'...I'm Batman.'
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 21:48
VIEWED: 14275
PAGE 1 of 2
Okay, now I just watched Batman (Keaton), and I watched Batman Begins the other week. Man, I am SO split on which I like better...
Batman has:
A peerless Joker performance, IMO.
A cool Batmobile.
A hot love interest.
Great fight scenes.
A visually interesting & goth Gotham, and fascinating production design in general.
Funny jokes.
An excellent Elfman score.
A twisted mentality.
Drawbacks:
Some cheesy FX, rushed & thin storyline (writer's strike).
Batman Begins has:
Lush photography.
An excellent Zimmer score.
A cool Batmobile chase.
Insane fight scenes.
A super-serious tone.
Gary Oldman.
Morgan Freeman.
Michael Caine.
Drawbacks:
CGI sometimes makes me sleepy, Bale's Wayne performance can be rather unsympathetic compared to Keaton's (or Clooney's).
Seriously, I like both these movies so much, if I had to choose only ONE, I'd be lost.
Got Opinion? 
The flyingmouse Chrisisall
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Christian Bale is the only actor so far who could pull of the characters of both Batman and Bruce Wayne. Keaton was a pretty good Batman, but not a great Bruce Wayne.
The batmobile tank kicked ass. The new suit kicked ass. The origin of all his equipment in general kicked ass.
Ninjas.
There really isn't much comparison. Batman Begins is my favorite all-time Batman movie. Quite possibly my favorite comic hero movie ever.
Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.
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I enjoyed the first Batman movie, but I love the new ones with Christian Bale. He makes such a perfect Batman, and I can't wait for the next movie to come out.
--------
~Captain of the Asheville Browncoats~
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I'm a Nolanverse fan. Keaton's Batman was just a chunk of 90s-era Grimdark put on screen (seriously, Batman using machine guns? Killing people? It was practically a Frank Miller story, without the whores). I'll grant that the Nolanverse isn't perfect, but it's better than what we've had, and Bale's performance makes sense as a Batman at the very beginning of his career, before he's become the omni-competent master crimefighter everyone is already familiar with.
The Nolanverse is the first version of Batman that really took the concept seriously and not as a cartoon stereotype.
Rather than just throwing the concept out there, Nolan used the domino principle to justify Batman. You can almost imagine Nolan's Batman existing in the real world, where none of the previous versions could function outside of their particular little charicatures of what the director(s) thought a comic book should have been.
I tend to feel that one of the things that defines a good superhero is how close they are to reality. Really, if you go far enough in the other direction, they just turn into sci-fi, fantasy, or a dream sequence. It becomes an ungrounded exercise in wish-fulfillment, rather than a story about a hero pushed to extremes.
The one thing I will give Keaton credit for is cementing the idea that Batman wears armour (because bad guys have guns).
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:I Bat-beg to differ. It depends entirely whether you're throwing on a Bat-movie for laffs (Batman & Robin), sheer spectacle (Batman), or psychological depth (Batman Begins).
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
There really isn't much comparison.
Quote:I can easily see why it's your favourite Bat-movie, but Superman: The Movie will always be my favourite Superhero flick. Iron Man, Batman Begins & Batman come real close, though.
Batman Begins is my favorite all-time Batman movie. Quite possibly my favorite comic hero movie ever.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Nope, sorry Chris, Batman Begins has spectacle and depth and great acting and a great story. Beg to differ all you want, there still isn't any comparison.
Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.
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Quote:Sorry, no. Not for me. Batman STILL hasn't been done entirely right IMO. Nolan did great, but real world? Nah. Close, but no fat lady singing.
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
The Nolanverse is the first version of Batman that really took the concept seriously and not as a cartoon stereotype.
You can almost imagine Nolan's Batman existing in the real world, where none of the previous versions could function outside of their particular little caricatures
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:So, pizza has no comparison to Atlantic Salmon. I did not know that.
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Nope, sorry Chris, Batman Begins has spectacle and depth and great acting and a great story. Beg to differ all you want, there still isn't any comparison.
The laughing Chrisisall
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I'm comparing Batman movies to Batman movies, not pizza and fish. And yeah, pizza with toppings is better than melted cheese on crust 
By the way, Heath Ledger was crazy awesome
Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.
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Quote:I've liked Batmans, and I've liked Waynes, but they still have never cast an actor that can handle BOTH *perfectly* IMO.
Originally posted by ChaosMandy:
I enjoyed the first Batman movie, but I love the new ones with Christian Bale. He makes such a perfect Batman, and I can't wait for the next movie to come out.
Give me Ryan McPartlin or Josh Brolin OR a NEW face along the lines of a young Christopher Reeve, and I'd be totally happy.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:just sayin' that a gourmet fish dinner is more substantial than pizza, much like BB is more substantial than B.
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I'm comparing Batman movies to Batman movies, not pizza and fish.
Quote:
By the way, Heath Ledger was crazy awesome
The laughing Chrisisall
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Has 'em all beat:
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I *LOVE* that movie as well!
AND- it has the best Batmobile of all time!!!!
The somedaysyoujustcan'tgetridofabomb Chrisisall
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Just Googled 'Batmobile'. Had no idea there were so many different ones, but yeah, coolest by far:
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Mutt, check this diecast out!
http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Wheels-2090-series-Batmobile/dp/B001JIO4BS
I'm dyin' to get one!
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by beatupplenty:
Keaton is my favorite Batman. He is so unexpected.
"...I'm Batman."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mutt999:
Just Googled 'Batmobile'. Had no idea there were so many different ones,
Aside: This is one of the things I love about the Batman comics; it's written in that he changes his costume/equipment every few months --think of how quickly a computer becomes obsolete, now apply that to bleeding-edge military-grade hardware (with the added wrinkle of being routinely shot at, set on fire, dropped off buildings, dragged through flooded sewers, exposed to toxins, radioactivity, and the occasional judgement-impared teenager).
