Had Firefly done Seven seasons... What ending would have suited you?

POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 6, 2011 08:38
VIEWED: 19476
PAGE 1 of 1

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:02 AM (P)

It's not often a TV has the chance to end they way the creators envisage. Such is the case with our beloved Firefly.
So I'm wondering, in an ideal world had Firefly run it's course of the supposed seven seasons, what finalé can you envisage where you as a viewer would have been satisfied with it's conclusion.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:24 AM (P)

Great question!

I do know Mal would never die...No matter what. He would always just fly right off into the sunset (or a raincloud!)
Maybe just for me, but that's alright.

NO DAMN ENERGY RIBBONS!

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:32 AM (P)

Cheers.

And yes that's a classic image of Mal flying off.

But what of the others? Are they with him are they gone ? If so where and why and are they old or young still?

I have so many questions...

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:45 AM (P)

Every time I put my two cents in someone jumps down my throat...so I'm skittish...I just wanna come in here to relax.

I see River sticking around, but Zoe preggers changes things a bit there.Book and Wash are done, not much to say there, unless the movie was a halucination. I loved the movie, others didn't. Mal and Inara could only go down so many ways...I think Simon would've cured whatever she had, but I don't see them havin' that "whole passel" of kids Mal talked about. I mean Inara?- with spitup and diapers? I dunno... Either an epic fling or an epic friendship or both, for me...I flirted with the idea of Yo-saff on staff, but I think...no. Jayne, Kaylee, and Simon are soooo up in the air...so many ways that could go...I'd be Ok with whatever they do.

What would you wanna know the most?

CLANCYDOG

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:49 AM (P)

It was all River's imagination. Just like the autistic kid on St. Elsewhere.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:57 AM (P)

Hey Wish

Not jumping down your throat, just genuinely curious. As there is no right or wrong to this I'd have thought we're all on pretty safe ground.

As you've mentioned there are so many ways that this could have played out that it's a juicy question to put to the masses. So many wonderful interpretations.

Personally I envisage Simon, River, Kaylee, and Zoe finding a life away from Serenity.
Inara I think Joss would have killed off. Most likely just after she and Mal came to some kind of resolution.
Thereafter....
Mal and Jayne I see as a kind of disfunctioning Butch and Sundance and that ultimately their endings would be heroic and ambiguous. The implication is they die in some out numbered last stand, but their deaths would never be confirmed.
Suspicion that they remain alive would later spring from the fact that SERENITY though supposedly scrap in some far off junkyard in space mysteriously disappears from the junkyard never to be seen again.

...and Zoe now a mother and a teacher off world receives in the post a little plastic dinosaur that used to be on the dashboard of Serenity.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:02 AM (P)

I actually think Inara wants kids, which is why she gets upset by the thought of Mal having them with Saffron. Her condition must be genetic and she's concerned about passing it on. The way she interacts with Kaylee and River, plus her desire to have the shuttle and the subsequent attention to decoration is telling: the woman is subconsciously nesting.

Of course, that would depend on there being a cure. Which, considering how Joss and Tim and everyone are still acting like there's more to the story after Morena spilled the beans, there may very well be.

As for the end... I imagine one last double cross, the crew transmitting a "gotcha" message to the Blue Sun Corp after an epic caper stealing all the damning evidence.

River standing on another building some distance away from the headquarters, light just this side of twilight with a dawn.

And a remote controlled Serenity equipped with ship-mounted weapons taking out the boardroom with all the CEOs inside it.

With Blue Sun, so falls the economic basis of the Alliance. We get an epilogue scene or episode suggesting the rim and core have all gone back to post-apocalyptic levels dealing with the aftereffects of the Alliance and Blue Sun pacification efforts (creating more zombies and Reavers), but humans and life in general is finding a way, as symbolized by Kaylee and Simon's kids.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 11:56 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

...and Zoe now a mother and a teacher off world receives in the post a little plastic dinosaur that used to be on the dashboard of Serenity.

Wow... very poetical. I like it, a lot.

The laughing Chrisisall

ECGORDON

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:53 PM (P)

It is a certain bet that seven seasons of Firefly would have brought us story lines that we can't even imagine. There is no reason to assume that the cast wouldn't have gone through multiple changes over that time, and not only because Joss likes to shake things up with character drama and death.

Remember how Charisma's pregnancy altered a story line in Angel Season 4? Any number of things like that could have shaped Firefly over the years, including people getting the chance to be on another series. We might say they would be crazy to leave Joss, but we have no idea where their character arc would be at that point. And by that time Joss might have created another show (or shows) so Tim or Jane might be the show runner then.

There are only two characters that I am sure would have survived the entire ordeal, Mal and Jayne, but that doesn't mean Jayne would still be on the crew. As for the finale, I can only hope for something as brilliant as the end of Angel.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:03 PM (P)

double posts and eaten posts, grr

TWO

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:03 PM (P)

I see the entire crew emigrating on a gigantic starship named Shepherd Book, which is carrying a cargo of short-range spaceships to the Solar system. Since none of the ships need protection from vacuum, the starship is open sided to save weight, revealing the cargo. If you look close, in the last few seconds of the final episode, you see that one of those spaceships is Serenity.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:07 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Hey Wish

Not jumping down your throat, just genuinely curious. As there is no right or wrong to this I'd have thought we're all on pretty safe ground.

It weren't you I was concerned with

I also like taking on the Blue Sun thing(needs to be run by an Asian to help explain why everyone cusses in Mandarin- that and Asians can make great villians)...Someone mentioned possible alliances with the other people who were experimented on...I don't know how many River's one ship can safely hold???

Hmm. A fractured crew fighting off a two fold attack and then they find out about Inara. I think they outta pick up a female merc for Jayne (think I.R.A. and wouldn't that be fun)...I think I'm still thinkng how another movie would end, not the series though...

Whatever happens, as long as Joss is at the reigns, I'll be happy with..

I also think Inara wants kids, but I don't think she's gonna get 'em for some reason... Just me...

ZEEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:30 PM (P)

Mal gets killed by a pissed off evil Zoe after the death of Wash and the stillbirth of their baby (due to Joss's "NO MORE BABIES" mandate). Jayne takes her out but it's too late for Simon to save the captain.

Inara would be long since dead from her illness or whatever.

Simon and Kaylee would be married and inherit the ship. Jayne would stay on due to his growing respect for Simon and his "family" bond with Kaylee.

River would leave the ship and head off on her own to join the underground movement that helped save her from the academy.

Book - dead since Serenity.

Wash - dead since Serenity.

There would of course be new crew members by that point. No idea where their stories would go.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:57 PM (P)

I've always thought Jayne and Saffron would be a fun and hilarious hookup. Can you imagine the backstabbing?

Although granted we could get that with a Mal and Saffron hook up, it just seems Jayne would be better at the backstabbing, or sometimes the lucky blunder that messes up Saffron's plans.

I guess shifting the pairing from Mal/Saffron to Jayne/Saffron depends on whether Mal is even attracted to Saffron anymore. He's still tricked pretty easily by her wiles, but from the frisking in Trash I get the feeling that whatever seduction she tries he doesn't want anywhere near it. But that could be Foe-Yay.

GWEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:02 PM (P)

As has been pointed out, in a 7-season run, there would be twists and turns and cast changes as-yet-unimagined.

I've thought about this topic A LOT as part of the Virtual Firefly series that I was head writer for. We tried to be very loyal to Joss's vision, intentions, and agenda (in Firefly and other projects), and I had a definite image for where the Virtual Series would have gone by it's Seventh Season finale. I'd like to think that it's like something Joss would have come up with.

To get to that finale, we have to first consider some of those twists and turns that might have happened in future seasons (although I will stay away from introducing new characters).

