Companions 'Gilded Cage'

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 08:47
VIEWED: 36238
PAGE 1 of 2

Or maybe "Guilded Cage." http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncrediblyLamePun

With a nod to Chrisisall for his excellent discussion recently, there have been emails flying back and forth over sub topics of the issue he brought up, and he said I could split off a new thread.

Specifically, we've discussed how WE feel about the profession, that that seems incomplete without discussing how the most prominent example we have of that profession HERSELF feels about it. Does she REALLY like it? Are there parts that trouble her? Does she have other options? Does she wish she did?

AnotherSky said this about Inara:

"The character just feels so trapped--if not by the "bird in a gilded cage" cliche, then by her pulling-teeth relationship with Mal, her relationship with her "secret", her relationship with the past contacts we see, her relationship with herself. Being amazing and being happy aren't fairy-tale-style mutually exclusive, but they are not mutually inclusive either. Something, possibly many things about her are played "not happy" (I can't say I'm privy to which), and she is also doing her darndest to deny it. And that hurts to see."

Some of us have already been discussing this (emails!) but thoughts?

See the original thread here:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=41888

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

A really interesting question, or set of questions, frustrated by the paucity of the evidence. An initial caveat: we know so little about the canon Inara, and are so unlikely to learn more, that the best we can do is come up with an answer that satisfies our biases about the character, and is consistent with what little we know about the her. I recognize that this is stating the obvious.

It's hard to say if she really likes her work. She obviously takes pride in it, or at least the status that accompanies it--or maybe all of the effort that it took to become a companion.

I find it difficult to believe, however, that someone who was truly 100% invested in being a companion would board Serenity in the first place. That, and the occasional off-hand comment (for example, Are these my people? in Shindig) suggset some measure of dissatisfaction with her life--and does she have a life outside of her work? For whatever reason, companion training strikes me as incompatible with a relection and an interior life--its about control, not navel gazing.

We know that she was formerly extremely ambitious, and set on becoming the next high priestess, so it seems there's been a shift in her attitude towards her job at some point. I prefer to think of her current attitude as ambivalent.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

She does tend to philosophize, doesn't she? Gillian Rose had a few things to say about that, I think I'll let her elaborate when she gets here.

If we assume that Inara's current interest in the profession (what she gets any degree of enjoyment out of) is mostly as a kind of mystic healer, then there's a lot within the profession that could be considered superfluous. There's also the suggestion that perhaps the rich people she services don't have the same troubles as people fighting for their lives day-to-day. Maybe.

It could be that while helping people gives her some fulfillment, it's the how that's the problem. It could be that the only source of pride she has in the profession is as a source of Independence (and I capitalized that for a reason). And if she feels like she doesn't have many other options, that plus not liking other aspects of the profession could be why she gets defensive.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

perhaps independence, and accomplishment? becoming a companion is no mean feat--consider how nandi washed out--let alone being a companion talented enough to be considered a serious candidate for high priestess at some point. few make it that far, and it would only be fitting to look back at all of your sacrifices and training and feel a sense of pride.

being a companion must grant inara a lot of independence, financially at least, but ultimately, she is dependent on the guild. or at least the infrastructure of the guild, and all of its rituals and conventions, licensing requirements, etc... i could imagine that becoming stiffling after a certain point.

also, i may as well address the hulking elephant in the room: sex. thinking that inara enjoys the trappings of profession, and the mystic/healer elements is one thing--and kind of my take on it--but it also evades the fact that she, not to put it delicately, humps for a living. would anybody advance a claim that she really enjoys the sexual elements of the profession? i'm not sure that would be inconsistent with her character, but would it be troubling? is that something a companion is supposed to do?

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm not sure Nandi washed out, she seems to be older than Inara, and I doubt she was a kid when she replaced the bastard who used to run the Heart of Gold.

Part of the reason I posted this thread is to ask if Inara DOESN'T like the sex-for-money thing. Look at the few times we see her. Very modest in the pilot, if at all, and one time in the comic books when she's actively fantasizing about something else while with a client.

The thing she seems to get most defensive about her profession is being called a whore.

I've said it before, but I think Inara is meant to be something of a mirror for Mal. I think Mal has a lot of rogue in him, and in a way he's still rebelling against the government, but ultimately I think the stealing and killing people bothers him, makes him think he's a bad man. So if I'm right, that means that Inara must in some ways find her own profession a little demeaning and that it lessens her self worth. Maybe both characters try to deny this on the surface, which is why the "petty thief" and the "whore" insults hit them so much harder than any of the others.

Is that something a companion is supposed to do? No, I don't think so. it would distract from the job.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

very nice point, byte--perhaps inara wouldn't be bothered so much by the captain's insistence on calling her a whore if she didn't occasionally feel like a whore? perhaps she gets frustrated with the reductivist view of her profession--no matter what she has to offer, her 'verse is probably full of jerks like me who point out that inara has sex for money. so do whores.

however we frame it, that isa t the core of her profession. but if it truly bothered her, i imagine there are other careers that would give her ample opportunity to practice her hot-looking-mystical-healer routine. But really, we don't know what kinds of options inara, or any companion, has--if its the kind of life that you can leave.

agreed that mal and inara are mirrors, and that there is something almost...debased..about them. mal makes his living with violence, and doesn't take pride in it. inara makes her living with sex, and is in my read at least, ambivalent about it. perhaps they both feel trapped by circumstances--mal's cage isn't gilded, though.

side note: nandi washed out in the sense that either she couldn't handle companion training (that damned dulcimer) or the companion lifestyle. being a dear friend of inara, that may suggest she shares some of her friend's dissatisfaction?

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Nandi: I think it might.

Quote:

---

but if it truly bothered her, i imagine there are other careers that would give her ample opportunity to practice her hot-looking-mystical-healer routine.

---

Hmm. Are there? Teacher, maybe. Or maybe her taking up vows as a buddhist monk. Neither of which I think would allow her to support herself. Which seems to be important, that whole idea of Independence. Perhaps she's still a little dependent on the guild, at least for respectability, but ultimately this allows her to earn her own living.

And in regards to options... I'm not sure she has any. Defending her profession could be less pride, and more trying to protect the last thing she has. Very similar to Mal protecting the symbol of his own Independence.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Nandi: I think it might.

Quote:

---

but if it truly bothered her, i imagine there are other careers that would give her ample opportunity to practice her hot-looking-mystical-healer routine.

---

Hmm. Are there? Teacher, maybe. Or maybe her taking up vows as a buddhist monk. Neither of which I think would allow her to support herself. Which seems to be important, that whole idea of Independence. Perhaps she's still a little dependent on the guild, at least for respectability, but ultimately this allows her to earn her own living.

And in regards to options... I'm not sure she has any. Defending her profession could be less pride, and more trying to protect the last thing she has. Very similar to Mal protecting the symbol of his own Independence.

---

I like your last point. It maybe the only thing Inara has left.

Something (we're not sure what according to canon)made her leave the " security" of Shinon and a "respectable" life as Companion and she's ended up on a tramp spaceship roaming the Rim without the protection of the Guild.

Just like Mal.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I don't see Inara hating her job, or shying away/prohibiting herself from enjoying sex with clients (at times, obviously some are going to be more to her liking than others). When Kaylee asks about the "romance" as Inara's preparing to meet Fess Higgins, Inara smiles, cheerfully it seems to me, and replies that she hopes so.

It's maybe a tricky thing to face squarely, that Inara is a sex worker. She's so cultured, sophisticated, highly intelligent and educated, so strongly moral - presented, all around, as an admirable character, despite being beheld by an audience that largely does not esteem sex workers. But if the show had continued I think Joss would have pushed the audience a bit, had us go through stories where Inara surprised us, where the reality of Companion work was not so comfortable, where it wouldn't be so easy to identify with Inara.

I also don't see Inara loving her job, relishing going on with her profession. Maybe at one point she did - maybe early in her training she fell deeply in love with the arts, the history, the ritual, the culture around Companions. Maybe the world of study and pursuit of excellence in these areas was very fulfilling to her, and she imagined that she would feel that way for her entire career. Perhaps that is why she was in some consideration for eventual House Mother. We know from Joss' writing that Companions can and do retire and go on to significant careers in other areas. Maybe Inara, in those early years, never imagined wanting anything more than a life inside the Guild, surrounded by its rich heritage and by her Sisters as well. But things change, people change - and nobody has to be at fault - and she has a different set of feelings and priorities now. The example I gave when I emailed Bytemite was, imagine Inara was a graduate or postgraduate student/researcher at a very prestigious university. She loves the place, has worked very hard to get there, finds it beautiful and stimulating, and at that point she dreams of becoming a full professor, department chair, dean, spending her entire career within the university. After say, 10 years, she might still love and respect her university and all it has to offer - but might not feel it offers enough for her, for the rest of her life.

I was also wondering about what we see Inara taking complete and unabashed joy in. I don't see it often - she has this core of reserve and even solemnity.

Disclaimer: this little reply window bedevils me. I find it very hard to go back and reread to see if I am being cogent. So if I am not, please forgive me.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

No, it's good. No problems.

I actually am perfectly fine with the sex worker thing, and so long as she's not getting herself hit and she's not being forced, I figure that's her business. I don't imagine she used to get many snide comments back in the core, and any case, she doesn't take any disrespect. I can admire the kind of strength that entails.

I went back and checked the Jaynestown script, no real hint of sadness underneath "hopes for glamourous (paid) romance." It could be more of a general thing, or maybe regrets come after the engagements. Not saying she should be ashamed, but if she is, it probably hits her when she doesn't have to be composed for anyone. She has remarkable control over her emotions and expressions.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I don't think Inara was regretful at all about Fess Higgins. I felt like he was a nice opposite to the young man we saw in the pilot. They even look similar, but while presumably the other man wasn't a virgin, it's Fess who has the emotional/psychological centeredness not to get hostile about whatever intimacy he revealed.

Maybe it's an aggregate effect. Surely Companions have to know that when they leave the worlds on which the Guild is most established, they are going to encounter a lack of respect and understanding. Maybe Inara, as she was determining to travel for her career, did imagine herself as an ambassador of sorts - interacting with others, showing, by her example, the entirety of what it means to be a Companion. Maybe the (sometimes) bad interactions are more wearisome and hurtful than she had anticipated (and in that way, she works as a mirror for Mal?)

