second chance when he shows remorse like others had pointed out.

RANGER

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:49 PM

Ok, here is my take. A lot of my ideas have already been said by others here, but I'll just through in a few thoughts of my own.

Mal is a guy that has seen enough death and destruction to value life to a very high degree. He is willing to kill Jayne for his actions, but he doesn't want to. The whole set up, puting the com set in the airlock with Jayne is Mal's hoping aginst hope that he won't have to actually do the deed.

This is a major event in Jayne's life as well (to put it mildly). The first time he's ever been over the volcano so to speak (great analogy by the way, never hit me until I read it here). Jayne is a big confident guy. He's faced death lots of times, but has always made it, and probably never really thought he could loose. Now, for probably the first time, he has to face it as a reality and he suddenly has to choose what matters most. His choice of his honor over everything else (don't tell 'em what I did) is probably as surprising to him as it is to Mal.

Mal only kills when he believes he has no other option. Jayne gave him enough to pull back.

As to the 'awake, facing me, and armed' comment, I think it just means he gives people a fighting chance. Crow had a fighting chance, he could have taken Mals deal and walked free, he chose not to.

Just my thoughts...

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

SHINYSEVEN

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:13 AM

Whereas I think it's just another one of Mal's really mean practical jokes--it's cranking up a notch what he did to Simon in Serenity.

And, like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Shindig, if Mal is angry at someone who is not posing an immediate threat to his life, he's going to be right in there with a second-degree assault, but he isn't going to kill that person.

I think according to Mal's Sentencing Guidelines, Jayne (whose dependability has ALWAYS been an issue) deserved to be knocked cold with a wrench and get really scared, but it was fair and proportionate to leave it at that.

Besides, if he spaced Jayne, he'd have to get another "public relations" executive who would raise the same risks.

DARKJESTER

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:55 AM

Here's another thought on the matter - Mal didn't really see Simon as a threat. He could simply tell that Simon wouldn't ever blindside him. And he was re-assuring Simon that he (Mal) would never... well... kill him in his sleep.
Crow, on the other hand, was making it very clear that he would hunt Mal down and kill him however was NOT quickest and least painful. I think Mal will give you respect as a courtesy, until you prove to him that you don't deserve it.
And I believe that in "Ariel", when Mal let Jayne live, it was because Mal saw Jayne showing remorse. Yes, perhaps Mal was "holding him over a volcano", and he saw more (and better) than he expected.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

FEMALEJAYNE

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:28 AM

I'm going to say it was that Jayne planned on selling them out, changed his mind and then vocalized that he was sorry.

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

MINDSEYE

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:06 AM

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT, "hit the nail on the head" so to speak.

Shan Yu : "Live with a man forty
years. Share his house, his meals,
speak on every subject. Then tie
him up and hold him over the volcano's
edge, and on that day, you will
finally meet the man."

Mal held jayne over the volcano's edge and met the real Jayne that was hidden under his "Thug" exterior.

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

STEVETHEPIRATE

Friday, July 23, 2004 9:25 PM

Here's my two cents.

Mal tells Simon the "If I ever kill you..." line because he now trusts Simon, understands the motive behind any and all of his actions and, above all, knows Simon is, at his core, a good person.

Mal kills the unarmed Crow because Crow poses a significant threat to the crew of Serenity and shows no potential for thinking in any other fashion. In other words, he has no redeeming qualities and could serve no positive purpose for Mal and his crew.

Mal suckerpunches Jayne and puts him in harms way while unconcious because Jayne poses a significant threat to anyone within arm's reach, has betrayed the crew and, at his core, is not entirely trustworthy.

It's not a double-standard, it's common sense.

Of course, two cents can't buy much.

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Friday, July 23, 2004 10:03 PM

My take?

Ariel is the start of Jayne's redemption story - I've posted on other threads that Jayne would betray Mal and Co (had the series continued) at some point in the future, and IMO would have gone to the "dark side" and back.

Adam could have carried that journey off - and it would have been stunning to watch.

Jayne telling Mal to "make something up" is the cogs whirring. Two eps ago he saw how an "evil" act of his was deified by Canton, and that stayed with him. He could take that Mal would space him, but not that he died a villan.

