Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, several wounded

POSTED BY: TheHappyTrader
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 24, 2024 14:52
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NIKI2

Monday, January 10, 2011 6:34 PM (P)

Sadly, it's not about censoring freedom of speech. It's about those in power having the sense of responsibility to not inflame the public with rhetoric which encourages violence for their own political purposes. They won't, so it's a uselss call for them to do otherwise. Things have changed in this country, and I don't know if we can go backwards and reclaim our sense of decency and responsibility, especially as we have acts like this over and over, and politicians haven't learned a damn thing from them. But then, of course, they don't WANT to learn; those who most advocate violence are the ones who will be least targeted, I'll bet on it.

There haven't been any cries that I'm aware of for violence coming from the left--not by public figures anyway, and they're the ones who affect people. All the "Second Amendment remedies", "shoot 'em down" and target symbols have come from the right; the left needs to get their act together, too, unquestionably, but it's the right who've been pushing violence.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

STORYMARK

Monday, January 10, 2011 6:46 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.

Choose and perish.

And there you have it.

Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

THEHAPPYTRADER

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:01 PM (P)

Quote:
That's not politics, I'm just sayin'. The vast majority of them die by guns.

Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement. Sometimes these phrases like "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" seem true, but actually aren't, not by a long shot. I'll admit the gun statement sounds plausible though. Violence with guns is probably more likely to result in death than violence sans guns.

I agree with Frem on this issue. A gun is a tool, just like a knife, or even big muscles and martial arts. A gun is a dangerous equalizer, and something I will probably never own, but I have a hard time believing we'd all be safer if they took them away. We'd probably just see more people getting stabbed, or harmed/killed by other means.

KANEMAN

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.

Choose and perish.

And there you have it.

Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:19 PM (P)

"Seriously, how did you respond so fast? And don't say you got a notification, I do not think that feature has been working in quite some time."

I'm a fast reader b/c I don't need to sound out the letters. Difficult as that is for you to imagine b/c it's SO different from your personal experience, I know. It took me maybe 15 minutes to read down the entire thread - skipping PN's posts of course b/c they aren't worth the time.

"No problem, it was the least I could do for someone hanging on my every typed word."

I saw your precious little love note that out of the blue mentioned ME, BY NAME. If you hadn't done that - and frankly been so hilariously wrong so that I actually laughed out loud at you - I wouldn't even have responded.

So, what's this attraction you have for me ? After all these months you're still thinking of me ? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... wow, I must have made a far bigger impression on you than you ever did on me.

KANEMAN

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:24 PM (P)

Ruse....You are a puppet on a string and don't even know it.

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:25 PM (P)

Who let a fly in ? I hear this annoying buzzing ...

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 7:33 PM (P)

Wulf

Knowing how you feel about 'libruls', and women, and guns - let me point out some inconvenient facts - it was an older inoffensive woman, a democrat, sans gun - who stopped the slaughter when she grabbed the clip as Loughner was reloading. Some unarmed democrat little old lady was the quick-thinking, courageous hero of the day.

If you can get your neurons working at all - think on that a spell.

Oh, and just b/c I can't resist pointing out what a turd you are: as I recall you were all ready to start the shooting when a black president gave a rather putrid form of health care to the 'undeserving' (your word) 'them' (your word). You are ALWAYS ready to call on guns as your solution of choice for every problem and ill. And NOW you are calling for reason and restraint ? Are you a coward ? All mouth about revolution but ready to shit yourself when actual shots are fired ?

STORYMARK

Monday, January 10, 2011 8:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.

Choose and perish.

And there you have it.

Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.

Said by the person who just admitted earlier in the thread that they had never posted anything intelligent or worthwhile.

What makes you think anyone gives a shit what you have to say?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KANEMAN

Monday, January 10, 2011 8:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fucking right-wing assholes.

Choose and perish.

And there you have it.

Unsurprising to see our resident piece of shit siding with murder. Fuck you, Rappy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I don't see that in his post at all. If he wrote choose or perish, maybe. But, you'll see what you want...afterall you are an asshole.

Said by the person who just admitted earlier in the thread that they had never posted anything intelligent or worthwhile.

What makes you think anyone gives a shit what you have to say?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

What makes you think I care if anyone gives a shit what I have to say?

asshole.

PIRATENEWS

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:21 PM (P)

Liberal Smear Machine Backfires After Alleged Gunman Found To Be Satanic Atheist, Abortion-Loving, Open-Border Illegal Alien Loving, Pot-Smoking Long-Haired Liberal Commie Left-Wing Democrat Homosexual Transvestite
http://www.infowars.com/liberal-smear-machine-backfires-after-gunman-f
ound-to-be-occultist-pot-smoking-left-winger/

Animal rights lover volunteered at animal shelter before shooting Republicans

Shoot Out in Tuscon: Gun Owner Returns Fire at Giffords Massacre, Makes Citizen's Arrest of Shooter, as Cops Refuse to Allow Ambulances Help Victims
Mascara-wearing Fox News host Shepard Smith aghast that a MAN would fire back at a gunman in self-defense
http://www.infowars.com/return-fire-at-giffords-massacre/

Fox says "ex" Republican Giffords "sounds like a Republican" one week before her shooting:

Gun-banner Rep Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) promising bill today banning high-capacity magazines used in shooting
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47338.html

ATF Plans Gun Registration in AZ and Border States
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/5805-atf-p
lans-gun-registration-in-border-states

FBI Says Murdered Republican Judge Wanted to Talk to "Ex" Republican Giffords About Border Violence by Illegal Aliens, After He Killed President Clinton's Gun Registration Bill (US Supreme Court case of Sheriff Richard Mack vs U.S.)
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM156_pr_01092011_loughner.html
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0111/Judges_final_actions_k
ey_to_federal_charge_for_his_murder.html

Top US Federal Judge Assassinated After Threat To Obama Agenda
A Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) report circulating in the Kremlin today states that the top US Federal Judge for the State of Arizona was assassinated barely 72-hours after he made a critical ruling against the Obama administrations plan to begin the confiscation of their citizen’s private retirement and banking accounts in order to stave off their nations imminent economic collapse, and after having the US Marshals protecting him removed. The case being ruled on by Judge Roll, this report continues, was about bulk cash smuggling into or out of the United States that the Obama administration claimed was their right to seize under what are called Presidential Executive Orders, instead of using existing laws. The Obama administration used as support for their claim before Judge Roll, the SVR says, the seizing of all American citizens’ gold, in 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s signing of Executive Order 6102, which was ruled at the time to be constitutional. The most chilling of these powers Obama has asserted for himself, however, are contained in Executive Order 13528 he signed nearly a year ago (January 10, 2010) creating a Council of Governors he has hand-picked to rule over the United States in place of its elected representatives when their next “disaster” strikes and orders them to begin “synchronization and integration of State and Federal military activities in the United States; and other matters of mutual interest pertaining to National Guard, homeland defense, and civil support activities.” United States of America v. $333,520.00 in United States Currency et al, Case Number: 4:2010cv00703, Filed: November 30, 2010
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizona/azdce/4:2010cv00703/568697/
http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-afte
r-threat-to-obama-agenda/

UNMANNED Border Crossings in USA:

Days after Giffords shooting, Feds announce plan to reopen UNMANNED border crossing
The unmanned port of entry will be monitored by immigration officials hundreds of miles away. U.S. citizens will scan their passports and the identity of Mexican nationals will be biometrically "confirmed" by self-serve computer...
http://travel.usatoday.com/destinations

WULFENSTAR

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:21 PM (P)

Rue,

This was not a revolutionary moment. Just some fucknut with a brain full of bad wiring shooting randomnly at a target of oppurtunity.

Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down. While most of the people couldn't figure out what was going on, or were playing dead, some people actually ACTED to stop this.

This is probably above your pay scale, and your mental capacity to understand.. but I thought I would give it a shot and put this into a perspective even you could get.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

WULFENSTAR

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:27 PM (P)

"Well, I can appreciate the argument that anything can be used as a tool. But surely, to limit what kind of OBVIOUS tools can be used is common sense. A guy crashing a car into a crowd of people on purpose will have no escape clause. The car is easily seen, the occupant is easily identified, the amount of consequential evidence that remains after the fact is so vast that it would be virtually impossible for the assailant to get away with it even if he evaded capture at the time.
with a gun, you can hide behind a tree half a mile away, you can take out who you like and you don't even need the guts to do it face to face.
A guy having a bad day can kill who he likes without suffering the consequences of his actions. That's the big difference."

You know there IS a reason we revolted, and won against you guys... right?

By the way, didn't you have someone ride around with a shotgun shooting up your paradise recently?

Hows that "knife crime" thing working out?

Also, you must feel safe knowing that from the minute you step outside you have a camera on you every minute of every waking hour.. have they figured out a way to get you subjects to have cameras in your homes yet?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:44 PM (P)

You know it took this to reach the news here, before I even opened this thread.

Sadly, 'gunman open fires and kills....' is such common news from the US, that if it weren't for the senator being shot it probably would barely be news.