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

She might not have been regretful because she was in the right place at the right time to stop the magistrate from arresting all the members of Serenity and hanging them. But emotionally, I wonder if beyond the healer effect and being momentarily useful if Inara really got anything for herself from Fess Higgins. Did she do another fake/modest orgasm thing? We'll never know, but both clients had probably about the same level of experience and insecurity, just expressed in different ways.

In the pilot episode, Inara was denied even the healer satisfaction, leaving her to wrestle with the insults she got from the kid and Mal, both of which lampshaded the sex for money.

Quote:

---

Maybe the (sometimes) bad interactions are more wearisome and hurtful than she had anticipated (and in that way, she works as a mirror for Mal?)

---

Could be.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Fess is like the exact opposite of the young man in the pilot, whose parting words are to the effect of "I bet your clocks are rigged to cheat us out of our time."
If I remember, he implied the plural--all clients, all companions.

Clearly much resentment at the time-is-money level there.

And then you have Fess, who didn't even hire her--with him, she does get to go through (presumably) her accustomed level of ritual, and also the counseling aspects (that big speech about standing up to his dad). Who knows if she was fufilled as a companion--it's possible she was somewhat gratified by Fess saying no to Boss Higgins the "pig".

But yeah, the not-hanged crew is a huge plus. The tradeoff for that seems to outweigh most other things. That's ALSO what she does, as a Companion, and it seems to be a particular specialty of Inara's personally--talking people into or out of things (mirror aspect again--?)

I'll be back with questions later on tonight. For now, just sayin' nihowdy.
__


Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

And the kid in the pilot was probably annoyed that Inara had declined his invitation to stay with him permanently. I'm pretty sure his comments about the clock follow right after that.

"Talking people into or out of," also interesting. With Mal, that can be kind of hit and miss with people who aren't under his command, but ultimately I don't think there's a person here who doesn't think Mal isn't charismatic.

The question becomes, are Inara's skills with suggestion and convincing people bound up in her companion status? I think there's a basis of skill there that she would be effective without her status, much like Mal and his captaincy, but her status lends her some authority as well.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

The kid in the pilot - I got the definite impression that once he'd gotten his clothes on, he started to reflect on how he'd been with Inara before - how open in his admiration of her, and in his offer to use his father's influence to get her to stay. And I think the memory of his untempered adoration was maybe a source of chagrin to him. That curt "very good," says volumes about what he's thinking about her, maybe about how orchestrated the scenario was.

As far as Fess Higgins, are we to assume that his father contacted Inara and did all of the initial communication? He's so baldly unpleasant! There are a couple of possibilities here: Magistrate Higgins used his money and influence to get his son a place in the Guild registry, and then Fess contacted Inara; Magistrate Higgins made the opening wave, and then Inara and Fess exchanged messages or something; or a lot in between. When Inara first meets the Magistrate, she asks who he is - "Magistrate Higgins, I presume?"; that makes me think she didn't have a wave conversation with him.

I thought the conversation between Fess and Inara was lovely, the difference between a boy and a man. He was reflective, but also listening to her; she was comfortable enough to kid him gently about their time together not being "entirely forgettable."

So, for her part, I would think Inara would have found this engagement to be professionally fulfilling. She's participating in a ritual with Fess, almost like a baptism - but also giving him an opportunity to reflect on what being an adult, a man, means.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

So if we assume that Fess and the first kid are the flip sides of the same engagement, and Inara came away from that one satisfied, what would it have taken for Inara to feel bad about the engagement? Were elements of that already present?

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
So if we assume that Fess and the first kid are the flip sides of the same engagement, and Inara came away from that one satisfied, what would it have taken for Inara to feel bad about the engagement? Were elements of that already present?

---

I'll get back to this, but I'm going to get really concrete here.

What things CAN we say that Inara dislikes about her job?

(always start with the cons, not just the petty ones...)

__

Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I see what you did there! But it's actually more like "bound five times but never convicted." Mal doesn't even have any war crimes in his record, despite pretty much being field promoted to commanding officer of the most brutal battle of the entire war.

Um, she doesn't seem to like it when she's considered the "possession" of whoever paid money at the time. Like Atherton, whose offer for her to stay kind of was similar to the first kid. I think she must get that a lot.

And she doesn't like it said or implied that she's a whore, or that the experience she offers is spiritually cheap, or that anything about it is money driven.

She doesn't like to be personally insulted.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

EDIT: No, nevermind, Inara came back pretty smug about convincing Fess to lift the landlock. But we didn't see her after that and I have no doubt the magistrate would have waved and happy feelings gone. So long as the subscriber in question (and I get the feeling that the Magistrate is the one who paid for the engagement) doesn't have a black mark with the guild, and being that Inara is so far from any Houses, she probably has to do her own customer service and handle complaints.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
EDIT: No, nevermind, Inara came back pretty smug about convincing Fess to lift the landlock. But we didn't see her after that and I have no doubt the magistrate would have waved and happy feelings gone. So long as the subscriber in question (and I get the feeling that the Magistrate is the one who paid for the engagement) doesn't have a black mark with the guild, and being that Inara is so far from any Houses, she probably has to do her own customer service and handle complaints.

---

What I'd like to know about Fess is if they spoke before the engagement(ie via wave). I don't think so, because unless her "Magistrate Higgins, I presume" is just to show that he is not a repeat, remembered client, she may not actually have seen either of them. Just followed the cue of the fancy clothes and big-man swagger?
But if Inara can hand out a black mark to Atherton Wing as a member of the Guild,(yes I know he didbreak a big rule), surely she can do it to a guy on a backwater moon, even it's owner.

I think she's probably backed up at distance, too. But the immediate complaints about her performance would go to her.
__


Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

She might have talked to Fess. I can't imagine it's safe to go to an engagement with just a potentially forged psychological profile and no visual confirmation. Dad paid for the subscription, with Fess as the benefactor/client.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

So I guess the determining factor in how someone imagines Inara might feel about her profession is based on how often Inara encounters the irritants/frustrations/depressing stuff I mentioned, and whether it's common enough that the behaviour is a regrettable but inherent part of the profession.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I think the determinative factor in how I imagine Inara relates to her profession is how Inara feels about herself.

If you're right, and Inara is a female mirror of Mal, then there has got to be a little self-loathing in her soul. Whether or not its related to her job, or a larger part of her personality, I don't know enough to say.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Mal's self loathing is all bound up in Serenity - the war and the people he lost, and now the ship he named after it as self-laceration and the crime he does with it.

I don't see Mal pre-and-during-Serenity Valley as particularly self-loathing. Though who knows? Maybe he's a cheerfully sinful self-loather. Maybe he had some kind of childhood trauma that really screwed him the hell up that his current PTSD built on. Maybe Ma Reynolds didn't hug him enough.

But anyway, from what we can see, those are the two main sources of his self-loathing. The Battle, and his Job.

So Inara might have the job side, but what could be the battle side? Maybe in her past, she's also had some deeply personal battle that she lost. Or maybe she's fighting that battle now, and hating herself for it. Hmm...

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

mal's got a real deep martyr streak, which to me suggests a measure of self-loathing. and i think we can relate his martyrdom his life before the war: dude is a volunteer, after all. but i agree that his self-loathing comes down to Serenity Valley and his job. or, more broadly, we could frame it as guilt. he's guilty to be alive, and his work makes him feel like a bad guy.

perhaps inara has a similar dynamic? not necessarily guilt over her job, though perhaps bound up to it? does she feel guilty to be alive, guilty to be in comfort, etc...

just curious: if she were fighting her battle now, what would it be?

also, i like the idea of mal and inara as mirrors, but i think it might ultimately be unfair to only frame "the her" through "the him."

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

We already kinda have to view Inara through Mal's POV anyway, why not go all the way? And there ARE little things that support the idea that Inara might not be completely happy, and from what I see, it's not the crew, it's not the ship, and it's not necessarily Mal.

And Mal and Inara have enough parallels that I think it justifies analyzing them this way.

Of course, it's also extremely speculative, but I like to think it's intriguing and that as a model for Inara, it could explain some of her behaviour and maybe that whole attraction thing we see.

Guilt to be alive or in comfort, it's an interesting idea. We know Inara supported unification, it could be she's having to come to terms with the suffering of the people on the Rim and blaming herself for supporting that.

And there's her secret, which could be construed as a battle, which she would hate herself for dragging the crew into it.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

One might think of her as a mirror but not as a perfect mirror - just as Simon and the Operative both function at times as mirrors for Mal, but not in every aspect. Simon, having to leave behind, and/or losing faith in the way of life he grew up with; and the Operative, going through that moment of being hollowed out. So maybe Inara's character reflects back some facets of Mal's character, his experiences and struggles, but not all of them. Because objectively, Inara might be seen to have so many advantages. She's educated, cultured, smart; she's poised and effective socially; she's beautiful and seems to be well-connected. Joss has said that Companions retire and go on to other prestigious professions, so I don't see her being made to stay in the Guild against her wishes. And really, in comparison with the problems of so many of the people in the 'verse, the idea that Inara's "problem" is that her job sometimes bums her out but she doesn't get herself exercised enough to look for another - it doesn't have the same weight. She's a clear-thinking and decisive character. I think whatever the cause is of her solemnity, it's much stickier and more personal than professional. Maybe part of her steadfastness in the face of hostility and provocation is that she's been through something much worse than, say, a threat by Atherton Wing and there is very little that can really scare or hurt her now.

It may well have been something related to the War.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

That's fair to say, and of course considering we don't know much I could definitely take my metaphor too far.

Technically, it seems to me like Mal had a lot of advantages - living on a ranch isn't easy, but it sounds like they had a BIG ranch, which suggests to me they were pretty well off. Plus the dancing and poetry. He downplays it though because it doesn't help him fit in to the life he has now, and the life he has now... pretty much lacks advantages.

I agree, I like the guild, and I don't like Inara being their little slave. I think making them evil from the get-go is a little unfair. Maybe there's a basis in reality, because in modern times sex trade rings aren't at all nice, fluffy, or respectable, but it kind of nice to see a version that tried to eliminate all the bad. If it's going to happen, I think the guild is how I'd like to see it happen.