"I threw up on your bed"

RANGER

Friday, July 23, 2004 11:04 PM

Ok, now for something completely different. I've been thinking that Mal never really forgives Jayne. What he does is lay out a deal for him, and then waits to see if he accepts (kind of like the Crow situation). The question for Mal isn't does he trust Jayne enough to keep him on the crew, but does Jayne respect Mal's decisions. Mal's first priority is protecting his crew, and he's willing to go down with the ship to do it if he has to. Mal made Simon crew, and Jayne has never recognized that. Jayne tries to explain his decision as selling out Simon and River, not betraying Mal. Mal has to remind Jayne that by selling out Simon, he is selling out Mal and as Mal says, "since you can't seem to wrap your brain around that, you've got no place here" (or words to that effect). So, if Jayne has no place on the boat, he can't be allowed to live because he is a threat to the crews' survival (he could, for example, tell the Feds about who killed Dobson and where it happened just for starters).

So, the question isn't why does Mal forgive Jayne, but why does he accept that Jayne has wrapped his brain around the issue of who's in charge. I think it may be that Jayne's request is a recognition of Mal's authority over his life and how he will be remembered.

Just my thoughts...

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

RANGER

Saturday, July 24, 2004 2:38 PM

Ok, a little clarification on my previous post. So, what is it about that final interaction between Jayne and Mal that changes Mal's mind? I think it comes down to priorities.

Mal's problem with Jayne's actions (besides the fact that they were just dumb) seems to be that they are a rejection of Mal's authority as captain. Mal made Simon Crew and Jayne rejected that decision. Being crew means you look after each other and watch each others' backs. For the captain it means doing what ever it takes to protect them.

What Jayne does at the end of the scene is accept Mal's authority as captain (by accepting Mal's judgement of him) and he puts the crew first in his mind. Jayne's last request could have been about his family back home or what to do with all his guns and knives, but when it comes down to it, it's the crew (including Simon and River) and his relationship to them, even after he is gone, that matters most. By putting the crew first Jayne shows Mal he can be trusted (at least as far as he ever could be trusted before).

So, in the end, no forgiveness, just a re-affermation of the deal. 'You live by my law... you have a place on my crew.'

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

THEREALME

Saturday, July 24, 2004 3:58 PM

Yes. I never thought through all the details like that, but that all sounds right.

The Real Me

THEREALME

Saturday, July 24, 2004 3:58 PM

But I did think it odd that Wash's control panel didn't show a flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely...

The Real Me

SHINYSEVEN

Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:49 PM

It's possible that Jayne, like Spike, was supposed to have only a few episodes, but thanks to a charismatic performer was too much damn fun to watch to get rid of--thus opening up the option of character redemption.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

PURPLEBELLY

Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
... flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely

Probably the same faulty sub-system that doesn't alert the use of an air-lock in Objects in Space.
Try telling that to a cop when the reversing klaxon on your truck is bust

NEDWARD

Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
But I did think it odd that Wash's control panel didn't show a flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely...

I thought the only thing Wash's control panel shows is whether or not the ship's landlocked.

SIKKUKUT

Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:39 PM

I've always found it to be a fascinating question whether Mal actually planned to kill Jayne or not. Myself, I'm still undecided, but perhaps over the course of this post I will develop an opinion. The problem for us as audience, of course, is that either Mal was planning on spacing Jayne, or he was doing his damnedest to convince Jayne of that fact... and either way, it looks the same to us.

I've actually had a bit of trouble consistently outlining Mal's policy on when you leave an enemy alive. Let's think it through. Patience lives, Dobson dies, Crow dies, Wing lives, Saffron lives, Jayne lives, Niska lives (but I don't think that was by Mal's choice), Tracy dies, Saffron lives again, Rance Burgess dies but not by Mal's hand, and Early... well, probably dies. I'm not seeing the pattern here. And note that other than Dobson, I'm not really counting people who die in battle because that A) is a given and B) would take too long.

Okay, we can divide these basically into categories: He killed Tracy, Dobson, and (probably) Early because it was the most efficient way of dealing with the threat they posed. Burgess also falls into that category-- although he didn't pose an immediate threat, it was Mal's opinion that he would never leave those women alone. Patience, Crow, Wing, and Saffron (both times) all fall under the category of mercy to a defeated enemy. Again, Crow demonstrates the desire to threaten them again and an unwillingness to abide by their plans. And the other three... Mal has them defeated, he has what he wants from them, and they pose no further threat. They don't show remorse, but they don't pose a threat. Niska's a sort of special case, because of the torture and the fact that Mal didn't get to finish things with him. Note that I'm guessing there are also certain unpardonable crimes (for instance, killing civilians, as in the unproduced ep Dead or Alive) for which Mal wouldn't let a person live unless he had to.

