"Racism is dead in America." Bullshit

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 19:02
VIEWED: 28896
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NIKI2

Friday, March 16, 2012 7:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Trayvon a 17 year old African American boy was shot in a gated community where his father lives in Florida. He was shot by a self-appointed White Community Watch Captain who was walking around with a gun. Zimmerman the community watch person decided Trayvon looked suspicious. All the boy had was candy and a drink. He was not bothering anyone. He was simply walking from the store to his father's house. So we have to ask ourselves what about the boy made him "look" suspicious? Zimmerman approached the boy after calling the police and the police telling him not to follow the boy.

Disregarding the police Zimmerman approached the boy with a gun and the boy attempted to defend himself. Now Zimmerman who weighed about 100 pounds more than the boy and had a gun is claimng self defense. He shot and killed this innocent boy. The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-761553?hpt=hp_bn2

Nobody's posted about this one, perhaps because it represents a common enough occurrence that we don't pay much attention. But I've been following it, and it's not only outrageous, it's another example of the fact that racisim isn't only alive and well in America, it's allowed.

People on the right keep bitching about the left "playing the race card". It's not a card, it's a reality, and denying it is a political ploy, nothing else.

Quote:
Many claim that racism served as a motivation in the shooting. 'It points to what researchers have termed unconscious racism,' she said. 'People are not even aware of their biases. The fact that people identify with the shooter over a murdered child is disturbing.' Same

It's a lot more than "disturbing" to me, it's horrific. Will this ever change? Not until people stop claiming that "racism is dead in America".

ANTHONYT

Friday, March 16, 2012 7:54 PM (P)

Hello,

This is terrible.

Even if we imagine that the perpetrator is a hard-core racist, I find the story shocking.

This is some wrong-thinking vigilante B.S. with a firearm. You can't just go around hunting human beings because you feel empowered with a firearm in your hand. Jesus.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

STORYMARK

Friday, March 16, 2012 8:10 PM (P)

Could be racism, could just be some idiot too eager to use his gun.

I believe we have a member here (who thankfully rarely posts anymore) who is just that type - looking for a reason.

Spoon!

STORYMARK

Friday, March 16, 2012 8:13 PM (P)

And, not to distract from the article, on the broader topic of this thread - if racism was really dead - this wouldn't be a hot selling bumper sticker:

Spoon!

NIKI2

Friday, March 16, 2012 11:57 PM (P)

Quote:
You can't just go around hunting human beings because you feel empowered with a firearm in your hand.

Apparently you still CAN, in America! The article, by the way, was written by a young black girl.

There's more to the story; if you checked it all, you'd see it's pretty obviously that a black kid was walking in a gated community at night...and you know how THAT goes!

Jaysus...what state was that bumper sticker in?!?! I know it weren't California...guess who'd be lynched?

OONJERAH

Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:13 AM (P)

You can still use that bumper sticker in Placerville, CA. Just don't leave the county.
BTW, we do have black people living here now ... only a few brave ones.

NIKI2

Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:12 PM (P)

Wow...well, that IS redneck country to a degree. If you ignore all the yuppies taking root, that is! I'm amazed. But then, there are places even in CA where these things still abound.

I drive through Placerville every time I go up to visit Paula...I think it's neat! Do you live in Placerville itself, or somewhere else in Placer County? If you're right there in town or around, I'd love to meet next time I go up (Paula's JUST on the East side of the Sierras). You get any snow from that last blast? It was warm here and one of the Bay Area Mushers (who I run with down here) was complaining that the snow fell and disappeared the same day from that last storm. Hope they get snow so they can get some real mushing in, they've all been grousing this year (so has Paula!).

I envy you Placerville. I consider it hitting the FIRST of the mountains...up until then it's just more Saccamenna highway. Neat place; I take the Mormon Immigrant Trail down sometimes--nice countryside.

We got POUNDED down here--Monsoon-like, the Outback barely survived and I had to re-attach some of its anchors. Thank goodness the rain had let up when I did...and I did because I went to check and found a HUGE bubble of water sitting right over the head of my bed! Tarp anchor had come loose on the other end and tarp was just sliiiiiding over from the weight of the water. Eeep! All is well today, tho' you can't see out any of the windows in the house for the moisture! Basement flooded, but that's predictable.

Anyone else get snow? Or survive the deluge?

Not to thread jack or anything...

KPO

Saturday, March 17, 2012 4:41 PM (P)

I caught this story on Anderson Cooper. And yes, it stinks. It's the police action (or non-action) that worries me most.

Quote:
The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense.

It astonishes me that a man can stalk and harrass a man going about his business, provoke an altercation, and then shoot him and claim self-defense, no questions asked. The US self-defence laws (or the application of them?) seem bizarre to me.

Whether or not the shooting/initial harrassment was racially motivated, I can't help but think that the police non-action WAS. If it was a white kid lying on the ground is there any chance that the shooter would've been released on the spot?

It's not personal. It's just war.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, March 17, 2012 5:54 PM (P)

Hello,

I am very curious as to what deadly weapon or life-threatening damage this victim wielded or caused to make the police side with the perpetrator.

And if none? Why on Earth isn't this being pursued as a possible crime?

There have been legitimate self-defense scenarios that have been much more vigorously investigated than this farce.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:05 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Whether or not the shooting/initial harrassment was racially motivated, I can't help but think that the police non-action WAS. If it was a white kid lying on the ground is there any chance that the shooter would've been released on the spot?

Nope, and I find that offensive as hell - he went and PROVOKED a confrontation, despite being advised not to, which resulted in a needless fatality.
And one which factually he had no business doin regardless - someone walkin down the street with a pop and candy is zero threat, someone even BLATANTLY casing your site with a pop and candy is zero threat so long as they are under observation, so why approach and start something for no reason ?

Mind you, this is why I don't get on well with other security specialists, they got too much of that fuckin cartman-attitude going on and not half enough restraint, and many of em have anger-emotion-ego issues which have precluded a career in law enforcement or military, and often as not those who are former LEO or military are WORSE.
For our interview policy, either one of those things is a -50 up front (-100 being a no-hire) cause they're just flat incapable of behaving themselves like a human being.

And that most of all, is THE most important part of being a good guard.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

KWICKO

Sunday, March 18, 2012 1:02 AM (P)

I'm not convinced that this was purely a racial thing, but I'm not convinced either that race played no part. It does indeed sound like this guy was wound too tight and just looking for someone to give him a reason, ANY reason, and now an innocent kid is dead for no good goddam reason.

OPPYH

Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Wow...well, that IS redneck country to a degree. If you ignore all the yuppies taking root, that is!

Rednecks, and yuppies?

Typical white people.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

OONJERAH

Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:55 AM (P)

I wonder if the people of Sanford, FL, will be able to maintain calm.

"More than 314,125 people have signed one petition on the Change.org website. Some
say the handling of the case comes on the heels of a string of racially charged incidents
that have further strained relations between the black community and the police."

Petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-tr
ayvon-martin

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:57 AM (P)

You know, one thing I like about this township is just how determinedly NON-racist it is in spite of so many transplanted hillbillies that you can actually get moonshine and live chickens in the neighborhood...

We got all kinds here, and for the most part NOBODY CARES, race, sexuality, nobody gives a damn - save a few serious wackjobs (the ones that showed up to support Herman Cain cause hate-radio told em to and couldn't wrap their brain around him being black) out in the backwoods...
And while there's not quite that much religious tolerance, after what I did to them freakin Baptists after Wendy put one in the trauma ward, there's at least a certain detente and turf-respect.

But for the most part around here, there's so little intolerance you'd hardly ever even notice it unless you were really lookin hard to find some.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NIKI2

Sunday, March 18, 2012 7:41 PM (P)

I agree KPO, the police non-action pisses me off, too. Hell, if a 911 call goes out for spousal abuse, the guy pretty much gets arrested whether there's proof or not if the woman wants to press charges! He should at the very least have been arrested for discharging a firearm, until they could figure out what happened.

Frem, interestingly enough we don't have much, if any, racism here either. There's a tunnel you have to go through just North of the Golden Gate, and the joke used to be that it was a "Caucasian-test" tunnel, because Marin was so white-white. But now we've got every color/race imaginable and you don't hear shit about prejudice. I'm sure some resent the Hispanic guys who stand/sit along certain roads hoping to find work, but you don't hear about it. Most of the nannies are Hispanic, but they're not treated like the "servants" you see blacks and others treated in the movies and TV...in fact quite the opposite. Which in some cases is reverse-racism, of course.

There was an old movie we used to get a kick out of, "Serial"--it got little play but became a cult favorite for those of us who remember the '70s, and I love it. It's satire, of course, but not THAT far off the mark. A maid is encouraged to become part of the party, for example, and asked her views on everything. Martin Mull, Tuesday Weld, Bill Macy and even Tommy Smothers. "You-ness. Me-ness. Us-ness. We-ness", cults, lentil loaves, EST, a wedding on the mountain joining two people into "oneness", healing crystals, hot tubs, a boss who turns out to be part of a gay biker gang, it doesn't miss any of the stereotypes! AND some reality--I caught in a review "Who wouldn't want to ride their bike to the Ferry to get to work daily?" Ooops...that's what my husband does! Yup, the epitome of Crazy California...but at least we avoid racism in its uglier forms!

OONJERAH

Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:48 PM (P)

Niki, I sent you a PM. This would arrive by eMail, yes?
If your eMail is too full to find everything, send me one, too.
I will see it.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, March 18, 2012 10:29 PM (P)

“This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.”

So spewed the attackers of Melissa Coon’s 13-year-old son, as they doused him with gasoline and set him alight.

Police, they say, are “investigating” whether this is a hate crime.

Yes, and I’m investigating whether the media is biased and if hate-crime law is applied equally. I’ll get back to you on that — in about two paragraphs.

The attack on the boy took place on the east side of Kansas City, Missouri. Fox 4 Kansas City provides some (sanitized) details, writing, “The victim is a student at East High School and regularly walks home after class. When he reached his porch, two older teens grabbed him, pinned his arms behind his back and then poured gas from a gas can on the boy. They then set the boy on fire.”

Thankfully, the teen victim had the presence of mind to pull his shirt up over his head and snuff out the flames. He was treated at Children’s Mercy hospital, having suffered first-degree burns to his face and head. And police said they were concerned about possible damage to his eyes and lungs.

The concern, however, isn’t translating into national media coverage — or honest coverage anywhere.

Of course, if you scrutinize the few local outlets reporting the story and cut and paste, you can piece the picture together. The Fox article I excerpted above provides only the vaguest hint of the attack’s racial nature by quoting Mrs. Coon as saying that her family was told “it’s a hate crime.” KCTV 5 did a bit better, reporting that the victim was white and the assailants black; however, while they quoted the attackers as stating “This is what you get,” for some reason they omitted the “white boy” part. Then there was KMBC.com, which presented the latter but neglected to explicitly identify the race of the criminals, leaving the reader to wonder if the attackers were self-hating Norwegian immigrants. But I’ve played the game and figured out that Colonel Mustard did it in the library with the candlestick.

But we’ve seen this bias before. It’s much as when Muslims rioted in France a couple of years ago and burned thousands of cars, and the media reported the rioters as “youths.” Yes, just teen angst, I suppose.

Some may say that the media are reluctant to stir up racial unrest, but this never seems to stop them when the races of the victim and attackers are reversed. Could you imagine the hue and cry if two older white teenagers had set an innocent black child alight while saying, “You get what you deserve, black boy”? The headlines coast to coast would be cast in neon, and the media would love it — it would give them another chance to agitate for more hate-crime legislation.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/opinion/selwyn-duke/11046-teen-set-on-fi
re-in-racial-attack-media-silent

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

NIKI2

Sunday, March 18, 2012 10:43 PM (P)

Oonj, hasn't arrived yet. Sometimes they take time...and yes, it comes via email.

OONJERAH

Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:49 PM (P)

"Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'"
Feb 28 - Mar 2, 6 articles listed on Google News.
Mar 4 - Mar 5, 10 more articles.

No, it was not a media storm.

My Opinion: Hate crimes are common. Hate crimes against Jews, Muslims, Latinos AND Blacks usually
get only a small burst of local coverage, even if they result in the victim's death.

It's good that such horrors occasionally make bigger news.

ETA: I don't see Trayvon Martin's killing as a typical hate crime. More of a sick wannabe-cop's ego gone mad.
Zimmerman may see himself as a hero: He saved the neighborhood from a suspicious looking lad, up to no good.

CAVETROLL

Monday, March 19, 2012 4:00 PM (P)

From ABC's article, emphasis mine;

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watchman-allegedly-shot-trayvon-
martin-wanted-cop/story?id=15949879

Quote:

...Sanford, Fla., Police Chief Billy Lee said Zimmerman asserts he shot Martin out of self-defense.

"Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him," Lee said last Tuesday.

Martin had been staying at his father's girlfriend's house and stepped out. On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community, Martin was spotted by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime, Lee said.

Witnesses told ABC News a fistfight broke out and, at one point, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

Florida Teen Shot: Why Isn't Shooter in Jail? Watch Video

Trayvon Martin's Family Calls for Justice Watch Video

Trayvon Martin Neighborhood Watch Shooting Watch Video
Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

Brown, along with several other residents, heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.

An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.

Zimmerman's documented actions did not break the law. The fact that he was bleeding after a witness described them fighting gives legitimacy to Zimmerman's decision to use deadly force under Florida's Castle doctrine. Nothing about this indicates it was racially motivated.

Martin on the left and Zimmerman on the right.

NIKI2

Monday, March 19, 2012 4:23 PM (P)

I agree, Oonj, and certainly people of ALL color (including Caucasian) have been the victims of racial hatred. After reading the above article, and finding this:

Quote:
It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.

It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.

He spotted a young black teenager wearing a sweatshirt, with the hood draped over his head. Mr. Zimmerman, a 28-year-old Hispanic man, trailed him a bit. Then he called 911, the first of seven calls from Mr. Zimmerman and panicked neighbors that begin to flesh out the details in the death of Trayvon Martin, 17, whom Mr. Zimmerman shot. The police released the recordings to local reporters late Friday night after nearly three weeks of pressure from Trayvon’s parents and their supporters.

The 911 calls from a gated community in Sanford, north of Orlando, culminate with a faint voice in the distance crying and pleading for help. A gunshot is heard, and then silence. Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he had shot Trayvon in self-defense, after the two got into a fight and Mr. Zimmerman wound up on the ground. There have been no arrests in the case. The unarmed teenager, who carried Skittles and a can of iced tea, was walking to the home of his father’s girlfriend from a convenience store.

“This guy looks like he’s up to no good or on drugs or something,” Mr. Zimmerman told dispatch, in his initial call. “It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” Mr. Zimmerman continued: “He’s here now just looking at all the houses. Now he’s just staring at me.” Then he added a second later: “He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Can you get an officer over here?”

Then he got out of the car with his licensed 9-millimeter pistol, and a worried dispatcher asked: “Are you following him? O.K., you don’t need to do that.”

At that point, Trayvon ran, and Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow. The dispatcher told him to wait for the police. A suggestion was made that Mr. Zimmerman and the police should meet by a mailbox. But then Mr. Zimmerman changed his mind. “Actually, could you have him call me and I’ll tell him where I’m at.”

The next spate of calls came from anxious neighbors. A faint cry for help and terrified howls can be heard in the background. Neighbors said they had seen two men nearby in the dark. They reported hearing a gunshot.

“A guy yelled, ‘Help! Oh, my God,’ ” one man told the dispatcher. “There is two guys in the backyard with flashlights. There is a black guy down and it looks like he’s been shot and he’s dead.”

One caller said: “I think they’re yelling help, but I don’t know. Send someone quickly, please.”

It is not clear from the audio whether one or two shots was fired. And, with the voice muffled in the distance, it is difficult to know which of the two men is crying out for help.

The police told The Orlando Sentinel on Friday that they believed the voice crying for help was Mr. Zimmerman’s. They say that prosecutors have told them they do not have enough evidence to dispute Mr. Zimmerman’s claim that he acted in self-defense. Florida affords people who act in self-defense greater protection than most states, allowing them to take action if they have a reasonable fear that their lives are in peril. The case was turned over to the state attorney’s office last week.

“That is the circumstance we are dealing with: If we arrest, we open ourselves to a lawsuit,” Sgt. Dave Morgenstern, a spokesman with the Sanford Police Department, said. “I would ha

WULFENSTAR

Monday, March 19, 2012 4:45 PM (P)

If you've got 50 to 100 lbs on a KID, you don't need to go to the gun.

Unless he pulls a gun or a knife first.

Truth is, we don't know what happened.

Funny how quick people backpedaled on the "Raciss" call when they found out it was Hispanic vs Black tho...

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

MAL4PREZ

Monday, March 19, 2012 5:16 PM (P)

This is so fucked up. I do blame the guy with the gun, absolutely, and these laws. I don't hear anyone in these articles talking about the KID's right to defend himself. The people defending the shooter (not on this thread, but on other news sites) seem to think the big guy with the gun, who invited himself into this situation against express recommendations from the police, had a right to use deadly force. But a teen getting stalked by someone much bigger than him didn't have a right to bunch his attacker in the nose?

Bullshit. The shooter invited himself into the situation. He created it, and an innocent kid is now dead. That is a crime.

I'm glad there are protests going on about this, and I hope the FBI does step in. And I hope other wanna-be heroes pay attention. This is the likely outcome of thinking you should step in with your big gun and save the world.

I wish I could see inside Zimmerman's head, to see how he's justifying this. I wonder if he's re-constructed the whole thing so it's not his fault, rather than accepting guilt. I wonder if he's capable of thinking of himself as a bully who killed an innocent child.

BTW: I would add that I think it is possible that racism was involved. If it'd been a white kid walking down the street, would it have happened the same? After reading the articles here though, I can't fault the police. They seem to be stuck because of the laws.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

KWICKO

Monday, March 19, 2012 5:33 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
This is so fucked up. I do blame the guy with the gun, absolutely, and these laws. I don't hear anyone in these articles talking about the KID's right to defend himself. The people defending the shooter (not on this thread, but on other news sites) seem to think the big guy with the gun, who invited himself into this situation against express recommendations from the police, had a right to use deadly force. But a teen getting stalked by someone much bigger than him didn't have a right to bunch his attacker in the nose?

Bullshit. The shooter invited himself into the situation. He created it, and an innocent kid is now dead. That is a crime.

I'm glad there are protests going on about this, and I hope the FBI does step in. And I hope other wanna-be heroes pay attention. This is the likely outcome of thinking you should step in with your big gun and save the world.

I wish I could see inside Zimmerman's head, to see how he's justifying this. I wonder if he's re-constructed the whole thing so it's not his fault, rather than accepting guilt. I wonder if he's capable of thinking of himself as a bully who killed an innocent child.

BTW: I would add that I think it is possible that racism was involved. If it'd been a white kid walking down the street, would it have happened the same? After reading the articles here though, I can't fault the police. They seem to be stuck because of the laws.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

That pretty well sums it up for me as well.

What if the kid had had a gun, and used it to defend himself from a stalker who got in his face and confronted him? How would the news be reporting it in that case? "Armed youth guns down neighborhood watch captain"?

And Wulfie? Why do you imagine that Hispanics can't be racist? Where DO you get these nonsensical ideas that still seem to fill your head? And is Zimmerman Hispanic? I heard he was multiracial, which makes him sound like pretty much any other American, really.

The race issue comes into play in this way: What would have happened if the kid were clearly a white kid just walking in the rain with a soda and some candy? Would anyone have felt the need to not only follow him, but to confront him and square off against him?

Or did that happen mainly because he was black?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

KPO

Monday, March 19, 2012 7:36 PM (P)

Quote:
Zimmerman's documented actions did not break the law. The fact that he was bleeding after a witness described them fighting gives legitimacy to Zimmerman's decision to use deadly force under Florida's Castle doctrine.

I don't see where the Castle doctrine comes into this as Trayvon Martin was not trespassing - he had every right to be out walking where he was.

Zimmerman's only defence is ordinary self-defence. Self-defence if I'm not mistaken requires that you reasonably consider yourself to be in danger of death, or serious injury. Zimmerman was bleeding on the back of his head and had a nosebleed as a result of the altercation. But he wasn't admitted to hospital, and he didn't suffer from concussion or require stitches. And of course he outweighed his opponent by 100lbs. The idea that he had reason to fear for his life is pretty dubious.

If Zimmerman can legitimately claim self-defence here then anyone anywhere who is involved in a scuffle can draw a gun and use deadly force. So I can start a fight with someone, get knocked on my butt, draw a gun and shoot the person. And when the police turn up I just have to utter the magic words 'self-defence' and then I'll be released on the spot?

More from your cited article that's worth noting:

Quote:
But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective peppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News.

It's not personal. It's just war.

RIONAEIRE

Monday, March 19, 2012 7:51 PM (P)

Its an awful situation any way you look at it. I don't know whether it was racially motivated or not, I don't think we have enough info to determine that, sometimes on the surface something looks one way and then when you find out more its more complex than that. But it does sound like Zimmerman has some sort of wannabe hero complex, I think mentioning it to the police should have been sufficient, at the most, that probably wasn't even necessary because he was just walking around not harming anyone. In middle school I had a friend who liked to go outside and lay in the rain just for fun in the summertime, maybe the kid just likes the rain.:(((((

Oh yeah, and what happened with Wendy and the Baptist? Was s/he tresspassing while she was on shift? I know she's a good fighter.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

OONJERAH

Monday, March 19, 2012 9:42 PM (P)

Security guard's job: Observe & report.
Kid walking on sidewalk = not illegal.
Zimmerman disregarded advice of dispatch.
News I've read paints Zimmerman as a squirrel; the dispatch tapes verify it.
True, I didn't scan thru the whole media storm looking for a headline: Zimmerman is a fine fellow.

Two things I wonder: Did Zimmerman identify himself to Martin?
Who initiated the assault?

1KIKI

Monday, March 19, 2012 9:59 PM (P)

I'm hoping someone can answer this question: if I decide to murder someone, and I have a gun, and I wait till there is no one else around and then shoot that person - can I get away with it as long as I claim self-defense? B/c as long as there are no witnesses to say any different, the police can't really assume it was murder. Right? It seems like that's what it boils down to in this case.

OONJERAH

Monday, March 19, 2012 10:02 PM (P)

Not entirely, Kiki. You gotta beat yourself up beforehand.

1KIKI

Monday, March 19, 2012 10:10 PM (P)

OK - I didn't see that part of the story.

But, ah - what if Trayvon was defending himself against a nut with a gun who accosted him on the street? In fact, I don't buy the idea that Trayvon started it. After all, Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon, not the other way around. I think a reasonable case could be made for manslaughter. B/c it still comes down to having to take the word of the only witness since the other witness was killed - by the first witness.

1KIKI

Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 PM (P)

Oh yeah, and someone please remind me again how we'd all be so much safer if we were just all armed.

Makes me think about nuclear weapons - in Zimmerman's case the problem was that the firepower exceeded the brain power. Maybe that's humanity's problem as well. We just can't REALLY be trusted with our technology.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, March 19, 2012 10:19 PM (P)

People who have never been exposed to real life amuse me.

I'm getting a kick out of those who live in their safe, little worlds talking about things they have no understanding of.

Yes. Lets make a law that has all guns be illegal. That will work. Especially when I hear someone kicking in my door. I'll grab a cricket bat (providing those arn't against the law) and defend myself and my family.

We can be just like Britain. Makes sense.

lol

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

1KIKI

Monday, March 19, 2012 10:23 PM (P)

Of course Wulfie. No one else has ever been attacked, or lived in a dangerous neighborhood. Yes, yes, yes. Sing your brain to sleep with your little lullaby and dream your little dreams. Sleep, sleeeeep.

KWICKO

Monday, March 19, 2012 11:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
People who have never been exposed to real life amuse me.

So you're amused by yourself, eh? Small things please small minds, it seems.

Quote:

I'm getting a kick out of those who live in their safe, little worlds talking about things they have no understanding of.

Yes. Lets make a law that has all guns be illegal. That will work. Especially when I hear someone kicking in my door. I'll grab a cricket bat (providing those arn't against the law) and defend myself and my family.

So that's quite a logical leap you've made their, son. From "Hey, maybe we should investigate a guy who blows a kid away for no good reason" to "Let's make a law that has all guns be illegal". You can go from zero to dumb-ass in 2.3 seconds, can't you?

Quote:

We can be just like Britain. Makes sense.

We'd certainly have fewer gun deaths and gun murders.

OONJERAH

Monday, March 19, 2012 11:34 PM (P)

Niki's initial post:
"He was shot by a self-appointed White Community Watch Captain who was walking around with a gun."

Today from MailOnline:
"The devastated mother of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who was fatally shot last month by a Neighbourhood Watch volunteer, is saying the attack was racially motivated." => http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117219/Trayvon-Martin-shootin
g-Mother-claims-George-Zimmerman-killed-son-skin-colour.html#ixzz1pbknArW1

It's been nagging at me: Who hired this turkey? Community Watch? So the people in the gated community
asked him to do this job? Are any of them speaking up?

ETA: Yes, they are, one is. From the link above:

"According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman volunteered as chief watchman at the Retreat of Twin Lakes Townhomes
after its homeowners association decided to jumpstart the programme following a spate of burglaries.
Licensed to carry a concealed firearm and a student of criminal justice, neighbours told the newspaper Zimmerman took
nightly patrols while walking his dog, and was passionate about his duty.

Records acquired by the Herald show his self-appointment led to a series of calls to police. From January 1, 2011 to
February 26, 2012, Zimmerman reportedly phoned authorities 46 times - to 'report disturbances, break-ins, windows
left open and other incidents'.

His calls account for some of the 402 made to police from the 260-unit complex, according to the Herald.
Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association, credits him with solving crime in the area. 'He once caught
a thief and an arrest was made,' she said, adding that he helped to solve 'a lot' of crimes."

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:13 AM (P)

Not everyone in the biz is trustworthy, and FAR too many are in it because their mental, ego and attitude issues bounced them out of military or police careers - what I call cartmans cause they got control issues which escalate every situation into dangerous potentials.
And one of the most dangerous are wanna-bes like this guy, how much you wanna bet he has a fake badge and a blue or red strobe in his car and various police-type weapony lying around his place ?
BELIEVE ME, I know the freakin type - I throw enough of em out of interviews...

Now, mind you, I don't often throw down the credentials card - I've done it maybe ONCE before in all this time, but imma throw it here, cause frankly what I got to say kinda requires it.
Yeah verily, I been doin this job off and on to some degree for twenty freakin YEARS and my training and experience includes military, professional and a whole damn lot of practical from both sides of the fence, okay ?

So, you got a black man, young guy, waltzing through your neighborhood with his hoodie up, looking around, which TO A COMPLETE FREAKING IDIOT, might look a little suspicious - mind you it's raining, and he's likely looking for alternate routes around puddles and low spots to avoid getting his shoes wet.
Now it's within basic procedure to keep an EYE on him, keep him in sight, and if you feel some desperate need to move him along since he hasn't displayed any OBVIOUS behavior the most you should do is crowd him a little, just linger nearby within his sight and unnerve him into moving along, while staying far enough out of reach there's no point in opening conversation or initiating confrontation.
Or alternatively, depending on his response to seeing you (for example if he offers a friendly smile and wave to acknowledge you) you can walk WITH him, chat him up a little while telling him - yeah well if I'm with you the little old ladies around here ain't gonna freak out, so I'm saving us both hassle, yanno?
AND you can make local contacts out of that who will let you know things, instead of making enemies.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/deescalation.htm

What this moron did, and I know he did, is approach him and immediately start giving him ATTITUDE, the third degree, which even if he DIDN'T throw race in the mix (common enough, but lets not assume it) is enough to really piss someone off, and maybe the kid was a bit scared of what might HAPPEN to him out in the nethers of suburbia all alone with some armed creep (who probably did not identify himself AND got in the boys personal space) and decided to take off, at which point said armed creep reflexively GRABBED him.
And then shit went rodeo.

And then mister bully boy ego stroker can't put his ass where his mouth is and starts getting his butt kicked, so he starts whining like a bitch, and the boy in the middle of kicking his ass backs off, at which point his EGO requires the gesture, and the fucker murders him.
Which is EXACTLY what happened.

Which is why I do not hire these pissants.
Take a good long look, people....

Fucking it up completely - how to get attacked
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/get_attacked.htm

Yup, you're the bad guy, PREDATORY violence
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violencetypesPRED.htm

There WAS a crime, yours - the Five Stages of fucking it up.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

This, particularly.

INTENT: This armed goon took it upon himself in violation of common sense, good advice, general procedure, to APPROACH and CONFRONT his intended victim - his EGO required it.

INTERVIEW: Fair bet the goon here assured himself that the kid was no PHYSICAL threat (or so he thought) before approaching, or he wouldn't have - cause again, I know these types.

POSITIONING: He sure as hell did this, approached, confronted, and provoked.

ATTACK: Force, threat of force, perceived-authority-bullying, that passive-aggressive shit-picking that such pumped up authoritarian punks engage in, followed by the physical action of grabb

OONJERAH

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:26 AM (P)

I agree with you, Frem. I believe your description of events is spot on.
But I cannot say so, because I did not witness it.

ETA: Introspection is a very good tool, tho few enough use it. To start,
One must recognize the limits of One's own Ego, and shut the thing down for a bit.

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 5:10 AM (P)

FRem you know more about security, and many other things, than I ever will, so if you say it happened like that then you're more than likely right.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

OONJERAH

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:47 AM (P)

AP - Feds to investigate fatal shooting of Fla. teen =>
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ivYiyG1LXR4Nf_kp9EJR
DOzW0fmQ?docId=878cd97997034f908ffcd75053aa56f7

CAVETROLL

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:29 PM (P)

Castle doctrine does apply under Florida law. If you feel threatened by the actions of another you are free to use deadly force under their law. There has already been a case where teenagers were harassing an older man who lived alone. The last time they pulled their pranks on him they chose to pound on his front door in the middle of the night. He shot through the door without investigating. One of the teens died and one was seriously wounded. This was a no bill. No crime was committed.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman was right. I am saying that from the available evidence, no crime was committed. Playing a racist angle or the feds investigating, presumably under a civil rights angle, is all smoke and mirrors. Feeling that "this is wrong so we're going to make it a crime" undermines the criminal justice system.

Until more witnesses come forward or evidence is produced and we can get a better insight into what transpired between Martin and Zimmerman, we have to concede that we are ignorant and leave Zimmerman alone. "Better that 100 guilty go free than an innocent be condemned." Ring any bells?

But there's an almost sure slam dunk on a civil case.

NIKI2

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:25 PM (P)

Yup, hope to see a civil case right soon. And yes, if someone shot someone on the street late at night, no witnesses, a couple of bruises, how DO the police determine it wasn't self-defense?

I'm going by a few things:

This guy VOLUNTEERED to be watch captain, had a background in criminal law (which means he's well aware of that particular law giving him the right to shoot someone), and had made a hellofalot of 911 calls. This tells me something about him.

The idea there's Hispanic v Black makes it unimportant is asinine. As people learn more, their opinions are bound to change, simple as that.

The kid was an "A-B student" and had only one incident at school against him, a minor one.

Zimmerman had a past record of violence, which the police omitted at first:

Quote:
The father of the teen, Tracy Martin, was told by police that Zimmerman had a ‘squeaky-clean’ record and that is why he has not been charged yet. Zimmerman was arrested back in 2005 in Orange County for resisting arrest using violence and battery on a law enforcement officer, according to public records. The records were found with the Orange County Clerk of Courts. The charges were filed in July of 2005 but were dropped.

“They just lied to the family,” Crump said. “They just couldn’t see why [Zimmerman] would do anything wrong or be violent. But not only do you know the guy killed this kid, because he admitted to it, you knew that he has a propensity for violence because of his past record.”

Tracy Martin said in an interview last week that he was told by officers that:

“They respected [Zimmerman's] background, that he studied criminal justice for four years and that he was squeaky clean. My question to them was, did they run my child’s background check? They said yes. I asked them what they came up with, and they said nothing. http://www.jdjournal.com/2012/03/12/neighborhood-watch-captain-involve
d-in-shooting-has-violent-past/ more that comes out, I'm starting to see a guy who might well have a bit of a hair trigger; dunno why the charges were dropped, but from what the cops in Florida said, maybe the police in the other incident respected him too, or he apologized, or something. But it's THERE and shows he could be aggressive, even toward cops.

The facts BEFORE the shooting are pretty clear. The kid was carrying candy, etc., and had just come back from the convenience store. Zimmerman called him in, was told not to follow him, followed him in his car and then on foot.

As to racism, they say Zimmerman has friends and relatives who are Black. That doesn't mean that a Black kid, walking through a gated community at night, wearing a hoodie, wouldn't be more suspicious to any "community watch" person than a white kid. That he PUSHED the situation speaks to me, and I just don't buy a kid who's got a clean record, isn't doing anything, and is much smaller, starting something as easily as a guy who WANTS to be in a position of authority, makes many calls to 911, is interested in criminal law and has at least one previous incident of being violent to an authority figure.

That's where I stand until and unless some further information comes out.

NIKI2

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:49 PM (P)

Actually, we've not discussed this aspect of it:

Quote:
Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee has characterized Martin as the aggressor, based on the police department’s investigation. In an interview published by the Miami Herald, Lee asked rhetorically, “If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”

Actually, in Florida, it might be.

Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger. Section 776.013 provides:

“A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

Trayvon Martin was a teenaged boy who was walking home from a convenience store. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity. He was in a place where he had a right to be – near the home of his father’s fiancée. George Zimmerman followed him, even after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. Zimmerman left his vehicle holding a loaded gun and began pursuing Martin on foot. It is plausible to infer that Zimmerman, not Martin, initiated the attack. The tapes indicate that Zimmerman may have been the aggressor in initiating contact with Martin. Assuming the published reports are true, Martin, not Zimmerman, was exercising his lawful right to “stand his ground and meet force with force” by engaging in an altercation with Zimmerman.

By questioning why Martin didn’t simply stop and answer Zimmerman’s questions, and characterizing Martin as the aggressor, Sanford Police Department Chief Bill Lee Jr. appears to have assessed the Martin case using the standards that apply to law enforcement officers. This is wrong. Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.

Being the local neighborhood watch captain does not elevate him to that status. Nor was Zimmerman asked by any law enforcement officer to assist in detaining Martin – in fact, he was specifically told not to follow Martin. Zimmerman is entitled to none of the presumptions available to law enforcement officers under Florida law. The presumptions of acting in good faith that are afforded to law enforcement officers do not apply to Zimmerman.

If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense. Under Section 776.041, use of force is not justifiable under the statute to a person who initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

“(a) such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”

Neither exception applies to Zimmerman. Martin was armed only with a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea. Zimmerman had a 9mm handgun. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/19/opinion-trayvon-martin-not-g
eorge-zimmerman-was-engaged-in-self-defense/?hpt=hp_t1 makes sense to me.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:59 PM (P)

Well, they're going through the call logs now - and so far they prettymuch support events being much as I described them.

Now Troll brought up the legal presumption of innocence, but honestly that falls since Zimmerman deliberately approached and confronted someone against policy, the advice of the police dispatcher and common sense, and also in regards to it his comment showed quite clearly this was a matter of his ego than any necessity.
I don't see how one could presume "innocence" of an armed goon who violated all of those things to needlessly confront someone, which makes HIM the aggressor in the situation.

From a legal standpoint, the smart thing to do, which prolly wouldn't save him but might mitigate the damage, is to get a decent lawyer, clam up, and refuse to take the stand - and here's why.

Firstoff, a public defender, as I have mentioned before, is a professional dive-taker who's sole intent is to put up just enough of a fight to make the prosecutor look good, in hopes of someday being on that side of the courtroom with the stacked deck - they're NOT on your side, they're selling you out, and if he winds up with an appointed attorney I assure you they will encourage him to be stupid.

See, from a prosecution angle, all you have to do is get this guy on the stand and start poking his fragile ego, and he'll ruin himself, lickety split - and worse, he will WANT to do it, just as his pride and ego forced that confrontation, demanded that he shoot, it will push him to tell his side of the story and "dress it up" in some logically inconsistent way that will allow a prosecutor with even a peanut for a brain (which is most of em) to completely excoriate his ass.
So even if he gets a decent attorney, chances are he will no more listen to them about shutting the fuck up and staying off the stand, than he did the police dispatcher telling him not to pursue.

Really, guys like this, all you have to do is hand them a shovel, you understand ?

Also, in regards to those call logs, I've listened to one of Trayvon's just prior to the incident, and it's abundantly clear he knew he was being followed by someone HE considered creepy and suspicious, and in response tried to lose them - the person on the other end of the line was encouraging him to flee, in fact...
And that call does include the beginning of the incident, and at NO point does Zimmerman identify himself or his intentions before a physical altercation breaks out.

Ergo, events are very likely just as I called em.
And this guy is gonna catch hell for it, as he should.

Sometimes public outrage is the grease the wheels of justice need, and yeah verily from a legal standpoint the presumption of innocence must stand till the issue is decide in court, but it took that public outrage based on some REALLY DAMN OBVIOUS evidence of bad conduct in order to cause it to BE decided in court, instead of brushed off and ignored - and I seriously question your assumptions there Troll, to the point where I flat out question your motives.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 5:35 PM (P)

Oh, and a non-incident from last night I'll relate, just as an example of how things can go right.

I was coming around building five about to hit the last key of the night and file my report and as such was walking at the edge of the complex with the road there, and suddenly for no reason I could immediately determine one of the local cops pulls over the car in front of him.
I keep a loose eye on the situation and punch the last key, then linger near the building within earshot cause I note that the officer in question has stated with the forfeiture-fishing-expedition set of questions prepatory to trying some bullshit much like this...
http://www.theagitator.com/2012/03/15/breakfast-in-collinsville/

And yes, it was a local K-9 officer last night as well - don't you just love it when they use your refusal to allow a search as justification for one ?
Especially since them dogs have been proven utterly unreliable, eh ?

So I linger in hearing range, and quietly pull my camera, but the range and light levels would require me to get closer to use it, which risks needlessly provoking something given that yon badge bearer has not yet exceeded his authority...
But then I notice the cop keeps throwing nervous glances over his left shoulder, mind you they KNOW this is my turf, and when in duty and in uniform I am a total hardass for proper procedure, having torn a strip off them before in regards to letting slide some blatant misconduct by a repossesion service, lying to a resident about how stalking/harrassment is handled, and creeping around private property unwanted scoping for expired tags and such - despite that animosity though there's a certain detente cause I am both very professional and fully aware of how and where my work is different from theirs.
That's come in handy a time or two for them as well as me - and so long as their conduct is equally professional I will back them up to the fullest, and if you need anywhere near here searched for a fleeing perp, missing kid or lost pet, I am your go-to-guy, so there's respect if not affection.

Ergo those nervous glances cue me in that he'd rather I not see what he's up to, unaware that I am already watching from a pool of shadow with excellent visual cover, and so I wait till he looks away to make a note on his clipboard, and slip out into the beam of the floodlights and lean against the building all phony casual like, and he spots me as he takes the drivers license back to the car to run it, and utters a very unprofessional word starting with F...
He brings back the drivers license and registration, and issues them a warning for a (parking) light out and sends them on their merry, then pulls a U-turn in the middle of the street and offers me ye olde digitus impudicus out the window of his SUV, and I give him the ole Red-eye, and nothing comes of it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyelidPullTaunt

Sometimes just HAVING a witness can radically change the dynamics of a situation, you understand ?
If Trayvon had beat feet back to the convenience store, things might not have turned out that way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger.

Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.

If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense.

Yes, yes and yes! I'm glad there are people going after this nonsense. The way Troll would have it, all I have to do is get in someone's face and talk smack until they try to push me out of the way, then I'm free to murder them in "self-defense'.

Frem: I've known public defenders, and I'd kindly ask you to be less blanket-y with those blanket statements. I understand that you have many bad ones in your life, but there are some damned fine people out there trying to do their jobs.

I was going to ask you about the calls, but I just saw the headline. I'm not looking forward to it. I think I'm going to end up even angrier about this.

ETA: OK, I'm feeling a lot less like going easy on the police, after seeing how they "investigated", and what Zimmerman's initial story was. The man lied, and I think he's well on his way to finally getting busted.

"According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman told the police that he had stepped out of his SUV to check the name of the street he was on, and that Trayvon sprang out of nowhere to attack him from behind as he was walking back to his truck. He said he feared for his life and shot Martin in self-defense. That account doesn't easily fit into the narrative cobbled together from what evidence had been made public."

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:04 PM (P)

And here we go...

Quote:
A Black Militia Group Says It Plans To Arrest The Neighborhood Watchman Who Shot A Black Teenager

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-black-militia-group-says-it-plans-to-
arrest-the-neighborhood-watchman-who-shot-trayvon-martin-2012-3#ixzz1pgO2fzYx

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

KPO

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Castle doctrine does apply under Florida law.

From wiki:

Quote:
A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that designates a person's abode (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as a car or place of work) as a place in which the person has certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances attack an intruder without becoming liable to prosecution.

And:

Quote:
The term derives from the historic English common law dictum that "an Englishman's home is his castle".

There was no 'castle' in this case. And Trayvon was not an 'intruder' in any sense.

Quote:
I am saying that from the available evidence, no crime was committed.

A 17 year old, unarmed kid is lying dead on the ground, and the shooter's claim for self-defence is highly dubious (since he started the altercation, and outweighted the kid by 100lbs). Are you saying the police have no right to suspect the shooter, and investigate to find out exactly what happened? That's what they chose not to do. Seemingly, they treated it as an open and shut case where 'the black kid must've been asking for it'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Frem: I've known public defenders, and I'd kindly ask you to be less blanket-y with those blanket statements. I understand that you have many bad ones in your life, but there are some damned fine people out there trying to do their jobs.

Point acknowledged - just that in my experience in several states over many years has indicated a majority of em that way, but I am sure exceptions exist.
I've gotten so pissed off at our local prosecutor for shenanigans I was going to flat out refuse to testify any further and call her on it while on the stand - but the accused copped a plea at the last minute, I *would* have called her out, too, cause she was laughing up her sleve TO ME about privledged information the public defender leaked to her on purpose...
That offended me beyond reason cause there wasn't ANY bloody need for it, being that I caught the lot of them red-handed WITH the goods ON THEIR PERSON - but that's just the way she does things.
The line between good guys and bad guys here is kinda murky most days, so I can be a bit cynical, sure.
Anyhows, them that DO the job deserve full credit Mal4, that I freely give ya.

Quote:
ETA: OK, I'm feeling a lot less like going easy on the police, after seeing how they "investigated", and what Zimmerman's initial story was. The man lied, and I think he's well on his way to finally getting busted.

Yep, called that one straight - all one needs do is hand this guy a shovel, let him run his yap till he sinks himself good and deep, and then fill in the hole...

Again, I know the type, I toss enough of em out on their ear when they get interviewed - ironically they get quite pissed about it, even angry, and I've had to have one removed by force after he made threats and wanted to fight about it... which I mighta gave him were it not for Echo and Becky all but sitting on me.

I don't claim to be "better than", just "smarter than", and even when I ain't, my people are.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:28 PM (P)

Stereotypes don't just happen.

A lot of people have to see a behavior before one is born. Then that behavior has to be reinforced over time for it to be vetted.

Drunk Irish.

Covetous Jew.

Mob Italian.

Bookworm Asian.

Maybe instead of blaming the aftermath of said stereotypes... you should try changing them. (Tho I give a pass to Asians.... getting good grades is not a vice.)

Everyone was all set to jump on this. "WHITE MAN KILLS BLACK BOY!"... and all that entails.

But now that the guy was Hispanic... you backpeddle. Cus God knows, its only ok to cry raciss when the target is white.

When its an "other"... well then. That gets all sorts of complicated, right? Only white people are raciss, right?

Racism does exist. But you might want to look in the mirror first before you start throwing that word around.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

CAVETROLL

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:42 PM (P)

KPO,
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute
&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Section 3 is the applicable statute.

I erred in referring to it as the Castle law. My apologies. The Florida law is called the "Stand Your Ground" law. If threatened you can use deadly force. Don't like the law? Move to Florida and get it changed.

CAVETROLL

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Yes, yes and yes! I'm glad there are people going after this nonsense. The way Troll would have it, all I have to do is get in someone's face and talk smack until they try to push me out of the way, then I'm free to murder them in "self-defense'.

In Florida, yes. However, try not to have witnesses and remember to let him bloody your nose and the back of your head.

CAVETROLL

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:49 PM (P)

Good news, Niki. You were right! Racism is alive and well in the United States!

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-f
ire-tv-station

Quote:

Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'
MEENA HART DUERSON
Sunday, March 04, 2012
A 13-year-old boy who police say was doused with gasoline and lit on fire last week while walking home from school is recovering from first-degree burns to his face and head.

The boy was just two blocks from his home in Kansas City Tuesday when two teenagers began to follow him and then attacked him, his mother, Melissa Coon, said.

Police have described the suspects as black 16-year-olds, while the victim is white.

"We were told it's a hate crime," Coon told KTLA.

I can't wait to hear the howls of outrage and the demands for these two teenager's heads from Niki, KPO, and Anthony.

OONJERAH

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:03 PM (P)

Cave, this thread already knows that, "Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'"

No one really approved of it, I think.
But that kid was clear-headed and saved his own life.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:19 PM (P)

Back in the day, I had a crew hunting me.

White ears earned you a place in the "fam". Nearly took a lead walking home one day. But a kid leaning out the cut doesn't have a really good aim, now do they?

I was 11.

Sorry, I don't really have patience for comfortable, middle class, people screaming raciss.

I actually feel bad for the kid trying to kill me. He probably had no father, no real family, and this was the best he thought he could do.

Glad he missed tho...

ETA: Just b/c Im remembering the bad ol days...

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

OONJERAH

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:28 PM (P)

Glad he missed you, Wulf.

The great thing about Racism is, It's an equal opportunity insanity.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Cave, this thread already knows that, "Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'"

No one really approved of it, I think.
But that kid was clear-headed and saved his own life.

I think only you commented on it.

Was it ignored, because thankfully, no one died, or because it didn't fit the standard template? The one which initially had the story wrong, where it was a WHITE guy who shot the black kid...

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

KWICKO

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:53 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Good news, Niki. You were right! Racism is alive and well in the United States!

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-f
ire-tv-station

Quote:

Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'
MEENA HART DUERSON
Sunday, March 04, 2012
A 13-year-old boy who police say was doused with gasoline and lit on fire last week while walking home from school is recovering from first-degree burns to his face and head.

The boy was just two blocks from his home in Kansas City Tuesday when two teenagers began to follow him and then attacked him, his mother, Melissa Coon, said.

Police have described the suspects as black 16-year-olds, while the victim is white.

"We were told it's a hate crime," Coon told KTLA.

I can't wait to hear the howls of outrage and the demands for these two teenager's heads from Niki, KPO, and Anthony.

Why do you think that those "howls of outrage" are appropriate when a white kid is the victim (and lives), but it's "self defense" when a black kid is killed?

Hell, to hear from some here, this might have been "self defense" by the black kids against the white kid. Doesn't seem to matter if he was younger, smaller, outnumbered or unarmed...

Troll, I'm wondering if you're going to follow the well-established pattern set by Rappy and Wulfie, and tend to express your howls of outrage when only when it's whites who are the victims, and not when it's black people.

KWICKO

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:55 PM (P)

Quote:
Sorry, I don't really have patience for comfortable, middle class, people screaming raciss.

And yet you yourself have screamed it plenty of times here. I guess it's *different* when you do it, right?

KWICKO

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:56 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Yes, yes and yes! I'm glad there are people going after this nonsense. The way Troll would have it, all I have to do is get in someone's face and talk smack until they try to push me out of the way, then I'm free to murder them in "self-defense'.

In Florida, yes. However, try not to have witnesses and remember to let him bloody your nose and the back of your head.

Yeah, next time you pick a fight with a kid a hundred pounds lighter than you, and get your ass handed to you, just murder the other guy and call it self-defense!

OONJERAH

Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:04 PM (P)

Sounds perfectly true.

As long as no witnesses, if killer is also bruised and scratched,
It is now Open Season on People in Florida.

This should include millions of senior citizens living there.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 12:16 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Anyhows, them that DO the job deserve full credit Mal4, that I freely give ya.

Thanks. The only lawyer types I know well work on immigration domestic issues - ie, if an non-citizen gets beat up by her husband, how can she protect herself and her kids? It's a hard job, and the lawyers sure as hell aren't doing it for the money!

OK, that might not officially count as a public defender, but I think it's in the same vein.

You totally called it about Zimmerman. I had a feeling that it went as you said, but you summed it up perfectly. This guy was a time bomb - frightening, not unlike certain other time bombs out there... I wish they would learn from this, but it seems not.

It seems pretty clear from the evidence piling up that Zimmerman will get busted. Boy, if he doesn't, things could get ugly.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 12:44 AM (P)

Well, there's another assumption down - during Zimmermans 911 call he mutters "Fuckin coons", and since he wasn't chasing a raccoon...
Although the "always get away" comment indicates to me it was both racial AND territorial, he didn't like them "on his turf", but that's no excuse neither.

Also, yes, he *WAS* a cop-wannabe, and got turned away or bounced from the idea at one time.
That can go a couple ways, either run off as a hair trigger psycho, which this guy was, can't pass the physical, or want the trappings but don't care to invest the time and effort - s'funny though, so long as you train them right and make the rules abundantly clear, the last two make pretty good guards.
Oh, and a third category - "I wanted to do the right thing, but they're sooo corrupt!", usually idealistic types who wound up storming out of the police academy in disgust.
THOSE guys make *excellent* guards, they're some of the few who can overcome the -50 for police training and/or experience in our interview process.

I am also hearing a lot of whining about the "Stand your ground" law, which this has NOTHING to do with, nor "Castle doctrine", neither one EVEN APPLIES since Zimmerman aggressively pursued a situation he shoulda stayed out of - but yes, you got folks with an anti self-defense agenda spinning it, of course you do, and it's assholes like Zimmerman which give em reason, as well as DIPSHITS who defend assholes like this even when they're clearly in the wrong cause of their OWN racial or partisan issues.
You hear me Wulfie ?
This guy's a murderin punk, and if you're gonna defend him cause YOU got racial issues, all you're doing is pissing all over the right to self-defense by proving those Better-World gun grabbers right.
You think race had shit to do with it in *MY* eyes ?

As Oojie says, equal opportunity insanity, racism - think I've never taken shit for being a whitebread cracker hillbilly ?
You think I ain't never been shot at ?
Unlike you, I don't hold it against everyone of that race, creed or culture, although admittedly I struggle to not have the same attitude against christians - the difference is I *TRY*, and you make no effort, you just try to rationalize and justify, a self-inflicted mental trap which leads right down the path Zimmerman took - you could, and should, learn a LESSON from that you pompous jackass.
But no, you can't bear to look at your own prejudices in the harsh light of truth, so you lie to yourself, well have at it, but don't try selling that bullshit to me.

And no, Zimmerman is NOT gonna walk it off - this is gonna go to grand jury, which it should have in the first place (even if it was an obvious no-bill) cause any time someone drops the hammer on another human being it should AT LEAST be questioned as a general policy, a standard procedure which prevents crap like this from NEEDING so much public outrage to grease the wheels of justice.
And he's gonna fry, since his flapping yap has ALREADY handed out enough evidence to sink him deep, from lying in his original statement, changing his story, ignoring procedure, common sense and the advice of a police dispatcher, making a racially charged comment on tape, not clearly identifying himself or his intentions at the beginning of the confrontation...

Again, I do know what the hell I'm talkin about, this is my official money-in-my-pocket, food-on-my-table aboveboard work, and I been doin it long enough to spot out a creep like Zimmerman miles away, cause hiring one of THOSE will sink your biz in the gutter with legal and liability problems before you can even blink.

-Frem

PS. Speakin of real racoons, the fuzzy kind, I scored a neat video clip last night playing peek-a-boo with one around a tree, it's quite cute...

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:25 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Stereotypes don't just happen.

A lot of people have to see a behavior before one is born. Then that behavior has to be reinforced over time for it to be vetted.

Drunk Irish.

Covetous Jew.

Mob Italian.

Bookworm Asian.

Maybe instead of blaming the aftermath of said stereotypes... you should try changing them. (Tho I give a pass to Asians.... getting good grades is not a vice.)

Everyone was all set to jump on this. "WHITE MAN KILLS BLACK BOY!"... and all that entails.

But now that the guy was Hispanic... you backpeddle. Cus God knows, its only ok to cry raciss when the target is white.

When its an "other"... well then. That gets all sorts of complicated, right? Only white people are raciss, right?

Racism does exist. But you might want to look in the mirror first before you start throwing that word around.

Who do you accuse of backpedaling? And why do you say Zimmerman's NOT white? Because he's part Hispanic?

Clearly, not *only* white people are racist, because you claim Zimmerman's NOT white, and here he is on a 911 call talking about "fucking coons" while chasing an unarmed 17-year-old black kid who was breaking no laws.

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:28 AM (P)

Wanna see how Fox News commenters are responding?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40088_Fox_News_Commenters_Reac
t_to_Trayvon_Martin-_Good_Shot_Zimmy

These are actual quotes left on the Fox News website in response to the story:

Quote:
What a shame—a tragedy, really— because the dead lil’ gangsta could’ve used “‘A-FIRM-TIV AK-SHUN” to go to kollige an play footballz and make lotsa cash munny!”

[…]

Fast and Furious didn’t work to pass new gun control so now Eric Holder will try the race card.

[…]

No matter how crime figures are massaged by those who want to acknowledge or dispute the existence of a Dirty War, there is nothing ambiguous about what the official statistics portray: for the past 45 years a large segment of bIack America has waged a war of v i o l e n t retribution against white America.

[…]

Zimmerman was attacked by the man and defended himself with a gun. Zimmerman’s wounds were verified by police.

[…]

17 = child. LOL!!!!!!

Let the LIB word games begin.

[…]

Yet the “justice department” refuses to prosecute any voter intimidation that involves a blac k as the intimidator.

[…]

Why should anyone care about this kid? Because he is of color? People don’t value kids period. They are property. BTW, I am a conservative that cares a great deal about kids. We follow hundreds of cases each year, many white babies and children, none of them get attention. But he does??

[…]

Zimmerman felt threatened by Martin’s gang’s actions…this could have possibly lead to these terrible circumstances. Gang violence MUST BE STOPPED OBAMA!

[…]

Blacks can do no wrong, period! That is the DOJ’s excuse for becoming involved. 50+ years of being told they are special and entitled and the gov’t’s only focus is to make it so!!

[…]

In any event, it appears to be a case of one sc u m bag Cuban-type (Zimmerman) offing some scummy b l a ck kid (Trayyy-Vonnnn)…in some trash neighborhood….

but now, because the dead kid’s a kneegrow, we have:

the BIG BAD FBI on this “important” case…and

the usual BLACK-RADICAL-PROTESTERS who can’t mind their own business!

[…]

Gated communities exist because people are afraid….& negros thrive on crime…Look at our prisons.

[…]

Need that too….But Negr0s only have their welfare checks….and in any event can’t follow rules

[…]

What time do the riots start? Gotta get my popcorn and munchies ready for the “hood” burning!

[…]

Funny you never see them rally against the drug dealing murderers that control their neighborhoods. LOL!!!

[…]

How does anyone know what this 17 yr old said, Most likely he threw the race card out ” you stop me because I*M B L ACK” and then became threatning. The media alway plants the seed of doubt when when a B l ac k is sh ot by a caucasian

[…]

maybe his gang brothers incited violence too?

[…]

How’d the kid get into the “gated” community in the first place?

[…]

Them monkeys can jump!

[…]

This is going to be a tough case. gang violence is hard to prosecute. martin’s gang may even want to retaliate. this is scary

[…]

Let’s find out why the “po’ baby” was REALLY there!

[…]

The little thug ghetto monkey should have been home doing his homework, not out gang bangin.

[…]

I’m just glad Zimmerman didnt miss and hit an innocent bystander.

[…]

THIS IS PURE RACIST!! When do you ever see the DOJ investigate the death of a white child??

[…]

This is pure B.S I want to see the kids police record even if something is expounged also why was he removed from facebook it says account terminated.Why because his parents are trying to cover his tracks just like if you hit a bus they see Dollar signs.People have dragged data about Zimmerman out where is the kids past.Don’t say he was a good boy prove it.Ask yourself what is more likely to happen any 17 year old kid when you ask a question.A smartass reply I have never and I mean never seen a teenager run unless he did something wrong.I guess no crinimal has ever cased a place when they went to a store.It tak

1KIKI

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:46 AM (P)

Irish millworker

Jewish physicist

Italian tenor

Asian gang

Oh, I just thought I'd contribute some equal but opposite stereotypes.

1KIKI

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:48 AM (P)

Sad to say Kwicko, but all the facts in the world will only garner an equal and opposite reaction.

OONJERAH

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 4:19 AM (P)

Last phone call may provide clues in Florida teen's shooting death =>
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-trayvon-martin-20
120321,0,6465227.story

The lawyer for Trayvon Martin's family says the conversation shows the 17-year-old was
killed 'in cold blood.' The gunman's father disagrees.

OONJERAH

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 4:20 AM (P)

An invitation to murder? by Clarence Page =>
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0321-page-201203
21,0,7296267.column
(Chicago Tribune)

Mr. Page is saying what some of us said, the "stand your ground" law
is a license to kill. But he has researched the statistics to prove it.

CAVETROLL

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 4:38 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko

Why do you think that those "howls of outrage" are appropriate when a white kid is the victim (and lives), but it's "self defense" when a black kid is killed?

Hell, to hear from some here, this might have been "self defense" by the black kids against the white kid. Doesn't seem to matter if he was younger, smaller, outnumbered or unarmed...

Troll, I'm wondering if you're going to follow the well-established pattern set by Rappy and Wulfie, and tend to express your howls of outrage when only when it's whites who are the victims, and not when it's black people.

It is not about race. It is about the laws as they are written not the laws as the public mob thinks they should be.

The difference, and I'm wondering why certain folks are having such a hard time parsing this, is the sequence of the events. Z follows M. There's some confrontation. Eyewitnesses see M on top of Z. Z is calling for help. At some point Z gets free and shoots M. When the police arrive Z is bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. Injuries are substantive proof of assault and reinforce existing Florida law. Nothing indicates racial motivation that lead to the use of deadly force. The police do not have enough evidence to arrest, so Z goes free. The investigation is ongoing. With the public outcry, the police and the DAs office will feel pressured to pull together a case. Any case.

You know what this reminds me of? The Nicole Simpson murder trial. The police and the DAs office in LA blew it because the eyes of the world were on them.

Now, let's look at Kansas City. I don't believe there's an affirmative defense for setting someone on fire in Missouri. If you know of one, please let us all know.

1KIKI

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:25 AM (P)

'The investigation is ongoing.'

Only due to public pressure. Against dispatcher advice a 28 year old armed man stalks an unarmed 17 year old. In the phone conversation between the 17 year old and his g/f he says that he is being followed and he's trying to get away. The 17 year old is cornered, a scuffle ensues, the 17 year old is shot dead, and the police DO NOT INVESTIGATE. Instead, the 911 calls are withheld, then 'corrected' b4 being released. Witness statements are quietly shuffled away. The cell phone call to the g/f is ignored.

It takes the FEDERAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT to prod the police department to investigate.

And this is what you're defending as just the normal workings of the law. Nothing about Zimmerman being in the wrong for stalking, intimidating and accosting. Nothing about the PD jiggering the evidence or the testimony. Just a regrettable meeting between a violent young black man, and a man who was only defending himself from unprovoked attack. This laughable piece of crap is what you would have us believe is the truth.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:28 AM (P)

I call bullshit, Trollboy.

Zimmerman, AFTER making a racial slur and demonstrating obvious bias, then against common sense, procedure and good advice, follows and needlessly, deliberately provokes a confrontation, without identifying himself or his intentions, mind you - with a much smaller, younger person, has his ass handed to him for it, and then shoots the kid in a hissy fit.

That's second degree murder.

Spin it all you like, but your shine-job flies like a cement airplane in light of the demonstrated, proven facts of the case available, that is unless you wanna call a confirmed police dispatch recording a fake, you got nothin.

Heaven forfend if this kid had any kind of juvie rapsheet, which a lot of kids of all races do, cause then the howling from the shit throwing racist monkeys of fauxnews and asshats like you would be trying to spin a vandalism or shoplifting pop to make the boy look like some kinda hardened criminal, without an ounce of doubt.

And lest you forget, it works both ways - had the boy shot Zimmerman, from HIS end of the altercation he would have been defending himself against some creepy motherfucker who was following him, then confronted and laid hands on him, except of course our stupid magic-number laws don't allow young people to defend themselves, which is another issue I got with shit like this.

And once again it shows the true colors of the hateful, intolerant, misogynistic mighty-whitey-righty crowd, the pure evil that lies behind the mask, and the REASON that if I had my way there'd be a robespierrian purge, and them folk would wind up providing the only use they're any good for.

Fertilizer.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

CAVETROLL

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:29 PM (P)

Frem, when have I ever insulted you? I'm going to ask that you withdraw your insult against me. I've tried to stay on the high road while you, Kwicko, Niki, KPO, Oonjerah, and 1kiki work yourself up into a lather. The law is what it says. I have only argued the points of the law. I've never said that Z was right. I think his actions were irresponsible, but not punishable, UNDER FLORIDA LAW.

Admittedly, I haven't listened to the tapes. They're just fuel for the fire of public opinion. You say Z used a racial slur, great. Z used a racial slur.

Overnight I've learned a fact that tells me the feds have Z on another charge. He'll cop a plea, if it is true.

ETA: Withdraw allegation of lathering against Anthony.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:36 PM (P)

CT - some folks just work with their prejudiced template, and anyone who colors outside of the lines, or suggests a different view, is to be mocked and ridiculed.

Especially here, of all places.

You should know that by now.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:48 PM (P)

Quote:
I've tried to stay on the high road while you, Kwicko, Niki, Anthony, KPO, Oonjerah, and 1kiki work yourself up into a lather.

Hello,

Perhaps you could be specific, in my case, where I lathered in disproportion?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

CAVETROLL

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:43 PM (P)

You are correct, Anthony. Edited to withdraw. My apologies.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
You are correct, Anthony. Edited to withdraw. My apologies.

Hello,

Accepted, and thank you.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 4:38 PM (P)

Yes, Cave; the law is what it is. And what it is says very clearly that the boy had the right not to answer questions of someone following him, AND had the right to protect HIMSELF against a stalker who he felt threatened him. I assume you missed that part, which I posted in detail. Nobody knows who attacked who initially, nobody can say who was on top, etc., just "two men who looked like they were wrestling", so how do we know it wasn't Zimmerman who tackled Travon? We don't.

Zimmerman's description of the boy staring at the houses could easily have been (and probably was) his trying to figure out which house he came from; he may not have been there at night, and if it were me, I wouldn't have wanted to knock on just any door in a gated community until I was sure it was the right door. I've heard nothing about him having been drunk or on drugs, so I believe if Zimmerman really thought that (and wasn't just using it as an excuse to pursue), he may have been influenced by his own sense of authority to get the wrong impression.

I'm sorry to see people trying to work this out with what few facts we have, while the usual suspects need to jump to the conclusionthat nobody cares now they know Zimmerman is PARTLY Hispanic. It shows racism on their part, nobody else's, since the tide of opinion has turned due to further information coming out, not the race of the suspect.

I'm sure glad those were COMMENTS, Mike...when I first glanced at it, I thought it was FauxNews commentators saying that, and even for FauxNews, that shocked me. Looking again, I see it was commentators; so, while I only read the first few, none of them would surprise me. We know the portion of the population FauxNews cottons to, so their reaction shouldn't surprise anyone. That there are many, many ugly minds out there which FauxNews encourages we already know all too well.

As to "working up into a lather", I've never felt anything here was important enough for that, sorry to disappoint you. Everything here is just opinion, same as me, so why would any of it be important enough to get upset about? I express my opinions, sometimes my disgust or amusement, then walk away from here and don't think about it again until I return. That you feel people have gotten worked up is your perception; I'm sad it's that important to you.

I'm glad you think his actions were irresponsible, but I say again: The law is quite clear, and to be followed by car and then on foot, and accosted by someone 100 pounds heavier gave the boy the legal right to defend himself if he felt threatened. As to another charge against Zimmerman, could you post a link, please, because I hadn't yet heard anything on that. I also hadn't heard anything about Zimmerman muttering something and would like a link to that so I can read it for myself, if that's possible. I haven't yet listened to the news, so I may have missed both.

As to the phone call to the girlfriend, the fact that she didn't come forward earlier makes me suspicious. It talks about "transcript", but how can they get a transcript of a cell phone call? For me, if they can prove the call even HAPPENED (which I believe IS possible?), that would be sufficient to make me believe more than disbelieve her story, but I'll wait for that information.

Basically, the law was on the BOY's side; he didn't have to answer questions by someone who wasn't a law enforcement person, who followed him in a car then on foot, and who accosted him for no understandable reason. Zimmerman was the aggressor, any way you look at it, and the self-defense law states clearly who had the right to self-defense--first Travon, who was doing NOTHING illegal nor bothering anyone.

Just out of curiosity, who here is a "comfortable, middle class, people screaming raciss"? I know I'm not--we sunk out of the middle class some years ago a

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:15 PM (P)

I wonder if, just if, a white boy was walking down the street... in the same fashion and manner as this kid... if it would have been different.

Lots of angles as to WHY Z decided to approach said kid.

Btw... just fyi, in case you were ignorant of it... lots of ghettos are being turned to barrios as Hispanics have been moving in. Lot of brown vs black hate there.

Not every black is a drug-dealer, and Hispanics have been beating them in getting work. Granted, its untaxed so they might have an unfair advantage.

So, they have the ability to buy property, open businesses... and all of a sudden, the hood becomes Mexiville.

And after scratching and crawling your way from Mexico, dodging INS, and working any shit job you can find... you think they arn't willing to keep their area clean?

Like I said, lots of angles on this, lots of ins and outs...

All part of the fun of having every single, different, group living in the same area.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

OONJERAH

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:16 PM (P)

*Oonjerah, who previously self-lathered, continues to lose it.*

NY Times => http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us/justice-department-opens-inquiry-
in-killing-of-trayvon-martin.html?pagewanted=all

The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, who fought the law when it was proposed,
said: “The consequences of the law have been devastating around the state. It’s almost
insane what we are having to deal with.” ...

The National Conference of State Legislatures has found laws in nearly every state that allow
the use of deadly force, to a greater or lesser degree, in self-defense, and in defense of
property and premises.

“This wave of laws started back in the 1980s,” said Jon Kuhl ... Laws like Florida’s, which
give broad license to use deadly force and to claim self-defense, in many cases beyond the
home, are a more recent phenomenon, he said. Some of the more lenient ones are in Southern
states.

Dan Gross, the president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, says that his
organization tracks laws in 21 states that extend the self-defense doctrine beyond the home.
The usual label for such laws — “stand your ground” — is politically charged, he said,
suggesting that a more apt label would be “Shoot first, ask questions later.”

Laws like the one in Florida allow situations like the Trayvon Martin killing, he said.
“We’re heartbroken, but we’re not surprised.”

ETA: BTW, I ran across this same discussion on a gun forum. The lean was the same, mostly
anti-Zimmerman.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:42 PM (P)

Quoting the NY Times, Fox News, MSNBC, Examiner, don't really carry much weight in these parts.

I still say we need a news source that just reports fact, without opinion.

Yeah it would be boring as hell, but... you tell the truth, with no opinion... at least you could count on it.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

KPO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
KPO,
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute
&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Section 3 is the applicable statute.

I erred in referring to it as the Castle law. My apologies. The Florida law is called the "Stand Your Ground" law. If threatened you can use deadly force. Don't like the law? Move to Florida and get it changed.

Thanks for providing the exact law, it states (emphasis mine):

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself..."

The application of this law is dubious in this case because:
1) We have every reason to suspect it was Zimmerman who initiated the confrontation, and Martin simply 'stood his ground'.
2) Zimmerman had to reasonably believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the moment that he fired - the facts of the case make this unlikely.

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Injuries are substantive proof of assault

CT, it's not 'assault' if it was Trayvon acting in self-defence, which seems to have been the case. Even if Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, HE WAS BEING STALKED - so such an action could reasonably be construed as defensive.

It's not personal. It's just war.

CAVETROLL

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Yes, Cave; the law is what it is. And what it is says very clearly that the boy had the right not to answer questions of someone following him, AND had the right to protect HIMSELF against a stalker who he felt threatened him. I assume you missed that part, which I posted in detail. Nobody knows who attacked who initially, nobody can say who was on top, etc., just "two men who looked like they were wrestling", so how do we know it wasn't Zimmerman who tackled Travon? We don't.

From ABC's story;
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-fbi-investigation
-killing/story?id=15949879&page=2#.T2nbKPVCW8A

Quote:

Witnesses told ABC News a fistfight broke out and, at one point, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

Quote:

Zimmerman's description of the boy staring at the houses could easily have been (and probably was) his trying to figure out which house he came from; he may not have been there at night, and if it were me, I wouldn't have wanted to knock on just any door in a gated community until I was sure it was the right door. I've heard nothing about him having been drunk or on drugs, so I believe if Zimmerman really thought that (and wasn't just using it as an excuse to pursue), he may have been influenced by his own sense of authority to get the wrong impression.

Never tried to work it out. I'm more than satisfied to let the authorities work it out. But some seem to like the idea of trying this in the court of public opinion, which is where vigilante justice comes from.

From the same article;

Quote:

It may have been an allusion to a statement by a group called the New Black Liberation Militia, which planned to travel to Sanford, Fla., next week to enact a citizen's arrest against Zimmerman and bring him to federal authorities.

Yep, sounds like vigilante justice to me. I wonder if they're going to bring a rope?

Quote:

I'm sorry to see people trying to work this out with what few facts we have, while the usual suspects need to jump to the conclusionthat nobody cares now they know Zimmerman is PARTLY Hispanic. It shows racism on their part, nobody else's, since the tide of opinion has turned due to further information coming out, not the race of the suspect.

Sorry, racism can be called on the OP who outraged when they thought it was a white on black crime. Whatever.

Quote:

I'm sure glad those were COMMENTS, Mike...when I first glanced at it, I thought it was FauxNews commentators saying that, and even for FauxNews, that shocked me. Looking again, I see it was commentators; so, while I only read the first few, none of them would surprise me. We know the portion of the population FauxNews cottons to, so their reaction shouldn't surprise anyone. That there are many, many ugly minds out there which FauxNews encourages we already know all too well.

As to "working up into a lather", I've never felt anything here was important enough for that, sorry to disappoint you. Everything here is just opinion, same as me, so why would any of it be important enough to get upset about? I express my opinions, sometimes my disgust or amusement, then walk away from here and don't think about it again until I return. That you feel people have gotten worked up is your perception; I'm sad it's that important to you.

Yes, Niki. You work up a lather. You hurl epithets. People who don't work up a lather don't get that involved. Riona's recent experiment result shows that you are the 4th worst on the board. And I don't recall you ever apologizing. Denial in the face of evidence is delusional.

Quote:

I'm glad you think his actions were irresponsible, but I say again: The law is quite clear, and to be followed by car and then on foot, and accosted by someone 100 pounds heavier gave the boy the legal

KPO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:21 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Cave, this thread already knows that, "Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'"

No one really approved of it, I think.
But that kid was clear-headed and saved his own life.

I think only you commented on it.

Was it ignored, because thankfully, no one died, or because it didn't fit the standard template? The one which initially had the story wrong, where it was a WHITE guy who shot the black kid...

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

Auraptor,

My thoughts on the incident in the article you posted:

1) It's horrific.
2) The incident was probably not as bad as it sounds in that article - the boy was able to save himself by taking off his t-shirt? He can't have been heavily doused in petrol then. Not so much 'boy set on fire' as 'boy's t-shirt set on fire while he was wearing it'. But I'm guessing here.
3) No, it didn't gain widespread traction in the media but wait - neither did the Trayvon Martin case... (until public pressure brought it to attention)
4) I'll bet the police DID arrest the perpetrators and justice was served (at least I hope so), unlike in the Trayvon Martin case - hence less public outcry

It's not personal. It's just war.

CAVETROLL

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
KPO,
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute
&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Section 3 is the applicable statute.

I erred in referring to it as the Castle law. My apologies. The Florida law is called the "Stand Your Ground" law. If threatened you can use deadly force. Don't like the law? Move to Florida and get it changed.

Thanks for providing the exact law, it states (emphasis mine):

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself..."

The application of this law is dubious in this case because:
1) We have every reason to suspect it was Zimmerman who initiated the confrontation, and Martin simply 'stood his ground'.
2) Zimmerman had to reasonably believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the moment that he fired - the facts of the case make this unlikely.

KPO,
See the link in my reply to Niki above. There's an eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. If you are down on the ground with someone on top of you, you can be beaten to unconsciousness. What happens after you're out, well, a prudent man wouldn't want to find out. If Zimmerman had pursued and then shot Martin it would be murder. Zimmerman pursued. He had as much right as Martin to be there. The dispatch operators advice had no force of law. Once Martin started hitting Zimmerman he opened the door for Zimmerman to defend.

KPO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:36 PM (P)

CT, if Zimmerman shot Martin at that exact moment in their fight, then I would say you have a case. But that does not appear to be what happened: Zimmerman doesn't claim this in his statement, and nor does this fit with what can be heard on the tapes (a man's voice calling for help, silenced by gunshots).

It's not personal. It's just war.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:57 PM (P)

If people were smart, they would use this as a way to talk about the real issues.

But no... we are subjected to the same old B.S.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

OONJERAH

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:22 PM (P)

*I imagine if I were lathered, my eyes would be wider.*

"Sponsors of Florida ‘Stand Your Ground’ law say George Zimmerman should be arrested"
:> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-sponsors-
florida-stand-ground-law-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Herald.
"When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Auraptor,

My thoughts on the incident in the article you posted:

1) It's horrific.
2) The incident was probably not as bad as it sounds in that article - the boy was able to save himself by taking off his t-shirt? He can't have been heavily doused in petrol then. Not so much 'boy set on fire' as 'boy's t-shirt set on fire while he was wearing it'. But I'm guessing here.
3) No, it didn't gain widespread traction in the media but wait - neither did the Trayvon Martin case... (until public pressure brought it to attention)
4) I'll bet the police DID arrest the perpetrators and justice was served (at least I hope so), unlike in the Trayvon Martin case - hence less public outcry

My intent was to show that , yes, racism exists, but it's not a 1 way street.

Also, in no way did I mean to suggest this was an apples to apples comparison, as the victim in Kansas City survived, and with only minor injuries. ( And this was because of quick thinking on HIS part, not because the attackers weren't capable enough, or didn't really MEAN to burn him alive )

And about that...and your 2nd point. THEY TRIED TO BURN HIM. What part of that do you see as " not as bad as it sounds " ? To me, this shows so much more malice and hatred aforethought, than what may or may not have gone down in FL. The punks intended to give the white boy what he deserved, the justice he was due, as they saw it in their eyes. Maybe the guy was a dick. Maybe he wasn't down with them, and some how 'dissed' them, who knows ? But burning folks alive ? Sorry to segue to a Jayne like tone, but where's THAT get fun?

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

CT - some folks just work with their prejudiced template, and anyone who colors outside of the lines, or suggests a different view, is to be mocked and ridiculed.

Especially here, of all places.

Especially by you, of all people.

Everyone should know that by now.

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Injuries are substantive proof of assault

CT, it's not 'assault' if it was Trayvon acting in self-defence, which seems to have been the case. Even if Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, HE WAS BEING STALKED - so such an action could reasonably be construed as defensive.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Exactly. Z's injuries are substantive proof of nothing.

As to the alleged eye-witness, we've already heard one witness state that their statements to police were changed from what they said they heard and saw.

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:20 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
If people were smart, they would use this as a way to talk about the real issues.

But no... we are subjected to the same old B.S.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

And what, in your estimation, are the "real issues"?

OONJERAH

Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:27 PM (P)

Quote Kwicko: "And what, in your estimation, are the 'real issues'?"

That puzzled me, too.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 22, 2012 1:32 AM (P)

When someone is following you, RUN, & dive over fences & stuff- most stupid folk won't be able to keep up or shoot straight.
If you CONFRONT an as***le. be prepared for the lazy response (I.E., getting shot).
DO NOT be where the moron is. DO NOT BE in the vector of the muzzle. If you cannot do one of these two things, you can die.

Man, this world is reverting, again.

The Mal-like Chrisisall

ANTHONYT

Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:22 AM (P)

Quote:
When someone is following you, RUN, & dive over fences & stuff-

Hello,

While this is certainly an option for many people, it isn't for me. My asthma means that I can run for less than 30 seconds before hitting serious trouble, and then if someone catches up with me, I'm done for.

My own technique is to plod away from threats while avoiding any behavior that might provoke an attack- while being ready to defend myself.

Today's incident was not people, but a dog.

On my daily 2 mile walk to work, a free-roaming bulldog ran towards me and barked frothily. Closed to within six feet.

I ignored him and plodded on at a steady pace. Never did more than glance his way. Eventually he satisfied himself about defending his adopted territory or sphere of influence and went away. Never bit me, which is nice, because a man who walks to work does not need holes in his legs.

I was prepared to defend against the dog if necessary, but keeping my cool made sure it wasn't necessary.

I wish all people were as easy to deal with as dogs.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:26 AM (P)

I had a strikingly similar situation once, dealt with it similarly ('cept I told the dog I'd kill it), and walked away too.
No need for violence in most cases.

The Mal-like Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:45 AM (P)

Police Chief loses "no confidence" vote by city officials.

Quote:
In a tense meeting Wednesday that highlighted growing tensions over the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager, local officials in Sanford, Fla., passed a vote of no confidence in the police chief as protests spread north to New York City, where the slain youth’s parents joined a Manhattan march demanding the killer’s arrest.

The no-confidence measure passed 3 to 2 after more than an hour of debate, and though it was not binding, the outcome and the public groans and applause that punctuated the debate underscored the anger pulsing through the Orlando suburb nearly a month after 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s death on Feb. 26. Most of that anger is focused on the fact that the confessed shooter, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, who has been described as both Latino and white, has not been arrested.

Dozens of Sanford residents gathered in the Sanford City Hall, where City Commissioner Mark McCarty set the tone for the meeting by noting that he had called for Police Chief Bill Lee’s ouster 10 days earlier in a meeting with the city manager, Norton N. Bonaparte Jr.

“I take no pleasure in publicly flogging our police chief. He’s a good man,” McCarty said.

But McCarty said questions surrounding the case, and the negative publicity cast upon the city since the killing, were largely the result of mishandling of the investigation. The questions, he said, include whether police were too quick to accept Zimmerman’s claim that he fired in self-defense, despite the fact that Martin was unarmed and that witnesses described hearing someone wailing for help before a gunshot rang out.

A lawyer representing Martin's family, Benjamin Crump, has said that the teenager was on a cellphone with his girlfriend and expressed concern that he was being followed by a strange man in the seconds before he was shot. And two women who live near the shooting scene have said that Martin was lying face-down, with Zimmerman looming over him, after he was shot.

“If it was self-defense, why was he [Zimmerman] on Trayvon’s back?” one of the witnesses, Mary Cutcher, told CNN in an interview.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-s
anford-police-chief-20120321,0,4163905.story
for full story.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
When someone is following you, RUN, & dive over fences & stuff-

Hello,

While this is certainly an option for many people, it isn't for me. My asthma means that I can run for less than 30 seconds before hitting serious trouble, and then if someone catches up with me, I'm done for.

My own technique is to plod away from threats while avoiding any behavior that might provoke an attack- while being ready to defend myself.

Today's incident was not people, but a dog.

On my daily 2 mile walk to work, a free-roaming bulldog ran towards me and barked frothily. Closed to within six feet.

I ignored him and plodded on at a steady pace. Never did more than glance his way. Eventually he satisfied himself about defending his adopted territory or sphere of influence and went away. Never bit me, which is nice, because a man who walks to work does not need holes in his legs.

I was prepared to defend against the dog if necessary, but keeping my cool made sure it wasn't necessary.

I wish all people were as easy to deal with as dogs.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

You did this just right. Most people simply don't realize how a dog's brain works. If it's a strange dog, not known to you, DO NOT make eye contact. Looking a dog in the eye is seen by the dog as a "challenge" - you're challenging its territory or its dominance, or trying to assert your own. DO NOT show your teeth, even in a smile. Think about it: how does a dog threaten? It shows its teeth. A strange dog sees a show of teeth as you threatening the dog, and may very well act out in self defense at such behavior.

When I encounter strange dogs, even dogs behaving aggressively, I cast my eyes down and sit on the ground, head down. The dog realizes almost instantly that I'm no threat, and at that point its natural curiosity kicks in, and if I'm not foe, I must be friend, or at least someone worth checking out and getting close to.

1KIKI

Thursday, March 22, 2012 3:07 AM (P)

Troll

I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 22, 2012 3:16 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
When I encounter strange dogs, even dogs behaving aggressively, I cast my eyes down and sit on the ground, head down.

Ha ha, frack that; I looked my menacing German Shepherd in the eye and asked it if it wanted to be dead.
I was not in a good mood. It realized that I was not to be fracked with.
Intent is important when dealing with animals.

The Mal-like Chrisisall

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