Interesting you mention the war, Platonist told me once that Joss said that there were terrorist attacks on Sihnon early in the war.

Imagine Inara in a bombshelter, with a building partially collapsed on top of it. Oh! With injured little kids! Poor Inara. :(

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

beyond supporting unification (which also supplied Mal with one of his greatest lines "Don't suppose you're the only whore that did"), how personally invested was inara in the war? i have a hard time imagining it having any impact on her life. how much did it touch her? or is it only after her own personal crisis sends her off into the rim on board a seedy Firefly, that she understands what she was supporting? I wonder what it would be like to go from a glittering life on Sihnon to Mal's element, which is essentially, crap.

also, big neato...I really think the idea of indepdendent terrorist attacks has a lot of narrative promise. granted, i've always half-hoped that mal would just go off the deep end and start killing innocents. i sort of dislike inara, in that i see her as one of the few things preventing him from being blowing up innocents. well, that, and his well hidden decency.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

You're not the only one.

(tvtropes warning)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleDemon

Quote:

---

However, every so often a situation presents itself and he's just not willing to go the extra mile necessary to be completely evil. He'll topple your castle, but he'll do it right after everyone has cleared out first. He'll also be obsessed with explaining this behavior so people don't think he's gone soft.

---

Mal blurs between a jerk with a heart of gold (though further on the nice side than Jayne) and a noble demon (due to his tendency to make excuses for the good he does). He's also probably a Knight in Sour Armor and a Byronic Hero.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralityChain

Quote:

---

The Morality Chain is a character who is the reason another character is Good. Almost always a female love interest or a mother. As long as this person is alive; her target of affection will at the very least be a Noble Demon.

If a Morality Chain were to fall, commit betrayal or get seriously hurt or die, there is nothing to prevent a Face Heel Turn happening so fast and so hard that the unchained character is chopping up his former teammates with gusto before you can say "Neutral Evil". This is more than the Roaring Rampage Of Revenge; everyone has to suffer.

---

Anyone else here think that if Inara were to die, that Mal would have a pretty good chance of going completely axe-crazy out of grief? Hell, she just leaves for two months and he's about ready to shoot Simon and River and dump the bodies.

Maybe Mal isn't quite so extreme as this, but honestly it's hard to tell sometimes.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I think the war may have had some effect on her, but seeing the help that the Rim is BLATANTLY not getting that her precious Alliance promised probably is teaching her about her naivity. I think she may be regreting her support now, but she probably sees it more grey, that both sides really weren't good.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

So I went back and watched the two scenes(the pilot w/the young man, and Jaynestown with Fess) to contrast them...voila:

Pilot

The most notable communication to the audience I think takes place with Joss' ever-important camerawork--he's obsessed with it in the pilot, and mentions it constantly in the commentary.

The number of jump cuts and fuzzes in this is crazy. Even the things young-Alliance-man (can we call him Greycoat? needs a handle!) says are all incomplete. He interrupts himself constantly and trails off. Inara gets to say complete, but generic sentences. Suggestion of a scene, rather than continuous dialogue.

Implications of dialogue we do hear:
1. Inara found Sihnon constricting (for whatever reason)
2. The client seems to have an "everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it" attitude about the nature of a Companion's work. This is clearly shown to be a no-no.

Summary: This visit was a downer, for both of them. Quite awkward, because he apparently assumed he knew the rules and yet didn't play by them verbally. Meta-companioning. Oops. I would say her body language after he leaves is disappointed/cringing and trying to shake it off.


Jaynestown

1. Inara shows distaste(?) to Magistrate's "I only make the people I own use my title."

The idea of pompously owning people is kinda yucky to her?
She makes clear to Fess that she would come for him (because he's a good man and everything blah blah) but not for his father--we assume because Fess is not crude, domineering, meddlesome and arrogant.

2. the "Ritual"--"Our time together, it symbolizes something for your father". She also says it's important to her, but she emphasizes tea/ritual aspect to counteract his father's physical act emphasis?

I guess they "meet" in Fess, allowing for the plot device of not hanging the crew.


Summary: Stuff goes pretty well.
I'm thinking Inara is feeling like a pretty good mentorish person to Fess, and Fess is feeling very manly (I don't know whether to laugh or gag).

THEN Inara starts gushing to Fess about Mal. Whoa? Can anyone explain what happened there? Protocol? anybody? Lol.

__

Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Wasn't she really young though? I mean, I'm not sure how someone at that age, living in the Core, could have been affected by the war. Unless it's something to do with the terrorist attacks.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

According to Inara's DOB, she's 28 by the time of the series, assuming Joss doesn't have shenanigans going on with her age and Nandi and the guild cleverly playing cover-up. So she'd have been 21. I guess it depends on how badly officers from the war might come back messed up. She might have known people who were good friends who died. There was a draft, so it could have been a little like Vietnam here, where most everyone knew someone who went and who either died or came back changed. And who knows what "supporting unification" means for Inara? Maybe she actively found a way to help, like as a nurse or something, seeing that she does have some basic medical training.

Hmm, that could be a good basis of people who she might think she failed.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Good assessment, I pretty much agree, even about how kind of over-the-top Fess played his "I'm a man now!" thing.

Of course, by the same measure, in Jaynestown we don't have any Inara internal reaction cut-away shots like we do in the pilot. Maybe Fess didn't commit as big a faux-pas as first greycoat did (BTW, I think the greycoat was to suggest he was an Alliance naval cadet?), but it could be a number of things might have been wearisome for Inara that she never expressed.

And for someone she was supposed to care about, she sure was willing to use him for her own ends and get him in trouble. Sure, as far as we know it turned out okay, and she had a good reason for what she did, but considering her actions there I'm not sure she like him THAT much.

And a similar story with Sanda, the Alliance anti-terrorist special op, who she seems to like despite his worrisome mention of dustdevils, enough that she contacts him again. But during the engagement we know that Inara isn't thinking about him, enough that he notices and calls her on it, so she couldn't have liked him that much either.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

i suspect that when inara says she supported unification, she means that she's had carnal relations with lots, and lots and lots, of alliance officers.

the more i think about it, the less inclined i am to frame inara in the war, or put her in the context of her own personal war. that's mal's gig.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

originally by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

And a similar story with Sanda, the Alliance anti-terrorist special op, who she seems to like despite his worrisome mention of dustdevils, enough that she contacts him again. But during the engagement we know that Inara isn't thinking about him, enough that he notices and calls her on it, so she couldn't have liked him that much either.

---

The interesting thing is, he seems amused by it, or at least is fine with it. Professional distance? lol.


Originally by mincingbeast:

Quote:

---

i suspect that when inara says she supported unification, she means that she's had carnal relations with lots, and lots and lots, of alliance officers.

the more i think about it, the less inclined i am to frame inara in the war, or put her in the context of her own personal war. that's mal's gig.

---

Um, yes, agreed. I don't particularly see Inara going all Nightingale on the war effort. I think the only wars she's engaged in is one with herself and possibly some sneaky stuff in the Guild.
__

Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Well, but why would Joss Whedon SAY that there were terrorist attacks on Sihnon if they didn't somehow effect Inara?

The question is whether the impact for Inara was biological, chemical, or emotional, and whether it put any sort of hardship on her.

But not enough hardship that she really blames and hates the Independents. Or she's mature enough that she's let it go, mostly.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

There's just an awful lot we don't know about Inara. We don't know about the makeup of her family, her relationships with them, where they lived (I remember reading a story that treats her line about Sihnon, "I was born there," as highly symbolic), if they are still alive, what their socioeconomic/cultural status was - although Morena and Joss have referred to Companioning as a "family" business for Inara.

And we have only a bare outline about Training Houses, Companions-in-Training, and the Guild.

I keep thinking about all of these unknowns when I wonder about how the "devastating" War affected any of our characters, and I also think about one of the commonest descriptions of the American Civil War, that it pitted brother against brother.

And I always interpreted Inara having supported Independence as something much more prosaic than her client history - how well paid are military men, anyway? - something like her registered political affiliation and an absence of controversial remarks and behavior in her public life. I can imagine Inara chatting at a salon or other social function, acknowledging that the Independents bring up some valid points, but that a plan for Unification is most likely to bring the most good to the most people over the next several decades.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

In the context that Inara talks about supporting Unification, that makes sense. The Alliance is authoritarian, after all, I bet you could be "black-listed" or something if you speak out against current policy when it's already been decided.

I think the Serenity Blue Ray might specifically list her birthplace, and I THINK it was Sihnon. I'll double check. Interesting point, though, Sihnon could be where Inara made her debut, and if she took a trade name then you could say she was born there. It's also interesting considering there she can move in seemingly any social circle, and there are inconsistencies in Inara fitting in among the upper class at times, which might suggest she's not from Sihnon or rich. That's one we've talked about before, but not the "off-Sihnon" possibility.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I dunno what the big deal is. This seems oddly Puritanical, something she states outright that she is not. She is a full grown woman making a choice of livelihood. She provides a service and is well paid for it. Remember, she offers to pay, out of her ready cash, Mal and the crew to help Nandi. I doubt anyone else on the boat has that kind of scratch. Whether or not whoring is degrading seems to depend on who is in control and she is definately in control of her life. She makes good money, she is highly respected wherever she goes and she doesn't like complications...which is why she was leaving Serenity. Is there a bit of her that regrets not giving in to her feelings for Mal? Perhaps. But not enough to keep her there.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

This is always a fun conversation, one I'm always willing to jump back into.

Quote:

---

This seems oddly Puritanical

---

I agree with everything you have to say; there is nothing wrong with Inara's profession or her purpose in practicing it; she's a well-meaning person, and a girl's gotta stand on her own.

The thing about this conversation and the other one is I'm trying to test out the possibility that Inara's character is nuanced. She's one of the more mysterious characters, we don't know everything about her, we don't always know how she's feeling. It seems like she often says one thing but really means and feels another.

Example: she praises Sihnon as "an ocean of light" but seems to actually not have too fond memories of it. This could suggest she's not into all the glitter and glamour that high society goes wild about.

Example: She tells Mal she's not puritanical, congratulates him on finally getting laid, then cries about it when she's alone.