Before the finale:

1) Zoe gives birth. Eventually leaves the ship (probably around season four).

2) Mal and Inara get together. Mal and Inara break up. Deal with it. It's what Joss does.

3) Kaylee and Simon have a relationship. Kaylee and Simon break up. DEAL WITH IT. It's what Joss does. Be happy they're both still alive!

4) A new Browncoat movement arises, fights a second war. Mal wants nothing to do with it. One of the leaders of the new movement is--surprise, surprise--the Operative.

5) At some point, the crew needs a second Firefly for a job, so they create the Duplicity from junkyard parts. As the series progresses, the ship is fully rebuilt, then eventually captained by Simon (who briefly leaves Serenity to fight in the war) and later Saffron (who joins both Mal's crew and Simon's crew at various points).

6) The crew fights one or more clones or River, who are agents of Blue Sun.

Set-up within Season Seven or just before:

1) Simon and Inara become a couple. Since it's too awkward on the ship, they head to the Core, where Simon is a promising, crusading politician, aided by Inara's savvy and connections.

2) As the season progresses, Inara's condition worses, and Simon becomes devoted to (obessed with) saving her, or at least being there for her. He becomes increasingly withdrawn.

3) Mal and Kaylee are also a couple, not because of an undying passion for one another (indeed, she often feels that he may leave her at any moment) but because of their shared love of Serenity (in essence, their "child").

4) Saffron is captaining the Duplicity, possibly with a wacky crew of her own. She does jobs for Simon/Inara and sometimes teams up with Mal. She has offered most of the crew spots on her ship, and near the end of the season, Jayne goes over, because she's more prosperous than Mal and promises to make him first mate.

5) Zoe and the Jude (the Operative) keep crossing paths and have an odd relationship. Not a romance, per se, because she despises him so, but if she can forgive him, she can purge the bile that has built up inside her through the years.

6) The crew (at least some of them) discover (possibly in the sixth season finale) that "their" River is a clone, and that the real River Tam is actually one of the Big Bads in Blue Sun.

Now, for the finale:

1) In the finale, we discover Blue Sun's end game: it involves looking for mankind elsewhere via psychics (a process/device that mirrors the fear-driven "mainframe" in DOLLHOUSE). That's why they made psychics in the first place.

Ultimately, we will discover that Earth-that-Was isn't quite as "was" as we thought, or perhaps there's another "settlement" of folk between Earth-that-Was and the Verse that we know. Point is, there's more of mankind out there.

2) Evil River kidnaps Kaylee in an effort to get their hands on our River. Needless to say, Mal has to go with war with Blue Sun, and he call on every resource available.

2a) He asks Saffron and Jayne for help, but they're in the middle of a huge money-making opportunity, so they turn him down (although Jayne feels a little bad about it).

2b) Simon can't help because Inara suddenly collapses, but he sends resources that only money can buy... possibly a group of soldiers or mercenaries for Mal to command.

2c) Mal asks Zoe for help--the first time he's done so since she had

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:17 PM (P)

Mal and Inara get married

Zoe becomes a shepherd

Jayne becomes a security guard at the Companion Training House

Simon beats the crap out of his parents, and has them taken to Higgins Moon, to spend the rest of their lives as apprentice Mudders.

Kaylee becomes a successful author, writing about her experiences in the black.

River, with assistance from The Operative, topples the Alliance Govt., and is unanimously confirmed as President of the New Republic.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM (P)

You do have some interesting ideas Gwek. I may not agree with all of them, but you do.

Although it always kinda bugs me how you tell people to "deal with it." Yeah, we know that Joss breaks up pairings, but is it so wrong to still like the original pairings? Even then, he does have SOME main pairings that are kind of on-and-off again, if not fairly stable (like in Dollhouse).

Clones and Earth-that-Was... I have to admit you lose me there. I've just never seen why anyone would still be interested in Earth-That-Was in the verse beyond the curiosity, I don't see how Earth-That-Was offers anyone anything.

But I like your Zoe and Jude storyline. And we end kind of similar with Serenity River seeing the end of Blue Sun. :)

And to be fair to the clone thing, it's KIND of what happened in Dollhouse. I think Joss scavenged a lot of his ideas for Dollhouse from his endgame he had planned for Firefly.

Which is why I see Simon and Kaylee, because I see some similarity between them and Victor and Sierra. I can totally imagine Simon leaving Kaylee with a kid to go off to work against Blue Sun and the Alliance, possibly with some enhancements he's made using medicine and stolen technology. Maybe they break up because of it. Maybe not.

Mal might not end up with Inara, I could even see your scenario where he ends up with Kaylee, but I still ship M/I (just get kind of the same vibe from M/K as I do M/R, just doesn't work for me).

Mal or Simon might die, because they have some overlap in a way with Ballard from Dollhouse (Mal personality-wise, Simon role-wise, or maybe both for Mal if Joss was planning to go Mal/River). Mal's death has possibly been foreshadowed in the short story Crystal.

River and Echo overlap a lot, but River might also die, her death was also potentially foreshadowed in Crystal (along with Inara's).

I appreciate your leaving River unattached. Not many people do that. I think River's become something a little beyond mortal ken, so pairing her off I don't see as the priority.

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:41 PM (P)

So Gwek....You haven't thought about this or anything, huh....

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:51 PM (P)

Zoe as a Shepherd, that's another interesting possibility.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:52 PM (P)

I also like the Butch Cassidy and Sundance ending, especially if it could be from Mal and Jayne taking out Blue Sun.

KRELLEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
It's not often a TV has the chance to end they way the creators envisage. Such is the case with our beloved Firefly.
So I'm wondering, in an ideal world had Firefly run it's course of the supposed seven seasons, what finalé can you envisage where you as a viewer would have been satisfied with it's conclusion.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

I would prefer they somehow found a way to topple the alliance in some greath battle on the ground and in space.

and then as someone suggested that the Rim Worlds along with the core, found a way to co exist peacefully in a loose commonwealth of independets planetary governments for the good of all. :-)

TWO

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:58 PM (P)

All the comings and goings of couples are what people want to watch on Firefly, but would Joss Whedon make the political dynamics of the Universe far simpler than Earth? After the Unification War peace treaties were signed, the 'Verse might not be unified, even on paper.

Surely there were richer planets that stayed neutral in the Unification War? In this 7 season Universe, where are the equivalents to India, France, and, especially, Russia? Planets that aren't colonies of the Alliance and planets that the Alliance can't shove around?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:01 PM (P)

Inara leaves Mal with three really obnoxious kids two of them boys and a girl before her condition takes her because Joss is in charge. One of the biggest joys of these little guys bring is that they terrorize Jayne cause it makes Daddy laugh and he never smiles anymore.

This would be hilarious, and something I would WANT to see:)

KCHLIPALA

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:03 PM (P)

GWEK, that was the best thing I read all week. I actually envisioned most of it and it really made my day.

Would you mind if I share your idea if I gave the proper respects that your the originator?

KRELLEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
All the comings and goings of couples are what people want to watch on Firefly, but would Joss Whedon make the political dynamics of the Universe far simpler than Earth? After the Unification War peace treaties were signed, the 'Verse might not be unified, even on paper.

Surely there were richer planets that stayed neutral in the Unification War? In this 7 season Universe, where are the equivalents to India, France, and, especially, Russia? Planets that aren't colonies of the Alliance and planets that the Alliance can't shove around?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Well ScrewTheAlliance had a good idea of how the Alliance was actually founded, that because Shan Yu the Tyrant, had taken over a Confucian/Tao -Chineese planet that he Yuan had set out to conquer everything. and they grew think tthey should control everything, and that some imperial Faction fougth along with the independents to reestablish the Yuanese Impire for the good of the yuanese people,

try read them if you have not yet read them. starting with kaylee´s Lament, followed by The Treasure of Lei Fong Wu and unfinished buisness.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:10 PM (P)

Uh, well technically, the whole "colony" issue is exactly the reason the Alliance felt justified waltzing into the border and rim and taking over, according to the Serenity RPG manual.