PIRATENEWS

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:48 PM (P)

Jared Lee Loughner hires lawyer from CIA MKULTRA Unabomber
http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/jan11/AlexJones/0110111.m
p3

Dial 911 and Die: Granny tackles shooter first, cops nowhere to be found
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_heroes_
emerge_in_wake_of_evil_brave_bystanders_subdued_killer.html

A Florida man went on a shooting rampage convinced that imaginary enemies were after him. While he wasn't looking, an 89-year-old woman grabbed his ammo clip:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/weird/Granny_Foils_Deranged_Gunman_All_
_National_.html

V for Vendetta shooter foiled by Granny
http://bossip.com/319772/319772raw-footage-of-gunman-storming-school-b
oard-shoots-it-up-before-killing-self-talks-about-wife-being-fired-video69691/

Obamacare: The Case for Killing Granny
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/11/the-case-for-killing-granny.html

"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html

NIKI2

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:49 PM (P)

Hey, Rue, good to see you. Haven't seen you around for a while, or so it seems. But you do know you're pissing into the wind, trying to communicate with Wulf and his ilk, don't you?

Quote:
Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement.

Happy, your wish is my command. I hope I noted HOMICIDE deaths, not deaths from illness, etc. So as concerns homicides, your wish is my command.

Quote:
Handgun homicides accounted for nearly all of the homicide rate, from 1985 to 1993, while homicide rates involving other weapons declined during that time frame.

Not the most recent data, but over our history, I think it's adequate to answer your question.

Quote:
You know there IS a reason we revolted, and won against you guys... right?

WHO guys? WHAT revolt? Do you consider it a "revolt" every time a house of Congress changes hands? Your fantasy worldis truly amazing, Wulf; the things you say are so unreal...

Quote:
Also, you must feel safe knowing that from the minute you step outside you have a camera on you every minute of every waking hour.. have they figured out a way to get you subjects to have cameras in your homes yet?

Are you somehow under the impression that we in America are any LESS under surveilance than any other country? I'd suggest you look around you next time you go anywhere.

ETA: While I'm against most attempts at gun-owning limitation (which would be as useless as prohibition), I WOULD be in favor of outlawing the clip this guy used. It held some 25 bullets, and he tried to change clips to keep going; if the clip had held less, maybe fewer would have died or been injured. What is the legitimate purpose of a semi-automatic which carries 25 bullets anyway??

ETAA: It's sad for me to see those who have something of value to contribute here sink to the level of those who don't. While I recogize the impulse, I'm sad to see you sounding like Mike and Sig, Rue. Which of course is ABSOLUTELY your right, just makes me sad to see you letting your button be pushed by those who have nothing to say anyway and are only HERE to push buttons.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 9:50 PM (P)

"Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down."

The person who acted FIRST and who ACTUALLY in REALITY stopped the shooting was an unarmed, older, democratic, woman. Try to get it straight this time, ok? I know it conflicts with your fantasy world of some dude with a (heee heee) 'big gun' being the hero of the day, but try to wrap your head around at least a little piece of actuality.

MEANWHILE, the guy with the gun was trying to figure out if he could get a good shot - considerations which cost him time - and in the end he decided he couldn't. Not only was the gun superfluous, it was an obstacle to action - no matter how much you try and spin it, little boy.

And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:02 PM (P)

Niki and Rue,

You just love assuming that people are criminals, with nefarious purpose, don't you?

Thats why you feel that people need to be "controlled".

Must control what people say, what people do...

River: "People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

You both need to seriously reconsider yourselves, your lives, and your beliefs.

P.S.: Something you might remember. "I start fightin' a war, I guarantee, you'll see somethin' new."

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I realy have only one thing to say. Jong is absolutely right, in my opinion, that
Quote:
those that justify and even advocate murder are without human redemption.
and the things I read here are a prime example of that.

Penny for the smart lady again, as you come in as a rare rational voice here.

Quote:
Personally, I would delete Sig's remark, because "fuking right-wing assholes" is merely typical for here and happens every day, from one side or the other

You shouldn't dismiss that so quickly, as it represents the exact same type of classless hatred that leads some people to kill other people. You certainly don't resort to using that level of gutter rhetoric here. And frankly, I'm very surprised to see Signy sink so low so quickly. Guess her break from RWED didn't help too much in the mellowing category.

Quote:

That anyone can write what Kane and Gino wrote is unconscionable and an expression of a sick mentality.

The fact that you wrote that gives me great hope for a future with less hostility. You spoke against two people from completely opposite sides for their same disgusting rationalizations and acceptance of murder. And they both want more of it. Charming. Who knew such bloodlust existed so close at hand?

Of course the smartest thing you wrote was:

"I really have only one thing to say. Jong is absolutely right". That's downright poetical.

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:15 PM (P)

Oh hi Niki -

I just cruised by to see what hornet's nest got stirred up in RWE. I've been away for quite a while, and will probably not be back for a long time. The reason being - I can't remember if someone else posted this or not but it really rings true - for as many years as I've been here, I see - with some heartening exceptions - most people posting the exact same things they posted years ago. Very few people change, very few people grow, very few people get beyond the childhood battles they lost.

Sorry about the snark, but it's pointless being reasonable with the unreasonable and sometimes it just feels good to take a small shot. Whatever I or anyone else posts seems to make no difference either way. After all if all attempts at rational argument AND all the snark over all the years have not made a dent, I can't see anything making a difference at this point.

I hope you're doing well, along with all the other posters I truly enjoy.

Keep flyin'

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:21 PM (P)

Wulf

I'd call you a retard but that's an insult to the handicapped.

WHAT categories of people did I say should not have guns ? Can you remember ? Try this on for size: the mentally insane, actual tried and convicted criminals, and the underage.

How is that that I am assuming 'people are criminals' ? Can you possibly answer that ?

Never mind.

Oh, and don't go away mad - just go away.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:49 PM (P)

And Im sure, in all the hulabaloo over "OMG HE HAD A GLOCK AND IT HAD A BIG OL SCSRY MAGAZINE AND WE HAVE TO BAN GUNS AND MAGAZINES....!"

This kind of got overlooked.

Good people vs bad/crazy people...

But lets go back to the circus of how "GUNS" kill people, and not the people operating them...

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

RUE

Monday, January 10, 2011 10:57 PM (P)

Wulf

Did I say ban guns ? Did I say ban magazines ? Do you even know what I posted ? C'mon little boy, spell it out.

PEACEKEEPER

Monday, January 10, 2011 11:30 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
That's not politics, I'm just sayin'. The vast majority of them die by guns.

Not calling you a liar, but I'd kind of like some evidence on that statement. Sometimes these phrases like "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" seem true, but actually aren't, not by a long shot. I'll admit the gun statement sounds plausible though. Violence with guns is probably more likely to result in death than violence sans guns.

I agree with Frem on this issue. A gun is a tool, just like a knife, or even big muscles and martial arts. A gun is a dangerous equalizer, and something I will probably never own, but I have a hard time believing we'd all be safer if they took them away. We'd probably just see more people getting stabbed, or harmed/killed by other means.

A gun is NOTHING like a knife. Stick a knife in my hand and I would need the conviction to physically stand in front of that person and look into their face as I assaulted them. Put a gun in my hand and I can distance myself and shoot them from afar, without ever having to deal with them directly.
How many of us average people would be able to bring ourselves to stab somebody, compared to who would feel able to shoot. You are right, a gun is a VERY dangerous equaliser.It takes away the ability for any empathy whatsoever. If everybody in the world had a knife in their hand, I would feel much safer than all carrying a gun, thank you. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

KANEMAN

Monday, January 10, 2011 11:37 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Brave people, one a citizen with a pistol, brought him down."

The person who acted FIRST and who ACTUALLY in REALITY stopped the shooting was an unarmed, older, democratic, woman. Try to get it straight this time, ok? I know it conflicts with your fantasy world of some dude with a (heee heee) 'big gun' being the hero of the day, but try to wrap your head around at least a little piece of actuality.

MEANWHILE, the guy with the gun was trying to figure out if he could get a good shot - considerations which cost him time - and in the end he decided he couldn't. Not only was the gun superfluous, it was an obstacle to action - no matter how much you try and spin it, little boy.

And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.

The Ruse strikes again...

Wrong that lady was on fox. she said the story is wrong that the two guys tackled him then she got in.....but what would you know?

NIKI2

Monday, January 10, 2011 11:45 PM (P)

Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life.

Goodness, Jong, I’m blushing. What lovely things to say, and we disagree almost all the time, don’t we? As to Sig’s remark, I discount it because it’s just the usual rhetoric exhibited here, so if we count it, we have to count all the threats by some that others here should be killed, have been aborted, and on and on. The direct statements about this tragedy count, for me; the usual bullshit, not. I, too, am sad to see Sig sink as low as those whose posts I despise...Mike as well and I hope Rue doesn’t continue to join them. But it’s their right, just as it is the right of the most disgusting of us here to post the horrific things THEY do. I can only mourn that those three indulge in it, because I know THEY’RE capable of better.

Quote:
The fact that you wrote that gives me great hope for a future with less hostility. You spoke against two people from completely opposite sides for their same disgusting rationalizations and acceptance of murder.

Actually, I don’t think they’re from completely different sides. Kane’s ONLY reason for being here, he freely admits, is to trigger others. Gino hates America and all things American...I don’t see those as polar opposites, myself, but rather as lack of humanity.

