Sometimes there's a post so good...

POSTED BY: Hardware
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 00:32
VIEWED: 9182
PAGE 1 of 1

HARDWARE

Monday, May 2, 2011 2:53 PM (P)

Sometimes you run into a post so good that you need to just spread it as far as you can.

This comes from Slashdot, in a thread regarding the death of Osama Bin Laden.

Quote:

circletimessquare wrote;
My last day of work at the World Trade Center was September 10, 2001. I remember turning around, looking at a lone guitarist playing near that fountain with the Globe sculpture, it was a beautiful Monday night, around 9 pm. I had worked late, so I was going to show up late to work on Tuesday. I woke up to my phone ringing off the hook. I lost my job, but compared to what others lost, I lost nothing.

The people who died that day were liberal and conservative, but all were American. Bin Laden hated us all, just because we were American. So please, no political games here. This isn't about left and right, this is about a cowardly attack on all of us, as Americans. As a hardcore liberal, I embrace my fellow Americans who are conservative on this good news for us all.

Come together, as Americans, left and right, lose the useless political snark and sniping, and celebrate this asshole's death. Good fucking riddance.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, May 2, 2011 4:32 PM (P)

Would you like a shovel with that load of bolus ?

He didn't hate us "because we were american", he hated us cause we fucked him and his country over, broke our promises, left em swinging in the breeze when the Soviets pulled out, on top of a long history of exploitation and abuse going back well over fifty years.

There's also no evidence linking him to the events of 9-11, for a fact he denied it and as much shit as he liked talking - cause I'll give you that he really was a murderous dick and showboating asswipe, I can't see him not takin credit for it if he had anything at all to DO with it.

The guy we *DID* charge, who's sitting in a federal supermax right now, is some dickheaded Kuwaiti financier with links to the Carlyle Group, whom I don't really consider guilty so much as ignorant in that they turned a blind eye to Saudi payoffs of shitheels like Osama, Khalid-Sheik-Mohammed, and Ramzi Youssef, the latter two being far more "guilty" in the sense that they were directly involved in the Bojinka concept plans which were recovered in a by the book search with a properly served warrant back when the american DSS and Pakistani ISI arrested Khalid-Shiek-Mohammed on an outstanding warrant for his many crimes.
(and for the moment, we'll put aside where he got the bomb in 1993, unless you want to go there.)

Sure, the world is prolly a better place with Osama dead, but since that happened back in the second week of December 2001, and we been bullshitting ourselves with this Emmanuel Goldstein fearmongering, at least accepting that he's gone is something - albeit a bit too late to amend the damage WE caused to ourselves and others, far in excess of anything OBL could have ever done to us, which was exactly his plan, and we fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

HOWEVER - This kind of who-cares-about-the-details STUPID FUCKING IGNORANCE, is *HOW* we wound up with the fucking Patriot Act, the TSA and the ever so appropriately named gaterape-groping and a whole bunch of our freedoms and the things that ever made America worth a damn pissed right down the drain, because no one QUESTIONED it, for fear of being accused all McCarthy-like, of disloyalty or politicking.

I *DO* care about the details, CAUSE THEY FUCKING MATTER.

So what, we acknowledged today the death of a guy who we really wanted dead, not because of anything he said or did, so much, but that he was a living example of our own actions coming back to bite us on the ass - we made him, trained and financed his Mujas to kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan and made all kinds of promises we didn't ever hold up to, but now he's conveniently not around to tell his side of the story anymore, and that more than anything else is what is being celebrated here - hoorah, the guy we screwed over who never let us forget is finally gone, yippee.

And all with a nice, tidy and convenient story which doesn't require producing any proof because nobody other than bastards like me questions it.

All this shit as of late is all too convenient, all too suspicious, to go unchallenged, from the assassination of Bhutto, to the incident with "Raymond Davis" which you've no doubt forgotten just as expected when the story was buried, to Petraeus being placed in charge of the CIA, it paints a really ugly picture of what we're really doing over there and why.

So yeah, you better question it - but if you prefer to dance on the supposed corpse of some dickhead who never could have done us shit for damage without us doing most of it for him, right on cue like a monkey dancing to the organ grinders tune, you go right ahead and do that.

Cause if you think this is going to really matter, if you think that we'll actually pull the hell out of such a lucrative and convenient conflict, or hand back any of the freedoms we pissed away while the lot of you were dancing to the masters tune instead of holding them to the question - you're dreaming.

And in your slumber, being robbed blind of everything that ever mattered worth a damn, by the very folk who claim to be protecting you.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 2, 2011 5:03 PM (P)

I wanted to point out a logical fallacy: The crime is horrible, ergo, the suspect is guilty.

Select to view spoiler:

"Need a shovel" is a nice one. Might go on my list of terseties.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 2, 2011 5:11 PM (P)

Thank you DT and Frem.

This kind of "We are all just American's so let's hug each other and celebrate the death of an enemy" is the kind of horsepuckies that enables us to commit even more stupidities.

HARDWARE

Monday, May 2, 2011 5:34 PM (P)

Oh yes, how tragic. We're the big bad Americans. We feel so guilty because we can actually make our systems work.

Sorry, time for you children to WAKE THE FUCK UP.

OBL and a whole bunch of his sand-workshipping kinsmen would love to kill you, and your children and run your women off to slavery.

It's in the fuck koran for Christ's sake! They have a waiver on any sin when it comes to fucking over infidels. Lie, cheat, steal, kill, screw over, it's all good with their Imams.

So, if you want me to apologize because we stomped the life out of a cockroach, you're going to be waiting a long, long time.

The only regret I have is that they didn't throw his body to the hogs.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

1KIKI

Monday, May 2, 2011 5:39 PM (P)

No one ever goes to war 'cause they have an 'idea'. They go to war over resources and power, or the lack of them. Change that and it wouldn't matter what the Koran says, war would just not be worth it.

BYTEMITE

Monday, May 2, 2011 5:46 PM (P)

@ thread

SIGNYM

Monday, May 2, 2011 6:13 PM (P)

Quote:
It's in the fuck koran for Christ's sake! They have a waiver on any sin when it comes to fucking over infidels. Lie, cheat, steal, kill, screw over, it's all good with their Imams.

Jews too. The same thing is in the OT. And look at our Crusades, and the way we wiped out native populations for God, gold, and glory. All part of that lovely militaristic Judeo-Xtian-Muslim heritage.

BTW- Not apologizing at all. But WTF are we doing in THEIR countries? How would YOU feel if the Saudis decided they would set up an army base in Texas, and then took over Washington and rewrote our laws to be acceptable to them? Goose sauce= gander sauce, no?

Hardware, as an exercise in logic why don't you try re-framing things? For example, in anti-abortion discussions, every time you read the word "abortion" substitute "war" or "death penalty". In discussions about "terrorists", every time you read the word "terrorist" substitute the phrase "American military" or "police". You might see that the same arguments and logic apply in different contexts. Perhaps, logically, there is no separation.

FWIW I'm relieved that he's dead. That is one less boogeyman to hype people up with. But I don't kid myself that this spells an end to jihadism specifically or terrorism in general.

KIRKULES

Monday, May 2, 2011 8:15 PM (P)

I think after a rocky start Barak Obama has come to the realization that when it comes to the war on Islamist terror the Bush administration had it right for the most part. Bush fell short on persuing terorists in Pakistan while Obama has done so admirably.

I love it when the libs here show their true colors, they hate America so much the excuse the murder of 3000 Americans. Its makes me sick, but I've come to expect it from the sick fucks here.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 2, 2011 8:34 PM (P)

I've met jihadists, they didn't want to kill me, nor did they hate freedom. One went so far as to say that the infadel did not have souls... okay, that's a bit extreme. But do you really think there are no christians or jews who feel the same way (more or less) about muslims?