Basically, it gives every new artist/writer free reign to design their own "look" from the ground up. Want a batmobile tank? Fine. A modified Bugatti? Cool. A BttF-style flying car? Go ahead.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Yes. It's cool that way.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Okay, let's get real here. A messed-up rich guy with primo physicality, detective skills, a bat fascination, & a death wish?
Can you say nonsense?
I knew that you could.
Keaton's Batman rules employing this reasoning.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, now I just watched Batman (Keaton), and I watched Batman Begins the other week. Man, I am SO split on which I like better...
Batman has:
A peerless Joker performance (no, this is NOT a debatable point, TDK's Joker just copied Brandon Lee's Crow, but in colour).
A cool Batmobile.
A hot love interest.
Great fight scenes.
A visually interesting & goth Gotham, and fascinating production design in general.
Funny jokes.
An excellent Elfman score.
A twisted mentality.
Drawbacks:
Some cheesy FX, rushed & thin storyline (writer's strike).
Batman Begins has:
Lush photography.
An excellent Zimmer score.
A cool Batmobile chase.
Insane fight scenes.
A super-serious tone.
Gary Oldman.
Morgan Freeman.
Michael Caine.
Drawbacks:
CGI sometimes makes me sleepy, Bale's Wayne performance can be rather unsympathetic compared to Keaton's (or Clooney's).
Seriously, I like both these movies so much, if I had to choose only ONE, I'd be lost.
Got Opinion?
The flyingmouse Chrisisall
All mighty valid points, but I have to give the trophy to this interpretation of the Dark Knight:
PROS
- Danny Elfman score
- Kevin Conroy doing a Batman/Bruce Wayne dichotomy that really works
- Mark Hamill as the Joker, baby!
- Rogues Gallery villains that weren't Thalidomide babies, cat-resurrected corpses, or apparent survivors of toxic waste dips
- Respectful to the mythos without going overboard with the Gothic horror, camp or playing it for real parts of the spectrum
CONS
- Animation style's a tad dated these days
- Batman was already Batman at the first episode
To me, the Bruce Timm-produced series from the early 90s narrowly beats out the Nolan and Burton films for Best Batman projects...and the Schumachers are dead last! Even the 60s TV series and movie were less campy!
"The revenge of the beaten comes in refusing to fall." -- Mal, in "The Losing Side - Chapter 45" by jetflair
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Hey Big 'C'.
Well I've been mulling this one over myself for a while now as I recenty re-watched the Adam West Batman and have to say it has a place in my heart. It's sheer escapism and pure fun. It has The Joker, The Penguin, The Riddler and Catwoman. An absolutely HILARIOUS Batman repelling a shark on the end of his leg with Anti-Bat 'Shark Repellant' a riotous scene with Batman trying to dispose of a Bomb (which is shaped like a cartoon Bomb) on a seafront pier and being thwarted mutliple times by people getting in his way, and at one point a family of Ducks who are swimming in the sea - causing Adam West to utter: "Some days you just can't get rid of a Bomb!" In short it has plenty of content and is still funny! And yes the Car is the BEST!
Back in the 80's when Tim Burton's Batman came out. It was awesome! Great sets, GREAT score and an edgey Batman that I wanted. It was Dark brooding and deeply menacing and it was perfect... Of it's time and wonderful. It came with AMAZING hype and build-up and because of that it was more than just a film. It was an icon of 80's cinema. The Batman LOGO became something more than just a badge on a guy wearing a costume. It grew beyond the medium it sprang from. Even now I get goose bumps seeing folk wear that T-shirt because it takes me back to 1989. It was the very image (for me) of summer in 1989... So it became and remains an epic film. Flawed of course - but still Epic!!!
Now Batman Begins... Whilst arguably a better written script and perhaps a more conscise story lacked cinematic punch. Bale was, sorry Phoenix Rose, just not cutting the mustard, for me. He was a fine Batman (excepet for that ridiculous raspy voice) but I couldn't agree less about his Bruce Wayne. Keaton is way better. Bale's Wayne is just a type of obvious charade, where as Keaton is oozing angst and brooding physchosis and clearly deeply scarred. As for the supporting cast well Katie Holmes is woeful and ruins the impact. The Liam Nielson twist is rather anti-climactic and Morgan Freeman is just being Morgan Freeman. I tend to get flack for this last remark as for some reason people always think that whatever Morgan Freeman does is brilliant and he cannot be questioned - but I don't like him in the Batman films. That said it was a an enjoyable film, but just didn't have the weight, the sheer freight-train-thunderous THUMP! The Burton one had. I actually think Dark Knight was far far better, but that I imagine is for another time and thread...
So to sum up....
Batman (1989)
Batman the Movie (1966)
Batman Begins (2005)
However. The one I watch the most is BATMAN RETURNS. (....Just appeals to my sensibilities)
P.S. Sorry for spelling mistakes - I'm writing this on the fly....
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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I must agree that the animated Batman is the best.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:THANK YOU!!!
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
that ridiculous raspy voice
It's not just me...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
... Keaton is oozing angst and brooding physchosis and clearly deeply scarred.
Yeah, his Wayne is exactly like his Batman. Kind of eliminates the whole need for 'secret identity.' Alternately, other actors have played their Batman exactly like their Bruce Wayne, which has also been kind of lame. Yes, Bruce Wayne is deeply scarred, but I would posit that those scars come out in the form of Batman. Batman is Wayne's psychosis, very nearly to the point of a split personality. Wayne is also pretty brilliant, and part of that comes out in knowing that he has to distance himself from Batman to avoid suspicion. The line is blurry, but they're different characters that need to be played differently. I know there's something to be said for nostalgia, but I grew up with Batman, grew up with those movies. I always thought there was something missing from all the portrayals I saw, and then Bale delivered it. His Wayne might play like a charade to you because it very simply is one; obfuscating spoiled rich boy. Now, part of that is down to the writing, this movie having scenes in it that were clearly designed to cast Bruce Wayne in that very role, but some credit goes for the casting. I know Bale has caught a lot of heat in recent times and it's kind of cool to hate on him, but that does not change my mind even a little bit about his talents.
Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.
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Exactly, Batman/Bruce is actually a mirror image of Clark/Superman. In Gotham, Batman is the real person, while "Bruce Wayne" is nothing more than another mask Batman wears to serve a specific purpose (functionally no different from "Matches Malone" or any of his other aliases). In Metropolis, Clark Kent is the real person, while "Superman" is just a costume he wears.
There've been storylines where Bruce Wayne just disappeared for weeks or even months at a time --Batman was too busy with a case to bother putting up the charade. (Conversely, "Superman" recently took a year off, while Clark continued working every day at the Planet.)
Bruce Wayne died that night in Crime Alley, his body just hasn't caught up yet.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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No hate for Bale from me. I actually have always liked the guy. I just don't like his Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins. Not every negative comment comes with a hate tag. Similarly because I pointed out that I don't enjoy Morgan Freeman's character in Begins, it doesn't translate to disliking Morgan Freeman. Quite the contrary.
I will conceed that as with all of these things it boils down to personal opinion and nothing more. There's no secret formula and I won't try and relay anything as such to you. Merely pointing out why I enjoyed Keaton's Wayne over Bale's Wayne.
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:While I liked Clooney's Wayne very much, it was too one dimensional (kind of like the movie itself, I'll admit)- Keaton's Wayne seemed damaged, and I liked that. Of course, his Batman was near perfection, at least to me.
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I enjoyed Keaton's Wayne over Bale's Wayne.
Kilmer seemed to be sleepwalking through both roles, and Bale's Wayne seemed too needy & whining.
Again, to ME.
The laughing Chrisisall
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I guess it all boils down to my favourite Batman live action moment- in the 1989 flick where he intentionally drops Jack into his chemical fate. The look in Keaton's eyes was priceless, and painful. I still get goosebumps to this day watching it.
The laughing Chrisisall
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PhoenixRose, I'm really sorry to be going here, but it's necessary for my reality-check.
Batman is deadly serious in comics.
However, that's a medium that allows for insane extremes where 'drama' is concerned.
To treat Batman as someone that can exist in the real world is nonsense IMO.
Give me Keaton. Hell, give me Clooney. 12 Hells, give me Adam West!!
But Bale & Nolan delivered realism couched in fantasy.
Please Nolan, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we real or are we fantasy????
The demanding Chrisisall
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
While I liked Clooney's Wayne very much, it was too one dimensional (kind of like the movie itself, I'll admit)- Keaton's Wayne seemed damaged, and I liked that. Of course, his Batman was near perfection, at least to me.
Kilmer seemed to be sleepwalking through both roles, and Bale's Wayne seemed too needy & whining.
Again, to ME.
By the time Joel Schumacher came on board to direct those films the momentum of the previous two Batman's were such that you could've made Kermit the Frog The Caped Crusader and people would still have gone to see it!... Actually I'd probably go see a Muppet Batman spoof... Anyway point being I think it neither Clooney or Kilmer's fault at how they interpreted Bruce Wayne/Batman. The marketing machine was such that it was inconsequential who adorned the rubber suit. They were merely beefcake for hire...
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
I guess it all boils down to my favourite Batman live action moment- in the 1989 flick where he intentionally drops Jack into his chemical fate. The look in Keaton's eyes was priceless, and painful. I still get goosebumps to this day watching it.
Agreed.
Also In Batman Returns when the Circus Gang are bothering an old lady and Batman is merely just looking on. He doesn't move to help her. It's when the gang notice Batman and make a move for him that he then reacts. Always thought that extremely telling of the character of Batman.
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Bale's Wayne is just a type of obvious charade, where as Keaton is oozing angst and brooding physchosis and clearly deeply scarred. A
Well.... that's kinda the point, and how it's supposed to be. Bale's Wayne is only an obvious charade to the omniscient observer. In context, he is exactly what people expect from a spoiled trust-fund brat. It's the point of his cover. The public isn't supposed to see his real personality.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hell, give me Clooney. 12 Hells, give me Adam West!!
But Bale & Nolan delivered realism couched in fantasy.
Please Nolan, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we real or are we fantasy????
I can't even take you seriously on the subject now.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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I grew up with Keaton, he will always be the cool Batman for me.
Also, you got Nicholson, Basinger, and no whiny sidekick!!!
I roam the rooftops alone, birdboy...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hell, give me Clooney. 12 Hells, give me Adam West!!
But Bale & Nolan delivered realism couched in fantasy.
Please Nolan, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we real or are we fantasy????
I can't even take you seriously on the subject now.
Ditto.
Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hell, give me Clooney. 12 Hells, give me Adam West!!
But Bale & Nolan delivered realism couched in fantasy.
Please Nolan, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we real or are we fantasy????
I can't even take you seriously on the subject now.
Ditto.
It took you guys this long to not take him seriously on this? Hell, he lost me right off, when he said Ledger was aping Lee.
No, dude. No. Not even the makeup was similar. You're officially deluded on the subject. You shouldn't pretend otherwise.
The Nolan movies truly bring the comic books to life. They are comic books on film, basically. When I'm interested in seeing my comic book Batman in a film, I go for those. When I am interested in Ham and Cheese, I might go for one of the others.
Now, you folks can argue til the cows come home about what is most fun to watch, but if you're going to talk about telling a good story, the early films clearly weren't even aiming for that. They were aiming for Camp. Possibly even aiming for Cheese. They were aiming for fun or spectacular visuals. Weren't aiming for quality storytelling. I think Burton even lampshaded that when he had the Joker asking where Batman got all those wonderful toys. That was never explained in the films, it was just kind of handwaved away as, "Well, Batman has cool stuff, because he's Batman." The Nolan films set out to tell the story, give us answers (however unlikely some of them were) and actually develop some characters. I wouldn't call them flawless, far from it, but in terms of quality storytelling in a live-action Batman franchise, that's where it's at.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Originally posted by LiLi:
Quote:
It took you guys this long to not take him seriously on this? Hell, he lost me right off, when he said Ledger was aping Lee.