Rue,

Quote:
Whatever I or anyone else posts seems to make no difference either way. After all if all attempts at rational argument AND all the snark over all the years have not made a dent, I can't see anything making a difference at this point.

Yup, in a nutshell. That’s why I pretty much ignore them and try to speak to the rational voices here. I’m not here as much anymore either, for the same reasons, but I still come to see if there’s anything interesting put up which is worth scrolling past PN’s insanely long diatribes and visuals, AND the same idiots saying the same things, to get to. My problem right now is I get caught up in replies; I need to conquer THAT, as well as coming here every day. Working on it.

Well, I’ll take one minute to respond to Wulf, not that it matters. Rue said it, the only people who shouldn’t be allowed guns are “the mentally insane, actual tried and convicted criminals, and the underage”. That’s not controlling people, that’s common sense. Nobody whatsoever said all the stupid things you put in capitals, but I realize that has nothing to do with anything you claim. Not surprising, just disgusting, as usual. Me, I’d like a simple question answered; why do people need semi-automatic weapons with 25-bullet magazines? I’m sure you have your own answer, but I don’t want to hear it, I know what it would be. I ask of the rational among us; what is the purpose of same?

And no, Rue, he doesn’t know what you posted. Bear in mind that Wulf “reads” what he expects to see, not what people actually write, then he takes it to the most extreme he can and throws it back at them, that’s all.

I'm sorry you're going away again; we need every rational voice we can have, to keep the sane among us coming at all; to leave it to the irrational hatemongers among us would be a sad, sad thing.

ETA: PK, I agree. I accept we have guns everywhere, it is the way it is. And I have no desire to ban them; it's just not possible and would be a stupid thing to attempt. But some of the more extreme things do bother me, and I wish there was some form of moderation possible. The NRA will never allow ANY moderati

PEACEKEEPER

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:06 AM (P)

When it comes to guns, it has to be Chris Rock that has said THE most sensible thing. Let everybody have a gun, but make the bullets $5000 dollars each. Now THAT is a fucking BRILLIANT idea.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

KANEMAN

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:11 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
When it comes to guns, it has to Chris Rock that has said THE most sensible thing. Let everybody have a gun, but make the bullets $5000 dollars each. Now THAT is a fucking BRILLIANT idea.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

No that is not.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:52 AM (P)

After Nidal Hassan shot up Ft. Hood the discourse was:

Mouthbreathing Conservative: We must blame the political and religious rhetoric of all Muslims everywhere for the shooting!

Femmy Liberal: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!

In the wake of the Gifford shooting, the discourse is:

Femmy Liberal: We should blame the political and religious rhetoric of the Tea Party, and all right wingers everyhwere, for the shooting!

Mouthbreathing Conservative: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!

Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.

NIKI2

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:53 AM (P)

I LOVE it!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

1KIKI

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:29 AM (P)

Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.

Mercy is the mark of a great man. Guess I'm just a good man. Well, I'm alright.

KANEMAN

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:41 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
After Nidal Hassan shot up Ft. Hood the discourse was:

Mouthbreathing Conservative: We must blame the political and religious rhetoric of all Muslims everywhere for the shooting!

Femmy Liberal: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!

In the wake of the Gifford shooting, the discourse is:

Femmy Liberal: We should blame the political and religious rhetoric of the Tea Party, and all right wingers everyhwere, for the shooting!

Mouthbreathing Conservative: How unfair to make blanket assertions about people!

Those who cry foul now, and didn't cry foul before, are opportunistic and dishonest. I admire them.

Only problem Mince, and we can blame low grade octane for your error in rational, In the case of Nidal he WAS taught by a hate breeding muslim extremist. In the case Gifford case there is ZERO proof he was a tea partier...Infact most things point.. that he was a leftist. Although, I also admire the intellectual cowards among us.

KANEMAN

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:41 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I LOVE it!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

You should... he is talking about you.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:18 AM (P)

Couple things...

Firstoff, one quibble with those "homicide" stats is that for the purpose of making those charts, those shot dead in the commission of a violent crime are considered homicides, so you have to take into account that SOME of that statistic is bunk, but even figuring out how much is damn near impossible when both "sides" lie their ass off unrepentingly to support their own cause.

Still, I consider the notion that an armed assailant with a couple holes in him due to the actions of his intended victim, gets classed as a "victim of gun violence" pretty goddamned offensive, you know ?

As to why I think the right to carry is important, Marko has written probably the best capsule explaination of that concept that there ever was.

Why the gun is civilization.
http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civili
zation/

Quote:
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

Ponder for a

HARDWARE

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:30 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

...Folk *knew* this guy was having issues, and instead of trying to help, turned their backs and further marginalized him, not that this excuses him whatever, his actions are his own - but we have a society that makes people crazy and then punishes them for being so, and for THAT, we are, all of us, responsible...

^ This.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:36 AM (P)

Funny how his Democrat parents had no complaint about his Church of Satan revival tent in their back yard.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chillin
g_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html

Liberal Smear Machine Backfires After Alleged Gunman Found To Be Satanic Atheistic Abortion-Loving Open-Border Illegal Alien Loving Pot-Smoking Long-Haired Liberal Commie Left-Wing Democrat Homosexual Transvestite
http://www.infowars.com/liberal-smear-machine-backfires-after-gunman-f
ound-to-be-occultist-pot-smoking-left-winger/

74-year-old retired Army colonel who took down Arizona assassin was grazed in the head by a bullet, choked Loughner by the neck
www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_74yearold_reti
red_army_colonel_who_took_down_arizona_assassin_was_a_born_hero.html

Democratic Commie Liberal faggot Jared Lee Loughner's mugshot today
http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/10/image-jared-lee-lou
gher-mugshot-and-smirks-in-court-today/

Creepy bastard looks just like the creepy mass-murdering husband of Rep Giffords:

Fed judge appoints CIA MKULTRA defense lawyer Judy Clarke from California, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Al Qaeda patsy Zacarias Moussaoui, defense lawyer for CIA MKULTRA Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, to represent CIA MKULTRA mind control slave Jared Lee Loughner
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=197690.0

Quote:
The Unabomber a Harvard MKULTRA Victim

In his first week, at the tender age of 16, the real Manchurian Candidate met with his soon to be controller, Dr Henry A Murray.

Ted would become one of many children indoctrinated, set-up and tormented by the "secret" CIA Mind Control program. Dr. Murray helped found the Boston Psychoanalytic Society, led the Harvard Psychological Clinic, selected agents for the Office of Strategic Services during World War II.

Dr. Murray would become world famous in 1967 as the CIA psychologist who slipped a colleague LSD. The colleague then took the magical mystery tour out the window of a New York Hotel, landing in front of horrified guests head-first on the sidewalk 14 floors below. It was the first, and worst, public exposure of the 7 billion dollar budgeted MKUltra Mind Control program in which Dr Murray worked.

But in 1959 Murray sat in an office at Harvard University in the early fall interviewing a promising prospect. From the Midwest, socially awkward, sexually repressed, incredibly brilliant...a mathematics prodigy. Murray must have liked the first test results on the very young prospect because he code named the 16 year old "Lawful". In Mind Control parlance the rough equivalent of "Perfect". Murray would meet with Ted regularly for the next three years until the records purge of MKultra in 1962 when the agency attempted to destroy all references and records related to the program.

David Kaczynski reveals the MK-ULTRA-CIA mind control program that brother Theodore Kaczynski (dubbed the Unabomber by the FBI) was unwittingly a part of for three years at Harvard, and then at the University of Michigan and probably U.C. Stanford. In recalling some of the details of his brother’s involvement in the covert behavior modification program, David Kaczynski says of his older brother, “In a sense, he wasn’t paranoid; he was in a sense conspired against.”

Here was a chance to ask David Kaczynski about his brilliant, eccentric, loving older brother, and what the U.S. government may have done to him and with him.

You know, Mom had remembered it because since Ted was only 17* when he went into this research project, parental consent was needed, and Mom remembered getting a form, you know, Harvard College, asking for her permission for Ted to be in this study and Mom said, ‘Gee, I thought Ted’s…. You know, he’s socially awkward, he doesn’t fit in very well. Maybe being exposed to p

HARDWARE

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:37 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

And BTW - the shooter is the exact reason for gun control, along with criminals and the underage. He's IS the epitome of the phrase 'nut with a gun.' But of course you are running screaming from something so reasonable as crazy people should not have guns, b/c this guy could just as well be - you.

Except, according the published reports, nowhere does it say he was receiving professional mental health treatment. Several people and institutions noted his mental instability and did nothing that would have gotten him effective treatment. Nothing in the published reports I have read would have disqualified him from purchasing a pistol, rifle or shotgun. So, how do the laws enacted after the Virgnia Tech shooting make us safer?

Regarding convicted criminals; until 1968 they were allowed to purchase and own firearms. Why are they allowed on the street if they cannot be trusted with firearms? Now that self defense has been affirmed as a civil right in Heller vs. DC and McDonald vs. Chicago, does that means a convicted felon has voided his civil right. Sorry, doesn't follow.

And until 1968 any school child in America could order a rifle, shotgun or pistol through the mail. Surprisingly, the halls of schools across America were not running red with blood. What changed between then and now?

I'm not saying you're absolutely wrong, I just want you to back your assertions up with more than just a feeling.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

CANTTAKESKY

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:51 AM (P)

Frem,

This quotation reminds me of you. :)

Quote:
"God made all men, but Sam Colt made them equal." -- attributed to Colt advertising slogan.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,28831-2,00.html

This particular variation was from Quigley Down Under.

On another note, my God, can we start a new thread? This one has got over 235 responses!

Continue here please:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=47118

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

1KIKI

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:10 AM (P)

"... nowhere does it say he was receiving professional mental health treatment." That's true - IN GENERAL we have many, many clinically insane people who never see a professional. It in part is due to Ronald Reagan's push to 'de-institutionalize' the insane and close state-run hospitals where many resided, a step he promised would reintegrate them into the community, and where close-to-home treatment would be provided. Except that the promised close-to-home treatment never happened. Oops. It is also due to a 1977 Supreme Court ruling which ruled for a maximum 3-day involuntary hold for evaluation only. But see below ...

"Nothing in the published reports I have read would have disqualified him from purchasing a pistol, rifle or shotgun." Except, oddly Arizona which does allow involuntary institutionalization for drug problems. That would definitely have landed him in the system, on the books, and denied guns.

"Regarding convicted criminals; until 1968 they were allowed to purchase and own firearms. Why are they allowed on the street if they cannot be trusted with firearms?" And why are they denied other 'rights' as well? B/c apparently, this TYPE of post-release restriction is quite common, maybe even in your state:

"There are both civil and criminal consequences to felony convictions. On the criminal side, you can be sentenced to jail or probation and/or fined. On the civil side, you may lose the right to vote, become ineligible to sit on a jury, hold elected office and/or possess a firearm. Civil consequences may last far longer than the criminal punishment."

And as of now - that's the way things are and is the sum of the argument - unless you are going to argue people break the law en masse ...

"And until 1968 any school child in America could order a rifle, shotgun or pistol through the mail." Same argument - today, it's against the law.

But you have a major problem with your logic if you are trying to argue unfettered, unrestricted access to all arms as a right - I could argue that an infant should be allowed to have a button to launch a nuclear bomb as a teething toy. Taken to extreme yours is an untenable position.

If you wish to discuss limits and where they should be reasonably set, then I'm in. Otherwise, I'll just consider you extremely stupid and not worth my time.

KPO

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:13 AM (P)

Quote:
By the way, didn't you have someone ride around with a shotgun shooting up your paradise recently?

Hows that "knife crime" thing working out?

Homicide rates for selected countries:

It's not personal. It's just war.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:05 PM (P)

Anything taken to extremes is an untenable position. Gun rights are not necessarily untenable, but babies with nuclear weapons as a logical progression from gun rights kinda is.

But, to be fair to you, there are clearly flaws in a world where people kill other people like this. Violence is not a good solution in general, rather it's a self-defeating one. At least six lives screwed up, including the shooter, and more depending on how well ten or so other injured people recover.

As a side note, I think the way the system treats felons leaves them trapped in a cycle of crime and violence, but that's another topic.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:23 PM (P)

"Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life."

Couple of things. Your way doesn't work either.

For example. Let say there is a guy who was caught dealing drugs (nothing big, just weed). He goes in, after having been convicted of 8 years. 2 years in, he realizes he won't make it thru the next 6 without catching more time. So he flips on those who provided for him to sell. He gets out for time served.

Now hes back on the street, with a conviction, no job experience, and 20 buck in his pocket.

But hes convinced to go the right way. He shacks up with his baby mama, and works with his parole officer to get a job. Its not much, and doesnt allow him to get anywhere, but its work.

he has to stay in his old neighborhood where originally was caught. The heavy heads know he flipped and are after him.

He COULD get a gun off the street, but wants to do it the "right and legal" way, do he goes to find a gun shop.

They tell him no because he was a convicted felon etc.

The next day, hes walking home and bang. Dead.

Its almost as easy to get a gun off the street in NY/LA, as it is in Georgia.

Gun Control simply does NOT work.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

KANEMAN

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:14 PM (P)

Gun control will never work in America. It was just over two life times ago we were building this country by the barrel of a gun. It is in our blood. You can't compare us to countries that have been other's subjects for a thousand years. Guns, Germs, and Steel.... That is what has made America the greatest civilization man has ever known. And with "Germs" I mean the syphylis we get in Mexico.

KPO

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Yes, Wulf, we know you want no control whatsoever on guns, ammo, bombs, etc. We know you live in an “all-or-nothing”, “black-and-white” world, so there’s no use trying to communicate with you. To you, any form of moderation is “control”, but you rail against any whiff of controlling yourself or others who believe as you do. We have no desire to “control” others, merely to utilize common sense. People with police records and those with well-known mental health problems should be allowed to have guns, in your world, probably because you think you’d take them out with YOUR guns. Doesn’t actually work that way, in real life."

Couple of things. Your way doesn't work either.

For example. Let say there is a guy who was caught dealing drugs (nothing big, just weed). He goes in, after having been convicted of 8 years. 2 years in, he realizes he won't make it thru the next 6 without catching more time. So he flips on those who provided for him to sell. He gets out for time served.

Now hes back on the street, with a conviction, no job experience, and 20 buck in his pocket.

But hes convinced to go the right way. He shacks up with his baby mama, and works with his parole officer to get a job. Its not much, and doesnt allow him to get anywhere, but its work.

he has to stay in his old neighborhood where originally was caught. The heavy heads know he flipped and are after him.

He COULD get a gun off the street, but wants to do it the "right and legal" way, do he goes to find a gun shop.

They tell him no because he was a convicted felon etc.

The next day, hes walking home and bang. Dead.

Its almost as easy to get a gun off the street in NY/LA, as it is in Georgia.

Gun Control simply does NOT work.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

If you make enemies of big drug dealers you're in trouble in any society... whether guns are freely available, legally or not. But I think the poor guy would have a better chance here in Britain, where drug dealers have less access to guns. Also we don't sentence people dealing weed for 8 years.

It's not personal. It's just war.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:19 PM (P)

Really. If people love it in Britain (and places like it) then move and/or stay there.

But as this is OUR home, we are more than capable of figuring things out for ourselves.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

KPO

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:26 AM (P)

Of course. Americans can go their own way on this issue as far as I'm concerned. Just don't imagine/pretend there's no other way - there is.

It's not personal. It's just war.

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:31 AM (P)

Jared Lee Loughner is a kosher homosexual, just like the Columbine shooters...except this time targeting jews not Christians.

That explains why only jews are allowed to report on this story on Jew TeeVee.

Quote:
Alleged Arizona shooter Jared Lee Loughner has Jewish mother, acquaintance says

An acquaintance of Jared Lee Loughner, the accused gunman in the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, says his mother is Jewish.

Bryce Tierney, a friend of Loughner from high school, told Mother Jones magazine that the alleged gunman posted “Mein Kampf” as a “favorite book” on a social media site in part to provoke his mother, who Tierney says is Jewish.

Amy Loughner’s maiden name is Totman, according to Arizona public records, and she married Randy Loughner in 1986. Totman is a common old English name and JTA could not uncover any record of Jewish affiliation for the family. Jewish Tucsonians said they were unaware of the family.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/arizona_shooting/article/alleged_arizona_
shooter_jared_lee_loughner_has_ jewish_mother_acquaintance_s/

Quote:
Is Loughner’s mother Jewish?

JTA Jewish News Service
January 10, 2011

There's a lot of buzz about the parents of Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter in the attack Saturday that critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and killed six people in an attack in Tucson.

More precisely, there's a lot of buzz about who these parents are -- we've heard about Loughner's allegedly untoward behavior at a community college, what high school acquaintances have said -- but the New York Times, for instance, shunts until the very end of its profile today what it knows about Randy and Amy Loughner: Randy Loughner was an unpleasant neighbor.

There's not much more, beyond their silence.

Now we get this from Mother Jones. Nick Baumann interviews Bryce Tierney, a friend of Jared's who recalls the alleged shooter's first encounter with Giffords, in 2007 -- and then explains why Jared might have listed Mein Kampf as a "favorite book":

Tierney believes that Loughner was very interested in pushing people's buttons—and that may have been why he listed Hitler's Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books on his YouTube page. (Loughner's mom is Jewish, according to Tierney.)

UPDATE: Amy Joanne Totman and Randy Loughner were married on April 24, 1986 in Pima County -- or perhaps that's the day they got their license, Arizona state records show. No judge is listed -- perhaps suggesting they were married by clergy? I'm not so well versed in these matters.

In any case, Totman is an old English name, and seems fairly common. I'm not seeing any connection, except for what Tierney thinks he remembers -- and even if he remembers correctly, his informant was likely Jared, who may be less than reliable.

http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/01/10/2742483/is-loughners-
mother-jewish

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&
hp

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voic
email-phone-message?page=1

Quote:
MASS MURDERERS PREFER WALMART, THE WORLD'S LARGEST GUN DEALER

Here is a scenario you might find entertaining. He didn't have a job, and lived with his parents, but he bought a $500 gun on November 30, 2010. On the day he decides to go on a shooting rampage, he purchases bullets from Walmart. Why didn't he already have bullets?

Consider the possibility that the Jews were using him as another Lee Oswald, but he figured it out, and he decided to get some real bullets, and then he turned on those Jews, thereby explaining his mugshot smirk.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/arizona-shooting/tucson-shoo
ter-was-able-to-buy-gun-with-ease/article1864871/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576074080255720
732.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Democratic Commie Liberal faggot jew Jared Lee Loughner's mugsh

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 5:13 PM (P)

Jared Lee Loughner sporting his Jewfro

Quote:
JEW LOUGHNER AND JEW GIFFORDS WERE MEMBERS OF THE SAME SYNOGUE

This is an amazing story. We now learn that Jared Lee Loughner's mother Amy Loughner is a member of the SAME Reform synagogue as Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords! That means that Amy's son, who lives with his Jewish parents, Amy and Randy Loughner, is ALSO a member of the same synagogue as his shooting victim, Rep. Giffords.

Why didn't we hear about this from our super-sleuth national media?

Instead, we hear that a 'WHITE MAN' is the shooter. We hear that 'ANTI-SEMITISM' is his motive. (Mass Mind Control anyone?)

But now...now...some FACTS are leaking out!

His best friend, Bryce Tierney, who got a "farewell" voice message the night before the shootings tells us that his friend is Jewish. He tells us that Jared Loughner put Mein Kampf down as "favorite reading" to irritate his Jewish mother, Amy.

The story and the coverup of the story gets wilder. The Loughners and the Giffords were members of the same Congregation Chaverim. On the Congregation Chaverim website we learn that this Reform synagogue that was founded in 1973 has 140 families. That's a very small group. The Rabbi, Stephanie Aaron surely knows every single family member of her congregation on a first name basis!

That includes 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner.

So, it is IMPOSSIBLE that Rabbi Stephanie Aaron did not KNOW instantly upon learning that a Jared Lee Loughner had shot Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords that BOTH people were members of her small congregation!

But does Rabbi Aaron make ANY effort to inform the media, as she takes hundreds and hundreds of media calls from the mass media, of this fact?

Apparently not!

www.whitenewsnow.com/forums/us-news-white-folks/13368-
loughner-jewish-but-his-synagogue-congregation-chaverim-hid-fact-america.html

"Each of us brings a Gabby moment to mind; Gabrielle serving our country with chain, G-d’s grace, and eloquence. In the Hebrew Bible, shlomo Ha Molech, King Solomon, asks G-d for the gift of a lev chacham v’navon, a wise and an understanding heart. Gabrielle’s Hebrew name is Gavriella bat Gloria v’Spencer, and we also use Gavriella bat Sarah."
-Rabbi Stephanie Aaron, Chaverim Synogue, Tuscon AZ
http://www.chaverim.net

Lesbian jew Hillary Clinton Blythe Rockefeller compares Gabrielle Giffords shooting to 9/11 Inside Job by The Jews
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/825080
9/Hillary-Clinton-compares-Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-to-911-attacks.html

Jew Gabrielle Giffords shooting: Jew Jared Loughner may have been influenced by Satanic Babylonian Jewish Talmud, er, the occult, says Commander Mark Kelly faked NASA space shuttle missions
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/825108
5/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Jared-Loughner-may-have-been-influenced-by-occult.html

Quote:
Government Mind Control Experiments on U.S. Soldiers: Shocking Claims Come to Light in New Court Case

Mother Jones

Their stories are a staple of conspiracy culture: broken men, suffering hallucinations and near-total amnesia, who say they are victims of secret government mind-control experiments. Think Liev Schreiber in The Manchurian Candidate or Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory. Journalists are a favorite target for the paranoid delusions of this population. So is Gordon Erspamer—and the San Francisco lawyer's latest case isn't helping him to fend off the tinfoil-hat crowd.

He has filed suit against the CIA and the US Army on behalf of the Vietnam Veterans of America and six former American soldiers who claim they are the real thing: survivors of classified government tests conducted at the Army's Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland between 1950 and 1975. "I get a lot of calls," he says. "There are a lot of crazy people out there who think that somebody from Mars is contr

NIKI2

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 6:17 PM (P)

Just to clarify: my “I love it” crack was about PK’s post; I went to watch Chris Rock and thought it was really great. Not normally a fan of Rock, but he nailed that one.

Hardware, mood disorders like schiz and bipolar aren’t created by society; societal pressures can certainly make them manifest, but we’re not “born” schiz or bipolar. Those two disorders are manifested by people who already carry a GENE making them more susceptible to the disorder coming out. You can’t blame society for this guy; he’s a sad, pathetic bastard, nothing more or less. Yes, he wasn’t diagnosed, and that IS a failing of society; we walk away from people like that, or in the case of the school, try to protect students by suspending them, but it should be the responsibility of all of us to speak up in cases as obvious as his.

From what I heard, Arizona is one of those states where people CAN be 51/50d if it’s brought to the attention of the authorities. Not that I like that; it can have negative consequences and as a bipolar it frightens me, but in this case it should have been utilized. That nobody brought him to the attention of the authorities or tried to get him treatment (aside from the school, which did send a security person out to talk to the parents) has nothing to do with gun ownership in this case, in my opinion.

As to the gun debate, we’ve been there, done that, I’m not getting into it again. Except for a couple of things: I agree with Kiki:

Quote:
But you have a major problem with your logic if you are trying to argue unfettered, unrestricted access to all arms as a right - I could argue that an infant should be allowed to have a button to launch a nuclear bomb as a teething toy. Taken to extreme yours is an untenable position.

Moderation in all things, in essence, and the world is full of grays, nothing is black and white.

Wulf, good example for the argument that conviction shouldn’t preclude gun ownership. I don’t like it, but that’s a valid question. So is the answer that if you bring on the wrath of serious criminals or gangs, a gun isn’t gonna keep ou safe. Certainly not for long!

As to us being:

Quote:
capable of figuring things out for ourselves

we have most definitely NOT figured this out for ourselves, so that’s inaccurate, in my view; we’re just stuck with our history and there’s no going back, and we haven’t found a sensible way around the problem, certainly not yet, if we ever will.

Also, yes this thread should die. It's devolved into the usual gun argument which really has nothing to do with the most recent massacre. But it won't die, because the argument always goes on and on whenever it pops up. It's

; shy get rooked into it again?

The rest is just PN

wish he'd quite changing the titles to reflect his own madness. Now THERE's someone who maybe should be looked at...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 6:21 PM (P)

Cops arrested Jared Lee Loughner for traffic stop on day of Ariz. shooting, provoked shooter into killing rage

TUCSON, Ariz. – A wildlife officer pulled over the suspect in the assassination attempt against an Arizona congresswoman less than three hours before the deadly attack, authorities said Wednesday as they pieced together more details of a frenzied morning.

Jared Loughner ran a red light but was let off with a warning at 7:30 a.m. Saturday, the Arizona Game and Fish Department said. The officer took Loughner's driver's license and vehicle registration information but found no outstanding warrants on Loughner or his vehicle.

Wildlife officers don't usually make traffic stops unless public safety is at risk, such as running a red light. The stop was on an access road that connects to Interstate 10, well away from the grocery store, said Game and Parks spokesman Jim Paxon.

"He had a valid license, the car was registered, he had insurance," Paxon said. "He was warned and released because we had no probable cause to hold, or do an extensive search."

It's the latest evidence of Loughner's busy morning before police say he showed up at a Tucson grocery store in a taxi at 10:11 a.m. and shot 19 people, killing six, including a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

Also that morning, Loughner, 22, ran into the desert from his angry father, who was chasing his son after seeing him remove a black bag from the trunk of a family car, said Rick Kastigar, chief of the department's investigations bureau.

Investigators are still searching for the bag.

Hours after the attack, sheriff's deputies swarmed the Loughners' home and removed what they describe as evidence Loughner was targeting Giffords. Among the handwritten notes was one with the words "Die, bitch," which authorities believe was a reference to Giffords.

Sheriff's deputies had been to the Loughner home at least once before the attack, spokesman Jason Ogan said. He didn't know why or when the visit occurred, and said department lawyers were reviewing the paperwork and expected to release it Wednesday.

The visits were for nonviolent incidents, including a report by Jared Loughner of identity theft, a noise complaint and Amy Loughner's claim that someone had stolen her license plate sticker, according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting he scrawled the letters "C" and "X" on a road sign in a reference to what he said was Christianity. His address listed on the police report was an apartment near his home.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County's human resources director.

In one apparent reaction to the shooting, the FBI said background checks for handgun sales jumped in Arizona following the shootings, though the agency cautioned that the number of checks doesn't equate to the number of handguns sold.

Still, there were 263 background checks in Arizona on Monday, up from 164 for the same day a year ago — a 60 percent rise. Nationally, the increase was more modest: from 7,522 last year to 7,906 Monday, a 5 percent jump.

82,661 Comments...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot

With a throng of reporters gathered outside the Loughner home, tension has flared. On Monday morning, after reports circulated that the family had an occult shrine in their backyard, a photographer wielding a long-lensed camera jumped the back fence to snap pictures of what appeared to be a faux skull and some candles. Randy responded with a call to authorities, who dispatched a few squad cars to look into the incident. "[Mr. Loughner] told that person to leave, and we're investigating the trespassing," said David Theel of the

NIKI2

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:23 PM (P)

Giffords was not shot by "Satanic Gay Commie Jew Democrat", that is simply your typical TOTALLY STUPID way to insert your "agenda" into threads. I wish to hell you'd stop that; barring that, I wish you'd stop changing OTHER people's threads to reflect your own insane beliefs (if you even BELIEVE the ridiculous titles you put up, most of which are lies).

