The Talk.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Friday, April 13, 2012 00:04
VIEWED: 8877
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WULFENSTAR

Sunday, April 8, 2012 6:21 PM (P)

Get your popcorn ready, this should be a good one.

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#a
xzz1rBeqdcIl

http://globalgrind.com/news/the-talk-non-black-John-Derbyshire-trayvon
-martin-details

ANTHONYT

Sunday, April 8, 2012 7:21 PM (P)

Hello,

Well, you have already expressed most of these ideas here on the forum.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

WHOZIT

Sunday, April 8, 2012 7:43 PM (P)

Great, they want to give me advice on how to deal with half the people I work with. Maybe Black People should come with an owners manual? Or maybe "I" should?

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, April 8, 2012 8:06 PM (P)

"Only one black in six is more intelligent than the average white; five whites out of six are more intelligent than the average black." Funny.

"In that pool of forty million, there are nonetheless many intelligent and well-socialized blacks. (I’ll use IWSB as an ad hoc abbreviation.) You should consciously seek opportunities to make friends with IWSBs. In addition to the ordinary pleasures of friendship, you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice." This is the Onion, right?

Is there an equivalent talk for boys their daddies can give them about "statistically" inferior women whom they nonetheless must befriend (at least the few intelligent and sexually attractive women--ISAW for short) to gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of sexism?

I think this video says it best:

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

KWICKO

Sunday, April 8, 2012 8:21 PM (P)

Well, that didn't take long.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/08/john-derbyshire-fired-arti
cle-african-americans?newsfeed=true

Apparently they didn't really mind him being a self-admitted racist, but they got uncomfortable when he started using the magazine's name to sell his particular brand of racism.

KPO

Sunday, April 8, 2012 8:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Get your popcorn ready, this should be a good one.

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#a
xzz1rBeqdcIl

http://globalgrind.com/news/the-talk-non-black-John-Derbyshire-trayvon
-martin-details

This must be one of those racist liberals you've warned us about, right Wulf?

It's not personal. It's just war.

NIKI2

Sunday, April 8, 2012 9:46 PM (P)

Sick. No, given the source I should say "predictable."

WULFENSTAR

Monday, April 9, 2012 3:57 PM (P)

Yes, its racist. Yes, its harsh.

But.

Is it wrong?

Granted, some here would be afraid to say that it was. Some agree with it, but are so inured by their poli-social-brainwashing that they CAN'T.

Is this actually bad advice. Or just not P.C.?

(I don't agree with everything in it. The Good Samaritan part, especially.)

STORYMARK

Monday, April 9, 2012 4:43 PM (P)

Golly, Wulfie siding with a White Supremacist piece of shit?

Wish I was suprised.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

ANTHONYT

Monday, April 9, 2012 5:38 PM (P)

Quote:

Granted, some here would be afraid to say that it was.

Hello,

In usual form, Wulf's statements and assessments are BRAVE.

People who disagree are AFRAID.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

STORYMARK

Monday, April 9, 2012 5:43 PM (P)

It's kinda scary that he's breeding, and will pass on his cro-magnon views to a new generation.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

KWICKO

Monday, April 9, 2012 6:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Yes, its racist. Yes, its harsh.

But.

Is it wrong?

Yes. It targets an entire group of people for no reason other than the color of their skin.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AwRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

WULFENSTAR

Monday, April 9, 2012 9:32 PM (P)

"Yes. It targets an entire group of people for no reason other than the color of their skin."

In Vietnam, soldiers were wary of women pushing strollers.

In Iraq/Afghanistan soldiers are wary of most anyone.

Stupid people can't tell the difference between Africans, dark-skinned latinos, and blacks.

I've been accused of living in a fantasy world....

Ok. I keep believing people are smarter than I see.

Take a walk in Detroit, Newark, 8th ward (Houston). Brooklyn. Chicago.

Its not skin color. Its culture.

Yes, trailer-park trash act the same way. So do Mexis. Its the culture of the left side of the bell-curve. But some groups end up on the wrong side of humanity, more than others.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, April 9, 2012 10:29 PM (P)

We're all from Africa originally.

Skin pigmentation is about absortion of vitamin d. Pale skin is a mutation that assisted in survival in an ice age in europe.

Most of us have little idea of our racial/ethnic origin further back than a few generations. Many countries in the world are such melting pots for races that it would be difficult to accurately pin anyone down on what they were.

Race identity is probably mostly about perception. How one perceives oneself and how one is perceived by others. Often those two things clash.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, April 9, 2012 10:54 PM (P)

There's had it coming.
There's askin for it.

And then, then there's the dumb shit YOU do, Wulfenwhiner.

Lemme put it to you from a different angle, you being such a radical "patriot" and all.
This country, this nation, was FOUNDED on the principles of equality in response to a whole damn lot of religious, social, economic and other discrimination resulting in effectively a caste society which the whole lot of them, even the goddamned Federalists, despised, and rightly so!

And thus when they broke with the Government of the King, and formed their own, they penned a document, and within were these words.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That, Wulfie, does *NOT* reconcile with your racism and cultural bashing, with your intolerance, with your pathetic ego-driven NEED to perceive yourself as "better than", no, THAT hearkens back to the divine right of Kings, forments in the "Born Better/Born Bad" phonyass self-justification of the predatory, and finally lands square on the altar of Hate, as you practice and revel in the worship of the concept.

For all your pretense of holding to american ideals, your very conduct spits upon them with every foaming diatribe vomited forth from that festering pie-hole connected up to the corroded mass of quivering fear and paranoia which appears to substitute itself for a brain, in your case.
Because what really scares you, what terrifies you the worst, is that you are NOT "better than", that there is no inherent superiority...

And we are all merely - EQUAL.

And thus I name you for the Tory quisling milqetoast that you are, an affront to the entire meaning of the county which has the misforture to have claimed you, and bid you good day.

-Frem
"I do not serve The Blind God"

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, April 9, 2012 10:55 PM (P)

PS. I *live* up here next to Detroit - do you ?
Don't talk shit you know NOTHING about, child.

-F

WULFENSTAR

Monday, April 9, 2012 11:08 PM (P)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is unquestionably true.

I don't argue against this, nor seek to say that it is an outdated ideology that doesn't meet the needs of a 21st century society.

Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

This is not simply a moral question. In fact, for too long it has been framed as such.

Instead, I would argue, it is a scientific, survivalist question.

Take it point by point.

BYTEMITE

Monday, April 9, 2012 11:19 PM (P)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Quote:
The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and academic research since the inception of intelligence testing in the early 20th century. There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and any discussion of their connection involves studies from multiple disciplines, including psychology, anthropology, biology, and sociology.

The American Psychological Association has said that while there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, and there is no conclusive evidence for environmental explanations, "there is certainly no [direct empirical] support for a genetic interpretation," and no adequate explanation for the racial IQ gap is presently available.

I consider Wulf's assertions and proofs to be inconclusive. I also have little doubt that it will probably never be possible to prove any theories about race and intelligence and causes, for both political reasons and for the simple truth that it is, essentially, comparing apples to oranges, or meters to seconds, as the basic parameters vary far too much between groups and between individuals to get any useful data out of either. As such, I would propose that it's generally better to approach every person on a case by case basis, and I'd also propose that some attitudes are self-perpetuating and engender certain predictable responses.

KWICKO

Monday, April 9, 2012 11:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"Yes. It targets an entire group of people for no reason other than the color of their skin."

In Vietnam, soldiers were wary of women pushing strollers.

In Iraq/Afghanistan soldiers are wary of most anyone.

So do you think that the U.S. military is actively at war with black neighborhoods here in the U.S.? If not, I fail to see the correlation you're reeeeeeeeaaalllly stretching to try to link to.

Quote:

Stupid people can't tell the difference between Africans, dark-skinned latinos, and blacks.

Are they really different? Are they not human beings?

Quote:

I've been accused of living in a fantasy world....

Ok. I keep believing people are smarter than I see.

Take a walk in Detroit, Newark, 8th ward (Houston). Brooklyn. Chicago.

Its not skin color. Its culture.

So why was this racist warning his kids away from people of only one skin color? You yourself just said that it's not skin color.

BTW, I've been to the 8th Ward in Houston. Had some great BBQ there, and wasn't jumped, mugged, robbed, beaten threatened, or even looked at funny. I was welcomed, seated, and fed, all with a smile.

But according to you, that's simply not possible, is it?

Quote:

Yes, trailer-park trash act the same way. So do Mexis. Its the culture of the left side of the bell-curve. But some groups end up on the wrong side of humanity, more than others.

What's a "Mexi"? Is that a generic term you apply to anyone of Latino/Hispanic ancestry? Isn't your wife Latino? Your daughter? What are you saying about them?

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AwRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

M52NICKERSON

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:44 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is unquestionably true.

I don't argue against this, nor seek to say that it is an outdated ideology that doesn't meet the needs of a 21st century society.

Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

This is not simply a moral question. In fact, for too long it has been framed as such.

Instead, I would argue, it is a scientific, survivalist question.

Take it point by point.

First prove they are rigth. The buden of proof is always on the person making the claim, not the other way around.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:46 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

argumentum ad ignorantiam

Case Closed.

NEXT!

-Frem

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:07 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is unquestionably true.

I don't argue against this, nor seek to say that it is an outdated ideology that doesn't meet the needs of a 21st century society.

Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

This is not simply a moral question. In fact, for too long it has been framed as such.

Instead, I would argue, it is a scientific, survivalist question.

Take it point by point.

Wulfie, can you PROVE - using the scientific method, of course - that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

Can you use the scientific method to (a) PROVE a "Creator"; (b) PROVE that all men are truly created equal, with ALL of the same rights? All of them? Not just American citizens (the document doesn't say a word about that, remember), but EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE. After all, if it's "self evident", then it should be obvious where everyone truly has such rights, and where they don't.

I can disprove the second part with two words: Guantanamo Bay. Obviously not ALL men have the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, do they?

So now, having disposed of your entire premise for your argument, what say you?

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

NIKI2

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Conservative writer John Derbyshire, who was fired from The National Review in response to a racism-laden piece he wrote for a little-known website, serves up a 15-point alternative that nonblack parents should provide for their children. His suggestions are a rogue’s list of racist stereotyping and codified prejudices that even he admits his own daughter rejected as racist and offensive.

(Note: from an interview with Derbyshire:
Quote:
Have you given your children any of the advise outlined in your "The Talk: The Nonblack Version"? If so, how did they receive it?

Both took it with some skepticism, even some disgust in my daughter's case. So I'd have to say they weren't very receptive. But at least they've heard it, and know that there's another point of view besides the PC flapdoodle, a point of view held by non-crazy persons. One does one's best.

I read what Derbyshire wrote with open-mouth amazement. He’s someone I hadn’t paid a lot of attention to in the past, so I assumed this was some sort of Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert-like send up. Nobody would seriously say this, I thought.

I was wrong. Derbyshire, I’ve since learned, is a British-born uberconservative writer for The National Review. Or was. Apparently Derbyshire’s article proved too much for even National Review editor Rich Lowry, who sacked him after enduring withering criticism for employing him as a featured writer. In announcing his departure, Lowry wrote:
Quote:
His latest provocation, in a webzine, lurches from the politically incorrect to the nasty and indefensible. We never would have published it, but the main reason that people noticed it is that it is by a National Review writer. Derb is effectively using our name to get more oxygen for views with which we’d never associate ourselves otherwise. So there has to be a parting of the ways.
There was no other choice. The man had to be fired because he was bad for business, even if the business is spouting conservative views that some readers come to expect and uncounted others actually embrace.

In fact, a lot of this has been going around lately and Derbyshire is the latest in a string of hard-right conservative reactionaries losing their moorings. Pat Buchanan lost his highly visible (and lucrative) position on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” after writing an odious book lamenting the decline of white supremacy in the United States. More recently, Rush Limbaugh saw advertisers flee his syndicated radio talk show after he called Georgetown Law student and women's health advocate Sandra Fluke a "slut."