Both sides have preachers of hate that fill their heads with this sort of notion. What you really have to ask yourself is "Do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?"

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 2, 2011 8:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

I love it when the libs here show their true colors, they hate America so much the excuse the murder of 3000 Americans.

Kirk. Let me put it to you in a way you cannot possibly fail to understand. I knew people killed on 9.11. I suspect everyone in New York does. We're sick of radical ideologues making it their battlecry. We're not your political football. You don't think I care what happened? Why do you think I'm so ticked at the govt. over this. I did a lot of digging into this topic, and the more you look, the more certain you become that it was not OBL and the jihadists but someone a lot closer to home.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 2, 2011 9:36 PM (P)

I think this was a no-win situation for us ObL was dying, his organization was "degraded". We have made him a hero. Not sure that is a good move. It might have been better to bring him to trial.

By going into Pakistan w/o the SSI (Pakistani security, who would have surely warned ObL) we have just seriously pissed off a LOT of Pakistanis. First, we embarrassed them. There will surely be a lot of questions about how ObL could have moved into a compound w/o SSI knowing. Or, if they DID know, doing anything about it. Secondly, we have insulted their national sovereignty.

Pakistan isn't much of an ally, god knows. The SSI has been playing footsie with terrorists for a long, long time... the Afghani Taliban was set up with SSI help, and the SSI takes a cut of the heroin being traded cross-border. But Pakistan as an enemy might be worse.

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 2, 2011 9:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Would you like a shovel with that load of bolus ?

He didn't hate us "because we were american", he hated us cause we fucked him and his country over, broke our promises, left em swinging in the breeze when the Soviets pulled out, on top of a long history of exploitation and abuse going back well over fifty years.

I was unaware that Soviets ever WERE in S.Arabia, and then pulled out.

Quote:

There's also no evidence linking him to the events of 9-11, for a fact he denied it and as much shit as he liked talking - cause I'll give you that he really was a murderous dick and showboating asswipe, I can't see him not takin credit for it if he had anything at all to DO with it..

And here's the point where I'm reminded just how completely out of touch you are with reality.

Say goodnight, Gracie.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, May 2, 2011 9:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Sometimes you run into a post so good that you need to just spread it as far as you can.

This comes from Slashdot, in a thread regarding the death of Osama Bin Laden.

Quote:

circletimessquare wrote;

The people who died that day were liberal and conservative, but all were American.

Ahem, actually not true.

Apart from the approximately 2,669 United States casualties, 372 foreign nationals (excluding the nineteen perpetrators), representing just over 10% of the total number of deaths, also perished in the attacks. The following is a list of their nationalities (not accounting for some cases of dual citizenship). By far the foreign country with the largest loss of life was the United Kingdom, with 67 deaths (including the overseas territory of Bermuda). India lost 41, South Korea lost 28 and Canada and Japan lost 24 each. Colombia lost seventeen and Jamaica, Mexico and the Philippines lost sixteen each. Australia and Germany lost eleven each, while Italy lost ten.
wiki

PEACEKEEPER

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:00 PM (P)

What strikes me as rather strange, is that a vast superpower nation such as the USA, is throwing a big party because they have taken 10 years to kill ONE Man. Do you think that the whole Islamic terrorist shit is now going to collapse and fold because Bin Laden is dead? Is there no more organisation below Bin Laden?
I'm sorry, but your Government is easily pleased.
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.
I'm shedding no tears over his death, but partying in the streets over one man???It's a pretty pathetic effort IMO.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

SKYWALKEN

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Come together, as Americans, left and right, lose the useless political snark and sniping, and celebrate this asshole's death.

Right on!!!

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

It might have been better to bring him to trial.

Difficult to do with dead people

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:15 PM (P)

The celebrations are about as organic as they come. The ones I know of occurring are in NYC, at the Mets / Phillies baseball game , and in D.C...

I'm glad he's dead. Maybe the significance of it all hasn't really sunk in yet. I don't know. I'm not 'elated', and do find the sudden outburst a bit curious, but then I'm not FROM NYC, and didn't live through it, as they did. And continue, still, to do so.

I'm personally more subdued. Usama has long been rendered impotent as a 'leader', but still had to answer for his crimes. 10 years or 100 years, doesn't matter. He had his comin', and I'm proud that he was put down, by our own military. ( That he was hiding behind a *woman, in a last ditch effort to have others die for his sins, is a prime example of who this piece of debris really was, at the very end )

And lay off the 'one man' nonsense. Hitler was ' one man'. Saddam was 'one man'. Iraqis danced in the streets when he was caught... .Usama is the face of modern day evil. Any time that good defeats evil, is a very good thing. Sorry you don't GET it, but that's o.k. Usama is dead, and that's all that really matters.

* Turns out that the woman was his own wife. Sorry, but most men would stand in FRONT of their wives, when bullets start flying. This gutless piece of shit used his wife ( his property ) as a human shield.

Honor be unto him....

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

1KIKI

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:18 PM (P)

Well, dead men tell no tales.

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:29 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well, dead men tell no tales.

Nope. But any files they may have on their computers...

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

THEHAPPYTRADER

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
What strikes me as rather strange, is that a vast superpower nation such as the USA, is throwing a big party because they have taken 10 years to kill ONE Man. Do you think that the whole Islamic terrorist shit is now going to collapse and fold because Bin Laden is dead? Is there no more organisation below Bin Laden?
I'm sorry, but your Government is easily pleased.
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.
I'm shedding no tears over his death, but partying in the streets over one man???It's a pretty pathetic effort IMO.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

I wasn't aware this became a national holiday. I certainly wasn't let out of work for it. Not that I would want to celebrate another person's death, regardless of how evil I considered them. Still, I get your point. It wasn't a royal wedding after all

1KIKI

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:41 PM (P)

Oh, just to chime in and then I'm outa' here: there is as much evidence of bin Laden's guilt for 9/11 as there is for Hussein's WMDs. In other words - nada. And, I'm detecting a Bush administration patten here which goes: start a war and look for reasons later. And, uh, fail to find any evidence. Geeeeze. What a dunce.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:47 PM (P)

Quote:
And lay off the 'one man' nonsense. Hitler was ' one man'. Saddam was 'one man'. Iraqis danced in the streets when he was caught... .Usama is the face of modern day evil. Any time that good defeats evil, is a very good thing.

In the AI thread we talk about the capabilities of "one man". I said in that thread- and I repeat here- even the most sociopathic among us depend on the cooperation of many others to further their own goals.

One man ranting about evil Jewish bankers would simply be a lonely soapbox orator without the cooperation of millions. The fact of war is not an indication of human aggression as much as it is an indication of cooperation.

It's that whole libertarian fantasy of "the individual"; like Ayn Rand's protagonists. Anything that we do that is significant, we do collectively. A lone individual doesn't have enough power. They may as well be jacking off in a corner.

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 2, 2011 10:57 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

It's that whole libertarian fantasy of "the individual"; like Ayn Rand's protagonists. Anything that we do that is significant, we do collectively. A lone individual doesn't have enough power. They may as well be jacking off in a corner.

Wow... project irrelevant and non related issues much ?

I said UBL was the FACE of evil, not the total embodiment of it. When folks who riot over his death ( and yes, that's exactly what is going on in places like Pakistan ) carry signs, there's HIS face. That's the point.

That zealots follow leaders like Hitler, Saddam or Usama, has nothing to do w/ what Ayn Rand was talking about, at all.