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

STORYMARK

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Cops arrested Jared Lee Loughner for traffic stop on day of Ariz. shooting, provoked shooter into killing rage

Do you even read your own shit? He wasn't arrested, moron. Nor did any traffic stop provoke him into anything.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NIKI2

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 8:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Loughner ran a red light but was let off with a warning at 7:30 a.m. Saturday

Yup. But then, facts have never bothered PN, so it’s not surprising.

And far more likely to have inflamed him, if he even needed a reason, was the fact that

Quote:
Also that morning, Loughner, 22, ran into the desert from his angry father, who was chasing his son after seeing him remove a black bag from the trunk of a family car

But that doesn’t fit his agenda, either, so...

To blame politics, the police, his father OR society for sparking this man's violence is stupid; we don't know what, if anything, set him off, it's obvious from the note he left that he was INTENDING to do something before he did, and there's no understanding that kind of violence no matter what. Which won't stop politicians, PN or others from blaming whoever they want.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

PIRATENEWS

Friday, January 14, 2011 12:57 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:

Cops arrested Jared Lee Loughner for traffic stop on day of Ariz. shooting, provoked shooter into killing rage

Do you even read your own shit? He wasn't arrested, moron. Nor did any traffic stop provoke him into anything.

ALL traffic stops are arrests, with or without a ticket or booking in jail. Just ask any cop, or read a cop textbook or appellate court opinion. A "detention" is an "arrest".

What do you think will happen if you DON'T stop for the cop? The cops WILL KILL YOU. (Unless you have a very fast vehicle, a good getaway route, and a place to hide out, and plans to move away from the jurisdiction.)

That's why lawyers agree, always ask a cop during a traffic stop, "Am I under arrest, am I free to go?" The cop will ALWAYS say, "No you are not free to go."

All state legislatures write statutes defining traffic stops as crimes subject to JAIL, except for a few states like Florida, who will still KILL YOU if you don't stop for the cop to give you a "civil" traffic ticket.

Everybody hates cops, especially during 100-million annual traffic stops in Amerika, to enforce the 6th Plank of the Communist Manifesto.

Read about the Battle of Athens Tennessee, the 24-hour gunfight between 500 veterans and 300 cops over speeding tickets, with the citizens using full-auto machine guns and dynomite.

http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2008/02/battle-of-athens.html

PIRATENEWS

Monday, January 17, 2011 11:59 PM (P)

Loughner didn't murder that 9-year-old little girl...doctors did:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41094143/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

It's impossible to harvest organs from dead people.

Only living people can be killed for hot steaming fresh organs...

FBI recruited and gave bomb to Christmas Tree Bomber to trick Portland Oregon to rejoin FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force (just like Jared Loughner...?)
http://www.infowars.com/contrived-christmas-tree-terror-plot-to-stampe
de-portland-into-accepting-fbi-takeove/

Quote:
Mossad Operative Nikovich12 wrote:

Giffords was not shot by "Satanic Gay Commie Jew Democrat", that is simply your typical TOTALLY STUPID way to insert your "agenda" into threads. I wish to hell you'd stop that; barring that, I wish you'd stop changing OTHER people's threads to reflect your own insane beliefs (if you even BELIEVE the ridiculous titles you put up, most of which are lies).

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/825108
5/Gabrielle-Giffords-shooting-Jared-Loughner-may-have-been-influenced-by-occult.html

LOUGHNER AND GIFFORDS WERE MEMBERS OF THE SAME SYNOGUE SAYS FRIEND
www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&hp
http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/01/10/2742483/is-loughners-
mother-jewish
www./motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicem
ail-phone-message?page=1
www.whitenewsnow.com/forums/us-news-white-folks/13368-
loughner-jewish-but-his-synagogue-congregation-chaverim-hid-fact-america.html

"Not a single issue voter, but if I was, gay rights would be it. I just want Democrats to be tough. And I wish Obama were tougher. That’s all. I’m a proud gay. I had favorite books: The Communist Manifesto."
-Jared Lee Loughner (or his sockpuppet)
www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1

"The federal government does nothing to secure our border."
-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ -- "former" Republican)

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."
-Dictator Hussein Obama Soetoro
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_kn
ife_fight.html

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:40 AM (P)

AZ SHOOTING: RIGHT PROTECTS ADL/SPLC ACCUSERS

By Rev. Ted Pike
17 Jan 11

It is now more than a week since Jared Loughner’s fusillade of gunfire shattered the political landscape. Today, there is still no evidence Loughner was significantly influenced by “uncivil” right-wing rhetoric. He is reportedly an angry, pot-smoking, mentally ill, Jewish Satanist acting out his own violent fantasies. Yet national response revolves around “uncivil” discourse from the right! This misuse of the tragedy was jumpstarted not only by rash accusations by Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik but by the Anti-Defamation League [of Luciferian Masonic B'Nai B'Rith] and Southern Poverty Law Center [run by homosexual pedophile incestuous jew Morris 'Dees' Seligman], two of the most powerful Christian-accusing Jewish supremacist groups. You would never learn their role from most commentary on all mainstream media; but within a day of the shooting, ADL and SPLC had already scripted the national conversation, teaching us false lessons they wanted us to learn.

That Sunday night, ADL's media alert asserted that religious right/Tea Party “incivility” should be a top suspect for influencing the violence. (See, ADL/SPLC: 'Incivility' of Right Probably Prompted AZ Shooting) Even earlier, Southern Poverty Law Center’s Mark Potok, on MSNBC, claimed there is much evidence that Loughner was influenced by the radical/conservative right.

Potok said there is a thread running through Loughner’s thoughts making it “pretty clear” he saw the government as the enemy. Books owned by Loughner, Potok alleges, carried a theme of anti-government sentiment. The madman admires Ayn Rand, high priestess of libertarian conservatives. He wants a return to gold and silver currency and wants government controls on grammar, an idea Potok claims “exists on the radical right." Loughner advocated for “conscience dreaming,” which Potok alleges is “almost certainly conscious dreaming,” which he says is a popular idea espoused by British controversialist David Icke. Loughner wanted to burn the flag, a desire Potok falsely alleges is shared by many on the radical right. He also believes our government is treasonous, as does the radical right, and that the government is involved in mind control. Like Sheriff Dupnik, Potok thinks the “white-hot” vitriol of the right makes it “not entirely surprising that Loughner acted out violently.” He wanted to harm politicians; he resembled Joe Stack whose anti-IRS rage caused him to fly into an Austin IRS building. Potok likens Loughner’s gunfire to the bricks thrown through the windows of Democrat offices, including Gabrielle Giffords' (presumably by anti-healthcare activists). Finally, the SPLC intelligence project director says there can be no exoneration for those who use charged imagery like Palin’s crosshairs, inflaming the disturbed. (See MSNBC Video with Potok)

In retrospect, none of Potok's accusations and innuendoes has been confirmed to accurately describe Loughner as significantly influenced by the right. Instead, he has been increasingly revealed to be a liberal-leaning Jew whose motives for shooting Giffords may have stemmed from reasons entirely unrelated to right-wing influences, perhaps from his family's association with Giffords as members of the same synagogue! (See Texe Marrs' Jared Loughner Is A Liberal Jewish Satanist)

MSNBC always interviews Mark Potok when there is any possibility of casting suspicion on the right. The powerful cable news channel is presided over by NBC/Universal president and CEO, Jewish Jeff Zukor. (Zukor produced NBC's “Book of Daniel” comedy, mocking a degenerate "Christian" family.) (See, Who's Behind NBC's "Book of Daniel?") Empowering Potok to influence a vast American audience, MSNBC pivotally encouraged the misdirected national debate this week. It continues to mock the religious right, especially the rampant “bigotry” of conservative Arizona.

The premature attack by Jewish media, ADL and SPLC must have been known to conservative voices like Hannity, [billionaire jew] Limbaugh, Bec

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:58 AM (P)

John has a point.

A couple of them.

1) the guy is not a tea partier. He exhibits many characteristics inconsistent with this image, he does appear to be a gay jewish intellectual democrat.

2) he also seems to be a libertarian, and a communist, insane, and violent, his motives are unclear. I doubt this was over the healthcare bill, it was something more recent.

3) democrats also targeted Giffords, and she, as a republican blue dog democrat had as many democratic enemies as republican ones.

4) The primary motive in such crimes is to make a personal impact. The attack may in fact have been personal, rather than policy, both in the killers mind of self aggrandizement, and in the motivation and target choice.

5) the doctors did kill the child, who arrived in better shape than Giffords, but was not granted the same level of care. At the time they sacrificed her, she was still alive. We were not specifically told that there was heart damage, just chest, but even so, even with an irreparable heart, there were five other victims present as donors. I had already figured this one out, but had been avoiding commenting on it.