No, dude. No. Not even the makeup was similar. You're officially deluded on the subject. You shouldn't pretend otherwise.
The Nolan movies truly bring the comic books to life. They are comic books on film, basically. When I'm interested in seeing my comic book Batman in a film, I go for those. When I am interested in Ham and Cheese, I might go for one of the others.
Now, you folks can argue til the cows come home about what is most fun to watch, but if you're going to talk about telling a good story, the early films clearly weren't even aiming for that. They were aiming for Camp. Possibly even aiming for Cheese. They were aiming for fun or spectacular visuals. Weren't aiming for quality storytelling. I think Burton even lampshaded that when he had the Joker asking where Batman got all those wonderful toys. That was never explained in the films, it was just kind of handwaved away as, "Well, Batman has cool stuff, because he's Batman." The Nolan films set out to tell the story, give us answers (however unlikely some of them were) and actually develop some characters. I wouldn't call them flawless, far from it, but in terms of quality storytelling in a live-action Batman franchise, that's where it's at.
Hey Lili.
Very well put, and diffilcult to argue against. However if I may make a point; and I don't wish to speak for Chris, but I think what he may be hinting at is that once you start to do just what Nolan did to Batman - which is remove it's comic elements and try and establish it within the context of reality the very priciple of the Batman persona starts to become ridiculous.
Simply because there's no way of explaining such things as 'the gadgets' within the context of reality and yet continue to have your central character leap off buildings, dodge exploding cars and still maintain his secret identity etc. It's a kind of selective reality.
Sometimes those moments where the Joker says: "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" Are in place to act as a tonic and allow you to swallow the fantasy.
That said - I do think you're right about Nolan. He's far more cerebral about his filmmaking and he is always about telling a good story and for that he should be celebrated.
It's just that sometimes it's nice to be taken in by the wonder of it all.
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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I would argue that its 'comic' elements were not removed, but rather celebrated. Too many people associate comic books with cheese, but they are not actually like that. Many comic books are cerebral, of high quality and awesome fantasy. I've argued this point with more than one English Lit instructor in the course of my degree. It's a mistake to view something designed for escapism as necessarily vacuous. Escapism can have a backstory, and will often benefit from it. The backstory itself can be an interesting bit of fantasy. I don't think very many people study with ninjas in the mountains, and I've certainly never heard of something like memory cloth, so specialized for one purpose that it would probably not be developed for another. However, seeing such elements in a story about a man who becomes a superhero who is completely lacking in any super-power, it grants a richness to the fantasy that delights me.
I will repeat: The Nolan movies bring the comic books to life. They are comic books on film. When I'm interested in seeing my comic book Batman in a film, I go for those.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:
I've certainly never heard of something like memory cloth,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_material
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_memory_polymer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_rubber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_elastomers
http://news.discovery.com/tech/t-shirt-body-armor-tank.html
Quote:
The scientists started with a $5 package of plain, white T-shirts purchased at Wal-Mart, which they then cut into thin strips. They dipped those white cotton strips into a black solution of boron. After an hour, the strips were removed from the solution and baked in at oven at more than 1,000 degrees Celsius (1832 degrees Fahrenheit) for an hour. The heat stripped away anything that wasn't carbon or boron, and combined these two elements into boron carbide.
The resulting fabric is very different than the original materials that at the start of the process. It's lighter, stronger, tougher and stiffer than the original cotton, but it can still be bent, unlike normal boron carbide armor plates. The physical properties of the new fabric are still being tested, said Li, but "from our preliminary results we can say the test have been very, very promising."
"We expect that the nanowires can capture a bullet," said Li.
The former T-shirt can also block other hazards as well, such as cancer-causing ultraviolet light from the sun and even life-threatening neutrons emitted by decaying radioactive materials, said Li.
One can only assume this research was funded in part by a grant from Wayne Industries, and possibly by Lexcorp as well. . .
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Please Nolan, PICK ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we real or are we fantasy????
Helloooo!!! This is the problem with all current films/tv. You add too much realism, and it spoils the fantasy element. Made this comparison before but it speaks volumes. Batman Begins Batman drops a thug from about 25 feet breaking both his legs. Fine. TDK BAtman, and girl free fall from the top of a 20 story building crash on top of a car flattening it...get up brush themselves off, and walk away. Fantasy or reality. Pick One.
----------------------------------------------------------------
70's TV FOREVER
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*deleted for losing the argument*
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I can't even take you seriously on the subject now.
Because he has a valid point, or because you don't have an answer?
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70's TV FOREVER
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Quote:Same here. I own Batman Begins. Hell, I even have a Hot Wheels tumbler.
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Helloooo!!! This is the problem with all current films/tv. You add too much realism, and it spoils the fantasy element.
I liked Batman Begins. TDK was a little hard to swallow for me.
It's just that trying to nail a character like Batman to reality doesn't work perfectly for me (Superman either, for that matter). Burton's take on Batman was to twist it a little, create a reality that can support that kind of near-psychosis. Schumacher achieved this with a(n un)healthy dose of 60's goofballisms. Nolan *sort of* created a supportive working environment, but it all sort of collapses for me when I see things like Wayne almost dying on his way to the secret hidden fortress, yet living after a multiple-story fall (on fire) off a building. That's all I'm sayin', be REAL, or be FANTASY. Fantasy can have real elements to it, but they must be CONSISTENT.
A totally realistic take on Batman would be that he's as much a NUT as any of his arch-villains.
OR, that he remains low key, striking at the criminals from within their conclaves of evil, never quite taking center stage, yet his cumulative effects upon them make their effectiveness crumble like sandcastles in the oncoming high tide.