But perhaps there’s a larger and uplifting message in this trend of right-wing flameouts. Conor Friedersdorf, a writer for The Atlantic, seems to think so. He avers that hardline racist views find a receptive audience only among a dwindling number of older white Americans, mostly those for whom segregation and Jim Crow represented the good old days. Some of those folks read The National Review or watch “Morning Joe,” but not enough of them to make those media outlets profitable.

The future, especially one based on social media outlets, belongs to younger people. Even among the young who embrace conservative issues and policies, overt racist attitudes don’t work. In fact, many are offended by the blending of racism and their politics.

Friedersdorf makes this point rather dramatically by quoting Derbyshire’s own views as expressed in a 2003 interview where Derbyshire described the challenge of writing about race for a changing audience of conservative readers like those at The National Review. An older set of readers longed for stridently racist views that recall an earlier day. Younger conservative readers, he said, are “determined to make the multiracial society work.”

“On subjects related to race,” as Friedersdorf concludes and I agree, “that's a very good thing.”

Derbyshire, like Buchanan and Limbaugh, appealed to the losing side of the demographic

STORYMARK

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:34 PM (P)

I like the bit about it being the view of a "non-crazy person". Elicited a chuckle from me.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:52 PM (P)

Quote:
we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

Well, um, I actually think that context is pretty important here. Whether there is or isn't a god, and whether the guy who wrote that owned slaves or not, the document was signed by people (some also slaveowners) who were willing to go to war because they felt that they weren't being allowed to make important decisions about their government and their economy.

As such I'm not sure it's so much a statement of how the world is, but rather an idealization of what people want the world to be like. That no matter where they are, they'd like anyone they met to have a basic appreciation that they are human, extend basic decency, and vice versa.

Cynical as I am, hypocrites they might have all been, that's not really something I can argue against.

As such I'm not really sure it's a point Wulf or any of us really wants to argue or dismiss. I think there are some other discussions to be had here.

NIKI2

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 7:57 PM (P)

I did, too. Obviously from what he wrote, these are Wulf's beliefs as well as DErbyshire's. Thank gawd he and Derbyshire reflect a dying breed. But that they should die quickly, and not procreate so that they pass on their sick views to the next generation (which obviously it's too late to keep Wulf from doing. I take heart that his children rejected Derbyshire's sick racism; I fear for Wulf's child.

Quote:
(11) The mean intelligence of blacks is much lower than for whites. The least intelligent ten percent of whites have IQs below 81; forty percent of blacks have IQs that low. Only one black in six is more intelligent than the average white; five whites out of six are more intelligent than the average black. These differences show in every test of general cognitive ability that anyone, of any race or nationality, has yet been able to devise. They are reflected in countless everyday situations. “Life is an IQ test.”

(12) There is a magnifying effect here, too, caused by affirmative action. In a pure meritocracy there would be very low proportions of blacks in cognitively demanding jobs. Because of affirmative action, the proportions are higher. In government work, they are very high. Thus, in those encounters with strangers that involve cognitive engagement, ceteris paribus the black stranger will be less intelligent than the white. In such encounters, therefore—for example, at a government office—you will, on average, be dealt with more competently by a white than by a black. If that hostility-based magnifying effect (paragraph 8) is also in play, you will be dealt with more politely, too. “The DMV lady“ is a statistical truth, not a myth.

(13) In that pool of forty million, there are nonetheless many intelligent and well-socialized blacks. (I’ll use IWSB as an ad hoc abbreviation.) You should consciously seek opportunities to make friends with IWSBs. In addition to the ordinary pleasures of friendship, you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice.

(14) Be aware, however, that there is an issue of supply and demand here. Demand comes from organizations and businesses keen to display racial propriety by employing IWSBs, especially in positions at the interface with the general public—corporate sales reps, TV news presenters, press officers for government agencies, etc.—with corresponding depletion in less visible positions. There is also strong private demand from middle- and upper-class whites for personal bonds with IWSBs, for reasons given in the previous paragraph and also (next paragraph) as status markers.

(15) Unfortunately the demand is greater than the supply, so IWSBs are something of a luxury good, like antique furniture or corporate jets: boasted of by upper-class whites and wealthy organizations, coveted by the less prosperous. To be an IWSB in present-day US society is a height of felicity rarely before attained by any group of human beings in history. Try to curb your envy: it will be taken as prejudice (see paragraph 13).

The article asks that a link to it be added to any quote from Derbyshire's screed; I won't do so and never would. Minds such as these don't deserve to be published, much less read!

As has been said, the burden of proof is on you (and Derbyshire) to prove this bullshit is TRUE. We don't have to prove anything. The article has been rejected by everyone except racists like you--it got Derbyshire fired from a VERY conservative organization, which speaks for itself. That you think it has any viability whatsoever speaks for itself as well

I assume you will never get past expanding your own small experiences to the greater world, but the greater world out here rejects you and Derbyshire both; only small people like you, scattered here and there, are still sick enough to take it seriously. It SHOULD have been an April Fool's joke...and even then, it would be offensive to all thinking people, and recognized for t

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

Well, um, I actually think that context is pretty important here. Whether there is or isn't a god, and whether the guy who wrote that owned slaves or not, the document was signed by people (some also slaveowners) who were willing to go to war because they felt that they weren't being allowed to make important decisions about their government and their economy.

As such I'm not sure it's so much a statement of how the world is, but rather an idealization of what people want the world to be like. That no matter where they are, they'd like anyone they met to have a basic appreciation that they are human, extend basic decency, and vice versa.

Cynical as I am, hypocrites they might have all been, that's not really something I can argue against.

As such I'm not really sure it's a point Wulf or any of us really wants to argue or dismiss. I think there are some other discussions to be had here.

Oh, no doubt, Byte; it's a laudable goal, but it's a long way from an unquestionable fact. Sure, we might WANT these "truths" to be universal and "unalienable", but the fact is, even today, that's not the case, even within our own borders, much less outside them.

And I wouldn't have pointed it out, except Wulfie brought it up as if it were some kind of magical amulet to strike down any arguments against his underlying racism. He holds dear his hatred of "the other" - be they liberals, blacks, "Mexis" (I note for the record he's still dodging my questions on that one, apparently afraid to give an honest accounting of himself), or what have you - and he holds it as it were a "self evident" truth that cannot be dismissed, disproved, or even argued against.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:11 PM (P)

"I did, too. Obviously from what he wrote, these are Wulf's beliefs as well as DErbyshire's. Thank gawd he and Derbyshire reflect a dying breed. But that they should die quickly, and not procreate so that they pass on their sick views to the next generation (which obviously it's too late to keep Wulf from doing. I take heart that his children rejected Derbyshire's sick racism; I fear for Wulf's child."

Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:18 PM (P)

Yeah, Wulfie hates Niki - we know that, with her "sick beliefs" like people are equal.

Yet he still can't muster the balls to address actual points. Funny how the ones that talk biggest (and someone as drunk on self delusions as Wulfie talks a BIG game) are the least capable of defendiong their ideas.

Lets hope his progeny is better equipped, but she's going to have a tough climb to competence, with such an example at home. His sick beliefs will poison that poor child.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

M52NICKERSON

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:22 PM (P)

I happy to know that within you daughter's life time she will be a minority in this country. That is something she will have to deal with. It is also something that dispite you she will. The youth of today are not caught up with the color of people's skin or their sexual orientation. It is the social conservatives that are dying off, not the hippies!

Oh, and remember your post the first time your daughter is called a bitch.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"I did, too. Obviously from what he wrote, these are Wulf's beliefs as well as DErbyshire's. Thank gawd he and Derbyshire reflect a dying breed. But that they should die quickly, and not procreate so that they pass on their sick views to the next generation (which obviously it's too late to keep Wulf from doing. I take heart that his children rejected Derbyshire's sick racism; I fear for Wulf's child."

Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.

Hello,

Quoted for Reference.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:31 PM (P)

Hello,

Testing Update.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:32 PM (P)

I kind of have to agree that Wulf's kid should be left out of all these discussions. It's in bad taste to keep bringing her up.

That said, I find it in equally bad taste to equate not having children with being selfish. WHO has kids to fulfill some kind of social obligation? No one. People have kids because they want to (or that should be the only reason) and that's no more or less selfish than choosing not to have them.

Also: That article was one of the more disturbing things I have ever read. This guy is talking about human beings as if they were feral dogs or objects. Towards the end he directly compares them to objects. His use of "the pleasures of friendship" is an absolutely sickening rape of the very concept of friendship.

Also like his "scientific" play with statistics. "In his experience" yxz percent of black people are violently racist towards white people and "half" are happy to passively support such violence. The entire basis for his "avoid all black people" safety talk is basically pulled out of his ass. But hey, so many links to random articles about individual cases! So meaningful!

I, too, am heartened that his children didn't buy his hate-filled advice and this makes me feel pretty confident that not-hating is NOT dying out.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:39 PM (P)

Quote:
I kind of have to agree that Wulf's kid should be left out of all these discussions.

Hello,

I agree. I wish Wulf would stop bringing her up or linking to 'talks' he thinks she needs to hear in order to round out her education and understanding of the world.

But recent statements have suggested to me that it is time to give up on Wulf.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:03 PM (P)

Problem Agent,

is that more and more of people are living with the fallout of decades of this nonsense.

America, as I understand its intent, is that we are all equal. You rise, you fall, and hopefully the government stays out of your way.

But, this is not how its been.

For too long we've been fed a red-slime of political-correctness.

While ignoring what this actually creates.

MLK said "... but by the content of their character."

How does that fit with "hate-crimes", "affirmative-action"?

If, just if, we were all held to the standard of being on our own... this wouldn't even be a problem. If things were fair, if things were right, you would rise or fall on your own. No government hand-outs, no welfare, no corporate meandering. You stood, and did the best you could. The end.

But look where we are now. Look how far we've fallen from the ideal of the individual.

We have all sorts of groups here. One (or many) expects special treatment for their religiosity, one for their sexual-orientation, one for their illegal status, one for their... well the list is endless.

As to this article... its not that he is wrong, its that he is RIGHT which upsets people.

That says more about the subject than the writer.

Would that article have worked if it was written about Asians?

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:20 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

MLK said "... but by the content of their character."

Nothing in this article attempts to judge people by the content of their character, you realize that, right? It's a work of bogus statistics and "averages" that broadly sweeps all black people into the realm of "threat to personal safety" and recommends all but the most limited contact. Where it doesn't stamp them violently hostile and "less competent", it freely likens them to objects that can be assets to white people.

Nothing about this respects the individual.

Quote:

As to this article... its not that he is wrong, its that he is RIGHT which upsets people.

That says more about the subject than the writer.

Would that article have worked if it was written about Asians?

I don't think it worked as it is. At all. It might if he was writing about vampires. Or vicious dogs. I don't know.

I'm sure some IWSV (intelligent and well-socialized vampires) might be an asset to befriend, a rare commodity that both employers and other non-vampires would covet. It might be wise to avoid all-vampire neighborhoods. Or leave any gathering where vampire numbers suddenly swell. Or not stop to help out a stranded vampire.

They actually live off our blood, so the blanket threat makes sense in that case. You know? But human beings?

This is not a good article to use when illustrating your anti-anti-discrimination legislation views. Because it's not really about that. It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human.

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:37 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

MLK said "... but by the content of their character."

Nothing in this article attempts to judge people by the content of their character, you realize that, right? It's a work of bogus statistics and "averages" that broadly sweeps all black people into the realm of "threat to personal safety" and recommends all but the most limited contact. Where it doesn't stamp them violently hostile and "less competent", it freely likens them to objects that can be assets to white people.

Nothing about this respects the individual.

Quote:

As to this article... its not that he is wrong, its that he is RIGHT which upsets people.

That says more about the subject than the writer.

Would that article have worked if it was written about Asians?

I don't think it worked as it is. At all. It might if he was writing about vampires. Or vicious dogs. I don't know.

I'm sure some IWSV (intelligent and well-socialized vampires) might be an asset to befriend, a rare commodity that both employers and other non-vampires would covet. It might be wise to avoid all-vampire neighborhoods. Or leave any gathering where vampire numbers suddenly swell. Or not stop to help out a stranded vampire.

They actually live off our blood, so the blanket threat makes sense in that case. You know? But human beings?

This is not a good article to use when illustrating your anti-anti-discrimination legislation views. Because it's not really about that. It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human.

Boom. That's it, right there. Wulfie of course agrees with the "science" of this article, because it so closely hews to his preconceived notions and beliefs. He never even thought to question whether or not it was a valid article based on valid numbers and facts. And it's not.

Heck, I can make as strong a case for teaching children to avoid bankers, investors, and stock traders, just going on what we all "know" about them: They're shady, they engage in regular illegal activity, they stick together in a gang and are out to stalk and rob others at any cost, they frequent brothels and strip joints, they have a tendency to be unfaithful, etc.

So when you see a group of investment bankers, do you reach for your shotgun, Wulfie? Will you teach your daughter to see the Wall Street crowd (overwhelmingly white, by the way) as "the enemy"?

Nice to see that you're worried about how your daughter is and will be treated, though. Even more precious is that you feel the need to insult someone else's femininity in trying to watch out for her, by calling Niki (and I quote) a "barren succubus" and a "stupid fucking bitch".

Your daughter has the deck stacked against her as long as you are in her life.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

STORYMARK

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:44 PM (P)

Im sure it will be very tough growing up in the 21st century when raised by a cave man.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:45 PM (P)

Agent,

"It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human."

Some Asians are dark-skinned. Indians as well (dots, not feathers). Hispanics too.

No. This addresses a specific subset culture, native to American (and even, British) society.

ACTUAL African-Americans, those who are in the process of becoming Americans, are disdained by this specific subset culture.

The author is right. It sucks, but he is. This article could not play for any other group, or subset (without being tweeked for said specific grouping).

You could write one for Mexicans, for Hispanics, for Asians, for Whites. You would have to change things, but it would still work.

So, why the argument? Why the horrible, gut-churning, reaction?

Is it because it groups all one subset, and bashes them? Ok. If that is so wrong then why do so many do it? Why is one ok, and the other is not?

Before you say different... google "white male". "Christian", "liberal", "conservative", "democrat", "Mexican", "illegal", or a hundred other types.

The truth of the matter is, this author nailed it on this specific sub-group.

But to acknowledge that, is to be labeled racist. Google racist. Then google reverse-racism.

He has it right.

You want a REAL starting point in talking "race-relations" in this country? Start here, start with this article. Acknowledge the truth of it, and move forward from there. Otherwise...just keep on, keeping on. Same old, same old. Breed anger, bitterness, hatred.

Blacks may have some grievances(whites especially). But the rest of the world has grievances against blacks.

Lay them out. Lets start there.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:07 PM (P)

Still waiting for you to prove your claim, using the scientific method (your own standard). Or are you a coward?

Come on, you're so sure of your position,l that this moron you stand by is so RIGHT - well, prove it, ya pussy.

Im willing to bet you won't.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:11 PM (P)

Quote:
The author is right. It sucks, but he is. This article could not play for any other group, or subset (without being tweeked for said specific grouping).

Wulf.

I disagree, I disagree, I disagree.

This article does not work for ANY group. Because it fails to talk about human beings and instead talks about a sub-human category of objects.

Do you not see the inherent inhumanity and indignity in that? He is not addressing grievances. He is trying to legitimize paranoid social separation. It's not about dialogue with a group, it's about avoiding any contact with the entire group. Based on figures he freely states are unproven figments of his own imagination or "experience".

Seriously, you do not need to defend this article. It does nothing to support what you think it supports. He is not talking about personal responsibility, he is not talking about individual merit, he is not talking about culture. He is talking hate-filled, pseudo-genetic biological "value" of different races - straight out of the 19th century. Or 1933. Seriously.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:11 PM (P)

Quote:
That said, I find it in equally bad taste to equate not having children with being selfish. WHO has kids to fulfill some kind of social obligation? No one. People have kids because they want to (or that should be the only reason) and that's no more or less selfish than choosing not to have them.

I couldn't subject that hell upon anyone, let alone someone I'm supposed to care for. ._. We're talking "accidentally stabs someone with knives in my sleep" here, let alone my wonderful upbeat waking personality.

Imagine that child. Imagine them, dressed in a potato sack, with head lice, trying to get my attention when I just don't care, or cringing away from my fits of room destroying rage and acidic hatred. Imagine the world view I would pass on to them.

Wulf's child will be adored. I have no doubts about this. I don't agree with Wulf's viewpoints, but I won't question whether he can care for his kid. We really should leave his kid out of this.

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:54 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Agent,

"It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human."

Some Asians are dark-skinned. Indians as well (dots, not feathers). Hispanics too.

And there are lots of people who view them as sub-human. You, for one.

Quote:

No. This addresses a specific subset culture, native to American (and even, British) society.

ACTUAL African-Americans, those who are in the process of becoming Americans, are disdained by this specific subset culture.

Do you imagine there are a lot of "African-Americans" in British society?

Quote:

The author is right. It sucks, but he is. This article could not play for any other group, or subset (without being tweeked for said specific grouping).

You could write one for Mexicans, for Hispanics, for Asians, for Whites. You would have to change things, but it would still work.

So, why the argument? Why the horrible, gut-churning, reaction?

Is it because it groups all one subset, and bashes them? Ok. If that is so wrong then why do so many do it? Why is one ok, and the other is not?

Before you say different... google "white male". "Christian", "liberal", "conservative", "democrat", "Mexican", "illegal", or a hundred other types.

So you're admitting that when I say something about all those racist tea-baggers, I'm making a valid point, because it's okay to label a whole subset based on the actions of a few?

Quote:

The truth of the matter is, this author nailed it on this specific sub-group.

But to acknowledge that, is to be labeled racist. Google racist. Then google reverse-racism.

He has it right.

You want a REAL starting point in talking "race-relations" in this country? Start here, start with this article. Acknowledge the truth of it, and move forward from there. Otherwise...just keep on, keeping on. Same old, same old. Breed anger, bitterness, hatred.

So you want us all to "acknowledge the truth" of something which has not a shred of truth in it? Sorry, but no, thank you. As for breeding anger, bitterness, and hatred, don't you already have that under control? ;)

Quote:
Blacks may have some grievances(whites especially). But the rest of the world has grievances against blacks.

Does it?

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:10 AM (P)

Oh ... my. This article is grotty, do people actually think this way about other people?

For one thing, if this article were true, there'd be a lot more African Americans with developmental differences running around, and there really aren't that many, unless Wulf has them all locked up in his basement because he sees them as subhuman. Just that piece of the article alone is enough to clue the thinking man into the idea that its bogus, much less the other tripe in there.

Hi Rouca, I want to see more of you, you can effectively refute Wulf's points while still treating him like a human being.

What I've discovered about talking about someone's kids if they didn't bring them up, is that you have to do it sideways if you're going to do it. I have done it in an insulting fashion once, but I did it sideways, because to come right out and mention them in an argument is plain bad taste. When you do it sideways they know what you're doing, but it isn't breaking the social taboo of not doing it blatently. Blatent reference to someone's kids in an argument is just mean and irrelevent. But if you must do it, do it sideways, that's my policy.

I've noticed a similarity between Anthony and Raptor: Deliberate obtuseness. Raptor does it to try and avoid admitting he makes mistakes, he pretends he didn't understand what people are saying to him. Anthony does it during arguments to pretend like he didn't actually understand what was being said. Rouka says we shouldn't bring people's offspring into this debate, clearly referencing everyone bringing Wulf's daughter into the discussion. Anthony comes back with saying she's right, that _Wulf shouldn't ever mention his daughter. Well that makes a rutload of sense (sarcasm intended). This is something he and Raptor both do in discussions.

And if people don't want to have children they should ... surprise ... not have children, its simple really.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:33 AM (P)

Ach. Yetch. Jesus. So, is ol' Wulfman now done denying that he's a white supremacist? Because ya can't say that whites are superior to blacks and pretend you don't believe that whites are superior to blacks, y'know? We clear?

I dunno. I live in a black neighborhood in Seattle. Before I lived where I do now, I lived in another section of the black neighborhood (Central District) for a total of nearly 15 years and counting. No intention of moving. I've been to all-black churches. Nearly all-black political rallies. I shop at a mostly black grocery store (the Red Apple on 23rd is legendary for it's excellent Motown shopping music--people dancing in the aisles). Last year I let African Americans borrow my phone to call 911 when they were in a car wreck with some West Africans. I'm around plenty of blacks "not known to me personally" every day. Anyway. The point is: I'm still standing, never been shot at, never been physically attacked or intimidated by black people (white people are another story).

So there's my absolutely irrefutable scientific proof!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:43 AM (P)

Quote:
Anthony does it during arguments to pretend like he didn't actually understand what was being said.

Socratic method.

Quote:
that _Wulf shouldn't ever mention his daughter. Well that makes a rutload of sense (sarcasm intended).

Well... I think Anthony was implying that Wulf is using his kid to trollbait, which is different from just mentioning his daughter. I don't think Wulf did that in the previous thread, I think he was in his own way really asking us for advice, it just sometimes gets lost in the scuffle.

And I also don't really know if this thread was an example of that either, yes, it's a link to what a guy wants to tell his kid, and it's implied that Wulf is considering telling his own daughter this, but I really think that's tangential to the argument Wulf's been expressing.

Quote:
And if people don't want to have children they should ... surprise ... not have children, its simple really.

Yes.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 2:45 AM (P)

Quote:
Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.

Thank you, Anthony. I won't forget it, either. If Wulf EVER clamors for civility again, it'll be around to remind him, and to remind him that I have never, ever written to him anything even close to that, nor called him a succubus or any of the other filthy things he's called me.

That is the most disgusting piece of shit I've seen since what's-his-name (DAMN, I can never remember his name--can anyone remind me?) went after me; even Raptor is above that kind of filth.

Three notes:

1. I said they reflected a "dying breed" (which they do, as all studies I've ever seen indicate that racism and homophobia are slowly going out of style with younger generations), I never said Wulf himself should die;

2. No, it doesn't hurt more to get out of bed in the morning. If I do some strenuous activity, I get stiff; if I do something stupid with my back, I suffer pain. Both are true of people far younger than I.

3. Where the hell he got the idea that I in any way believe in white guilt or "born-with-sin" totally eludes me. I accept neither, ENERGETICALLY!

Beyond that, the only satisfaction I take is that I seem to have touched a nerve--what nerve, I have no idea, but Wulf has obviously become not just my detractor, but my enemy. Means nothing to me; I live in the real world. But it's sickening to read what his mind comes up with.

Uh, Byte and Riona, you still want to champion this guy? Ever see me write ANYTHING even close to this, or wish for his death or his pain? Shouldn't have taken you long to understand why there are bad feelings from many on this board toward him. Justifiably bad feelings. Just sayin'.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:14 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ach. Yetch. Jesus. So, is ol' Wulfman now done denying that he's a white supremacist? Because ya can't say that whites are superior to blacks and pretend you don't believe that whites are superior to blacks, y'know? We clear?

