George Lucas loses his mind

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Monday, October 24, 2011 00:35
VIEWED: 28292
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OPPYH

Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:27 PM

Well, the upcoming Blu-ray set for Star Wars is about to hit stores(Sep. 16) and Good ol George strikes yet again.
So far a handful of changes to the original trilogy have been confirmed by Lucasfilm. This is an ongoing issue, as it appears we are the beta-testers. Call this original trilogy 4.0. This one being the most awkward:

I give up. Pre-order has been cancelled.

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70's TV FOREVER

DMI

Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:58 PM

Every time Star Wars changes, an angel loses its wings.

-----------------------------
I pray for one last landing,
on the globe that gave me birth.
Let me rest my eyes on the fleecy skies
and the cool, green hills of Earth.

BRAMKAANDORP

Wednesday, August 31, 2011 9:12 PM

Funny thing is, there are rumours that the video(s) are fakes.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

-Douglas Adams

ZEEK

Wednesday, August 31, 2011 9:35 PM

Seems fake to me, but I thought it sounded fake that they were going to put Hayden Christensen as the fake of Ghost Anakin in Return of the Jedi. So, who knows when it comes to this crap?

OPPYH

Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bramkaandorp:
Funny thing is, there are rumours that the video(s) are fakes.

It has already been confirmed by a rep at Lucasfilm that this is real.

"Yes, the updates are confirmed. We hope fans will wait to see for themselves how they fit into the Saga before making any judgments."

Among the other changes:

-Ewoks now blink in ROTJ

-New JAbbas palace door scene in ROTJ

-New shootout with Solo/Greedo in ANH

-Sebulba now in Jabbas palace in ROTJ

-New Krayt Dragon 'scream' in ANH

That is the list so far

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70's TV FOREVER

MOOSE

Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
It has already been confirmed by a rep at Lucasfilm that this is real.

"Yes, the updates are confirmed. We hope fans will wait to see for themselves how they fit into the Saga before making any judgments."

You mean after we've plunked down our $$ for that crap?

I've been on the fence about buying the BluRays as it is...to hell with them now.

STORYMARK

Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:35 AM

Im about 10 years past getting upset over this kind of thing. I have several versions of the films now. Hell, the best version of ANH Ive seen is a fan-edit (Adywan's excellent ANH Revisited).

So, Im just not going to get bent out of shape. I think all those sad people who claimed Lucas "raped their childhood" shocked me into a sense of perspective where it just doesn't matter.

Im curious to see what's changed. I'll probably like some changes, and dislike others, and then move on.

So far - I don't mind the "Nooo!" I think it works here better than in ROTS, where it is really bad. I don't like the altered Kryatt ragon. The revised Han/Greedo shootout still has Greedo shoot first, but just barely, and it works for me. The blinking Ewok eyes are cool.

I do enjoy seeing some of the meltdowns people have, though.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

OPTIMUS1998

Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:40 AM

ok... watched that clip twice now..., maybe it's just been too long since i've watched ROTJ, but, what changes exactly??

I was a Lima loser for 29 years before "glee" introduced us to the term. -ME

BUP

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:01 AM

The real problem is someone needs to smack George Lucas' hand and say, "No!" This was finished decades ago. Move on.
My mother calls it shooting the artist when the painting is finished so they will leave the thing alone.

OPPYH

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I think all those sad people who claimed Lucas "raped their childhood" shocked me into a sense of perspective where it just doesn't matter.

I have always hated the militant fans. They are the ones that put the biggest barrier between Lucas, and his loyalists.

To be honest, I expected changes. I know he is just trying to bridge the gap between prequels, and the OT. But tweaking a film four times? That just seems like Obsessive compulsive disorder. If Jaws, or Raiders of the Lost Ark were tampered with I'd feel the exact same way.

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70's TV FOREVER

ECGORDON

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:50 AM

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I was fed up with Star Wars in 1983 with the appearance of the Ewoks in RotJ. If he issued the first two films of the original trilogy on blu-ray, without the added scenes and FX, just remastering of the original prints, I'd buy them. Otherwise, I'm done with it.

OPPYH

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:56 AM

Speaking of Angry fanboys, check out what Simon Pegg Tweeted:

"Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice. Another Shitty, clueless revision like Greedo, and young Anakin's ghost. What a fucking shame."

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70's TV FOREVER

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

"Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice."

Absolutely.
Blinking Ewoks are fine.
But more yelling... not so much.

I guess I'm done too.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Speaking of Angry fanboys, check out what Simon Pegg Tweeted:

"Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice..."

I'm no director, but I know what I like. The scene and Vader's actions screamed his thoughts, with out him having uttered 1 word. It was exactly as Luke had described, of the conflict with in him. The INTERNAL struggle Vader was dealing with, up until that pivotal point.

This ? It's comic book material, and patently lame comic book material at best.

Lucas should have just let the whole thing be, after the originals, and started off on an an entirely new saga. He has a universe of characters to pull from , and he easily could have taken up the story of any number of different heroes or villains, across the Empire, or the Republic, at almost any time period.

What a colossal waste.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

SIMONWHO

Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:54 AM

I have no problem with Lucas re-editing the original trilogy into a musical, with a new character called Lorge Gucas delivering a 10 minute pitch for toys, while turning Darth Vader into a compulsive bed-wetter. Just as long as we get the original films made available in the best possible format.

As for me buying this? Noooooooooooo. I'll watch the deleted scenes on YouTube and that'll be that.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, September 1, 2011 12:17 PM

I really don't understand the flack that Lucas gets over this kind of thing. Nobody should be taking these things that seriously.

I'm a fan of Simon Pegg, but I'm really tired of his ranting and raving about what Lucas has done to Star Wars. Lets see what Pegg does for cinema 40 years hence? Dude needs to chill.

And of course Lucas should learn not to over tweak these things but it's his endeavour. Fella can do what the hell he likes with it.

LWAVES

Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Im about 10 years past getting upset over this kind of thing. I have several versions of the films now. Hell, the best version of ANH Ive seen is a fan-edit (Adywan's excellent ANH Revisited).

So, Im just not going to get bent out of shape. I think all those sad people who claimed Lucas "raped their childhood" shocked me into a sense of perspective where it just doesn't matter.

Im curious to see what's changed. I'll probably like some changes, and dislike others, and then move on.

So far - I don't mind the "Nooo!" I think it works here better than in ROTS, where it is really bad. I don't like the altered Kryatt ragon. The revised Han/Greedo shootout still has Greedo shoot first, but just barely, and it works for me. The blinking Ewok eyes are cool.

I do enjoy seeing some of the meltdowns people have, though.

I've seen the Adywan fanedit and it is good although I personally prefer ADigitalMans edits of all six films. He makes Phantom Menace pretty watchable (although there are better versions). There's a hell of a lot of fanedits out there of the six films and people should go looking for them as I'm sure they'll find one they like. And I'm sure HD versions will appear at some point as well.