Fight scenes & roaring car chases? Comic book stuff. And actually, that's the way I like my comic book stuff. All comic-book-y.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Okay, they're both wearing white facepaint. And? Nicholson also wore white facepaint for his role as the Joker, does that mean anything? They're both slightly hunched over in those particular images. And? On film, their body language was very different. Brandon Lee was a rather graceful man, I don't remember him spending a lot of time hunched over. Ledger, I think, did a lot of it, making it far more striking when he moved swiftly and killed people with pencils. I also don't recall Lee being particularly jovial about death. I remember a great deal of angry angst. Perhaps my memory is faulty. It's been some time since I've seen it; can you tell me where he was jovial?
Facts are stubborn things.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:
It took you guys this long to not take him seriously on this? Hell, he lost me right off, when he said Ledger was aping Lee.
Nah, I was already long past there on that topic.
I went 'round with Chris on that point before. Calling the performances the same is facile and simplistic at best. I've broken down many of the very diverse characteristics that separate the performances, but to Chris it boils down to "Nuh-uh, their make-up is similar, and they both speak quietly AND raise their voices".
So no, I didn't read past the first post with any seriousness.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I can't even take you seriously on the subject now.
Because he has a valid point, or because you don't have an answer?
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70's TV FOREVER
That'd be option 3 - because I think he's point is so ludicrous it's not worth discussion.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:
It's been some time since I've seen it; can you tell me where he was jovial?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:I suddenly feel like I've lost all my credibility....
Originally posted by Storymark:
That'd be option 3 - because I think he's point is so ludicrous it's not worth discussion.
The laughing Chrisisall
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That's it? That is angst and anger, with some darkly dry humor. Telling a joke isn't necessarily jovial. I think you should maybe look up the word jovial.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Quote:Well, OBVIOUSLY they're not the same, but similar enough to make me not able to take the Joker in TDK as anything other than 'heavily influenced' by The Crow. And, it takes me out of the movie.
Originally posted by Storymark:
I went 'round with Chris on that point before. Calling the performances the same is facile and simplistic at best.
Sorry, big fan of The Crow here, so if I wasn't, I prolly would have seen Ledger's/Nolan's take of the Joker as fresh and new...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:jo·vi·al (jv-l)
Originally posted by LiLi:
That's it? That is angst and anger, with some darkly dry humor. Telling a joke isn't necessarily jovial. I think you should maybe look up the word jovial.
adj.
Marked by hearty conviviality and good cheer: a jovial host.
And, ummm, when was Ledger's Joker full of good cheer? I was taking jovial as "not just angry" in the context of our discussion.
Lee told the joke & killed the guy.
Ledger killed a guy & told a joke.
Same diff to me.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
when was Ledger's Joker full of good cheer?
In the video with the fake Batman, in the interrogation scene, during the chase when he was driving the truck, and while he was hanging upside-down off a building, just to name a few. Did you actually see this movie? Was all the delighted laughter edited out or something? The Joker delights in death and chaos. Much of the inspiration for TDK Joker came from the comic "The Killing Joke" which wonderfully shows off the deep psychosis of the Joker. Life is a joke. Death is a joke. Chaos is fun. Killing is fun. It's pretty dark, so maybe some parallel could be drawn with other characters who are deep into darkness, but really that's pretty insubstantial.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Okay, here's what we got. You guys who love the Nolan Batman flicks love them, period. I get that.
Thing of it is, if you take a somewhat flawed movie that I really love, like, oh, say, 2010, you can hand me a laundry list of things you don't like about it, and I'll probably acknowledge most if not all the points, and end with "but I like it anyway for the overall product, or at least what good points it has that are important to ME."
In the words of a certain character, "Why so serious?"
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:That's a good point. Joker was amused, Draven was not. Big difference in the characters. Still, the superficial similarities (among a bunch of other issues I have with it) are enough to make me avoid watching TDK for a third time.
Originally posted by LiLi:
Life is a joke. Death is a joke. Chaos is fun. Killing is fun.
*Runs off to watch Batman Returns*
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, here's what we got. You guys who love the Nolan Batman flicks love them, period. I get that.
Thing of it is, if you take a somewhat flawed movie that I really love, like, oh, say, 2010, you can hand me a laundry list of things you don't like about it, and I'll probably acknowledge most if not all the points, and end with "but I like it anyway for the overall product, or at least what good points it has that are important to ME."
In the words of a certain character, "Why so serious?"
The laughing Chrisisall
I have no problem acknowledging problems in films I like. I could list several about TDK itself. But when you're wrong you're wrong. It has nothing to do with being unable to see flaws.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Well, OBVIOUSLY they're not the same, but similar enough to make me not able to take the Joker in TDK as anything other than 'heavily influenced' by The Crow. And, it takes me out of the movie.
Originally posted by Storymark:
I went 'round with Chris on that point before. Calling the performances the same is facile and simplistic at best.
Sorry, big fan of The Crow here, so if I wasn't, I prolly would have seen Ledger's/Nolan's take of the Joker as fresh and new...
The laughing Chrisisall
And yet you see Jack's "Jack at 11" as some great performance?
Whatever.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
TDK BAtman, and girl free fall from the top of a 20 story building crash on top of a car flattening it...get up brush themselves off, and walk away. Fantasy or reality. Pick One.
You see no difference between a guy landing on his feet from a height and breaking his legs (plain shoes, straight leg, pressure all focused on one point, no give to the ground) and a guy wearing an armored suit designed for such situations, with a cape designed to break such falls, landing on a surface with has several feet of give? You see them as the same?
Take a physics class, and/or remove the stick from your hind-quarters....
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:I'm officially lost here...
Originally posted by Storymark:
And yet you see Jack's "Jack at 11" as some great performance?
?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
when was Ledger's Joker full of good cheer?
In the video with the fake Batman, in the interrogation scene, during the chase when he was driving the truck, and while he was hanging upside-down off a building, just to name a few. Did you actually see this movie? Was all the delighted laughter edited out or something? The Joker delights in death and chaos. Much of the inspiration for TDK Joker came from the comic "The Killing Joke" which wonderfully shows off the deep psychosis of the Joker. Life is a joke. Death is a joke. Chaos is fun. Killing is fun. It's pretty dark, so maybe some parallel could be drawn with other characters who are deep into darkness, but really that's pretty insubstantial.
Facts are stubborn things.
And that's not even touching on all the other bits of the performance.
Lee was great as the Crow, but let's face it - he played a Goth/Emo version of himself. Wry and charming, but with an edge. Playing his martial arts training up, making him come off a bit like a bird of prey. Effective for the role, but not really more than a sadder version of every other role he had played. He was very effective at playing a variation on himself.
Ledger played a character that was incredibly different from his own persona, or any other character he'd ever played. And his line deliveries were all very precise and deliberate, all done with a specific regional accent from the opposite side of the world he was raised in, which played well off the mass of physical ticks and quirks he played the character with. He won an Oscar for playing a unique character, totally removed from his own self and distinct from any other character out there (unless you fixate on the make-up, that is).
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I'm officially lost here...
Originally posted by Storymark:
And yet you see Jack's "Jack at 11" as some great performance?
?
The laughing Chrisisall
You tout Nicholson's performance in Batman '89 as this watershed performance - and while I'll agree it's entertaining, it never struck me as much more than Jack being Jack - just REALLY over-the-top Jack.
He was "the" Joker in my mind for all of about 3 years, until Mark Hammill blew him away with just voicework. Because he created a performance, instead of just hamming it up.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Oh, and for what it's worth, Keaton is my favorite live-action Batman. He played that character best. I didn't like his Wayne, and I don't think the movies have aged well at all (I tend to enjoy Returns more these days, as find '89 to be rather ponderous and too stagey), but he's still the best Bat.
I think the Nolan films are a big step up over the Burton ones in most respects, and prefer both Begins and TDK to any of the older films; but I still adore the production design and theme from that first flick.
And no, I don't care for Bale's Batman voice. He does a great job otherwise - but the voice is way over the top.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:Quote:
Originally posted by LiLi:
I've certainly never heard of something like memory cloth,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_material
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_memory_polymer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_rubber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_elastomers
http://news.discovery.com/tech/t-shirt-body-armor-tank.html
Well damn, that's pretty cool.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Quote:If I touted it as such, I'll retract it here. Having JUST seen it with Sonisall, I'd have to say you're more or less correct. It was Jack being crazy. But it worked well enough in the movie.
Originally posted by Storymark:
You tout Nicholson's performance in Batman '89 as this watershed performance - and while I'll agree it's entertaining, it never struck me as much more than Jack being Jack - just REALLY over-the-top Jack.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:I don't disagree with this particular point, sir.
Originally posted by Storymark:
I think the Nolan films are a big step up over the Burton ones in most respects
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:I kind of enjoyed the split personality Reeve brought to the Superman movies; in those cases, Kent was the role he played to protect Kal-El/Superman, the real person. Reeve brought it off well, but when they tried to continue it a bit with Routh in the latest flick, I didn't like it at all. They should have gone the 'Lois & Clark' route on that movie- it may have saved it.
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
In Metropolis, Clark Kent is the real person, while "Superman" is just a costume he wears.
The biggest single flaw in Batman & Robin was that they wanted BOTH Batman & Wayne to be the real guys. That part failed miserably. If they wanted Wayne to be 'real', then Batman should have been waaay out there. You can't have your bat-cake, and eat it too. That makes for guano.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The biggest single flaw in Batman & Robin was that they wanted BOTH Batman & Wayne to be the real guys. That part failed miserably. If they wanted Wayne to be 'real', then Batman should have been waaay out there. You can't have your bat-cake, and eat it too. That makes for guano.
Well, not to defent that piece of go-se, but that was at least concpetually the correct way to go with that movie, as the whole thematic thrust and literal climax (that came out dirtier than I had planned) of Batman Forever was about him reconciling and accepting both sides of his life. It would have been a cheat if they had ignored that going into part 4.
Now, granted, they botched it about as much as they possibly could. But that one element, was conceptually sound, I feel.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Can we compare B&R 'botched' lists here, Story?
Originally posted by Storymark:
Now, granted, they botched it about as much as they possibly could. But that one element, was conceptually sound, I feel.
Bat nipples.
Batmobile (Fugly beyond belief- chicks do not FIT IN, or love the car).
Needlessly blinding colours.
Bat skates /Bat hockey.
Bat sky surfing & no death.
I won't touch the freezing Gotham peeps & thawing them out...
That said, i still like the film on occasion for a big laff. Plus, the Bruce/Alfred scenes are really very good, IMO.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Yep, all things that were horrible.
Though the Bat-Nipples first cropped up in Forever.
And I agree the Bruce/Alfred scenes are effective. Cloony was the best Bruce Wayne in some ways (Wayne ONLY - I consider him the worst Bat. But that's about the only good I can say about it.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Absolutely. Like I said, the movie is mainly only good for laffs.
Originally posted by Storymark:
I consider him the worst Bat.
Ahnult was great! HAHAhahahahaha!!! What overacting!!! If it weren't for him, I'd probably not own the special edition.
Yeah, I'm twisted that way.
Escape From LA cracks me up even harder...
The admittedly strange Chrisisall
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It is the one and only Batman related DVD I do not, and will not purchase. I've turned down the special edition, 2 disks and all, from the $3 bin.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:$3!!! It was $4 where I am!!!
Originally posted by Storymark:
It is the one and only Batman related DVD I do not, and will not purchase. I've turned down the special edition, 2 disks and all, from the $3 bin.
!!!!I'm the first to admit that what makes me LOL usually makes most others cringe. Wifeisall would more gladly shoot the TV than watch some of my wacky choices. Especially B&R.
[serious now]
Objectively (or trying to be, at any rate),
Batman Begins is one of the three best superhero films ever made, the other two being Superman: The Movie & Iron Man.
Just to set the record straight.
[/serious]
Now, on to how much I like Robocop 3...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You see no difference between a guy landing on his feet from a height and breaking his legs (plain shoes, straight leg, pressure all focused on one point, no give to the ground) and a guy wearing an armored suit designed for such situations, with a cape designed to break such falls, landing on a surface with has several feet of give? You see them as the same?
Take a physics class, and/or remove the stick from your hind-quarters....
Yeah if the cape slowed him down a bit its plausible. But it didn't. Body armor wouldn't do anything to cushion you from a 300' fall. You could be wearing Vibranium Adamantium armor, but the fact is your insides would still be jarred so badly you would be dead in an instant.
With this reasoning The Joker from the original Batman(1989) movie should have been alive at the end after his fall. I guess Tim Burton's film has more realism than TDK.
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70's TV FOREVER
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Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You see no difference between a guy landing on his feet from a height and breaking his legs (plain shoes, straight leg, pressure all focused on one point, no give to the ground) and a guy wearing an armored suit designed for such situations, with a cape designed to break such falls, landing on a surface with has several feet of give? You see them as the same?
Take a physics class, and/or remove the stick from your hind-quarters....
Yeah if the cape slowed him down a bit its plausible. But it didn't. Body armor wouldn't do anything to cushion you from a 300' fall. You could be wearing Vibranium Adamantium armor, but the fact is your insides would still be jarred so badly you would be dead in an instant.
Well, I didn't say it was entirely realistic, just that there's enough implied in the scene and the universe established in the films that suggests its possible.
Quote:
With this reasoning The Joker from the original Batman(1989) movie should have been alive at the end after his fall. I guess Tim Burton's film has more realism than TDK.
Sure, if you ignore the actual reasoning. A (longer) fall, unprotected, onto pavement, is NOT the same circumstances.... as I already detailed, and you ignored...
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:You just killed the first Iron Man movie for me...
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Body armor wouldn't do anything to cushion you from a 300' fall. You could be wearing Vibranium Adamantium armor, but the fact is your insides would still be jarred so badly you would be dead in an instant.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Hell, just the maneuvering Iron Man does should liquefy him inside the suit, much less any impact.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:May I respectfully suggest that you not bring physics into the discussion, then?
Originally posted by Storymark:
Well, I didn't say it was entirely realistic,
Oh man, I LOVE these GEEK discussions!
This is so much more fun than RWED!
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:Maybe his space division provided inertial dampers for the suits...?
Originally posted by Storymark:
Hell, just the maneuvering Iron Man does should liquefy him inside the suit, much less any impact.
Which still wouldn't explain how he survived the desert crash landing in the initial suit...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
May I respectfully suggest that you not bring physics into the discussion, then?
When did I bring it in then? I responded to someone else doing so, with story logic. I'm no scientist.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:There was a scene in Mission Impossible III where an explosion knocked Tom Cruise back into a car, and they did it mostly with ropes, then CGI took them out, so it looked great, and Tom was suitably frazzled for the next few moments. BUT, think how YOU would react in that situation...
Originally posted by Storymark:
I responded to someone else doing so, with story logic. I'm no scientist.
I'd be on the ground for at least a minute, probably more. I wouldn't be able to stand correctly for a few minutes, let alone run.
And this is all assuming I didn't break my neck hitting the car.
A totally realistic movie with humans just in great shape isn't possible anymore, let alone superheroes wearing body armour...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:There was a scene in Mission Impossible III where an explosion knocked Tom Cruise back into a car, and they did it mostly with ropes, then CGI took them out, so it looked great, and Tom was suitably frazzled for the next few moments. BUT, think how YOU would react in that situation...
Originally posted by Storymark:
I responded to someone else doing so, with story logic. I'm no scientist.
I'd be on the ground for at least a minute, probably more. I wouldn't be able to stand correctly for a few minutes, let alone run.
And this is all assuming I didn't break my neck hitting the car.
A totally realistic movie with humans just in great shape isn't possible anymore, let alone superheroes wearing body armour...
I don't know that this is a fair comparison. YOU may not have been able to stand after that - but he wasn't playing a regular Joe... he was playing a highly trained and hardened super-spy.
It's not like he was blasted 3 feet into the metal, it was a shockwave effect - something completely within the realm of believability with a human body. Didn't strike me as implausible. Certainly not on the scale of a man pulling High-G maneuvers and stops FAR beyond what the human body can cope with.
You want something more in-line with the impossible - I'd go with the 'Nuke the fridge' scene.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:That tested even MY patience, and you KNOW I can accept a lot. Indy movies strike as significantly more grounded in 'reality' than Batman or Iron Man movies, so that scene REALLY pissed me off the first time I saw it.
Originally posted by Storymark:
You want something more in-line with the impossible - I'd go with the 'Nuke the fridge' scene.
Later I realized it was just that God didn't want him to die yet.
yeah, that's it.....
EDIT TO ADD: Hooooboy, I just re-read this and NEED to 'splain something! Not that Demons from the Lost Arc are more believable than anything in BB or TDK, just that the NON-MYSTICAL stuff seems more so- like the Indy gets dragged/Indy gets hurt kinda thing. Or the he-can't-drop-the-big-dude-with-one-punch thing. Savy?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
EDIT TO ADD: Hooooboy, I just re-read this and NEED to 'splain something! Not that Demons from the Lost Arc are more believable than anything in BB or TDK, just that the NON-MYSTICAL stuff seems more so- like the Indy gets dragged/Indy gets hurt kinda thing. Or the he-can't-drop-the-big-dude-with-one-punch thing. Savy?
The laughing Chrisisall
I totally get you. Yes, Indy has the outlandish and supernatural as part of his world, but they are things unto themselves. The rest of the world as portrayed in those flicks is still a fairly "real" place where punches hurt and bones can be broken.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Later I realized it was just that God didn't want him to die yet.
yeah, that's it.....
Remember in The Last Crusade, when he drank from the Grail? Didn't that bestow immortality?
For all we know he did die when the fridge landed --then immediately revived, Highlander-style.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Later I realized it was just that God didn't want him to die yet.
yeah, that's it.....
Remember in The Last Crusade, when he drank from the Grail? Didn't that bestow immortality?
For all we know he did die when the fridge landed --then immediately revived, Highlander-style.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
The power didn't reach past the seal.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Dang, and that sounded like the best explanation yet!!!!! GRRRRR...
The laughing Chrisisall
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@ Somnambulist- *just* watched a *good* transfer of Batman Returns and WOW, I just LOVE the re-design of Keaton's Bat-suit!!! I totally forgot how GREAT it looked!!!
And the editing/pace of the flick is much better.
Still, big penguins with dudes in costumes at the end, but whatever. BR is now easily on par with the first film for me!
The first two Burton movies are still my favourites, after all.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
@ Somnambulist- *just* watched a *good* transfer of Batman Returns and WOW, I just LOVE the re-design of Keaton's Bat-suit!!! I totally forgot how GREAT it looked!!!
And the editing/pace of the flick is much better.
Still, big penguins with dudes in costumes at the end, but whatever. BR is now easily on par with the first film for me!
The first two Burton movies are still my favourites, after all.
Hey good to hear Chris. I still think that flick endures but I will conceed you have to be into the twisted logic for it to work for you... Luckily most of the time I am and to some extent that's helped by the ever brilliant DeVito who is so passionate about the part that it almost doesn't matter how absurd things become. He's absolutely convincing. Kudos to Pfieffer too who is quite amazing in her duality.
I like the angle this one took, and it feels more Burton than the previous one. Less Blockbuster.
It's beautifully filmed, stylized to the extent of the old German expressionst movies of the 30's and has a wonderful orchestral score. The opening scene with Birth of A Penguin is extraordary given there's no dialogue to help the narrative. It's all masterfully done with the notes of Mr Elfman making you feel at once sad and horrified of what lurks within the baby basket. Genius!
Did you catch the scene I mentioned where Batman is looking on, as the Circus gang run riot and two goons are terrorising an old lady? Batman enters the frame just watching events unfold! Not looking to help her at all, just waiting to engage with the thugs. Perfect character moment.
Keaton's Batman is less hero than Bale's but more furious avenger!
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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The part that really made me jump was when Batman stuck the bomb it the strong dude's pants, then kicked him down the sewer! That was SO cold! He even smiled. Chilling.
Batman was excellent superhero adventure IMO.
Batman Returns was twisted high superhero art.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
The part that really made me jump was when Batman stuck the bomb it the strong dude's pants, then kicked him down the sewer! That was SO cold! He even smiled. Chilling.
Batman was excellent superhero adventure IMO.
Batman Returns was twisted high superhero art.
...Now I wanna see them again!
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:Unlike the 60's one, Keaton's Batman has no trouble getting rid of a bomb!!
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
The part that really made me jump was when Batman stuck the bomb it the strong dude's pants, then kicked him down the sewer! That was SO cold! He even smiled. Chilling.
...Now I wanna see them again!
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, now I just watched Batman (Keaton), and I watched Batman Begins the other week. Man, I am SO split on which I like better...
Batman has:
A peerless Joker performance (no, this is NOT a debatable point, TDK's Joker just copied Brandon Lee's Crow, but in colour).
A cool Batmobile.
A hot love interest.
Great fight scenes.
A visually interesting & goth Gotham, and fascinating production design in general.
Funny jokes.
An excellent Elfman score.
A twisted mentality.
Drawbacks:
Some cheesy FX, rushed & thin storyline (writer's strike).
Which of his bimbos were you referring to as hot? The one who promised she would finally leave America, but reneged on her end of the bargain?
Quote:
Batman Begins has:
Lush photography.
An excellent Zimmer score.
A cool Batmobile chase.
Insane fight scenes.
A super-serious tone.
Gary Oldman.
Morgan Freeman.
Michael Caine.
Drawbacks:
CGI sometimes makes me sleepy, Bale's Wayne performance can be rather unsympathetic compared to Keaton's (or Clooney's).
You seem to lose sight that Katie was the ultimate Bat-hottie.
Begins might not be perfect, but beats all previous by far.
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Quote:Meh. Cruise's ex in Batman Forever was hotter.
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
You seem to lose sight that Katie was the ultimate Bat-hottie.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The part that really made me jump was when Batman stuck the bomb it the strong dude's pants, then kicked him down the sewer! That was SO cold! He even smiled. Chilling.
Batman was excellent superhero adventure IMO.
Batman Returns was twisted high superhero art.
As much as I like the movie, that scenes shows a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of the character.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:It's said they based that Batman off the Dark Knight graphic novel.
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The part that really made me jump was when Batman stuck the bomb it the strong dude's pants, then kicked him down the sewer! That was SO cold! He even smiled. Chilling.
As much as I like the movie, that scenes shows a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of the character.
One that does not play well with others.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Which I view as a lame, after-the-fact attempt to brush away bad writing. And nonsensical, as even that version of Batman STILL wouldn't kill, much less with a smile. So, it's a BS excuse, at best.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Hey, know what? I don't care all that much. I wasn't into Batman from the comics, so my latitude for interpretation is rather wide here. I *DO* understand that comic fans will be much more strict (as evidenced by two of my friends going on and on back in 1989 with their "Everyone knows Joe Chill killed the Waynes, NOT JOKER!!!" meme).
The laughing Chrisisall
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It'd be like... say in Shindig, right before Mal fought Atherton.... he knealt down and asked Ath to pray with him.
Not. Right.
I didn't care about combining Joe Chill and the Joker. For reasons of brevity, it worked.
But to violate the character's core defining characteristic of the last several decades, is just bad writing. And their excuse was lazy and simply factually wrong.
But you bought it, so I guess it worked to a degree....
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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I like the Timm Batman a lot, and I hear it's the most accurate. Now that Bat would never kill a bad guy if he could help it.
The Burton/Keaton Batman is, for me, like, the mean one.
or a leeeetle bit nutz
The laughing Chrisisall
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Yeah, the Timm version is the gold standard.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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