Conclusion: What she says is often not what she feels, but what she says is often what's necessary to cause the least amount of hurt.

Quote:

---

But not enough to keep her there.

---

And in the comic books when she's leaving, she secretly wants Mal to come back for her. Her choosing to leave, however, was the right thing to do at the time.

The point is, we all know what she has to say about her profession, and it makes sense for her to defend herself that way. Her profession isn't even BAD - Mal's done lots worse. The question I'm posing here: Is what Inara says about her profession the same as what she really FEELS about it?

As for sex, she doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about it, really, and I seem to recall that her response to Kaylee in Jaynestown about romance and having good sex is a little subdued.

There must be some reason why she stopped taking clients at the training house in the movie, and I don't believe it was about Mal. She made a choice because of some way she felt about something involved with her profession. What it means for Mal is entirely irrelevant.

This in turn suggests she might outright not LIKE the sex for money part of her profession, which is possibly why Mal's insults hurt her much worse than any others he might try, and why she gets so defensive about it.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

There must be some reason why she stopped taking clients at the training house in the movie, and I don't believe it was about Mal. She made a choice because of some way she felt about something involved with her profession. What it means for Mal is entirely irrelevant.

---

I agree with you inasmuch as I doubt Inara's new found celibacy is out of consideration for Mal's feelings, or brought about by his repeatedly stating the obvious: she is a glorified space whore. But I don't think it is sensible to entirely remove Inara's experience aboard Serenity, and her relationship with Mal, from her evolving relationship with her profession. At the very least, Mal was a catylyst.

Inara often seems abivalent about the sex-for-money aspects of her job, which to her mind must be a reductivist view of what a companion does.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Yeah. And it also occurs to me that not being happy with sex-for-money and sometimes jerk clients doesn't necessarily mean she wouldn't like the rest of her job, or be proud of the tradition she's part of.

Similarly, Mal might have his regrets about the people he's hurt, being a hired gun and a thief, and he has his "I'm a bad man" brooding complex. But he also takes pride and joy sometimes in being a mean old bastard and sticking it to the Feds.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

Example: She tells Mal she's not puritanical, congratulates him on finally getting laid, then cries about it when she's alone.

---

I took this to indicate not that she was upset with her profession but that she wanted the intimate relationship Mal had with Nandi (albeit briefly) but couldn't bring herself to give up any control over her own feelings in order to have it. Before she tells Mal she's decided to leave she speaks of being drawn to a strong personality (like Mal) and never wanting to leave...and that's why she had to leave. I think she is simply afraid of losing control, even though it is costing her what her heart wants most. Remember when she confronts Mal about not visiting places where she could ply her trade? She told him: You are not my lover, my father, my school mistress etc?" This is a woman with control issues.

Quote:

---

And in the comic books when she's leaving, she secretly wants Mal to come back for her.

---

I do need to get ahold of those! But, of course, she's pissed when Mal comes for her in the movie. She is also pissed when he tries to defend her honor in Shindig. In fact, she takes every opportunity to push Mal away.

Quote:

---

Is what Inara says about her profession the same as what she really FEELS about it?

---

I don't think her profession has much to do with her problem with Mal. She might be a hair stylist and have the same control issues with men. Granted, Mal doesn't respect her line of work but that didn't stop him from loving Nandi...and I think there was feeling there...which I think is what upset Inara. The difference is Nandi knew what she wanted (Mal) and went after it. She didn't have the same issues.

Quote:

---

As for sex, she doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about it...

---

Well, that would probably describe a lot of women! hahaha ...especially if it was their JOB! Who among us is always enthusiastic about our job? haha

Quote:

---

There must be some reason why she stopped taking clients at the training house...

---

Well, the sex bit is the dirty part of the job. Nandi said that Inara had had her sights set on high priestess. Inara, like women of any profession, wanted to move up the ladder.

Quote:

---

This in turn suggests she might outright not LIKE the sex for money part of her profession, which is possibly why Mal's insults hurt her much worse than any others he might try, and why she gets so defensive about it.

---

Oh, I suspect she likes the money well enough. Perhaps she's just tired of sex? I mean, if it's your job sex must get monotonous, lose the luster it has for Kaylee because she ain't getting enough! hahaha

Inara isn't some crack ho. She has money, respect, connections etc. She has more going for her than anyone else on that boat. If she wanted a different life she could have it, with or without Mal.

As far as her defensiveness. I am reminded of Banky, the comic book ink artist in Chasing Amy getting pissed when people referred to him as a "tracer." ;)

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

I took this to indicate not that she was upset with her profession

---

I wasn't using that as an example of how she's upset with her profession, but rather of how she sometimes says things she doesn't mean when she thinks it's for the best.

Quote:

---

This is a woman with control issues.

---

Umm... Think I have to disagree there. She's an entirely normal person who wants to live her life without interference and work for a living without being hassled.

The reason she left Serenity is something entirely different either from Mal sleeping with Nandi or feeling out of control. EDIT: looks like you found it. The basic gist is, Nandi's death and Mal's reaction struck a chord with her, and she had to leave after that.

Quote:

---

But, of course, she's pissed when Mal comes for her in the movie. She is also pissed when he tries to defend her honor in Shindig.

---

Actually, she's very alarmed in both cases, and worried he's going to be hurt or killed more than she's angry with him.

She clearly doesn't hold either of those times against him shortly afterward, when he survives; by that point she's just glad he's okay.

Quote:

---

In fact, she takes every opportunity to push Mal away.

---

She does do this, and it's actually related to the above point about not wanting Mal to get hurt.

Quote:

---

I don't think her profession has much to do with her problem with Mal.

---

Then we agree, because there wasn't much in my above post that has anything to do with Mal.

But aspects of her profession might have something to do with her switching over to teaching instead of actively taking clients.

Quote:

---

Granted, Mal doesn't respect her line of work but that didn't stop him from loving Nandi...and I think there was feeling there...

---

Nandi arguably companionized Mal. Gonna have to disagree.

Quote:

---

The difference is Nandi knew what she wanted (Mal) and went after it. She didn't have the same issues.

---

Disagree. Inara knows what she wants but faces some very big obstacles and doesn't want to put Mal through that.

Quote:

---

Oh, I suspect she likes the money well enough.

---

I doubt it. If she did, she'd be perfectly fine being Atherton's trophy companion who he beats up on now and then. She doesn't seem to be very rich or she wouldn't be worried about her work so much (though I'll agree she makes enough money to support herself and her lifestyle), and she also seems perfectly content with her impoverished surroundings, or hanging out in a dingy bar.

She also clearly left Sihnon for a reason. See again my previous point about Inara potentially not being particularly enamored with the glitter and glamor.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse here. We may have to agree to disagree, and that's OK. Everyone has different perspectives.

I'm left with the question: If she wants Mal why doesn't she have him? This question is especially pointed if, as you contend, she doesn't really like her profession. Why doesn't she give it up and be with Mal? What are these "big obstacles" she doesn't want to put Mal through?

As Nandi pointed out, Mal and Inara are very much alike. Both want to keep it simple and neither wants to give up any control of their own lives to make a relationship work. That's why it doesn't happen, even though they love each other.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Well, since I know you saw it on another thread, the big obstacle is that

Select to view spoiler:

---

she's dying.

---

It's true that Inara doesn't want to pursue a relationship with Mal, but I don't think it's because she's afraid she would lose control of her life if she did. That's pretty much already happened IMO and I think she's resigned herself to that.

Everything Nandi says is a mislead for the viewers because she doesn't know this either. Nandi is speculating about Inara's motivations to Mal and is probably, quite simply, wrong.

But fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, since I know you saw it on another thread, the big obstacle is that

Select to view spoiler:

---

she's dying.

---

---

Ahhhhhhh! NOW I get it! I'm really dense sometimes. Now I understand your position and think it's perfectly reasonable. God, I'm such a dummy.

What a freakin' tragedy! Goddamn Joss Whedon! Someone needs to break his fingers so he can't write and destroy more of his characters lives! He gives us these wonderful characters who we care about and then he slaughters them like some Gorram Reaver! ACK!! I am NOT pleased.

Thank you for putting Inara in a totally different light for me. Now I have great empathy for her and her situation. If Joss doesn't pull her through I'm gonna find him and burn his house down. ...no, not really. haha

I guess I come at this with baggage. I think with Inara I was still fighting with my ex-wife after 20-some years. Geesh!

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

No worries, I didn't realize about your ex-wife. And you know, it could still be a fear thing, like you were saying. :)

I just kinda like Inara, she's very nice to Kaylee and most of the crew except Mal, so I like to see her in a positive light. So that's usually the side I take.

But I get that some people see her a selfish or high-maintenance, and the beauty of Joss' writing is that there's lots of interpretations that can be right about all the characters. I mean, it would be pretty boring if Inara were just some perfect Mary Sue-ish poor broken dove, there's nothing wrong with someone thinking Inara has faults or flaws.

And it makes sense if someone is reminded of a relationship they've had by a character in the show, what you experienced is entirely valid insight.

I like to discuss things, I take in ideas, and I use them in my stories, with permission of course. :) This kind of discussion makes me wonder if my account making everyone involved in the sad situation blameless is too flattering to the characters.

As for Joss Whedon, there's maybe some good news. I've noticed he seems to be getting better about letting some of his couples find a little happiness. And I also think because Joss and Morena were so willing to leak the the reveal that there's a lot more to this than what's on the surface.

Select to view spoiler:

---

Plus, the specific term they used was "dying," not "going to die," and that could be significant. It could mean that she's currently dying, but might not necessarily die by the end of the story, or she might even be saved.

---

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
No worries, I didn't realize about your ex-wife...

Quote:

---

Well, we all see things through the prism of our own life experiences. It makes discussion interesting.

Quote:

---

I just kinda like Inara...

Quote:

---

I like her too, it's just this thing with Mal bugged me. I could understand Mal being shaped by his past but, until today, I didn't understand Inara. Now I'm just pissed at Joss. hahaha

Quote:

---

But I get that some people see her a selfish or high-maintenance...

Quote:

---

I'm not sure what to think anymore. I'm reminded of the last scene of Mal and Inara in the BDM. He imagines that she will be happy to get back to civilization and she replies that she's not sure. He responds with a smile: "Good answer." That's the first glimmer of hope I saw that they might actually get together. I could tolerate Joss giving her an illness as long as their together.

Quote:

---

...I use them in my stories...

Quote:

---

Do you have stories on here or elsewhere on the web? After all our discussions here I would be very interested in reading them.

Quote:

---

As for Joss Whedon, there's maybe some good news. I've noticed he seems to be getting better about letting some of his couples find a little happiness...

Quote:

---

God I hope so! Just let her live Joss! Please let her live! hahaha

Quote:

---

...she might even be saved.

---

From you keyboard to Joss' ear. hahaha

I just want for the Serenity crew what I want for everyone...contentment and a long, healthy, prosperous life. I don't mind a little drama along the way, a cliffhanger or two, but I want it to move in that direction, you know...Fantasy! ahaha

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

TOADSMOOTHY

Friday, December 17, 2010 1:57 PM

Quote:

---

...he kept interpreting Mal as actually MEANING when he calls Inara a whore, and thinking Mal is somehow sexist and misogynist.

And then he missed the "wait, what?! He just slept with a companion!" realization that totally reframes the entire Mal/Inara relationship problems about something beside Inara's profession and Mal being bossy and patriarchal...

---

Forgive my piggy-backing here.

I'm not saying that Nandi didn't seduce Mal but I don't think it took much. And why would she have seduced him except that she admired and wanted him? I think Mal and Nandi had a lot in common. As Mal told her:"You're my kind of stupid." I don't see Inara as being Mal's kind of (stubborn, reckless) stupid. Nandi is more laid back. She doesn't serve Mal tea but Sake. And, of course, she is very proud of her pistol collection. I don't think this stuff was an act. besides, she was hot! I think she was a very easy person for Mal to admire and fall for. If Nandi had lived, I wonder if just that fact would have caused problems for Mal and Inara, regardless of whether Nandi pursued it or not.

Actually I like Nandi more than Inara because she is so down to earth and approachable. About the only person Inara seems to bond with is Kaylee.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Nandi is a companion, it's stated outright in the episode. She is from the core. Her rim-world attitude is something she picked up, but it is not her original personality. She is not nearly as independent as her tough act would have you believe: the most rebellious thing she's ever done is destroy a dulcimer, and she requires the help of Inara, and a gun hand, to do what she can't herself.

Mal is saving her whorehouse from a bunch of thugs. Nandi kind of owes Mal for this. Nandi doesn't know Inara is compensating Mal for his effort. Nandi has sex with Mal.

...Seems pretty clear cut to me.

As for Inara and pistols, see Trash and holding Saffron at gun point. Inara may have a more polished veneer than Nandi or Mal, but I'd actually say all three of them aren't so very different. In fact, if Nandi lived, I actually think there would have been predominantly Nandi/Inara, and that there would have been some Mal/Inara on the side.

Quote:

---

About the only person Inara seems to bond with is Kaylee.

---

And Simon, and Zoe, and River, and Wash, and Book, and Mal, when she's not fighting with him.

People seem to forget the scenes she has with Simon, like in Out of Gas, or stopping to talk to Simon and Kaylee in Jaynestown before heading out, or her friendly banter with Wash over the coms in the pilot episode, or all the times Simon has Inara look after River, or her talking casually with Zoe in Trash about Mal's tendencies to get in women trouble, her offering Benediction to Book in the pilot and in other episodes talking with Book about life on the ship.

This idea that Inara doesn't get along with the crew is prevalent in the fandom. It makes Inara look like some stuck up bitch who stays in her shuttle and doesn't associate with them. But while the show doesn't particularly focus on her one on one scenes with the crew (and there are LOTS), it's heavily implied that she does mingle. I'd argue the only people she doesn't seem to get along with are Jayne, who she finds a little boorish, and Mal, but their relationship is complicated.

But then, people are also looking from the perspectives of their own experience and what they expect to see too, as you said before, so I must accept your interpretation as valid even though I don't agree with it.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Nandi is...not nearly as independent as her tough act would have you believe: the most rebellious thing she's ever done is destroy a dulcimer...

---

Well, at least according to her, her whorehouse was once in the control of a man who had the girls strung out. She makes it sound like she killed him ie. he no longer plays the dulcimer? And she seemed pretty handy with a rifle. If she was really a wimp she would have taken Mal's offer and skeedattled.

Quote:

---

Mal is saving her whorehouse from a bunch of thugs. Nandi kind of owes Mal for this. Nandi doesn't know Inara is compensating Mal for his effort. Nandi has sex with Mal.

...Seems pretty clear cut to me.

---

Sorry sister, I don't buy it. The look on her face in the morning as she looks at Mal sleeping indicates a lot more than satisfaction at paying a debt!

Quote:

---

...if Nandi lived, I actually think there would have been predominantly Nandi/Inara, and that there would have been some Mal/Inara on the side.

---

OK..."I'm goin' to my bunk." hahaha

Quote:

---

About the only person Inara seems to bond with is Kaylee.

---

OK. Perhaps I was unfair to Inara here. Didn't mean to hit a nerve.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Mal and Nandi, were the most contrived romantic pairing evar.


They were stupid together, letting their bravado for a fight and their self-serving egos get in the way of sound decision making, leaving Nandi dead and Mal without the woman he truly loves who is Inara. Nandi bragged too much about herself and her guns, Mal drank too much and pretended to care too much, their scenes together are almost purposely poorly written and clichéd ridden. I didn’t find their sex very erotic, it was almost painful, was Mal crying? And in the morning, I found their connection to be dropped and unfounded, the sex was done and over with, they really don’t have any true love for each other, complicated by Nandi realizing she spent the night with her good friend’s love, cause she wanted to, completing her pattern of acting impulsively, without thinking of the consequences. I think Mal and Nandi were both walking the line of feeling shame there, and that’s no way to start a healthy relationship.

And, to top it off, Inara looks more torn up at the funeral than Mal does. He looks like he can’t wait until it’s over with so he can talk to Inara about their feelings, and possibly get to finally boink the one he’s been waiting for.

How DOES someone go from a funeral for a woman he had sex with the night before to, so…I knew it…you were jealous before, weren't you? Nice one, Mal.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal and Nandi, were the most contrived romantic pairing evar....

How DOES someone go from a funeral for a woman he had sex with the night before to, so…I knew it…you were jealous before, weren't you? Nice one, Mal.

---

Mal and Nandi are only slightly more contrived than Mal and Inara. That a romantic pairing is contrived is part of its charm.

Mal and Nandi are, in many respects, a more logical match than Mal and Inara, or at least as logical. They're alike in decent ways (leadership, responsibility for others, refusal to follow others rules) and awful ways (selfish, impulsive, and the swaggering bravado you identified). Howevever, considering how horrible HoG was it is virtually impossible to give a shit about them.

Also, in response to your closing point, you are clearly not male, and also assuming that Mal thought that his "ifs and maybes" could possibly lead to boning down. While the image of Mal, with Nandi's dna drying on his tool, courting Inara is totally repugnant, give our captain the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he was just trying to make sense of recent events, and the painful tension between the two of them. Recall that he wasn't "asking her for anything."

Granted that this is exactly the kind of shit you say to someone when you are asking for something.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Granted that this is exactly the kind of shit you say to someone when you are asking for something.



LOL, I knew I could depend on you to provide me with a little amusement today.

Yeah, Mal's untimely ill-fated proposition of "now that we’ve clarified that you were jealous, let’s say we move out of the friend’s zone, but only if YOU really want to" smells like a load of crap.

And, of course I'm not male, and that's why when I heard it, I knew right away it was a load of crap.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

XD

MB, you always come through with the slightly horrifying shock humour. Also, ew. Also, XD

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Toadsmoothy: eek, sorry, wasn't trying to scare you off. Yeah, Mal/Inara shipper, like I said. I do try to take it easier on people, platonist will be a little bit tougher. :)

It's really okay if you like Mal/Nandi. Not everyone DOES see it as companionizing, it's just how I see it as.

Nandi was pushing and prompting even when Mal almost cuts and runs at one point, she struck me as pretty persistent, and hey, I'm a girl, but I don't think Mal is an example of "everyone wants to jump him," you know? If he was, he wouldn't always be talking about how long it's been. So I guess I just assumed Nandi had an ulterior motive because she has nothing to gain sleeping with Mal and a lot to lose.

But, about the guy who was running the whorehouse before, maybe. I've never quite bought it was Nandi who killed him, He probably would've been the first guy Nandi EVER killed, and it's weird that she would be so cavalier about it in that case. Really, I think the guy ended up dying of a heartattack or something, and Nandi just decided to take credit for it. but that's spec and I can't prove it. :) Your interpretation there is probably more canon.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal and Nandi, were the most contrived romantic pairing evar.


They were stupid together, letting their bravado for a fight and their self-serving egos get in the way of sound decision making, leaving Nandi dead and Mal without the woman he truly loves who is Inara. Nandi bragged too much about herself and her guns, Mal drank too much and pretended to care too much, their scenes together are almost purposely poorly written and clichéd ridden. I didn’t find their sex very erotic, it was almost painful, was Mal crying? And in the morning, I found their connection to be dropped and unfounded, the sex was done and over with, they really don’t have any true love for each other, complicated by Nandi realizing she spent the night with her good friend’s love, cause she wanted to, completing her pattern of acting impulsively, without thinking of the consequences. I think Mal and Nandi were both walking the line of feeling shame there, and that’s no way to start a healthy relationship.

And, to top it off, Inara looks more torn up at the funeral than Mal does. He looks like he can’t wait until it’s over with so he can talk to Inara about their feelings, and possibly get to finally boink the one he’s been waiting for.

How DOES someone go from a funeral for a woman he had sex with the night before to, so…I knew it…you were jealous before, weren't you? Nice one, Mal.

---

Platonist, where you been all my life?



Well, I'm all outta words now. You took em out.

But I'm mouthy so I'll try anyway.

I don't toe ship lines myself, but really, I think Mal DID mean two things by "My kinda stupid", Toadsmoothy:

I always saw Mal sleeping with Nandi as both of them saying "because we can, because we're here"--because she can seduce him, because he can get fuzzy and inebriated, because both of them seemed almost defiant about it all, about their lives even. Like teenagers out past curfew. I think both of them are very tired of hearing no and other disparaging words, and, on the verge of possibly losing everything, are in a smaller version of "Hell, I'm gonna live!" (Thanks Kaylee, thanks ever so much).