And then there's Jayne. Which category does he fit into? I'd say that Mal is still assessing that fact, and that's why he's got him in the airlock. But he can't assess that fact unless he talks to Jayne, which is why he gives him the comm. It's my best guess that this was Mal's expected outcome... but by no means certain. Mal was pretty sure he could deal with Jayne... but if Jayne had resolutely stayed in the "still a threat" category by showing no remorse... then, I firmly believe, Mal would have let him die.

Oops, guess I do have an opinion.

Meanwhile, I've got some musings on Jayne's self-image, but this post has gone long enough and that probably belongs in another thread anyway.

____________________________
"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother

DEWSHINE

Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:52 PM

I know this doesn't belong here, but didn't Crow die?

Anyway...Jayne I don't think has been forgiven, Mal's still watching him closely, but Jayne is more useful alive and as long as Mal keeps up on what he's up to at least Jayne is predictable. Another strong arm might not be, so Mal deals with Jayne.

THEREALME

Sunday, July 25, 2004 4:47 AM

Crow died, but I think that the point was that Mal was WILLING to make a deal with Crow. Crow did the big stupid, and ended up lubricating engine parts.

The Real Me

DEWSHINE

Sunday, July 25, 2004 4:50 AM

ah, but how does this show mercy to a defeated enemy...
I know, I'm dense here. All the others in the catagory lived...

THEREALME

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:02 AM

Well, this isn't really my thread, but I think I understand what the original poster was getting at.

Mal was willing to deal with Crow, to show mercy to a defeated opponent. Honorable thing to do.

Just like Mal did with Jayne.

But Crow steadfastly refused to be reasonable, moreover he assured Mal that there would be NO WAY that Crow could be anything but a deadly foe out for Mal's blood. Mal needs none of that. If there is no hope for reconciliation, no dealing, kill him.

Jayne showed remorse, sort of apologized, and Mal let him live.

The Real Me

DEWSHINE

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:05 AM

"Crow steadfastly refused to be reasonable, moreover he assured Mal that there would be NO WAY that Crow could be anything but a deadly foe out for Mal's blood."

This is exactly why I think Crow belonged in the first group, LOL.....

THEREALME

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:12 AM

Oh.

Well, I would say that until that point, Mal was ready to let him slide off in the survivors group. Hey, I'm getting more than a bit confused, and this isn't even my thread. In one or two more posts, you'll have me convinced of just about anything...

Are you a Pini fan?

The Real Me

DEWSHINE

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:13 AM

Yes, Elfquest is the best stuff out there, comic wise... LOL

THEREALME

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:20 AM

I got them all.

The Real Me

DEWSHINE

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:23 AM

we're off topic, but did you like the tribute stuff that was done a few years back? The people who draw Speed Racer did one, and boy was it odd looking...

THEREALME

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:31 AM

* The Real Me scratches his head, looks puzzled, and shrugs. *

Huh?

The Real Me

DEWSHINE

Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:34 AM

LOL...
methinks you have the first series then...
there is a second series of elfguest that the Pini started but had guest help on...I bought that too...

PURPLEBELLY

Sunday, July 25, 2004 6:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dewshine:
I know this doesn't belong here, but didn't Crow die?

I haven't got the reference, but my understanding of Crow's demise is that it is Whedon's note to myself not to write an episode over a weekend ever again.
This is the last time. The last time ...

DEWSHINE

Monday, July 26, 2004 9:50 PM

Aside from Crow... I think Mal and Jayne have an interesting dynamic. Jayne must fear Mal on a certain level. And Mal is somewhat of a broken man. Mal lost his faith in God and put his faith in Serenity and her crew...His crew, his ship. Mal is able to do very very dark things to protect that faith...its all he has left. It will take more than Jayne saying "sorry, kill me but don't tell the others why" for Mal to forgive what he has done. So Jayne is someone that Mal watches...and perhaps expects to betray him, after all, that's how Jayne became a member of Mal's crew. Mal has not forgiven Jayne, but shown him mercy as long as Jayne behaves himself.

