Tiny survey/research question if anyone feels like helping

POSTED BY: PhoenixRose
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 01:37
VIEWED: 5694
PAGE 1 of 1

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:41 AM

Hey everyone, I'm writing a paper, and I'd like to test one of my opinions a little before I build on it, so I have a question for anyone who cares to answer.

What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

(No snark, please. Any response of "liberal/conservative/specific person" won't really help me.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

PHOENIXSHIP

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:47 AM

burden

As in the burden that everyone bears when one is mentally ill... the patient, the family and society.

Sorry, I'm a little jaded. I work with the public, and it seems like a lot of them are at least borderline mentally ill. Maybe I'm not entirely well either!!!

Good luck with your project.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Sorry, I'm a little jaded

I've worked with the public as well, jadedness is to be expected. Thanks for the response :)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:15 PM

I was going to say "everyone," not as a snark but as something I genuinely believe, but then I saw the request at the bottom of your post and realized that might not be helpful.

So... unique?

I'm one of those people who think that it's the fault of society that some people can't function in it, not the people themselves, and that different ways of thinking and different definitions of normal are a good thing.

I can understand medicating and therapy but as someone who's had bad experiences with medication and therapy, I prefer to try to deal with things on my own. I don't want to give up my uniqueness and become someone else, even if that someone else was a happier and more functional person.

NIKI2

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:27 PM

Caveat: Please come up with your own immediate response to Rose's question and hang onto it before reading the following.

I'm not a fair representation of the "common man" either, given as you know I'm bipolar. So my response would be the same as Byte's, for a different reason. Over years of dealing with a mental illness and with several forums for the mentally ill, I've come to some conclusions of my own.

One is that the term is a pejorative for most people unfamiliar with actual mental illness. They have no actual concept of what it means, and it's become a derrogatory term overused to mean too many things.

Another is that the "science" is more an art, when it comes to diagnosis, so today there are people who are termed "mentally ill" who may possess one or more qualities of a particular mental illness, but who are not actually mentally ill.

On the other hand, and this is why my answer is what it is, I think we've gone too FAR in diagnosing mental illness, to the point where, if we continue on this path, I think "science" will eventually find enough diagnoses that EVERYONE will fit one category or another of "mental illness", which is pathetic to me because there is a vast difference between being somewhat compulsive and actually suffering from OCD.

I hope, having written this, that neither my response nor Byte's will color others' immediate reactions to the term, because I think I know where you're going. Come to think of it, as such, I think I'll add a caveat at the beginning. Thanx for asking, Rose, this should be interesting.

p.s. Byte; I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:29 PM

crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 26, 2011 5:54 PM

"What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me."

What one is labeled with when they can't grasp the entirety (the depth and breadth) of your thoughts.

Or crazy.

Crazy works.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, September 26, 2011 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

Sorry, but could you expand on that a bit? It's a rather non-specific word. Just continue the word-associating a step more, if you would. What does 'crazy' mean to you?

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

GEEZER

Monday, September 26, 2011 6:33 PM

"Trouble"

This does not mean that I think that a mentally ill person will be trouble for me, particularly, but that the result of their illness may well be trouble for someone, or themselves. Guess I'm just paraphrasing a previous answer, "burden".

Of course, when I think of mental illness I tend to remember my cousins back in the 50s, who had a teenage daughter with a mental age of about three, and the things they were put through.

I realize that there are people who live with and function successfully with, mental illness as well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

WULFENSTAR

Monday, September 26, 2011 6:48 PM

The "craziest" people were/are usually the people that change the world for the better.

World revolves around the sun? - crazy.

Evolution? - crazy

American revolution, on the grounds that men have inalienable rights? - crazy

Land on the moon? - crazy

Climb Mt Everest? - crazy

Beat Germany/Japanese war machine? - crazy

Sail around the world? - crazy

FLY around the world? - crazy

Yeah, pretty much anyone who has ever done anything worth doing, and in the process pushed us all further than we ever thought possible...

was called crazy by some low, short-sighted, ignorant, assclown.

Mental-illness? Sometimes its a just handle... other times, its a way of boxing in those better than the name-givers.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

M52NICKERSON

Monday, September 26, 2011 7:26 PM

A person who's view and or understanding of the world does not allow them to function in society.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Monday, September 26, 2011 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

Sorry, but could you expand on that a bit? It's a rather non-specific word. Just continue the word-associating a step more, if you would. What does 'crazy' mean to you?

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Nuts, whacko, looney-toones, woo-woo, cuckoo for cocopuffs.

Sorry, that's all word association gets me.( EDIT-- that was a first, word- association response. My total opinion on the subject is much more sophisticated, if I stop to think about it.)

Seeking a better definition? it has something to do with not perceiving the world in a realistic fashion, on a level other than political. Not sure whether or not it involves taking action based on that perception.

Something on the order of believing that cars driving down the street are not cars, but some kind of living, breathing murderous cousins of fire-breathing dragons, alive, aware, self-willed, intelligent living things rather than mechanical devices controlled by a human intelligence within.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 26, 2011 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Hey everyone, I'm writing a paper, and I'd like to test one of my opinions a little before I build on it, so I have a question for anyone who cares to answer.

What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

(No snark, please. Any response of "liberal/conservative/specific person" won't really help me.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

PR,

Off the top of my head "inability to cope with dominant social structure or inability to conform to social norms by choice when required to do so."

Sure, many may choose not to conform, but they are able to if a situation necessitates it. For instance, if you go around flapping your arms and screeching like a fruit bat you are not mentally ill, but if a car hits a motorcyclist in front of you and you are actually unable to stop being a fruit bat and come down to earth to try to be of some help, or at least out of the way, then you are mentally ill.

I think most of these problems are dietary, some psychological, and very few of them may have a genetic origin, but that would be my general definition.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 26, 2011 10:12 PM

Quote:
Something on the order of believing that cars driving down the street are not cars, but some kind of living, breathing murderous cousins of fire-breathing dragons, alive, aware, self-willed, intelligent living things rather than mechanical devices controlled by a human intelligence within.

It's surprisingly hard to hunt them. :(

SIGNYM

Monday, September 26, 2011 10:20 PM

Schizophrenia Of all the mental illnesses that I know of, this is so dramatic that it pops up first, before anything else.

KPO

Monday, September 26, 2011 10:49 PM

Same as Siggy.