Curious insight into your thinking ,but you completely miss the mark here.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

BYTEMITE

Monday, May 2, 2011 11:51 PM (P)

Hmm. I thought this thread was turning into flamebait, maybe it wasn't.

The gatherings and jubilation seem a little much, not that I could or would have prevented them. Reminded me of some of the celebrations in the Middle East whenever America gets some bad luck.

Sometimes it almost seems like people lack awareness of what people on their own side are doing, and how something like this could provoke and perpetuate feud violence.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:03 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. I thought this thread was turning into flamebait, maybe it wasn't.

The gatherings and jubilation seem a little much, not that I could or would have prevented them. Reminded me of some of the celebrations in the Middle East whenever America gets some bad luck.

Sometimes it almost seems like people lack awareness of what people on their own side are doing, and how something like this could provoke and perpetuate feud violence.

I'm trying to think of a time when this sort of spontaneous celebration has occurred. Other than New Yorkers and in D.C., I don't know that there was much in the way of open celebration. There wasn't wide spread talk of it on FB, least not that I saw. But I'm not all that heavy into FB or Twitter....

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:39 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. I thought this thread was turning into flamebait, maybe it wasn't.

The gatherings and jubilation seem a little much, not that I could or would have prevented them. Reminded me of some of the celebrations in the Middle East whenever America gets some bad luck.

Sometimes it almost seems like people lack awareness of what people on their own side are doing, and how something like this could provoke and perpetuate feud violence.

I'm trying to think of a time when this sort of spontaneous celebration has occurred. Other than New Yorkers and in D.C., I don't know that there was much in the way of open celebration. There wasn't wide spread talk of it on FB, least not that I saw. But I'm not all that heavy into FB or Twitter....

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

Each and every time Fidel Castro has died, sneezed, or been hospitalized, Miami experiences a similar celebration.

I've seen it enough times that it makes me a bit sad.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:52 AM (P)

Well I'm glad he's dead. And the celebrating (not that much in the grand scheme of things, just in New York and DC as has been said) makes sense to me, I think people are feeling closure, maybe even a closure that they didn't know they were looking for in some cases, I felt it and I didn't know I would, or that I was seeking it, I didn't know until it happened. I like the comradery I see in the news footage of people at the White House etc. Call me whatever you want I don't rightly care.

Byte's point is worth considering though, it feels good to celebrate and have said comradery as countrymen, but will it lead to more trouble for our warriors? It may, which bothers me. But I don't think we can stop spontaneous jubilation, so we'll have to handle things as they come.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:05 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well, dead men tell no tales.

So true.

ETA: There was much more evidence for Saddam's WMDs, that's why it was the case for war. If there hadn't been evidence, they would have made a better case, because that's a terrible reason to go to war. There must be three dozen nations at least with WMDs, many of which were sworn enemies of the US. It was not that there wasn't any evidence, it was that just because there is evidence doesn't mean that it is so. That's why there are trials. Or aren't, in this case.

Rap,

I'm sure he was already dead, but there is something here: Now the idea of him is dead. The "one man" as you said, the face of evil. Whether or not the man was evil in life, he became the image of evil, for a decade, and now with that gone, we can move on, and perhaps look at things more objectively. I can see a positive side to that.

Quote:
Sig

One man ranting about evil Jewish bankers would simply be a lonely soapbox orator without the cooperation of millions.

Pirate News has the cooperation of millions?

Byte,

Maybe we can celebrate that now we have no legitimate reason to be in the middle east

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:24 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Oh yes, how tragic. We're the big bad Americans. We feel so guilty because we can actually make our systems work.

Sorry, time for you children to WAKE THE FUCK UP.

OBL and a whole bunch of his sand-workshipping kinsmen would love to kill you, and your children and run your women off to slavery.

It's in the fuck koran for Christ's sake! They have a waiver on any sin when it comes to fucking over infidels. Lie, cheat, steal, kill, screw over, it's all good with their Imams.

So, if you want me to apologize because we stomped the life out of a cockroach, you're going to be waiting a long, long time.

The only regret I have is that they didn't throw his body to the hogs.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

HW, your own "good book" is full of all sorts of evil cocksuckerish bullshit, too, y'know. Does that make all Christians evil murderers?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It's in the fuck koran for Christ's sake! They have a waiver on any sin when it comes to fucking over infidels. Lie, cheat, steal, kill, screw over, it's all good with their Imams.
Jews too. The same thing is in the OT. And look at our Crusades, and the way we wiped out native populations for God, gold, and glory. All part of that lovely militaristic Judeo-Xtian-Muslim heritage.

BTW- Not apologizing at all. But WTF are we doing in THEIR countries? How would YOU feel if the Saudis decided they would set up an army base in Texas, and then took over Washington and rewrote our laws to be acceptable to them? Goose sauce= gander sauce, no?

Hardware, as an exercise in logic why don't you try re-framing things? For example, in anti-abortion discussions, every time you read the word "abortion" substitute "war" or "death penalty". In discussions about "terrorists", every time you read the word "terrorist" substitute the phrase "American military" or "police". You might see that the same arguments and logic apply in different contexts. Perhaps, logically, there is no separation.

FWIW I'm relieved that he's dead. That is one less boogeyman to hype people up with. But I don't kid myself that this spells an end to jihadism specifically or terrorism in general.

Bingo, Signy. It probably doesn't bring one soldier home from Afghanistan anytime soon, but whether he died a decade ago or a day ago, making it "official" that he's dead and gone brings a sense of closure to the whole debacle, in a way. It means Osama is one bogeyman they'll never be able to hoist up to terrify people with again.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:32 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think after a rocky start Barak Obama has come to the realization that when it comes to the war on Islamist terror the Bush administration had it right for the most part. Bush fell short on persuing terorists in Pakistan while Obama has done so admirably.

I love it when the libs here show their true colors, they hate America so much the excuse the murder of 3000 Americans. Its makes me sick, but I've come to expect it from the sick fucks here.

By the same token, you and all your right-wing asshole brethren hate humanity so much that you'll excuse the murders of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and cheerlead it as "patriotism". The true "sick fucks" in this country vote for Republicans and teabaggers, and claim they care about anything but their own murderous and greedy desires. No wonder you're with them!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:38 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
What strikes me as rather strange, is that a vast superpower nation such as the USA, is throwing a big party because they have taken 10 years to kill ONE Man. Do you think that the whole Islamic terrorist shit is now going to collapse and fold because Bin Laden is dead? Is there no more organisation below Bin Laden?
I'm sorry, but your Government is easily pleased.
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.
I'm shedding no tears over his death, but partying in the streets over one man???It's a pretty pathetic effort IMO.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

Did nobody in England celebrate when Hitler's death was announced?

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:44 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Well I'm glad he's dead. And the celebrating (not that much in the grand scheme of things, just in New York and DC as has been said) makes sense to me, I think people are feeling closure, maybe even a closure that they didn't know they were looking for in some cases, I felt it and I didn't know I would, or that I was seeking it, I didn't know until it happened. I like the comradery I see in the news footage of people at the White House etc. Call me whatever you want I don't rightly care.

Byte's point is worth considering though, it feels good to celebrate and have said comradery as countrymen, but will it lead to more trouble for our warriors? It may, which bothers me. But I don't think we can stop spontaneous jubilation, so we'll have to handle things as they come.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Well said, and about sums up my feelings on it. I don't celebrate his death, but the closure it will help bring.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:45 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Sig

One man ranting about evil Jewish bankers would simply be a lonely soapbox orator without the cooperation of millions.

Pirate News has the cooperation of millions?

Good one. I lol'd. :)

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:21 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Each and every time Fidel Castro has died, sneezed, or been hospitalized, Miami experiences a similar celebration.

I've seen it enough times that it makes me a bit sad.

--Anthony

Likely they were celebrating the death of the one who killed their siblings, parents and or grandparents, as he took their land.

It IS sad that Castro still lives. I agree.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Each and every time Fidel Castro has died, sneezed, or been hospitalized, Miami experiences a similar celebration.

I've seen it enough times that it makes me a bit sad.

--Anthony

Likely they were celebrating the death of the one who killed their siblings, parents and or grandparents, as he took their land.

So you will be completely understanding when large-scale celebrations break out in Baghdad when Dubya dies, right?

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:38 AM (P)

No, not really. But you're too stupid for me to even bother explaining it...

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:50 AM (P)

You mean you've got nothing. Color me surprised.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:35 AM (P)

Quote:
That zealots follow leaders like Hitler, Saddam or Usama, has nothing to do w/ what Ayn Rand was talking about, at all.

Oh? I thought you were HER zealot! My bad.

PEACEKEEPER

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:23 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
What strikes me as rather strange, is that a vast superpower nation such as the USA, is throwing a big party because they have taken 10 years to kill ONE Man. Do you think that the whole Islamic terrorist shit is now going to collapse and fold because Bin Laden is dead? Is there no more organisation below Bin Laden?
I'm sorry, but your Government is easily pleased.
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.
I'm shedding no tears over his death, but partying in the streets over one man???It's a pretty pathetic effort IMO.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

I wasn't aware this became a national holiday. I certainly wasn't let out of work for it. Not that I would want to celebrate another person's death, regardless of how evil I considered them. Still, I get your point. It wasn't a royal wedding after all

I know what you are trying to say, but we were celebrating the history and tradition of one of our national institutions and identity.And that is a specific internal occasion that is the culmination of 2000years of continuous history. What exactly does the death of Bin Laden achieve in real terms!! I understand how people would be pleased(I'm not trying to belittle that), but I think the Gov is making too big a deal.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

PEACEKEEPER

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
What strikes me as rather strange, is that a vast superpower nation such as the USA, is throwing a big party because they have taken 10 years to kill ONE Man. Do you think that the whole Islamic terrorist shit is now going to collapse and fold because Bin Laden is dead? Is there no more organisation below Bin Laden?
I'm sorry, but your Government is easily pleased.
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.
I'm shedding no tears over his death, but partying in the streets over one man???It's a pretty pathetic effort IMO.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

Did nobody in England celebrate when Hitler's death was announced?

I'm pretty sure that they did. But Hitler's death signalled the end of a world war, and he was a man that had total political power in that. The death of OBL signifies the end of nothing.This war will carry on and possibly escalate VERY soon.No comparison whatsoever.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
That zealots follow leaders like Hitler, Saddam or Usama, has nothing to do w/ what Ayn Rand was talking about, at all.
Oh? I thought you were HER zealot! My bad.

Nope. Never even read all of Atlas Shrugged. It bored me, so I put it down. But the message that the individual should have the right to do as they please, so far as they don't impeded on the rights of others....seems like a dangerous idea to you. Wonder why.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Good one. I lol'd. :)

I'm surprised someone actually got it, rather than thinking that I simply misread the post. I was expecting a rant from someone, but they're too busy bickering like an old married polygamous couple (imagine the nightmare

) to notice that I was here at all. Maybe it's time we started seeing other forums

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

KPO

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:45 PM (P)

Quote:
The fact that just one bloke's death can cause massive chants of "USA" in the streets is a pretty poor indication of how desperate you are to achieve a victory.

This is more than just a tactical 'victory' - this is about overdue revenge, and justice.

This was a very fitting and satisfying end to the Bin Laden story if you ask me. He was hunted down and expertly taken out by US special forces, reportedly in his last moments using a woman as a human shield. Ok I don't revel in that woman's death - but my point is everything about this operation goes a long way towards destroying the man's courageous and invincible mystique (in radical islamist thought).

As said before: Win.

It's not personal. It's just war.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:14 PM (P)

Speaking of post that bear repeating, I saw this post on a friends facebook and lol'd

Quote:
Hey Pakistan, I know you think you're being cute when you say that it was your intelligence that led to the death of Bin Laden, but you might want to stop drawing attention to yourself while we go over Bin Laden's little black book of friends.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:54 PM (P)

...Well, crap. Judging by the popular response that's already being whipped up, we really ARE heading for a war with Pakistan.

Joyous.

KWICKO

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:52 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Did nobody in England celebrate when Hitler's death was announced?

I'm pretty sure that they did. But Hitler's death signalled the end of a world war, and he was a man that had total political power in that. The death of OBL signifies the end of nothing.This war will carry on and possibly escalate VERY soon.No comparison whatsoever.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

I think you're misremembering your history. Unless you believe that Japan surrendered the day Hitler died. As I remember it, the war carried on for quite some time after Hitler died. In fact, it escalated to a nuclear war!

If anyone expected that the death of Bin Laden would equate to the end of all terrorism, I'd have to ask them if the death of Hitler signaled an end to all Nazism. Or an end to Germans.

PEACEKEEPER

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 8:56 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Did nobody in England celebrate when Hitler's death was announced?

I'm pretty sure that they did. But Hitler's death signalled the end of a world war, and he was a man that had total political power in that. The death of OBL signifies the end of nothing.This war will carry on and possibly escalate VERY soon.No comparison whatsoever.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

I think you're misremembering your history. Unless you believe that Japan surrendered the day Hitler died. As I remember it, the war carried on for quite some time after Hitler died. In fact, it escalated to a nuclear war!

If anyone expected that the death of Bin Laden would equate to the end of all terrorism, I'd have to ask them if the death of Hitler signaled an end to all Nazism. Or an end to Germans.

The death of Hitler meant the end of the war in EUROPE.So as English people, THAT was what concerned US. The Japanese conflict was YOUR problem.And no,it did not mean the end of Nazism, but is was no longer a worldwide threat and was an end to ARMED CONFLICT in Europe.
Don't be pedantic just to prove a point, son.It's embarrassing.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

KWICKO

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 11:54 AM (P)

Sorry, but I seem to remember some Brits and Aussies doing a bit of fighting in the Pacific Theatre as well.

You want to remember things in broad swaths, you'd do well to remember that OBL was the face and image of Al Qaeda and Islamic terrorism in the last decade. As such, his death DOES mark the end of something, even if it's only a symbolic something.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:55 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Each and every time Fidel Castro has died, sneezed, or been hospitalized, Miami experiences a similar celebration.

I've seen it enough times that it makes me a bit sad.

--Anthony

Likely they were celebrating the death of the one who killed their siblings, parents and or grandparents, as he took their land.

It IS sad that Castro still lives. I agree.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

You don't understand. I'm not sure you can understand.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

STORYMARK

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 3:39 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
The Japanese conflict was YOUR problem.

Wow.

Factual inaccuracies in what you say aside - good thing for you America didn't take that attitude with Hitler.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 3:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think after a rocky start Barak Obama has come to the realization that when it comes to the war on Islamist terror the Bush administration had it right for the most part. Bush fell short on persuing terorists in Pakistan while Obama has done so admirably.

Already rewriting history, I see. Bravo.

Don't forget - Bush was the one who didn't care, and Obama said, back in those "rocky start" days - that he would do exactly what just happened.

It's cute to see you rabid right wingers show your true colors.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 3:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think after a rocky start Barak Obama has come to the realization that when it comes to the war on Islamist terror the Bush administration had it right for the most part. Bush fell short on persuing terorists in Pakistan while Obama has done so admirably.

Already rewriting history, I see. Bravo.

Don't forget - Bush was the one who didn't care, and Obama said, back in those "rocky start" days - that he would do exactly what just happened.