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:18 AM

Soupcatcher's reprint of the article analyzing the show based on the "code of honor" vice the "code of law" really resonated with me... perhaps because I was raised and lived my whole life in the South. It's not an abstract thing to me. In the smaller towns here in Texas (and elsewhere in the South), the code of honor is still very real, and hard as chrome steel. Yet that analysis went almost unremarked in all the following posts. Most of the posts seem to be trying to decode some obscure algorithm of "utility"... he spared so-and-so because Mal thought he might be an asset later. Or deception... Mal thought he could fool Jayne into repentance. This is needlessly complex.

I think that "code of honor" analysis explains much of why Mal responds the way he does. Why did he tell Simon he would kill him honorably? Because Mal determined that at his core, Simon is an honorable man who has sacrificed his own life to do right by innocent family. Yes, Simon's actions put Mal's crew at risk... but that risk could not be avoided by Simon if he was to follow his honor, because it was the crew's action that was going to force a dishonorable result upon River. Why did Mal kill Crow so ruthlessly? Because Crow took great glee in revealing to Mal that he was a man without honor... Crow never realized he was signing his own death warrant. Why does Mal, just barely, spare Jayne? Because by his contrition, Jayne shows that MAYBE he has what it takes to become an honorable man.

I'm not saying that honor is the sole criteria that Mal uses to determine the outcome of an encounter. For example, on the battlefield, you kill not because your opponent is dishonorable. You kill because your opponent will kill you if you don't kill him first. If your opponent surrenders, THEN the code of honor comes into to play: the honorable man spares the surrendered enemy. I think Mal see's Jubal's invasion of the ship as an attack by an enemy combatant. Jubal Early's honor (or lack of) is never the question (that's why its never explored). He is a combatant on a battlefield and he puts Mal's people at risk. The rules of the battlefield say that Mal kills Jubal, Jubal kills Mal, or one of them surrenders. Jubal may not have seen it that way... that was his mistake.

Also, real people are sometimes motivated by more than one thing. Threatening Mal's crew is a big influence on the "kill him" side of the equation. Doing so for a valid reason might buy you a few moments to make your case before Mal kills you.

As for the others, this post is already too long to extend with further analysis. Does anyone else want to see if the code of honor applies to the other characters that he kills or spares?

VEARSTWIN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:41 AM

I just think that Mal didn't space Jayne because Mal has a heart and even though Jayne betrayed his crew and himself. He couldn't live with himself killing Jayne.

"Jayne is a girl's name"-River

VEARSTWIN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:52 AM

I was thinking the same thing when I was watching it last night.

'Jayne is a girl's name'-River

THEREALME

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 4:40 AM

Bravo, Danfan!

* The Real Me claps for perhaps a bit too long *

You put in a nice little bundle something that I thought I had sensed, but could never articulate.

Then again, I guess I count as a Yankee boy. But my mom was from Tennessee!

I think you are correct. I think that Mal was quite ready to space Jayne. I think he did offer Jayne a chance with the radio, but I don't believe that it was a show at all on Mal's part.

Later, in "Objects in Space" (ignoring the debates on episode order), when Jayne does not want to take things in a "Jayne's fault" direction, Mal is almost savage with his reply, which almost sent Jayne scampering. No, I don't think Mal has compeletely forgiven Jayne yet.

The Real Me

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:29 AM

Hey Danfan, glad to hear that I wasn't the only one that article resonated with! I was a bit surprised that no one really commented when I re-posted Hank Parnell's article and that it kind of slipped through the cracks. In my mind he hit the bulls-eye in his characterization of Mal. After reading his article it was like a light came on for me.

I agree with you that many responses in this thread seem to be over-analyzing Mal's actions (positing that he was playing a psychological game with Jayne in the airlock scene). It reminds me of an earlier thread where some people had a problem with Kaylee's actions during the Out of Gas flashback and saw her fling with Bester as inconsistent with her innocent character.

The context of the future as envisioned in Firefly is different from the context of today. You have to make up your own rules as you go along and Mal, as a man of honor, has a set of abiding principles that he does not deviate from.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:28 PM

TheRealMe,

Mom's from Tennessee? You're not a Yankee. You are family on walkabout!

;-)

Whenever you're ready, you're welcome back home.

"The sun is riz, the sun is set...
And here I is in Texas yet."