All that said, both PN's sources and MSM sources lack credibility. Heavy Metal does not damage your brain, Judaism is not satanism, etc. And anti-flag Is punk, the doors and Mimi hendrix are classic rock. I have all three on my mp3 playlist, but I don't think that's abnormal. Okay, not a lot of you have anti-flag on mp3, but some do, and most of you have the other two.

Quote:

Jared Lee Loughner also published on the internet pictures of the burning of the American flag and spoke disrespectfully of the U.S. Constitution. Conservatives and Tea Party people would never do that.

This is pretty obvious. But there's more to the story:

Jared is a first class psycho. His rantings are not politically consistent at all. It's impossible to tell what he believes, or even if these beliefs drive him to action.

Personal connections with Giffords, a deep psychosis, and a desire to destroy the status quo seem to drive him, but its not steered by any sort of logic.

Analyzing his rants, i'd say he is atypical of any political bent, pure, and gets his nihilism from both sides, but his cultural spectrum of focus is well outside the Christian right. He also distinctly fits the ayn rand profile of psychology, as in completely self absorbed, but he does not list any of her works as his formative ones, and a disciple would never neglect their objectivist guru like that.

Pirate News is essentially correctly, even though there is much there which is not solidly ground on planet earth.

What I can say is that both sides have tried to make political hay out of it, to their shame.

I fall back on a campaign, apparently receiving death threats from both sides, not hiring security, and endangering the citizens. Add to that, a random lunatic trying to make an impact where he will be recognized, I'm not convinced he was driven to this by irresponsible rhetoric. But it probably didn't help.

The killer has an extraordinarily loose grip on reality.

Remember, the guy who shot reagan wanted to impress Jodie Foster, and the woman who shot Ford was protesting the imprisonment of Charles Manson. This guy would have shot Obama if he had been there, simply because he was a more newsworthy target, but he probably also would have shot McCain or Palin. If he had staying in school, he would have been a school shooter. I don't have a solution, except maybe less lethal weapons.

John Stewart did a decent piece on this, attacking Palin's hypocrisy, but frankly, I see it all over.

NIKI2

Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:05 PM (P)

Gawd, it's a pain scrolling past PN's endless blathering to see if there are any pertinent comments made by others! And it's also disgusting that he not only spews his own ugliness all over the forum, but changes others' titles to reflect the same insanity.

If ANYONE needs to be brought to the attention of the mental-health services...oh, but then I'm told he HAS, and is off his meds. I would feel sympathy for him if so, as I know a number of people who don't take meds and control their disorders just fine, but obviously he can't, or won't, so he's nothing but an irritant.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

1KIKI

Friday, January 21, 2011 5:36 AM (P)

It's common for schizophrenics to claim TV broadcasts are a government conspiracy to control their thoughts. Hence 'tin' foil hats. Similarly modern schizophrenics claim abduction by aliens - UFOS - massive government conspiracies - black helicopters - science-derived mind control - mysterious operations where they are taken apart and put back together -

Before this technology, what what did schizophrenics claim? Demons? Temptations? Spiritual torments?

Folks, they may be delusional - but they aren't aliens.

OUR society gives form to their delusions. Was Loughner drawn to the extremist - and also right-wing - arm of US politics? OF COURSE HE WAS. There is no doubt.

His actions were both insane AND political. We don't need to be making a choice between one or the other. It is perfectly realistic to think they reflect both his delusions and our society, and were both.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Friday, January 21, 2011 7:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Was Loughner drawn to the extremist - and also right-wing - arm of US politics? OF COURSE HE WAS.

Didn't we have this conversation already? I asked for your sources claiming he was drawn to right wing rhetoric, you gave them, I reviewed them, and found there was no right wing rhetoric. If anything, he might have been under the influence some form of misguided and extremist anarchy. You responded by claiming he was inspired by the 'sovereign citizen' movement which you falsely labeled as right wing as well. When you make a habit of presenting partisan conjecture and wishful thinking as if it were irrefutable fact, it's hard to take you seriously.

1KIKI

Friday, January 21, 2011 8:59 AM (P)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

They are most definitely not liberals or socialists, and their overlap with Christian, militia, and other right-wing political fringes puts them in that category.

As for your posts I see you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims, so I have a far harder time taking you seriously than I take, say WIKI. But whatever floats your boat. Also your angry hostile attitude doesn't match what you think you are.

ETA: So I read all of your posts. You seem to take major offense at anyone even associating Loughner's delusions with the right-wing fringes, and to any 'liberal' who steps over your line of what you consider acceptable or who makes an argument you disagree with, because you take it upon yourself to get into flame wars with those posters. OTOH you NEVER get into it with any of the more threatening, offensive , delusional and/ or snarky right-wingers. You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Friday, January 21, 2011 10:01 AM (P)

Quote:
They are most definitely not liberals or socialists, and their overlap with Christian, militia, and other right-wing political fringes puts them in that category.

This is an opinion. Are you claiming if they not liberal so they must be conservative? When all you have is a hammer everything tends too look like a conservative, er... I mean a nail. Also, you're wiki reference does not refer to them as right wing either.

Quote:
As for your posts I see you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims, so I have a far harder time taking you seriously than I take, say WIKI. But whatever floats your boat.

First off, I'm not claiming anything, as much as challenging your conclusions, so there's not as much to 'back up.' I'm calling you and everyone else who wants to blame the 'right' out on what I see as irrational knee-jerk blame gaming. I'm actually backing my argument up with your own sources. I watched Loughner's youtube videos as you suggested and commented on what I saw, finding no political rhetoric of any kind. The real evidence we have is his mental illness and a personal history with Giffords.

Quote:
Also your angry hostile attitude doesn't match what you think you are.

Well... I could nit pick on what you think you know about who I am and what I think of that, but I think you're right in that I am sounding more hostile and arrogant than I'd prefer. Insulting you was unnecessary and I apologize for offending you. I don't mean to be hostile as much as critical. I've found myself returning to RWED often when I'm in between tasks or when feeling restless. Perhaps that's RWED's corrupting influence, but I'll take responsibility for my actions.

Anyway, if you'd like to point at specific phrases that lead you to believe the right has influenced this, I'll be glad to debate them, but what I'm seeing is a blanket statement that doesn't appear related to the data you're supplying. Maybe you could help me see that? Or not, and just insult me, claim I've got nothin' and tell me to do my own gorram research, whatever floats your boat

I've done my 'research' I'm just trying to figure out what makes you think the way you do. I've read what you've supplied and your conclusions still don't make any sense to me. You're under no obligation to respond, I was just curious is all. I guess I felt a little insulted myself when you suggest violent extremists were influenced by Christians and Conservatives, despite the fact that I don't identify with the 'mainstreams' of either of those.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Friday, January 21, 2011 10:13 AM (P)

Quote:
ETA: So I read all of your posts. You seem to take major offense at anyone even associating Loughner's delusions with the right-wing fringes, and to any 'liberal' who steps over your line of what you consider acceptable or who makes an argument you disagree with, because you take it upon yourself to get into flame wars with those posters. OTOH you NEVER get into it with any of the more threatening, offensive , delusional and/ or snarky right-wingers.

You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

I must admit, in general I hold the 'liberal' posters to higher standards cause I've kinda given up on most of the righties. I do typically ignore the threatening offensive righties. Some of the 'liberal' posters will argue back intelligently and in the process I might even learn more about the issue, maybe even adjust my stance.

Quote:
You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

I gotta disagree with ya here though. I'm using 'liberal' here only because you are and it's convenient. I'm not assuming that niki, kwicko, frem, magons, or yourself are the same. For some of the 'liberal' posters I 'spect that label doesn't mean a damn thing. Maybe I am more partisan than I think, I'll have to think on that more, but I do want to make it clear that I don't intend to lump any group of people, ideological, political, religical or otherwise into stereotypes outside of blatantly snarky humor.

EDIT: Concerning guns, I don't care for them personally. I just dislike the idea of limiting freedoms or blaming guns for our problems.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 21, 2011 2:21 PM (P)

Not a whole lot of time, so I'm prolly going to re-state what someone already said. Paranoid schizos don't make up their delusions whole-cloth. They get their script from OTHER people with the farthest-out-there, well publicized delusions... delusions which fit a paranoid schizo's need to be super-paranoid. The current schizophrenic delusion focuses on "gubmint", "Jews" and the "new world order". That is why Loughner didn't focus on the Forbes 400, or the Catholic Church, or Russian spies, or animal experimenters

If a radical left-wing group had been pushing for someone to "take out" the Forbes 400, or to get an Uzi and "clean house" at Goldman Sachs, and Louhgner had systematically started on that plan, I'm sure the right-wing would be blaming the left wing for his actions. And while the left would be distancing themselves from the radical and violence-inciting among themselves, the blame would be justified.

So, it was the far right wing that gave form and shape to Loughner's delusions, and the right wing which pushed and guided his impetus to violence.

It was also the right wing which yanked funding for mental health treatment, and the right wing which feels it is entirely appropriate for the violently insane to have guns. So to the extent that sane people are at fault for a crazy person killing people, it's the right wing.

Oh, and BTW... is everyone tired of/ embarrassed by Sarah Palin? After the initial flare of interest in her "blood libel" blooper, coverage and comment seems to have dried up. She's just a right-winger with a narcissistic personality disorder, kind like the trolls here on the board. IMHO

THEHAPPYTRADER

Friday, January 21, 2011 8:36 PM (P)

Yeah, this is a bad thread for me, seems to have brought out the worst of me. I'ma try and do better and this will likely be my last post on this thread.

Quote:
If a radical left-wing group had been pushing for someone to "take out" the Forbes 400, or to get an Uzi and "clean house" at Goldman Sachs, and Louhgner had systematically started on that plan, I'm sure the right-wing would be blaming the left wing for his actions. And while the left would be distancing themselves from the radical and violence-inciting among themselves, the blame would be justified.

I still don't believe the blame would be justified, not unless we had proof he was taking this rhetoric to heart. As is, we don't have proof he's even heard political rhetoric (though I do consider that unlikely).

Quote:
So, it was the far right wing that gave form and shape to Loughner's delusions, and the right wing which pushed and guided his impetus to violence.

It was also the right wing which yanked funding for mental health treatment, and the right wing which feels it is entirely appropriate for the violently insane to have guns. So to the extent that sane people are at fault for a crazy person killing people, it's the right wing.

I respectfully disagree and find everything (save the yanked mental health funding) ridiculous. That's a pretty extreme stretch. I can only hope that this tragedy will bring more attention to our treatment of the mentally ill and less to blaming and punishing the party we don't agree with.

NIKI2

Friday, January 21, 2011 9:18 PM (P)

Quote:
what what did schizophrenics claim? Demons? Temptations? Spiritual torments?

Exactly those, throughout history. Since WWII, lots have endured delusions of Nazis and Commies, too.

For bipolars, it’s more grandiosity and delusions of being an angel, God, messiah, something like that. I’ve known quite a few, a couple of who came to our support group convinced they were one of the above and could “cure” us all...it was sad and in one case kind of scary.

I don’t think it’s what they “claim”, that’s the wrong word for me. I think it’s what they BELIEVE...and battle to keep in touch with reality if they can. Remember “A Beautiful Mind”? That one pegged it PERFECTLY, when it comes to schizs. I’ve always felt sorrier for them than any other mental disorder...except borderline. It made me glad I’m “only” Bipolar, just as seeing what Bipolar Is go through made me glad I was Bipolar II. I got off damned lucky!

Sig, schizs don’t necessarily get their ideas from outside sources, trust me. Like all of us, they have good imaginations, only for them the difference between imagination and reality gets blurred. Same for manic Bipolars in that way. Yes, sometimes they do, but sometimes it’s just something which happens or their disorder creating things with their imagination. In this case it looks like there was a lot of “grinding” on Giffords herself, possibly stemming from only one meeting with her. It can go from there, with no outside help at all.

Quote:
Was Loughner drawn to the extremist - and also right-wing - arm of US politics? OF COURSE HE WAS. There is no doubt.

Kiki, I disagree. From what we’ve seen, he had attitudes from the left AND right...perhaps the right moreso, we don’t know---so far anyway. I tend to think it was more the kind of obsessiveness some with mental disabilities endure, fastening on something and what we call “grinding” on it until it’s about to burst forth.

There’s plenty of guilt for the state we’re in, Dems jumped on the virulent-rhetoric bandwagon pretty good, too. Just last night I heard some idiot trying to defend his saying the right’s “big lie” was akin to Goering’s...it’s all totally out of hand and Arizona won’t change anything. I fear this is going to be a pattern for a long time to come. Will be interesting to see if the rhetoric toward the President continues as horrible when a White President is next elected. That’s part of it, unquestionably.

But Loughner is a separate case; unless he talks, we’ll never know how much politics, right or left, had to do with it. I agree that

Quote:
under the influence some form of misguided and extremist anarchy

is to me the more logical answer.

Quote:
When you make a habit of presenting partisan conjecture and wishful thinking as if it were irrefutable fact, it's hard to take you seriously.

goes for both sides, and we see it quite clearly here.

I don’t see Happy the same way you do, Kiki; mostly I’ve found him (her?) to be reasonable---bent to the right somewhat, yes, but not nearly as snarky as others, and yes, “gunbunnies” as Frem calls them ALL tend to be pretty vociferous about their “second-amendment rights.” Show me anyone pro-gun who is mellow about it: I dare you! :biggin: Yes, I have noticed a somewhat more aggressive tone, but I chalk that up to RWE, as most people who’ve come since I got here start to go down that road eventually. I don’t blame RWE as much as I blame our trolls.

Quote:
in general I hold the 'liberal' posters to higher standards cause I've kinda given up on most of the righties

Wow, that’s interesting. Me, too, and I realize it’s a failing. It bothers me more when Story or Mike or someone does nothing but snark childishly than it does when any one of the numerous others on the right do, and I think it’s for the same reason.

The one that gets me is that righties are quite happy to blame lefties so MUCH, while ignoring the language their own side has been using consistently for the past few years. If th

PIRATENEWS

Friday, January 28, 2011 2:46 AM (P)

Quote:

Primitive booths that were erected in Israel by Jews during the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles)

“Judaism is one of the oldest living esoteric traditions in the world. Virtually every form of western mysticism and spiritualism known today draws upon Jewish mythic and occult teachings—magic angelology, alchemy, numerology, astral projection, astrology, amulets, altered states of consciousness, alternate healing and rituals of power—all have roots in the Jewish occult.”
—Rabbi Geoffrey W. Dennis, Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism (2007)

New York Daily News photo of the Jewish Sukkot booth erected in the Loughner backyard (above and below)

Did Jared Lee Loughner Carry Out a Deadly Kabbalistic Ritual in Tuscon? Babylonian Judaism, the Kabbalah, Illegal Drugs, Fantasy Games and Satanic Music—A Lethal Combination...
http://www.texemarrs.com/022011/did_loughner_carry_out_ritual.htm

Dictator Obama Bill to Kill Internet
www.infowars.com/kill-switch-obama-administration-fears-egypt-style-re
volt-in-u-s/

1KIKI

Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:57 PM (P)

Just wanted to point out a few things:

Loughner's ex girlfriend claims he's not crazy, but angry against the government, that even before his behavior deteriorated he went on angry political rants: http://www.examiner.com/political-transcripts-in-national/ashley-figur
eoa-old-girlfriend-says-loughner-is-not-crazy-but-angry-video

The FBI did a forensic analysis on Loughner's computer and found he was researching assassinations and the death penalty before he went on his shooting rampage: http://o.seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2014048422_arizona27.ht
ml

Unlike Figueroa, I think Loughner is delusional, but it's not a case of either/ or - you can be both delusional AND politically motivated.

And for those who think that political extremists don't influence behavior: Frances Fox Pivens, an obscure historian at CUNY, has been targeted by Glenn Beck as a fomenter of violent revolution. Since then she's received violent and demeaning emails, and death threats from unstable individuals with a poor grip on reality: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/23-0

These are example links, a simple google search will provide more sources.

As for whether or not Sovereign Citizen movement is right wing, I'm reposting the WIKI link. There you will find a number of links for overlapping and related groups which ARE right wing, the grouping of which indicates that indeed, it's a right-wing movement. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

But even more, to not understand that it IS right wing is to not understand the origins of its arguments and beliefs, and the distinctions that must be made between one set of arguments and another.

Other than that, yeah, we've all had threads that were less than stellar.

1KIKI

Monday, January 31, 2011 3:31 PM (P)

any thoughts ?

PIRATENEWS

Monday, January 31, 2011 7:22 PM (P)

Quote:
1KIKI said:

any thoughts ?

FBI runs the patsies, assassins and death squads...

Ask MLK, JFK, RFK. Oh you can't, they're dead.

FBI Crime Lab busted falsifying evidence in 100s of cases, says US Dept of Justice
www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fbi+lab+falsify+evide
nce

40,000 violations of the law by FBI snooping since 9/11
www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/violations-law-fbi-snooping/

Dictator Obama Bill to Kill Internet
www.infowars.com/kill-switch-obama-administration-fears-egypt-style-re
volt-in-u-s/

NIKI2

Tuesday, February 1, 2011 2:10 AM (P)

I only came back here because of the title change, but read your last post, so I'll reply to that much. (Obviously PN, as usual, has no "thoughts" and feels the need to change the title to something stupid.)

I agree with everything you said, Kiki--except I don't know anything about "Sovereign Citizen" and I'm not about to get back into this hellaciously-long thread.

PN, who the hell is "Nikovich12"? I'm "Niki2", you idiot.

Get a brain
Take your meds
Get a life

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

HARDWARE

Tuesday, February 1, 2011 3:02 PM (P)

1kiki;
Sorry, your comment on the Sovereign Citizen movement doesn't hold water. It's as if you are saying that I live on the same block as a pot smoker therefore I must be a pot smoker. Does not follow.

Individuals can be right or left wing, philosophies can be right or left wing. A movement is a collection of people. Unless all of those 300,000 people your link states are right wing you cannot state the entirety of the movement is right wing. They may have goals or points of congruity with other right wing movments, but even you link doesn't make that comparison.

On the face of it the Sovereign Citizen seems to be about taxes and rights with respect to the fedgov.

But really, this thread has staggered on long enough.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

JAYNEZTOWN

Wednesday, July 24, 2024 2:52 PM (P)

a psycho gun man but...

an event that may haunt the Republican Party?

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