Gender and Violence and Blame
POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 20:14
VIEWED: 35185
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Thought I would start a new thread that could take us away from gun topics and into wider discussions.
Discuss as you will.
Here is my contribution.
Clerics who blame women for being victims of violence.
Quote:
Women bring violence on themselves: priest
Date
December 28, 2012 - 5:55AM
A Catholic priest has sparked outrage in Italy by claiming women bring domestic violence on themselves by dressing provocatively and neglecting housework, Italian media report.
"How often do we see girls and mature women going around scantily dressed and in provocative clothes?" Piero Corsi said in a Christmas message posted on the door of his church in the small town of San Terenzio in northwest Italy.
"They provoke the worst instincts, which end in violence or sexual abuse. They should search their consciences and ask: did we bring this on ourselves?" it read.
The leaflet, a copy of which was posted online sparking a wave of outrage across the country, said the 118 women killed in acts of domestic violence in Italy in 2012 had pushed men to their limits.
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"Is it possible that all of a sudden men have gone mad? We don't believe it," Corsi wrote.
"The fact is that women are increasingly provocative, they become arrogant, they believe themselves to be self-sufficient and end up exacerbating the situation," he said.
"Children are abandoned to their own devices, homes are dirty, meals are cold or fast food, clothes are filthy," he added.
The region's bishop, Luigi Ernesto Palletti, stepped in as the story went viral and said Corsi's words were "unacceptable and go against the church's common feeling on the matter".
Amid protests from women's rights and anti-violence campaigners, Corsi was widely reported by Italian media to have apologised to his congregation and handed in his resignation.
He later denied the reports, saying a resignation letter sent to news agencies was "probably a fake", adding that he was going to "take a rest" but had no intention of stepping down.
"I don't know whether you're a queer or not, but what do you feel when you see a naked woman?" he asked a reporter for Rai Radio.
"Are women themselves not causing harm by unveiling themselves like this?"
The mayor of San Terenzio said the message had left the town's residents "dumbfounded and indignant", while an elderly female resident told Sky Italia television that Corsi "should keep a low profile as he has lots of secrets he would not wish to come out".
Reminds me of the Muslim cleric in Australia who said something similar a few years ago.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women
-for-sex-attacks/story-e6frg6nf-1111112419114
And then there are increasing numbers of gang rapes on women in India. This woman was blamed as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/why-india-bad-for-women
The best bit was that a local news cameraman filmed it for 45 minutes without intervening.
And in Scotland
http://aberdeenvoice.com/2012/11/students-attack-victim-blaming-cultur
e-around-sexual-violence/
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There are people who, when confronted with repressed urges, will resort to violence, because they have learned violence as an acceptable method of coping. Lots of sick puppies out there.
On the other hand, I hesitate to read "don't walk alone" as a subtle form of blaming the victim. There are certain things that are just common sense, given the imperfect world we live in. It's like "lock your door," or "put on your seatbelt." Don't wear low necklines or kiss your gay boyfriend in Muslim countries or fundie churches. Don't flaunt your interracial relationship at a KKK rally. There are people who don't know how to handle that. If you know some people are weak and/or wrong in certain areas, don't push their buttons, just because you think they ought not to have those buttons. I'm not saying if you provoke them, you deserve what you get. But it makes sense to not provoke them or give them an opportunity/excuse to go nuts until you're sure you can be safe.
-----
Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.
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I have a large amount of experiance handling Domestic Violence cases and I've had the privilage of working with some great women from the Rape Crisis Center, DOVE program, and Victim's Assistance. Here's what I've learned:
Do women bring the violence upon themselves? Yes, yes they do.
Is it because they dress sexy or act slutty? No.
Why? Its because they make really, really stupid choices.
First of all they choose to date and/or marry violent assholes. Make no mistake, 9 times out of 10 they know that person well enough to know they get violent, yet they choose to pursue or continue the relationship anyway.
Second, they don't protect themselves. Guy hits girl, girl forgives guy, guy hits girl, girl forgives guy, guy hits girl, police called and guy arrested, girl forgives guy and asks me to drop charges, guy hits girl...
The first time they hit a woman the woman should END the relationship. Marriage, kids, whatever it is OVER. If you choose not to then you are responsible for the consequences of that choice.
There are lots of guys out there that don't hit women, so if your with a guy that does hit you...its on you.
Now there are lots of reasons why women stay with men who abuse them. Sometimes they are raised that way, some think they can 'change' the man, some think they deserve it, some think they can't do better. Women need to confront these things head on instead of pretending that this is all on the men.
I encourage my police to document everything on a DV case. Why? Because my best witness will probably flake out.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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I note for the record that in ten years of prosecuting Domestic Violence cases ALL the female victims have ONE thing in common:
The do not own a firearm. I have NEVER met a women who owns a firearm who has been the victim of Domestic Violence. And I mean really own, as in its their gun, they bought it or have it for themselves. (Not fake own it as in my husband beat the crap out of me and got convicted of DV so he can't own or possess a gun, but I love him so we're back together and he loves to hunt so we'll just say the guns belong to me but golly I don't even know what kind or gun it is or what bullets go in it or anything.)
Lots of the men own weapons. I've taken and destroyed hundreds of guns from the men.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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I also want to note that Domestic Violence is not only a man to women problem.
Female on male and same sex Domestic Violence is simply poorly reported, poorly document, disrespected, and often ignored. I've found no difference in those few cases that actually proceed to trial. They are identical in nearly every respect to traditional DV's and people should treat them (case and victim alike) with the respect and professionalism they deserve.
I actually had another Prosecutor argue with me that men could NOT be victims of Domestic Violence unless they are gay. That's just stupid, typical stupid bias attitudes that sometimes enter into gender and race discussions.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
There are lots of guys out there that don't hit women, so if your with a guy that does hit you...its on you.
Does all the blame go to the woman? No. This is not a 50-50 or 70-30 kind of event. There's responsibility on both sides.
If a woman chooses to stay with an abuser, she's 100% responsible for getting abused. If a man chooses to abuse a woman, he's 100% responsible for abusing the woman.
Keep in mind that while I prefer to prosecute the person who committed the abuse I have and will prosecute the victim for taking actions that allow the abuse to continue.
What!?! How?
Yep, man beats woman. Police respond. Woman says man beat me. In Court woman says man didn't beat me, 'I fell down' or 'police made me write that statement', they love that one...none of which does not explain my bloody knose and bruises. Charges dismissed against man, charges for Falsification filed against woman. Why? Because she either lied in court or lied to the police, either way she lied and that is a crime. BTW, a conviction for Falsification kills her credibilty for any future DV claim (the 'bitch be lie'n' defense).
You should also consider that Juries, for whatever reason, hate Domestic Violence cases. Had a guy kick in a locked door to his baby momma ex-girlfriend's house and go after her with a chef's knife (a big, heavy kitchen knife, razor sharp with an 11" blade, really, like a $500 knife, nicest knife I've seen except on Iron Chef). The Defense was the classic 'bitch deserved it' defense...also known as 'blame the victim'. Jury hung...5-3 for Not Guilty. All three men wanted to convict. My nice moms, nurse, school teachers said 'she really did deserve it'. Go figure.
Had a Jury tell me once on a Not Guilty, yes she was assaulted and yes, he pulled her hair out by the roots, but we think she embellished how much it really hurt (in other words, you proved your case, but we're going to ignore that). That from a trial with the most compelling victim testimony I've ever had. I even had her hair as evidence. Blood, bruises, medical records, a proven history of violence, really great pictures...Not Guilty. I've won more then my share, but losses like this piss me off. I reported her husband to Homeland Security after the trial was over...that made me feel better.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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I think you're scoping this discussion a little too narrowly, HERO. Males, in general, are more violent than women in almost ALL societies. But males are also violent against other males, and males also suffer from high victim-hood rates due to other males.
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Well, I got about as far as "A Catholic priest" and knew what the rest would be. Scanned a bit, but haven't had my breakfast yet, so reading the whole thing would make me gag.
Bear in mind the whole Catholic church is centered around the idea of keeping women DOWN, and always hsa been, so there's no surprise there.
Doesn't mean it isn't sick, because it is. But I expect no less.
Any chance we can get back to the original discussion, or has the non-hero, non-lawyer taken over the entire thread?
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Conclusion: it happens everywhere.
Alternate conclusion: teach all women to kick major amounts of ass.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are people who, when confronted with repressed urges, will resort to violence, because they have learned violence as an acceptable method of coping. Lots of sick puppies out there.
On the other hand, I hesitate to read "don't walk alone" as a subtle form of blaming the victim. There are certain things that are just common sense, given the imperfect world we live in. It's like "lock your door," or "put on your seatbelt." Don't wear low necklines or kiss your gay boyfriend in Muslim countries or fundie churches. Don't flaunt your interracial relationship at a KKK rally. There are people who don't know how to handle that. If you know some people are weak and/or wrong in certain areas, don't push their buttons, just because you think they ought not to have those buttons. I'm not saying if you provoke them, you deserve what you get. But it makes sense to not provoke them or give them an opportunity/excuse to go nuts until you're sure you can be safe.
On the other hand, I am A-OK with gay couples kissing each other on the lawn outside the Mormon temple. Sometimes they get arrested, but for seriously - Flaunt that! Go guys! (and girls)
Although if they start slobbering down each other's throats or the hands go anywhere near the backside, thigh, or down the pants area, I'm... gonna go somewhere else. XP
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All I'll say is that well-taught martial arts classes are a good thing.
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Interesting insights Hero.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:Teach all women to depend on each other, not some asshole guy who's going to exact his pound of flesh. SOME of those women would LOVE to be major ass-kickers. I'm all for division of labor, and besides, I'm too old to be an ass-kicker. If they will do the ass-kicking for me, I will be the herbalist and gardener and computer-builder. (I'm learning!)
Conclusion: it happens everywhere. Alternate conclusion: teach all women to kick major amounts of ass.
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Quote:Interesting, but it is not the possession of a gun in and of itself I conjure, rather the mentality that unacceptable shit will not be tolerated, and the choices that stem from it (as well as a perceptible attitude that is recognizable to predators as 'risky').
Originally posted by Hero:
I have NEVER met a women who owns a firearm who has been the victim of Domestic Violence.
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Quote:No you're not. Well, you may not want to get into regular weekend bar fights, but to old for Tai-Chi? Balderdash.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
besides, I'm too old to be an ass-kicker.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
All I'll say is that well-taught martial arts classes are a good thing.
Guns, not fists. I've had victims with self-defense backgrounds. They don't fight back or if they do fight back the Defense claims she started it and the poor fella was defending himself from the girl gone wild...also known as the 'bitch be crazy' defense.
Yep, the 'bitch' family of defenses. Lie, crazy, deserved it...and the 'bitch, what you talkin bout' defense where they argue that not only did it never happen, the fella has an alibi and has no fracking idea what the hell this is all about.
I regret the use of the term 'bitch' but its a legal term of art in this context.
As for guns...I've had the cases where the girl shoots the 'bastard'. Then we get into the 'son of a bitch deserved it' defense...also known as battered woman syndrome. I like battered woman syndrome because I can use it to explain to a Jury why the woman stayed with a repeat abuser or why she is changing her story on the stand. This past year has seen a lot of science become available for the using battered woman against an abuser rather then in defense of a female charged with murder. I'm urging our local abuse agencies to look into this from the female on male perspective to explain why men don't report abuse.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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Quote:The POINT of a martial arts is that you will probably not need to use it, or if you do, not to the extent of 'beating up' someone.
Originally posted by Hero:
Guns, not fists. I've had victims with self-defense backgrounds. They don't fight back or if they do fight back the Defense claims she started it and the poor fella was defending himself from the girl gone wild...also known as the 'bitch be crazy' defense.
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Women stay with abusers because they don't have other options (or they don't see that they have options), not because they "can't" beat up (or shoot) their partners. Sometimes the barriers are financial, sometimes the barriers are cultural, and sometimes psychological, sometimes legal, but rarely is abuse about not knowing martial arts or how to use a gun.
In fact, for a better example of male violence, you might want to look at child abuse. Is blaming the child a realistic approach? Would teaching the child how to use a gun be the correct remedy?
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Quote:No, but me learning martial arts put an end to family violence in MY house. And no fight was even necessary.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Would teaching the child how to use a gun be the correct remedy?
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I agree with Chris, you are never too old to deliver a much needed ass kicking.
There's a reason why a common expectation of martial arts masters is of a little old man, half bowed over with arthritis. No reason it can't be a little old woman either.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverMessWithGranny
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Hello,
When I was in Elementary school, I experienced violence almost exclusively at the hands of a female, with a single noted exception.
When I was in Middle School, I experienced violence almost exclusively at the hands of males.
In both cases, I feel I was being victimized by people who felt powerless or had been bullied, and were using the violence as a means to reclaim their power using the conduit of a safe adversary who could not substantively oppose them.
I have also had to deal with sexual abusers, exclusively male.
The violence and abuses I endured in my life were sometimes at the hands of trusted figures responsible for my protection. Sometimes they were simply overlooked by trusted figures responsible for my protection.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:Those responsible for MY abuse were mostly put on notice that it was discontinuing, a couple of times they were handed an elbow sandwich.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The violence and abuses I endured in my life were sometimes at the hands of trusted figures responsible for my protection. Sometimes they were simply overlooked by trusted figures responsible for my protection.
Did you get any such closure with yours, Tony?
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Hello,
I can credit martial arts for stopping my female assailant.
I should say that I have no talent for martial arts. I enjoy martial arts, but I enjoy a lot of things that I have no talent for.
One thing I'll always remember, that my instructor said ad nauseum: "Every block should be a strike." Which, you know, I'm not sure that's always appropriate. But it changed a young child's static blocks into a more active blocking maneuver that caused pain to the attacker. So she stopped hitting me, and went on to employ emotional abuses and manipulation instead. "Closure" on that score did not come until I was an adult, and I could perceive how totally wrecked this person was psychologically. Closure for me equalled understanding and forgiveness. I have not been able to forgive or understand all of my abusers. Only most of them.
The pedophiles are people I haven't been able to forgive or understand. The only emotions I associate with those experiences are shame. There was never any justice or bold standing up for myself on that score. Merely evasion and silence.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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It is indeed possible to be too young, too small, too old, or too sick to deliver a proper ass-kicking, and anyone who thinks so is none of the above at the moment.
Nobody knows this more than my hubby, who was a physically intimidating young man- a 6'3" construction worker with lightening-fast reflexes, quick eyes, and ability to read people honed by years of physical and emotional abuse, and war experience at a young age. One of the things he constantly gripes about are the stereotypes of the crippled-but-effective sensei or the slip of a young woman who takes on a half-dozen men twice her size. Mass counts. So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.
Like I said- division of labor. Not everyone is able to be an ass-kicker, and not everyone should have to be.
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But surely neither mass and strength are everything.
Look, I was being more facetious than anything. I didn't mean to imply or suggest anything.
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Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But surely neither mass and strength are everything.
Look, I was being more facetious than anything. I didn't mean to imply or suggest anything.
Hello,
Nothing is everything, and I think everyone who wanted to know it, knew that you were being faceitious.
Signy is right that cooperation is vital. Not everyone is going to be a good warrior, or will even be remotely interested.
The 'fighters' need not be the biggest and most massive, however. Nor strongest, nor youngest, nor most healthy.
As in all occupations, the best fighters are the ones who have an interest and aptitude for the craft. They may not be what anyone imagines when they think of a fighter. They may meet every stereotype or defy all expectations. They may be 90 pound slight women or 300 pound muscular male giants. They may be old people or young adults. Arthritis sufferers or perfectly healthy individuals.
And there may be heavyweight musclemen who have no desire to fight and there may be grandmothers who feel well enough and capable.
Stereotypes are for suckers.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).
Hello,
In my classes, 80% was training and motivation. At least.
I can't tell you how many times I saw arthritis-ridden pensioners and little women take apart powerful, towering opponents.
I myself am a large, powerful male in my thirties, and I'm half-useless in a tussle. People just assume all kinds of things about you, and so my adult life has been largely free from violence.
This is good, because my childhood had too much violence and I don't miss it.
If I was out with friends and violence happened, I'd probably be the one the baddies were kicking the crap out of while my smaller, less strong, sometimes older, and often less healthy friends were the real threats.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:Who wins in a truck vs. motorcycle confrontation?
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But surely neither mass and strength are everything.
In my case (motorcycle) ME, because I dropped down a gear & pressed it to get out of there, leaving the truck (& nearby cars) to pile up as they wished. THAT was from my martial arts training. If not I would have surely died that day.
It's NOT always about 'bigger'.
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Quote:For a LOT.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Mass counts.
All things being equal, the physically stronger opponent wins every time.
It's your job to make things unequal.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is indeed possible to be too young, too small, too old, or too sick to deliver a proper ass-kicking, and anyone who thinks so is none of the above at the moment.
Nobody knows this more than my hubby, who was a physically intimidating young man- a 6'3" construction worker with lightening-fast reflexes, quick eyes, and ability to read people honed by years of physical and emotional abuse, and war experience at a young age. One of the things he constantly gripes about are the stereotypes of the crippled-but-effective sensei or the slip of a young woman who takes on a half-dozen men twice her size. Mass counts. So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.
Like I said- division of labor. Not everyone is able to be an ass-kicker, and not everyone should have to be.
I totally feel ya on this - sure I was a terror in my Glory Days, but those were twenty and more YEARS ago...
IMHO Situational Awareness trumps everything, cause that is what allows you to load the odds in your favor, but many folk have psychological issues and blind spots which make that at best, problematic.
Speakin of division of labor, though - back in the day I mostly played the role of Tanker, drawing attention onto myself and trusting in my defenses while my "Bullygirls" actually did the thrashing (kinda like Mal and Zoe in that bar in The Train Job), and so it eventually got around that no matter what she looks like, any girl in my company is there as muscle, and potentially dangerous - as of late I've played on this to protect some who are very much NOT dangerous (except maybe to themselves) by exploiting that assumption - as my sensei pounded into my head the hard way, preventing a fight from ever starting counts as a victory, right ?
Funny cultural bit - worth remembering I lived in a very rough neighborhood and happened to for a lot of it the only "cracker" in the neighborhood, so yeah I know a bit about thug/ghetto culture sure, and while not particularly fond of the musical form, I introduced some locals to a bit of good advice from UTFO, cause they totally had a point...
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).
I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.
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Quote:There is more than one kind of violence. Some people only pick on the completely defenseless.... young children, the comatose, (yes, seriously) the elderly etc These people don't expect resistance of any sort, and any resistance - no matter how incompetent- will stop them. A little bit of karate, boxing, MMA, even wrestling... anything that teaches you to use your weight and improves your timing... should help.
I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.
OTOH, there are an awful lot of people who are used to fighting. They've thrown punches, and taken as many. Some have taken knife wounds or bullets. Momentary pain won't shock them, and landing a few blows won't surprise them into stopping. They know how to use their weight, because they've fought before. Don't count on a few years of training to neutralize their advantage in weight, because they're more experienced than you.
You need to be highly trained and in top form, and used to street fighting, before you could win in a straight-up fight. Not for someone weak, small, sick, out of shape, etc. And if your opponent is a gang member, you better stay out of their turf afterwards because you will never, ever be safe. Your best defense is to be part of a militarized group.
ETA: I just saw the thread on MMA. There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows. But as has been noted, certain things are never done in competition because they're permanently damaging. That is why I said you have to be used to STREET FIGHTING.
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So, I'm sure some of you have seen this...
Quote:
NEW DELHI/SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A woman whose gang rape provoked protests and rare national debate about violence against women in India died from her injuries on Saturday, prompting promises of action from a government that has struggled to respond to public outrage.
The unidentified 23-year-old medical student suffered a brain injury and massive internal damage in the December 16 attack and died in hospital in Singapore where she had been taken for treatment....
The woman, beaten, raped and thrown out of a moving bus, had been flown to Singapore in a critical condition by the Indian government on Thursday.
....
"Our words shriveled in the face of what she'd been subjected to by the six men travelling on that bus, who spent an hour torturing and raping her, savagely beating up her male friend."
...
The victim and her male friend were returning home from the cinema, media reports say, six men on their bus beat them with metal rods and repeatedly raped the woman. Media said a rod was used in the rape, causing internal injuries. Both were thrown from the bus. The male friend survived. The six suspects have all been arrested and are in custody. The attack has put gender issues centre stage in Indian politics. Issues such as rape, dowry-related deaths and female infanticide have rarely entered mainstream political discourse
....
The outcry over the attack caught the government off-guard and it was slow to react. It took a week for Singh to make a statement [Kind of like the NRA on the Newtown shooting] on the attack, infuriating many protesters who saw it as a sign of a government insensitive to the plight of women.
The prime minister, a stiff 80-year-old technocrat who speaks in a low monotone, has struggled to channel the popular outrage in his public statements and convince critics that his eight-year-old government will now take concrete steps to improve the safety of women.
"The Congress managers were ham-handed in their handling of the situation that arose after the brutal assault on the girl. The crowd management was poor," a lawmaker from Singh's ruling Congress party said on condition of anonymity.
Commentators and sociologists say the rape has tapped into a deep well of frustration many Indians feel over what they see as weak governance and poor leadership on social issues.
A global poll by the Thomson Reuters Foundation in June found that India was the worst place to be a woman because of high rates of infanticide, child marriage and slavery.
from Yahoos news
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Quote:Good schools will throw any & everything at you, and a serious student will study crazy unorthodox stuff on his or her own.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows.