LIZ

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:54 PM

Didn't Patience show herself to be dishonorable? She set up a sniper (or 2?) and insulted Mal repeatedly. Why was she spared?

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:54 PM

Soupcatcher

I followed the link you posted and read all of Parnell's article. I'm not ready to accept his thesis that the mishandling and ultimate cancellation of Firefly was a deliberate execution-style killing perpetrated by the suits at Fox to repudiate the underlying theme of Firefly (personal authority, personal accountability, code of honor). That seems a bit extreme.

However, I am perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that Fox mishandled Firefly because they disliked it. And they disliked it for reasons that even they weren't real clear on... the show "just didn't feel right." And the reason that it didn't feel right to them was that those pesky themes didn't fit into their unconcious (and unquestioned) belief structure.

In other words, I think that Parnell MIGHT be right about the root cause of Firefly's demise, but wrong about Fox executives' concious awareness of their motivations. This would be consistent with other programming choices made by Fox that seems to lack any connection to higher brain function...

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 2:05 PM

Liz,

[Later edit... In this response, I misread your original question and thought you meant Sapphron. I think I offer my opinion on your real question in the next post. But I think the further definition of Mal's "code" in this post is still pertinent...]

In rereading my original post, I feel that I might have confusingly blended two different things. Just for the sake of clarity, bear with me... In my opinion, Mal doesn't decide to kill/not kill based on the honor of the person he faces. He decides HOW he will deal with that person based upon their honor and his own code. It is their actions that decide (for him) whether he must kill or can spare the individual.

Honor - Because of Simon's honor, if he has to kill him, he will do so honorably. Because of Crow's lack of honor, if he has to kill him, he will feed him to the engine.

Options - Simon gave Mal another option. Crow did not.

Two separate dimensions to the decision tree.

To continue this idea, I think given his personal code, killing is a last resort with Mal. If he can, he solves problems another way. If he must kill, then how he does it is driven by his code of honor and that of his opponent.

So, if I'm right, why did Mal allow Sapphron to live? She clearly had no honor. In the first encounter, she behaved dishonorably AND she put the crew in dire peril. If Mal had had the opportunity to deal with her at the moment of peril, she would likely not have survived. But she escaped before that confrontation could come to pass. When he met up with her later in the brothel, there was no dire peril to be solved by her death, thus no reason to kill her. He did repay her at that time by busting her in the chops... in so doing, he treated her as if she were without honor, but it was no longer necessary or justified at that moment to exercise the last resort.

In the second encounter, she still was not honorable and Mal knew that. But Mal had choices (he CREATED choices!) other than killing her in that case. He could deceive her, do right by his crew, and let her live to pay for her own lack of honor. If she had put him in a position where the last resort was the only one left, he would have killed her. And since she had no honor, he would have treated her as if she had none (meaning she would have been engine lube or vacuum fodder).

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 4:17 PM

Liz,

In your question, you said Patience. My brain read Sapphron. I think my post explains (at least to me) why Mal reacted as he did to Sapphron at various times. And I think it explains the general principal that can be applied to the situation with Patience. But it doesn't directly address your question. My apologies.

Let's see... Patience. Wasn't she the governer of one of the outer planets that tried to ambush Mal and Zoe when they were working a deal?

If I have the setup right, then let's see...

1) Yep, Patience was dishonorable, and Mal knows it. That isn't a death sentence. It just means that Mal deals with her in light of that knowledge. He takes out her snipers and sets up his own (acceptable behavior by his code since she has proven herself dishonorable).

2) It turns into a shootin' match. If she gets shot and killed during the shootout, so be it. She brought it on by her own actions. Mal is dealing with very limited options in the middle of the shootout... it's shoot or get shot.

3) Once the shootin' was done and Patience was still alive but no longer able to bring the fight to him, Mal's options opened back up. He could be merciful if it didn't put him or his crew at risk. No more need to take the "last resort." So he closes the deal and moves on. Notice that even though she is helpless, he takes no more than he bargained for... as his honor requires of him.

Does this make more sense than my previous ramble?

PURPLEBELLY

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 4:29 PM

Zoe would be upset if anyone else greased Jayne, she's been savouring it so long.

LIZ

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:26 PM

yes, thank you DanFan. that "last resort" bit is what brought the whole theory together. thanks

THEREALME

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:43 AM

The Real Me, with all the authority at his disposal (which is to say NONE) hereby bestows upon Danfan the title "Arbiter of Honor".