I have to agree with you on the caring part as well. I'm past caring as I accepted long ago that he would keep releasing these films and keep making changes. I do think he should just leave them alone and be done with it but they're his movies so fair enough, he can do what he wants. He doesn't owe anybody anything. None of the changes drastically alter the story so it really doesn't bother me, most of them are cosmetic or not necessary. Some of the changes definitely don't work well for me (if at all) and I can understand folks not liking them but getting as worked up about it as they do isn't going to change anything in the bigger picture.

The 'raped my childhood' line always makes me laugh at the folks who say it, they need to get a grip with reality and realise what they are actually dealing with - a series of movies. However bad people think the PT is it's still just a series of movies and there are far worse/inferior movies out there, even allowing for individual taste.

At the end of the day different fans want different versions, like the purists who only want the 'true' original versions. I can see some merit to that argument but what if you saw the '78 version of Star Wars and not the '77 version. Should that also be released too?

As for Vader's new 'dialogue' in Jedi it falls into the category of 'not necessary' for me. I'll save judgement on the other changes until I've seen them.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

LWAVES

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
I really don't understand the flack that Lucas gets over this kind of thing. Nobody should be taking these things that seriously.

Agreed again.
Unfortunately so many fanboys feel that they have some kind of ownership to the SW universe because it was 'a life-changing event' for them or just because they have spent so much time, effort and money on it. So when Lucas makes these changes or doesn't release the exact version of the film that the fanboy wants they feel outraged, like it's a personal attack on them or something of theirs.
Personally I do think enough is enough and that he's mucked around with them too much but it's up to him. I'll still be getting the Blu-rays. It'll be worth it to see them in HD.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:57 PM

Quote:
Agreed again.
Unfortunately so many fanboys feel that they have some kind of ownership to the SW universe because it was 'a life-changing event' for them or just because they have spent so much time, effort and money on it. So when Lucas makes these changes or doesn't release the exact version of the film that the fanboy wants they feel outraged, like it's a personal attack on them or something of theirs.
Personally I do think enough is enough and that he's mucked around with them too much but it's up to him. I'll still be getting the Blu-rays. It'll be worth it to see them in HD.

Indeed Lwaves. My own slant on it is that he should leave it alone too, but I know how difficult that can be. I do creative things every day as part of my job and because I'm often under a deadline I have to let it go sooner than I'd like. Often with some of the better ideas left out. Which really eats at you. So if I get a bit of spare time I'll give it another crack and present it again... But it's kinda done it's thing by then and it falls flat. Even if it's better than what was originally done. Fact is it did the job the first time.
I imagine it's similar for Lucas but of course on a grander and more profound scale. He must have so many little things that bug the hell out of him in terms of his own stuff that he can't help but try and implement the odd change here and there. It's probably the same preoccupation that drove him to such standards with the first set of films.
But I think the people who rally up and attack him with comments about how he raped their childhood need to take a moment and try undertake a project themselves. If they feel that strongly and angry about it they should use that to make their own creative endeavours. Much of art is born out of a reaction to what came before it.
Anyway. Chances are Lucas will have Star Wars reimagined in whatever new technology is out there waiting in the wings. It's his schtick. I'm actually surprised he hasn't done the retro 3D thing with them yet.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

YELLOWJACKET

Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:01 PM

Nope. Something's just not right with her smile. Best repaint the Mona Lisa again.

And again and again and again and again and again ad infinitum...

STORYMARK

Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Speaking of Angry fanboys, check out what Simon Pegg Tweeted:

"Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice. Another Shitty, clueless revision like Greedo, and young Anakin's ghost. What a fucking shame."

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70's TV FOREVER

Well, if a celebrity said it....

Really, I thought the young Anakin ghost makes total sense in the context of the story (though the shot looks odd since Hayden wasn't told what they were doing, so has an off expression and is looking the wrong way). But conceptually, it works.

And the added "No" does fit with Lucas' stated structural goals, to have certain elements, particularly audio cues, repeat and parallel between the two trilogies. Granted, my prefered method to address this would be to remove the "No" from ROTS, but Im okay with this way, too.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm actually surprised he hasn't done the retro 3D thing with them yet.

They're currently working on those. They will be released one per year, starting with Episode 1 in February.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
I really don't understand the flack that Lucas gets over this kind of thing. Nobody should be taking these things that seriously.

Agreed again.
Unfortunately so many fanboys feel that they have some kind of ownership to the SW universe because it was 'a life-changing event' for them or just because they have spent so much time, effort and money on it. So when Lucas makes these changes or doesn't release the exact version of the film that the fanboy wants they feel outraged, like it's a personal attack on them or something of theirs.
Personally I do think enough is enough and that he's mucked around with them too much but it's up to him. I'll still be getting the Blu-rays. It'll be worth it to see them in HD.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

I think this hits the nail on the head.

And those guys can be so damned annoying. I have a friend who was the biggest Star Wars fan I knew for years. He had EVERYTHING. Then, about a year ago, he just suddenly decided he hated Lucas and everything Star Wars. But he didn't just limit it - suddenly, if you didn't hate it as much as him, you are some kind of sheet for Lucas - even though he was a bigger "sheep" than anyone. So damned annoying.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

CHRISISALL

Thursday, September 1, 2011 5:49 PM

If Lucas isn't going to erase Jar-Jar from the new version of Phantom Menace, at LEAST I hope it's true that he's gonna CG Yoda- that crappy puppet was really the worst thing in the movie IMO.

The laughing Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, September 1, 2011 6:42 PM

Do not want

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

DJD

Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:08 PM

The continual tinkering speaks more of his lack of original ideas than anything else. It's odd for a creative person not to move on.... if they are actually creative that is. I'm not annoyed because I don't intend to buy it, but I am bemused as to why he'd want to do this. And I also agree that RoJ was pants in the first place

BYTEMITE

Thursday, September 1, 2011 8:27 PM

Quote:
Really, I thought the young Anakin ghost makes total sense in the context of the story (though the shot looks odd since Hayden wasn't told what they were doing, so has an off expression and is looking the wrong way). But conceptually, it works.

And the added "No" does fit with Lucas' stated structural goals, to have certain elements, particularly audio cues, repeat and parallel between the two trilogies. Granted, my prefered method to address this would be to remove the "No" from ROTS, but Im okay with this way, too.

I actually feel the same way. By having Hayden Anakin it's symbolic of Darth Vader being redeemed and his ghost representing the best aspect of him - a young jedi, before he fell to the dark side.

...Even though I don't like Hayden Christensen... Anyway, I get why he did it, and I also get the structural NO element. I think people react the way they do to that because the no in ROTS was delivered so woodenly, so they expect something similarly bad here.

None of the changes seem particularly bad to me... Though I wouldn't mind the Han vs. Greedo scene going back to the original, but the redone version where Han jerks away from the blaster shot is just awful, and anything would be better.

But then, maybe I don't mind that much because I'd already moved on from the Star Wars fandom. Happened a while ago with the books and the EU. Plus I've gotten into a little something called Firefly. :)

I still enjoy the Bioware games and I think they're true to the Star Wars verse, but the EU books have gotten to the point where we seriously need a major reboot or something, they're so convoluted, and all the writers are bickering.

We can keep the Thrawn trilogy. Maybe make those a movie. I'd also like to see the X-wing books get some film time, though then we might have the fans fighting over Stackpole versus Aaron.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm actually surprised he hasn't done the retro 3D thing with them yet.

They're currently working on those. They will be released one per year, starting with Episode 1 in February.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Thanks Storymark. I didn't know that. Figures though.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
The continual tinkering speaks more of his lack of original ideas than anything else. It's odd for a creative person not to move on.... if they are actually creative that is. I'm not annoyed because I don't intend to buy it, but I am bemused as to why he'd want to do this. And I also agree that RoJ was pants in the first place

Well there's a good number of classic paintings that have been x-rayed and shown that beneath the masterpiece there is indeed a 'different' image. One that the artist began but didn't like the direction it was going in. Making corrections and altering your work makes you no less creative. In fact many great artists obsess over the same thing for many years. John Coltrane being one of them and his obsession with 'My favourite things'. Or Picasso with his 'Cubism' phase.

But I share your point of view and wish he wouldn't tamper with it either, but I can also appreciate how difficult it must be for Lucas. From an artistic point of view.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, September 1, 2011 10:53 PM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
If Lucas isn't going to erase Jar-Jar from the new version of Phantom Menace, at LEAST I hope it's true that he's gonna CG Yoda- that crappy puppet was really the worst thing in the movie IMO.

Nice one Chris!

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

YELLOWJACKET

Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:36 PM

Lucas needs us to hear Vader say 'No' so that we know that Vader has reached the 'enough is enough' stage, because throwing the Emperor down a thirty story shaft isn't enough to sell this point on it's own.

Thank you, Lucas. Thank you.

AURAPTOR

Friday, September 2, 2011 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yellowjacket:
Lucas needs us to hear Vader say 'No' so that we know that Vader has reached the 'enough is enough' stage, because throwing the Emperor down a thirty story shaft isn't enough to sell this point on it's own.

Thank you, Lucas. Thank you.

I bet it'll look GREAT on a T-shirt, too!

" Nooo!! "

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

CAUSAL

Friday, September 2, 2011 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Im curious to see what's changed. I'll probably like some changes, and dislike others, and then move on.

Amen. My thoughts exactly.

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DJD

Friday, September 2, 2011 8:19 AM

Whilst I agree that many artists continue to tamper with their work up to a point, those artists generally also produce new art. Lucas seems to be a one trick pony . His only option is to keep going back to that old trick and adjusting it. It's not as if he's making it better though...

The Directors Cuts of a number of films are better than the originals. The LotRs films, Kingdom of Heaven, Aliens, etc. Can anyone say the same of the Star Wars films?

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 9:04 AM

Hey DJD

Quote:
Whilst I agree that many artists continue to tamper with their work up to a point, those artists generally also produce new art. Lucas seems to be a one trick pony . His only option is to keep going back to that old trick and adjusting it. It's not as if he's making it better though...

Well that's a fair point, though I think many forget his pioneering work with sound design, for which cinema is all the better for. While not essentially art, it has to an extent allowed artistic consideration. Anyway I'm not trying to put a square peg in a round hole, you're right. He has seemingly dedicated his artistic endeavours to the one idea. However it is a great idea and seemingly an endless pool from which to draw from. Personally I'm hoping he gives Joe Johnston the go ahead to tell Han Chewie and Boba Fet's back story. Something that Johnston has been trying to persuade George to do for many years now.

Quote:
The Directors Cuts of a number of films are better than the originals. The LotRs films, Kingdom of Heaven, Aliens, etc. Can anyone say the same of the Star Wars films?

I've only seen the Aliens directors cut and I personally didn't think it was necessary. But I see your point.

George Lucas is now a much older man and probably battle weary. In his mind the changes are for the better. The conflict I believe lies in the fact that a sixy plus year old man is tweaking a twenty year old man's pet project. It's just George getting older. It's a little like having your grandad tell you what's cool.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

SIMONWHO

Friday, September 2, 2011 9:16 AM

Actually, each time I read the thread title, I picture Joss watching Lucas from behind a curtain, going "He's losing his mind! And I'm reaping all the benefits."

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Actually, each time I read the thread title, I picture Joss watching Lucas from behind a curtain, going "He's losing his mind! And I'm reaping all the benefits."

Wedding Singer reference. Nice :D

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I've only seen the Aliens directors cut and I personally didn't think it was necessary. But I see your point.

really? I could see that with some of the extra colonist stuff, though I liked it - but the added subplot with Ripley's dead daughter adds SO much more weight to her drive to save Newt.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 3:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
Whilst I agree that many artists continue to tamper with their work up to a point, those artists generally also produce new art. Lucas seems to be a one trick pony . His only option is to keep going back to that old trick and adjusting it. It's not as if he's making it better though...

Creating non-linear editing, helping create surround sound, creating several quantum leaps in production, forming freakin' Pixar, not to mention the new film he has coming in a couple months.... yeah, one trick.

Uninformed people are funny.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

DJD

Friday, September 2, 2011 3:52 PM

Lol ! And rude people are hilarious aren't they? I'm well aware of GLs credits. I was talking about as a film maker and writer not as a technician and a businessman. I guess Howard the Duck is on your must-watch list? Oh, and as big old Indiana Jones fan, Lucas has done as much to stall and bugger-up that franchise than help it. I dare say that if were not for Speilberg we'd have cgi monkeys in Raiders by now....

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:02 PM

Storymark wrote:

Quote:
really? I could see that with some of the extra colonist stuff, though I liked it - but the added subplot with Ripley's dead daughter adds SO much more weight to her drive to save Newt.

Yeah. I didn't think it was needed. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
Lol ! And rude people are hilarious aren't they? I'm well aware of GLs credits. I was talking about as a film maker and writer not as a technician and a businessman. I guess Howard the Duck is on your must-watch list? Oh, and as big old Indiana Jones fan, Lucas has done as much to stall and bugger-up that franchise than help it. I dare say that if were not for Speilberg we'd have cgi monkeys in Raiders by now....

I was a bit rude, and was just coming back to delete that part (pointless now, I guess), so I appologize for that. Nonetheless, I stand by the rest.

You assumption about the Monkeys in Indy 4, for instance, is nothing but an assumption. Spielberg loves CGI just as much. Plus, if you look back at the story session notes from Raiders, when they were originally conceiving the character and his world - it was Spielberg who always had the strangest, most out-there suggestions, and it was Lucas who made a point of keeping the character grounded and believable. Adding Mutt to 4 was ALL Spielberg.

Insisting that everything goofy comes from Lucas is simply not factual.

Beyond that - he's the most powerful Director in Hollywood - if Spielberg didn't want the monkeys, there would be no monkeys, period.

Maybe you were aware of Lucas' other accomplishments, and intentionally left them out, but you've once again shown you are leaning more on assumption than fact.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Storymark wrote:
Quote:
really? I could see that with some of the extra colonist stuff, though I liked it - but the added subplot with Ripley's dead daughter adds SO much more weight to her drive to save Newt.

Yeah. I didn't think it was needed. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

Wow. Huh.... Couldn't disagree more. But okay...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

OLDGUY

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I was fed up with Star Wars in 1983 with the appearance of the Ewoks in RotJ. If he issued the first two films of the original trilogy on blu-ray, without the added scenes and FX, just remastering of the original prints, I'd buy them. Otherwise, I'm done with it.

Agreed.. I imagined quite a different story line..where Darth was the clone of Luke's father who was an outcast jedi who turned out to be bobbafet..given that bounty hunter was the only one slick enough to catch them to begin with and since he was hidden behind his helmit..it coulda been a great path to take...but ol George had to go try and sell some little kids on some teddy bears...wtf?

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oldguy:
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I was fed up with Star Wars in 1983 with the appearance of the Ewoks in RotJ. If he issued the first two films of the original trilogy on blu-ray, without the added scenes and FX, just remastering of the original prints, I'd buy them. Otherwise, I'm done with it.

Agreed.. I imagined quite a different story line..where Darth was the clone of Luke's father who was an outcast jedi who turned out to be bobbafet..given that bounty hunter was the only one slick enough to catch them to begin with and since he was hidden behind his helmit..it coulda been a great path to take...but ol George had to go try and sell some little kids on some teddy bears...wtf?

....nevermind.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
Lol ! And rude people are hilarious aren't they? I'm well aware of GLs credits. I was talking about as a film maker and writer not as a technician and a businessman. I guess Howard the Duck is on your must-watch list? Oh, and as big old Indiana Jones fan, Lucas has done as much to stall and bugger-up that franchise than help it. I dare say that if were not for Speilberg we'd have cgi monkeys in Raiders by now....

See this one confuses me. Lucas writes/directs Star Wars episodes I, II, III & IV and is slammed.

Lucas co-writes Indy I, II, III, & IV but Spielberg directs Indy I, II, III, & IV and yet Lucas gets slammed?

How's that work?

Surely some of the blame must go to Spielberg - if you're of the opinion that Crystal Skull was bad. You don't think there's a bias there? Not specifically from you DJD, but in general I mean.
Me I like Crystal skull - but I can see why it's not for everyone, but the vitriol lashed out solely against Lucas... That aint on.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
Lol ! And rude people are hilarious aren't they? I'm well aware of GLs credits. I was talking about as a film maker and writer not as a technician and a businessman. I guess Howard the Duck is on your must-watch list? Oh, and as big old Indiana Jones fan, Lucas has done as much to stall and bugger-up that franchise than help it. I dare say that if were not for Speilberg we'd have cgi monkeys in Raiders by now....

See this one confuses me. Lucas writes/directs Star Wars episodes I, II, III & IV and is slammed.

Lucas co-writes Indy I, II, III, & IV but Spielberg directs Indy I, II, III, & IV and yet Lucas gets slammed?

How's that work?

Surely some of the blame must go to Spielberg - if you're of the opinion that Crystal Skull was bad. You don't think there's a bias there? Not specifically from you DJD, but in general I mean.
Me I like Crystal skull - but I can see why it's not for everyone, but the vitriol lashed out soleyl against Lucas... That's aint on.

Exactly.

When it comes down to it, unless it's a first timer, or maybe someone coming back from a huge flop - the director has final say on most things. And when it's freakin' Spielberg - he has final say on whatever the hell he wants.

And Indy was Lucas' idea in the first place - yet he only gets credit for what's bad. It's nonsensical, and just shows how biased and inaccurate fan-rage can be.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:25 PM

Gorram double

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:26 PM

Originally posted by Storymark:

Quote:
Wow. Huh.... Couldn't disagree more, who needs character arcs? But okay...

Ha, yeah we often disagree. I felt the Abyss was burdened with similar dead weight. Not sure why you make the leap that I don't appreciate character arcs (I take it that's the implication?). Did you think Ripley had no arc without that?

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:29 PM

Doh! And now we agree on something. Don't I got egg on my face. Sorry about that Storymark.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

DJD

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:41 PM

Don't get me wrong - I loved Star Wars back in the 70s and 80s and I loved raiders and ToD. Lucas did great stuff back then and you wouldn't have found a bigger star wars freak than me back in the day. His problem seems to have been when he realised that he could sell toys through the movies. Irvin Kershner said as much - RoJ was about that. CS was about that too (really musguided as Indy was never that sort of franchise). Why do I blame George? Well, the biggest thing is that he held up Indy 4 for 'the right script'. Now if he thought CS was the right script then he has totally lost it! There's not one scene of that movie that REALLY works (and yes that SS fault too). Also for the record , I dont mind the SW prequels - I actually like Attack of the Clones. I think it's as much about liking Ewan McGregor as anything though. I find him very watchable in most things he's in.

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Wow. Huh.... Couldn't disagree more, who needs character arcs? But okay...

Ha, yeah we often disagree. I felt the Abyss was burdened with similar dead weight. Not sure why you make the leap that I don't appreciate character arcs (I take it that's the implication?). Did you think Ripley had no arc without that?

I went back and excised the character arc part, as it was overly aggressive...

But, I do think her arc is greatly diminished by loosing that aspect, yes. Sure, you could assume that she's so dedicated to Newt just out of biological instincts, but I feel it's FAR more powerful for her to have lost a child, and see Newt as a surrogate. It gives her a much stronger arc, based on her background, rather than an arbitrary biological drive.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

ZEEK

Friday, September 2, 2011 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oldguy:
Agreed.. I imagined quite a different story line..where Darth was the clone of Luke's father who was an outcast jedi who turned out to be bobbafet..given that bounty hunter was the only one slick enough to catch them to begin with and since he was hidden behind his helmit..it coulda been a great path to take...but ol George had to go try and sell some little kids on some teddy bears...wtf?

Huh? So Boba Fett would be a jedi and Luke and Leia's actual father. He at some point became a bounty hunter and was also working for his evil clone during Empire. He turned his son over to his evil clone and just up and left? Would he just not know that Luke is his son or would he be doing all that just to test Luke or something? Seems like a pretty deadly game to play.

Plus then it would be really difficult for Obiwan to downplay his BS about Vader betraying and murdering Luke's father. "Uh you see I mean...well...I've got this thing where I like to leave right when it looks like a person is likely to die and just assume it happened. It's a minor flaw in my honest opinion."

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 6:23 PM

LOL. Yeah. Ive heard a lot of "Boba should have been the other Skywalker" theories (which I could see working) but Boba as Anakin.... yeah, doesn't quote fit.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

OLDGUY

Friday, September 2, 2011 8:11 PM

ok you young bucks... (man these star war geeks are intense ) (grin)

remember that at the time I formulated this story plot, I only had the first 2 movies (epi's 4 & 5) to work from..Lucas hadn't yet screwed up things and then made them worse with epis 1-3.

so I was seeing it as, Darth being the evil clone - they made a big reference to clone wars in the first movie..so it seemed a possibility...and Ani hiding and watching over Luke from the Boba aspect...as a jedi he could lay low just as well as Obi did and certainly that lil green munchkin puppet guy whatever his name was (I'm kidding!! don't freak)
so anyway..it's possible that Yoda and Obi really wouldn't be in tune and that Ani could continue to lay low but what better way to maintain inside track with the empire than to be free to function off grid legally as a bounty hunter...
I didn't loose any sleep over it..it was just a fun movie series for me.. not a new religion..not like I spent $4,000 in quarters in the sit down video game on my lunch break...ok...well..maybe I did that...

STORYMARK

Friday, September 2, 2011 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oldguy:
ok you young bucks... (man these star war geeks are intense ) (grin)

If you a couple questions and an "LOL" are intense.... you maaaaay want to stay off the internet.

Quote:
remember that at the time I formulated this story plot, I only had the first 2 movies (epi's 4 & 5) to work from..

Oh, I think we both got that. Zeek's questions/points didn't reference the prequels, and were limited to story points established in ANH and ESB.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

ZEEK

Friday, September 2, 2011 9:00 PM

Yeah I got all that. I'm just trying to make the pieces fit. So, he was watching over Luke but just left him on Cloud City with his evil clone while also taking a few pot shots at Luke? What about Leia? He pretty much handed her over to Vader unless he didn't know she was on the Millennium Falcon before he tipped the Empire off. I can't think of a way those actions would have actually been good.

OPPYH

Friday, September 2, 2011 10:48 PM

OK, course change.

The prequels suck because:

-Darth Vader, the coolest villain in cinematic history didn't need a back story. His mystery, and aura are tainted by the actor Hayden Christensen. Unless you are a teenage girl, Anakin had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. None. Unless of course you count stupid quotes, and a quick temper as a couple.

-They started in the wrong place.
If you gonna make 3 prequel films.....START WHEN THINGS GET INTERESTING!! Lucas should have started with episode III, and had the following 2 after the Vader becomes Vader.

-Too much CGI.
For the sake of all thats holy....Where are the physical sets? Green Screens are for weathermen.

-No chemistry.
Anakin and Padme, the most 'forced' screen relationship in recent memory.

Sorry,
had to get that off my chest. At the expense of making the OT more prequel accessible, Lucas continues his alterations. Fine for those that love the prequels, torture for the ones that loathe them.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

TWO

Friday, September 2, 2011 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
-They started in the wrong place.
If you gonna make 3 prequel films.....START WHEN THINGS GET INTERESTING!! Lucas should have started with episode III, and had the following 2 after the Vader becomes Vader.

Sorry,
had to get that off my chest.

Finally a wise & bold solution to the puzzle that is the prequel. I've seen many criticisms, but they all involve changing a scene here and there or sharpening the dialog.
Kaylee said it best about the Phantom Menace: “Sometimes a thing so broke, it can't be fixed.”

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

CHRISISALL

Saturday, September 3, 2011 12:46 AM

Two, that was pretty gorram funny!!!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, September 3, 2011 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Wow. Huh.... Couldn't disagree more, who needs character arcs? But okay...

Ha, yeah we often disagree. I felt the Abyss was burdened with similar dead weight. Not sure why you make the leap that I don't appreciate character arcs (I take it that's the implication?). Did you think Ripley had no arc without that?

I went back and excised the character arc part, as it was overly aggressive...

But, I do think her arc is greatly diminished by loosing that aspect, yes. Sure, you could assume that she's so dedicated to Newt just out of biological instincts, but I feel it's FAR more powerful for her to have lost a child, and see Newt as a surrogate. It gives her a much stronger arc, based on her background, rather than an arbitrary biological drive.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

That's fair and I can see why you think it stronger.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

THESOMNAMBULIST

Saturday, September 3, 2011 2:08 AM

Originally posted by OPPYH:

The prequels suck because:

Quote:
-Darth Vader, the coolest villain in cinematic history didn't need a back story.

So true!

Quote:
-Too much CGI.
For the sake of all thats holy....Where are the physical sets? Green Screens are for weathermen.

I agree with this too. There's also something else here which is that a lot of actors are in the traditional mold and the idea of working with no sets I think affects their acting. For all the negativity toward Christensen I personally think that Ewan is equally as poor. In time I think there will emerge a generation of cinematic actor who is confident in front of green screens. Presently there's always a hint of things being just a little off.

Quote:
Sorry, had to get that off my chest. At the expense of making the OT more prequel accessible, Lucas continues his alterations. Fine for those that love the prequels, torture for the ones that loathe them.

Ha,Ha.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

DJD

Saturday, September 3, 2011 7:22 AM

The Vader-didn't-need-a-backstory bit is certainly true :)

I remember back in the late 70s loving Splinter of the Minds Eye , the first Star Wars spin off novel. I read it again recently and still kind of wish they'd made a movie out of it ....

LWAVES

Saturday, September 3, 2011 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

The prequels suck because:

Quote:
-Darth Vader, the coolest villain in cinematic history didn't need a back story.

So true!

It's so much more than just Vader.
Boba Fett worked as a really cool character partly because you didn't see much of him and knew very little about him. The same goes for the briefly mentioned Clone Wars. Again the power of it worked because it was a mystery, your own imagination would fill in the gaps.
But my biggest issue with the PT is the fact that they explained the force. The one thing over everything else that didn't need explaining. I'm sure everyone got exactly what it was from Ben's speech on the Falcon after they left Tatooine. To then have it diluted to something in the bloodstream was a huge slap in the face. To me this was the worst part of all the prequels, even worse than Jar Jar.

Quote:

For all the negativity toward Christensen I personally think that Ewan is equally as poor. In time I think there will emerge a generation of cinematic actor who is confident in front of green screens. Presently there's always a hint of things being just a little off.

I agree and I actually felt sorry for Ewan. He was becoming an established actor who had done some decent work at the time. He also grew up as a huge SW fan, his uncle was in the OT and then Lucas wants him to play a major role in the prequels. Who wouldn't say yes. There is a behind the scenes clip of the saber fight between Obi-Wan, Qui-gon and Maul where he gets kicked off the platform. His reaction after they shout cut just says it all. He has a big grin and looks like an over-excited kid.
And then you get the final result and even straight after Phantom was released you could listen to any interview about SW with Ewan and you could hear the disappointment in his voice. He's too professional to openly slag them off but if you read into what he says and the way he says it you can easily gather what he really thinks. In a Top Gear interview a few years ago he said that his films 'weren't very good'. I've heard him talk about the blue/green screen work as 'not really acting' and being more of a technical exercise. He also said that he's happy with what he did in the PT but it's not how he likes to work or how he was used to working having come from low budget, indie movies.
On a personal level it must have been disheartening for him to see the final results but I think he was a good choice to cast as Obi-wan and I think he did what he could with the role but none of the actors were really given anything to work with. Except maybe tennis balls and carboard cutouts.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

DJD

Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:56 PM

Lol. I thought Ewan was the best thing about the films by far. I love the bit in his Long Way Down documentary where he visits the Skywalker homestead in Tunisia. None of the tourists recognise him...

BYTEMITE

Sunday, September 4, 2011 3:12 AM

Oh yeah, Ewan's Obi Wan had the only flavour, humour, and character in the entire three prequels. The only one who seemed to really be trying. And he sparkled because of it. It's too bad Natalie was in an awkward acting period, and Hayden, well. Though Lucas's romance dialogue really needs work, and no one could have read those lines.

REAVERINA1985RIVIERA

Monday, September 19, 2011 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Quote:
Originally posted by djd:
Lol ! And rude people are hilarious aren't they? I'm well aware of GLs credits. I was talking about as a film maker and writer not as a technician and a businessman. I guess Howard the Duck is on your must-watch list? Oh, and as big old Indiana Jones fan, Lucas has done as much to stall and bugger-up that franchise than help it. I dare say that if were not for Speilberg we'd have cgi monkeys in Raiders by now....

See this one confuses me. Lucas writes/directs Star Wars episodes I, II, III & IV and is slammed.

Lucas co-writes Indy I, II, III, & IV but Spielberg directs Indy I, II, III, & IV and yet Lucas gets slammed?

How's that work?

Surely some of the blame must go to Spielberg - if you're of the opinion that Crystal Skull was bad. You don't think there's a bias there? Not specifically from you DJD, but in general I mean.
Me I like Crystal skull - but I can see why it's not for everyone, but the vitriol lashed out solely against Lucas... That aint on.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

I'm still pissed Spielberg replaced the guns with walkie-talkies in E.T., it took away alot of the feeling of peril when Eliot escapes on his bike.

---------------------------------------------
How many Jaynes does it take to change a light bulb?

Two. One to try to put it in and another to find a bigger hammer.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 19, 2011 10:08 PM

I actually liked Crystal Skull just fine. I mean, what, God's wrath exploding from the Arc Of The Covenant in a life-sucking sandstorm was fine, aliens aren't?

Anyway. The difference between the Star Wars prequels and the new Indiana Jones probably was directing, but I still stand by my "Star Wars awful romance dialogue" comment.

WEICHI

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:23 PM

Cannot help but react to the idea that artists should move on and stop tinkering with their work with this snippet of dialog from one of my favorite films. Lets see if anyone recognizes the film. The female is speaking to the male about her late father...

M - What was he?
F - A Painter.
M - Ah. Was he a good one?
F - Well, I thought so. But people didn't understand him.
M - Yes, that's often the trouble.
F - He painted trees. At least it was one tree.
M - You mean he painted the same tree over and over again?
F - Yes. You see, he had a theory that if you should find one perfect thing, or place or person, you should stick to it. Do you think that's very silly?

In a word - YES!!!

See how I'm not hitting him, I think I've grown!

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually liked Crystal Skull just fine. I mean, what, God's wrath exploding from the Arc Of The Covenant in a life-sucking sandstorm was fine, aliens aren't?

My problems with that movie had zero to do with aliens, and everything to do with a terrible script.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ReaverInA1985Riviera:

I'm still pissed Spielberg replaced the guns with walkie-talkies in E.T., it took away alot of the feeling of peril when Eliot escapes on his bike.

---------------------------------------------

If it helps any, at an anniversary screening of Raiders last week, Spielberg said he regretted making that change, and would be putting out the unaltered version of ET on Blu Ray.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

TWO

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually liked Crystal Skull just fine. I mean, what, God's wrath exploding from the Arc Of The Covenant in a life-sucking sandstorm was fine, aliens aren't?

My problems with that movie had zero to do with aliens, and everything to do with a terrible script.

There is a list of 50 things wrong with the Indy IV script: http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/2008/05/50-flaws-of-indy-iv.html

Sadly, there was a beautiful script that Lucas rejected because he wanted to cram into the movie Shia LaBeouf, Indy's worthless Mutt. http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/2008/06/50-strengths-of-darabonts
-draft.html

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

My problems with that movie had zero to do with aliens, and everything to do with a terrible script.

I like Crystal Skull for what it is, but I finally have to agree with you that the script was severely lacking.
It was 'The Closer.'

The laughing Chrisisall

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:

Sadly, there was a beautiful script that Lucas rejected because he wanted to cram into the movie Shia LaBeouf, Indy's worthless Mutt. http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/2008/06/50-strengths-of-darabonts
-draft.html

Really, Darabont's draft was only slightly better than what they filmed, and still contains most of the bad stuff from Crystal Skull (including the notorious "Nuke the ridge" scene, and instead of silly CGI ants, it would have had a big silly CGI snake). It was really a wash, better in some areas, worse in others.

And get your facts straight - adding Shia was all Spielberg. He's made that clear himself several times. Not that he was the problem with the movie, either, but again - get the story right.

Here is a breakdown, from a screenwriter POV, on the problems with both scripts:

Crystal Skull:
http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2011/03/10-screenwriting-no-nos-you-c
an-learn.html

City of the Gods:
http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2011/03/indiana-jones-and-city-of-god
s-darabont.html

And for contrast - why Raiders rocks so hard:
http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2011/03/10-screenwriting-tips-you-can
-learn.html

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

TWO

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 1:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Really, Darabont's draft was only slightly better than what they filmed...

Best way to test the soundness of Lucas's judgment is to read what Lucas rejected: www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Purported_Indiana_Jones_4_original_screenplay_d
raft "You can't stop the signal."

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And get your facts straight - adding Shia was all Spielberg.

Does Spielberg have a gentleman's wager with George Lucas that Shia LaBeouf can be made a movie star if you put him into enough movies?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:41 AM

Well, the first analysis linked is already way off. Hero characters are by nature supposed to be reactive. There's even a trope about it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainsActHeroesReact

In Raiders, Indy was reactive, avoiding traps, and very nearly being left by his treacherous side kick.

Also, I had no problem following the plot in Crystal Skull, which is supposedly muddled. Honestly, I think the way it got from point A to point B was fine, consistent with other Indiana Jones movies, and I wasn't bothered by Harrison Ford being older, he's still good enough to carry it.

Whenever I talk to people, it always seems like the main objection was either the nuke the fridge sequence or the aliens. But there's actually a lot of fun action sequences in the middle.

If we want to talk about fourth films from a trilogy I think are bad, I more think of Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides and of course A Phantom Menace. Crystal Skull was still an entertaining movie, while I wasn't entertained by the other two examples.

And out of the Indiana Jones franchise, you want to complain about Crystal Skull when Temple of Doom exists? I dunno, I just think people are being too picky.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:
I dunno, I just think people are being too picky.

I agree with you Byte. With this film [Crystal Skull] and most of what Lucas does.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 2:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Really, Darabont's draft was only slightly better than what they filmed...
Best way to test the soundness of Lucas's judgment is to read what Lucas rejected: www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Purported_Indiana_Jones_4_original_screenplay_d
raft "You can't stop the signal."

Uh... I did.

Did you not read my post....?

Im comparing the filmed draft the the Darabont draft - the scripts under discussion. There were literally dozens of scripts written for Indy 4. But YOU were the one championing Darabont's.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, the first analysis linked is already way off. Hero characters are by nature supposed to be reactive. There's even a trope about it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainsActHeroesReact

That might be a "TV trope" - but it is considered a big no-no in screenwriting. Technical similarities aside, they are two different mediums, with rather different rules.

Yes, Heroes react. But they can't JUST be reactive. They must take action themselves, or they are considered passive characters - which is supposed to be avoided in a lead character whenever possible.

And Indy was plenty active in his other films.

Quote:
In Raiders, Indy was reactive, avoiding traps, and very nearly being left by his treacherous side kick.

Oh, okay. You are looking at the word in far too simplistic of terms.

Yes, he reacts to things, of course. But the point is - he was in that cave of his own volition, going after something. He had a clearly defined goal - something he was after. The reactive actions stem from that.

When the Gov guys came looking for info on the Ark, Indy took it on himself to go after it. Then he reacted as things happened, but the action was still driven by his choices.

Compare this to his being captured, dumped from a trunk, then being led around for the first act (and really, the entire film). He had no goal, he was a tool of others who had a goal.

Did you even read the article, or just stop with the heading???

Quote:
Also, I had no problem following the plot in Crystal Skull, which is supposedly muddled. Honestly, I think the way it got from point A to point B was fine, consistent with other Indiana Jones movies,

Muddled doesn't just mean hard to follow. It relates to tone, pacing, and flow. I bet you've seen plenty of bad movies that still made sense, but could have told their stories better.

It also has to do with how the exposition is delivered - is it done as part of the set-up in the first act, like in Raiders? Or is it done as part of the action, like Temple of Doom or Last Crusade? Or is it done in a pace-stopping 10 minute scene of people talking in a tend - halfway through the movie - like Crystal Skull.

Just making sense is the easy part. That doesn't make it good.

Quote:

And out of the Indiana Jones franchise, you want to complain about Crystal Skull when Temple of Doom exists?

It has some goofy stuff in it as well, but structurally, it's a much better script.

Temple of Doom is the only Indy movie where Indy actually has a positive outcome on the story. In all three of the other films, if Indy had just gone home halfway through, the bad guys never would have found what they were looking for anyway, and everything would have been fine.

Quote:
I dunno, I just think people are being too picky.

I think people are too eager to praise a bad movie that tickles their nostalgia bone.

But it's all subjective.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:10 PM

Double.

OPPYH

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:36 PM

http://screenrant.com/indiana-jones-5-raiders-lost-ark-anniversary-rot
hc-131609/

Well, at least Harrison Ford is optimistic about playing Indy again.

Oh, and Spielberg offering Ford the part of Dr. Alan Grant in the original Jurassic Park...?...
Why Harrison, why didn't you do it? Talk about an amazing "what if" scenario.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:14 PM

Ford has become known for turning down good roles over the last couple decades. Most notoriously bailing on Traffic (the role ended up going to Michael Douglass).

He also turned down George Clooney's Oscar-winning role in Syriana, Kevin Costner's in JFK, Liam Neeson's In Schindler's List, Val Kilmer's in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Nick Nolte's in Cape Fear.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

TWO

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
[Ford] also turned down George Clooney's Oscar-winning role in Syriana, Kevin Costner's in JFK, Liam Neeson's In Schindler's List, Val Kilmer's in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Nick Nolte's in Cape Fear.

The verso is so: Neither of Ford's two most famous roles (Han Solo and Indiana Jones) were offered to him first. Tom Selleck was the first choice to play Indiana Jones and Christopher Walken was the first choice to play Han Solo. - www.imdb.com/name/nm0000148/bio

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
[Ford] also turned down George Clooney's Oscar-winning role in Syriana, Kevin Costner's in JFK, Liam Neeson's In Schindler's List, Val Kilmer's in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Nick Nolte's in Cape Fear.
The verso is so: Neither of Ford's two most famous roles (Han Solo and Indiana Jones) were offered to him first. Tom Selleck was the first choice to play Indiana Jones and Christopher Walken was the first choice to play Han Solo. - www.imdb.com/name/nm0000148/bio

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

You're right, and a little wrong on those.

Walken did audition for Han, as did Kurt Russel, but neither was offered the role. Lucas cast by ensemble, not individually. And as he was having people come in, he used Ford as a stand-in when other actors couldn't be there (he was doing carpentry at the studio), so Ford read with more groups than anyone, and quickly became the favorite.

In the case of Indy, Spielberg wanted Ford from the beginning, but Lucas was resistant, having just done two movies with him. That's why Lucas pushed for Selleck.

Spielberg originally wanted Fo

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BLACKOUTNIGHTS

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:31 PM

There's just so many unnecessary changes. I don't understand it.

When it happens, and I refuse to believe it won't, I hope he lets other people handle the film adaptation of Heir to the Empire.

That was the best thing to happen to the franchise since the 80s.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:43 PM

Tvtropes ARE for screen writing.

It's generally not the hero who drives the plot, but the villain, and the hero tries to stop the villain. This is true in Indiana Jones as much as just about any other hero vs. villain set up you could think of. Which is why that was a tvtrope.

Quote:
Compare this to his being captured, dumped from a trunk, then being led around for the first act (and really, the entire film). He had no goal, he was a tool of others who had a goal.

Sorry, just don't see this as that much different from having to then having to recover the staff and staff head, then rescue Marion being captured, then escape from the snake pit, and then stop the Nazis from stealing the arc. Or much different from being played by a female Nazi double-agent spy for most of the movie.

Quote:
Did you even read the article, or just stop with the heading?

I read the section about heroes being the plot drivers and stopped because it's completely wrong.

Whoever wrote that article doesn't appear to have the slightest notion what they're talking about.

Quote:
Or is it done in a pace-stopping 10 minute scene of people talking in a tend - halfway through the movie - like Crystal Skull.

Maybe, but considering I don't even remember that part, because I was enjoying all the good action sequences around it, maybe it also wasn't that big of a deal-breaker.

Now you want a bad, boring exposition scene, go watch the Godzilla film with Matthew Broderick. This one I don't think really even compares.

Quote:
I think people are too eager to praise a bad movie that tickles their nostalgia bone.

Oh please, I took back the thing about "you don't like it because of the aliens," you can at least pay attention to what I've said in this thread to contradict that. Like about how I don't like the Star Wars Prequels.

Quote:
But it's all subjective.

Apparently so.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:13 PM

Quote:
Sorry, just don't see this as that much different from having to then having to recover the staff and staff head, then rescue Marion being captured, then escape from the snake pit, and then stop the Nazis from stealing the arc. Or much different from being played by a female Nazi double-agent spy for most of the movie.

You've made that clear.

Quote:
Oh please, I took back the thing about "you don't like it because of the aliens," you can at least pay attention to what I've said in this thread to contradict that. Like about how I don't like the Star Wars Prequels.

Oh, it's okay for you to make a comment on those who don't like it - but out of line for me to do the same for those who do.

Gotcha.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:41 PM

No, I'm asking you to be consistent with what you've asked me to do, which was not to oversimplify or misinterpret your motivations. Fair is fair.

And don't turn this thread into a "Gotcha" thing, that's adding that same old element of "I'm right you're wrong" bit of nonsense into something which you just admitted was subjective.

I don't play that game.

JAMERON4EVA

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bup:
The real problem is someone needs to smack George Lucas' hand and say, "No!" This was finished decades ago. Move on.
My mother calls it shooting the artist when the painting is finished so they will leave the thing alone.

What everyone ignores is, if you dont like it, you DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT! You have the older editions you can watch, keep the fucking VCR working, and pop in the original VHS. Keep the DVD's, it's just a movie. It isn't like he's using "Old Jedi mind-tricks" to get you too buy it, *sigh*

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

"We mustn't over stimulate young minds. Das ist verboten!" - Rappy

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:56 PM

Yeah, no kidding.

How DARE he release the movies in a new format, without bowing to the demands of the overly-vocal minority.

Meanwhile - they sold like hotcakes. Instantly becoming the highest selling catalog (ie: not new release) Blu Rays ever, despite costing close to $100. Because most people don't get as bent out of shape as internet fanbois.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, I'm asking you to be consistent with what you've asked me to do, which was not to oversimplify or misinterpret your motivations. Fair is fair.

And don't turn this thread into a "Gotcha" thing, that's adding that same old element of "I'm right you're wrong" bit of nonsense into something which you just admitted was subjective.

I don't play that game.

There's subjective, and subjective. Many people thing Firefly is crap. Many people think the Transformers movies are good.

Subjective opinions, yes. Neither one holds a modicum of credibility.... in my opinion.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:10 PM

Quote:
Many people think the Transformers movies are good.

...Heh.

I actually didn't go see them. I was never into Transformers as a kid. Doesn't appeal to me.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Many people think the Transformers movies are good.

...Heh.

I actually didn't go see them. I was never into Transformers as a kid. Doesn't appeal to me.

I saw the first, and disliked it overall, but cut it some slack for a few cool scenes.

The second one a friend talked me into seeing - and it was the worst 2 and a half hours I spent that summer.

I wised up and skipped the 3rd.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

THESOMNAMBULIST

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Storymark:

Quote:
Crystal Skull: http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2011/03/10-screenwriting-no-nos-you-c
an-learn.html

Well some interesting points raised but trouble with articles such as these is that they're always after the fact. Faults are easy to point out in hindsight and the idea of turning creativity into a formula is counter intuitive to my mind.

Some of the points or 'No Nos' (horrible phrase) pointed out here are contradicted by a film such as Bladerunner. So the idea of having 'rules' to screenwriting is redundant. But I think the big mistake with an article such as this is that it negates to consider the era in which these films were made.

In the article this is said:
"NEVER MAKE THINGS CONVENIENT OR EASY FOR YOUR CHARACTERS
You remember the truck chase in Raiders? Remember how Indy had to use every ounce of strength, every punch, every kick, every last brain cell (cleverly sliding underneath the truck so as not to get smushed). He worked his tail off to get control of that truck. Here? Everything, from fights to escapes are just HANDED OUT to our heroes. That 15 minute long tent scene I mentioned above? How did they get away? Shia KNOCKS OVER A TABLE! Are you kidding me? When Indy is shot into the desert with the Russian after the warehouse scene, what happens when he comes to a stop? The Russian has fallen asleep! In the back of the truck arguing with Marion? Indy KICKS the guard in the ass when he’s not looking, resulting in him passing out! But the worst is when our characters accidentally fall into a river, get dumped down three successive waterfalls, and miraculously happen to end up RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MYSTERIOUS CAVE THEY’VE BEEN LOOKING FOR! This is a huge reason why the Indy 4 experience feels so unsatisfying. Our characters don’t earn anything. They’re HANDED everything. So please, always make things difficult for you characters. And make sure they earn their way."

Well nothing seemed more convenient to me than Indy and Marion shutting their eyes when the wrath of God passes through the Nazi's at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, yet that scene still works. So can it really be as simple as this article claims?

Of course not.

ZEEK

Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:09 PM

A little further evidence for Georgie's case file.

LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
LINK CONTAINS CLONE WARS CARTOON SPOILERS!!!!!
http://tv.ign.com/articles/119/1199764p1.html

my comment about the link

Select to view spoiler:

Seriously? He was just chillin somewhere for like 10 years? *sigh*

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:16 PM

Yeah, Im sure they havn't thought of that.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

ZEEK

Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah, Im sure they havn't thought of that.

That sounds like sarcasm, but with Lucas it also sounds incredibly likely. Too difficult to parse.

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:38 PM

Aside from there being little to support that than fanboi hatred - Maybe you're not aware of this, but Lucas doesn't have a lot to do with the plotting or writing on the series. David Feloni runs the show.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

ZEEK

Thursday, October 13, 2011 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Aside from there being little to support that than fanboi hatred - Maybe you're not aware of this, but Lucas doesn't have a lot to do with the plotting or writing on the series. David Feloni runs the show.

Got me. Oh wait.

Quote from spoilery article:

Select to view spoiler:

The idea to bring back Darth Maul came, as many Clone Wars storylines do, from George Lucas.

OPPYH

Friday, October 14, 2011 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

How DARE he release the movies in a new format, without bowing to the demands of the overly-vocal minority.

Just out of curiosity, If Joss Whedon decided to alter episodes of Firefly(for the worse) never to have the original versions to be available again, would you praise him for it, or be upset?
It's clear you could care less about the SW changes....but what about something you really like? I know it's just a "what if" scenario but your "I know best attitude" is really wearing thin. Makes you seem more than a bit pompus.

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