I once had an idiot wanting to fight me on the street, so I picked up a garbage can & pushed it at him and just as he was tossing it aside I kicked him in his knee (not to break it- just to hurt him a bit). Thus endeth the confrontation.
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Quote:Breaks my damn heart. If I say any more about this I'm afraid I'll stray into dark territory.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, I'm sure some of you have seen this...
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Quote:Hey Signy,
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows.
I think this may be a natural, but casual observation. In my school there was a general disdain among the instructors for karate for this very reason. Kung fu is generally understood as a "round" form and karate a "straight" form. Of course my kung fu training partook of both styles, but there was a definite bias toward the round forms. But I've learned that every school is gonna have some other school that it looks down on and uses as a negative example (they really do say stuff like "our kung fu is stronger").
Kung fu training would be kinda dumbass if what you're saying were actually true. When you begin your training, and for the first several years, it is all a bunch of formalism and choreography. But as you advance in your training it becomes far more focused on principles of physics and energy. Near the end of my training I was learning how to make of my whole body, or just my lower arm, say, a coiled spring of sorts, I was learning how the muscles and bones interlock and sorta pile on each other and then unpack/uncoil for explosive effect. This was stuff I really couldn't imagine before my training, nor even notice for the first few years of training. But when I look at my cat jumping up on the kitchen counter, now, I see those principles at work. You learn that all real strength is core strength and you learn how to keep from falling down and then if you have to fall, fall perfectly.
Another thing that happens in training is that your whole body becomes astonishingly more resilient. There were punches I took near the end of my training that I'm quite certain would have broken bones years before. It's kinda bizarre, really, the amount of punishment the human body in peak condition can take. I also stopped bruising entirely. I get bruises now, but it's been over ten years since my training days.
Sorry for the threadjack.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hello,
I hope I would never let such a thing happen were I aware of it.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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http://now.msn.com/priest-says-that-women-bring-abuse-on-themselves
Hello,
My favorite comment was, "So, are little boys too provocative, also?"
Blame the victim is a favorite game amongst abusers wherever you go.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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CHRIS, HK... I have to say my experience with judo was fun, but short. But I experienced it as a kind of dance. When I was paired up with a very strong guy, there wasn't much I could do unless he relaxed a bit, and when I was paired up with a much smaller woman, I had to kind of give her a little assist in throwing me because I could have been a complete sack of potatoes and she wasn't EVER gonna budge me! And when I tried to throw hubby, just for fun, all he did was bend over to accommodate my tugging and laugh.
So what I'm thinking is that you can't just have a few years or a little training to engage in a street fight, you need a LOT of years.
Also, I have the impression... and please correct me if I'm wrong... that certain moves just AREN'T DONE... gouging an eye or breaking a knee for example... they're a little TOO effective. Given that, I wonder if the expert is a little prohibited from areas of defense by long years of deliberate avoidance.
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So anyway, to get back to the thread topic.... You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.
However, our history is replete with examples of (mostly) men in gangs or battalions, beating up and killing each other, women, and children.
As an aside, 90% of people killed in war are civilians, and of those, 75% are women and children. (Doing the arithmetic... roughly 68% of total war casualties are women and children.)
Men and women tend to respond to threat differently. When faced with stress, many men go into "fight or flight". For decades, "fight or flight" was the ONLY recognized and studied reaction. There was a great deal of work done on how the sympathetic nervous system is activated, which hormones come into play, how adrenaline is reversed and so forth. Nobody thought to study women. When someone FINALLY looked at how women actually respond (instead of assuming that women are "just like" men) they found that when faced with stress, many women go into "tend and befriend" mode.
Quote:
The dominant model of the human responses to stress has been the fight or flight response. In response to threat, humans (and other animals) can become aggressive and confront a stressor (fight) or flee either literally or through avoidant coping, such as social withdrawal or substance abuse. From the standpoint of human beings, however, this analysis of stress responses is incomplete. Another tendency is to affiliate, that is, to come together in groups in threatening times.[1] This tend and befriend response refers to the fact that people often manage threats by caring for offspring and seeking social support in time of stress.[2][3]
Biological bases of tend and befriend
Many scientists now believe that there is an affiliative neurocircuitry that prompts affiliation especially in response to stress. Research suggests that this system regulates social approach behavior, much as hunger, thirst, or sexual drives are biologically regulated. A biological basis for this regulation appears to be oxytocin.[4]
Oxytocin has been tied to a broad array of social relationships and activities, including peer bonding, sexual activity, and affiliative preferences.[4] Oxytocin is released in humans in response to at least some stressors, especially those that may trigger affiliative needs. Oxytocin prompts affiliative behavior, including maternal tending and social contact with peers.[5] Thus affiliation under stress serves tending needs, including protective response towards offspring, and may also take the form of befriending, namely seeking social contact for one's own protection, the protection of offspring, and the protection of the social group. These social responses to threat reduce biological stress responses, including elevated heart rate, blood pressures, and hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis stress responses, such as cortisol.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tend_and_befriend
It's possible that the largest determining factor between men and women is average levels of oxytocin. I can imagine that people are simply born with different levels of oxytocin... there are studies that the asocial behavior of autistic children can be alleviated with oxytocin nasal spray.
I wonder if what Frem thinks of as "the dark spark" and what Byte assumes is sociopathy is simply low levels of oxytocin, which I imagine is experienced as complete lack of "warm and fuzzies" towards people and/or other living creatures, an internal coldness and absence of empathy.
---------------------
Which brings me to... upbringing.
Males brought up to be "male"... less mother-child contact, harsher consequences, etc.... will probably have less oxytocin, or their receptors will probably be less efficient for oxytocin. (Early experience wires the brain for different responses. Early pain makes later pain more acute, early stress makes later stress feel worse, etc.)
And
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:There is more than one kind of violence. Some people only pick on the completely defenseless.... young children, the comatose, (yes, seriously) the elderly etc These people don't expect resistance of any sort, and any resistance - no matter how incompetent- will stop them. A little bit of karate, boxing, MMA, even wrestling... anything that teaches you to use your weight and improves your timing... should help.
I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.
OTOH, there are an awful lot of people who are used to fighting. They've thrown punches, and taken as many. Some have taken knife wounds or bullets. Momentary pain won't shock them, and landing a few blows won't surprise them into stopping. They know how to use their weight, because they've fought before. Don't count on a few years of training to neutralize their advantage in weight, because they're more experienced than you.
You need to be highly trained and in top form, and used to street fighting, before you could win in a straight-up fight. Not for someone weak, small, sick, out of shape, etc. And if your opponent is a gang member, you better stay out of their turf afterwards because you will never, ever be safe. Your best defense is to be part of a militarized group.
ETA: I just saw the thread on MMA. There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows. But as has been noted, certain things are never done in competition because they're permanently damaging. That is why I said you have to be used to STREET FIGHTING.
I'm... not sure what you're implying. You think I can't take a hit? I can take a hard kick to the groin and not even blink, hard enough I was bruised for a friggin' week. Yeah, so fights in Mormon country are beyond pathetic, for sure, and I wouldn't even try compare it to a street fight or gang warfare. But you're talking at me like you think I've never been in a brush up.
You asked me if I'd taken judo, and I said yeah. But one semestre isn't the only experience I've had. Not by far. :/
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Quote:
Then we get into the 'son of a bitch deserved it' defense...also known as battered woman syndrome.
Jezus...battered-woman syndrome = "son of a bitch deserved it"...simple as that, eh? Brrrrrr....a mentality I'd choose to avoid.Quote:
Women stay with abusers because they don't have other options (or they don't see that they have options), not because they "can't" beat up (or shoot) their partners. Sometimes the barriers are financial, sometimes the barriers are cultural, and sometimes psychological, sometimes legal, but rarely is abuse about not knowing martial arts or how to use a gun.
Thank you, Sig, for making the pertinent point.Quote:
Mass counts . So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.
Damned straight! Knowing some moves might mitigate the damage to myself, but kicking ass? That's laughable! There are some things I could do, depending on how much pain I wanted to suffer, but other things I simply physically couldn't do...and I've always been very flexible, even!Quote:
You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.
But you'll find many, many instances of young women of teenage years who've banded together to brutalize, both emotionally AND physically, other women.
Interesting what you said about males abused here.Quote:
with the exception of rappy, hero and geezer
I would add Wulf to that, if he's never been abused. What I noticed about that statement was that those are three of the lealst sensitive, least able to see others' viewpoints, of all of us. I wonder if childhood sexual abuse in some way makes some people more empathetic, more willing to see the greys?
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Quote:
You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.
That's... No Sig. Just no.
This women are the perfect pacifist cooperative gender and men are all violent thugs thing is starting to get to me. Can we go back to talking about the rape? That's actually less bothersome, at least then I have appropriate targets to direct my anger.
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NIKI- According to Wulf, he was raised by a pretty uninvolved mother (no dad) as the only white boy in a black-gang neighborhood, and that there was no way - either by beating them OR joining them- that he could escape the street abuse. Also, while neither rappy, geezer, nor hero have admitted to being abused, maybe they were. We don't know. This is the internet, after all, and all we know about each other is what we read.
BYTE.. for god's sake, woman! Untwist your panties, willya? Why do you think everything is related to you personally? MOST women don't get into serious fights. So you have a high tolerance for pain.... well, bully for you!
BYTE, NIKI- You're right. Women are not perfect pacifists. OTOH, they are very much less likely than males to engage in physical violence. Real-world fact.
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Quote:
BYTE.. for god's sake, woman! Untwist your panties, willya? Why do you think everything is related to you personally? MOST women don't get into serious fights.
How is that even possible? I always saw girls fighting, usually over boys. There was often hair pulling. For my part, girls always got all uppity on my tomboy self, I'd bite them, they'd throw rocks at me.
Wulf's seen girls take knives to each other over boys. He told me a story once where one girl actually half cut off another girl's face, it was just hanging off her.
I can't even understand where you're coming from.
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Quote:
OTOH, they are very much less likely than males to engage in physical violence. Real-world fact.
They're less likely to be convicted. :(
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Quote:Byte, you're not the only one who lives in the real world who knows things.
They're less likely to be convicted. :(
When our sitter's family was being followed and extorted for money, it was by men, All of the fights at work, threats of physical violence, guns carried? Men. Fights at school? Mostly the guys. Virtually all of the physical and sexual abuse claimed by people here in the board? Done by men.
C'mon. Anyone who does an objective tally about their own real-world experience will also see the same thing. Sure, girls and women can get pretty catty, forming their own in-groups and out-groups and saying nasty shit about each other. And yes, girls and women DO get into actual fights, they DO abuse their children or their spouses... but not the the extent that men do. All I have to do is count the number of times I've seen one thing versus another, it gets pretty clear.
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I don't think I believe it Sig. Does not compute.
Everyone is screwed up, everyone is potentially violent. I don't make any distinctions for race or gender or creed. We're all equally bad, and saying our own group isn't just seems wrong. Favouring our own group is preferential.
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Does not compute because you don't want it to compute.
I challenge everyone on the board to think back over their lifetime experience over who got physically violent, and count up the instances and sort it by gender.
Quote:I imagine that everyone does have a breaking point. You pile enough pressure on someone, and he or she will lash out. But IRL, women tend to be under MORE stress than men, if you simply want to weigh the responsibilities and commitments versus the resources.
Everyone is screwed up, everyone is potentially violent.
BYTE, on the one hand you want to think that everyone is like you or that you're like everyone. OTOH you want us all to think you're a sociopath. So, what you're saying is that everyone is a sociopath. If that were the case, the word would have no meaning. So, what ARE you saying?
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Quote:
I challenge everyone on the board to think back over their lifetime experience over who got physically violent, and count up the instances and sort it by gender.
Women overwhelm mine, because I'm the main feature in all of the violent episodes I can recall.
Quote:
But IRL, women tend to be under MORE stress than men, if you simply want to weigh the responsibilities and commitments versus the resources.
...Nooooo... Kinda don't think that either.
I think we're not going to make any headway in this discussion.
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Quote:
BYTE, on the one hand you want to think that everyone is like you or that you're like everyone. OTOH you want us all to think you're a sociopath. So, what you're saying is that everyone is a sociopath. If that were the case, the word would have no meaning. So, what ARE you saying?
The word has meaning because it is pretty much everyone. That's the state of our society. Everyone is a sociopath.
And when someone comes out as a sociopath, and admits their wrongdoing, everyone feels like it's perfectly okay to use that as ammunition as a point in an argument. Sig just played the you're a sociopath card, she wins.
Seriously, where is any of that even applicable to the conversation, or did you just want to hedge that in again because it's worked to quell me in the past?
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" ... you are never too old to deliver a much needed ass kicking."
Obviously written by a young person. Though I can say to both you and Chris,isall age isn't the issue - size, strength, disability, numbers and weapons are. There are old people who are in decent shape. And there are young people with disabilities. And there are old people with disabilities. Though given the nature of aging, you will probably find more old people with disabilities than young people. More women who are smaller and less muscular than men. More women are isolated from help. More men who own weapons. More men who are aggressive.
Back to aging, when I was younger I had no clue what aging would bring to me. I had no idea that some days just getting out of bed and standing up straight would be a victory against pain.
I was in seriously kick-ass shape - could race bicycles against guys over long - think 100+ mile - distances and not feel it. I was rock-solid, fit, strong, alert. I'd taken judo and self defense. Lived in a bad part of town and so was quite wary.
But here’s my experience with physical violence. Back then a man tried to attack me and ran away screaming in frustration b/c I was taking punches and backing up, but not going down. But he was only marginally larger than I was. If he'd been much larger, or stronger, or if he'd been more experienced or had more intent - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a knife - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a gun - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a friend with him - I wouldn't have had a chance. I don't care how situationally alert, young, fit, experienced and ready to defend yourself you are - circumstances win out. Claiming anything else is fantasy.
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Quote:
And when someone comes out as a sociopath, and admits their wrongdoing, everyone feels like it's perfectly okay to use that as ammunition as a point in an argument. Sig just played the you're a sociopath card, she wins.
No, I said YOU say you're a sociopath. I said I would take you seriously on that score, and I do. If anyone has ever played that card it's you.
You can't have it both ways, BYTE. You can't stake a claim and then cry FOUL when someone recognizes it!
So now you continue to say that everyone else is a sociopath too. Just like you.
AFA you featuring in your own list of violent episodes by women... well, you're the odd one out then. Your personal experience is just your personal experience. You're one instance in a society of many.
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Quote:
You're one instance in a society of many.
No way. I might've done wrong on the board and in my real life, but I'm not quite delusional enough yet to think there aren't people out there, both men and women, who haven't done worse than me.
And that most people WOULDN'T do worse under certain circumstances.
That's what humanity is. Shades of grey.
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People say I get personal, but when people ask me about being a sociopath, isn't that taking the argument in a personal direction? People get pissed when I bring it up, say that I'm being an attention whore, but then other people get to bring it up just to score points in an argument?
Let's drop the sociopath line of inquiry, it's not even tangential to this real world event discussion.
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Hello,
Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
Yes. It makes me hit my head. It makes me rocket propel my head through the nearest wall, and then all that's left of my scalp is exposed skull and bloody ribbons with stringy hair attached to it due to the friction involved with my head repeatedly hitting that brick wall.
This is my goddamn agony, and since this thread is going there, I feel compelled to share that misery with everyone.
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Yes BYTE, you push someone hard enough and god knows what someone "might" do. I've been so frustrated I threw a glass against a wall. (Soft wallboard, all I did was dent the wall.) I was picked on in school... I would imagine by people pretty much like you. But I didn't take your path.
And, if I may say so... YOU started the discussion down this path by bringing up your own sorry history. Sorry if you don't like the destination.
So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand.
------------------
TONY, hmmm... yes, that IS what I've been saying, isn't it? But it's not all men, obviously. Men are also victims of (male) violence... all you have to do is look at gun deaths to see that the perps and victims are often of the same gender. Clearly, it is a subset of males who are extra-juicy aggressive.
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"Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?"
I would change that to a higher percentage of men are violent than women.
That's been my experience and observation. Statistics seem to bear that out. Not that women aren't abusive, they're just abusive in non-physical ways and for different reasons.
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Hello,
Seems this isn't a thread about sharing or learning or enlightenment.
Someone's got a tally of statistics and a bag of conclusions.
What am I here for, then?
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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TONY- What are you here for? To represent the non-aggressive male. To tell us why you're not aggressive, perhaps, or explain to us what you think should be done.
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Sig, I told the board I was a sociopath to keep me fucking honest because I was becoming extremely manipulative. It wasn't to win a point in an argument, it was because it was a necessity.
You bringing up my sociopathy in this thread isn't about keeping me honest, calling me out on misbehaviour towards other people, it's about winning a point in an argument. It cheapens my emotional investment in this argument to a single label, and it cheapens your emotional investment to turn a conversation about other people being RAPED and BEING BLAMED for it into an argument about MY sociopathy.
And I'm saying, this conversation deserves to be about that, solving that problem, and not my sociopathy, which is not even relevant to this because I've never raped someone. The conversation started to turn towards the issue of which gender is more violent, which is something I seriously disagree about, and which I have opinions based on my personal experience about. And perhaps you're right, and I shouldn't even have let the thread derail to THAT. So my sociopathy is just right out then.
EDIT:
Quote:
So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand.
Splendid.
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"Seems this isn't a thread about sharing or learning or enlightenment.
Someone's got a tally of statistics and a bag of conclusions.
What am I here for, then?"
Uhm ... is that directed at me?
I think it's a general observation across history and cultures. Not that there aren't major exceptions - men who've experienced violence who are not violent, or women with pacifist backgrounds who are violent.
Now generally I don’t go for 'human nature' arguments. So I'm very willing to think there's something in our organization that creates that general effect of more violence in males. Like the aggressive baboons that got killed off by eating tainted meat, leading to a reasonably (for baboons) non-violent society; or the chimps that developed a steep male-dominated hierarchy when food was placed in an easily dominated piles rather than scattered around. Maybe it's a circumstance, maybe it's a fluke of history.
But as for your personal story, or HKC's, or the stories of others, of course I'm interested. Not just b/c they say a lot about people in general, but b/c they say specific things about you, which I find interesting, enlightening, and welcome.
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Quote:I brought up your claimed sociopathy because you said
You bringing up my sociopathy in this thread isn't about keeping me honest, calling me out on misbehaviour towards other people, it's about winning a point in an argument. It cheapens my emotional investment in this argument to a single label, and it cheapens your emotional investment to turn a conversation about other people being RAPED and BEING BLAMED for it into an argument about MY sociopathy.
Quote:
Women overwhelm mine, because I'm the main feature in all of the violent episodes I can recall.
Quote:
So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand. -Signy
Splendid.-Byte
Is that not what you asked for??? As I recall...
Quote:Since this conversation is once again about you, the next time I'm not even going to reply.
And I'm saying, this conversation deserves to be about that, solving that problem, and not my sociopathy, which is not even relevant to this because I've never raped someone. So try something else.
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Seems like I offended the aggressive female and the non-aggressive male on the board. I think I've been pretty clear and consistent in saying there is a lot of overlap, not only between societies but within a society. Two bell curves, with offset averages but a lot of overlap.
Why are some people aggressive? Is is social? Neurodevelopmental? Hormonal? Some combination?
How can we get the violent people to be less violent? How can we encourage victims to protect themselves and each other?
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I wrote that while you wrote yours. There was overlap that has to be allowed for.
So, self defense apparently doesn't protect women against rape. You believe that cooperation does?
What about in Afghanistan where mothers are involved in trading their little girls like chattel to older men for marriage? That's some cooperation.
Actually, perhaps the only way to truly prevent rape is not individual threat, but societal. Perhaps these women in Delhi have a point that when rape is ignored or treated like a slap on the wrist, it's almost encouraged. The punishment for rape has to be serious enough to discourage it.
On the other hand, there are some punishments that can occur before or during the act that don't require strength or fighting skill on the part of the woman. It bothers me that punishment has to wait until AFTER the fact in most cases... When juries have to rely on hearsay, and where victim blaming defenses can come into play.
I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear? I know for a fact they exist. Maybe men can wear them as well in their vulnerable orifices. This would very likely seriously cut down on all rape, but a question remains about safety for the user and hygiene.
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So my hubby has been insisting I bring this reference to the board:
The Algorithmic Origins of Life
Sara Imari Walker, Paul CW Davies
NASA Astrobiology Institute
Discusses, among other things, the interplay between algorithm and environment.
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Quote:Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about. Wouldn't help in cases of anal rape (unless you wanted an insert in your rectum, too) or penetration by object, which is what apparently did this young woman in. But for the average rape, it would be a little like carrying a weapon... ya never know who might be "packing"!
I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
AFA the women who sell their children like chattel, there is a problem in societies founded on violence which is... well, pretty much all of them. Those on power dribble out a little power to the next down the line to get their "buy in" and so forth and so on down the line, until you reach the most vulnerable and helpless.
You would literally have to construct a new society to reverse the problem, with its own set of economic and social groups. For example, instead of male-headed families where women are isolated from each other, mixed groups. It's been done with females, it should be able to be done with mixed company of well-meaning people.
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yeah, exactly. And I was also thinking about for the rectum as well.
With an object wouldn't be helped by this, unfortunately, but then again surely most rapes and molestation happen organically, so to speak? It seems like an act that doesn't necessarily lend itself to a lot of forethought, so people would use what they're most likely to have immediately on hand, and a body part is more likely to be on hand than anything else. Plus it's the most likely to satisfy whatever rape urge they got.
Maybe daily inserts of some sort, that could help with the hygiene problem. But then you have to worry about assholes at the factory screwing with the inserts. Putting cayenne pepper on them, maybe even ejaculating on them if they're guys.
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Quote:Yes to both questions. Abuse is far more prevalent than studies will ever show, plus, many kids who suffered abuse got into fantasy & SF for escape, so on a Firefly board you will find a higher incidence of it than on a Sport Fishing board IMO.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Has EVERY male on this board experienced abuse as a child???? It seems like nearly everyone (with the exception of rappy, hero and geezer) has experience early abuse. Is this the norm, then??? Or is this just a skewed population?
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Hello,
Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.
Re: Hormones and violence - I'm sure hormones are related to amplifying emotion, based on experiences with hormonally imbalanced people. But I don't think creating strong emotion is itself enough to create violence. There has to be a willingness to commit the violence in order for this to matter.
Re: Violence - I think teaching empathy and reinforcing a norm of caring for others is the best tool in reducing not only violence, but abuse in general. One thing we must do is remove the idea that there is THEM and there is US. Whenever there's a THEM and US, it becomes easier to abuse people.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
You would literally have to construct a new society to reverse the problem, with its own set of economic and social groups. For example, instead of male-headed families where women are isolated from each other, mixed groups. It's been done with females, it should be able to be done with mixed company of well-meaning people.
Hmm. I am entirely okay with this.
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Quote:
Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.
Except you're choosing it, and in the case of women, the inserts won't get you pregnant unless they've been tampered with. Plus, attacker gets punished, spiteful I know, but then I'm just full of spite.
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Stiffer sentences haven't been the answer for other crimes - either non-violent or violent. The death penalty doesn't seem to deter murder, for example. What does seem to work is the perception that you will or won't get caught.
BTW - what I wonder is - what were these men telling themselves that made that attack OK?
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Quote:*shakes head*
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about.
I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
That would almost certainly transform a rape into a murder.
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Quote:
BTW - what I wonder is - what were these men telling themselves that made that attack OK?
Also a point.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:*shakes head*
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about.
I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
That would almost certainly transform a rape into a murder.
Not necessarily. There are ways to put on hurt without permanent damage or even piercing.
Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?
In my mind rape is already kind of a murder. It's about disrespecting and discarding the life and choice of a person, and many rape victims often die from their own wounds. A rapist is one kinda bastard I don't have any qualms against killing.
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Just wanted to bring this up:
A Place Where Women Rule
Quote:
UMOJA, Kenya -- Seated cross-legged on tan sisal mats in the shade, Rebecca Lolosoli, matriarch of a village for women only, took the hand of a frightened 13-year-old girl. The child was expected to wed a man nearly three times her age, and Lolosoli told her she didn't have to.
The man was Lolosoli's brother, but that didn't matter. This is a patch of Africa where women rule.
"You are a small girl. He is an old man," said Lolosoli, who gives haven to young girls running from forced marriages. "Women don't have to put up with this nonsense anymore."
Ten years ago, a group of women established the village of Umoja, which means unity in Swahili, on an unwanted field of dry grasslands. The women said they had been raped and, as a result, abandoned by their husbands, who claimed they had shamed their community.
Stung by the treatment, Lolosoli, a charismatic and self-assured woman with a crown of puffy dark hair, decided no men would be allowed to live in their circular village of mud-and-dung huts.
....
What started as a group of homeless women looking for a place of their own became a successful and happy village. About three dozen women live here and run a cultural center and camping site for tourists visiting the adjacent Samburu National Reserve. Umoja has flourished, eventually attracting so many women seeking help that they even hired men to haul firewood, traditionally women's work.
ad_icon
....
But the women felt empowered with the revenue from the camping site and their cultural center, where they sell crafts. They were able to send their children to school for the first time, eat well and reject male demands for their daughters' circumcision and marriage.
They became so respected that troubled women, some beaten, some trying to get divorced, started showing up in this little village in northern Kenya. Lolosoli was even invited by the United Nations to attend a recent world conference on gender empowerment in New York.
"That's when the very ugly jealous behaviors started," Lolosoli said, adding that her life was threatened by local men right before her trip to New York. "They just said, frankly, that they wanted to kill me," Lolosoli said, laughing because she thought the idea sounded overly dramatic.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005
070801775_2.html
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Quote:What? No way- they tend to get a brisk slap on the wrists! A year in the pokey, sometimes a fine... unless the victim has a lot of cash.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:What? No way- they tend to get a brisk slap on the wrists! A year in the pokey, sometimes a fine... unless the victim has a lot of cash.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?
>_>
I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.
You believe in self-defense, right, and when it's life or death, then do you think you can kill in self-defense?
What is more life threatening than rape? I do not understand your reasoning as equating fighting off a rapist with murder, especially when the rape victim so often succumbs to their wounds.
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CHRIS... what do you mean? That an insert could kill a man, or that the man would just get enraged and kill the woman?
If you mean the first... well, I hardly have sympathy for the rapist. If the latter... well, then it wouldn't be very effective and shouldn't be considered.
--------------
Quote:TONY- women get to deal with all of the sanitary aspects of having menstrual cycles, so shoving stuff up our vaginas isn't such an unusual prospect for us.
Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.
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Quote:My dear, you misunderstood me due to my brevity, I don't give a rat's ass about a rapist's life, but what might be a survivable rape might turn to death if a person so already sick as to commit rape feels pain in that area and decides retaliate by killing the victim.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.
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Just to get back to violence in general -
I think it's pretty clear that people have the capacity for violence as well as for sociality. Yanno - look at history.
I tend to try to frame this in an evolutionary sense. Some additional reading I've done recently indicates that some common chimpanzee troops hunt quite a bit. Females don't hunt. Males form hunting groups, dominated by not necessarily the best hunter, but often the larger, younger and/or more aggressive male. The dominant male decides who will be included in the hunting party. The dominant male also decides who gets what of the kill, if there is one. Females engage in extreme submissive behavior to beg for meat. Despite that, on the whole females only get about 1% of the meat. These troops also have been seen to engage in warfare of a sorts against neighboring chimpanzee troops - they use their organization and hunting skills against isolated chimpanzees where territories meet, killing them.
To me it seems like this 'hunting' creates an easily dominated resource, leading to the same types of steep male-dominated hierarchies seen when fruit gets piled into one pile. And group hunting behavior gets translated into territorial behavior.
This isn't necessarily a sustainable model. One might think it would allow for troops led by warlike dominant males to take over territory of more pacifist groups, allowing that behavior to thrive. OTOH the true generators of long-term survival - females and surviving young - benefit very little from this behavior. But evolution makes its first cut in the immediate time frame. So this behavior PRIMARILY benefits the creation and maintenance of a male hierarchy. If taken to an extreme, that behavior would lead to the decline of the overall population. Over time a balance is struck between aggressive dominant male behavior and group survival.
Anyway, the point is that evolution doesn't select for the optimum behaviors, it selects for the ones that control the most resources, and against the ones that lead to unsustainable mortality in females and offspring.
Bonobos also hunt. However, females hunt equally with males. And while there are hierarchies among both males and females, they don't revolve around food or mating. The friction of living in a hierarchical group is resolved through sex (lower ranking individuals offering sex to higher ranking individuals). This arrangement would seem to lead a thriving populations and long-term survival. I haven't read how territorial disputes between groups get resolved.
Anyway, I think people evolved in an egalitarian setting - where the means of survival was available to anyone's hand, literally. However, as people moved off the beach and out of the estuary, they encountered an environment where food was a lot scarcer. Hunting became a necessity. Since females rarely hunt in 'primitive' societies, I think this created an easily dominated 'rare resource' that COULD lead to the formation of hierarchies. Agriculture is another innovation that could accomplish the same thing, since the means of survival was limited to discrete areas of land not relocatable. Capitalism does the same thing, where a few have control over the means of survival for many.
I think we need to find a way to resolve our evolutionary egalitarian past and our restricted environment. I suspect that it's that conundrum that creates the conditions for a lot of unfortunate behavior.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:My dear, you misunderstood me due to my brevity, I don't give a rat's ass about a rapist's life, but what might be a survivable rape might turn to death if a person so already sick as to commit rape feels pain in that area and decides retaliate by killing the victim.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.
Better than them getting away with it, since many of them already do that anyway.
Said I was full of spite, and I meant it. If that's the one last act of a rape victim, it would also be the one last cold comfort provided to them.
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Quote:The latter.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
CHRIS... what do you mean? That an insert could kill a man, or that the man would just get enraged and kill the woman?
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Well, if there was such a thing and it was known there was such a thing, males would change their behavior to account for it - using objects rather than body parts, using the threat of death - weapons/ superior numbers - to make the females remove such a thing. I wish it didn't seem to me that that's what would happen, but it seems obvious to me that that would be the result.
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So back to...
A Place Where Women Rule
Quote:.
UMOJA, Kenya -- Seated cross-legged on tan sisal mats in the shade, Rebecca Lolosoli, matriarch of a village for women only, took the hand of a frightened 13-year-old girl. The child was expected to wed a man nearly three times her age, and Lolosoli told her she didn't have to.
The man was Lolosoli's brother, but that didn't matter. This is a patch of Africa where women rule.
"You are a small girl. He is an old man," said Lolosoli, who gives haven to young girls running from forced marriages. "Women don't have to put up with this nonsense anymore."
Ten years ago, a group of women established the village of Umoja, which means unity in Swahili, on an unwanted field of dry grasslands. The women said they had been raped and, as a result, abandoned by their husbands, who claimed they had shamed their community.
Stung by the treatment, Lolosoli, a charismatic and self-assured woman with a crown of puffy dark hair, decided no men would be allowed to live in their circular village of mud-and-dung huts.
....
What started as a group of homeless women looking for a place of their own became a successful and happy village. About three dozen women live here and run a cultural center and camping site for tourists visiting the adjacent Samburu National Reserve. Umoja has flourished, eventually attracting so many women seeking help that they even hired men to haul firewood, traditionally women's work.
....
But the women felt empowered with the revenue from the camping site and their cultural center, where they sell crafts. They were able to send their children to school for the first time, eat well and reject male demands for their daughters' circumcision and marriage.
They became so respected that troubled women, some beaten, some trying to get divorced, started showing up in this little village in northern Kenya. Lolosoli was even invited by the United Nations to attend a recent world conference on gender empowerment in New York.
"That's when the very ugly jealous behaviors started," Lolosoli said, adding that her life was threatened by local men right before her trip to New York. "They just said, frankly, that they wanted to kill me," Lolosoli said, laughing because she thought the idea sounded overly dramatic
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005
070801775_2.html
Maybe there should be separation of the genders, for those who would like to live that way.
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Quote:
using objects rather than body parts, using the threat of death - weapons/ superior numbers - to make the females remove such a thing. I wish it didn't seem to me that that's what would happen, but it seems obvious to me that that would be the result.
Would they? Or would the act itself just lose its appeal?
Organic rapes are crimes of passion, but using an object, to me that seems to be about shaming a person. It's two different things. You can't cut down on the object rape, but you probably would cut down on organic rape.
If only because, imagine a guy holding a woman at knife or gun point, ordering her to remove her protection. Says she says no, because maybe she's like me and thinks the rape that would come after that would be worse than death.
Three possibilities remain for the man: kill the woman and then be forced to give up because the woman would not remove the contraption, remove the contraption himself while she's dead, or give up. And the most likely option there is: he gives up, because what's the fun for him raping a dead chick? He doesn't get the power rush of watching her be afraid, or the power rush of forcing her to submit to him.
Once the girl has protection like that, all a would be rapist has left is a bluff.
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Dissection time:
Quote:Better the rapist turns even MORE violent & kills the victim?
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Better than them getting away with it, since many of them already do that anyway.
Quote:I'm so not getting what you mean in this sentence, Byte.
If that's the one last act of a rape victim, it would also be the one last cold comfort provided to them.
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I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway. So if the rapist goes nuts at the contraption injuring him, and kills the woman, he still gets injured. More importantly, he can also probably be identified by the injury.
If the rape victim has to die, if it were me, I'd feel at least just a little satisfied that I got them back and more. As a side bonus, it also means for that victim that the rapist won't hurt anyone else. When there's nothing else, revenge can be very sweet indeed - it can even be worth dying.
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Quote:
Maybe there should be separation of the genders, for those who would like to live that way.
Hello,
Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:I don't know of any statistics that show that, in the US anyway.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I don't know of any statistics that show that, in the US anyway.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway.
Hello,
If everyone who was raped in our country was murdered, there'd be a lot fewer people.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.
Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point. I'm saying I want to give the victims a chance to really fuck up their attackers, since they're already risking death just by being a rape victim.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.
Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point.
Hello,
Most rape victims survive in this country. There are multitudes of walking wounded out there. Seas of them. Oceans.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.
Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point.
Hello,
Most rape victims survive in this country. There are multitudes of walking wounded out there. Seas of them. Oceans.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.
In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?
Once again, I suspect many of them would.
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"Organic rapes are crimes of passion ..."
That's pretty well debunked. Rapes tend to be about power. Also, some men can't get aroused unless they inflict pain and humiliation, both are intrinsic to sex and can't be separated from it, sometimes even take place instead of it. In parlance, they 'get off' on it in place of sex.
Just to get back to punishment for a bit - FWIW the idea that men get sent to jail and then get back out after while doesn't work either, for the habitual rapist. In general, the best predictor of that behavior in that person is past behavior. I'd think after a second rape conviction, the sentence should be life imprisonment with no possibility of release.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.
In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?
Once again, I suspect many of them would.
Hello,
In my experience, you'd do anything to escape, to get away, to get safe. The desire is one to survive and to do so intact if possible.
The desire to die comes later. When it's all over.
And yeah, if you can get safe by killing someone, that's good.
But causing pain in exchange for your life is not likely on your mind when trying to escape such an attack. The pain's only value at that point would be if it helps you get away.
In my experience.
But perhaps once so abused, the mind can be twisted so that revenge is more important than escape. And then maybe the next abuser... maybe you'd be willing to die just to hurt them.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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"Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?"
Was that in opposition or support? Personally, I think if a community of women - or men - who prefer to live together exclusively were to be formed, I think it would be exactly that, everyone getting to live the way they want.
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