Throughout his screentime Mal holds himself back in so many ways and then it's like he overcompensates every once in a while with something very dramatic, and usually stupid.


EDIT: Just read the rest. So is this going to go the full loop again into whether Mal/Inara is even feasible?

Because we know that war has already been fought. So what's life like right now on the Good Ship Canon? I try to stay out of the wars of attrition.

Two cents: Both are contrived (not necessarily equally) but you could see 'em, if there was a lot of Jossian rain-dancing. Nandi and Mal under the best of circumstances would be highly explosive though. Think Inara's patience and self-control would serve them well there.


EDIT-EDIT: So MB, what DO men say/believe in that situation?



--

Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Sorry, I was trying to behave, not shock Mr. Toad, whom I would like to stick around so that we may discuss Bonazana. I've spent years speculating on what Hoss' mouth tastes like, and I would like someone to share it with. Someone anonymous.

Until Platonist, whom I despise, emphasized the uncomfortable context of Mal's notorious "ifs and maybes" speech I took it for granted he was being romantic and brave. It never really occured to me that he was open to a charge of being gross. But this is a delight, because I like Mal at his vilest.

So if the context of Mal's feeble gesture at honesty with Inara was "I fornicated with your dead friend, whom the worms have only recently begun to defile, and this hurt you. Can we fornicate now, maybe?" I am delighted. In fact, this adds new dimensions to the fact that Inara cried and left. Rad. Cry moar.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Well, that’s one way to look at it, but their love scene is so lacking, usually I'll pause and retread over a good sexy one a few times, ponder if I could ever be so lucky to find myself in such a position, literally sometimes;) but theirs, I skip over, I guess what it lacks, is passion, something I would expect from two supposing passionate people. They just fail to impress me with their wanting.

Another thing that bothers me is Mal leaving the bedroom, it’s like he’s escaping, he’s not even completely dressed, and he shuts the door quietly so she doesn’t wake, like he’s had his quota of intimacy for the week. And then when they see each other again, they don’t embrace or kiss. After she confronts him with, “not the whole truth”, he orders her to the window next to him to shoot people, with her rifle, without a worry that she could get shot. Oh, where did their love go?

It’s a harsh assessment, and I know it’s not meant to be the love of the ages; Mal and Nandi have a momentary connection with each other. More than anything, though, I view it as Nandi was horny and hot for the Captain who comes to her aide, Mal was drunk, horny and it had been a while.

Favorite line of Mal's:

“It takes more’n than a few drinks to render my judgment blurry”


Mal, stop.talking.now.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Toadsmoothy: eek, sorry, wasn't trying to scare you off. Yeah, Mal/Inara shipper, like I said. I do try to take it easier on people, platonist will be a little bit tougher. :)...

---

Everyone has their opinions. Mine are probably not that well informed and have more to do with my own psychoses than any kind of objective interpretation of the material. One thing I'm not going to do is get into a spitting match over a t.v. show. Firstly, I can't compete with people on here; secondly, I have no interest in trying.

I love the Whedon/Fox version of Firefly and most aspects of the movie, as I interpreted them. I am interested in others' interpretations but I'm not going to let certain ones ruin my enjoyment of this material. Such opportunities for enjoyment come too few and far between in this life.

My thoughts on and feelings about Firefly/Serenity have become an embarrassment to me here. So, I plan to just lurk for awhile.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Aw. We get heated, but I'm sure no one thinks your ideas are shameful. There's lots of people who like both Jayne/Kaylee and Mal/Nandi and also lots of people who really hope Joss doesn't kill off his characters, or even who wish he'll somehow bring Book and Wash back.

But you do what you have to to feel comfortable too. I have to disappear for a while myself now and then.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aw. We get heated, but I'm sure no one thinks your ideas are shameful. There's lots of people who like both Jayne/Kaylee and Mal/Nandi...

---

I don't see the point of drawing up battle lines at all. I don't feel the need to bicker over fictional characters. I like all of these characters to varying degrees and can see a variety of scenarios playing out. I see these characters as essentially good people doing the best they can under trying circumstances.

Some think our Captain Mal is a selfish, lecherous hump, and use "Heart of Gold" as some kind of proof. They have every right to that opinion but I don't find anything in the dialogue or the emotions the actors portrayed to indicate this. If he were that sort of person the crew wouldn't follow him.

I don't hate either Inara or Nandi. Love triangles do happen and that doesn't mean the people in them are bad people, it means they're human. Besides, there was no words of commitment between Inara and Mal. People want to ascribe all manner of unseemly motives to these characters and I just don't see it. I take Mal and Nandi to pretty much mean what they say and if they made a mistake, I'm willing to cut them some slack. Of course, I'm just a fan not a literary critic.

Nothing I could say on this site would convince anyone of anything, so I've probably just wasted ten minutes of my life.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm sorry. And you've got a point about the shipping battles. We even joke about it.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Just want to be clear, Toadsmoothy. Dong ma?

The reason we're all on here, even MB with incisive and...scary...humor xD is that we find these characters awesome and hilarious. And we enjoy sharing our opinions and sometimes doing a little convincing to boot.

I really think nobody needs to get bothered-- either embarrassed or angry, because frankly, only the writers/actors would have the 'right' answer about interpreting the characters, and even if they did, it might come across different to viewers anyway.

A lot of this "proof" can be used in different contexts. I don't personally think Mal is a lecherous hump, but he is impulsive and it comes out in lecherous humpishness sometimes (depending on your view). Huzzah we're looking at a multifaceted character, of which there aren't many on tv.

So chill out and argue with all your geese on the table. Or sit back and watch the circus. But please, there's no need to cringe. Ain't nobody brought out the knives yet.

---



Going for a ride.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
...Another thing that bothers me is Mal leaving the bedroom, it’s like he’s escaping, he’s not even completely dressed, and he shuts the door quietly so she doesn’t wake, like he’s had his quota of intimacy for the week.

---

Just to correct you on this point. In the morning Nandi awakens first and looks over at Mal while HE is still asleep. If he was rushing out while still dressing it might be because he had a big fight coming up. And I never got the impression she would be hiding in the cellar while the fight was going on. Neither did Mal order Nandi anywhere but suggested she join him in an upstairs position. And while they didn't cling on one another in the morning I feel that would have been out of character for both of them. That being said, they did exchange several meaningful glances. Of course, if you take a moralistic view of their behavior the night before you might have missed or misinterpreted these things.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
...So chill out and argue with all your geese on the table. Or sit back and watch the circus. But please, there's no need to cringe. Ain't nobody brought out the knives yet.

---

Well, as I said up front, this is my first message board experience and I've only been here a few days, so maybe I'm just not used to this kind of thing.

I'm not convinced to your point of view re. Heart of Gold. As Inara indicated when she ran into Mal in the hallway, he and Nandi did nothing wrong. Which makes me think you have some moralistic axe to grind that even Inara herself rejected. Of course some people discount what the characters themselves say and go off on tangents totally alien to the script and the milieu of the 'Verse.

There. A goose or two on the table.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
...complicated by Nandi realizing she spent the night with her good friend’s love, cause she wanted to, completing her pattern of acting impulsively, without thinking of the consequences. I think Mal and Nandi were both walking the line of feeling shame there...

---

Boo hoo, poor Inara! I'm sorry but I ain't buyin' it. If Inara had wanted Mal she could have had him long before. It's obvious Mal has a weakness for Companions (Saffron and Nandi). Surely the quintessential Companion could have worn down his defenses in short order. But all she could find to do is repeatedly insult him and hold him at arms length. So he boinked Nandi. What's the big deal? When she met Mal in the hallway the morning after Inara herself said she didn't have a problem with it, that sex for her didn't carry moralistic overtones. So why do you and others here have such a problem? So, they had sex, who gives a shit? So, Inara was bawling afterwards. Who knows why? Maybe the ship's surgery ran out of Midol. I like Mal. I like Nandi. I like Inara. If Inara was sorry that Nandi beat her to the punch with Mal she only has herself to blame for that. She's a big girl. She can handle it.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
...I am delighted. In fact, this adds new dimensions to the fact that Inara cried and left...

---

Yeah, well. I'm happy you're delighted. Whatever trips your trigger chief.

As far as Hoss' mouth, I would imagine it tastes like long since rotted flesh seeing as how Dan Blocker has been dead quite a few years now. Perhaps necrophilia also delights you. I will pass however.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Yeah, well. I'm happy you're delighted. Whatever trips your trigger chief.

As far as Hoss' mouth, I would imagine it tastes like long since rotted flesh seeing as how Dan Blocker has been dead quite a few years now. Perhaps necrophilia also delights you. I will pass however.

---

XD We have another good one! MBs humour is just as sharp though, keep on your toes!

As for me, I like all three of the characters myself, which you kinda saw when I suggested the relationship might go in a three-way direction more than anything else.

For me, it's not a moralistic thing, it's just the thought that Nandi was repaying Mal for helping her seems inescapable to me. This kind of thing happens, of course, so what they did doesn't bother me so much as I'm not sure Mal realized, which makes the exchange somewhat false.

Of course, it's not Nandi's fault if Mal is dense, either, so I don't hold any of them at fault. I just don't see the night of passion they had as any more than what it is: just one night.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

For me, it's not a moralistic thing, it's just the thought that Nandi was repaying Mal for helping her seems inescapable to me. This kind of thing happens, of course, so what they did doesn't bother me so much as I'm not sure Mal realized, which makes the exchange somewhat false...

---

I suppose one could read that into it. I think they are saying and doing what they mean.

Nandi tells Inara: "Payment won't be a problem." Of course the type pf payment isn't specified. But, CASH payment (as opposed to sex payment) seems to be an option when she says to Mal:"I expected a whole lot more of you to be taking payment in our trade"...which seems to mean cash payment was an option for those who would choose it. And Mal explains to her why everyone but Jayne isn't taking sex as payment.

Inara also promises Mal (cash) payment: "You'll be compensated...I've put a little (money) aside...you will be paid. I feel it's important we keep OUR'S strictly a business arrangement." Of course we see here Inara once again holding Mal at arm's length. But, Mal rejects this:"You can keep your money, we won't be needin' no payment." Does he mean here that he intends to do the job entirely pro bono?

I guess there is room for differing opinions all over the place here.

But, I don't think Nandi had sex with Mal as payment for services about to be rendered. I don't think she is just telling Mal what he might want to hear when she says to him:

"I've been waiting for you to kiss me since I showed you my guns...I WANT you to bed me."

I assume that she means what she is saying. I also believe she was being truthful when, in the morning, she tells Inara that she didn't realize that she (Inara) was in love with him. Therefore Nandi can hardly be held culpable for hurting Inara's feelings. "I have shot mine arrow o'er the house and hurt my brother."

Now Nandi is displeased that Mal didn't tell her how Inara felt about him. But, how can Mal be certain that Inara loves him? She repeatedly pushes him away and treats him like dirt. What, is Mal suppose to never have sex for the rest of his life but just wait around for Inara to thaw out?! My opinion is that Inara is responsible for this whole debacle. If she wants a relationship with Mal, it's time for her to shit or get off the pot.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm confused, are you saying Nandi and Mal ARE about sex and lust, and Mal and Inara are about complex deep feelings, such as love?

Cause that's what I thought, too.

I like all these characters; I just see them as deeply flawed as intended.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

"I expected a whole lot more of you to be taking payment in our trade"...which seems to mean cash payment was an option for those who would choose it. And Mal explains to her why everyone but Jayne isn't taking sex as payment.

---

The prostitutes trade is prostitution, taking payment in trade from prostitutes would be sex in lieu of money. So actually, she was asking why Mal wasn't acting like Jayne was acting, asks if he's sly, then offers him her boys as an alternative. I don't see her offering cash as an alternative at any point here.

And then she asks him about Inara.

This is when she realizes for certain that Mal has feelings for Inara. Inexplicably, despite her training, she then believes Inara has no feelings for Mal, which is actually a plothole in the episode because even people with no companion-like training are often able to see what's going on right away.

In any case, what Nandi does is to use her companion skills to try to help Mal get over Inara in compensation for him saving her people and the house.

It doesn't work, and when Nandi sees Inara the next morning, she realizes just how badly she accidentally screwed things up.

Now, okay, I'll give you that clearly Nandi enjoyed herself, either because, despite months or even years of no activity, Mal is pretty good, or because she's satisfied she's helped him, or both. But I also posit this is no different than when Inara is pleased with one of her clients (Fess Higgins, perhaps?), or the way Helen, the prostitute Jayne takes to, seems pleased with HIM. That's not an act, I imagine some prostitutes actually do enjoy some of their time with their John. But I also don't think it's necessarily an indication of a deep, meaningful, or long-term relationship. Nandi knew Mal would leave if they survived the coming fight, and she accepted it, and then we see Mal try to sneak out of Nandi's room in the morning.

Also, in regards to the above, just because I think Nandi is putting on a tough act in order to function as the brothel madam, I don't think any less of her. When Inara was putting on a tough act holding Saffron at gun point in Trash, when all of us know there's no way she would ever pull the trigger, it was very cool, and upped respect for her. Nandi develops a willingness to pull the trigger, either with the former brothel owner, or to fight to keep it here, but I see her as doing something similar, only long term.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Now Nandi is displeased that Mal didn't tell her how Inara felt about him.



Nandi knows whatever she thought she had with Mal is over with at this point, because as soon as Mal hears that Inara has feelings for him, it's like Nandi… who?

I know you want to admire these characters, Toad, but I think you want to make more of the Mal/Nandi liaison than there is, they may be more similar in some ways, but Joss likes to explore opposite, but complimentary pairings such as Mal and Inara. It’s just more interesting for romantic storytelling and keeps the viewer engaged longer trying to figure out with the hell is going on between them, see the BDM if you haven't already.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
I'm confused, are you saying Nandi and Mal ARE about sex and lust, and Mal and Inara are about complex deep feelings, such as love?...

---

I don't know what Inara is about. If she's in love with Mal she has a piss-poor way of showing it. Of course the same can be said of Mal. Life is too short for such adolescent games. If you're in love with someone you let them know. If they reciprocate you're golden, if they don't you move on. You don't tell someone they're only a business arrangement and then get all upset when they bed someone else. And I don't buy that she is sparing his feelings because she's dying. That's not the way a mature adult handles life. She should say:"Mal, I have feelings for you but I don't think we should get intimate because I'm dying." Don't feminists understand maturity and honesty? C'mon.

As far as the night of sex between Mal and Nandi, who knows how deep their feelings went? And if it was only a night of lust, that doesn't mean they couldn't like one another. It wouldn't be the first time friends had sex knowing it would go no further. If Inara weren't in the picture Mal and Nandi could have been fuck-buddies. Nuthin' wrong with that. If Inara was an adult and truly didn't want a relationship but loved Mal and wanted his happiness she should have NOT caused a problem by getting upset. Of course it's moot because Nandi was killed.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

...The prostitutes trade is prostitution, taking payment in trade from prostitutes would be sex in lieu of money. So actually, she was asking why Mal wasn't acting like Jayne was acting, asks if he's sly, then offers him her boys as an alternative. I don't see her offering cash as an alternative at any point here.

---

If she doesn't intend to pay in cash does she expect her girls to sex-up Book? Simon? Wash? Zoe? and the rest of the crew? Nonsense! Clearly cash payments are on the table for those that choose that alternative.

Quote:

---

In any case, what Nandi does is to use her companion skills to try to help Mal get over Inara in compensation for him saving her people and the house.

---

That's a huge leap in logic that I don't see any support for in the script. Of course you have the right to invent any edits to the script you want as long as we're clear they are your version of events.

Quote:

---

It doesn't work, and when Nandi sees Inara the next morning, she realizes just how badly she accidentally screwed things up.

---

Screwed what up exactly? A contentious relationship that consists only of trading insults and giving each other the cold shoulder? Oh! Say it isn't so! hahaha If I were Mal I would have walked away from Inara long ago! She's nice in some ways but where Mal is conserned, she's a total pain in the ass! She isn't worth the frustration! Both Mal and Inara need to grow up and get on with their lives.

Quote:

---

Now, okay, I'll give you that clearly Nandi enjoyed herself, either because, despite months or even years of no activity, Mal is pretty good, or because she's satisfied she's helped him, or both.

---

What makes you think Nandi doesn't get her share of sex? Where is that in the script? You're just making stuff up out of thin air. If I walked into that whorehouse, Nandi would be my first pick!

Quote:

---

..I imagine some prostitutes actually do enjoy some of their time with their John. But I also don't think it's necessarily an indication of a deep, meaningful, or long-term relationship.

---

So? Some hot, meaningless sex ain't a bad thing! Just ask Kaylee! hahaha Or maybe they actually liked each other, which is what the say in the script, and they would have been friends for life. We will never know because Nandi is dead.

As far as the rest of it, the script doesn't indicate that Nandi is anything other than a tough broad, before this episode and during it. She only asked Inara and through her, Mal to help in this particular fight because she knew she couldn't take on the whole town alone and hope to survive.

Why are you so desperate to judge this one night of sex? Why do you need to load it with unseemly intentions?

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Platonist:
...Nandi knows whatever she thought she had with Mal is over with at this point, because as soon as Mal hears that Inara has feelings for him, it's like Nandi… who?...

---

I disagree. First of all, the fighting starts soon after so there isn't a lot of time for soul searching. But, if you watch the episode, on the balcony before they start firing, there is a smile and significant glance that passes between Mal and Nandi. Later, while talking to Inara on the ship Mal expresses remorse because he feels he failed Nandi because she was killed and tells Inara that nothing would dissuade him from that conviction. Now that is anything but a "Nandi..who?" dismissal. Mal clearly has feelings for Nandi, even while he is trying to express feelings for Inara, and he admits as much to her.

Now, some people here rush to cast unfounded aspersions on this heart to heart between Mal and Inara but apparently these people think it impossible for a good person to have feelings for two people at the same time. I'm here to tell you, it happens. Human relationships, even between good people, are seldom so tidy as some want them to be.

Quote:

---

...I know you want to admire these characters, Toad, but I think you want to make more of the Mal/Nandi liaison than there is...

---

I'm simply saying they regard each other exactly the way they say they do in the script for chrissakes!!! I'm not the one clambering out on a limb here! And I can't for the life of me understand why so many here attack the moral character of Mal and Nandi for having a night of sex. Are there a lot of fundamentalist Christians on this site? If Mal had to wait around for Inara he might as well resign himself to becoming a monk in Book's abbey. The people all hung up on the Mal x Inara thing, well, it's like Mal's take on faith: "It's a long wait for a train that don't come."

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Um, okay, wow. Maybe it's just the others rubbing off on you, because they're being a lot harder than I am, but you're getting pretty belligerent with me here. Let's go back to that "it's just a show and we don't have to make battlelines" thing.

Quote:

---

If she doesn't intend to pay in cash does she expect her girls to sex-up Book? Simon? Wash? Zoe? and the rest of the crew?

---

Her exact quote:

"Truth is, I expected a whole lot more
of you to be taking payment in our
trade."

So yes. I think she did.

Quote:

---

That's a huge leap in logic that I don't see any support for in the script. Of course you have the right to invent any edits to the script you want as long as we're clear they are your version of events.

---

This is you starting to get insulting. I don't know if you saw the exchange in the Operative thread, but don't call me irrational. Please. I have very good reasons for all of my assertions.

Quote:

---

Screwed what up exactly? A contentious relationship that consists only of trading insults and giving each other the cold shoulder?

---

Both Mal and Inara got hurt. I said nothing about Nandi screwing up their relationship, but Nandi clearly REGRETS the HURT she accidentally brought to both of them.

If the relationship was nothing more than trading insults and giving each other the cold shoulder, I contend that it wouldn't have hurt, as it obviously did.

I also think you've neglected to observe the times where it's depicted they DO get along. I recommend the beginning and end of Shindig to you, the celebration in the opening of Our Mrs. Reynolds, the little smiles they exchange with each other during the dinner party in Out of Gas, the way they pal around on the space station at the start of The Message.

We only SEE the times when they're fighting because that makes good tv drama. But there's plenty to imply they both get more out of the relationship than the occasional fights.

As I said before, we are all entitled to our own interpretations, and yours is valid. But I haven't put down your assertions as illogical or unsupported by the script. So do please extend me the same courtesy.

Quote:

---

What makes you think Nandi doesn't get her share of sex? Where is that in the script? You're just making stuff up out of thin air.

---

YOU are making up things I never said. What I said was that Nandi was SATSIFIED by Mal. Does that imply that I think she didn't get her share of sex? In fact, Mal and Nandi were directly contrasted with Chari and Burgess and his forcing her to give him fellatio.

Quote:

---

Why are you so desperate to judge this one night of sex? Why do you need to load it with unseemly intentions?

---

Why do you need to assign intentions to my arguments? I believe I'm the best judge of what I am saying and what I think. Not. You.

I'm not going to be around the board for two weeks. I believe this may be for the best.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

I'm simply saying they regard each other exactly the way they say they do in the script for chrissakes!!! I'm not the one clambering out on a limb here!

---

What you are being is quite rude.

There is a lot of subtext in the script. It's there if you care to look for it. If you don't, it's no skin off my nose. Believe what you like. But don't insult us. The four of us haven't come up with this idea from out of nowhere, and as ever, the show is open to interpretation.

Quote:

---

And I can't for the life of me understand why so many here attack the moral character of Mal and Nandi for having a night of sex. Are there a lot of fundamentalist Christians on this site?

---

Yes, we're fundamentalists around here, who much prefer an actual practicing sex worker in a pairing to a reformed sex worker who has, judging from her funeral, found Christianity herself.

Your conflating us to having some sort of prudishness against sex and the sex worker profession is unfair and misrepresentative.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

EDIT: No, I'm going to stay out of this now. If I get involved, I'm just going to get angrier. And in the past that has been seriously bad for my health.

A break will be good.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Um, okay, wow. Maybe it's just the others rubbing off on you, because they're being a lot harder than I am, but you're getting pretty belligerent with me here.

---

I apologize if I was belligerent and insulting. I think you're right. I came on here wanting to talk about nice things like Kaylee. I feel like I've crossed over to the dark side on this thread. Someone above told me to argue with all my "geese on the table" (still trying to figure out what that means) so I decided to throw those geese down hard. But, I didn't mean to make you unhappy. I hope you can forgive my rude behavior. I also hope you stick around as long as you can before you have to leave. I'll make a mental note not to be an asshole...at least not to you. :)

Toady

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm also sorry. I really started to get angry later on there. I tend to get really hot tempered a lot lately, it's stress.

Do stay, and talk about Kaylee. It was wrong for me to try to convince Inara is a better person than you think she is, because you are entitled to that after what you went through.

There is little I can do about staying around right now though. But if you want to, you'll hear from me again after the new year.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

...You're blaming her for DYING now?

---

umm No. I'm blaming her for not being open and honest with the man she supposedly loves. That's what mature, considerate people do in love relationships.

Quote:

---

Oh, that's very nice. Thank you.

---

OK. That was a cheap shot. I'm sorry for that. But, it wasn't addressed specifically at you but those seem to heap most of the blame on Mal, some of the blame on Nandi and none of the blame on Inara. I was frustrated.

Quote:

---

She shouldn't have caused a PROBLEM by getting upset? Right! Because Mal and Nandi sleeping together is HER fault, not a choice the other two made as adults, which later both regretted because they both care about Inara and didn't mean for her to get hurt.

---

Well, what does Inara want? for Mal to be her celibate whipping-boy for the remainder of her short life? Where's the love and caring in that?
If she doesn't want an honest, open, sexual, ie. mature relationship with Mal she should set him free to find happiness elsewhere.

Quote:

---

...I'm sorry, man, considering the very negative way you view Inara, whatever happened between you and your ex was clearly ugly, I can't blame you. But don't take it out on us because we LIKE Inara.

---

haha Well, my ex was a pain in the ass 'tis true, but I don't think that has undue bearing on the points I'm trying to make here.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I editted out this previous post because I thought it would pour more fuel on the fire. I'm sorry that you had to read it, it was written in anger. You are right, and I shouldn't have brought your ex into it.

A point I made previously, but lost, was this:

Quote:

---

If she doesn't want an honest, open, sexual, ie. mature relationship with Mal she should set him free to find happiness elsewhere.

---

I believe this is what she was trying to do when she decided to leave. But breaking off like that, it's never a clean cut, and part of her wants to stay still.

It's not her fault she was dragged back in the movie, but after everything was all over, and Mal seemed to be glad to have her around, she is very tempted to stay, and possibly tempted to be honest with him. Or at least that's how I see the movie.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

...I believe this is what she was trying to do when she decided to leave. But breaking off like that, it's never a clean cut, and part of her wants to stay still.

It's not her fault she was dragged back in the movie, but after everything was all over, and Mal seemed to be glad to have her around, she is very tempted to stay, and possibly tempted to be honest with him. Or at least that's how I see the movie.

---

I agree with you and the ending of the movie made me hopeful for them as well. I think they both have been very immature with each other and it has caused a lot of unpleasantness and hurt feelings..not only between their characters but on this thread. haha

One of them needs to look the other in the eyes and say: "I love you." Hopefully then the other will say: "I love you too." Then Inara must tell Mal that she is dying and Mal needs to tell Inara: "I will be with you no matter what, to the bitter end." Then they kiss, the credits roll, end of the BDM2. :)

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

...Mal clearly has feelings for Nandi, even while he is trying to express feelings for Inara, and he admits as much to her.



It's worse than I thought, because we all know it makes a gal feel special when a man expresses feelings for you AND your dead friend simultaneously. There's a certain profound authenticity in a sentiment like that, very believable.

No wonder Inara left…well that, and because even with all of Mal’s shortcomings she still loves him enough to spare him the pain and guilt of watching her die and not being able to save her. She sets him free, at your request, to fly the friendly skis of sexing women with Jayne, undeterred by space clap.

Cause that’s exactly what Mal is thinking while he’s lamenting over her vid in the BDM, Inara must know other Companions who I can bed…maybe she can hook me up, I’m feeling rather sentimental;)

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

...It's worse than I thought, because we all know it makes a gal feel special when a man expresses feelings for you AND your dead friend simultaneously. There's a certain profound authenticity in a sentiment like that, very believable.

No wonder Inara left…well that, and because even with all of Mal’s shortcomings she still loves him enough to spare him the pain and guilt of watching her die and not being able to save her. She sets him free, at your request, to fly the friendly skis of sexing women with Jayne, undeterred by space clap.

Cause that’s exactly what Mal is thinking while he’s lamenting over her vid in the BDM, Inara must know other Companions who I can bed…maybe she can hook me up, I’m feeling rather sentimental;)

---

Well, such an ugly interpretation doesn't merit a response. Perhaps you simply haven't experienced enough of life and love to know that it can't be summed up by romantic greeting card notions. I hope you do. It might broaden your perspective and foster compassion for human beings and their frailties.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

I'm sure all the women you've ever known and had compassion for, love you as much as
much as you love yourself Toad, cause that’s what women really need, is to feel validated and loved from a sap like you.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Hesitantly wading in:

I always thought Mal and Nandi were two peas out of the same pod, and there is mutual admiration and respect between them. Both have left their original homes for whatever reasons; both have created symbolic families with their respective crews/employees. There might be arguments within their "families", but god help anyone who tries to harm them or theirs. They are both stubborn and will stand their ground, even though a more prudent person might turn and run.

In addition, there is the added attraction for him that if they both survive the next day, she will make no claim on him or complicate his life any further (unless he wants her to).

I've heard those in the sex trade industry say that to some extent, clients are not paying for a night of companionship as much as they are paying for that companionship to go away the next morning. Now I don't think that Mal sees his night with Nandi payment for his services, as much as she is an equal that he can let his guard down with for one night who will make no further claims on him the next day. Not to mention that she talks like a woman and shoots like a man. If they manage to kill Royce, she's sure not going to want to go off with Mal. She's got her own life to lead.

For her part, he, in turn, can also let her guard down with Mal because he has lived through similar situations while staking out his own little corner of the universe. It doesn't hurt that he is an attractive, intelligent, considerate man, who has what appears to be a rare, fair feature in her part of the 'verse: he's actually in interested in her as a person and her life beyond her occupation, not to mention that he has values (relatively speaking – I’m holding up Royce and Jayne here for comparrision).

As for Inara’s tears, and I like Inara immensely, I think that she and he have become complacent in keeping up the “arm’s length” adagio the two of them are locked in. Let’s face it: the two of them are emotional cowards. It is much “safer” to keep up the push-pull, fight or flight bickering that they do than to risk real emotional passion and pain that they “might” feel if they ever give in to their attraction. I think her tears stem from the shock of seeing another woman be more adult about it and go in and take what she wants instead of worrying about (maybe) getting hurt. Hell. Everyone could be dead in a couple of hours anyway.

Thus end my musings for the evening. Your mileage may vary.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Quote:

---

Originally posted by greenka61:
Hesitantly wading in:...

---

Oh my God! I agree with everything you just said!

And you said it so well too!

Thank you

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME

Actually agree with what you said too, greenka61, as far as everyone’s behavior at HoG.
But there are consequences for TAKING what you want, as Mal realizes when he is regretful at the end, wishing he had never met Nandi. We know Inara has her reasons for not TAKING what she wants, she's dying, by keeping Mal at arm's length, she's thinking of him and not herself.

It's called self sacrifice, there’s no emotional cowardness in that.

Because, Inara's NOT a taker, she's a giver.

You’re right, Mal and Nandi both took what they wanted, Inara doesn’t measure up when it comes to finding ways to get what she wants, whether or not this is a weakness or strength is how one interprets human behavior.

Looking at the ending though, it’s Inara who stands tall and strong, musing on what she learned from her experience and finally making her decision to walk alone and let Mal fly free. Mal’s hope is crushed; he did the taking, and the living and the losing. Hopefully he learned something from the HoG, also.

NOTIFY: Y  | REPLY  | REPLY WITH QUOTE  | PERMALINK  | TOP  | HOME