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Monday, September 26, 2011 11:19 PM

I PM'd. but if you don't get the email, same as Siggy.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:29 AM

Hello,

A man, sitting on a bed, alone in a small room, looking sad.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:52 AM

Emotional wreckage. Unprocessed grief.

Lady Cavalier said, without being coached: emotional violence. (Yeah, we're really good at Charades.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:00 AM

Mental illness = jews, cops, politicians, journalists, teachers.

My report on "Cops As Psychopaths" is very popular:
http://dragonaters.blogspot.com/2011/09/police-officer-as-psychopath.h
tml

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:18 AM

Again my response probably isn't the norm since I work in this field and have a mental illness myself, and not an interesting or creative one either, no dragons on the road for me, :( I'd rather have any other one than the one I have. But anyways, when I hear those words I think of what I have, because its so unpleasant and has no redeeming qualities, no one with my disorder is ever what I'd consider touched, especially in the form I have it. I'd much rather have something else. The term is kind of depressing really. But also the term peaks my interest when I hear it, once I get passed my own experiences. Because I love working in this field andI'm good at it and I feel like I make a positive difference every day for the people I work with/assist/give resources to. So it evokes both an unpleasant feeling about my own brain's situation and also a good feeling since I enjoy working in the mental health field.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

LILI

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:26 AM

Hmm... Medication, I guess.

Facts are stubborn things.

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:37 AM

Okay, this was good. (well, mostly.) Thanks, guys, I think I can safely put my postulation down on paper without it seeming baseless. Paper's not due for a week, though, if anyone else wants to chip in.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:58 AM

Did we come up with the answers you sought? Did we come up with the answers you expected?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

THEHAPPYTRADER

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:09 AM

To insure my impartialness i'm responding before reading any replies so apologies if I'm repeating someone.

Nonadaptive if that is a word

I believe everyone has their own unique quirks and ways of Doug things but would not consider one of those traits to be a mental disorder unless it impedes their ability to live a healthy life. If you don't use ilness and disorder interchangeably I have another answer.

I believe a mental illness is a disorder (as defined above) that can be somehow physically observed in the brain itself. In other words, there must be more than just behavioral evidence.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

Bunk, Fraud, Misdiagnosis.

To expound on that, we've expanded to official diagnosis of "mental illness" to the point were it encompasses a substantial amount of ordinary behavior which by any reasonable standard would fall within the bounds of "normal", or even weird-but-functional, and thus done a tremendous disservice to those which critical disabilities which prevent normal functioning by way of trivialising that definition and demeaning it.

So when I hear the term my immediate visceral reaction is more or less "bullshit!" followed by a demand for evidence to support that diagnosis - which in my experience with specific realms of it, usually amounts to "Does not obey." - which by THAT standard, clearly makes me quite, quite insane...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 9:48 AM

" crazy "

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:30 PM

You know what I find interesting? That most of those who responded have a decent grasp of mental illness as not just "crazy", but something real, and more than that, most of them recognize it's a difficulty for the person who has it, not that they're "bad".

Quote:
I believe everyone has their own unique quirks and ways of Doug things but would not consider one of those traits to be a mental disorder unless it impedes their ability to live a healthy life. If you don't use ilness and disorder interchangeably I have another answer.

I believe a mental illness is a disorder (as defined above) that can be somehow physically observed in the brain itself. In other words, there must be more than just behavioral evidence.

Really good, Happy.

Nick:

Quote:
A person who's view and or understanding of the world does not allow them to function in society.

Pretty damned close. I'd caveat that to say "SOMETIMES does not", because it's usually not an "always" thing, but you got the central point: "function". Mental illness is only diagnosable as such, according to the DSM-IV, if it interferes with functioning.

And DT,

Quote:
"inability to cope with dominant social structure or inability to conform to social norms by choice when required to do so."

Also excellent.

Also good, NewOld:

Quote:
it has something to do with not perceiving the world in a realistic fashion.

I'm impressed at the lack of ignorance people here show. Of course, most ARE pretty knowledgeable about many things, but we in the mentally-ill community are so accustomed to the long-standing stigma and ignorance about mental illness that I guess I expected to see more of it. Maybe I'm getting behind the times, and wouldn't that be lovely!

And Wulf, you rocked me back on my heels with

Quote:
pretty much anyone who has ever done anything worth doing, and in the process pushed us all further than we ever thought possible...

was called crazy by some low, short-sighted, ignorant, assclown.

Mental-illness? Sometimes its a just handle... other times, its a way of boxing in those better than the name-givers.

I'd never in my wildest dreams have believed YOU'd say something like that. It's quite true, in its way, and there's a highly-respected author by the mental-health community who wrote a book about that very thing, called "Touched by Fire". She postulates that we are the "aberrant gene" in the gene pool who will try something "normal" people wouldn't, which leads to forward progress, and are thus an important part of society. It's an excellent and well-written book; Kay Jamison was the first person accredited in the field of psychiatry to "out" herself as mentally ill, and her own story (her first book) is really illuminating.

I also liked

Quote:
What one is labeled with when they can't grasp the entirety (the depth and breadth) of your thoughts.

If you mean "THEIR" thoughts...the sentence is a bit confusing, but I'm guessing that's what you mean, given MOST of us can't grasp others' thoughts. ;o)

All in all, I'm impressed! And I thank you; the decades of stigma and ignorance have done so much damage to so many, I'd LOVE to believe times are changing!

Geezer, just to say, "mental illness" isn't the same as "mental retardation", which is what you seem to be describing.

And Sig, while Schiz is the most dramatic and probably best known mental illness, in my opinion the far-less-recognized Borderline is the most awful one. Schizophrenia can be treated with meds, and i know quite a few who lead functional lives, but Borderline can only be "cured" with therapy (tho' meds can be used to mitigate it somewhat), and having known a few, my heart goes out to them deeply.

Why do PN and Raptor's respons

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Why do PN and Raptor's responses not surprise me in the least?

Still ignoring my posts, huh? We see how well that's working out for ya.

I participated in the 'tiny' survey, by giving the first word that came to mind upon reading the question. I didn't elaborate, just have an honest, to the point reply to the topic.

Don't really know what point you're trying to make, w/ your irrelevant and petty snark. Did I critique anyone else's comment ? What makes you feel the need to add your 2 cents to MY reply ?

Got a question ? Ask. If not, how about just let the one doing the survey worry about what responses were given.

Thanks.

*edit * - I see that newoldbrowncoat gave the same response as I did, earlier in the thread, though I didn't see it. Odd how you commented on MY reply, but not NOB's.

Yep, just keep on ignoring me, Niki. You're so good at it!

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:41 PM

P.S. I found it interesting, Rose, that you put this up when you did. I've had it okay for a long time now, and just a couple of days ago realized I'm going into a depressive episode. So many of the things people offered fit right now...not in anything regarding my behavior in the outside world (mostly because I avoid it!), but in my thinking; how everything seems to hopeless and black, my total lack of motivation (haven't even gotten the huskies anywhere but the dog park for three days), physical sensations, and last night sitting there starting to cry for no reason whatsoever. Bah. I hate being reminded that it's still here, or, if anyone remembers the line, that "it's comin' around on the gittar again".

Oh, how I miss hypomania!!!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
So tell us, Rose; we gave you our answers, what's it about? I'm dying to know

I'm writing a paper about health care coverage as it applies to mental illness. Medication is covered, but adequate office visits for proper diagnosis through observation are not, for example. Part of my hypothesis is that the stigma attached to mental illness, arising in part from a majority view that it is severe and always permanent, gives the insurance companies an excuse to not cover certain treatments. After all, if "mentally ill" means that someone will be locked up and a ward of the state, why should there be much coverage? Conversely, if the condition is not severe, they're "all in your head" and the cognitive treatments aren't covered.
I asked here and a couple other sites I'm a member of, and I definitely got more answers having to do with the severe/dangerous disorders and institutions/asylums than with things like social anxiety or low-grade depression, which more people suffer.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:26 PM

Quote:
Medication is covered, but adequate office visits for proper diagnosis through observation are not

Boy oh boy oh BOY, am I with you on that one!

There was a study where X number of p-docs saw X number of patients for half an hour. They diagnosed most of them depressive, few of them bipolar. Then they rotated everyone and the p-docs saw other patients for an hour and a half. They diagnosed FAR more of them bipolar. Given bipolars generally only seek help when in the depressive state (as I did), and the difficulty of correctly diagnosing any mental illness, it was another example of how our medical system doesn't work, not giving p-docs enough time to better diagnose conditions. Since there's not yet any scientific test for mental illnesses WIDELY AVAILABLE (there ARE tests now, but expensive and still only in trials), it's so vital that people get a chance at as correct a dx as possible. And given I've LONG been a strong proponent of therapy (in conjunction with meds, if necessary, and with self-education, ABSOLUTELY!), I'm really with you on that one, fer shore!

Good luck!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:30 PM

"Mental Illness", (as its pimped today) kind of makes me sick.

Some days you might feel sad. - It doesn't mean you are "depressed".

Some days you might be angry. - It doesn't mean you are on the verge of a "violent episode".

Some days you might not be paying attention. - It doesn't mean you have "ADD".

Some days you may have drank too much coffee. - It doesn't mean you have "restless leg syndrome".

In my years on the earth I've learned a bunch of different things. One of them being this:

There is no pill (or pills) that will make your life perfect, or you perfectly happy. And even if there was such a magical thing, would you really want to take it?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Since there's not yet any scientific test for mental illnesses WIDELY AVAILABLE (there ARE tests now, but expensive and still only in trials), it's so vital that people get a chance at as correct a dx as possible.

I concur. Though I also think that a basic test on neurotransmitter levels (tests which are not expensive nor in trials) should be run before anything is prescribed. After all, if the problem lies with epinephrine levels, you don't want to be messing with serotonin now do you? Symptoms might look similar coming from different levels being off.
But that's a different paper for another day.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

NIKI2

Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:38 PM

Well said, Wulf. The DSM-IV, which is referred to as the "psychiatrists bible" is very clear about it, but that doesn't seem to translate to most people. They are very strict that there is no diagnosis unless whatever it is "causes serious impediment to functioning", but people don't seem to get that--even many p-docs!

Rose, oh, boy, again, you got it! Then, too, I was dx'd long ago and put on medication for thyroid problems, but it wasn't until I was properly dx'd bipolar that I learned hypo- or hyper-thyroid conditions virtually always go hand in hand with bipolarity! So much is missed on both sides of diagnosis.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 1:13 AM

Frem and Wulf, I totally agree that over labeling is a problem, especially with kids. The key is that the differences are impacting daily functioning, but a lot of clinicians seem to over look that as Niki said. I don't believe in saying someone has a disorder unless they actually have it. Don't get me started on that one. Some people may have slight tendencies towards something, but unless it is pervasive it shouldn't be diagnosed and labeled.

Niki, I'm having a hard time tonight too, not the same you are, but still, luh suh.

Phoenix a chara, I agree that more definitive tests would be really helpful and it bothers me that more pdocs don't take that stuff seriously. The key is to figure out what exactly is lacking or overabundant, and work on getting those balances right and stable and to be in a way where the person can do as well as possible.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 3:03 AM

Ah yes, the old "checklist diagnosis" I hate so much, often complicated by docs taking parents/teachers and so on at their word despite them offering biased or incorrect information for their own reasons, on top of a certain "push" by Big Pharma to get their products in use - which to my mind is downright negligence if not malpractice.

It takes a minimum of ninety minutes in a controlled environment to properly diagnose a behavioral disorder, and anything less is just a halfass guess - but when medical coverage doesn't extend to that, it just makes this all the worse.

Plenty of source documentation for that kinda thing is available if you know where to look.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 3:06 AM

Yeah, I think that for a first time diagnosis they should see the person a few times before deciding on a definitive one, especially with kids. But people don't view things my way.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

THEHAPPYTRADER

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:17 AM

Very interesting. Another interesting aspect to that is misdiagnosis. I've encountered more than a few Asperger cases where I do not believe the child really has Aspergers, but they need the diagnosis for insurance to provide coverage for behavioral therapy. I didn't like the dishonesty, but I was told our behavioral therapy program helps the children cope with their issues and the Autism or Asperger diagnosis is just necessary for some families to get the funding.

I don't want to hijack the thread so I'll keep this short, but because I've learned of more and more of these less than ethical practices in the company I worked for (and didn't exactly hide my disapproval) I am no longer working for said company. I had already decided I wanted to leave but was hoping to give them the finger and leave once I found another job. Oh well... perhaps this will be a blessing in disguise.

But anyway, back to your topic, I wonder how rampant fraud of that nature is when it comes to health care coverage. It's not necessarily evil because it was meant to help these children, but I am still uncomfortable with that manner of dishonesty. I worry that kind of dishonesty is part of what's wrong with many a government funded program.

1KIKI

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:26 AM

"... I wonder how rampant fraud of that nature is when it comes to health care coverage ..."

Well - it depends on which country you're in. If you're in the US where coverage is spotty even if available at all, and where constitutional issues keep the mentally ill wandering the streets, some might find any dodge used to get therapy for someone who needs it is a good thing.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:51 AM

Aw, Happy, we haven't seen you in a while. I feel like we should have been here for you, sounds like you've been through a rough time.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 5:09 AM

Email link send via PM, Happy - the reason I didn't wanna initially discuss the matter with you discretely was due to concern about causing the exact situation you seem to have found yourself in.

Anyhow, if you'd like to talk about it, there it is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 6:46 AM

Oh Happy, I'm sorry things didn't work out with that, it sounds like you chose based on your principles though and I think that you'll find something else soon. Sounds like you've run into the over diagnosis problem too.

Hey Frem, could you send me an email about what's up with Jeni? You said you knew the person who was helping look after her a while back, I want to know if she's at a good establishment, if she's loved and looked after well etc. I wish I'd known you when I was going through my feral child phase. I know that isn't really relevent to this thread, but the last time I asked you didn't answer me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

GEEZER

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Geezer, just to say, "mental illness" isn't the same as "mental retardation", which is what you seem to be describing.

Rationally, I know that. Emotionally, when I hear "Mental Illness" that's the first thing that pops into my mind.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 4:08 PM

Happy, except for the timing, i.e., the current economy, I'd say "blessing in disguise". May you find another job soon, and one you feel good about.

When you say "misdiagnosis", I think of all the kids misdiagnosed (as has been mentioned), and us bipolars. It was so common for bipolars to be misdiagnosed depressive that they gave it its own category! If we're misdiagnosed depressive and put ONLY on anti-depressants, they can cause us to go manic...it happened to many, many people (still does no doubt) back when I was diagnosed (and it happened to me). It's caused hospitalizations and suicides, and is damned unpleasant, lemme tell 'ya! Luckily I'm bipolar II, so can only go "hypo"manic (less than); I hate to think where I'd be if I were Bipolar I!!

Misdiagnosis is a serious problems in so MANY ways; the above, "fraud" as you mentioned (tho' yes, I'm on the fence whether that's the kind of "fraud" that's bad or not), kids being misdiagnosed and put on wrong or too many meds, things like the study I mentioned above; it's truly still an "art" rather than a "science", unfortunately. And as a society, we are way too heavily invested in "take a pill", labels, and finding "mental illness" where some good therapy would fix the problem.

I doubt I'll live long enough to see it dealt with better, but hopefully in the generations to come after me...

Riona, you have my sympathy AND my empathy, "luh suh" is damned right! Hope you feel better soonest!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
finding "mental illness" where some good therapy would fix the problem

Therapy can absolutely fix many problems, but that doesn't mean (to me) that they aren't mental illness. I compare some things to the psychological equivalent of a head cold; unpleasant and at times lasting longer than you would like, but nothing to be too worried about. Other things might be more like a chest cold, much more unpleasant and with the possibility of becoming something more severe if not seen to, but not a major threat if you can get some rest and some mild treatment. The comparisons could go on and on, but my main thesis for this paper is that we recognize various degrees of physical malady and offer various treatments that are nearly all covered by insurance, so why is mental illness different? Well, because it's been separated from the other practices of medicine, is why. I don't think it should be. I think that the standards for diagnosis, careful consideration of treatment, and insurance coverage that applies to everything else in medicine should apply to mental health care as well. I think the science is closer than you might think, but it's not going to be used if they can skate by without it.
Not that a paper for English class is going to change anything, but something along these lines is going to be my platform pretty much all through school. Eventually, I might make some waves.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, September 29, 2011 6:05 AM

Hey Geezer and Niki. What a lot of people don't realize, unless they're exposed to it, is that there is a certain amount of overlap between mental health differences and developmental differences. So Geezer's cousin very well may have had both. Also it is possible that Geezer's cousin has schizophrenia in the variety that presents some symptomatology that appears as developmental difference, I've heard of a few situations that the touchedness looks like that when it isn't. Anyways Geezer, how is your cousin (I guess she'd be your second cousin?) I hope she is safe and happy and fullfilled in life.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

1KIKI

Thursday, September 29, 2011 7:08 AM

"... why is mental illness different? Well, because it's been separated from the other practices of medicine, is why."

I think because as little as we know of what really goes on in the body (why do people get heart failure?) we know even less of what goes on the the brain - or the mind.

Sometimes talk therapy helps. But then sometimes people do talk therapy on and on and on for years ... and it doesn't work. They still purge and starve. You think maybe it's biological. Then somebody provides an interaction, and all of the sudden it clicks like it was so easy. Of course purging and starving is a silly thing to do. So it wasn't biological, it was mere thoughts. It was a problem of the mind.

Or then you have someone suffering from depression. Been through everything, talk therapy, medications, electro-convulsive therapy. Nothing helps. No matter how they address their thoughts, those thoughts are still there. Then someone notices their calcium is high, they get a hot parathyroid nodule removed (note - not thyroid, the thyroid is a different gland), their calcium comes down and - they're perfectly fine. Calm, focused, motivated. It's clear it was a physical problem. All those mental difficulties were mere side effects of a brain glitching under high calcium.

People who hallucinate - perhaps they're 'crazy'. Nobody else sees or hears those things that aren't there. Or --- maybe they're taking a dopamine agonist, or suffer from sleep disorders and dream with their eyes open, or have temporal/ occipital lobe epilepsy, or any number of unrelated-to-'crazy' issues. But let's say you could draw a hard and fast rule - people who hallucinate are crazy.

What about people who have crazy ideas? Who think that the world is run by giant bugs ... not that they claim to have ever seen or heard or felt or smelled or tasted those bugs, but they ***KNOW*** those bugs are there. Running the world behind the scenes. And nothing will shake that belief. Are they crazy?

What about if it's a socially acceptable 'crazy'? God is watching everything I do and reading my thoughts every instant of every day. Or, everything Rush Limbaugh says is true, no matter how self-contradictory or at odds with the real world. Are they 'crazy'?

I have my own personal definition of crazy, but it may not be yours.

What is 'crazy'? Where does it come from? Should we fix it ? How do we fix it? It seems still very much up in the air.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
it was mere thoughts.

I have a problem with this. There's no such thing as "mere" thoughts. What someone thinks and does can impact their nervous system or their glands, and thoughts can self-perpetuate. Chemistry getting skewed can impact thoughts and the way someone feels. The body effects the mind, and the mind effects the body, they are not separate. There have been many studies on this, but thoughts are still seen as separate from the body, a problem with no "real" treatment because the problem isn't "real" beyond someone just thinking about it.
The same thoughts don't do the same thing to every system, just as the same medications don't do the same thing to every system. The human body is awash in complex chemistry all the time. You are correct that we don't understand it fully, but more is understood than I think a lot of people realize. My ultimate goal is to research more neurochemistry, because only a few neurotransmitters have really been studied in-depth, and I'm sure "lesser" ones make a difference for the "major" ones most people are familiar with.

My definition of crazy is that it's kind of an empty and meaningless word. It's been used to mean too many things to have any real meaning. Generally, though, it's used to refer to something intense or extreme. That's not necessarily what I'm talking about, here. There are too many disorders and illnesses for even most of them to be put under the heading of "crazy."

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:33 PM

Quote:
or suffer from sleep disorders and dream with their eyes open

I do that one. Though I also get the regular kind of hallucinations too. I can't really recommend it.

NIKI2

Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:09 PM

Rose, that's what I meant by saying all that might be needed in some cases where people are diagnosed is some therapy...like aspirin for a head cold, to carry on your corollary, and when it comes to some traumas, like a head cold they eventually pass, but aspirin can help at the time.

As to why it's not treated like other illnesses, I was told, and read once, that psychiatry is considered the bottom rung of the medical profession, and regular doctors only get a tiny amount of training in it--all geared toward meds (well, so is the psychiatric training!)--not that I would want a GP treating mental illness! But given the apparent lack of emphasis by the medical community, I think that might be one contributing factor--along with the more obvious ones of course!

Kiki, people who talk and talk and get nowhere have one of three problems, in my estimation. Either they have a more severe mental illness, or a bad p-doc, or they're not doing the work. I didn't for a long time when I first had therapy...later after dx when I went back to it, I realized I NEEDED to talk and talk because a) I wasn't ready to confront the real issues, and b) I needed to TRUST the therapist. Both of those took a long time, but when I went back, I worked my ass of and it was immensely helpful. In fact it changed my life. All the jokes about therapy not working contribute to people not trying it, and/or not doing the real WORK...which is damned hard and scary, so it's not surprising many don't want to.

And yes, I've known people with mental illness for whom dietary and other things and had great results. And some who've tried everything, including diet and ECT (don't get me started on ECT!), and have never improved. When it comes to the more extreme mental illnesses like schiz and bipolar I, diet and such usually don't do much--tho' they can help even then for some people.

You mentioned religion. I've known two "Gods" and one "Jesus"--oh, and an "angel"--and in my opinion it's the brain's way of coping with something it can't understand...and in all cases happened to people who are religious to begin with. In all cases, they firmly believed they had all the answers, and could cure everyone if we'd just follow them. It's called "grandiosity" in some cases by some p-docs, texts and people, but to me grandiosity is a component of feeling helpless, not knowing what's happening or why, and the brain giving some explanation...kind of like religion in the first place. ;o)

It's all too complex to get a REAL grasp on, for me; everyone is so individual that everything works differently for different persons...including meds. I'm a firm believer in the subconscious, in messages we got as children which we internalized and which can run our whole lives if we let them. EMDR was a life-changer for me; meds helped, but EMDR was like that light going on--to see things that happened to me, were said to me or I overheard as a child and internalized, as an adult and in most cases realized they were about the other person and had nothing to do with me, was amazing.

I guess I believe in the subconscious because I've seen and heard so many things from others, and because my dreams are so transparent Jim laughs when I tell them to him, they're so obviously about a current issue I'm grappling with, put in "stories". Jim, on the other hand, used to say he never dreamed...and being someone who was very closed off from his feelings, I'm not surprised. After meds (which he was only on briefly but which began the transition), therapy and his own self-education, he learned a lot about himself, his family dynamic and more. Now he dreams...his aren't transparent like mine, but again, he's still somewhat closed off from his feelings even now.

I think the mind is fascinating and can never learn enough about it. I've got so

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:45 PM

Kiki, "crazy" is relative and because it is so vague it doesn't mean anything to me. I think what you're asking and annalyzing is how something becomes "crazy" as opposed to just being different. Every society has certain things that are common. if a belief is common among people then someone with that belief isn't considered weird or odd. But if a person has a belief that doesn't match with those around them then that is considered different, and then in the more extreme that is considered to be brain differences at work. It can very culturally what is considered acceptable to believe and what isn't. In a culture where everyone believes in the gods for instance it would be weird or uncommon for someone to go around spouting about how there aren't any gods at all, they might be considered crazy for thinking something that seems so outrageous. You seem to think its crazy or weird when people believe in higher beings, whereas other cultures would think you were crazy for not believing in them. Those feelins about things like that vary from what we're talking about here somewhat, but you brought it up.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

STORYMARK

Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:53 PM

It's probably a bit late to respond, but anyway:

My first reaction is to think of my former Step-Father, who was crazy and abusive (not to me) in many ways. Most of this can be attributed to some pretty horrific experiences in Viet Nam, but I don't rule out that he may have had some mental issues prior to his service, which were brought out and/or amplified by his experiences.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

1KIKI

Friday, September 30, 2011 1:48 AM

Well, I don't have much to say, except that I appreciate reading the posts of all the people who responded to my musing with their musing.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, September 30, 2011 8:26 AM

Aye, we do have some interesting and informative discussions in between the partisan ping pong matches, although they can be fun to watch sometimes too.

Makes one ponder though, at what point does such partisanship cross the line into mental illness, I wonder ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

RIONAEIRE

Monday, October 3, 2011 6:34 AM

Like anything else it all depends on functionality and how it affects one's daily life, outwardly and inwardly. There are plenty of neurotypical rabid political junkies out there. If being super partisan is the only problem then one could assume that there isn't a mental illness issue. But again I guess the question I'd ask is how this rabid partisanship affects the person's life inwardly and outwardly. And if there's a mental illness present then other aspects of the person's life would be affected, not just their political ideology.

Or was that question just you teasing?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 8:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Hey everyone, I'm writing a paper, and I'd like to test one of my opinions a little before I build on it, so I have a question for anyone who cares to answer.

What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

(No snark, please. Any response of "liberal/conservative/specific person" won't really help me.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Something we all or most of us suffer from throughout our lives at one time or another, to a degree more or less.

An inexact science, something hard to quantify.

A condition of emotional or cognitive impairment that results in someone feeling unable to cope with everyday life and continues on for a period of time (weeks?).

A distortion in perception of reality?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 8:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Ah yes, the old "checklist diagnosis" I hate so much, often complicated by docs taking parents/teachers and so on at their word despite them offering biased or incorrect information for their own reasons, on top of a certain "push" by Big Pharma to get their products in use - which to my mind is downright negligence if not malpractice.

It takes a minimum of ninety minutes in a controlled environment to properly diagnose a behavioral disorder, and anything less is just a halfass guess - but when medical coverage doesn't extend to that, it just makes this all the worse.

Plenty of source documentation for that kinda thing is available if you know where to look.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Sometimes when I look at those checklists, mostly American in nature, I wonder if Americans really are a different species.

Years ago I worked with a practitioner who was madly into 'learned optimism'. I read Seligman and did his checklists and it said I needed to see a psych IMMEDIATELY urgently. Funny thing was that I was feeling in quite a buoyant mood, god help me if I'd done it at my lowest. I figured that it was a cultural thing. My family are Irish descent - 'never expect too much you'll just be disappointed' kind of philosophy, but no more prone to depression than anyone else, probably less because they don't expect too much and are therefore easily delighted when things go well.

Needless to say, I gave the book away.

NIKI2

Monday, October 3, 2011 1:29 PM

Magons, you have a point about culture. Bear in mind the differences between living in Australia and living in America. Just as (to use the comparison again) the Japanese work themselves to death, as opposed to Europeans having so much more time off than we do in the States. Most of our lives here aren't healthy, which means they're not healthy mentaly as well as physically. So yes, there no doubt are differences. In some cultures, some mental illnesses are seen as witch doctors or seers or whatever.

Bear in mind, once again, that the DSM-IV (and all the DSM's before it and no doubt after it) stress that it's NOT mental illness if you can function in your life. Sure, "function" is a loose term, and there are certainly those among us who are mentally ill but "function" perfectly (at least for a time), and some who live their entire lives mentally ill and never know it (Bipolar IIs as an example). However, those who "function" well yet are mentally ill won't ever seek treatment, nor will many of those who never know it--it gets passed off, as it was for me, as just "overdramtic", or "eccentric", as it mostly was in the past. That doesn't mean it's not mental illness.

So "functioning" in one's life depends to an extent on the society within which one must function...naturally that makes it different for different cultures. The checklist you mentioned is bullshit, in my opinion; it takes far more than a checklist to determine such things. On the other hand, I did a checklist of bipolarity when I was only dx'd unipolar (depressive), and it was frighteningly right on; once properly dx'd, my life changed. I HAD been dysfunctional my whole life, I just assumed I was "screwed up" or "bad". Knowing otherwise, and knowing I wasn't alone, got me to do many things which have made my life better than I ever could have dreamed. I'm a bear about self-education for those who have been dx'd, it's one of the main things that helped me.

So yes, it's obviously different by culture, but when one's life is bad enough to seek help, one needs help, perhaps in very short term, perhaps as far as meds and a lifelong battle. When you look at the list of people who've been dx'd (some posthumasly), their lives leave little doubt. Many of them are very famous throughout history, some were hospitalized (even back as far as a hundred years) because their actions were self-destructive, and/or they recognized a problem themselves. Many ended in suicide, which I think you might agree means they needed help.

There are so many intricacies to mental illness, and I've learned so much about it, I could go on all day. But of course I won't; that's for another venue. I can only speak to my own life, and if I'd been dx'd before I was 48, my life would have been vastly different. For one thing, I'd NEVER have gone into the corporate world, which is one of he worst places for the mentally ill--especially bipolars!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

1KIKI

Monday, October 3, 2011 2:42 PM

"If being super partisan is the only problem then one could assume that there isn't a mental illness issue."

Well, what if being super-partisan leads you to deny whole chunks of reality and believe in whole chunks of fables? I know I have referenced this a few times already, but it was a real eye-opener to me which outlines a basic mental glitch in processing reality in the super-partisan - How facts backfire ( http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_
backfire/).

Saying that people are sane except for super-partisanship, seems to me a bit like saying well, you're basically healthy except for that metabolic cystic fibrosis glitch.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

NIKI2

Monday, October 3, 2011 3:04 PM

Well said, Kiki. That's something that's come to bother me, too, as evidenced by my "scientists" thread and what Sig had to say about it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, October 3, 2011 5:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Like anything else it all depends on functionality and how it affects one's daily life, outwardly and inwardly. There are plenty of neurotypical rabid political junkies out there. If being super partisan is the only problem then one could assume that there isn't a mental illness issue. But again I guess the question I'd ask is how this rabid partisanship affects the person's life inwardly and outwardly. And if there's a mental illness present then other aspects of the person's life would be affected, not just their political ideology.

Or was that question just you teasing?

No, not teasing, I am actually beginning to honestly wonder where the breakpoint is.

Now, I know that I am heavily biased in that I consider most modern authoritarianism a form of mental illness itself - but even so I mean when it really does affect someones daily ability to function, such as violent outbursts if not attempts at physical assault versus those who challenge their beliefs...

Could it not then, be considered a mental illness, even though it is philosophical in nature rather than by other cause ?

Or perhaps, is it simply a manifestation of something deeply, deeply wrong with them to begin with ?

Questions like these have been preying on my mind lately, is all.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, October 3, 2011 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Could it not then, be considered a mental illness, even though it is philosophical in nature rather than by other cause ?

There have been some preliminary studies that certain political and philosophical stances show greater activity and size in certain parts of the brain.
There needs to be more research for certain things, but things like compassion practice and contemplative meditation have been widely studied and shown to thicken the cortex and mitigate certain behaviors such as selfishness and impulsiveness. Fearful behavior has been linked to an enlarged amygdala, and some other diseases and problems have been linked to the same area of the brain. Like other things, fearful thoughts can self-perpetuate once the pathways are established in the nervous system, and it can be difficult (but never impossible) to establish new pathways through something like meditative practice or other cognitive focus techniques.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Magons, you have a point about culture. Bear in mind the differences between living in Australia and living in America. Just as (to use the comparison again) the Japanese work themselves to death, as opposed to Europeans having so much more time off than we do in the States. Most of our lives here aren't healthy, which means they're not healthy mentaly as well as physically. So yes, there no doubt are differences. In some cultures, some mental illnesses are seen as witch doctors or seers or whatever.

Bear in mind, once again, that the DSM-IV (and all the DSM's before it and no doubt after it) stress that it's NOT mental illness if you can function in your life. Sure, "function" is a loose term, and there are certainly those among us who are mentally ill but "function" perfectly (at least for a time), and some who live their entire lives mentally ill and never know it (Bipolar IIs as an example). However, those who "function" well yet are mentally ill won't ever seek treatment, nor will many of those who never know it--it gets passed off, as it was for me, as just "overdramtic", or "eccentric", as it mostly was in the past. That doesn't mean it's not mental illness.

So "functioning" in one's life depends to an extent on the society within which one must function...naturally that makes it different for different cultures. The checklist you mentioned is bullshit, in my opinion; it takes far more than a checklist to determine such things. On the other hand, I did a checklist of bipolarity when I was only dx'd unipolar (depressive), and it was frighteningly right on; once properly dx'd, my life changed. I HAD been dysfunctional my whole life, I just assumed I was "screwed up" or "bad". Knowing otherwise, and knowing I wasn't alone, got me to do many things which have made my life better than I ever could have dreamed. I'm a bear about self-education for those who have been dx'd, it's one of the main things that helped me.

To be fair to Seligman, the book isn't about mental health but optimism, although there are correlations between pessimism and mental illness, which was what the checklist I did picked up. I guess my question was culturally is it more the norm to expect people to be optimistic in the US than here? It seems to be an integral value, I see it in the cultural values of a lot of mainstream movies.

If you want something enough and try hard enough and have belief in self, you will achieve what you want in life.

This is not a value that I share.

I see this concept or value seeps into treatments for mental health, such as CBT and Seligman's work. It's kind of the ultimate egoism. Change your thoughts, challenge your negative thinking and you'll feel better. Ironically, it works, at least according to statistics.

Someone once said that when expectations meet reality and they don't match, trouble follows. I wonder if the source of much mental health - particularly the prevanlence of depression is kind of a feature of this in a culture where anything is considered possible so long as you have the will, and that if you are poor and fail it is your fault.

I don't include schizophenia and bi-polar and many other disorders in this.

I feel a bit torn about the idea of overdiagnosing disorders. On one hand there are things in the DSM that really shouldn't be there. There is a terrible trend of pathologising behaviours which just don't need to be pathologised. It has become clear to me in recent years that most of my family would be diagnosed with aspbergers but have functioned normally. I agree with Frem that checklists for these kinds of things really are not appropriate and as you say Niki - the questions should be about the degree that it impacts on your managing life.

O

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 9:21 PM

Having said that I hate checklists, I will now be wildly inconsistent and post one - features of psychopathy.

1. Considerable superficial charm and average or above average intelligence.

2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking

3. Absence of anxiety or other "neurotic" symptoms considerable poise, calmness, and verbal facility.

4. Unreliability, disregard for obligations no sense of responsibility, in matters of little and great import.

5.Untruthfulness and insincerity

7. Antisocial behavior which is inadequately motivated and poorly planned, seeming to stem from an inexplicable impulsiveness.

7.Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior

8.Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience

9. Pathological egocentricity. Total self-centeredness incapacity for real love and attachment.

10. General poverty ot deep and lasting emotions.

11. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.

12. Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness, and trust.

13. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.

14. No history of genuine suicide attempts.

15. An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated seX life.

16. Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way, unless it be one promoting self-defeat.

1KIKI

Monday, October 3, 2011 9:54 PM

I know you didn't post to me, but there were some things you posted and I wanted to respond.

The US view of the individual and the society is IMO a very sick one. There is this myth that ANYONE can succeed. And when we USED to have a frontier, where anyone who didn't like society's bargain could go and keep themselves at least alive for a while with minimal interaction with the larger society (trading for iron tools and utensils, seeds, dry goods like cloth etc was always a necessity) it was true to some extent. But we no longer have a frontier. The fact is that the economy (and hence the society) depends very much on a captive labor force - large numbers of people who have no choice but to work in and buy from the capitalist economy. And the economy is so structured that there is a large 'losing' class. It seems to me if you don't have an economy where EVERYONE will be able to succeed, then it's not true that ANYONE can succeed. Some will, but the many are destined to not. Simply b/c the economy doesn't have room for them.

But we keep the myth alive. Why is that? Well, for one thing, it gives the believers a sense of control, no matter how false. There is some comfort in thinking you are more than a powerless pawn of a larger system. And it works for TPTB. It is SO much better to have people blaming themselves and others like them for their lot than revolting in the streets for their share of the value they make. It is real mind control.

(I just want to point out that people with a vote DO have power - a power feared by the rich and powerful who do everything in their power to subvert, distract and undermine the voters.)

I remember maybe 15 - 20 years ago there was a lot of speculation that higher rates of depression in females might be biological. Then one psychiatrist looked at the ACTUAL life circumstances of the women he was treating for depression. Many were divorced, which meant that they were financially reduced. They were either working or working more. And they were trying to take care of the children and the household at the same time. Meanwhile, the men experienced increased finances and freedom from responsibility. The psychiatrist's conclusion - no WONDER the women were depressed and the men were not!

Depression due to circumstances accurately perceived as malign and long-term (if not unchangeable) might be the normal, healthy and sane response, even if not pleasant.

Having said that, sometime it's true that people think themselves into a box. They do this because of that, they do that because of that other thing - and so on down the line. And they can think of no way out b/c it's all linked together into one vast rationale for why things HAVE to be the way they are. In those cases CBT might work.

And then there are people who are truly biologically depressed. High calcium levels are notorious for that. Bipolar and major depressive disorders I'm thinking are another example.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

But we keep the myth alive. Why is that? Well, for one thing, it gives the believers a sense of control, no matter how false. There is some comfort in thinking you are more than a powerless pawn of a larger system. And it works for TPTB. It is SO much better to have people blaming themselves and others like them for their lot than revolting in the streets for their share of the value they make. It is real mind control.

I see that in the attitude that the poor are poor because they are lazy and/or stupid. Either way it is their fault. I was just reading that kind of mentality on the taxes thread with the bragging (as I saw it) about being debt free and having done it all off one's own back. It's there inherently between the lines (or maybe not even so much) that if you struggle in life, its your own fault and having everything you need, you wouldn't give a brass farthing to a one legged, one eyed ex vet crawling along your street.