The one thing I'm not clear on, and the manual doesn't specify, is whether the Alliance was around to oversee the original colonizing, or whether they showed up later and took credit for it retroactively. My suspicion is that Blue Sun and the Alliance have been around for a while, someone had to put the Arcs together from Earth-That-Was, someone had to oversee terraforming the planets, and this would also explain all the "the Alliance is England with a king and parliament and lords" analogies. In that way the Unification War was both the American Civil War AND the American Revolutionary War.

I think that Joss wants to tell people a message, and I think that message is "hey, government is good sometimes, but when it starts to step on your toes, you should overthrow it. Also, corporations are evil, and in cahoots with the government."

In Dollhouse, the story was about killing the Rossum Corporation, which ultimately took out/ took over government when the remote wipe crisis blew up on them (possibly intentionally). Imagine Blue Sun dowsing planets in PAX in a bid to take power, and I think you'd see a similar outcome.

>_> I actually don't think there would be a Unification War fought as the series went on, even after Miranda. Supposedly the Miranda Broadwave only reached less than half the planets in the verse, and according to Mal at the end of the movie the Alliance has already started to spin the Broadwave into a hoax so well that Mal thinks the verse is going to roll right back over and go to sleep. He even seems to think there won't be a war over the broadwave during his fight with the Operative, if Take the Sky is anything to judge by.

But that doesn't mean members of the crew might get involved with anti-Alliance or anti-Blue Sun efforts, here and there, as I doubt they'd stay together for the entire run of the show.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:12 PM (P)

Hehe, I actually borrowed ScrewTheAlliance's ideas a little, though I put Shan Yu back on Earth-That-Was causing WW3 and precipitating exodus.

TWO

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:38 PM (P)

In a Universe where mankind can ignite gas giants to become dwarf stars, there probably are weapons more destructive than H-bombs, but only if Joss Whedon wants that.

Imagine for a moment that it is very difficult, very costly, and takes a large amount of energy to create artificial gravity for an entire world. Next, imagine that it is easy (easier than making H-bombs) to release all that energy stored as artificial gravity. That would be a Universe where the Alliance would want complete control of everyone on every planet, thus the Paxilon experiment. It would also be easy to retaliate against the Alliance. A very dangerous 'Verse.

The final episode of Firefly could be about half the planets in the 'Verse being converted to heat, light, dust, and asteroid belts. Serenity dodges disaster, somehow. It would be a visually stunning Firefly episode as planets explode like fireworks. "Oh, the humanity!" Our heroes survive.

Joss went halfway to the Apocalypse on Dollhouse and Buffy Season 8 comics. Why not on Firefly?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

GWEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:52 PM (P)

a s

Quote:
Originally posted by KChlipala:
GWEK, that was the best thing I read all week. I actually envisioned most of it and it really made my day.

Would you mind if I share your idea if I gave the proper respects that your the originator?

Glad you enjoyed! If you're not familiar with it, might I suggest that you check out www.stillflying.net: 29 episode length scripts, 7 finishing out Season One (ending with a finale adapted from THOSE LEFT BEHIND) and a full 22-episode Season Two (exploring what it might have been like if the movie has been a season instead).

Feel free to share with anyone you'd like. If you don't mind, I appreciate the attribution, and also a reference to www.stillflying.net, for those who might be interested.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:01 PM (P)

Oooooh. Okay, I'm liking that. Both visually dramatic and horrifyingly bleak.

We gotta have Pax too though. Just so all surviving worlds will still have something to worry about after the end. Season 8 comics can be about trying to figure out a cure for the Pax. :D

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:04 PM (P)

Still Flying is good, you woulda made some good episodes. Sorry for ragging on you a little there.

GWEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:10 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Still Flying is good, you woulda made some good episodes. Sorry for ragging on you a little there.

There's no need to apologize! Everyone has different opinions, and that's what makes the world go 'round.

I don't think we actually disagree on too many major points, and where we do, it's a matter of perspective.

I didn't feel like you were "ragging" on me. I just love to prattle on about FIREFLY. :)

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

GWEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oooooh. Okay, I'm liking that. Both visually dramatic and horrifyingly bleak.

We gotta have Pax too though. Just so all surviving worlds will still have something to worry about after the end. Season 8 comics can be about trying to figure out a cure for the Pax. :D

Mmmmm. Exploding planet-y goodness. Imagine what the Blue Sun commercial for that would be like! :P

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:14 PM (P)

We do probably agree on more than we disagree, that's usually the case. In this case I decided to let go of the obvious disagreement and take in all the ideas as a whole.

I think it worked out better for everyone involved. :)

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Mmmmm. Exploding planet-y goodness. Imagine what the Blue Sun commercial for that would be like! :P

Omigosh. Can you imagine if Firefly caught on and Joss was able to do the advertisements for it in surreal Blue Sun style?

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:24 PM (P)

GWEK, I think you've got some great ideas, too, and I've enjoyed reading, "StillFlying"...your pairing tangents are a wee bit adolescent for me, I’m assuming they're based on Joss’s penchant for Buffy and Angel breakups, but hey everyone's entitled to their shippy opinions.

GWEK

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:38 PM (P)

Yes, to some extent the pairings are based on the precedent that over the course of seven years of serialized fiction, the relationships that seem "obvious" in Year One are not going to be intact in Year Seven.

In particular, the Mal/Kaylee pairing is based on the idea that both of these characters are driven by their love of Serenity and neither would ultimately want to leave her. (I don't see Inara or Simon being content to stay on the ship for the rest of their lives.)

I find it interesting that you use the term "adolescent" to describe what could be the strongest, most stable (most adult and realistic) pairings of the possible combos (ie, relationships based on shared values, common experience, and the ability to actually live with each other over the long-term, rather than the fun-in-fiction-but-usually-doomed opposites attract dynamic).

But, as you say, different strokes...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

LWAVES

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:12 PM (P)

I've only skimmed through the previous posts but this question has come up before for me about Firefly and other shows.

My take for the original cast members goes something like this:

Before the end:

The movie plays out over the series so Wash and Book still die eventually.
Zoe finds she is pregnant and gives birth.
Mal and Inara get together for most of a season and then break up. Inara leaves Serenity (again). Mal then finds out about her illness and goes searches for her whilst doin jobs.
Kaylee and Simon have an on/off relationship including her seeing someone else (a new crew member). Kaylee and Simon still love each other but hide their true feelings.
Simon gets overly possessive and protective of River so she rebels against him.
Jayne is still Jayne but Book's death has started to change him (a little bit).
Mal spends time recruiting Independents and moves away from the just being a Captain into a true leader.

The end:

The final season is partly our crew doing it's thing and partly an uprising against the Alliance and Blue Sun.
Simon and Kaylee finally agree that they love each other and stay together.
Simon also realises that River needs to be let go and be her own person.
Jayne has changed (a little) and has come to appreciate and respect the crew around him as friends, even River and Simon.
Zoe, ever loyal to Mal, gives her life to save him in the final battle.
River effectively takes over Zoe's position as Serenity's second in command.
Mal catches up with Inara but she won't go back with him. At some point a cure for her illness is found, maybe by Simon.
Mal and Inara agree to bring up Zoe's child between them but stay seperate as a couple.
The Alliance is effectively brought down and Blue Sun destroyed.
Serenity and it's crew fly off towards a sun with Mal remarking that 'It ain't so black out there anymore'.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:12 PM (P)

...Must... resist urge to point out the influence of personal experience on writing relationships in fiction and opinion on workability.

And urge for self-narration.