I dunno. I live in a black neighborhood in Seattle. Before I lived where I do now, I lived in another section of the black neighborhood (Central District) for a total of nearly 15 years and counting. No intention of moving. I've been to all-black churches. Nearly all-black political rallies. I shop at a mostly black grocery store (the Red Apple on 23rd is legendary for it's excellent Motown shopping music--people dancing in the aisles). Last year I let African Americans borrow my phone to call 911 when they were in a car wreck with some West Africans. I'm around plenty of blacks "not known to me personally" every day. Anyway. The point is: I'm still standing, never been shot at, never been physically attacked or intimidated by black people (white people are another story).

So there's my absolutely irrefutable scientific proof!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Indeed - and it's every bit as valid and scientific as ANYTHING Wulfie has ever offered up.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:25 AM (P)

I'm not taking sides. I don't think that the people who gang up on Wulf are the same level of insults as kaneman, of course not, and saying that someone should die is awful. But that doesn't mean the constant bashing that does go on doesn't grind a person down and isn't hard to watch in its own way. Saying someone shouldn't breed is pretty bad too. Wulf is the product of his upbringing and the environment which he grew up in, which apparently was very hostile. I happen to sympathize with that, even if I think his anger is misplaced, and therefore it is difficult for me to blame Wulf for what supposedly happened to him, any more than I can blame the people who did that to him.

In any case, you are STILL going after me and attacking my credibility? Saying that I agree with Wulf's opinion about race and this article he posted? Tossing Riona in with that?

I apologized to you god damn so many times, you never apologized to me ONCE, you pulled someone unrelated into this fight just because they're my friend, and I've even tried to leave a few times so I could leave you alone and vice versa but my willpower has not been strong enough.

Are you ever going to give me a break, or am I your enemy, always and forever? Because you seem to keep going after me and Riona. I'd like to be as little passive aggressive as possible for once here, and get this out in the open and clear the air once and for all. Because I don't know what is going on, if you're doing this intentionally, or what.

If you don't want to be nice to me, then don't. Simple as that.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:30 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:
Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.
Thank you, Anthony. I won't forget it, either. If Wulf EVER clamors for civility again, it'll be around to remind him, and to remind him that I have never, ever written to him anything even close to that, nor called him a succubus or any of the other filthy things he's called me.

That is the most disgusting piece of shit I've seen since what's-his-name (DAMN, I can never remember his name--can anyone remind me?) went after me; even Raptor is above that kind of filth.

Kaneman, I think you're thinking of.

Quote:

Three notes:

1. I said they reflected a "dying breed" (which they do, as all studies I've ever seen indicate that racism and homophobia are slowly going out of style with younger generations), I never said Wulf himself should die;

2. No, it doesn't hurt more to get out of bed in the morning. If I do some strenuous activity, I get stiff; if I do something stupid with my back, I suffer pain. Both are true of people far younger than I.

Indeed. In WulfWorld, since I had a near-fatal motorcycle accident in 1982 and have dealt with chronic pain ever since, I should hurry up and die. I actually hurt less NOW than I did 15 years ago, because I've learned to manage the pain and deal with it in non-chemical ways. A really bad day for me is one that involves any kind of prescription drugs. Do I bound out of bed in the morning? Hardly. I wake up stiff and work it out. The harder I work, the better it gets, at least until I stop or sit down, whereupon I start to stiffen up again.

Quote:

3. Where the hell he got the idea that I in any way believe in white guilt or "born-with-sin" totally eludes me. I accept neither, ENERGETICALLY!

I *think* he was trying to say that "white guilt" is going away in his generation the way "born-with-sin" went away in ours. I don't carry a whole lot of white guilt, because (a) I never owned any slaves, and (b) my family were not slave-owners. Many of them were not here at the time, and the ones who were did not own slaves, and indeed fought with the Union Army to defeat slavery.

Quote:
Beyond that, the only satisfaction I take is that I seem to have touched a nerve--what nerve, I have no idea, but Wulf has obviously become not just my detractor, but my enemy. Means nothing to me; I live in the real world. But it's sickening to read what his mind comes up with.

Uh, Byte and Riona, you still want to champion this guy? Ever see me write ANYTHING even close to this, or wish for his death or his pain? Shouldn't have taken you long to understand why there are bad feelings from many on this board toward him. Justifiably bad feelings. Just sayin'.

I don't think they were "championing" him, ju

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:33 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm not taking sides. I don't think that the people who gang up on Wulf on the same level of insults as kaneman, of course not, and saying that someone should die is awful. But that doesn't mean the constant bashing that does go on doesn't grind a person down and isn't hard to watch in its own way. Saying someone shouldn't breed is pretty bad too.

In any case, you are STILL going after me and attacking my credibility? Saying that I agree with Wulf's opinion about race and this article he posted? Tossing Riona in with that?

I apologized to you god damn so many times, you never apologized to me ONCE, you pulled someone unrelated into this fight just because they're my friend, and I've even tried to leave a few times so I could leave you alone and vice versa but my willpower has not been strong enough.

Are you ever going to give me a break, or am I your enemy, always and forever? Because you seem to keep going after me and Riona. I'd like to be as little passive aggressive as possible for once here, and get this out in the open and clear the air once and for all. Because I don't know what is going on, if you're doing this intentionally, or what.

If you don't want to be nice to me, then don't. Simple as that.

Well said.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:01 AM (P)

Hi Niki, I agree that what Wulf said to you was horrible and disgusting. The only time I blatently defended him was when I said he shouldn't be called a coward anymore, doing the work he's doing, since it isn't coward's work. Other than that I tend to not say much about what he posts because a lot of it is pretty whackadoodle like this creepy article. I did try and give him real advice about his new little one because he really asked and it was the advice I would imagine everyone would give someone who is going to have a child.

I try, don't always succede, to take each thread on its own merrit. I'll trashtalk someone in one thread and be nice to them in another because I try to seperate things out, again I don't always succede, especially if I'm mad at someone, which occasionally happens but I try. Which is why I can tell Wulf he's a mean rutter in one thread and talk nice to him in the next, especially if the topics are unrelated.

But again what he said to you was atrocious and he's being a mean rutter again.

You and I don't always get along, the march blowout effected you and I in regard to each other, but I usually like you and I perceive us as being friends and getting along good.
The thing I learnt recently is that just because I think someone is my friend doesn't mean they actually are. I start assuming well of people and then that opinion is only altered when they do something to indicate that I'm not _their friend. I added that line to my subject line because I realized that many people don't view their fellow humans in that way, so I want people to know where I'm coming from so they don't wonder why I assume sociability between me and others automatically exists.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:04 AM (P)

My gawd, Byte, where did THAT come from???

Quote:
In any case, you are STILL going after me and attacking my credibility? Saying that I agree with Wulf's opinion about race and this article he posted? Tossing Riona in with that?

WHERE did I EVER say, or even hint, that you AGREED with Wulf'so pinion about race and the article??? Please check, but I never did, and I never thought it for a second! I made a remark because I have noted both you and Riona being extra nice to Wulf and occasionally remarking that the rest of us are mean to him. That was my point; nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't "toss" Riona into anything, it was actually she who first came down on others for their feelings toward him and, as a newcomer, we assumed she would learn for herself where those feelings came from. This particularly hideous post of Wulf's to me reminded me of her remarks back then and I pointed it out. If anything, this was more TO Riona than to you, who have been here long enough to understand people's feelings about Wulf and where they come from. So YOU were kind of ancillary to my comment, not Riona...and I don't care who is WHOSE friend, I talk to people here as if they are individuals most of the time. Your accusations are way off base.

I wasn't aware you'd apologized to me "god damn so many times"; I saw an apology, and it was more about a misuderstanding, if I recall correctly, than you actually doing anything to me which deserved an apology. But I'm unaware of what I might have done that required an apology to you; if you would enlighten me, that would help.

I'm also not aware I have attecked your credibility; please see above with regard to my ONE COMMENT. If I "seem" to keep going after you and Riona, I suggest it might be your perception more than reality, because I DISAGREE with different people here more than I do with others, but I'm not aware I've ever "gone after" you or Riona. I recall at one point that I got impatient and wrote to you directly that I get the impression of a certain amount of passive-aggressiveness from both of you, but I've never mentioned it since and I don't see it all that often, it just seemed to be the case back then. I see you haven't forgotten that, but if possible, could you give it a little less weight? You aren't usually passive-aggressive, just for a bit of time there--maybe a week or two?--you and Riona both seemed that way to ME. I think Kiki or someone originally said it, and I chimed in. But that was then, and, as I said, I've not noticed it since.

I'm afraid you'd have to give me specific examples so I can understand where you're coming from, because I don't get the reason for this aggressive post. Is something else going on with you, or have you become hypersensitive to me? That's not intended as a snark, I know sometimes you have different feelings from time to time, and I honestly am rather shocked by your response. I know we are of different personality types and we grate on one another sometimes, but I've never seen you as my "enemy" in any way, shape or form, just someone I occasionally disagree with. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't; I speak as honestly as I can at all times.

Okay, as for what I wrote, my one comment directed toward you and Riona. I was rather shocked to read Wulf's ugly attack on me, and it definitely was an ATTACK, not something I imagined. It angered me for a few minutes, and when I responded to it, across my mind drifted "Wow, I wonder if Riona and Byte have read this and if it changed their mind about defending Wulf?" and I wrote what I did. It was a throaway line at most, and I was still angry at what I'd read. That passed quickly, it's not important enough to hold onto, end of story. I'm sad it affected you so strongly, and I wish we could work it out.

Oh,

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:11 AM (P)

There are times that I forget how awesome you all are. I'm not perfect. I get mad, I get frustrated, I lash out. I have issues, which I probably talk about so much that it bothers the bejesus out of people. Sometimes, I'm a super bitch, and I say stupid things that are hurtful. And I hurt Niki. I admit it. It doesn't matter if what I said wasn't serious, it hurt her. I can't blame her for not liking me or trusting me from here on out, because if the roles were reversed, who could say for sure if I wouldn't have done the same.

When I said I was sorry before, I really did mean it at the time. And I'm already starting to feel sorry about snapping at Niki again. I'm a little hot-headed. And Ive been snapping at her a lot, because I've felt a little persecuted. Feeling like Riona has been persecuted along with me, in part or wholly because of me, that's going to just exacerbate the problem. it's probably not even true, and it's my paranoia playing tricks on me. I haven't been sure, I've been dancing around the issue, which is why I've tried to give Niki space.

People are going to hate each other sometimes. That's the way the world is. People are going to hate ME. Wulf is gonna hate, AURaptor is gonna hate, people are gonna hate on them because of it. Some of that hate isn't fair or rational. It's important to call it out, it's important to disagree where disagreement is warranted. At the same time, we can't really make someone not hate, we can't change what their experiences were, what caused the hate, no matter how long we try to do it, and I don't really think it's fair to hate someone for being unable to change. We all have to live with the harsh side of human nature. What society is, what a community is, is how we choose to deal with that. We don't have to accept it or tolerate it or agree with it, but we can live and let live. We can see persons, and not just the hate.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:13 AM (P)

Thank you Riona. I appreciate the clarification. And it helps me understand some things better.

Quote:
I try, don't always succede, to take each thread on its own merrit. I'll trashtalk someone in one thread and be nice to them in another because I try to seperate things out, again I don't always succede, especially if I'm mad at someone, which occasionally happens but I try. Which is why I can tell Wulf he's a mean rutter in one thread and talk nice to him in the next, especially if the topics are unrelated.

I'm the same, except I know that, after several years here, I am definitely prejudiced against some who have made it very clear they dislike me rather intensely--I've noticed I've made mistakes in misunderstanding what they have written from time to time out of that prejudice, so I, too, TRY to keep that from happening.

Hee, hee, hee:

Quote:
I start assuming well of people and then that opinion is only altered when they do something to indicate that I'm not _their friend

That's precisely what I go by. I long ago decided there are only two ways to do it. Either I start out thinking everyone is okay until proven otherwise--which means that there will always be times I am nice to someone and look like a fool afterward or (offline) get hurt by someone--OR else I stay guarded in my interactions with everyone, which deprives me of all the GOOD things I would experience from good people. I prefer the former, and don't give a shit whether I look like a fool. I have forgiven some people for some truly awful things they have done to me and/or said to me or about me; it has solidified my belief in that I chose the right way to proceed. In some cases, we have gone on to work things out and have a treasured friendship; in others I've been "taken" more--but not MUCH more, I do learn eventually ;o)

So we have a lot in common; I hope you understand from what I explained to Byte that I was in no way attacking or going after you and her and why I made the comment I did. It was not intended to offend. I'm not sure why it angered Byte so much, but I hope we can work it out.

When it comes to misunderstanding someone was you friend...Mike? Really?!?! You agree with Byte and think the same of me?! Wow. That's a bolt out of the blue!

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:40 AM (P)

Quote:
When it comes to misunderstanding someone was you friend...Mike? Really?!?! You agree with Byte and think the same of me?! Wow. That's a bolt out of the blue!

I'm glad she brought it up, since there definitely does seem to be a bone of contention between the two of you, and getting it out in the open and hashed out is the best way to fix it.

Do I "agree with Byte"? Do I think the same of you? I don't know. I think she's got a valid concern, and I can see why she feels that way when you basically accuse her and Riona of "championing" Wulfie. That's a curious word choice if you weren't trying to be confrontational towards them.

Hell, I'll defend Wulfie's right to say some insanely stupid shit, but that hardly means I'm in any way agreeing with him or "championing" him; it means I agree with the rights of free speech, not with what's said under its umbrella.

I'd love to see you and Byte and Riona get all this crap sorted out, and I think Byte's direct approach offers a great chance at doing that. I think all three of y'all are the bee's knees, the wasp's waist, and more, and I think you actually agree on about 90% of stuff, but all of you keep getting hung up on the same 10%, and it's becoming a wedge.

Y'all can figure it out, make it right, move forward, or decide to just agree to disagree. Not everybody has to be friends here, but if you can't be, that should probably be made clear, too. There are people here I can pretty confidently say I'll never be friends with, and that's okay. You don't have to get along, but you should at least figure out where you stand in regards to each other. I'm not taking "sides"; I said that what Byte said was well said, because I appreciated her forthrightness in trying to clear the air. It doesn't mean I think less of Niki, or that I'm having any "favorites"; just that I thought she brought up a valid point of discussion that should be addressed.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:42 AM (P)

Hi Niki, no your comment to Byte and I didn't upset me.

"Everything works out in the end. If its not allright then its not the end."

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:43 AM (P)

Byte: Wow, that's as shocking as the first one! In a good way, mind you, I've just had my head spun about several times in four or five posts!

Honey, you didn't hurt me. NOBODY on line can ever "hurt" me. You shocked me, mostly because it was such an angry post (and no, I didn't see it as an "attack") in response to one mild comment. But we've been there before, so I've come to believe that occasionally you misunderstand something I write, can be a bit oversensitive to things I write and/or take personally things I never meant personally. Also I know I can be "sharp" (if you will) and not phrase myself as clearly as I would like. It doesn't bother me; if we can't accept others', we can't accept ourselves, and vice versa, and believe me, I KNOW a lot of my own "personality quirks" if you will. I also know I don't know them all, I just keep working at it and, in the meantime, accept myself. I don't actually DISLIKE anyone here NOW, some piss me off, but I've come to accept that. Some I have to work things out with from time to time, and I appreciate it when that can happen. It's the mark of someone I respect that they try to work things out with me, and it gives us another chance.

PLEASE don't feel bad about snapping at me; as far as I'm concerned we're working it out and understand one another better, so that makes it in the past. There's no reason for me not to like you, and as I've said before, I don't TRUST anyone on the internet, I never know who anyone is. As I wrote to Riona, I've long since made my decision as to how to take people, but that doesn't mean I trust anyone. But I certainly don't mistrust you any more than anyone else here.

I don't know if by "giving space" means you've been not responding to me or something else, but I'd be most grateful if you wouldn't, and would just say what you mean when you feel it. It gives us the CHANCE to work things out, and if we don't, stuff builds up, which isn't healthy for anyone. I think, after cogitating on it a bit, that there might have been some unconscious RESENTMENT toward you and Riona for your defense of Wulf, in fact seeing it in print, I'm pretty sure of it. The stuff Wulf writes grates on me--he says I make his hackles rise. It's as much the WAY he says thing as what he says, it comes across as terribly condescending and "holier than thou" which, given the CONTENT of what he says, is really absurd. Not sure why that pisses me off. Raptor says many of the same things, but it doesn't "feel" as offensive--which may not make sense to anyone, and if anyone can help me understand why, I'd appreciate it.

Ach, I don't want to get into self-psychoanalysis right here on the board, I'm kind of thinking as I'm writing. Suffice it to say that, while it wasn't MEANLY meant, at all, some of my frustration and anger at the ugliness of Wulf's post to me seeped through in that comment to you and Riona. My apologies.

One last thing then I'll quit. With regard to Wulf,

Quote:
I don't really think it's fir to hate someone for being unable to change.

As I said, I don't "hate" anyone here. But neither do I accept that anyone here has the right to abuse me because of who they are or what they've suffered. It's upon each of us to decide how we want to relate to one another, and we are RESPONSIBLE for that. If we started deciding who has the right to be vicious to whom and who should be told off for doing so, we'd end up with gradients of how vicious one person has the right to be to another, etc., which is insane. When someone throws all decency out the window, they don't deserve anyone's sympathy. We all snark at one another, but there are limits as far as I'm concerned, to what should be accepted. That'

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:47 AM (P)

Quote:
WHERE did I EVER say, or even hint, that you AGREED with Wulf'so pinion about race and the article?

Championing for Wulf is what you said. There's been a few other people who posted before me who felt the need to clarify that neither riona or I had agreed, so in the very least you were a little unclear.

Quote:
This particularly hideous post of Wulf's to me reminded me of her remarks back then and I pointed it out.

And neither of us agreed with it. That does NOT necessarily change whether or not a lot of attacks are exchanged from both sides, or give me any particular inclination to join in.

You are calling out me and Riona a LOT, and I was asking why. And it's not just in this thread about Wulf. Perhaps you're unaware of it, perhaps it's just my perception. I don't know. I'm just putting this out there.

Quote:
or have you become hypersensitive to me?

Possibly this. At the same time, it's hard for me not to think that I don't bother you. It just, it seems like I do. Maybe you don't give a damn about me, I guess that's all right. It's just the internet, after all, you have that option, and I'm not a real person to you or anyone else here anyway.

Quote:
you cut him more slack in his attitude toward us, with which I DEFINITELY do not agree.

The die Niki die post was bad. No argument there.

I cut him slack about his feelings about race, because I can't change it, and because he's entitled to his opinion even if I don't agree. He's even entitled to say awful things about race on a message board. I don't think it has any particular bearing on Wulf as a father, and I also think this little girl has a mother who probably doesn't agree with Wulf on everything either.

Perhaps what wulf says about race can't be divorced from how people think about him as a person, and therefore cutting him slack on this aspect makes it seem as though I agree with him about race, or that I am against the rest of you and support his attitude towards you. I'm not, I don't, any more than I think all the stuff that gets said to Wulf is one hundred percent okay. I just don't really bother talking about race issues with him. It seems like the central aspect of his personality because he brings it up a lot, and maybe that is just to get a rise out of people, because Wulf loves to fight. But when I look at Wulf I don't think of him as "race issues guy," and so I have other conversations with him.

Quote:
Everyone is responsible for themselves, nobody should get any special treatment because of their past or anything else.

True... But I'm not sure that we can completely ignore a person's past. I think recognizing people's experiences is an important part of recognizing who they are and what they think. It would be wrong to tell a rape victim who could not trust men any more that they ought to just get over themselves, no matter how inappropriate their stereotyping an entire group is. The same is true with mental illness, I wouldn't attack someone or dismiss their opinions because they see things sideways, though I might still disagree.

Perhaps I pull punches, and perhaps I side with Riona sometimes because she's my friend and I overlook things I don't agree with her about. I like to think I do the same for most everyone, perhaps I've been less fair to you and others about that recently. I don't think this is disrespect, or thinking that a person can't compete on the same level, but rather I think that everyone has gaps in their armor and to hit them there hurts and that shouldn't be part of a conversation. I give people special treatment and put some things off limits, because I like them, and I'd hope they'd extend me the same courtesy.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:49 AM (P)

And now, back to this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I don't think anyone here blames Wulf "for what happened to him". But neither do we believe he should be apportioned special treatment and special rights to be vicious to others because of it.

I don't blame Wulfie for what happened to him. I blame him for how he deals with it, what he does with it, and how he chooses to use it or move forward in his life. What happened to him was the fault of others beyond his control; what he does with it is completely up to him.

All of us have baggage. Some of us have decided to enjoy the trip.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:54 AM (P)

Oh, and we may have to have a group hug here pretty soon, the way things are going.

(If you can't tell, THAT'S A JOKE! And it's even more appropriate because it's just the kind of hippie-dippy liberal thing that Wulfie absolutely loathes and detests, which of course makes it AWESOME!)

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:57 AM (P)

I know what you mean about Raptor vs. Wulf Niki, Raptor, politically opinionated as he may be, somehow seems more anocuous than Wulf, especially lately. He does what he does because he enjoys the back and forth and being contrarian, and because he feels he's correct, and his insults are rather benign compared to Wulf, who can be really mean. I think that if I met Raptor in real life we'd actually get along pretty good, even though there's a lot we disagree on. With Wulf I honestly don't know, I think we could make it work though, because I see some good in him and I can tell he wants to be nice, he just doesn't seem to know how to.

Which meannesses to allow: Well I don't have the ability to allow or disallow anything, so I guess I never thought about it. Irrelevent insults don't sit well with me. Insults related to the topic at hand don't seem so bad though, its actually kind of funny when people get mad at me because its just like "huh?", honestly even nasty and irrelevent insults sort of make me chuckle because I'm like "Where did that come from? ... wow". But of course no one likes to be insulted, especially in irrelevent ways. It really says more about the person doing it than the person being insulted. When I insult I try to keep it relevent, at least pertaining to the general topic if not directly related, a little creative license isn't so bad, but when it gets way out there its like yowsa.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:01 AM (P)

Okay, Mike, I better understand. If you too have seen some valid concern then I must be doing something subconsciously, I'll think on that and try to be more aware. It wasn't something conscious, and "championing" wasn't meant as a confrontational word; I was thinking back to our being called mean and, given the attack was specifically on me, thinking more like "See? See why we don't like him?" Maybe there was a sense of victimization there or resentment that they have given him the benefit of the doubt, when to me Wulf never gives ANYONE the benefit of the doubt, ever, unless they agree with him.

I can understand getting something out in the open, that I definitely agree with and maybe the three of us should communicate in e-mail or something if we need to; I'm going to respond to Byte's last post and if we need to work more out, maybe we can take it to e-mail. We've kind of gotten a long ways off the original topic here. To me it was the WAY she got it in the open, it "felt" pretty attacking, disproportionate, and out of the blue. For you to say it was well said, when she had made some pretty harsh judgments of things I felt she was misunderstanding in the first place, was strange to me. I understand somewhat better where you were coming from. Respectfully, I still disagree about HOW it was done.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:22 AM (P)

Quote:
There's no reason for me not to like you, and as I've said before, I don't TRUST anyone on the internet, I never know who anyone is.

That's entirely fair, and also not too far from the alternative that I thought might be going on. Only, perhaps, you probably phrased that a little more tactfully than I did.

so... it's in my head. I just need to take a deep breath. That's a far easier issue to deal with. I hope. My internal mindscape is not always all that cooperative, but I can try to wrangle it into behaving if I start getting seriously way too overdramatic again. That's something I can control once I know what it is. Most times... sometimes... warg. I have no idea if I ever successfully manage that or not. But I can try. It's that or give up, and I guess lately I've been taking the lazy way out.

Quote:
I think, after cogitating on it a bit, that there might have been some unconscious RESENTMENT toward you and Riona for your defense of Wulf, in fact seeing it in print, I'm pretty sure of it.

I was really more defending Riona in that case... However, I suppose I was being nice about Wulf becoming a firefighter, as I did think that is an admirable accomplishment, even though the way he announced it... Well, I guess I can't talk, I've done about a fat load of nothing with my life. But a lot of you guys have. I know that Wulf thinks he's right all the time and it doesn't ingratiate himself to anyone, but I ignore it not because I think he's fine saying it to you all, but more because what can I say back, what did he say about me that wasn't true?

Anyway, I got provoked there because of what Wishimay said to Riona. I guess I felt like I'd been sincerely sorry, but then it seemed like the fight hadn't ended after all, and so I went right back into attacking you. I wasn't able to separate out the one thread from the other, I thought there was a connection. And then I've been continuing to think there was a connection everytime there was a disagreement, and even directed it unfairly at other members of the board. Yeah, I've been letting the wound fester, for no good reason.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:30 AM (P)

Sorry Niki. You're right, it was blunt and direct, perhaps too much so. I don't think I meant this time for it to be particularly attacking, more I was just frustrated and tired about fighting a battle that, as it turns out, I was the only one fighting.

So I guess at the time I felt like, well, avoiding it just because I'm not sure what's going on hasn't worked, it's time to be direct and ask.

You're probably also right that this would have been better suited to PMs. You know, it used to be that I wasn't such a drama queen, I could actually let things go, and I didn't air issues in public. At some point in the past I started talking and couldn't make myself shut up any more. There's been many times I've wished I could find that place again. Maybe eventually I will, and be a better and more cool-headed person as a result.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:32 AM (P)

Oh, shit, look at all the new posts. It's 10:00 and I haven't even eaten dinner yet, this has to stop. So briefly (as briefly as I am capable!), then I'm outta here:

Mike, it's waaaay late but you get the prize for the first giggle of the day. The group hug. I love it.

Thank you for reminding me of Kane's name. I have a Word doc where I write down things now and then (hoo, BOY, you should see the "library" on Kane!) and glanced through it to remind me of who he was, but if I hadn't, you'd have reminded me of it.

Quote:
I don't blame Wulfie for what happened to him. I blame him for how he deals with it, what he does with it, and how he chooses to use it or move forward in his life. What happened to him was the fault of others beyond his control; what he does with it is completely up to him.

All of us have baggage. Some of us have decided to enjoy the trip.

That about sums it up for me.

Byte: Yes, obviously I was unclear; I was referring to recently when we were chastised for being unkind to Wulf. "Championing" is different from "agreeing with" to me, obviously that's not so for others. I never thought or meant to say that ANYONE agreed with him about race!

I would honestly like examples of when I've "called" you or Riona "out". I'm unaware of them. I'm aware of disagreeing with people, but aside from the time Kiki mentioned passive-aggressiveness, I'm not aware that I've called you out. So if you can remember any specifics, I would be grateful. Seriously; we never learn what we do unconsciously if we never get to see it, and I've not intentionally called you out that I'm aware of.

For clarification purposes: You don't bother me. I like you. We disagree at times. End of story. 'kay?

Quote:
or that I am against the rest of you and support his attitude towards you.

Mmmm, you may have hit on something there. That may be some of what's happening to me, that I feel like from things you've said that you view Wulf as the victim. I'm still trying to sort all this out and no doubt will be for a while, but that hits home, so there must be something to it.

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maybe that is just to get a rise out of people, because Wulf loves to fight

In the aforementioned document, I've noted periodic things said by people, and you might find this pertinent:

Quote:
"Do you TRY for Epic Fail, Wulfie - or does it just come natural to you?"

I DO try. Its amusing to watch people foam at the mouth.

Dunno who asked the question, but unless he was joking, there's your answer.

Riona: Yeah, I've kind of noticed that Raptor seems to have taken the edge off lately; I thought maybe it was my imagination. Just the personally-attacking stuff, and it's just a perception, dunno if it's intentional or not. If it's intentional, I certainly appreciate it!

Quote:
I don't have the ability to allow or disallow anything

Obviously none of us do. But that's kind of a dichotomy; wasn't it you who said you weren't going to stand for this or that to someone else where Wulf was concerned? You wrote what seemed like a deliberate threat at the time, something about how you'd go after someone if they did it again...I forget the specifics, but I remember that because I remember thinking "wow, that's a threat, and who has the right to judge and threaten here?" So saying you can't allow or disallow seems like the opposite of what you said then.

For ME, it's not a matter of allowing or disallowing, it's a matter of how I will treat the person in future. Someone writes what Wulf did (and has before) is someone I will show NO respect to in future, sans an apology or effort to make it right (which neither I nor anyone else will EVER get from Wulf!). It's a matter of "you crossed a line, I owe you no respect from

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:43 AM (P)

Aughhh! Just teasing, Byte...I just put that last one up and saw your new ones. I think the only thing I'd say in response is obviously it's NOT just in your head, if Mike saw something too, there's got to have been something subconscious in MY head, right? I'll try to be more aware of it, and just for myself, spend some time trying to figure out where the hell it comes from. I don't it to be like that.

And no need to apologize; now we've worked it out I can easily re-read it and see the tiredness and frustration. If you feel something like this coming from me in future, couldja tell me about it--if you don't have my e-mail, Riona does and can give it to you. I don't want stuff building up, in me or anyone else (except those we obviously can't stop from doing it, who will spew it all over the board [/snark]).

And hey, you're not allowed to call yourself a drama queen...that's us bipolars. ;o) You can be something else...hypersensitive if you want (that's actually a good AND bad thing, 'cuz it makes you more sensitive to people's feelings, eh?). But we're the drama queens--I THINK I'm less so now, because I know how I USED to be!

Now I am absolutely, positively OUTTA HERE! Good wishes to all...well, mostly all...

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:53 AM (P)

Quote:
What happened to him was the fault of others beyond his control; what he does with it is completely up to him.

Hello,

Personal responsibility. The mantra of the Wulf.

Reasons to talk to someone:

1) They are interesting.

2) They can educate you.

3) They create love.

4) You can teach them.

5) You have love to give them.

Reasons not to talk to someone:

1) You can't reach them in any way.

2) But they can hurt you or someone you care about.

I have run out of reasons to talk to some people here. I am terrible at remembering that fact. My recent signature line was created to remind me why, and to help me disengage. When I find myself responding, getting sucked in... there it is. Reminding me.

Quote:
Thank you for reminding me of Kane's name. I have a Word doc where I write down things now and then (hoo, BOY, you should see the "library" on Kane!)

Kane was among the first. He threatened to rape Niki and her roommate in Louisiana. That was something so bad that I find I don't need reminding of it. It's something burned into my heart. One day, Kane had some kind of personal problem and he left these boards. My philosophy says that I should forgive him sufficiently to wish him well. To do otherwise is to poison myself for his sake. But I found, when the time came, that I had no warmth for him at all. Not even the most basic warmth you feel for a fellow living creature. Realizing that, I felt sadness. Not for him, but selfishly for myself. I let someone break a piece of me that I valued. I let someone make me hate.

I realized, in retrospect, that this happened because I continued engaging with Kane long after our conversations had lost their purpose. I could not reach him. But he could reach me, and those I cared about. I should have disengaged when this became apparent, but I did not. And now there is a human being on this planet whose well-being I can no longer bring myself to care about.

No doubt, Kane was a broken man. Broken by some circumstance beyond my ken. No doubt, there were reasons for his utter terribleness. That no longer matters. The part of myself that I should love, the part of myself that was Kaneman... that part is dead.

I have recently come to the conclusion that I can't touch Wulf or Raptor. There is only one place to go from here if I continue engaging with them. I don't want to cut out another piece of my heart.

It is my lesson to myself. Once I realize that the five reasons to talk to someone are gone- once I realize the two reasons NOT to talk to someone are present- it's time to stop. Right away.

Before I hurt myself.

I believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe that words have power. Even bad, senseless, hurtful words. I have no armor if I listen to them without a purpose beyond getting angry. Possibly it is a weakness.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, and we may have to have a group hug here pretty soon, the way things are going.

Yup, definitely a group hug needed. Let's all edge towards one another awkwardly.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:28 AM (P)

Hi Niki, I can guess that the "threat" you perceived from me was the incident when Wish freaked out and I said "I learned some new info about Wish today, time will tell how I choose to use that info." I don't see that as a threat, I see that as a statement which doesn't have a defined direction, a "we'll see what happens between her and I as time goes by" thing, plus really, what could I possibly do to her over the Internet, I mean really. She's far away from me and I don't like hurting people, so I'm not going to Mongul horde her in her sleep or anything. I felt like you were really dramatic in your opposition to my statement in that instance. I mention it because you bring up an incident when I "threatened" someone and that's the only time I reckon you could be thinking of, and I only know that because you said something at the time, otherwise I really would have no idea.

Byte and I don't always agree with each other about everything by any means, so you won't necessarily find us defending each other's positions on stuff, though sometimes we might if we agree, but that should be taken seperately from defending the person themselves. Because she's a good friend of mine I tend to defend her, she seems to do likewise, so we've got this mutual fealty thing goin on here.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:43 AM (P)

I don't support personal attacks on anyone on the net. There are some people who think that it is their right to go on the personal attack with people whose views they abhor. They have no personal rules when it comes to fighting. They feel enabled and justified in saying whatever they feel like at the time in the heat of anger. "I wish you and your family would die a slow horrible death" etc. I wonder if they are like that in real life? It seems kind of childish to me, like they haven't gotten out of a 4 year old mindset.

Most of us have said mean things in the heat of an argument online. I know I have. Its hard to apologise straight away as well until you calm down.

Kane was a whole other ballgame. He wasn't saying things in the heat of the argument, he just said whatever foul, viscious thing that came into his head.

I think when you do get attacked online, its hard when others do not support you, or support the other person. It's a crappy feeling that fellow posters don't seem to mind that someone calls you a whore, a cunt or wishes you would die soon. I understand how niki feels, although she probably chose the word 'championed' unwisely.

Anyway, seems to have been some bad blood that needed airing. Hope all is back to normal RL lunacy soon.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:38 AM (P)

Well, I'd hug y'all but I think Byte might stab me, lol
(it's a villain thing...)

As for misliking people - I guess I should outright flat admit I'm just winding Wulfie up cause I can, cause it amuses me to do so, cause it's the only way I can return to him what he dishes out to others...
But hate him ?

Feh, in order to hate him, I'd have to give a fuck ABOUT him, and... I don't.

-Frem

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:35 PM (P)

Quote:
It's a crappy feeling that fellow posters don't seem to mind that someone calls you a whore, a cunt or wishes you would die soon. I understand how niki feels, although she probably chose the word 'championed' unwisely.

What? Just because I don't/try not to take sides doesn't mean I ignore when someone says something truly awful. I was there for Niki when kaneman was around and there was a whole kaneman AURaptor whozits team up, and when Pirate News said some pretty bad things too. I haven't ever said that Wulf telling Niki he's glad that she's going to die soon was acceptable.

Dammit. I had some small hope last night, but it was false. I'm beyond redemption and this still isn't working.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 1:39 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
It's a crappy feeling that fellow posters don't seem to mind that someone calls you a whore, a cunt or wishes you would die soon. I understand how niki feels, although she probably chose the word 'championed' unwisely.

What? Just because I don't take sides doesn't mean I ignore when someone says something truly awful. I was there for Niki when kaneman was around and there was a whole kaneman AURaptor whozits team up, and when Pirate News said some pretty bad things too. I haven't ever said that Wulf telling Niki he's glad that she's going to die soon was acceptable.

Dammit. I had some small hope last night, but it was false. I'm beyond redemption and this still isn't working.

Byte, it wasn't false hope, and don't let it go. I think you and Niki have it worked out and have reached an understanding; don't let others cloud that.

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:16 PM (P)

Anthony, it truly grieves me that you feel the way you described. I refuse to believe Kane or anyone else could be capable of doing that to you. Yes, it's sad when we come across people like that, but this is the INTERNET; I don't consider anything that happens there serious enough to touch me IRL. Bad feelings aren't good for us, you got that damned right, and some people really WORK at creating bad feelings. That's where armor comes in...like you said, reminding yourself not to get caught in the trap of responding, but more than that, to me at least. I just discount them as best I can; they're not REAL and they can't affect me. When I walk away from the computer, I only carry the funny or good things with me...I dismiss the rest. When I have problems with people in real life, I'd think about them, talk them ovr with someone if I can, and try to work them out. Admittedly I've never had anything IRL happen to me like lots of what I've had on the internet--I guess in real life I'd just walk away from such a person and avoid them. Yeah, I would; there's a woman at Crissy field, a dog walker, who's been very rude to me. Jim and I just take a wide berth around her, end of story.

But armor is vital to survive here. I came from another website that was kind of Kane squared, PLUS they went after me personally on a site I run for people battling mental illness, cooked up a whole plot against me, and that's when I left. I tried to show what they were doing, but here's where what Magons said comes into play; other people didn't believe me and took their side, some I really liked. That actually DID hurt a bit, I'll admit. Time to just leave, and I did. This place, trust me, is NOTHING in comparison!

I've been attacked personally on a couple of mental health websites--and one was by a person I'd met in real life, who I'd invited up here and we'd done a lot together. It was his mental illness, and in that case I DID feel like a fool; I'd given him money, done things for him, and thought we were friends. But I know he did it out of his own problems, so I just cut ties and wished him well. HIS life didn't come out very well, as I heard from others who knew him. I took no pleasure in it. And I'm still glad I befriended him at the time, he was a pretty lost soul.

Woooaaa Byte, slow down. It appears to me that Magons' comment was to sympathize with ME, not go after YOU. She merely said she knows how I feel--or possibly she meant she knows how I FELT when you went after me then Mike agreed. We worked it all out, and I don't think Magons meant any harm or was attacking you in any way. Just sympathizing with a feeling.

Riona, no, the "threat" I spoke of wasn't the one you mentioned. You said something to someone who snarked at Wulf that you weren't going to put up with that kind of stuff, and you'd go after them if you saw more of it. I wish Mike would look up the specific thread so we could talk about it, but maybe, all things considered, it's best he doesn't. This doesn't need to go any further; we've made peace. Hopefully you remember the instance and understand what I meant by "threat". It's no biggie.

As far as I'm concerned, if you choose to be on the internet, I learned long ago that you'd better grow a thick skin and not take it personally. It's too dangeroud, and I hope don't offend by saying that I worry about Byte because she does let people hurt her, even when they don't intend to sometimes. It concerns me, and I think one or two others as well, as we don't want to see her hurt. She chooses to be here, so nobody can take responsibility to keep her safe, but in our ways, we do try.

Anthony, I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again. My big (gigantic!) spark of understanding came at the dog park long ago. My dogs were off leash, as

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
This time I was given the gift of being able to SEE that it had nothing to do with me, she was upset about her daughter, probably felt guilty about leaving her to control the dog, and it was just reaction to blame me. Since that time, I try to see why stuff is coming from other people and see whether it's really about me or just about them. Most of the time it's the latter.

So very true Niki, I totally agree with that - that's a thing that's easy to miss. People lash out when they're hurt or feel marginalized and it's not always logical. I think Wulf is actually looking for approval in his own bassackwards clumsy way. He's trying to impress his hero (shall remain un-named) with his insights. If we believe him he was roughed up a lot as a kid, and it sounds like when he went home his parents almost had more feelings toward his attackers (pity, etc) than they did toward him - that would mess up a young mind. "Why do you seem to care more about them than me??" This is probably terribly obvious, but there seems to be a lot of transference going on between his parents and you.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:56 PM (P)

Quote:
there seems to be a lot of transference going on between his parents and you.

EW, what a terrible thought! Makes some sense, tho', given I'm an aging hippie. Pretty hard to put up with, given I'm not them and, from what I've heard, not even slightly LIKE them, but I see what you mean. Yuck. Doesn't mean I'll like him any more for going after me, and especially for attributing what he experienced to ALL "hippies" and "liberals", or that I'll take it with equanimity, but yeah, I never looked at it that way before, and you're probably right. I have to say again: YUCK!

KPO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:27 PM (P)

Quote:
With Wulf I honestly don't know, I think we could make it work though, because I see some good in him and I can tell he wants to be nice, he just doesn't seem to know how to.

I think he has issues, and I think his talent for alientating folk is near miraculous, but I don't see him as a bad person. It's hard for me to see anyone who likes firefly as a bad person.

It's not personal. It's just war.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:51 PM (P)

Well, this is something else.

I remember saying to bring the snacks, because I KNEW, not guessed, that it would get interesting.

Niki insulted me. Not something new, or strange. Her peanut gallery jumped on board.

Then it turned to insulting my child-rearing skills. Something not unexpected. I, somewhat humbly, have asked for advice on that subject, knowing that I don't know everything. (See Trouble thread).

And, as to be expected (or should have been), it became that my unborn daughter was condemned.

This, I will not abide. This, I will not suffer. Not that Frem would get it, but tantamount to being born "evil".

You are free to say what you will about me, my views... but, there are lines that you will not cross.

Namely, my daughter.

I could pretend that I feel bad for (verbally) punching Niki in the face over her comments. But that wouldn't be true. Because I don't feel bad, or guilty for it. She had it coming.

Yet, I will say, she is not the only one that earned it. Shes just the banner-carrier, for a legion of clowns.

Their beliefs, their actions, their ideologies have created the country and world we now live with. The world that my daughter is going to grow up in.

I have no patience for it anymore, no desire to waste the time trying to correct them of their beliefs. I can't, not anymore. Maybe I can't fix everything they've done, but I sure as hell can teach my daughter how to live in this world they created. Maybe even work to changing it for the better.

Think on these things I've said as you:

-pay your taxes
-walk in dangerous areas
-pay your bills
-watch, listen, to any media
-read the news
-take your kids to school

Is THIS the kind of world that you want for yourself, and for yours? The policies and the subjugation that has been foisted on your over the years... is this what you want? Where is the line you draw? Does it keep getting moved back? When do you actually stand your ground and say "NO MORE. This far, no further."?

Each individual has to find that line for themself. But for a lot of us, the line has been drawn, and we won't be moved.

Its time we stopped lying, and start telling the truth.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:28 PM (P)

Awww, lookit how cute he is when he thinks he knows the TRUTH about the world. Mix that with this "I will not stand" internet tough-guy talk, and you have a recipe for delusion.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:25 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

This, I will not abide. This, I will not suffer. Not that Frem would get it, but tantamount to being born "evil".

Not "born evil" - *MADE* evil. You missed the key point, as usual. You're the one actively working to make your offspring evil. You said you wanted to raise someone like Hit Girl from Kick-Ass.

Quote:

You are free to say what you will about me, my views... but, there are lines that you will not cross.

Or what? Seriously - what is it you imagine you're going to do about it? Get mad? Pout? Cry? Go tell your mommy?

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:52 PM (P)

A. You never "humbly" asked anything. You were given all kinds of good advice, virtually every word of which you dismissed haughtily and kept repeating you were gonna teach your daughter to be a badass, whatever anyone else said. Ergo, we worry about the little one.

B. What Mike said is accurate; nobody thinks your daughter was "born evil", even slightly. We're frightened for her because if you raise her as you've insisted you will, her life will not be a good one. It's BECAUSE she's not born evil (nobody is, in my opinion) that we fear for her; your singular intent seems to be that you will guarantee she can whoop everyone's ass, and to think of a baby being raised that way is horrific.

C. "I don't feel bad, or guilty for it." Of course you don't, you NEVER do. You have no compunction about attacking people, in this case damned close to as nastily as Kane did; you have no concept of other people's feelings and could care less about them, we know that full well. Again, if you instill that in your daughter, I fear for her.

To you, anyone who dares to disagree with you is nothing but a "clown"--actually the kindest thing you've called them/us. You may have one in real life, but here you show absolutely NO spark of humanity or compassion for anyone, which is your loss, nobody else's, but to eternally condescendingly trash everyone when you don't actually know ANYTHING outside your own little sphere of reference and your fantasies makes you not the kind of person who can lovingly raise a sane, healthy child. I sincerely hope you ARE different in real life; it means absolutely nothing to me, but I will always fear for your daughter, given the personna you present here.

I also agree with Mike insofar as exactly what do you plan to do if we "cross" that imaginary line of yours? That's the thing about the internet...you can't hurt us, you only have words as your weapons, and not very good ones at that.

You know what you are? In my opinion, a Visigoth. But an impotent one. You are ignorant and warlike, and little else.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

C. "I don't feel bad, or guilty for it." Of course you don't, you NEVER do. You have no compunction about attacking people, in this case damned close to as nastily as Kane did; you have no concept of other people's feelings and could care less about them, we know that full well. Again, if you instill that in your daughter, I fear for her.

And there's the rub. Wulfie does it, and doesn't feel bad about it in the least. Others get frustrated and lash out, and the later feel bad about it. Hell, I went way overboard dealing with Kaneman, and I feel bad about that. And I actually do wish him a long and full life of love and happiness, even though he could never wish the same on anyone else.

I wish Wulfie would find his path to happiness and fulfillment, but he veers away from it at every opportunity, it seems. And now he wants to drag a child down the road of hate with him.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

STORYMARK

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You said you wanted to raise someone like Hit Girl from Kick-Ass.

Whoah... he actually said that? Really?

Only a psychopath would watch that movie and think - "Hey, that looks like a good way to raise a child."

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

M52NICKERSON

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Well, this is something else.

I remember saying to bring the snacks, because I KNEW, not guessed, that it would get interesting.

Yup, racist morons starting thread is always fun, aparently even for the racist morons.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Niki insulted me. Not something new, or strange. Her peanut gallery jumped on board.

The community jumped on you because you are saying riddiculus things.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Then it turned to insulting my child-rearing skills. Something not unexpected. I, somewhat humbly, have asked for advice on that subject, knowing that I don't know everything. (See Trouble thread).

You asked for advice from people who you later call clowns. Now that is smart.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
And, as to be expected (or should have been), it became that my unborn daughter was condemned.

This, I will not abide. This, I will not suffer. Not that Frem would get it, but tantamount to being born "evil".

Like others have said, not condemned. Unless you fucking change and start looking at reality she may have problems. You asked for advice, well there it is.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
You are free to say what you will about me, my views... but, there are lines that you will not cross.

Namely, my daughter.

Or what tough guy, verbal insults?

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
I could pretend that I feel bad for (verbally) punching Niki in the face over her comments. But that wouldn't be true. Because I don't feel bad, or guilty for it. She had it coming.

Of course not, I'm sure you don't feel bad about much as you justify anything you do.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Yet, I will say, she is not the only one that earned it. Shes just the banner-carrier, for a legion of clowns.

Their beliefs, their actions, their ideologies have created the country and world we now live with. The world that my daughter is going to grow up in.

...and that world is worse then before?

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
I have no patience for it anymore, no desire to waste the time trying to correct them of their beliefs. I can't, not anymore. Maybe I can't fix everything they've done, but I sure as hell can teach my daughter how to live in this world they created. Maybe even work to changing it for the better.

That is how I feel about the likes of you. Sine your saying that you can't be bothered in trying to correct anyone any more I hope you are leaving, you are of little use.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Think on these things I've said as you:

-pay your taxes
-walk in dangerous areas
-pay your bills
-watch, listen, to any media
-read the news
-take your kids to school

Is THIS the kind of world that you want for yourself, and for yours? The policies and the subjugation that has been foisted on your over the years... is this what you want? Where is the line you draw? Does it keep getting moved back? When do you actually stand your ground and say "NO MORE. This far, no further."?

Yes, I want to pay my taxes. No, I don't want to walk in dangerous area's. Yes, I want to pay my bills. Yes, I want to be able to listen to any media. Yes, I want to read the news. Yes, I want to take my kids to school. So overall yes that is the world I want to live in.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Each individual has to find that line for themself. But for a lot of us, the line has been drawn, and we won't be moved.

Its time we stopped lying, and start telling the truth.

Fine, don't move. We will wave to you as the rest of us march forword.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

CUDA77

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You said you wanted to raise someone like Hit Girl from Kick-Ass.

Whoah... he actually said that? Really?

Only a psychopath would watch that movie and think - "Hey, that looks like a good way to raise a child."

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=44467&mid=7
94035

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For the record, my children will be considered "brown".

I intend (if I live long enough) to train them much like "HitGirl".

So Im getting a kick out of these responses.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

STORYMARK

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:30 PM (P)

Wow. He's even sicker than I thought. Hope someone in his neighborhood has Child Protective Services on speed-dial.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NIKI2

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:38 PM (P)

Wow Cuda, I missed that part. It's scary enough that Wulf will be raising this helpless little girl, but that he intends THAT for her is terrifying. Given he believes this outrageous "talk" is actually valid, if he goes on this way he'll just create a racist thug. How awful!

I can only hope with all my heart that being a father softens him and makes him more able to see reality, so that she has at least a BIT of a chance! Hey, I'm allowed to hope...

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:43 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Cuda77:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You said you wanted to raise someone like Hit Girl from Kick-Ass.

Whoah... he actually said that? Really?

Only a psychopath would watch that movie and think - "Hey, that looks like a good way to raise a child."

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=44467&mid=7
94035

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For the record, my children will be considered "brown".

I intend (if I live long enough) to train them much like "HitGirl".

So Im getting a kick out of these responses.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

You are skilled in the ways of Google-fu.

And yes, that was the thread I was thinking of. I remembered him posting that, and the rest of us just shaking our heads in disbelief that anyone would think that was an admirable way to raise a child.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

What? Just because I don't/try not to take sides doesn't mean I ignore when someone says something truly awful. I was there for Niki when kaneman was around and there was a whole kaneman AURaptor whozits team up, and when Pirate News said some pretty bad things too. I haven't ever said that Wulf telling Niki he's glad that she's going to die soon was acceptable.

Dammit. I had some small hope last night, but it was false. I'm beyond redemption and this still isn't working.

Byte you are so seriously sensitive that I think I'm going to think twice about weighing in on any conversation that you are involved in. Sorry, I actually usually appreciate your contribution, but you are too damned prickly.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Anthony, I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again. My big (gigantic!) spark of understanding came at the dog park long ago. My dogs were off leash, as they're supposed to be. A woman came along with a little girl (which I always think is dumb, given how rough dogs can get there) and a golden retriever on a leash. She gave the leash to her daughter so she could use the porta potty. While she was in there, my dogs ran up to the golden to say hi, the golden got excited and pulled the little girl over. Her mom came RAGING out of the porta potty and railed on me about controlling my dogs, etc. I used to get defensive when stuff like that happened, try to explain it wasn't my fault, and it would upset me a lot. This time I was given the gift of being able to SEE that it had nothing to do with me, she was upset about her daughter, probably felt guilty about leaving her to control the dog, and it was just reaction to blame me. Since that time, I try to see why stuff is coming from other people and see whether it's really about me or just about them. Most of the time it's the latter. The same is true of Kane, Wulf, and the other unpleasant people here...it truly has nothing to do with YOU, and to allow them to make you feel the way you do is, to me, unfair to you. You're a man of peace; what others do to you (especially here on the internet) because of their own problems should have NOTHING to do with you; it's not about you, they don't care about you, and you can't harm them on the internet any more than vice versa, unless you let them. I refuse to believe you've lost a part of your heart, I hope you can have the same epiphany I had so it doesn't happen in future, I really do. You're too good and too valuable for that!

Lots of wisdom there. It's taken me a long time to work that stuff out, actually I'm still not completely there. I find it has been helpful with family members who are difficult, to try and step into their shoes, to not take it personally.

And yes, spot on about just trying to empathise with you. I have had similar experiences online and I am now very careful about what I disclose about my personal life - which is my armour.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:56 PM (P)

Wulf, you brought up your daughter on another thread. You brought that topic here, so maybe you've learned a lesson about the internet and posting personal stuff.

Anyway, back to the rest of your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
And, as to be expected (or should have been), it became that my unborn daughter was condemned.

Eh, no I think your child rearing skills were condemned. I don't think anybody here has wished your daughter ill, they just probably hope you gain a bit of sense while you are parenting her.

Quote:
I could pretend that I feel bad for (verbally) punching Niki in the face over her comments. But that wouldn't be true. Because I don't feel bad, or guilty for it. She had it coming.

Yet, I will say, she is not the only one that earned it. Shes just the banner-carrier, for a legion of clowns.

Their beliefs, their actions, their ideologies have created the country and world we now live with. The world that my daughter is going to grow up in.

I have no patience for it anymore, no desire to waste the time trying to correct them of their beliefs. I can't, not anymore. Maybe I can't fix everything they've done, but I sure as hell can teach my daughter how to live in this world they created. Maybe even work to changing it for the better.

Yeah, as I pointed out earlier, you seem to be the kind of person who thinks its okay to go on a most personal viscious attack if you think it is justified. You have no rules around fighting. You perceive insult and (coz I think this is more to the point) blame niki for things that she cannot be responsible for ie the state of the country and you feel that entitles you to attack her. Thats some seriously disturbed shit you have going on there. If you want to work on changing things for the better, you might want to start right there. Start working on you.

Quote:

-pay your taxes
-walk in dangerous areas
-pay your bills
-watch, listen, to any media
-read the news
-take your kids to school

Are you saying to do these things or to not do these things?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Quote:
Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Think on these things I've said as you:

-pay your taxes
-walk in dangerous areas
-pay your bills
-watch, listen, to any media
-read the news
-take your kids to school

Is THIS the kind of world that you want for yourself, and for yours? The policies and the subjugation that has been foisted on your over the years... is this what you want? Where is the line you draw? Does it keep getting moved back? When do you actually stand your ground and say "NO MORE. This far, no further."?

Yes, I want to pay my taxes. No, I don't want to walk in dangerous area's. Yes, I want to pay my bills. Yes, I want to be able to listen to any media. Yes, I want to read the news. Yes, I want to take my kids to school. So overall yes that is the world I want to live in.

Oh right, so he thinks that those things are bad and need to be changed.

Wulf wants a world where people

do not pay their taxes
- do not walk in dangerous areas
- do not pay their bills
- do not watch, listen, to any media
- do not read the news
- do not take their kids to school

Strange kind of world

KWICKO

Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:36 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Wulf wants a world where people

- do not pay their taxes
- do not walk in dangerous areas
- do not pay their bills
- do not watch, listen, to any media
- do not read the news
- do not take their kids to school

Strange kind of world

There's a reason he doesn't want people watching or listening to any media, reading the news, or taking their kids to school: an informed populace is a more thoughtful populace, and Wulfie's right-wing dream world can't stand up to more informed, thoughtful people. The right wing's dream of the future absolutely requires an uneducated, uninformed, compliant population.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:49 AM (P)

Hi Niki,
Now that you mention it I do remember saying that, and its not the only time. I recall saying something more threatening to Kane a while back when he said something I couldn't abide. I'm not going to deny that I threaten in this fashion if I think someone is being mean over the top, even if the person they're being mean to has been mean to them in the past. I've done it before and I will do it again and I'm not going to make excuses for it. Just know that threats I make are pretty null and void, its just me getting angry and talking, I don't have the ability to track Kane down and beat him up in real life, so if I say it online know that its just talk but it just means that I'm angry at someone.

Case in point: Wulf, what you said to Niki about hoping she dies soon was really yucky. I don't want to see that luh suh again because wishing someone dead is really mean and I don't want to see it again.

Of course since my threats don't mean anything will actually happen they won't stop Wulf, Kane or anyone else from doing anything, but still.

I think you guys's transferrance theory is a valid one, good thinking.

If person A mentions their kid in one thread, it doesn't give person B the right to talk about their kid negatively/bring their kid into a fight in another thread, at least not blatently. Mentioning your child in one thread doesn't mean s/he is fair game in another thread which is hostile. If you're going to talk trash involving someone's kids, do it sideways, because doing it blatently is just bad form.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:23 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I'm not going to deny that I threaten in this fashion if I think someone is being mean over the top, even if the person they're being mean to has been mean to them in the past. I've done it before and I will do it again and I'm not going to make excuses for it. Just know that threats I make are pretty null and void, its just me getting angry and talking, I don't have the ability to track Kane down and beat him up in real life, so if I say it online know that its just talk but it just means that I'm angry at someone.

What about leading by example?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:25 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

There's a reason he doesn't want people watching or listening to any media, reading the news, or taking their kids to school: an informed populace is a more thoughtful populace, and Wulfie's right-wing dream world can't stand up to more informed, thoughtful people. The right wing's dream of the future absolutely requires an uneducated, uninformed, compliant population.

I sometimes get the sense that people like Wulf really want to live in a dangerous world, some sort of fantasy place like out of a western, where men were men and cows were scared. ;)

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:12 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I'm not going to deny that I threaten in this fashion if I think someone is being mean over the top, even if the person they're being mean to has been mean to them in the past. I've done it before and I will do it again and I'm not going to make excuses for it. Just know that threats I make are pretty null and void, its just me getting angry and talking, I don't have the ability to track Kane down and beat him up in real life, so if I say it online know that its just talk but it just means that I'm angry at someone.

What about leading by example?

...or just not playing internet tough guy!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NIKI2

Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:57 AM (P)

Quote:
I sometimes get the sense that people like Wulf really want to live in a dangerous world, some sort of fantasy place like out of a western, where men were men and cows were scared. ;)

Priceless! What's most amusing about it is his choice of avatars: MAL!

And thanx for your kind words...as far as not getting there yet, heavens, who HAS?! That's part of buddhism, we KNOW we'll never completely get there, it's the "getting there" that's important. Sounds like you're on a good path, which is neat.

Riona, I suppose I just don't like people threatening one another, that's just a personal preference. It's been my experience that it is pretty much only people like Wulf and Kane who threaten; people say nasting things to and about one another, snark, mock, etc., etc., but for me (just me, understand) actually threatening is something different. Given Wulf just did exactly that by saying he won't stand for it anymore, for some reason to me that is more aggressive than the usual "nyah, nyah, you're an asshole". I can't say why, it just is. That's why it stuck in my mind. I gotta ask, tho', come to think of it; what's wrong with "I'm mad at you", flat out? It's honest...never mind, as I said, that's just me.

Got a question: Several times you've written to say things "sideways"--I don't know what that means, could you explain it to me? Always confuses me 'cuz I'm not sure what you mean.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:09 AM (P)

Hello,

I think she means an implied, indirect insult.

There was an earlier discussion about passive-aggressive insults which I believe share the same DNA.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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