The Real Me

SUPERFLY

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:22 AM

I hate to admit it, but it’s pretty late and I just couldn’t read through all the posts, so I might besaying something someone’s already said. For me, the whole incident with Jayne was a wonderful and productive plan on Mal’s part. We already know from the pilot that there’s an understanding between Mal and Jayne.

Mal: Why didn’t you turn on me?
Jayne: Money wasn’t good enough.
Mal: What happens when it is good enough?
Jayne: Well... that’ll be an interesting day.
Mal: I imagine it will be, at that.

(Taken from memory)

Mal needs Jayne. He needs him on the ship, and he needs him on the crew. Look at it. The crew has the perfect combination of people and skills. They have everyone they need to keep thingsgoing, including a thug like Jayne. Who else could have done the job with the Alliance mole inep. 1? Who could have taken out the snipers and killed TwoFry in part 2 of the same ep? Who could have shot out the breaker in one shot in OMR? Who could have... well.. You get the idea. Someone has to do the dirty work, and that falls to Jayne. He’s proven himself invaluable over and over (well, except for that embarrassing OIS ep.)

Mal knows he can’t trust Jayne (though Jayne is turning, ever so slowly). What they needed between them was a better understanding. So, I think Mal told him with that encounter: “You ever turn on me, I will know. You turn on me, you’ll get caught, and I’m gonna kill you.” Now, that’s the understanding they have between them.

I think it was just icing on the cake that Jayne felt shame. Kinda gives me just a little bit of hope for the big lug.

SOUPCATCHER

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:33 AM

Danfan,

You've pretty much outlined the problems I have with that part of Hank's article (his reasoning on why Firefly was canceled). I just don't think the Fox executives consciously thought things through to that level of detail. Subconsciously, who knows. So, while I think his theory is interesting, I don't think it's something that could ever be verified.

I just have a hard time giving the executives who canceled our beloved show any credit for analysis.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, August 2, 2004 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liz:
i think it's the remorse. the fact that he says "make something up. don't tell 'em what i done." Jayne feels guilty about turning on them. i think the way that Simon looked at him like he was a hero just made him re-think turning on him. or maybe hearing the screams of the people killed by the blue hand people made him think about what they must have done to River. For whatever reason Jayne didn't want to be thought of as a traitor and that remorse was enough for Mal to allow him to stay. (not enough to let him inside for a while though. )

Exactly for maybe the first time ever Jayne in his actions shows that he is something else other than a self centered, treacherous, money loving merc.

From the first time that Mal and Zoe saw Jayne they knew he was piece o work

Select to view spoiler:

...jayne and his previous filth friends holding firelfy at gun point but Mal is still in control and jayne gets persuaded to shoot his old friends for some loot

From day one Mal knows that Jayne can't be trusted, he's a mercenary for cripes sake but jobs are hard to come by in space and they need all the extra hands they can get. I think Mal was ready to kill Jayne many a time Mal might think he's silly, has a foul tongue, and is ready to betray those close to him for the right price, you'll notice at certain times Mal is ready to stare down Jayne or draw his gun if push comes to shove. The show is well scripted the reality is there is nothing worse than having a traitor willing to sell out for a couple of bucks..going back to the real world anyone recall that guy who got caught by the FBI and former KGB for shipping terror equipments explosives, detonators into the US for the right price ? The fact is it doesn't matter what group, nation or organisation you are if you have a turncoat/traitor on the inside it can cause real trouble and I think Whedon's Firefly did a great job of describing this in Ariel.

The character Jayne is well played, he has a funny way about him and seems almost primitive but he does have some good people around him. Jayne often comes across as a dumb buffon only in it for the cash, but he is a highly skilled Merc and handy in a fight so I guess this must be why Captain Mal allows him to stay. However Mal is no spanky clean hero like Superman or some Startrek Captain..if the going gets tuff and the bullets start coming Mal will fire at whatever gets in his way, in the pilot episode he drops the alliance cop in the blink of an eye, and the horse that gets in his way gets a bullet also. If push came to shove Mal would put a bullet in Jayne, the reason why Mal doesn't kill Jayne in the end of Ariel is because he finally stars to show remorse and Jayne starts to care about what the crew think of him.