Okay. Mostly averted.

Zoe/Wash and opposites attract was already done in Firefly, it's not unfair to predict that Joss may have gone elsewhere for his other pairings.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:48 PM (P)

Hi GWEK, I seem to think we've discussed this one before:)

The idea of Mal and Kaylee bonding over the ship was recently negated in both "Better Days" where Kaylee's fantasy takes place OFF the ship, and in "Take the Sky", where Mal states he would lay down his burdens and give up his fight in exchange for a normal life with Inara. I'm assuming on or off the ship. Canon overrides speculation.

Also, the problem with Mal and Kaylee (based on your argument), beyond being like brother and sister, is that if the ship goes down they no longer have a unifying constant, with little passion or intellectual attraction for each other, there wouldn’t be much to keep them together, the pairing doesn’t work off of the ship.

Wash and Zoe were opposites and they seemed to work just fine, grew together, even made a baby, because they wanted a life together regardless of what they had in common or not.

And...doesn't "mature, stable, adult, shared experiences, able to live together for a long time" describe Mal/ Zoe rather than Mal/Kaylee?

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

The end:

The final season is partly our crew doing it's thing and partly an uprising against the Alliance and Blue Sun.
Simon and Kaylee finally agree that they love each other and stay together.
Simon also realises that River needs to be let go and be her own person.
Jayne has changed (a little) and has come to appreciate and respect the crew around him as friends, even River and Simon.
Zoe, ever loyal to Mal, gives her life to save him in the final battle.
River effectively takes over Zoe's position as Serenity's second in command.
Mal catches up with Inara but she won't go back with him. At some point a cure for her illness is found, maybe by Simon.
Mal and Inara agree to bring up Zoe's child between them but stay seperate as a couple.
The Alliance is effectively brought down and Blue Sun destroyed.
Serenity and it's crew fly off towards a sun with Mal remarking that 'It ain't so black out there anymore'.

*sniff*
That's real good...

"Separate as a couple"- very 'Joss'.

The laughing Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:06 PM (P)

And very Inara... Girl, I'ma SMACK you if you keep doing that to the poor guy!

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:56 AM (P)

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Wow... very poetical. I like it, a lot.

Cheers dude!

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:05 AM (P)

Gwek.

NOW THAT IS A REPLY!!!!!

Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for that. That's remarkable.

It's not all what I personally would like to see but I think your thought and logic are well applied and I love the design of your contrivances. Nifty stuff.

While I was reading it I was totally against the cloning stuff. Just because in principle I don't like cloning type narratives, however, I gave it some more considerations and in particular Joss' writting of Alien Resurrection and realised this is actually something that Joss would do. It's his kink for sure. So I have to hand it to you for that. Nice observations.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

GWEK

Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:03 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Gwek.

NOW THAT IS A REPLY!!!!!

Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for that. That's remarkable.

It's not all what I personally would like to see but I think your thought and logic are well applied and I love the design of your contrivances. Nifty stuff.

While I was reading it I was totally against the cloning stuff. Just because in principle I don't like cloning type narratives, however, I gave it some more considerations and in particular Joss' writting of Alien Resurrection and realised this is actually something that Joss would do. It's his kink for sure. So I have to hand it to you for that. Nice observations.

Glad you enjoyed! :)

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

GWEK

Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:03 AM (P)

Crikey. Could've sworn I responded to this earlier tonight, but I guess it didn't save. :(

Let's try again...

Quote:
Originally posted by PLATONIST:
The idea of Mal and Kaylee bonding over the ship was recently negated in both "Better Days" where Kaylee's fantasy takes place OFF the ship, and in "Take the Sky", where Mal states he would lay down his burdens and give up his fight in exchange for a normal life with Inara. I'm assuming on or off the ship. Canon overrides speculation.

I respectfully disagree. While both stories are canon, everything you're referencing is fantasy. Additionally, in both cases, they fantasies serve the larger story.

In BETTER DAYS, to accomplish the overall arc of the story, all the fantasy have to take the characters away from Mal. That's the point. And even if we accept that what we're seeing IS Kaylee's one and only, pure super fantasy of what she craves... fantasizing and living it are two different things. Yes, her fantasy in BETTER DAYS says that she MIGHT want to leave Serenity, but every other bit of canon we see seems to indicate a different intention.

TAKE THE SKY is, perhaps, a bit trickier. The thrust of the whole story is about what Mal is willing to sacrifice to do the right thing. Happens to be everything, including his life, his love (note that everyone EXCEPT Mal and Inara winds up with a happy ending of sorts), and even his freedom. That willingness defines the boundaries of the story.

Further, Mal's willingness to live a normal life is quite conditional. It requires that Inara give up her vocation (indeed, her identity, really), and that very fact is what dooms their relationship. Also make careful note of the fact that this so-called "normal life" is silent on the matter of leaving Serenity.

Quote:
Also, the problem with Mal and Kaylee (based on your argument), beyond being like brother and sister, is that if the ship goes down they no longer have a unifying constant, with little passion or intellectual attraction for each other, there wouldn’t be much to keep them together, the pairing doesn’t work off of the ship.

Could be that you're reading only some of what I'm writing:

1) Nowhere do I have the ship going down.
2) Nowhere do I have them leaving the ship (thus, it doesn't MATTER if their relationship works off of the ship).

On the matter of them "being like brother and sister..." That argument, literature shows us, is very, very weak tea. I can point to, say, CLUELESS, as one of countless counter-examples.

Quote:
Wash and Zoe were opposites and they seemed to work just fine, grew together, even made a baby, because they wanted a life together regardless of what they had in common or not.

There is a difference between "opposite" and "complimentary." In the case of Wash and Zoe, their differences compliment each other, strengthening their relationship.

In the case of Inara and Mal, their personalities are actually pretty similar, but their worldviews are incompatible and opposite. And that spells trouble.

Simon and Kaylee (perhaps even more than Mal and Inara) are products of their very different (and opposite) societies. We see in SHINDIG what happens when Kaylee enters Simon's world. She might have a fancy evening, but she doesn't belong there anymore than Mal does. And we see on a regular basis how Simon fits in to Kaylee's world. Ultimately, he fates better than she does, but he's always sacrificing. Kaylee's world does not allow Simon to use his capabilities to full capacity (and more than Simon's world allows Kaylee to let her light fully shine).

And, see, that's a problem that Wash and Zoe don't have. Despite their different personalities, neither of them appears to have had to SACRIFICE for the relationship to work (well, maybe Wash's moustache), but a Mal/Inara or Simon/Kaylee pairing in the long term would require a significant sacrifice from one or both partners. And that would lead to resentment from the partner who changed, and quite possibly the other partner not being as enamored any

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:26 AM (P)

Some of these sound reasonable to me and some don't, everyone likes different things. I would be okay with clones, though the rest of Weck's story, at least parts of it, don't appeal to me, I think if we were going to do River clones we should have the real River on Serenity and evil clone River leading Blue Sun. It doesn't really matter though, I only bring it up to say that clones are acceptable, even though the concept seems to be becoming more obselete as time goes by, but it could still be cool/interesting.

I'm glad that everyone can imagine their own ending because it wasn't set in stone, Firefly has become so many different things to so many different people that I'm kind of glad it was short so people can imagine it how they like, the possabilities are endless.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

PLATONIST

Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:27 AM (P)

GWEK, I’m not saying you don’t have the right to your likes and opinions, I just don’t think there is much foreshadowing or justification in canon for either Mal/ Kaylee or Simon/Inara, but that’s just my opinion, plus I like Simon and Kaylee together, they’re cute and Mal and Inara are sexy as all hell together, their banter alone makes me think about love stories, relationships and so forth. I don’t know if the show would have kept my viewership if Mal and Kaylee had hooked up, sounds kind of boring. I don’t have much of an attention span to begin with; see all the Castle episodes I still need to watch on my DVR.

Actually, I liked your clone idea, but I think this could be applied to Inara’s situation as much as River’s.
Something like this could have translated easily to a sequel; hopefully someday we’ll see one.

VERASAMUELS

Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:36 AM (P)

1. Zoe with Wash's daughter growing up fast

2. Mal & Inara together, but still bickering like Beatrice and Benedick. Of course, there's Inara's secret to contemplate...

3. River developing/developed into a fighting Sensei.

4. Kaylee and Simon with a pair of twins.

5. Jayne - to his utter and complete surprise and confusion - in love, married and getting sexed up daily by his strong hot wife.

6. An Oriental and a Maori on the crew.

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

SGTLOBO

Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:39 PM (P)

Not bad! ... I like having Mal and Kaylee together. That always seemed to me to be the more natural fit.

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:54 PM (P)

"All the comings and goings of couples are what people want to watch on Firefly,"

Ewww... that is actually the farthest thing from why I watched Firefly, and seeing continued obsession with pairings between crew members is one of the fan wankiest things I wish would get ditched. If it's a "Joss thing" then it's the Joss thing I like the least. It's as if to say there's no one else in the entire 'verse, all that Story serves is how to mix and match, that FF is ultimately a soap opera with costumes. I love those characters, that's why I don't want to see them used like that. "Wouldn't it be neat if Mal and Kaylee got together??"
I watched for the uniqueness of the story telling - Jaynestown, how the hell did Edlund come up with that story? completely unique to the 'verse - coupling stories are so un-unique. Sorry!
More on that - Thinking of all the characters Joss has created I would think fans of his would be excited by the idea of new characters from which new 'ships could happen, not just limiting the possibilities to who we know.
Also, the story gets more weight if we look at this crew as a group that just came together - Out of Gas - and this is just a moment in time, one story of thousands that are going on in the 'Verse. That slice of time - and I'm not referring to the cancellation and few eps - makes it seem more intense, that because of the way the 'verse worked people tended to drift in and out of each other's lives, and occasionally they have an amazing adventure together.

I think if you look at what drives each character you can have a sense of what might be still driving them in season 7.

Mal - Freedom. However and wherever he can to find it. I like the idea of his struggle for that simple idea leading him to where he's not a Captain, where in order to survive he has to do things he doesn't like or ever imagine he would have to do. He's done some pretty bad things but through it all he's had this image of himself deep down as a Good person (not just pretty alright, he was joking). He could steal because the end game was always to do good. What if the things he had to do for that ideal got gradually worse and worse?
Also, for some Joss pain - he's always been in charge to some extent, always been able to fall back on Serenity... that's why he has to lose it. Mal without Serenity? Broken, alone, having to do really really bad things... almost a reverse on Book, a holding over the volcano.

Zoe - Service - in a way that's not a stretch to motherhood. I'm not sure she could stay at home if another war broke out though - she's military.

Simon - Truth, protecting Life. I can see him joining a new independence movement full time.

River - Sanity. I see her getting lost, just trying to get away from everyone, tired of Simon's constant attention, tired of running, and also; she wants to keep the crew safe and knows getting away from them safe guards them. So she wanders and eventually finds work that is as inconspicuous as possible, Paper Shuffler, Dock Worker, whatever to blend in. But... trouble always seems to find her and her "skills" always seem to be needed. Hard to hide when you are one of the 2 characters (Mal is the other) that the whole story of Firefly is centered around!

Jayne - Cashy money - I see the right woman getting Jayne to settle down and raise a family. Family was important to him. But not until season 7. In the end I see Jayne having the best, most stable relationship of any of them.

Kaylee - Finding love? But not Simon. That's a close proximity fling only, they're not compatible beyond that. BFFs. Kaylee's very young, she might end up following a charismatic fanatic for a while. After breaking with Simon and getting bored with Mal's petty thieving, she looks for something else where her skills and herself, are valued, and she finds that in a small rebel group - the forefront of a larger revolt that comes later. Only th

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:19 PM (P)

The breakout character Tyssa would sacrifice herself to save the ship, even though we would know that she would be back in the third film anyway.

We'd finally see an end to the overly soupy relationship between Zoe and Jayne which was really just demeaning to the both of them, if not the whole ship, and had been dragging us down for the last 3 seasons.

The outer rim coalition with the reavers would fall apart when they backstabbed us which will annoy all the viewers because we will wonder why River, who was acting as the bridge between them, didn't see it coming.

Mal's twin brother would die after impersonating Mal in a heroic action. Late comers will think this is cheesy, but those who had been with the show for some time saw it come from the moment he was wrong-handed.

Kaylee's gay realtionship with Inara will end mercifully when one of them dies pointlessly.

Saffron, the ship's pilot, will end up settling with Simon on a planet created in River's mind.

Taking Niska on as a crew-member, though the only mercifully thing to do, and logical from his perspective will turn out to have been disastrous for Serenity.

The tentacled things will turn out to be sweet and caring after all, and this will make some viewers ill, and other viewers, who always thought it was a mistake to mix in standard issue aliens will simply add them to their wall next to their Ewok dartboard.

When the alliance implodes into a black whole that they themselves created as a weapon, fans are a little irked at the show's failure to recognize the citizenry there as people, but remain convinced we haven't seen the last of Blue Sun based on a small 3 second shot at the end of the finale, that the rest of us felt wasn't necessary to reach that conclusion.
Hey, it's a TV show. That it delivers each week for 7 years without handing you mindless dribble would be a miracle.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

TWO

Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:21 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Seeing continued obsession with pairings between crew members is one of the fan wankiest things I wish would get ditched. If it's a "Joss thing" then it's the Joss thing I like the least. It's as if to say there's no one else in the entire 'verse, all that Story serves is how to mix and match, that FF is ultimately a soap opera with costumes. I love those characters, that's why I don't want to see them used like that. "Wouldn't it be neat if Mal and Kaylee got together??"

Some teens and twenty-somethings have an obsessive fascination with the sex lives of the famous. Personally, I don't and I don't want much of that mixed into my Sci-Fi shows; I'm already getting enough in the real world. I'd be happy if Firefly Season 2 through 7 had a little less than Season 1 about the mating dances between Inara/Mal, Mal/Kaylee, Kaylee/Simon, Zoe/Mister ? , River/Jayne. Jayne! Was there ever someone more unsuitable for a genius? Only Jayne/Zoe could be worse. Zoe switching from Wash to Jayne is so very wrong.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

BYTEMITE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Ewww... that is actually the farthest thing from why I watched Firefly, and seeing continued obsession with pairings between crew members is one of the fan wankiest things I wish would get ditched.

Yeah... Guilty as charged. It's silly, I know. Normally I've always been more about the action, and all this romance stuff I admit I focus on is just embarrassing. It's not that the stuff isn't there, this is a swashbuckling space opera and all, but all out of proportion to the much more predominating elements of the show. Such as crime, day-to-day struggle and anti-authoritarianism.

But at least we don't fight so much anymore. The fans of each pairing mostly just keep to themselves now. So that's good. The ship to ship combat you just saw was fairly mild compared to some battles I've seen.

Quote:
completely unique to the 'verse - coupling stories are so un-unique. Sorry!

Well, to be fair, Joss' coupling stories generally aren't remotely like the predictable rom-coms or sit-coms. I mean, lookit Our Mrs. Reynolds. That was a coupling story, and a friggin' hilarious and twisted one.

There's ways to write one and have it still be unexpected. Probably one of the reasons Joss gets as wide a range an audience as he does is that he can turn any story on it's head and have it be enjoyable.

So there probably also has to be some fanfiction writers who can manage the same even with ship pairings.