It's cute to see you rabid right wingers show your true colors.

Some how 'I told you so', just doesn't say it...

WILLIAMS: I’d like to ask you about the sourcing on the intel that ultimately led to this successful attack. Can you confirm that it was as a result of waterboarding that we learned what we needed to learn to go after Bin Laden?

PANETTA: You know, Brian, in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information, and that was true here. We had a multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation. Clearly, some of it came from detainees and the interrogation of detainees, but we also had information from other sources as well. So it’s a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got.

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb-staff/2011/05/04/open-thread-leon-pane
tta-bursts-lefts-waterboarding-bubble#ixzz1LOpZYXN0

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

HARDWARE

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 4:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh, just to chime in and then I'm outa' here: there is as much evidence of bin Laden's guilt for 9/11 as there is for Hussein's WMDs. In other words - nada. And, I'm detecting a Bush administration patten here which goes: start a war and look for reasons later. And, uh, fail to find any evidence. Geeeeze. What a dunce.

FAIL

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html

I guess you're going to admit that YOU are the dunce?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

STORYMARK

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 4:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Some how 'I told you so', just doesn't say it...

I'd reply the same, since the White House has denied this. Rumsfeld, too.

But I know you ignore facts that don't fit your narrative, so "clearly" that would fly over your head.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NIKI2

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:17 PM (P)

Not that it will mean anything to you, Raptor, but

Quote:
detainees and the interrogation of detainees

doesn’t mean they “got” bin Laden because of waterboarding. First off, he said clearly several times that they had multiple sources. Secondly, from what I’ve heard/read, what they got was that bin Laden had a favorite courier; the name wasn’t given, so it was just one coin dropping. Third, I believe it’s been said before that they only got valid information AFTER the torture stopped, so there’s no way of knowing that waterboarding brought about ANYTHING. Most important of all, in response to the question nowhere did Panetta say waterboarding brought anything, just that some info came from interrogation of detainees. Your point isn’t even slightly made. Weak try at “proving” waterboarding worked, led to the killing of bin Laden, or brought about ANY useful information.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:47 PM (P)

Peacekeeper: you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:50 PM (P)

Hardware, the report you linked said they were unable to authenticate the tape.

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Thank you DT and Frem.

Yes, thank you DT and Frem.

Frem, that was very well said.

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by peacekeeper:
The Japanese conflict was YOUR problem.

Wow.

Factual inaccuracies in what you say aside - good thing for you America didn't take that attitude with Hitler.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Very true. And for a time, America DID take exactly that attitude toward Hitler, right up until he declared war on the U.S.

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:15 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think after a rocky start Barak Obama has come to the realization that when it comes to the war on Islamist terror the Bush administration had it right for the most part. Bush fell short on persuing terorists in Pakistan while Obama has done so admirably.

Already rewriting history, I see. Bravo.

Don't forget - Bush was the one who didn't care, and Obama said, back in those "rocky start" days - that he would do exactly what just happened.

It's cute to see you rabid right wingers show your true colors.

Some how 'I told you so', just doesn't say it...

WILLIAMS: I’d like to ask you about the sourcing on the intel that ultimately led to this successful attack. Can you confirm that it was as a result of waterboarding that we learned what we needed to learn to go after Bin Laden?

PANETTA: You know, Brian, in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information, and that was true here. We had a multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation. Clearly, some of it came from detainees and the interrogation of detainees, but we also had information from other sources as well. So it’s a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got.

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb-staff/2011/05/04/open-thread-leon-pane
tta-bursts-lefts-waterboarding-bubble#ixzz1LOpZYXN0

So, in your estimation, there is no way to "interrogate" somebody that DOESN'T involve torture?

Good to know. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:23 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hardware, the report you linked said they were unable to authenticate the tape.

Yup, it sure did. Said it right in the middle of the article, too. Here's the quote, pulled from the article:

Quote:
Although there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made, it referenced the upcoming presidential election.

HW, that's not exactly a win for you.

Imagine if Bin Laden made a tape showing Obama's birth certificate. Would you believe him?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:26 AM (P)

By the way, deputy national security advisor says waterboarding DIDN'T play a role in the finding of Bin Laden.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-
didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/

Told ya so, indeed.

HARDWARE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:25 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hardware, the report you linked said they were unable to authenticate the tape.

Yup, it sure did. Said it right in the middle of the article, too. Here's the quote, pulled from the article:

Quote:
Although there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made, it referenced the upcoming presidential election.

HW, that's not exactly a win for you.

Imagine if Bin Laden made a tape showing Obama's birth certificate. Would you believe him?

So, the man is on tape, admitting involvement in 9/11, but you want more proof? I only posted this, a PBS source, after Kiki insisted that Bin Laden was not involved. Are you that ambivalent about the man's death that you want to apologize for his history of terrorism?

I understand the mechanism of Stockholm syndrome, but I've never understood people that fall victim to it. It's as if their character is so weak they need to identify with a powerful evil, to become that evil in an attempt to pacify it and survive it.

In short, it's pathetic.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

1KIKI

Thursday, May 5, 2011 4:29 AM (P)

Hardware

http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_19.htm

Defenders of the 'official story' like to point out to the skeptics of 9/11 that Osama Bin Laden was caught on video proudly confessing to the crime in front of a group of his peers. The now famous 'confession' video was released in December of 2001 by the Department of Defense under growing international pressure to provide definitive proof tying Bin Laden to 9/11. And the defenders of the government's narrative present this oft-broadcast video as tidy proof of that narrative's validity. But as with so much of the 'evidence' covered at length in this paper, this 'definitive' proof is riddled with conflicting facts, quantum leaps in judgment, and, ultimately, inadvertent support not for the official story, but for the very skepticism about 9/11 that the 'proof' was meant to quell.

First of all, Bin Laden's initial reaction to 9/11 was not to take credit for the crime at all. In fact, he continually denied any involvement in 9/11 up until the 'confession' video was mysteriously presented. Almost no one in the U.S. has read Bin Laden's first statement in response to 9/11, which so conflicts the later 'confession'. Here it is, from September 17, 2001:

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations."

We've been asked to accept without question his other statements of 'confession'. So how do we make sense of the above statement? Or how do we make sense of his second public statement in regards to 9/11, given on October 16, 2001:

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle."

These comments obviously do not prove that Bin Laden did not orchestrate 9/11. But they do raise a crucial question. Why would a man spend six weeks denying a crime, then suddenly flip-flop 180 degrees and happily start taking responsibility for the originally denied crime? Most people - including scientists, CIA analysts, FBI, and other independent investigators, etc. - who have a working familiarity with the 'confession' video, know the answer to this question. And that is that the man in the video making the 'confession' is almost certainly not Osama Bin Laden, and the tape is a fake. The man shown in the video, though bearded, Arabic, and of darkish complexion, is much heavier than all known photos and videos of the actual Bin Laden. The man in the video is seen writing something down with his right hand. Bin Laden is well-known to be left-handed. And there are scores of other reasons to question the validity of the tape.

etc

For your edification, here is the video, showing a clearly right-handed man who does not look like bin Laden.

It's long lost to the internet, but perhaps you remember back when ... after the Taliban was supposedly beaten and when the US was still in Afghanistan in force ...

US troops were tasked with finding proof of bin Laden's involvement. They looked high and low, eventually at one point it was reported that they had translated and searched over 19 boxcars full of papers alone - and found nothing. No plans, no cell phone calls, no names, nothing. Not even a whiff of a hint. To this day, no *** verifiable *** evidence has been found to connect bin Laden with 9/11.

Even the FBI wanted poster doesn't list 9/11, though they were given multiple opportunities to revise the posting, including after the 'confession' tape.

Compare this scenario with Mohamed Atta, who left a wide trail of

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:52 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hardware, the report you linked said they were unable to authenticate the tape.

Yup, it sure did. Said it right in the middle of the article, too. Here's the quote, pulled from the article:

Quote:
Although there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made, it referenced the upcoming presidential election.

HW, that's not exactly a win for you.

Imagine if Bin Laden made a tape showing Obama's birth certificate. Would you believe him?

So, the man is on tape, admitting involvement in 9/11, but you want more proof? I only posted this, a PBS source, after Kiki insisted that Bin Laden was not involved. Are you that ambivalent about the man's death that you want to apologize for his history of terrorism?

Not sure where you get that I'm "ambivalent" about OBL's death. Clearly not from anything I've said. I'm not sorry the guy's dead; I pointed out that you presented faulty "evidence" to support your point.

You presented your "evidence" as a clear proof of "FAIL" on Kiki's part, and your own "evidence" says outright that your "evidence" cannot be authenticated. That seems to me like a major "FAIL" on your part.

You say *THE* man is on tape; others say that *A* man is on tape, claiming involvement. Kiki pointed out that there was what courts would call "reasonable doubt", but fortunately for the U.S. (and by a remarkable set of circumstances), OBL will never see the inside of a courtroom. I'd have preferred a trial, but it seems others feared things that might be revealed by such an undertaking, so it was never even under consideration.

Quote:

I understand the mechanism of Stockholm syndrome, but I've never understood people that fall victim to it. It's as if their character is so weak they need to identify with a powerful evil, to become that evil in an attempt to pacify it and survive it.

Congratulations. You've just perfectly described Boot Camp and the U.S. military. I could never understand it, either. Weak character sums it up pretty well.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

AURAPTOR

Thursday, May 5, 2011 11:34 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

So, in your estimation, there is no way to "interrogate" somebody that DOESN'T involve torture?

Good to know. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

It wasn't torture. We just asked, really, really enhanced like.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 1:45 PM (P)

Actually, no. It's because I require better vetting from my journalism sources before they are in fact credible.

Posts have been made and even produced about an Israeli confirmation of Osama death in 2001, but the form of THOSE reports means I can't vet them either. I remain unconvinced on all sides.

Osama is a jerk, and possibly delusional, because he has to know that actions he approved HAVE hurt women and children (and I don't exactly think of men as an expendable gender either, even in "war"), or have incited violence against such. I'm sure he is dead, and I've said that I think that's a good thing, though we need to watch out for retaliation. What I don't know is when he died, but that's ultimately unimportant. What is important, as I and others have said repeatedly, is how the current report of his death is used.

HARDWARE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 2:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hardware, the report you linked said they were unable to authenticate the tape.

Yup, it sure did. Said it right in the middle of the article, too. Here's the quote, pulled from the article:

Quote:
Although there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made, it referenced the upcoming presidential election.

HW, that's not exactly a win for you.

Imagine if Bin Laden made a tape showing Obama's birth certificate. Would you believe him?

So, the man is on tape, admitting involvement in 9/11, but you want more proof? I only posted this, a PBS source, after Kiki insisted that Bin Laden was not involved. Are you that ambivalent about the man's death that you want to apologize for his history of terrorism?

Not sure where you get that I'm "ambivalent" about OBL's death. Clearly not from anything I've said. I'm not sorry the guy's dead; I pointed out that you presented faulty "evidence" to support your point.

You presented your "evidence" as a clear proof of "FAIL" on Kiki's part, and your own "evidence" says outright that your "evidence" cannot be authenticated. That seems to me like a major "FAIL" on your part.

You say *THE* man is on tape; others say that *A* man is on tape, claiming involvement. Kiki pointed out that there was what courts would call "reasonable doubt", but fortunately for the U.S. (and by a remarkable set of circumstances), OBL will never see the inside of a courtroom. I'd have preferred a trial, but it seems others feared things that might be revealed by such an undertaking, so it was never even under consideration.

Quote:

I understand the mechanism of Stockholm syndrome, but I've never understood people that fall victim to it. It's as if their character is so weak they need to identify with a powerful evil, to become that evil in an attempt to pacify it and survive it.

Congratulations. You've just perfectly described Boot Camp and the U.S. military. I could never understand it, either. Weak character sums it up pretty well.

Okay, one more time. I'll type this slow so you can keep up.

Kiki said;

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh, just to chime in and then I'm outa' here: there is as much evidence of bin Laden's guilt for 9/11 as there is for Hussein's WMDs. In other words - nada. And, I'm detecting a Bush administration patten here which goes: start a war and look for reasons later. And, uh, fail to find any evidence. Geeeeze. What a dunce.

And I presented some evidence. Which makes, and continues to make, Kiki's statement a FAIL.

Whether or not that evidence is credible. It is certainly, by it's mere existence, evidence. Which means the statement that there is no evidence incontrovertibly wrong.

Still want to keep arguing this single point or are you going to come up with another convoluted argument that tries to dodge the point?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:07 PM (P)

I concede there's evidence either way in a number of issues, and it's up to each of us individually to decide what evidence we believe. Though your point doesn't entirely dismiss the whole Osama question, but then it sounds like you weren't trying to.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, May 5, 2011 4:10 PM (P)

Hello,

It's easy to fall into the trap of debating the efficacy of torture. I do it myself sometimes without thinking.

The debate about its efficacy is the wrong debate.

The real debate is, 'Would you die to protect the freedoms and principles to which you cleave?"

The price of freedom is living in a dangerous world, and choosing not to mitigate that danger by destroying freedom and the 'rights' we have defined as being important to humanity.

Most of us compromise on that to some degree, but my line is drawn well before inflicting agony to get information.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 6:09 PM (P)

HW, again you FAIL.

Quote:

Kiki said;

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh, just to chime in and then I'm outa' here: there is as much evidence of bin Laden's guilt for 9/11 as there is for Hussein's WMDs. In other words - nada. And, I'm detecting a Bush administration patten here which goes: start a war and look for reasons later. And, uh, fail to find any evidence. Geeeeze. What a dunce.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I presented some evidence. Which makes, and continues to make, Kiki's statement a FAIL.

Whether or not that evidence is credible. It is certainly, by it's mere existence, evidence. Which means the statement that there is no evidence incontrovertibly wrong.

Still want to keep arguing this single point or are you going to come up with another convoluted argument that tries to dodge the point?

Kiki didn't say there was NO evidence. She/he said there as "as much evidence". Before the Iraq War, we were assured that there was indeed evidence of Saddam's WMD. It was all phony and forgeries, but it was, in your words, "evidence".

So Kiki did not indeed "FAIL", but you have, rather spectacularly, and you keep flaming out. Sorry you're getting so butt-hurt about it, and getting sand in your pussy, in your words, but it's true - you've failed utterly to provide any real evidence. Dan Rather lost his job while providing more factual evidence than you've supplied.

Sorry your reading comprehension is so terrible, and you can't figure out where it all went wrong for you. As Frem suggested before, quit digging!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

HARDWARE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:22 PM (P)

Kwicko, you constantly amaze me with your dumbfuckery. She said there was nada. Meaning no evidence. I shouldn't expect critical thinking from leftists. You're the type of people who can't understand the phrase; "Shall not be infringed."

I highlighted in bold and red and you still didn't get the inaccuracy of the statement. At this point, I think you are in a parallel delusional state sort of like PN. I don't think you could be shown the truth if I dragged you to it and rubbed your nose in it. Come to think of it, I did and you didn't get it.

And, while we're bringing up Kiki's inaccurate statements, let's look at the second part of the statement;

Quote:

And, I'm detecting a Bush administration patten here which goes:..

So it is Bush's fault that OBL is dead? That IS the point we're arguing, isn't it?

Double fail.

I shouldn't have given you the option of conceding or making another perambulating argument. I don't think you're capable of changing your mind once you've decided you're right.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, May 5, 2011 9:16 PM (P)

I still am pondering the use of FAIL as a noun. I heard my older brother say it while we were at the ocean, I still don't think I fancy it, just like I don't fancy it when people say "My bad", my bad what? Bad is an adjective, wouldn't one want ot say "my error"? Oh well, people can say what they like, it isn't hurting anyone to be sure. I just wonder if anyone else thinks about this stuff, finds it perplexing. Oh well.

Insert bemused and perplexed face here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

KWICKO

Thursday, May 5, 2011 11:20 PM (P)

HW, you've posted exactly one piece of evidence, and that very evidence itself says that it has never been authenticated, and can't be.

You actually DO have "nada". Your inbred fuckwit of a brain can't figure that out, can it? I notice that as a pattern with you right-wing idiots - you get stuck on stupid, and refuse to let facts get in your way.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

1KIKI

Friday, May 6, 2011 5:27 AM (P)

HW

There were CLAIMS of evidence for WMDs in Iraq, not only before the attack, but after. Centrifuge buried under a rose bush. Satellite photo that might have possibly been A truck by A large building presumed to be a factory. Sworn statements that Hussein had the WMDs sent to Syria ... etc.

If I were to CLAIM that I talked with Santa Claus last Christmas - I swear on the holy bible it's true - would you consider it evidence that Santa exists? What about if I showed you a video of me dressed up as Santa telling you I'm Santa? How about if I wrote it on a piece of paper and underneath wrote - 'this is the word of god'? Would you think that's evidence?

An obviously fake video is not evidence - sorry dude - no matter how much you need to believe it is. But that's the problem with reality, it doesn't care how you feel. It is what it is.

1KIKI

Friday, May 6, 2011 5:49 AM (P)

"I just wonder if anyone else thinks about this stuff, finds it perplexing."

I used to be a stickler for good grammar, until I saw really freakin' BAD grammar in the NYTimes, the WashingtonPost, and other bastions of the English language. I pretty much gave up on it.

KWICKO

Friday, May 6, 2011 11:37 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I still am pondering the use of FAIL as a noun. I heard my older brother say it while we were at the ocean, I still don't think I fancy it, just like I don't fancy it when people say "My bad", my bad what? Bad is an adjective, wouldn't one want ot say "my error"? Oh well, people can say what they like, it isn't hurting anyone to be sure. I just wonder if anyone else thinks about this stuff, finds it perplexing. Oh well.

Insert bemused and perplexed face here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

"FAIL" as a noun pretty much comes from places like 4chan and failblog, where people would post funny or ironic pictures of things going horribly wrong with the simple caption "FAIL" on them. From there, it morphed into people posting things like "your shipment of FAIL has arrived" and "you're on the FAILboat", etc.

"My bad" is generally accepted to be "urban slang" - probably started by someone saying something to a friend - "Yo, that's bad, man" and being responded to with, "Yeah, that's MY bad." And from there it just caught on and grew. Once it gets into a blockbuster movie, or a cult hit, it becomes part of the vernacular and just becomes a commonplace phrase.

I get amused by people who actually say "WTF" in conversation. It's internet shorthand, of course, and quicker to type than "What the fuck?", but it's actually LONGER to say "WTF" than to say "What the fuck". Just the "W" is as many syllables as saying the whole phrase, which just goes to prove language and slang aren't necessarily about shortening things or making them simpler...

I don't find this stuff perplexing so much as I find it fascinating. I love watching the language evolve.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

HARDWARE

Friday, May 6, 2011 1:05 PM (P)

This is a link to the CNN transcript of an interview Al Jazeera did with Bin Laden. When CNN aired it in its entirety Al Jazeera severed the media sharing agreement it had with them. They also retracted the rights for CNN to air the interview.

However, CNN has the transcript on their website. Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11 in the transcript.

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-02-05/world/binladen.transcript_1_incitem
ent-fatwas-al-qaeda-organization?_s=PM:asiapcf

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

HARDWARE

Friday, May 6, 2011 1:11 PM (P)

DOD transcript of a videotape retrieved from a house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan in November, 2001.

http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 6, 2011 4:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I still am pondering the use of FAIL as a noun. I heard my older brother say it while we were at the ocean, I still don't think I fancy it, just like I don't fancy it when people say "My bad", my bad what? Bad is an adjective, wouldn't one want ot say "my error"? Oh well, people can say what they like, it isn't hurting anyone to be sure. I just wonder if anyone else thinks about this stuff, finds it perplexing. Oh well.

Insert bemused and perplexed face here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

"FAIL" as a noun pretty much comes from places like 4chan and failblog, where people would post funny or ironic pictures of things going horribly wrong with the simple caption "FAIL" on them. From there, it morphed into people posting things like "your shipment of FAIL has arrived" and "you're on the FAILboat", etc.

"My bad" is generally accepted to be "urban slang" - probably started by someone saying something to a friend - "Yo, that's bad, man" and being responded to with, "Yeah, that's MY bad." And from there it just caught on and grew. Once it gets into a blockbuster movie, or a cult hit, it becomes part of the vernacular and just becomes a commonplace phrase.

I get amused by people who actually say "WTF" in conversation. It's internet shorthand, of course, and quicker to type than "What the fuck?", but it's actually LONGER to say "WTF" than to say "What the fuck". Just the "W" is as many syllables as saying the whole phrase, which just goes to prove language and slang aren't necessarily about shortening things or making them simpler...

I don't find this stuff perplexing so much as I find it fascinating. I love watching the language evolve.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Hello,

I know a lot of people who will declare, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!" not in an attempt to shorten language (obviously) but rather in an attempt to convey an idea without using language they consider offensive if uttered in public.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

STORYMARK

Friday, May 6, 2011 6:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I still am pondering the use of FAIL as a noun. I heard my older brother say it while we were at the ocean, I still don't think I fancy it, just like I don't fancy it when people say "My bad", my bad what? Bad is an adjective, wouldn't one want ot say "my error"? Oh well, people can say what they like, it isn't hurting anyone to be sure. I just wonder if anyone else thinks about this stuff, finds it perplexing. Oh well.

Insert bemused and perplexed face here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Language evolves. Always has, always will. A decade or so ago, I didn't figure "text" would become a verb - but it very much is. "Google" was, if anything at all, a description for eyes on stuffed animals. Now it's a verb and a proper noun.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Friday, May 6, 2011 6:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, deputy national security advisor says waterboarding DIDN'T play a role in the finding of Bin Laden.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-
didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/

Told ya so, indeed.

Bah, we all know how Rappy rolls. If it doesn't agree with his narrative, it doesn't count. And you're a fool/denier/yadda yadda for even daring to present it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, May 7, 2011 11:17 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, deputy national security advisor says waterboarding DIDN'T play a role in the finding of Bin Laden.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-
didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/

Told ya so, indeed.

Bah, we all know how Rappy rolls. If it doesn't agree with his narrative, it doesn't count. And you're a fool/denier/yadda yadda for even daring to present it.

Leon Panetta, the CIA director, has confirmed that controversial "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding yielded some of the intelligence information that ultimately led to Osama bin Laden.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491509/Osama-bin-L
aden-killed-CIA-admits-waterboarding-yielded-vital-information.html

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

ANTHONYT

Saturday, May 7, 2011 2:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, deputy national security advisor says waterboarding DIDN'T play a role in the finding of Bin Laden.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-
didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/

Told ya so, indeed.

Bah, we all know how Rappy rolls. If it doesn't agree with his narrative, it doesn't count. And you're a fool/denier/yadda yadda for even daring to present it.

Leon Panetta, the CIA director, has confirmed that controversial "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding yielded some of the intelligence information that ultimately led to Osama bin Laden.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491509/Osama-bin-L
aden-killed-CIA-admits-waterboarding-yielded-vital-information.html

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

This is good news, Mr. Raptor. This means that when you boldly stand opposed to violating human rights, you will be traveling the narrow, winding road. Enduring the difficult path, because Freedom isn't free. It demands sacrifice, and as a lover of freedom, you are willing to do what it takes.

If that means living in a world where we don't torture people just to get easy intel, so be it.

I'm proud of you for being willing to endure a little bit more danger and uncertainty in your life in order to uphold the values that make this country great.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

1KIKI

Sunday, May 8, 2011 5:55 AM (P)

Here is an example of the three problems I have with this text:

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower."
The first problem is that parts of it doesn't make sense in English. Unless you tell me that Arabic-speaking people inherently don't make sense no matter how good the translation, there is a problem with the text of what he is saying.

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower (because the tower facing Mecca REALLY made a difference!)"

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy ... who would be killed based on the position of the tower?"

Perhaps he meant:

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties of the enemy, who would be killed based on the placement of the damage to the tower" or,

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties of the enemy, who would be killed based on their position in the tower", or

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of our casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on their position in the tower".

In any case, it is too scrambled to put much faith in it.

The second problem is that it's incomplete, meaning you don't get the context -

"(...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower."

"(After we heard about it we were sitting around and bullshitting one day, and) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower."

"(They told us) 'we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower'."

Many parts are missing, leaving the context in question.

The third and largest problem is the translation.

Here is a quote from the translation you provided:
"The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter."

Here is the government trial exhibit:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/moussaoui/zmobltranscrip
t.html

"The brothers who executed . . . . All they knew was that there was a martyrdom operation. They were asked to go to the United States. . . Europe . . . but they did not know one single little thing about the nature of the operation."

Difference much?

Now perhaps you weren't paying attention when all this was going on, but I was. This was the tape I was referring to when I said there was a tape of bin Laden celebrating 9/11. There was a LOT of controversy over this tape, its completeness - or lack thereof (there was quite a bit of evidence from overlapping information held by the British and Italians that the tape had been edited), its provenance, and especially its translation. But the LEGAL translation - the translation of record - does not support bin Laden's involvement. It says 'they were asked' by somebody and not 'we asked them'. Which is why the public translation was consistently shaded - the US needed a PR slam-dunk, even though they didn't have a legal one. The LEGAL EVIDENCE is EXTREMELY ambiguous, most especially when you read the whole transcript.

HARDWARE

Sunday, May 8, 2011 2:51 PM (P)

Regardless of your problems with this, it is still evidence. Unless you or Kwicko want to appoint yourself grand arbiter for acceptable evidence.

It appears to me that you can't stand when your "facts" are easily refutable.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

ANTHONYT

Sunday, May 8, 2011 3:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Regardless of your problems with this, it is still evidence. Unless you or Kwicko want to appoint yourself grand arbiter for acceptable evidence.

It appears to me that you can't stand when your "facts" are easily refutable.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Hello,

It would seem to me that you are quite correct, Mr. Hardware. Bad and easily refutable evidence of questionable quality does indeed exist in this matter.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

HARDWARE

Monday, May 9, 2011 1:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Regardless of your problems with this, it is still evidence. Unless you or Kwicko want to appoint yourself grand arbiter for acceptable evidence.

It appears to me that you can't stand when your "facts" are easily refutable.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Hello,

It would seem to me that you are quite correct, Mr. Hardware. Bad and easily refutable evidence of questionable quality does indeed exist in this matter.

--Anthony

Which is exactly as I stipulated. But certain parties like to hear their keyboards click, apparently, and have trouble admitting they were wrong.
In any event, Bin Leaden deserved to have his ticket punched for the acts of terrorism in the 93 WTC bombing, bombings of the 2 african embassies and the USS Cole, which money trails lead directly back to Al Quaida.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

RIONAEIRE

Monday, May 9, 2011 2:22 AM (P)

I don't mind bad grammer, I partake often myself. As long as the person has thought about the phrases they use, know they are peculiar/ off kilter, but choose to use them anyways, then they can say whatever they want. BTW its funny but I never found text being used as a verb to be odd, for some reason I kind of like the sound of it. Lets face it, I'm a very subjective person about language use, some things I like and some things I don't, there's not rhyme or reason to some of it, like "my bad" that one just irks me some, but I think "texting" as a word is cool. Its mostly subjective but there are a few exceptions, there are a couple of words that I hate the current vernacular use for. But most of it is subjective and it really doesn't matter what one individual person thinks one way or the other. When someone uses the one word that I absolutely hate seeing misused I'll say something, the rest is just my opinion and is more musing out loud than anything.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

1KIKI

Monday, May 9, 2011 9:00 PM (P)

"Regardless of * your * problems with this, it is still evidence."

They aren't just * my * problems with it. Even the US government doesn't consider this to be evidence. That's why prosecutors ignored it and used a different FACTUAL translation/ transcription as legal evidence. And no other government that I know of credits your version as evidence either. Your version was internationally considered untrue (including by our friends the British and Italians). AT THE TIME this was released in the US media, it was widely discredited.

But that you consider it to be 'evidence', means YOU think it is fact, because in order to be EVIDENCE (at least in your mind) it has to be factual. But as I have pointed out, it isn't. The people who have translated and studied it within the US government don't think so, and other governments don't think so either. It is perhaps PR, perhaps a commercial to sell you something, or perhaps intentional propaganda, but YOUR version is not EVIDENCE.

Because it is a fiction.

I'll call it propaganda. Given that the government had BOTH versions and CHOSE to widely release the misleading one tells me that the publicly released version is an intentional effort on the part of government to mislead the public. By definition, it's propaganda. And as a believer in authority, you accept it as fact. Why? Because the authorities told you so.

Yes, they do mislead, and quite often, counting on people like you. They count on their authority to sway your judgment and credit their message, even when it is a fiction.

ETA: if somebody found this for you, they do know that it's as discredited as 'Curveball'. They have fed you bad information to advance their own agenda. Do not assume they are your friend.

1KIKI

Monday, May 9, 2011 11:22 PM (P)

Bump for Hware

KWICKO

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:32 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Regardless of your problems with this, it is still evidence. Unless you or Kwicko want to appoint yourself grand arbiter for acceptable evidence.

Isn't that what you're doing? Aren't you trying to tell all of us what "acceptable" evidence is? In fact, aren't you rather insistent in your dumbfuckery in such matters? You keep whinging about others "getting their panties in a bunch", and then you "get sand in your pussy" when someone points out that your "evidence" has never been authenticated and much of it has been outright refuted and disproven. And you still insist that you're right, when you have no "evidence" to support your idiotic claims.

Quote:

It appears to me that you can't stand when your "facts" are easily refutable.

"Dear Kettle,

You're black.

Signed,

The Pot"

Do I think Bin Laden is dead? Yup.

Do I think he was behind 9/11? Pretty much.

But pardon me if I don't just take your say-so as "proof" of such things.

I can't PROVE that he *wasn't* involved, but unfortunately for you, I don't have any need to. Under our system, the burden of proof is on the accuser to prove BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that the accused is guilty. It's not on everyone else to prove innocence.

Some people say that's this country's greatest achievement: our legal code. Others (Republicans) seem to think the Constitution and our laws are "just a goddam piece of paper"...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill