Santorum's unbelievable statements, omission, hypocrisy, flip-flops and lies about college
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Monday, March 12, 2012 19:10
VIEWED: 9236
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Quote:
Speaking at the Tea Party group Americans For Prosperity’s Michigan branch in Troy, Michigan, GOP presidential candidate Rick Santorum attacked President Barack Obama for wanting students to go to college (video below).
Santorum said: "President Obama wants everybody in America to go to college, what a snob. There are good, decent men and women who work hard every day and put their skills to the test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor. And trying to indoctrinate them.”
However, In 2006, while he was a senator, Santorum pushed to make college more affordable for all Pennsylvanians on his web site. http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/2012-election/video-rick-santo
rum-calls-pres-obama-snob-advocating-college-education, Santorum told Beck that “62 percent of kids who go into college with a faith commitment leave without it,” but failed to say where he found that figure.Quote:
"statistic that I was familiar with"...uh, huh...
“You know the statistic that at least I was familiar with from a few years ago, I don't know if it still holds true but I suspect it may even be worse, that 62 percent of kids who enter college with some sort of faith commitment leave without it.”
How about some FACTS regarding all that?
The omission: PBS tracked down a study Santorum might have been referring toQuote:
The flat-out lie? Obama never said everyone has to, or even should, go to college.
but it actually suggests that people who have not enrolled in college are even less religious. “64 percent of those currently enrolled in a traditional four-year institution have curbed their attendance habits,” said the study, published in the journal Social Forces. “Yet, 76 percent of those who never enrolled in college report a decline in religious service attendance.”
Another study, published last year in the Review of Religious Research, found that for each year of education after 7th grade, seemingly contradictory trends emerge: people become more likely to attend religious services and to believe in a “higher power” but at the same time they are less likely to say the Bible is the “actual word of God” and become more open to believing there is truth in more than one religion.
The researcher, sociologist Philip Schwadel, concluded after analyzing data from a large national survey:Quote:
“The above results suggest that religion plays an important role in the lives of highly educated Americans. While education has a positive effect on switching religious af?liations, particularly to mainline denominations and ‘other’ religious traditions, it is unrelated to religious disaf?liation. Education also has a positive effect on religious participation, emphasizing the importance of religion, and supporting the rights of religious authorities to in?uence people’s votes.”Quote:
“And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma. And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country — and this country needs and values the talents of every American.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/santorums-misfir
e-on-obama-colleges-and-religion/2012/02/27/gIQAl5KWeR_blog.html COURSE it's red meat to lie about what Obama said, and call him a "snob" for saying what he didn't, we all know that.
It's also quite a flip-flop for Santorum, who made a campaign pledge in 2006:Quote:
“ensuring the [sic] every Pennsylvanian has access to higher education,” including providing “loans, grants, and tax incentives to make higher education more accessible and affordable.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/santorums-misfir
e-on
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How is this so very different than what you accuse me of doing against Obama ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is this so very different than what you accuse me of doing against Obama ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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"We've got to make sure that every young person in America is prepared for college and then can afford to go to college."- B.Obama. Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee dinner in Minneapolis, Minn., on Oct. 23, 2010
Citations like that ?
The bigger issue is, does every young adult NEED to go to college ? Seems clear that if you're talking about preparing for college and making it affordable, then you're talking about every, or nearly every child , going to college.
PolitiFact cited 18 times that Obama made references to this topic, and IN THEIR OPINION, Santorum was wrong. Wrong because Obama didn't say the exact words in the exact order Santorum claimed they were said, yet the underlying message was clear. PolitiFact says the claim by Santorum is false, I say it has merit.
Again, how is this any different than what I do ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Prepared and can are not the same as "must".
Its subtle distinctions like that... knowing what words actually mean.... that escape you, Rappy boy.
Sure, we're falling behind the rest of the world in education.... but lets attack the Prez for wanting people to be educated. What a snob.
You'd fit in very well with a bufoon like Santorum, Rappy. No wonder you defend his innanity so.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Prepared and can are not the same as "must".
Its subtle distinctions like that... knowing what words actually mean.... that escape you, Rappy boy.
Sure, we're falling behind the rest of the world in education.... but lets attack the Prez for wanting people to be educated. What a snob.
You'd fit in very well with a bufoon like Santorum, Rappy. No wonder you defend his innanity so.
I see neither you or Niki can answer my 1st question, and instead jump right in on the petty and shallow insults.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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My initial post in the thread addressed your question.
Then my second post followed up on it.
Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Im really not sure which is worse....Santorum's comment about college, or the fact that the room erupted in cheers when he said it...
Ive always known that the republican party, at its leadership, is anti-education. They have demonstrated that time again, stupid voters are their bread and butter.
Why would poor people from Michigan be anti-education? What path is more likely than an education to help them and their families?
I really wanna know the secret...how do the republicans get people to vote against their own self interest again and again and again?
Actually as I think about it, the answer to that question might be....dont let people get educated! Ah, it all makes sense to me now.
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It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
My initial post in the thread addressed your question.
No, it didn't.
Quote:
Then my second post followed up on it.
Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.
Seems you still don't get it. I'll ask again.
How is this any different than me posting threads regarding Obama ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.
Thats what makes it unacceptable.
Your opinions and tactics are barely tolerable on a message board, for a MAJOR political candidate to do the same...well, Ed Rendell, former Gov of PA, put it best.
Im paraphrasing here "As a democrat, who wants an incumbant reelected, Im thrilled. As a member of America looking at the long term health of our politcal system, I am very concerned"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
My initial post in the thread addressed your question.
No, it didn't.Quote:
Then my second post followed up on it.
Both before getting to the entirely apt insults - you friggin moron.
Seems you still don't get it. I'll ask again.
How is this any different than me posting threads regarding Obama ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Already answered. Try reading.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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What was wrong with Story's answer AU?
I don't know exactly what Niki chastises you for doing in relation to Obama, but I've never seen you fact-check someone you're criticising, for example.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.
Thats what makes it unacceptable.
So, to clarify... you're agreeing that what both I and Niki do is " unacceptable " ?
Or only when I do it ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Rappy, it isnt that much different than what u do.
Thats what makes it unacceptable.
So, to clarify... you're agreeing that what both I and Niki do is " unacceptable " ?
Or only when I do it ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
LOL.
You missed it.
Blue didn't say what you and Nikki do are the same - but what you and Santorum did are the same.
Hilarious.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
What was wrong with Story's answer AU?
I don't know exactly what Niki chastises you for doing in relation to Obama, but I've never seen you fact-check someone you're criticising, for example.
It's not personal. It's just war.
Because it doesn't address the question.
When I post something about Obama... Niki replies
You must have really had to go some to dig that one up
Implying that it's of a trivial nature, and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. In short, she disparages anything I post, but when SHE does it, why....it's an OUTrage! How DARE Santorum make such UNBELIEVABLE statements! Oh, the hypocrisy! The LIES! ...
Hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric , it seems, only gets noticed on here when some folks post, but not others.
Which is why I ask the question that has yet to be answered.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Story - no, YOU missed it. What I and Niki do ARE the same.
Silly cop picture applies to you, not me.
Have a nice day, ma'am.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Ah, I see.
Then the answer is nothing is different, other than that Niki posts quotes, links, and facts, none of which u do.
In my opinion, Niki's posts are to begin a discussion, maybe not all of them, but in general.
Your posting attitude is that you are teaching people about things they dont know, which is arrogant, and typically absurd. You reach as hard as u can to correlate some quote by someone on "The Left" and then make generalizations and conclusion about it.
Niki posts things on current events. Using this thread as an example, Santorum said something outrageous, that even he had to back away from immediately (check his fox interview the next day).
How is that not topical, during an election campaign?
Again, has anyone said u CANT post your absurd Obama rants? I seriously doubt it, as last I checked u have every right to do so, just as Niki has every right to ridicule them when u do.
Thats called America buddy, didnt expect to hear u railing against free speech, but eh...
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Glad u noticed that Story, I was wondering if it just flew over the head or what :)
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Quote:
Hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric , it seems, only gets noticed on here when some folks post, but not others.
This is a curious statement; are you confessing that your anti-Obama (or whatever) posts are hyperbole and ridiculous rhetoric?
Or do those terms only apply to Niki's posts? In which case aren't you doing the very same thing you accuse us on the left of doing - calling one person's posts hyperbole, but not saying the same about another person's equivalent posts (your own)?
Just interested in how your mind works.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Story - no, YOU missed it. What I and Niki do ARE the same.
Silly cop picture applies to you, not me.
Have a nice day, ma'am.
Ah, the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense.
You aint fooling anyone, son. There's a reason even the other conservatives have given up on your dumb ass.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Actually, Blue, you're wrong.
I post articles, video and cite them, with links, as well. I don't post endless paragraphs , as to the extent of Niki, but so what ? That isn't the point.
She brings up matters of interest to her, as I do the same for me.
She presents the side of the story she wants to promote, as do I.
Storybook - You missed MY point, and who's the dumb ass ?
Too gorram funny.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Glad u noticed that Story, I was wondering if it just flew over the head or what :)
I think there has to be a functional head for a statemnt to fly over. Alas, your target is not in possesion of one.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Hello,
I believe every law abiding American citizen should have the opportunity to purchase a weapon for their defense. I believe that every American should be able to afford to purchase such a weapon.
Which of course means that every American must be forced to purchase a weapon.
In Santorum/Auraptor logic land.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Anthony
Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.
Two entirely different issues.
Pretty weak comparison, actually.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I believe every law abiding American citizen should have the opportunity to purchase a weapon for their defense. I believe that every American should be able to afford to purchase such a weapon.
Which of course means that every American must be forced to purchase a weapon.
In Santorum/Auraptor logic land.
--Anthony
Well said.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony
Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.
Two entirely different issues.
Pretty weak comparison, actually.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Hello,
I didn't mention the second amendment. Take my statement for what it is, and not what you need it to be in order to wrongly dismiss it.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony
Sorry, but 2nd Amendment rights don't apply to college education.
Two entirely different issues.
Pretty weak comparison, actually.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Hello,
I didn't mention the second amendment. Take my statement for what it is, and not what you need it to be in order to wrongly dismiss it.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
You're expecting him to comprehend an analogy...?
Good luck.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Welcome to Rappy missing the point.
This is a good illustration of the Republican Bubble, as Bill Maher calls it.
Nowhere in Anthony's post does it say that the 2nd amendment applies to college.
Its not even close to that, and yet somehow thats what Rappy read. Dont ask me how, I couldnt make that leap myself, no idea here.
The point, Rappy, is that U SAID Obama saying every child should be prepared for college is forcing them to go to college.
Its what u said.
Anthony's satire USED the 2nd Amendment to show how absurd a position that is for u to take.
extremely well done satire i might add.
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Anthony -
I didn't wrongly dismiss it. I disagreed w/ your analogy. It's an absurd analogy, to compare the purchase of a fire arm, to that of obtaining a college degree.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I've never asked myself this before, but... Is Auraptor a liberal sock puppet? Out to utterly discredit right-wing political thought? He seems too good to be true.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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I didn't miss the point. But go ahead and claim I did. Also claim I lied, too, while you're at it. And call me a racist, homophobe, bigot, and a misogynist, too. Oh, and don't forget to call me stupid. Can't omit that one. 
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:....sigh.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony -
I didn't wrongly dismiss it. I disagreed w/ your analogy. It's an absurd analogy, to compare the purchase of a fire arm, to that of obtaining a college degree.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
And once again, by insisting he gets it, he proves he does not.
Keep it up, Wilbur.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Hello,
Sometimes, Mr. Raptor, I understand why people can be incited to treat you so harshly.
I am using an example of logic. It really doesn't matter what the analogy is. What's important is the IF / THEN nature of logic itself.
I believe that the American people would benefit from vitamin supplements, which may fill gaps in their nutrition. I believe that every American should be able to afford Vitamin supplements.
Which means (according to your interpretation of Obama) I want to force the American people to buy vitamin supplements.
Let's try something else.
I believe that the American people would benefit from following a conservative philosophy. I believe that every American should have the opportunity to vote conservative.
Which means (according to your interpretation of Obama) I want to force the American people to vote conservative.
The analogy shows yours (and Santorum's) logical fallacy.
It's not about vitamins or conservatives or the 2nd amendment. It's about broken thinking. Santorum's, and also yours.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I've never asked myself this before, but... Is Auraptor a liberal sock puppet? Out to utterly discredit right-wing thinking? He seems too good to be true.
It's not personal. It's just war.
No,I'm an actual person, real and true. The problem is, my views apparently are so foreign to yours, or what you're use to hearing, that you can't fathom that anyone would actually believe in what I say, or think.
Or even more, that anyone would NOT believe in what YOU do. I guess, in your minds, you've made me out to be the enemy, and therefore, anything NOT like you must be ganged up on, attacked, and ridiculed. It's pretty basic school yard mentality, really.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I'll explain Anthony's point for you Auraptor, because you're having a 'mare as we say in England:
Obama said all Americans should have the opportunity to go to college (take a look, that's all he said). Santorum interpreted that as 'all Americans should go to college'. Anthony applied the same logic to gun rights: "all Americans should have the opportunity to buy and own a gun" apparently means "all Americans must (or should) own a gun".
The logic is shown to be absurd.
EDIT: Ok well done Anthony, you've already explained it perfectly.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
EDIT: Ok well done Anthony, you've already explained it perfectly.
You both explained it very well.
And both explainations will fall on willfully deaf ears.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Anthony -
When ever a politician, particularly a LIBERAL politician, talks about how EVERYONE should be able to do this or that, or how EVERYONE should be able to afford this or that, the REALITY is that they're talking about entitlements. And in this case, of school education, it means govt give-aways.
Who has set RULES for college loans ? Obama.
Quote:
The Obama plan calls for the U.S. Department of Education to move from its current 20% share of the student-loan origination market to 80% on July 1, 2010, when private lenders will be barred from making government-guaranteed loans.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574405154157021
052.html
So, when Obama gives flowery speeches on everyone going to college ( or, everyone AFFORDING college ) , what he's really driving at is a system where govt basically pays for everyone to go to college.
My view is that the govt should not be so invested in making it a RIGHT that everyone go to college. Just as it is not a RIGHT that everyone receive free healthcare. Those things, imo, go beyond the scope of the proper function of govt. If Sen. Santorum and I agree on this matter, so be it. He's not alone on the matter. Ron Paul also agrees.
Ron Paul defends eventual end to federal student loans
“Why should people who are laborers who never get to go to college, why should they be taxed to send some of us through college?” Paul said Sunday on CNN. “So it’s not even a fair system when it works. But obviously it doesn’t work and that’s why it’s coming to an end.”
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/30/ron-paul-defends-event
ual-end-to-federal-student-loans/
KPO - If you're from England, then I don't expect you to understand very much at all what I mean on certain matters. I have more Libertarian views on govt spending, which likely are completely foreign and opposite to what you were brought up knowing.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Or even more, that anyone would NOT believe in what YOU do. I guess, in your minds, you've made me out to be the enemy, and therefore, anything NOT like you must be ganged up on, attacked, and ridiculed.
On the contrary, I'm very interested in people who think differently from me, and why, and how. And I don't think you're the enemy, or a bad person. But I do think you have BIG reasoning flaws, and logical blind spots, that enable you to be as partisan as you are.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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See?
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
See?
Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it flew completely over your head.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I was getting the dogs out, but I'm back so I will answer your question. How is it different? Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention. I did my research, I showed the omission, hypocrisy, flip flop and lie, as well as the absurdity of saying almost exactly what Obama did with respect to education; that vocational classes or some other way of gaining SKILLS to get a job is what is optimum.
I'll have to keep editing this, I see, as more and more comes up. With respect to my "reaching", no, I didn't. I heard it last night on CNN so went to the internet and read SEVERAL ARTICLES, both pro and con, about what he had said, what Obama had said, and other facts. Then I put up articles which best represented those facts. I don't "reach", I see things in the news that grab my attention, then follow them up if they're interesting enough. This one made my head spin...as it should anyone's!
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Quote:
I have more Libertarian views on govt spending, which likely are completely foreign and opposite to what you were brought up knowing.
I would like to think I understand the Libertarian viewpoint fairly well, and even - despite the disadvantage of my European upbringing - that I understand it better than YOU (sometimes it seems to me you are far from Libertarian, without realising it).
So I would like to challenge you to a Libertarian duel. Let's both take an online political-compass type test, and aim for 100% Libertarian - and whoever gets closest understands Libertarianism best. Deal?
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
See?
Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it few completely over your head.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
A full and direct response that deliberately avoided the logic issues everyone was pointing out by insisting you.
Just as I predicted.
Instead, you tried to shift the focus from your dumb-ass response to a simple analogy, by insisting that you, with your magical powers, have insight into what Obama REALLY meant, but only YOU know.
You just dive deeper into your delusions by the day. I love it.
Oh, but you regurgited the "flew over head" line that was used against you. That's right up there with your "I know you are" comeback.
Pretty soon, you'll be up to 3rd grade level. Good job!
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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I have to go now AU - so I'll have to do the duel another time.
But you can get started: take an online politics test, aim for 100% Libertarian and post your score (no cheating). I'll do it when I come back.
Alternatively Anthony (as the most authenticaly Libertarian RWED poster to my mind) could choose the test?
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Okay, final words on the subject.
Thank you, Blue:Quote:
Yes, MOST of my threads are things I think might be of interest to discuss...some are not, some are satirical snarks, but mostly I look for interesting news stories. And yes, I'm biased as to WHICH news stories, in that Alt.Univ. and his crew will always find the ones that diss the left, and I will put up those that diss the right about 90% of the time (I have put up more than one dissing the left over time, I might note).
In my opinion, Niki's posts are to begin a discussion, maybe not all of them, but in general.
Your posting attitude is that you are teaching people about things they dont know, which is arrogant, and typically absurd. You reach as hard as u can to correlate some quote by someone on "The Left" and then make generalizations and conclusion about it.
Niki posts things on current events. Using this thread as an example, Santorum said something outrageous, that even he had to back away from immediately (check his fox interview the next day).
How is that not topical, during an election campaign?
On the subject of education, Santorum's idea that there are tons of folk out there with talents which don't require a degree, here are a few things to take into consideration. The mention of "FPs" is "for-profit" education providers, like:Quote:
This trajectory is clear: in 1973, twenty-five million jobs required applicants to have at least some college education. By 2007, that number had nearly quadrupled to ninety-one million jobs. During that time, the percentage of jobs available to high school dropouts fell from 32 percent to 11 percent, while the percentage of jobs requiring some education after high school grew from 28 percent to 59 percent (Carnevale, Smith and Strohl, 2010).
Just as importantly, the changing labor market will continue to push demand. The National Bureau of Economic Research states that there is a, “growing mismatch between the jobs that will be created over the next decade and the education training of our adult workers.” Those jobs that rely on workers with only a high school education or less are quickly receding in numbers and importance (Heckman, Humphries and Maden, 2010). Another recent analysis funded by a number of foundations looking to promote higher education attainment levels in the US, and worried over the progress of economic competitors, notes that, “Postsecondary education has become the threshold requirement for a middle-class family income,” and that the Great Recession is accelerating the shift in jobs that require a college degree. Yet the educational attainment level of both lower income families and the middle class is dropping (Carnevale, Smith and Strohl, 2010).
The Great Recession has accelerated these financial troubles for public colleges and universities, where currently some 80 percent of all students in the US are enrolled. In the mega-state of California, for example, it has led to estimates that in the 2010-11 academic year approximately 250,000 eligible students were denied access to the state’s public higher education system. Over 200,000 would have enrolled normally in one of California’s 110 community colleges; but the lack of funding and an extremely low tuition and fee policy resulted in large-scale decreases in the teaching staff and the number of courses that could be offered (Douglass, 2010b).
President Obama announced in 2009 the goal that by 2020, “America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.” He also asked that every American commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. “This can be Community College or a four year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma” (White House, 2009).
The inability of the public sector to meet current let alone future demand,
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
See?
Story, the deaf ears are yours. I gave a very full and direct response, and it few completely over your head.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Hello,
Mr. Raptor, you did give a full and direct response. Unfortunately it did not touch on the logical fallacy I was addressing. (The one which you and Santorum made.) Instead you talked about entitlements and government social welfare programs.
Unfortunately, I have no links to reliable political surveys online. I've taken a few in the past, but I can't remember their links or names.
The results are always interesting. I've surprised myself on occasion.
Any good political score will have to be on two axis (axes? What's the plural of axis?) minimum.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
. How is it different? Becuase it includes facts and citations, and quotes used entirely IN context - and not a bunch of paranoid speculation and invention. I did my research, I showed the omission, hypocrisy, flip flop and lie, as well as the absurdity of saying almost exactly what Obama did with respect to education; that vocational classes or some other way of gaining SKILLS to get a job is what is optimum.
Well, I do the same things, quotes, links, in context, but that's NOT what I was asking.
Simply put, I'm not even asking about the Santorum statement specifically, but how you generally post things promoting Left wing issues, while vilifying those on the Right. I post similar things pro Right, anti- Left. That's to what I was referring.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I have to go now AU - so I'll have to do the duel another time.
But you can get started: take an online politics test, aim for 100% Libertarian and post your score (no cheating). I'll do it when I come back.
It's not personal. It's just war.
KPO - I've taken the world's smallest political quiz, at LP.ORG, a few times. Always comes out about the same. Conservative Libertarian.
You ?
And what's with the " 100% Libertarian " remark ? I never claimed to be that, but said I leaned MORE towards libertarian views. From my past experience w/ some Europeans on this matter, I wonder if you have the false impression that Libertarians are full blown anarchists ? Who favors almost NO govt ? If so, then I understand your confusion. That ain't me, to quote one famous captain.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Anthony - There was no logical fallacy in my response. I was dealing directly, literally, and to the point of the issue. You , inexplicably, decided to go off on some ridiculous tangent. Which is fine, but didn't address the over all issue. I am discussing the issues and polices of the Obama administration, and where he wants to take this country. Not fictitious scenarios about guns not having to do w/ 2nd Amendment rights.
Story - Pretty much writing you off has one who'll ever have a clue, at all.
Quote:
A full and direct response that deliberately avoided the logic issues everyone was pointing out by insisting you.
Insisting I.... what ?
Quote:Because you only see the world as you want to see it, not how it is.
Just as I predicted.
Quote:
Instead, you tried to shift the focus from your dumb-ass response to a simple analogy, by insisting that you, with your magical powers, have insight into what Obama REALLY meant, but only YOU know.
Actually, if you read my post, you'd see that I gave Obama's own words, and cited where he said them. But again, deaf ears. ( or blind eyes )
Quote:Which delusions are those ? Care to be specific ? Or are you just mouthing empty nonsense, as a means of insulting me when you have no concrete, coherent reply ? We are getting deeper, the longer Obama is in office. That part ya got right.
You just dive deeper into your delusions by the day. I love it.
Quote:
Oh, but you regurgited the "flew over head" line that was used against you. That's right up there with your "I know you are" comeback.
We're talking past each other, it seems, and you're unwilling to follow what I'm saying. Which has lead you down the wrong path entirely. I refuse to play your game, which is why you can claim something went over my head. I know what I'm talking about... do you ?
Quote:
Pretty soon, you'll be up to 3rd grade level. Good job!
An insult worthy of a 5th or 6th grader. Your mommy and daddy must be proud.
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http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
My results were as follows:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=0.75&soc=-6
.15
(In case the image doesn't work, I have the actual values below.)
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.75 (Positive values are more 'right wing' negative are more 'left wing')
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15 (Positive values are more 'authoritarian,' negative are more 'libertarian.')
I remember taking a similar test years ago and scoring much further right, which indicates to me that my conversations and arguments on this forum have actually borne fruit in the form of evolving ideas. Thank you, posters of Firefly RWED.
It's important to note that if the test is to have any value about revealing aspects of self, you should not go into the test with an agenda to prove something. Just think about the questions and see how you feel. They are not ON/OFF questions, and do consider intensity of feeling to some degree, which is one reason this test seemed good to me.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, I do the same things, quotes, links, in context, but that's NOT what I was asking.
You posts links, and quotes. Sometimes they are in context, often they are not or you simply think they mean something different then they do and you try to use them to support arguments or views they simply don't.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Anthony - There was no logical fallacy in my response. I was dealing directly, literally, and to the point of the issue. You , inexplicably, decided to go off on some ridiculous tangent.
Hello,
You do understand we were discussing false assertions made by Santorum about things Obama had said, right?
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
I realize that's what you were asking. But I gave my response, as did others, this one in my opinion pretty much nails it:
Simply put, I'm not even asking about the Santorum statement specifically, but how you generally post things promoting Left wing issues, while vilifying those on the Right. I post similar things pro Right, anti- Left. That's to what I was referring. Quote:
I would add to that the fact that you post titles which are snarks right off the bat, then provide text which reflects the above.
You posts links, and quotes. Sometimes they are in context, often they are not or you simply think they mean something different then they do and you try to use them to support arguments or views they simply don't.
Yes, you go after the left, I focus on problems I see with the right. One difference is you'll look for ANYTHING against the left, while I'll ignore any number of things against the right. And again and again, you dismiss things (such as the remark about aspirin between the legs) as unimportant, or defend things such as what Santorum did, with all your might. When people offer facts which contradict what you claim, you start getting nasty and don't show facts to uphold your argument.
Enough is enough; you will never see the difference, so I don't know why I bothered this far.
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Anthony - We're talking politics, right ?
Both sides engage in distortion, misquoting, that's not what I'm talking about though.
Santorum's comments were directed toward Obama's policies, in the context of what Obama wants to do, the direction he wants to take the country, and the manner by which he wants to achieve his goals.
Obama , a Democrat, crafts his policies in such a way that it'll favor the teacher's unions, and getting more people addicted to , tied to, use to looking to the govt for assistance , in all areas. From food stamps, healthcare to getting an education.
I'm talking real world issues here, actual political polices, and not getting caught up in the minutia of the theoretical. Nothing against the latter, mind you, but we're talking apples and Snozzberries.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Both sides engage in distortion, misquoting, that's not what I'm talking about though.
Hello,
I misunderstood Santorum's distortion and misquoting to be integral to the subject of this thread.
Quote:
I'm talking real world issues here, actual political polices, and not getting caught up in the minutia of the theoretical.
And I think it's been demonstrated that the distortion and misquoting in this case is not theoretical.
However, if you do not find such details (distortion of facts, misquoting of people) to be real, important factors...
It explains a great deal about how you approach topics here on RWED.
I trust you will never dwell on the distortions and misquotes of the opposition, and that you will remain true to your commitment that these small details are not important to the big picture of politics.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
A decent quiz. Here was my result:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.00&soc=-3.23
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, I do the same things, quotes, links, in context, but that's NOT what I was asking.
You posts links, and quotes. Sometimes they are in context, often they are not or you simply think they mean something different then they do and you try to use them to support arguments or views they simply don't.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Nail on the head.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
A decent quiz. Here was my result:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.00&soc=-3.23
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
Hello,
Frem has a favorite 'alignment chart' and I'll invite him to share it so we can all have a chuckle.
I didn't always lean libertarian. As a child I was very Authoritative, very Right. Then I started thinking over the things I'd been told and finding fault with them.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Nail on the head.
Un uh.
They are exactly as I state them to be, it's just some don't like hearing the truth, and spin things to make themselves feel better.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
They are exactly as I state them to be,
Hello,
Except when they are distortions and misquotes, which are things not worth discussing in the arena of big picture politics.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Quote:
They are exactly as I state them to be,
Except when they are distortions and misquotes, which are things not worth discussing in the arena of big picture politics.
--Anthony
Take things out of context much ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Take things out of context much?
Hello,
I think your position regarding distortions and misquotes is relevant to the subject of people not accepting many of your cites, or your cites not conveying the information you hoped they'd convey. It may explain why some of your referenced information is ignored or dismissed by your target audience. The feeling that distortions are irrelevant to the big picture speaks very deeply to the disconnect between you and your audience.
And so very much relevant and on-topic and in-context.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Naw Anthony - some folks just don't like hearing the truth. So they take it out on me.
i get that.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Hello,
I think people don't like hearing what you have to say, Mr. Raptor, but I'm not sure I equate that with not wanting to hear the truth.
Actually, I think the distortion/misquote thing has opened my eyes to a lot of your thinking and debate technique. With the way you feel about such things, I can see that your source selection would be affected. If a source conveys an idea that is 'True' to you, you would feel free to use it, even if it might be incorrect in some particular irrelevancy of 'Fact.'
Thus: Truth > Fact, to your line of thinking.
This is why Santorum can say things that are factually incorrect, but still be True.
It follows that you could say things that are factually incorrect in some particular, but you would still regard them as 'True' if they conveyed the True idea, philosophy, or conclusion.
Probably all human beings are subject to this to some degree. However, most people recognize this as an error once they are made aware of it, or have it pointed out to them.
I do not think this is the case for you. I believe in your case, as long as a bit of data or information leads to the 'Truth' its Factual content is utterly irrelevant.
The problem, of course, stems from the fact that other people do not use the process of Truth > Fact. Other people believe that Facts are the route to Truth, and perhaps their reasoning is more along the lines of Truth = Fact. Thus, when Facts prove to be incorrect, they naturally question the Truth of something.
A compromise position of self-indulgence probably exists where Facts are carefully selected to convey a perceived Truth, and this is virtually a universal debate technique. I'm positive I've been guilty of this myself. Still, I like to think that when Facts are proven to be wrong, I question my Truths.
This all makes a great deal of sense, and relates to the 'Broken Thinking' concept I raised earlier.
As long as Truth > Fact to you, your thinking processes will always seem alien and wrong to the rest of us, and people will be inclined to exclude things you proclaim as 'Facts' to support your 'Truth.' This is also why no amount of 'Facts' can ever prove your 'Truth' to be Untrue. When put against Truth, the Facts are irrelevant.
A universal failing applied by you as an ideal.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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I saw a similar Santorum quote on the news the other day. But in the one I saw he said "You know why Obama wants you to go to college? So you can be remade in his image." and the audience cheered. Ew. I was apalled, education is really important in life if you want to find a good job or have an intelligent conversation. Of course education can come from other places besides college, I know some people who just learnt things themselves and are very clever and can have really deep philosophical conversations. But college is a logical way to get educated, plus with the economy you need either a degree or a certification, so going to trade school or college is paramount more than ever before.
The funny thing is that when I told my dad what Santorum said he actually said there might be some truth in it. I mean I was brought up knowing I was going to college, it wasn't an option, so why would my dad side with Santorum? I'm not going to deny that college does sometimes change people's views on things in ways that some might consider negative, but that's the risk you have to take I guess. The benefits out weigh the flaws in my opinion.
For a while I was seriously considering voting for Santorum, because I don't like Newt or Romney, but he's said some things lately that I just can't abide so I can't give him my vote.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Before most/any of you were born, I had a beau, Joe. I don't know who said it first, but Joe said it oftener:
"A man only believes what he wants to believe."
This statement would obviously apply to other men who disagreed with him. But he knew that women were inferior
to men in every way. He said it to me about me, inferring women in general, who, by our nature, were incapable
of objectivity.
A certain calm, unprejudiced objectivity is necessary if we ever want to know the truth about anything. Science
is based on this.
As for his conviction that women are inferior to men in every way, it was obvious so no proof was necessary.
Therefore, when objectivity fails and proof is lacking, resort to, "It's obvious!"
"I don't have to show you no stinkin' Logic!"
Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
"We've got to make sure that every young person in America is prepared for college and then can afford to go to college."- B.Obama. Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee dinner in Minneapolis, Minn., on Oct. 23, 2010
Citations like that ?
The bigger issue is, does every young adult NEED to go to college ? Seems clear that if you're talking about preparing for college and making it affordable, then you're talking about every, or nearly every child , going to college.
PolitiFact cited 18 times that Obama made references to this topic, and IN THEIR OPINION, Santorum was wrong. Wrong because Obama didn't say the exact words in the exact order Santorum claimed they were said, yet the underlying message was clear. PolitiFact says the claim by Santorum is false, I say it has merit.
Again, how is this any different than what I do ?
It isn't any different than what you do. Santorum makes statements and claims that are demonstrably false, and so do you. His claims are SHOWN to be false, and so are yours. And he stands by his false claims, as you do too. Someone proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that your claims are false, and you still say they have merit.
Yes, indeed - you are exactly like Santorum in that regard.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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So I would like to challenge you to a Libertarian duel. Let's both take an online political-compass type test, and aim for 100% Libertarian - and whoever gets closest understands Libertarianism best. Deal?
VERY interesting proposal.
It's important to note that if the test is to have any value about revealing aspects of self, you should not go into the test with an agenda to prove something.
Well, I think the idea is to put your understanding to the test - to see if your understanding is complete enough to accurately predict the correct answers and garner a high target score.
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2nd, 3rd time ( lost count, doesn't matter ) I'm going to say this.
I was comparing what I do with Niki, not Santorum.
Good grief.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I believe every law abiding American citizen should have the opportunity to purchase a weapon for their defense. I believe that every American should be able to afford to purchase such a weapon.
Which of course means that every American must be forced to purchase a weapon.
In Santorum/Auraptor logic land.
--Anthony
Oh, Anthony - you're such a snob!
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So I would like to challenge you to a Libertarian duel. Let's both take an online political-compass type test, and aim for 100% Libertarian - and whoever gets closest understands Libertarianism best. Deal?
VERY interesting proposal.
Are you challenging anyone in particular ? I never claimed to be " 100% " Libertarian. Perhaps you're asking KPO ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Oh, and don't forget to call me stupid. Can't omit that one.
'Cause it's for damn sure you never omit that one, do you?
Seriously, you're going to whinge about name-calling now, when you're among the worst here at doing just that?
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
2nd, 3rd time ( lost count, doesn't matter ) I'm going to say this.
I was comparing what I do with Niki, not Santorum.
Good grief.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Yeah, we get that.
Its just that the rest of us feel there is far more in common with you and Santorum. Your agreement is not required.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Seriously, you're going to whinge about name-calling now, when you're among the worst here at doing just that?
Seems like we've had this conversation a dozen times before...
Yeah, I respond to the name calling. No where near the worst offender though. I don't give out nearly as much as is directed towards me.
"whinge"
I can't recall having even seen that word before. I didn't know you were British.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Its just that the rest of us feel there is far more in common with you and Santorum. Your agreement is not required.
What the rest of you feel and what actually happens aren't always similar.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
My results were as follows:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=0.75&soc=-6
.15
(In case the image doesn't work, I have the actual values below.)
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.75 (Positive values are more 'right wing' negative are more 'left wing')
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15 (Positive values are more 'authoritarian,' negative are more 'libertarian.')
I remember taking a similar test years ago and scoring much further right, which indicates to me that my conversations and arguments on this forum have actually borne fruit in the form of evolving ideas. Thank you, posters of Firefly RWED.
It's important to note that if the test is to have any value about revealing aspects of self, you should not go into the test with an agenda to prove something. Just think about the questions and see how you feel. They are not ON/OFF questions, and do consider intensity of feeling to some degree, which is one reason this test seemed good to me.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
I think you and Rappy both misunderstood KPO's challenge. The core challenge here is to see who better UNDERSTANDS libertarianism, not how you score on your current beliefs. The challenge was to give your best "libertarian" answers to the questions, as you understood them, and we'd see who came out as being "more" libertarian, thus who better understands what the core beliefs and values of libertarianism are.
I generally score about as far into the bottom left corner as one can get, as a hard-left libertarian.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony - We're talking politics, right ?
Both sides engage in distortion, misquoting, that's not what I'm talking about though.
Santorum's comments were directed toward Obama's policies, in the context of what Obama wants to do, the direction he wants to take the country, and the manner by which he wants to achieve his goals.
Obama , a Democrat, crafts his policies in such a way that it'll favor the teacher's unions, and getting more people addicted to , tied to, use to looking to the govt for assistance , in all areas. From food stamps, healthcare to getting an education.
I'm talking real world issues here, actual political polices, and not getting caught up in the minutia of the theoretical. Nothing against the latter, mind you, but we're talking apples and Snozzberries.
So when Santorum "paraphrases" Obama's policies, and says that Obama thinks every American should go to college, if you look on the flipside of that, Santorum says that NOT every American should go to college, or be able to.
So him saying they shouldn't go, or be able to go, means that Santorum's agenda is that NO Americans should go to college.
That's as accurate a statement as Santorum made, and which you defended.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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I've got an idea for an interesting experiment that I'm going to do on the all of you. I can't tell you what it is until afterwords, but it will take one week, starting tomorrow. At that juncture I will give my results.
I say whinge a lot instead of whine.
Raptor, I think KPO wants to take the test with you not Kiki, although Kiki's answers to the test are certainly welcome too.
I'm most definitely not a libertarian.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Hello Mike,
Well, I think even someone with cognitive impairment can spoof a test result. I'm also pretty sure if anyone might understand how to use talking points for a desired score, it's Mr. Raptor.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
A decent quiz. Here was my result:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.00&soc=-3.23
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
Mine:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.75&soc=-9.08
I've mellowed! Last time I took it, I was FAR more left-leaning - like, as far left as the graph allowed, and one notch from the bottom on the libertarian scale.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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"So I would like to challenge you to a Libertarian duel. Let's both take an online political-compass type test, and aim for 100% Libertarian - and whoever gets closest understands Libertarianism best. Deal?"
VERY interesting proposal.
"It's important to note that if the test is to have any value about revealing aspects of self, you should not go into the test with an agenda to prove something."
Well, I think the idea is to put your understanding to the test - to see if your understanding is complete enough to accurately predict the correct answers and garner a high target score.
I was just commenting on the whole idea. I have from time to time checked my ability to 'game' a test, but only for fun. The idea of doing it as an actual test of understanding seems really interesting, pertinent, and fun.
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Quote:
I'm most definitely not a libertarian.
Hello,
It would never occur to me to accuse you of such a thing. :-)
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
Hello,
I just looked into the quiz idea. I took this quiz and liked that it scores results on two axis (axes?)
A decent quiz. Here was my result:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.00&soc=-3.23
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
Mine:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.75&soc=-9.08
I've mellowed! Last time I took it, I was FAR more left-leaning - like, as far left as the graph allowed, and one notch from the bottom on the libertarian scale.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
Hello,
Even more Libertarian than I, it seems.
In all your dueling with Mr. Raptor, I often forget you have thoughts and ideas un-entangled with his.
I am much more interested in Mr. Raptor's actual thinking than what he can claim to think. But if you all want to know if he can spoof a test, and he's willing, I'll get some chocolate and wait. (Popcorn makes me choke.)
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I think people don't like hearing what you have to say, Mr. Raptor, but I'm not sure I equate that with not wanting to hear the truth.
Actually, I think the distortion/misquote thing has opened my eyes to a lot of your thinking and debate technique. With the way you feel about such things, I can see that your source selection would be affected. If a source conveys an idea that is 'True' to you, you would feel free to use it, even if it might be incorrect in some particular irrelevancy of 'Fact.'
Thus: Truth > Fact, to your line of thinking.
This is why Santorum can say things that are factually incorrect, but still be True.
It follows that you could say things that are factually incorrect in some particular, but you would still regard them as 'True' if they conveyed the True idea, philosophy, or conclusion.
Probably all human beings are subject to this to some degree. However, most people recognize this as an error once they are made aware of it, or have it pointed out to them.
I do not think this is the case for you. I believe in your case, as long as a bit of data or information leads to the 'Truth' its Factual content is utterly irrelevant.
The problem, of course, stems from the fact that other people do not use the process of Truth > Fact. Other people believe that Facts are the route to Truth, and perhaps their reasoning is more along the lines of Truth = Fact. Thus, when Facts prove to be incorrect, they naturally question the Truth of something.
A compromise position of self-indulgence probably exists where Facts are carefully selected to convey a perceived Truth, and this is virtually a universal debate technique. I'm positive I've been guilty of this myself. Still, I like to think that when Facts are proven to be wrong, I question my Truths.
This all makes a great deal of sense, and relates to the 'Broken Thinking' concept I raised earlier.
As long as Truth > Fact to you, your thinking processes will always seem alien and wrong to the rest of us, and people will be inclined to exclude things you proclaim as 'Facts' to support your 'Truth.' This is also why no amount of 'Facts' can ever prove your 'Truth' to be Untrue. When put against Truth, the Facts are irrelevant.
A universal failing applied by you as an ideal.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
I am reminded of Sen. John Kyl, who hates Planned Parenthood so much that he insisted that "well over 90%" of its business is in doing abortions. When corrected on that, and told unequivocally that abortion services comprise less than THREE PERCENT of PP's business, his spokesman said that his claim "was not intended to be a factual statement".
But people like John Kyl still hate Planned Parenthood, and still believe his original premise - that most of what they do is abortions - and no amount of "facts" will sway them from that lofty perch.
Rappy is exactly this way; no mere *facts* will ever dissuade him from the way he feels. And in his world, in his mind, what he feels is "real", and what is factually true has no relevance at all. And everyone who questions that, or who doesn't believe him, is a "mental midget", a moron, a dumb ass, or stupid and brainless.
This is really how his brain works.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
"whinge"
I can't recall having even seen that word before. I didn't know you were British.
You've not paid attention, I'd say. It's a common enough English-language word, and used quite a bit around here.
Google "fireflyfans.net whinge" for pages of results.
If I say "adios", does that make me Spanish?
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=9.00&soc=-9.46
Hello,
This is my own attempt to purposefully spoof the test, as an exercise of demonstration.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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This thread is on fiya, its apparently the place to be on a Tue. night and we're all here at the same time, its like a chat room!
I wish saying "a stor" and "slan leat" and "go raibh maith agat" made me Irish, I'll drink to that.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
This thread is on fiya, its apparently the place to be on a Tue. night and we're all here at the same time, its like a chat room!
I wish saying "a stor" and "slan leat" and "go raibh maith agat" made me Irish, I'll drink to that.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Darn, Riona - you jinxed it!
Actually, I think everyone else went to bed about the time you logged in. Perils of being on the West Coast, I s'pose.
Meanwhile, the "I'll drink to that" part of your post should qualify you to be Irish, or at least honorary Irish. ;)
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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As usual somewhere near the Dali Lama and Ghandi, with even less respect for authority.
Quote:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.87
Really, is that any kind of surprise ?
Also noteworthy is that I think this result is identical to the first time that test was passed around in one of these threads.
ETA: Proof Rappy doesn't pay attention given how often I use that particular word to describe the conduct of the rightwingnuts when they don't get their way, bout what, maybe twice a day ?
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Its just that the rest of us feel there is far more in common with you and Santorum. Your agreement is not required.
What the rest of you feel and what actually happens aren't always similar.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
That's okay, Rappy. We know you don't get it.
PirateNews doesn't think he's crazy, either.
Funny how those who believe themselves to have the "TRUTH" have simmilar characteristics.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
ETA: Proof Rappy doesn't pay attention given how often I use that particular word to describe the conduct of the rightwingnuts when they don't get their way, bout what, maybe twice a day ?
-F
Doesn't pretty much everything he posts prove that?
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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This week my nutty college professors:
(1) 2-hour lecture yesterday that USA must kill millions of Arabs in a dozen of wars because they did 9/11. This from a jewish/moslem TV professor who carried an AK47 in Beriut Lebannon for 6 years. I don't know how many Arabs he actually killed, but he really hates all Moslems and Islam, but loves jews and Israel. He said it's ok for reporters to hate Ron Paul and cheat him out of news coverage because Paul is the only candidate wanting to end all the wars. This was a class on "media ethics".
(2) Another TV professor said he might quit halfway through the semester, he's tired of training his replacements in business, none of the class will ever get a job. "Review for the midterm exam consists of asking me questions. I refuse to answer any questions."
(3) Another professor gave me a zero grade because he "hates to grade homework" and I "turned in too many photographs."
(4) Last semester, another TV professor bragged he personally killed 50,000 dogs and cats, so far.
But if they make tenure they can work 2 hours a week, get paid $150,000/year and never get fired, according to my drooling sis the "Marxist law professor" today.
God save America...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Its just that the rest of us feel there is far more in common with you and Santorum. Your agreement is not required.
What the rest of you feel and what actually happens aren't always similar.
That's okay, Rappy. We know you don't get it
Actually, what I don't " get " is the false premise that so many on here want to box me into , and dictate my replies to that which THEY want to talk about, while they ignore the point I was initially making.
Yeah, sorry. Not going to play your reindeer games.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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All those posts ... Doesn't little Rappy have a job? Or a life? Hmm. Maybe not.
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Hello,
I think a lot of us post here often. Doesn't Mr. Raptor do things worthy of legitimate complaint?
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Wow PN, which college are you going to?
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Sorry Auraptor, I'm back, ready for our duel?
Quote:
And what's with the " 100% Libertarian " remark ?
I believe you've misunderstood. We're not testing who IS more Libertarian. I don't claim to be Libertarian (as you don't). I'm no fan of Libertarianism. But you suggested I don't understand it, as someone living in Britain. I said I understand it better than you.
And so I challenged you to a duel: we'll both take the online test and answer the questions according to how we think a pure Libertarian would answer. And the person that gets the higher Libertarian score obviously understands Libertarianism better.
Understand? I'll start the duelling thread.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Wow PN, which college are you going to?
The one run by the invisible men standing in the corner of his padded cell.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Hee, hee, hee; good one, Nick.Quote:
As to the amount of time A.U. spends here, amazing, isn't it? I don't think any other single person is here as much, so does he have a job? Who knows...given he can be anything he wants, he can have any JOB he wants to say he has, as can we all. But yeah, he sure is here tons...!
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