Just kinda have to stand and defend my fellow authors a little here, so don't mind me. Fanfic is kinda whats been keeping the firefly verse going for a while now, and a LOT of that is shipping.

Quote:
not just limiting the possibilities to who we know.

Sure. I'd really like to see the futuristic take on a Native American character, seeing how there's so many Western elements at play here. Probably they'd be so well intermingled with the population at that point you wouldn't see much difference behaviour wise, but every now and then there'd be just a hint of an alternative perspective. Plus then you can explore stories about Alliance taking away children "for their own good," like the old Christian missionaries and the government used to do.

Mal: Agree with the loss of Serenity (I like the idea of them sacrificing Serenity to get at Blue Sun like I said before), although I'm not sure how Mal could sink much lower in his down-ward spiral and still be on a hero arc.

And if he's not on a hero arc, then it just becomes gratuitous angst. Kudos for recognizing the downward spiral, though.

I also disagree on Mal's self-image, I don't think he believes he's actually a good person at all. He seems to beat himself up pretty thoroughly to me, and for all he tries to act enthusiastic about the crime and sticking it to the man, it's also clear to me that he's never been able to force himself to ignore that what he does probably hurts people less fortunate than him. He tries to take only mildly unethical jobs as a balm for his conscience, but his conscience is still kinda limping along with it.

Jose Molina explored the possibilities of Mal without a ship in Take the Sky, have you read it? It's pretty good. In a way Mal stops being a hero like you've suggested, but not in the way you'd expect.

I also like Mal desperate struggle stories though, especially involving the loss of Serenity. Maybe I'll link you this one really good fanfiction where they crash into some valuable mineral real estate, and the people who own the excavation are threatening to blow up Serenity unless Mal goes and hunts down some rebels and bandits. I bet you'd like it.

River: That sounds good.

Jayne: What, really? Jayne in a relationship loses what's so much fun and cool about Jayne. Hmm.

Plus he can barely stand seeing Zoe and Wash when they're all mature and loving. In the comics he suggests that they're going to make him ill if they keep at it much lon

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well, to be fair, Joss' coupling stories generally aren't remotely like the predictable rom-coms or sit-coms. I mean, lookit Our Mrs. Reynolds. That was a coupling story, and a friggin' hilarious and twisted one.

Absolutely agree with you on that example, and if I'm going to trust anyone with making relationships unique it would be Joss. I think I react negatively even more because Fillion catches a new show and it's "will they get together?" Gah! And in FF's case, there's so much to that 'verse to explore.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal: Agree with the loss of Serenity (I like the idea of them sacrificing Serenity to get at Blue Sun like I said before), although I'm not sure how Mal could sink much lower in his down-ward spiral and still be on a hero arc.

And if he's not on a hero arc, then it just becomes gratuitous angst. Kudos for recognizing the downward spiral, though.

That's been one of the questions of the show for me is: is Mal a Hero? In the movie I would say no question, he sure was acting like one. In the series he seemed to flirt with that but ultimately - and this is why I liked him - he seemed more selfishly motivated.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I also disagree on Mal's self-image, I don't think he believes he's actually a good person at all. He seems to beat himself up pretty thoroughly to me, and for all he tries to act enthusiastic about the crime and sticking it to the man, it's also clear to me that he's never been able to force himself to ignore that what he does probably hurts people less fortunate than him. He tries to take only mildly unethical jobs as a balm for his conscience, but his conscience is still kinda limping along with it.

I think his quick decision in The Train Job to return the stolen medicine - as he says, "no other option," gave me the impression that that's who he thinks he is, a Good Man, at least toward the people scratching out a living.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jose Molina explored the possibilities of Mal without a ship in Take the Sky, have you read it? It's pretty good. In a way Mal stops being a hero like you've suggested, but not in the way you'd expect.

I also like Mal desperate struggle stories though, especially involving the loss of Serenity. Maybe I'll link you this one really good fanfiction where they crash into some valuable mineral real estate, and the people who own the excavation are threatening to blow up Serenity unless Mal goes and hunts down some rebels and bandits. I bet you'd like it.

I haven't read the story by Molina - I'll have to find it. I'd be interested in that link too, thx - I've only read a few fanfics and mostly Gwek & Crew's http://stillflying.net which I really enjoyed.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jayne: What, really? Jayne in a relationship loses what's so much fun and cool about Jayne. Hmm.
Plus he can barely stand seeing Zoe and Wash when they're all mature and loving. In the comics he suggests that they're going to make him ill if they keep at it much longer. I don't think Jayne Cobb has much romance, companionship (and not the guild kind), or even appreciation for either in him.

I said not until season 7! I agree; I don't want to lose what's great about Jayne - an almost professional pride in being course and underhanded, and yet he can be loyal… to a point. No romance? Did you see how sweetly he talked to that "whore" about what order to give him his guns when the fighting got started? He has it in him.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Inara: A combination of independence, wanting to see the verse, and just trying to keep going for as long as she can. But she's getting tired, very tired, and sometimes just living isn't all that easy.

This is a

VERASAMUELS

Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:35 PM (P)

And eventually, more or less what I wrote in my epic long fanfic arc:-

Jayne finding a steady woman [they get married later]

A Maori warrior priest who helps River

The truth about the Companion set up revealed

Inara gives up being a Companion as a result [she doesn't know about the truth beforehand]

Jayne's parents

The Alliance get feisty

The Triad capture Jayne and his woman

An oriental female sensei [and prostitute] helps the crew with martial arts' training

Thrilling heroics

The Mudders' Jayne bot revealed

Browncoat Uprising [think 'Les Miserables' barricade dialled up to 11]

Reaver Hunter squad

Hold out at the great Stronghold

Mal strongarmed/forced into being the new 'Verse President [he'd HATE that!]

River finds her prince and rescues him from a high tower

A journey along a river through the desert

Some of The Reavers adapting into more of an ant colony set-up

Carnival Fireflies [like a travelling circus]

Rescue of a whole lot of children from some kind of slavery/prison

A new settlement on Jayne's home planet, with a land based home for the remaining crew and offspring, plus a custom made orphanage for all those children.

A bar fight with a f*ck load of cutlery ['Hot Fuzz' !]

Serenity doing simple jobs hauling food and other supplies to and from new settlement

20 odd years later:

River now has a f/f romantic relationship.

Mal is older, greyer and alone, but content.

One of Kaylee's sons gets together with Zoe's daughter

Zoe in new relationship with a friend of Maori priest. No more babies, though.

Jayne and his wife surrounded by large numbers of adopted kids and their offspring. He's also older, more scarred and greyer, but happy.

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

BYTEMITE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:01 PM (P)

I'm going to reign in my initial urge to gush for hours about Inara, I think everyone will appreciate that.

Quick note though: much as Joss is pretty ambiguous between his decrying exploitation and glorifying it, I don't think in this case it's Inara's profession that supposed to be the source of the admiration. While I don't think her profession is wrong, and I'm not one of those who believes the Guild is evil, I also get the impression that the upper crust types who just admire her for being a Companion are pretty shallow, and also in a number of cases a little backhanded.

Suffice to say tragedy yes. Though considering how secretive Joss and Co are being even after the leak, I'm starting to wonder.

Quote:
No romance? Did you see how sweetly he talked to that "whore" about what order to give him his guns when the fighting got started? He has it in him.

Unusual definition you got there... Really, that just says to me that Jayne isn't a woman abuser, more than he has a hankering or inclination to settle down with just one lady and be a family man. Maybe he'll turn into a polygamist after rescuing a whole brothel, because I have trouble imagining him and monogamy in the same sentence.

I also notice he has trust issues, but that's probably blatantly stating the obvious.

Quote:
I think I react negatively even more because Fillion catches a new show and it's "will they get together?"

Erg. Yeah. It was started out an okay cop show, I still like the comedy, but the thematics and the side focus started to bug me about the middle of season 2. A show should still be able to come up with plots even after relationship tension gets resolved, and not resolving it starts to get a little ridiculous.

Quote:
In the series he seemed to flirt with that but ultimately - and this is why I liked him - he seemed more selfishly motivated.

Would you believe I had this very argument with the person who introduced me to Firefly not one week ago?

Only we were using terms from D&D (Yes, I'm a geek), like "Is Mal Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral?" Neutral is normally defined by a person looking out for themselves (and possibly family/friends/romantic interests) in a non-malicious manner. We both agreed that Jayne, at least, is classic Chaotic Neutral. But Mal is more "good" than Jayne, so where is his alignment?

Eventually we agreed that both interpretations were probably valid. I still say a lot of his more selfish seeming moments are actually a jerk-ass facade and feeble excuses though, such as telling Book he was keeping River (and Simon) on for the fare they could pay them, when their bank accounts had been frozen by then.

I think he needs to think he's bad for various reasons, not least of which is guilt over people who have died under his command and potentially guilt about his crisis of faith. He's lying to himself about things. Actually, I think a lot of the characters on Serenity are lying to themselves about things, which is part of what makes them so interesting.

Quote:
I think his quick decision in The Train Job to return the stolen medicine - as he says, "no other option," gave me the impression that that's who he thinks he is, a Good Man, at least toward the people scratching out a living.

I think we're seeing actual Mal then. The facade Mal tries to be bad, but the actual Mal can't help doing the right thing when he's faced with it. Later on I imagine Mal reasoned it away as, "Well, of course we had to give the medicine back. They woulda put us in jail. Again." But the Sherriff saw the real, the raw, and let him go.

Quote:
I'd be interested in that link too

I'll get it for you tonight, it's on my favourites list on fanfiction.net so it shouldn't take long.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:48 PM (P)

I'm going to endorse whoever said Jayne+Saffron=<3 This would be the most entertaining relationship I can picture.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:27 PM (P)

Jayne falls for a trap set by Saffron, intended for the rest of the crew, or at least Mal. He wakes up drugged and naked with an irate redhead, who we quickly find out has been tracked down by a former surviving husband and his goons. They have to shoot their way out, and race to steal transport off world, with Saffron beating out Jayne in the end and leaving him in some real peril.

So begins the story of a loathe that will last the ages as an unfettered gunman and viciously cunning femme fatale chase each other across the verse stealing, brawling, and getting into compromising positions.

Sometimes with other people!

The series will explore the depths of Jayne's guile and reveal the terrible secret of why Saffron is batnuts. Each episode opens with a recap, in the form of a testosterone laden letter to home, from Jayne, where he exaggerates his successes and lies about the bad turns of the previous episode.

MACBAKER

Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:07 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
It's not often a TV has the chance to end they way the creators envisage. Such is the case with our beloved Firefly.
So I'm wondering, in an ideal world had Firefly run it's course of the supposed seven seasons, what finalé can you envisage where you as a viewer would have been satisfied with it's conclusion.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

Simple Joss math is needed here. Nine characters, one killed off per season in some pointless and shocking manner, leaving Zoe and River alone on the ship in the series finale, doing a "Thelma & Louise" with Serenity into the last remaining Alliance Cityship, destroying it and freeing the Verse from Alliance meddling once and for all!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:17 PM (P)

I like Byte's Jayne/Saffron story, he wanted her ... now she's got him. :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 25, 2011 1:58 AM (P)

And here's where I show my not-such-a-good-fan-wanker side. I think it's silly to guess details, because the only thing we can be sure about is that the verse seven years later would be completely different and completely unexpected. Who the hell watched the first season of Angle and thought Angel would end up running the evil law firm, and have a son who'd had an evil grandchild thing with Cordie then gone crazy? Who watched the first season of Buffy and figured... well, any damned thing that happened by Season 7?

The only things to be sure of about Firefly's unrealized future: major events would have changed the main characters. They would have ended up in situations that no one would expect from the scant info of 14 episodes. They would have made bizarre decisions that really wouldn't be so bizarre given the events of seasons 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. New characters would've appeared and played major roles, and they'd be as beloved as the ones we met in season 1. There would have been entirely new settings, new "homes", new twists, new plots.

But please gods of Joss sci-fi fiction, those new plots would never ever be purely based on who's bopping who. Thank you, pizmo, for calling that out. There is so much more to this show than soap opera pairings, and it grieves me to see people reducing it to that. Characters bumping uglies with other characters is fun and all, but if that's all a story has it's nothing. The bizarre social and political background that Serenity floats through is where the real goods are at.

A-hem. OK, so after that rant I'll make one guess: this plot was going towards "bigger" things, ie Blue Sun and the Alliance. I think it would have gone there physically. As in, at least a few of our favorite characters would have lived in the Core, allowing Joss to reveal the dirty secrets and strange ways of the civilized worlds. Like Buffy got into and tore down the distant Watcher's Council, like Angel revealed Wolfram & Hart and TPTB, Mal and crew would have gone into and beyond Blue Sun and the Alliance.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Would you believe I had this very argument with the person who introduced me to Firefly not one week ago?

Only we were using terms from D&D (Yes, I'm a geek), like "Is Mal Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral?" Neutral is normally defined by a person looking out for themselves (and possibly family/friends/romantic interests) in a non-malicious manner. We both agreed that Jayne, at least, is classic Chaotic Neutral. But Mal is more "good" than Jayne, so where is his alignment?

Eventually we agreed that both interpretations were probably valid. I still say a lot of his more selfish seeming moments are actually a jerk-ass facade and feeble excuses though, such as telling Book he was keeping River (and Simon) on for the fare they could pay them, when their bank accounts had been frozen by then.

I think he needs to think he's bad for various reasons, not least of which is guilt over people who have died under his command and potentially guilt about his crisis of faith. He's lying to himself about things. Actually, I think a lot of the characters on Serenity are lying to themselves about things, which is part of what makes them so interesting.

"Lying to themselves about things" = human condition. I'd bet that the most trustable, straight arrow poster here does that on a regular basis. Mal has some lame, jerky moments for sure, but he always seems to salvage it by being the coolest Captain (and maybe luckiest in a way) that you'd want to be with. I didn't say Best Captain (Picard?) but funny enough, being imperfect also makes him cool. Do people use "cool" to mean cool any more? Is there a new post 2010 word for "cool?"

I think you have touched on something that never gets enough mention unless in fanfic, and I don't read near enough, so maybe my bad; "not least of which is guilt over people who have died under his command." He's unavoidably shaped by that trauma. When I hear him say, "Do the job" that's always seemed related to that experience, like, "OK, new rules. Never again. I'm never going to risk so much for so many to lose so much ever again." "Do the job" means, "I'm only going to do what I have to for my immediate, much smaller crew, and NO ONE ELSE. See this circle? If you are outside of it, die or live or make mud pies, I could care less." Caring outside of it costs too much and gives nothing back. Never again. "Do the job." And yet, for some reason, he can't always seem to stick to that.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

DREAMTROVE

Friday, March 25, 2011 3:04 AM (P)

Mal, thanks, well put. See my post above. Also, ECGordon who beat me to it.

Fact is, at just over a dozen eps in:

Buffy's love was Angel. Spike was not a character. Anya was not a character. Faith was not a character. There was only one slayer. Willow was not a witch. Andrew was not a character. The First was not the enemy, the Magic Box was not a location, Sunnydale High was a location, Cordelia was a major character, who was not yet dating Xander, as wasn't Anya, Willow was not gay, and even not yet dating Oz.

Similarly:

Farscape, Scorpius was not an ally, nor an enemy, nor a character. Neither was Graza. Neither was Granny three-eyes, nor Sikozu, nor Jool. Chiana wasn't even a character. The main mission was not defeating the Scarrans, (what's a scarran?) Or peace with peacekeepers, it was getting back to Earth. Zaan was a character, as was Krais.

Lexx was not battling Prince, but his Divine Shadow, and while Prince is an awesome enemy, I'm afraid this time His Divine Shadow is one of my all time favorite enemies.

By the time Blake's 7 reaches it's conclusion, Blake hasn't been a character in ages, and there has been a fairly major cast change.

Those are the only four space pirate genre shows I can think of unless you count red dwarf which I don't really because it's a sitcom and not really a space opera.

Bebop: Eddie and Ein were not characters until fairly late.

Seriously though, if the Mal-Inara romance carried on for 7 seasons I'd go insane-r.

Angel, Illyria was not a character, neither was Lorn, I don't even think Gunn was a character, we didn't work for Wolfram and Hart, Leslie and Lila did, and they were our enemies. There was no big cat upstairs, but a little girl, or something ancient and evil that liked to dress up as a little girl. Wes was not a character, and neither was Spike.

So, yes, people would be working for the Alliance, and Blue Sun. I should'a seen that coming. Kudos.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

BYTEMITE

Friday, March 25, 2011 3:20 AM (P)

:)

Also, I found the story. It's longish, but, well, it has lots of merits.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1996576/1/Reliance

DT: "Seriously though, if the Mal-Inara romance carried on for 7 seasons I'd go insane-r."

Of course. I don't think even the most die-hard of my fellow shippers thinks that the will-they-won't-they would drag on THAT long... Or even that there isn't a likelyhood that they'd break up several times and have side pairings.

But, I've tried to not comment much on this and indulge in the behaviour that has gotten us so rebuked.

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, March 25, 2011 3:47 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
:)

Also, I found the story. It's longish, but, well, it has lots of merits.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1996576/1/Reliance

DT: "Seriously though, if the Mal-Inara romance carried on for 7 seasons I'd go insane-r."

Of course. I don't think even the most die-hard of my fellow shippers thinks that the will-they-won't-they would drag on THAT long... Or even that there isn't a likelyhood that they'd break up several times and have side pairings.

But, I've tried to not comment much on this and indulge in the behaviour that has gotten us so rebuked.

Thank you Byte, I'm looking forward to reading this.

DT - you seem in a huff about this stuff, sometimes I think you need a purpoise.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 25, 2011 4:25 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
So, yes, people would be working for the Alliance, and Blue Sun. I should'a seen that coming. Kudos.

Good summary of other series DT. I guess I should admit that Buffy and Angel underwent huge changes in part because Joss was figuring out cast size as he went (he admitted as much on some commentary or another.) So maybe he didn't plan such a drastic expansion of cast for Firefly. But there had to be some changes. You can't have 7 seasons of the same space cowboy adventures.

BTW, I'm not thinking of the crew working for the Alliance necessarily. Just being near it or inside its society in some way. And there would likely be recurring characters on that side of the line. It was just such a big hook, all the hints at the big bad Blue Sun. The Core provides a perfect contrast of setting and change of tone and expansion of plot from what we saw. Joss had to mean to go there, imho.

Mal and Inara splitsville? Sadly, I think so. And I agree that they wouldn't split up just for other pairings within the existing characters. Same ship, same people, different sleeping arrangements? Nah. It just doesn't grab me.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

BYTEMITE

Friday, March 25, 2011 4:28 AM (P)

Oh, no worries. :) DT is just giving me a little jab from a conversation we had way back. He feels the same way most do about the shipping sometimes going too far, only moreso. Funny enough, the two of us AGREED on the actual ships likely to be seen in the show, it's just he found the one I like kinda annoying. But he made some good points too: such as about Mal being kinda pathetic, particularly in regards to this.

BYTEMITE

Friday, March 25, 2011 5:07 AM (P)

Could be fun though, just think, we could be having all sorts of shipping fights with new characters in the near future!

*Everyone else cringes in dread*

Interesting, about Blue Sun. I've heard people speculate that Gabriel Tam works for them in middle-to-upper management, enough to be fairly well off.

Inara and Zoe could be possibilities too, they have some readily apparent medical hooks that could force them into working against the crew. Jayne might betray them as well. Can't imagine any of the other characters pulling that though.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:17 PM (P)

Haven't been around for a while, so I just figured out that the switch to 2.0 is on. I'm giving it a go. Looks nice!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting, about Blue Sun. I've heard people speculate that Gabriel Tam works for them in middle-to-upper management, enough to be fairly well off.

Inara and Zoe could be possibilities too, they have some readily apparent medical hooks that could force them into working against the crew. Jayne might betray them as well. Can't imagine any of the other characters pulling that though.

I don't at all mean they'd work against the crew! It's more likely they'd work for it. Blue Sun has some secrets looked away in all those food cans, and River knows at least something about it. Could be that a year or two after Miranda they'd end up chasing Blue Sun down in some way. (I don't mean they'd turn all Rebel warriors. Most likely they'd be unwillingly pushed into it, like what happened in the movie.) But it could be that Inara would use her connections and even her sickness to worm her way into Blue Sun. Because who would put security on a sick, helpless, harmless little Companion?

Could also be that Simon, if he's truly off the hook, would go with her to work in his own way. Maybe on the Blue Sun problem, maybe something different. Maybe he'd get more info about how to "fix" River. And maybe Jayne or Kaylee would also go, providing the eyes of the "hick" taking in the big city, as it were. This splinter of the crew would get to know new characters in the Core, perhaps good guys, perhaps bad guys, more likely somewhere in between and changing from good to bad or bad to good as time goes on.

And maybe relationships within our splinter would change as this goes on. They'd develop new dynamics if they spent so much time together, away from the rest. I so do not mean that this would be romantic. Sure, it could end up there, but that's not the point of it all.

OK. Posting in 2.0 has been tried. I like! But I guess I need a new signature. Hmm.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:23 PM (P)

Originally posted by mal4prez:

Quote:
I think it's silly to guess details

You realise you just went and did that, right?

But I agree. Few could stand seven seasons of Mal and Inara....
...five seasons is my limit.
OK six max!
But that's it!

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

MAL4PREZ

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
I think it's silly to guess details

You realise you just went and did that, right?

Not so much. I was careful to speak in generalities with lots of maybes and coulds. It need not be the characters I said doing exactly what I said, and the only reason I got into that much pseudo-detail was because the general idea of my guess was being understood. I do not think anyone would work against the rest of the crew.

My only points: by season 7 we'd see more of the Core, explore the Alliance and Blue Sun, and have new characters within that frame.

The details could be an infinity of possibilities. I guess, including some of the crew changing sides. But that's not my favorite.

Now why isn't my avatar getting fixed? I'll try again... A-ha! Got it.

BYTEMITE

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:49 PM (P)

Oh, I don't think Inara would either, that anyone would. It would have to be very extenuating circumstances, such as in the movie, when it's implied abuse of the Alliance soldiers towards her students forces her to call Mal into a trap. But she does warn him, and I think she really didn't expect him to come. So on the other hand, she was also perfectly willing to sacrifice herself, again (see Atherton).

She would not willingly or out-and-out betray them, and might try to spin something to her advantage. But poor Inara, sometimes, for all her companion training, she can be just a little naive about the duplicity that people are capable of. I do think she could be tricked.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, March 25, 2011 2:52 PM (P)

I vote in the plucky alien girl who drags us into her planetary or interplanetary "another war we didn't need" conflict on some emotional hook

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

SAFFFFF

Wednesday, April 6, 2011 8:38 AM (P)

It can still finish out the seven seasons. Just leave the ending as it was and bring back Walsh Book and continue the series after show 14. The actors haven't aged that much besides we'd all get used to their looks very quickly.