It's the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality - maybe that is colloquial, but I hope you get what I mean.

we have it as well here, maybe just not as much, not yet. But its a growing philosophy. A friend of mine said it was 'wealth envy' to decry the fact that CEO's of failing companies are given multi million dollar golden handshakes.

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 3, 2011 10:34 PM

In acknowledgment of the shortcomings of checklists, I'll attempt to check-list myself honestly.

1. Depends 2. Depends 3. Depends 4. Depends 5. Depends 6. Depends 7a. Depends 7b. Depends
8. Depends 9. Depends 10. Depends 11. Depends 12. Depends 13. Depends 14. Depends 15. Depends
16. Depends

1KIKI

Monday, October 3, 2011 10:35 PM

Hey, thanks for replying.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 3, 2011 10:37 PM

1kiki: Interesting. We seem to be in agreement.

RIONAEIRE

Monday, October 3, 2011 10:53 PM

Kiki, you are quick to point out extreme and, in your opinion, possibly mental illness induced beliefs in others, but you forget, or fail to agknowledge, that you have some pretty extreme beliefs yourself. Extreme beliefs in themselves don't necessarily mean someone has a mental illness. Those beliefs need to be causing physical or emotional harm for oneself or others and be hampering daily functioning to be considered part of mental illness.

Which goes back to what Frem is pondering. Again I must say that you have some pretty extreme beliefs yourself so saying that the other people with extreme beliefs, if they lean towards violence, have mental illness isn't fair in itself. Its all a matter of degree and I know you know that, I think you're wondering where the tipping point is and I can only say it depends on the individual, the situation etc.

Magon's. I don't think you're on the fence about diagnosing, I think you have a sensible view on it. There's no point in labeling someone if they are a bit different but it isn't altering daily functioning, like your family having sometendencies that corrilate with Asperger's, they do fine in life without any assistance or treatment or anything, they have friends, they work, they are content, they do what they want to do, so why try and label something that doesn't need labeling? I agree totally. But of course on the other end if there is a significant enough difference in someone's brain and experience realted thereto then a diagnosis is good because it can help the situation to be addressed and worked to find the best treatments or techniques for managing and assisting with it and getting things going as well as possible for the person. I wouldn't call that on the fence, I'd say you have feelings on both sides of the issue that work together to balance it out and give you a wider picture.

Thanks for that list, clearly I'm not a psychopath. :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

Thanks for that list, clearly I'm not a psychopath. :)

That is exactly what a psychopath would say, btw.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
In acknowledgment of the shortcomings of checklists, I'll attempt to check-list myself honestly.

1. Depends 2. Depends 3. Depends 4. Depends 5. Depends 6. Depends 7a. Depends 7b. Depends
8. Depends 9. Depends 10. Depends 11. Depends 12. Depends 13. Depends 14. Depends 15. Depends
16. Depends

LOL

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 3, 2011 11:05 PM

1. Considerable superficial charm and average or above average intelligence.
TICK
2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
CROSS
3. Absence of anxiety or other "neurotic" symptoms considerable poise, calmness, and verbal facility.
BIG CROSS
4. Unreliability, disregard for obligations no sense of responsibility, in matters of little and great import.
CROSS
5.Untruthfulness and insincerity
CROSS

7. Antisocial behavior which is inadequately motivated and poorly planned, seeming to stem from an inexplicable impulsiveness.
CROSS

7.Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
CROSS

8.Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience
TICK/CROSS
9. Pathological egocentricity. Total self-centeredness incapacity for real love and attachment.
CROSS
10. General poverty ot deep and lasting emotions.
CROSS

11. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.
? HOW WOULD I KNOW ?
12. Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness, and trust.
CROSS

13. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.
TICK
14. No history of genuine suicide attempts.
TICK
15. An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated seX life.
CROSS
16. Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way, unless it be one promoting self-defeat.
TICK

1KIKI

Monday, October 3, 2011 11:29 PM

"Extreme beliefs in themselves don't necessarily mean someone has a mental illness."

Ahem. If you read my posts you'll notice that I acknowledge my views of insanity might be different from other people's views. But I don't think extreme beliefs alone are insanity. It's the x-ing off of huge chunks of reality in order to maintain those beliefs that I perceive to be 'crazy'. And - on the whole - if you look at our right-whingers, you'll find a severe dismissal of fact in favor of extreme belief.

Also, I am on the fence about socially acceptable delusions. Some delusions are not socially acceptable - like PN's constant blaming of everything on the Jew / Nazi / British Queen / Bilderberg / Mason conspiracy - and we clearly recognize it as disordered thinking (or a very good facsimile for google purposes).

But what about extreme political belief? Religion? If there are other people who think like you do does it make it any less crazy? OTOH, if you grow up surrounded by those ideas, are you merely doing what normal people do - which is adapt to the society around you?

I'm still thinking about that.

As a challenge to you, and not anything I am asking you to reply to, but just to think about - since coming here you've been exposed to many different ideas. Have you run across any set of facts or a logical analysis which has shifted any of your beliefs?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:37 AM

I think that since I came here in Feb. I've definitely had a chance to consider a lot of my political beliefs because I've seen the extremes of both sides and been able to consider and annalyze where I land in that continuum. I've become more willing to look at ideas that I would have considered rediculous or far fetched. I've also become bolder in saying what I think about things, I never lied about what I thought because I wouldn't ever pretend to think something I don't think, but I've been emboldened to say whatever I think without worrying about others. But at the same time I still like to try and phrase things in a fashion that isn't cruel to others or mean spirited.

DT has got me to feel that we may indirectly be impacting climate change through deforestation, whereas I used to think it was all the earth and we had nothing to do with it, but I agree that we aren't responsable for most of it and we aren't responsable in the ways that most people think of. My opinion of the DEA is rapidly declining based on stuff you guys say, I'd never thought much about it before but more and more I'm starting to think that criminalizing substances in the way we do doesn't accomplish much. I'm not a very conspiratorial person most of the time, but there are a few things that I lean that way on, and seeing other people do it makes me not feel so silly, and when my dad (who is neurotypical but tends towards conspiratorialism) starts talking conspiracies I see where he's coming from more, I think some of that is Frem's doing.

So those are some things, they aren't huge things but I do notice little differences in my feelings about some issues since coming here. Is that the kind of answer you were looking for Kiki?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya