Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 20:14
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BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:09 PM

Quote:
Rapes tend to be about power.

That's pretty much exactly what I said.

"Crime of passion" means it wasn't really done with malice aforethought. They just got the urge then acted on it. Saw an opportunity - a drunk girl, an girl all on her lonesome in a dark part of a park, the girl is in their house and they're too horny to stop - and they acted on it.

Honestly, I think stuff like date rape drugs should be prosecuted more than the other stuff, because it suggested they THOUGHT about it in advance. That's so psychopathic it even bothers me. But then again I have no problem doing away with just the general rapists, so I'm not sure how to give a harsher punishment to people who use roofies.

EDIT: I made an oops. No, I do not want to do away with general rape victims. o.0 Big oops.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.

In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?

Once again, I suspect many of them would.

Hello,

In my experience, you'd do anything to escape, to get away, to get safe. The desire is one to survive and to do so intact if possible.

The desire to die comes later. When it's all over.

And yeah, if you can get safe by killing someone, that's good.

But causing pain in exchange for your life is not likely on your mind when trying to escape such an attack. The pain's only value at that point would be if it helps you get away.

In my experience.

But perhaps once so abused, the mind can be twisted so that revenge is more important than escape. And then maybe the next abuser... maybe you'd be willing to die just to hurt them.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

I'd really only been molested once by a stranger, and I was about ready to kill them if they hadn't run off. Even calling it molestation is actually probably stretching it a little, because they just grabbed me, and it wasn't even a big deal because I never actually felt like I was in danger. But my basic attitude is always a generalized I don't care how much I get hurt so long as I hurt them too. So maybe whether you're willing to die depends on the attitude you have going in.

Actual rape? That's really bad. :( I'm sorry Anthony.

1KIKI

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:17 PM

OK, I get your point.

So those 6 men who mortally beat and raped the woman and severely beat her boyfriend - was it a combination of momentary extreme passion and opportunity, or a pre-assessed course of action (this kind of thing is OK) where the opportunity presented itself and there was no reason to not?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:22 PM

Not familiar with that specific case, but... Off hand I'd say that gang bangers tend to feel a safety in numbers power trip kind of thing. So even with her boyfriend there, she and her boyfriend may have looked like easy pickings. It sounds to me like an attack of opportunity, and therefore also a crime of passion.

For it to have been planned in advance, there'd need to be like a revenge motive or something. Perhaps there was one, I don't know, not familiar with the case.

They could have even been planning revenge and attacking the boyfriend, and then catching his girlfriend all alone after that was just a bonus. In which case the attack on her boyfriend would have been planned, but the attack on the girlfriend was a crime of passion.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?"

Was that in opposition or support? Personally, I think if a community of women - or men - who prefer to live together exclusively were to be formed, I think it would be exactly that, everyone getting to live the way they want.

Hello,

How can "Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?" be perceived as opposition?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:25 PM

Hello,

This gang rape thing reminds me of A Clockwork Orange, where a bunch of people go out with the intention of committing some rape and ultraviolence. They find a target of opportunity and engage in what they are likely to call a good bit of fun.

Which is really fucking sick, and speaks to a sickness amongst the population.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

1KIKI

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:26 PM

It was ambiguous to me. I guess I'm tone deaf. OOPS. Sorry 'bout that.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Organic rapes are crimes of passion, but using an object, to me that seems to be about shaming a person. It's two different things. You can't cut down on the object rape, but you probably would cut down on organic rape.

The hell? Seriously, Byte, no. You are simply clueless on the subject of rape. You're all fear and fascination and no reality here.

Rape is a crime of passion? And only with objects is it gonna be about humiliating the victim? "Organic rape?" That's something you just made up off the top of your head, isn't it?

Rape is always about humiliation. It's always about control. It's about revenge. It's about rage. Sex is merely the means to an end in rape. Rape is, as you say, a fate worse than death and the rapist knows that as well as anyone. And no, rape is not a crime of passion. Rape is nothing that's gonna come about spontaneously 'cause the rapist got angry. Rape is something acted out in the mind of the rapist countless times before he/she finally enacts his/her fantasy.

Quote:
If only because, imagine a guy holding a woman at knife or gun point, ordering her to remove her protection. Says she says no, because maybe she's like me and thinks the rape that would come after that would be worse than death.

Good god, Byte, this guff is straight out of a trashy novel. Rape at gun point? The VAAAAAAST majority of rape does not involve any such weapon. Christ, most rapes are perpetrated by men known to the victim. Byte, you are seriously talking fantasyland here.

Quote:
Three possibilities remain for the man: kill the woman and then be forced to give up because the woman would not remove the contraption, remove the contraption himself while she's dead, or give up. And the most likely option there is: he gives up, because what's the fun for him raping a dead chick? He doesn't get the power rush of watching her be afraid, or the power rush of forcing her to submit to him.

Once the girl has protection like that, all a would be rapist has left is a bluff.

Pure, pulp fantasy garbage.

This insert thing is a grotesque fantasy worthy of John Ringo or Norman Mailer and would simply not work because the sex part of an act of rape, as I've said, is a means to an end. If vaginal intercourse were suddenly off the menu, then yeah, the guy would find some other way to "put the woman in her place" which was his intention all along.

People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.

Jeez Marie, we have so far to go as a species when it comes to understanding ourselves.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:32 PM

Quote:
Good god, Byte, this guff is straight out of a trashy novel. Rape at gun point? The VAAAAAAST majority of rape does not involve any such weapon. Christ, most rapes are perpetrated by men known to the victim. Byte, you are seriously talking fantasyland here.

HEY! I was ANSWERING a question asked to me by 1kiki. It's not my fault if the scenario she came up with seems so lacking to YOU.

It seems pretty serious business to me though, so step off!

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:33 PM

Quote:

People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.

FUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUU

Fuck you for talking down to me, fuck you for feeling so high and mighty you get to decide what I've been through, FUCK YOU!

1KIKI

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:38 PM

Byte, the '6 men' story was the story of the Indian rape victim who just died. She and her boyfriend were on a bus when 6 men beat and raped her (on the bus), beat her boyfriend severely, stripped them both, then threw them off the bus onto the street, presumably to die, or ... whatever. It seemed to be of no consequence to those men if either lived or died.

I honestly can understand a man - especially a young man full of testosterone - being significantly driven by sexual urges. I can see one being at the point where he really truly would have a difficult time stopping. However, the line is one of whether or not it's consensual or not. Apparently, a lot of young males think it not being consensual is OK, as long as they feel sufficient urges.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-17/local/me-7004_1_young-women

A survey of 245 female and 194 male students at Washington State University found "an alarming minority of students"--5% of women and 19% of men--do not believe that forcible rape on dates is definitely rape or that the male's behavior is definitely unacceptable, psychologist Gloria Fischer said.

They were students who believed that forcing a date to have sex might be acceptable under any one of nine circumstances, including if the man spent a lot of money on the woman, if she led him on, if she had sex with other men, if she was intoxicated or if she excited him, Fischer said.

http://www.saidit.org/archives/june00/oneway.html

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.
A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:

* 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, “spent a lot of money” on the girl;
* 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
* 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
* 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

In a survey of male college students:
* 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it.
* One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:38 PM

Quote:
You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.

Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:43 PM

1kiki: Ah, I'm sorry. I only knew the story from India about the one woman who was leaving a bar and was attacked. It appears there are multiple stories going on out there.

I suppose I thought it was the woman leaving the bar who had died at the hospital.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:47 PM

Quote:
I'm sorry Anthony.

Hello,

I was able to escape the worst of it, Byte.

There are people who weren't. And there are people who weren't over and over and over again. Once you've been in that kind of situation, it's like you have a sense for others who've been there. You find them and if you're lucky you can talk to them and share and help each other move forward.

I disagree with some commentators here that rape is a fate worse than death. I agree it can feel that way at the time and for a long time after. People can survive it and make themselves feel whole again, but it's like recovering from any serious injury requiring difficult rehabilitation.

The hard things to understand are that it's not your fault, you still have value, you aren't powerless, and it's okay to trust people again. If you can get those things back as a part of yourself, you can live a happy and fulfilling life. Easier said than done.

In my experience.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:53 PM

I'm still sorry Anthony. :(

Even just saying that I'm glad you're doing better feels like such a cop out in the face of that. I'm so sorry.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.

Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.

Neither do I. There's a lot of room for opinion before you get to the pornographic nonsense about inserts and "organic rape."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

1KIKI

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:54 PM

Hey seriously - you are all valuable people here. It hurts to see one so hurt and angry, especially when we're all doing our best to discuss a difficult topic through a very imperfect medium. I know we can't say too many nice things to you or about you Byte b/c it sets your radar off, but my wish for you is you become calm and relaxed soon. OK?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.

Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.
Neither do I. There's a lot of room for opinion before you get to the pornographic nonsense about inserts and "organic rape."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Do I stroke myself in the mirror with my fear HK? That kind of pornographic?

1KIKI

Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:59 PM

HKC - this seems to be a very important topic for you. I'm on and off the board really erratically so I may have missed something most already know. And I really am not looking for an explanation for things I'm clueless about. I just want to say I think your voice is a valuable one that I really want to hear. That's all.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.

FUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUU

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, Byte. Was kinda the point.

I'm not talking down to you. You yourself admit to talking about stuff you don't know anything about sometimes. This is just one of those times. AND it's a subject that some folks are better informed on than you are. And, as Anthony pointed out, that's actually good news.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:00 PM

Hello Cavalier,

I just wanted to be sure you knew that these inserts are not theoretical. They were invented and manufactured.

I didn't want you to think Byte was making it up in some fevered fantasy.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

I honestly can understand a man - especially a young man full of testosterone - being significantly driven by sexual urges. I can see one being at the point where he really truly would have a difficult time stopping.

Balderdash. No one and I mean NO ONE was a hornier teen & 20-something than I was, and if my partner said so much as "Oh, I forgot I have a test to study for!" that was it; game over. If it's not 100% consensual, it's a turn off. And if it's NOT, then baby, you are with the wrong guy.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:05 PM

Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women. Or for some men, if you're one of those who has suffered from this.

In short, that was still uncalled for! AND I AM HELLA PISSED at you. You tell me to shut up! You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!

SO FUCK YOU!

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:18 PM

Hey Byte,

I never told you to shut up. You seem to hear "shut up" a lot more often than anyone actually tells you to shut up.

I did not tell you to shut up. I told you--ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did. It was a plea for backing away from wild speculation about prosthetic dentata devices and scenarioizing about what's better, being raped or cutting the guy's dick off and getting killed for it and what would be more satisfying in the end. That level of absurd grandstanding and morbid fantasization is something I expect from a guy like Wulfenstar. Not from anyone in this discussion.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!

Whoah whoah whoah, this runaway train needs a dead man switch!

Deep breaths, people. We're all part of the same crew on this boat.
K?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:25 PM

Quote:
ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.

Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:29 PM

Well, this thread looks unpleasant.... still I have stuff to add and imma do so.

Imma clip a post from another thread cause I think it may be MORE relevant here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53674

Quote:
Okay, this is gonna drift from topic, and might run long, but imma expound at length about it cause it revolves around a recent rethinking which I believe answers the question of why the abused kid survival rate is so drastically skewed in regards to gender...

See, humans are biologically hardwired with certain predispositions, and that for you Anthony, a lot of them are survival-related, some perhaps outdated by our society, and some most certainly not, which becomes problematic, sure.

What drives a lot of aberrant behavior in childhood is IMHO the mixed messages that children recieve when what they are being "taught", intentionally or otherwise, comes into conflict with those natural impulses - for example it is the NATURE of humans to share and cooperate, but when one is TAUGHT to be selfish and exploit/abuse/mislead others, it creates all kind of mental static that can manifest as "behavioral problems"... first of this, or usually the first clash, is being taught to lie.

Children have both an inherent honesty, and do *NOT* have the "filters" we have on worldview cause they've not developed them - they actually see the sick homeless guy who never makes it past your consciousness, they see the "wrong" in situations we've long trained ourselves to accept as a matter of course, another place trying to reconcile opposing values does them harm - for the first person a child is taught to lie to, is themself.

The human subconscious has defenses against that, whether they be intentional or not I couldn't say, but by default nature usually wins that contest, proof of that lies in how any sufficient deception will not hold up over time, with extraordinarily rare exceptions they *will* give themselves away no matter how skilled they are - it takes an amazing amount of abuse and conditioning to make a human being inherently dishonest, and the resultant psychological damage usually leaves them ineffective at it.

Anyhows, for some, meditation is kind of like tuning in to listen to those impulses suppressed by social conditioning, seeking the voice of the lost and broken child within - or reaching deeper, and finding something.... darker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29
We all have the beast within, it's directly related to the HPA axis of the brain and the fight/freeze/flight instinct, those in tune with it can actually USE this to their advantage, and some military training/conditioning is a kind of halfassed, assbackwards attempt to teach this.

Which, brings me to why the gender gap in abuse survival.
See, the earlier you start screwing up a kids brain, the harder it becomes to fix, and if the damage gets done during critical developmental periods, barring early intervention it's all but permanent.
Beyond that, early damage is the hardest also cause it's festered and begun to calcify, become part of the personality itself, and that's a nightmare to deal with when it happens cause you're talking about the very foundation of WHO THEY ARE...
(And yes, I am bloody well aware this is why I will NEVER voluntarily disarm, ever.)

Which brings up gender roles and concepts in relation to when and how the damage is done, you see.
Boys we screw up right off the bat, teach them violence, might-makes-right, emotional suppression, cut them off from coping skills, discourage cooperation and encourage an often ruthless competitive streak which DOES have its Shadow counterpart down there as a secondary drive related to survival OUTSIDE of a group setting - it's not a primary drive, but if you suppress the primary drives, there are secondaries which take over, also a source of mental static and confusion with emotional overtones which causes acting out, a coping mechanism shut down by social pressure as

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:41 PM

Additional Points.

1. Toxic effect of a society poisoned by a ludicrously patriarchal and puritannical religion.

2. Push of expected gender "roles".

3. Imbalance of coping mechanisms which reduce potential violence, by gender, in regard to the information related above.

Now, that said, overall it does appear that fewer women than men choose violence as a problem solving manner, HOWEVER, those who do are in my experience decidedly more vicious and potentially more lethal, not so much due to it being "unexpected" from them, which I consider not much more than a halfassed excuse, but simply cause they happen to be damned good at it, chillingly so.

Echo is a case in point, coming from a fundamentalist family whos punishment for even the simplest transgression bordered on outright flogging, and she's way messed up because of it, violent in nature with a pain tolerance which makes stopping her when she goes spare very problematic.
Of course that's the *least* of her issues about it.

I suppose the question here is just how much is genetic/biological impulse, versus how much is expected social roles - compounded by the behavioral changes inspired by being psychologically impacted much later in the developmental cycle, which is a point of focus I think we've badly overlooked.

It does lead me to wonder, IF we held out on a male child and did NOT start into crushing their personhood immediately, how great would the personality deviation be ?

Just some thoughts.

-F

Oh, not Echo from Dollhouse, although that's where she cribbed the callsign from, but one of the folks I am working with on their own issues at this time.

SIGNYM

Monday, December 31, 2012 3:15 AM

Quote:
Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women..

Huh?

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 3:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
HKC - this seems to be a very important topic for you. I'm on and off the board really erratically so I may have missed something most already know. And I really am not looking for an explanation for things I'm clueless about. I just want to say I think your voice is a valuable one that I really want to hear. That's all.

Hey kiki,

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to suggest that only rape survivors should be allowed to talk about rape. That's absolutely not how I feel. And, yeah, that's an undeservedly prevalent notion: only rape survivors getta talk about rape, only holocaust survivors getta talk about the holocaust, etc. I see that that would be an easy inference to make from what I said, but I don't believe it's necessary to experience a thing to be knowledgeable about that thing. Everyone in the human family gets to talk about our family issues and this stuff rises to that level for me. It's just that Byte's wild fantasies about the nature of rape and the motives of the rapist were clearly not anything she'd learned from credible sources or anything she'd actually experienced (sorry for the presumption but it did seem pretty damn clear to me) and I felt it was pretty deeply insulting for her to go on speculating on a level that felt, to me, like fanfic.

I meant to say, Hey, some folks have actually lived through this crap and you're making a mockery of it here.

I dunno. I prolly could have just kept my peace, but as you note above, this is a subject that I feel very strongly about and I have heard so much misinformation and pure fantasy on the subject over the years that it's made me...sensative, shall we say, on the subject.

I'm just getting so utterly sick of people thinking that problems like rape or mass murder begin and end with the actual rape or murder, so if we can find some way to "prevent" these eventualities alone--booby trap the vagina or station armed guards on the playground--then the problem will be solved. Makes me sick and, yeah, infuriates me.

Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: serial killers, mass murderers and rapists all have something in common psychologically. They all rehearse and fantasize their crimes well in advance, sometimes for years, before actually carrying them out. Any man who rapes has wanted to rape for a very long time before he goes through with it, finally. Same with serial killers and child molesters. There's got to be a reason they have these fantasies. These are not common fantasies. Sure, someone may flippantly imagine "going postal" but they're not gonna rehearse it in their minds and plan for contingencies as the real criminals do. And a man may have a fleeting fantasy of violent sex without ever coming near to the act in reality. Something has to be bothering the would-be serial killer, mass murderer or rapist for a LONG ASS TIME for their rage to build to the point when they take action. And there's something very wrong with our culture and our humanity that no one in these (mostly) men's lives is there to help them before they take such extreme action.

I believe that if our culture were maybe just a little more relational, if conscious connection between people were just a little closer to the norm, instead of this perminent anonymity we see in the modern urban and cybernetic environments, we could prevent a lot of this kind of violence in the world. I believe the tipping point isn't really all that far away, but at the same time, if our culture refused to take the smallest step in that direction, we're screwed. And yes, it starts with treating children with respect as fellow human beings and recognizing abuse for what it is.

One place to start with men, as I've suggested before, is crying. If we as a culture forbade one or the other sex to shit or piss or to sweat, we could all see how that would lead to physical and probably psychological problems (as such privatio

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 7:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.

Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

No, Byte, as I said in the comments you JUST quoted: I don't want you to talk about it "AS IF" you know what you're talking about when you don't. There are lots of ways to talk about something you're not an authority on, without pretending that you are.

Byte, think. After all these years of you accusing me of wanting you to shut up, don't you think that if it were remotely true I would have admitted it by now??? That your constant accusations would have pushed me to blurt, "Oh my god, would you please shut up!" or something? Or somebody besides you would have accused me of wanting you to shut up?

And besides, isn't telling someone to shut up on the internet just about the most ineffectual thing a person could possibly do? Do you seriously think I'm that petty and foolish?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

PIRATENEWS

Monday, December 31, 2012 8:11 AM

Women are to blame for not loving their men/boys, thus driving them insane towards violence.

Dick Cheney's wife and spawn are both lesbians.

I rest my case.

ANTHONYT

Monday, December 31, 2012 1:53 PM

Please Disregard this message.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Monday, December 31, 2012 2:00 PM

Please Disregard this message.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

SIGNYM

Monday, December 31, 2012 4:47 PM

Quote:
Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: serial killers, mass murderers and rapists all have something in common psychologically. They all rehearse and fantasize their crimes well in advance, sometimes for years, before actually carrying them out. Any man who rapes has wanted to rape for a very long time before he goes through with it, finally. Same with serial killers and child molesters. There's got to be a reason they have these fantasies.

Violent TV shows, movies and video games, along with a predisposition to conflate violence with sex, or violence with pleasure? Seems to be that this violent visualizing has a lot of corporate help.

One of the things that bothers me is that alternate resolution.... negotiation, compromise, even walking away... are never modeled anywhere in the media, or if they are it's only as a prelude to splattery righteous bloodbath.

ANTHONYT

Monday, December 31, 2012 6:09 PM

Hello,

We all watch and enjoy violent entertainment. I'm guessing we're not all violent people.

I don't think it's Hollywood's fault. Nor the game developers.

I heard this sort of thing back in the day, with Dungeons and Dragons. Some D&D players became violent, so D&D was set to blame. They even made a Tom Hanks movie about it, if memory serves.

I didn't think much of it at the time, and still don't.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 7:03 PM

Hey Signy,

I don't think it's at all that simple. There is a use and a misuse of violent stories. Violent stories have been needed since we first sat around a fire and tried to move people. The old Punch and Judy Show was grotesquely violent, but it did not make its audience into murderers.

There is catharsis. Serial killers, mass murderers and rapists don't seem to have access to catharsis unless they act out. For some reason the story is never enough for such people and they have to act to achieve catharsis. Abusers cannot feel certain feelings so they force those feelings onto others. The feeling needs to be expressed one way or another, or so it seems. Their problem is that they have somehow radically lost access to their inner lives.

This is not the norm. But Hollywood violence is the norm. This part of culture I don't see as a chicken and egg situation. The violent acting out comes first and art follows it up with a dream of understanding. Every work of art, from Shakespeare to T.J. Hooker to Jersey Shore is trying to make meaning out of chaos, to create a moral order, to solve basic problems in survival vicariously. It's why we animals bother to make art and it's why we animals feel compelled to take it in. There's something there, in the story, that compels us. But for the serial murderers, mass murders and rapists, art simply cannot take the place of action. They must make their nightmares real for some reason, while the rest of us are content with waking up and with shuddering and with the gratitude that it was all just a dream.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Monday, December 31, 2012 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.

Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!
No, Byte, as I said in the comments you JUST quoted: I don't want you to talk about it "AS IF" you know what you're talking about when you don't. There are lots of ways to talk about something you're not an authority on, without pretending that you are.

Byte, think. After all these years of you accusing me of wanting you to shut up, don't you think that if it were remotely true I would have admitted it by now??? That your constant accusations would have pushed me to blurt, "Oh my god, would you please shut up!" or something? Or somebody besides you would have accused me of wanting you to shut up?

And besides, isn't telling someone to shut up on the internet just about the most ineffectual thing a person could possibly do? Do you seriously think I'm that petty and foolish?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

I think you don't know me, and I think you have no excuse dismissing my experience on the basis of what you've read with all your vaunted "expertise" that I don't have.

I hope you don't council people who have had experiences with sexual assault, because so far you're not being all that sensitive and understanding towards what they went through.

Perhaps the next one who walks in here, tell them that didn't happen to them and they're lying and full of shit and that they have no valid input on the issue and that they make a mockery of real victims. That's like a cherry on top of the sundae.

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 8:23 PM

WTF, Byte?

Why do you give me so much gorram power over you? For fuck's sake, I'm just a guy on the internet. I think I know some things, but I might be totally full of shit and you might be one person who knows it. You do realize that I can't have any power that you don't willingly give to me, right? Why give me such power, Byte? Really, why?

I experienced what you were saying about the whole incert thing as utterly grotesque and pure, misanthropic fiction. But that's my opinion. It's a strong opinion and one that gets all up in your grill, but it still just feedback from a stranger, take what you need and leave the rest.

Either what I have to say, however unflattering it is to you, has meaning to you, has some kernal of truth that you're wrestling with, or I am full of shit and don't know what the fuck I am talking about. Only you can say which it is. Why not pick one and either engage me in the discussion on rape and violence or write me off?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Monday, December 31, 2012 8:59 PM

Quote:
Either what I have to say, however unflattering it is to you, has meaning to you, has some kernal of truth that you're wrestling with

So denial is it? More denial? More didn't happen, I'm lying, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Has it occurred to you we might both have valid things to say? But no, you're right, I'm wrong, I don't know anything. My experience is invalid because you say so.

I have no interest in talking to you about this, or anything, if you won't even give me the credit of considering that my experiences might be real. Plenty other people for us both to talk to, and our interactions soured a long time ago. Scratch both our names from the note pad and lets move on.

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 9:36 PM

I don't think you're lying. Where did you get that idea? And my entire premise for talking to you and continuing to talk to you after all these years is that, of course, we both have something to say; that your opinion is valid. People whose opinions I do not value I do not talk to. Sometimes, certain things you say strike me as ill founded, or maybe thoughtless, even unkind (particularly toward yourself), but that never invalidates YOU. When two people disagree, there is more of an either/or at least structurally, but still, both people hold their own truths and nothing can change that.

I think you and I have a kind of Star Trek matter/anti-matter thing going on here. You are for yourself living proof that the evil in human beings comes from within, that despite love and kindness being given, people find it in themselves to do the worst possible things and that is our human nature in a nutshell (I am sorry if that is an unjust assessment of how you think, but it's the best approximation I have pending further inquiry). Even I can accept that there is some truth in that, but I am committed to the idea that it is not at all the whole story.

I, on the other hand, am a person who was violated and taught the most vile lies about humanity from the cradle and have found a way to heal in spite of all that and find the essential goodness in human beings. That is also a truth, a part of "the" truth, but I can acknowledge, much as it pains me, that that is not the whole story either.

But you and I are crusaders for our views of the world. We both have hard-won truths to share with this board, however incompatible our respective visions of the human story may be. You upset me and I upset you. But I'd be a total asshole if I didn't acknowledge that I have learned from our interactions over the years.

Strike me off your list if you must. It has occurred to me to do as much with you, but I always come back to my innate sense of kinship with you and my desire to somehow bridge our differences--without denying them--and find our common truth in all this.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Monday, December 31, 2012 11:54 PM

Hello,

If you're having an open discussion about a topic, and someone becomes so offended that they feel the need to leave, then something has gone wrong.

I regret this.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 12:21 AM

Hey Anthony,

Could you say more? To my mind whether one stays or leaves is deeply personal. Short of outright abusive language, do you think there's a way we can drive each other off that we as the "drivers" must take into account and curb?

Yes, there's the issue of "pushing people's buttons," but I gotta say I try to err on the side of allowing myself to risk pushing buttons, rather than hiding my thoughts to avoid a conflict. I believe in order to respect others, I must always remember that it is only a risk and not a mechanistic certainty that I'm gonna push people's buttons--to act as if it were a "fact" is to objectify the other person, in my opinion.

There have been plenty of times in my life when I've fretted that I was gonna push someone's buttons only to discover that I underestimated them. And I've learned that attempting to avoid button pushing generally leads to passive aggressive acting out. I don't find it possible, ultimately, to avoid conflict in an ongoing relationship--all we ever do is avoid TAKING RESPONSABILITY for the conflict that exists no matter how we handle it. Better to take responsability, acknowledge the conflict, to be plain and say what I mean and let us collectively come to a resolution if at all possible.

I'm sorry if this is a threadjack. For me it speaks directly to the issue of "blame" and personal boundaries that define what is violent/a violation and what is not/neutral.

Any thoughts?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:06 AM

Hello,

I think by dismissing Byte as having fantasyland thinking, pain was inflicted on her.

And I think that's not what we wanted to do here.

So this thread became a facet of the problem it was discussing.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 3:31 AM

I'm glad this thread didn't die while I was away.

Just some general responses to some of the conversation -

I can't abide victim blaming. No one deserves or is responsible for violence being inflicted upon them, even though they may have made poor choices which may have resulted in being in the wrong place or with the wrong person.

The long winded discussions around protection through strength or martial arts are pretty immaterial as far as I am concerned, especially when it comes to family violence. The violence I experienced impacted on me psychologically, so I couldn't make good decisions, couldn't demand to be treated how I thought I should be. Because victim blaming is so prevalent in our society, I felt responsible for the violence, and I felt ashamed for putting up with it, for allowing it to happen. I was so shamed I hid it from most people, even loved ones, long after the relationship was over, because of responses like Hero's. It took me a long time to be able to talk about it and not feel dirty and sullied, or weak and pathetic, when I was never any of those things.

My then partner used violence and put downs and humiliation because he felt powerless and he hated feeling that I might have had any power over him. He had very sexist views in general which were not obvious when we met (except in hindsight) but basically his needs and wants were always more important than mine. When I think back on it, I was barely human to him, just an accessary, someone to make him feel better, meet his needs.

It was hard to leave because I had been told for so long that I was worthless and unlovable and mad that I had started to believe it.

All these things are features of a violent relationship, so its not just about standing up for yourself physically. There are many ways that power can be abused in a relationship that make it hard to leave.

http://www.dvhelppenrithregion.nsw.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content
&view=article&id=4&Itemid=107

The cycle of violence in domestic abuse

Domestic abuse falls into a common pattern, or cycle of violence:

Cycle of violenceAbuse – Your abusive partner lashes out with aggressive, belittling, or violent behavior. The abuse is a power play designed to show you "who is boss."
Guilt – After abusing you, your partner feels guilt, but not over what he's done. He’s more worried about the possibility of being caught and facing consequences for his abusive behavior.
Excuses – Your abuser rationalizes what he or she has done. The person may come up with a string of excuses or blame you for the abusive behavior—anything to avoid taking responsibility.
"Normal" behavior — The abuser does everything he can to regain control and keep the victim in the relationship. He may act as if nothing has happened, or he may turn on the charm. This peaceful honeymoon phase may give the victim hope that the abuser has really changed this time.
Fantasy and planning – Your abuser begins to fantasize about abusing you again. He spends a lot of time thinking about what you’ve done wrong and how he'll make you pay. Then he makes a plan for turning the fantasy of abuse into reality.
Set-up – Your abuser sets you up and puts his plan in motion, creating a situation where he can justify abusing you.

Power can be abused by any gender in a relationship, but I firmly believe males use physical violence more often than women do.

Men and women are not the same. We have different biologies with different purposes, and although both genders are capable of using violence/physical aggression, men do so more often. I know some of you will be offended by that, but statistically, biologically its just there.

A rape insert seems to me to be akin to pre rape. It just kind of boggles my mind. Sexual assault does not have to include penetration, and one will be a victim of sexual violence even if you have a rape device and the rapist loses his penis. I think this whole scenario is very stra

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:31 AM

But Anthony,

In our society there is a ton of fantasyland when it comes to discussions of rape. There's a huge disconnect between what happens in reality and what people tend to imagine happens. In the public imagination rape is this thing that happens to careless women walking home alone in low cut dresses when some burley oversexed stranger jumps out from behind a hedge and holds a knife to her throat. That was the kind of rape Byte seemed to be discussing and it's presumably the kind of rape a vaginal contraption would be intended to prevent.

But stranger rape accounts for only 30% of reported rapes and with less than 40 percent of rapes actually reported it's safe to assume that stranger rape is gonna account for a lot more of the actually reported rapes than acquaintance rape is. So, stranger rape probably accounts for a lot fewer than 30% of actual rapes. And the vast majority of rapes happen indoors, in homes, not always the victim's but generally known to the victim. Less than 10% happen on the street.

All that stuff about rape at gun point or knife point and "what's the fun for him raping a dead chick?" Byte was writing bears little or no resemblance to what actually goes on in the great majority of cases. And I found it to be a supremely calous way of talking about the subject. So I said fantasyland because it is the unjustly prevalent fantasy of what rape is, and a cruel mockery of what the majority of actual victims experience.

I understand that that is not a very sensative way of putting it, but Byte was talking so glibly about "dead chicks" and such that it hardly seemed like she was treating it as a serious discussion. It came across as if she was using the topic as an outlet for her misanthropic imagination. So I meant to say, For cryin' out loud, please, take this discussion more seriously than that!!! "Don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about."

I'm sorry, Anthony, Byte's discussion of rape was offensive to me. I'm not actually used to being offended and I didn't react as wisely or circumspectly as I generally do. It might have been wiser for me to inquire: "Do you have any idea how unrealistic these rape scenarios are? Rape, in the vast majority of cases, is a betrayal of trust and a violation of existing intimacies between people. Etc." but it would not have expressed my feelings on the matter. I was disgusted by what I was reading, and as the thread wore on it only got worse, so I felt the need to speak up.

I'm not sure right now how to take your suggestion that my being rude to Byte rose to the level of gendered abuse and blaming of the victim. I want to repudiate it, but I'll sit with it for now. If you would care to say more on this subject I will listen, but if not, I'm okay with that as well. Thanks for listening.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:40 PM

TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:46 PM

You know, continuing to talk about me when we no longer want to talk to each other is pretty bullshit. I'm trying to honor my side of the deal, but it's like you're trying to provoke me.

Okay, 1) I never once said that I think that stranger danger is the biggest threat in terms of rape. I had both a friend and a brother who had stuff happen to them from close relatives, and so just with that example that already outnumbers the one case I can think of to the contrary.

2) Stranger Danger, however, is NOT "complete fantasy." The man who sexually assaulted me was not the big strong guy with a weapon stereotype, apart from being black, but he was small, old, not very strong. But I did not know the man, he just grabbed me after I answered some questions about the train schedule.

And you offend people who that has actually happened to by dismissing it. So, goddamn you, stop talking about "actual victims" like nothing ever once happened to me and I don't know what it's like. Like it's "misanthropic fantasyland." Fuck that.

3) When I said "dead chicks" it was in the sense of trying to get into the mind of what a rapist would think in that situation. I was saying what they would say, to illustrate the point of how I think that scenario would go.

4) YOUR attitude towards ME was offensive, and you're still holding your hands out going, What'd I do? What'd I do? Byte didn't know what she was talking about so I told her to shut up, what's wrong with that?

And at this point, I no longer care about you, or whether you believe me or not, but it is enraging me that you think you can talk about me after all this. In short, don't you fucking dare.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:56 PM

So, where WERE we in this thread????

HKCAV, CHRIS, AND TONY IIRC you all defended violent games and movies as "good clean fun". They don't get a "pass" from me because you think they're useful for catharsis and that they don't increase violent crime.

If I want to hit a perfect tennis stroke, or slalom with great form, ONE of the training techniques is to watch it done properly over and over. Your minds encodes the motion, the activity, and (ultimately) acceptance of the activity by repeated viewing. Seeing victims fall in front of you in first-person shooter games, or stealing cars and raping women (grand theft auto) has got to be unhealthy for ANY growing brain. And who are these games marketed to, mainly? Teenage males.

As I heard it, the current armed forces commanders are all happy about first-person shooter games because it fits in so nicely with drone piloting and advanced weaponry.

This may be one of those gender dividing lines... males, on the average, may want to activate their flight-flight hormones. Females may find such activation dangerous. It would be interesting to see by gender who purchases these games and the average levels of violence between purchasers and non-purchasers and between heavy users and non-users.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.

I agree with Sig, Anthony. Defending me is a pointless endeavor. It only makes things worse for me, and whoever is trying to defend me. I've given up on expecting respect. I can't even expect to convince people that my experiences happened.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:04 PM

BYTE- How do you feel about violent videogames? Do you buy them? Play them? Do you feel they're useful for catharsis, useful for practicing violence, or irrelevant to the way most people look at the world? Do you perceive, either thru your own experience of by observation of others, that there is an overall difference between genders in how these games are valued and viewed?

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm glad this thread didn't die while I was away.

Just some general responses to some of the conversation -

I can't abide victim blaming. No one deserves or is responsible for violence being inflicted upon them, even though they may have made poor choices which may have resulted in being in the wrong place or with the wrong person.

The long winded discussions around protection through strength or martial arts are pretty immaterial as far as I am concerned, especially when it comes to family violence. The violence I experienced impacted on me psychologically, so I couldn't make good decisions, couldn't demand to be treated how I thought I should be. Because victim blaming is so prevalent in our society, I felt responsible for the violence, and I felt ashamed for putting up with it, for allowing it to happen. I was so shamed I hid it from most people, even loved ones, long after the relationship was over, because of responses like Hero's. It took me a long time to be able to talk about it and not feel dirty and sullied, or weak and pathetic, when I was never any of those things.

My then partner used violence and put downs and humiliation because he felt powerless and he hated feeling that I might have had any power over him. He had very sexist views in general which were not obvious when we met (except in hindsight) but basically his needs and wants were always more important than mine. When I think back on it, I was barely human to him, just an accessary, someone to make him feel better, meet his needs.

It was hard to leave because I had been told for so long that I was worthless and unlovable and mad that I had started to believe it.

All these things are features of a violent relationship, so its not just about standing up for yourself physically. There are many ways that power can be abused in a relationship that make it hard to leave.

Magons: as I said to you already, I think you're actually very strong. I've never been in a domestic situation or even experienced psychical abuse from someone I know, but I do know what it's like to have someone play games to try to make you stay with them. That kind of manipulation is very hurtful, and it is really hard to break away. They make you apologize for things that weren't your fault. They tell you you're very important to them, but they don't really care about your opinions or your personal boundaries or your choices, they pressure you and override your personal decisions and pursue personal matters that are your business not theirs, and they don't actually care about you as a person. They tell you if you leave, they'll become suicidal, and they try to blame that on you. But you're not responsible for anyone's happiness but your own. And you stand your ground and get yourself away, and months later, they're fine and you know it was an act.

I didn't have anyone telling me that I was worthless though. :(

It's very hard what someone who is abusive will do to someone, it makes a very difficult situation to extricate yourself from, because you don't know what about them is real, if you actually would hurt them (and you care about if you're going to hurt them! After so many times they hurt you!), if they're really abusive. It is very hard to decide, no, this is abusive, and I'm not going to take this anymore.

So I say again, Magons. You're very strong.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:18 PM

Military training videos... so much more effective than having to train people IRL!

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science/military-training-videos-playl
ist.htm#video-30217

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BYTE- How do you feel about violent videogames? Do you buy them? Play them? Do you feel they're useful for catharsis, useful for practicing violence, or irrelevant to the way most people look at the world? Do you perceive, either thru your own experience of by observation of others, that there is an overall difference between genders in how these games are valued and viewed?

Depends on what you mean by violent, I tend to play games that don't even depict blood. MMORPGs mostly, there's fighting but it's not realistic. The only one I've played recently with any blood in it was the new Diablo, and you don't fight other people in that, you help people and have conversations with them, then you go out and fight zombies and undead things and monsters. But on the other hand, Diablo is pretty grim, it's a demonic invasion story so there's a lot of people who die before you can really help them.

I've never played FPS or RTS, which actually do have predominantly male gamers, but the gender gap is getting smaller. There are getting to be more girls who play those, they're kinda pioneers in the field and they catch a lot of flack from the dudebro crowd.

All the same, I'm not really comfortable blaming art for being the cause of social problems. That's how you get book burnings. Art is just a depiction of society. The only time you can say the art contributed to violence is when the violent actor lost the ability to tell the difference between fiction and reality. Even then, the art isn't to blame for that. The art just is, it's how people react to the art that potentially creates problems.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:51 PM

I've actually heard that training videos and video games are a poor substitute for hands on training. It's like that simulated study you guys were talking about after the Sandyhook gunman, where they gave people some hand gun training then put them in a room, they were all carrying but a more experienced shooter came in with a paintball gun and tagged them all anyway.

The only way to get good with a weapon is to have experience with it, practice with it. And even with a hyper-realistic game like Call of Duty, there were some studies done suggesting that Call of Duty couldn't teach the kids where the safety on a real gun was or how to reload a new magazine, you had to already know how to do that from somewhere else, generally from experience with an actual gun. About all a video game can do is teach someone hand eye coordination and aim, and that's without factoring in that real guns can pull off-center.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:53 PM

Art is not the media. Commercial media isn't "just a depiction of society" it is a profit-generating enterprise geared towards people who are easily parted from their money... 18-49 year-old males is the prime demographic, so I'm told.

An actual depiction of society wouldn't look ANYTHING like what we currently see on TV, in the movies, or in videogames. It would involved a lot more actual working people who live much more impoverished lives, a lot more women, and a lot more people of color. Instead, it still focuses on white yuppies leading rewarding lives of intense engagement as detectives and lawyers.

I understand your point about videos not preparing someone for action IRL. You DO need actual physical practice. But looking at a lot of videos involving shooting may bring that action to the fore in a situation, when the best action might be to walk away.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:58 PM

Well, that also says something about society then. The art itself isn't to blame for what's popular and in demand. It's not like big corporations are forcing violence on us. Violence in media is something society decided it wanted after it got sick of how stifling the Hayes Code was. Artists started testing the edges of the Hayes Code because art is about expression, and they push the edge because they know that's what creates interest among an audience. One trend later, pushing those boundaries got us to this level of violent depiction in about 50 years.

I still am not sure violent art actually causes more violence. It's not like the violence didn't exist anyway back when all the movies were sterilized. People in the middle east still killed each other. Husbands still raped their wives. Wars still happened. People talk about desensitization, but, isn't it more important to know that some things are real and they happen? I can't imagine living in a world where we keep everything bad all hushed up.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:13 PM

The media is structured the way it is because they sell advertising time. Men between 18-49 are the prime demographic because (1) they have more discretionary income than anyone younger (2) they are parted from their money more easily than either anyone who is older, or women. Most women in that age group are busy taking care of children... buying diapers, groceries and other necessities.

That leaves one group over-represented by a large margin; and therefore the product is going to be skewed.

If art were just a representation of "what is", it would look just like reality. But it doesn't, does it?

Art... not individually made art for private contemplation, but art made for and distributed to the masses... is an expression of something else. What we hold dear, or think is important. It's a form of propaganda and a mechanism of social cohesion. When I look at our "art"- commercials, TV shows, videogames and so forth... what I see are paeans to individuality, competition, greed, and consumption, the founding core of our corporate culture.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:20 PM

...I'm not sure that argument necessarily follows, unless we're prepared to argue there are no women who enjoy explosive action shows, splatter horror, or space cowboy shows.

The real difference between gender consumption of media isn't currently violence, it's how much romance in present in a show.

Also, what a show represents depends on the views of the creators. You say shows are all paeans to rugged individualism and consumerism, and yet a show like Star Trek promoted what appears to be a socialist society, and many of the producers, directors, and actors in Hollywood are liberal.

I don't deny there's propaganda, but the propaganda is all stuff like focusing on cops as heroes, or support our troops messages, or yanking messages they think might cause reactions that endanger public health. Like when the new redone series of V was preempted for a while because they were doing a storyline about tainted vaccines during a real world flu season crisis, it's obvious TPTB were concerned that the storyline would create real world risks. That's propaganda.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:26 PM

And the choice is between violence and romance? So the heroine's role in the story is to cling like a vine to the heroic male?

There are few representations of women having true friendships with other women, and with men. No representation of people banding together, except in that tight male-female dyad. The solution to your problems... bad schools, crappy jobs, rapacious banks... if to have sex with some hot guy.

Out of all of the things they COULD portray, they focus on (1) sex (romance) and (2) violence nearly all of the time. If you took that out of the programming, there would be nothing left! (There go the cop shows.)

Just trying to point out that our media has a very narrow scope, on purpose.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And the choice is between violence and romance? So the heroine's role in the story is to cling like a vine to the heroic male?

No... Not that I'm aware of. In fact there's a growing trend to have a schlubb boyfriend with a super girlfriend protecting him. Or bossing him around.

What you're talking about is more like garbage like Twilight, and I refuse to even touch that backwards oppressive drivel with a barge pole. At the same time, I can't deny it appears to still appeal to some portion of the population.

Both extremes of gender representations are pretty harmful.

But no, what I meant is, women are used to violence and action in media, some of them even enjoy it. But romance tropes in any media are still kinda kryptonite for a lot of guys. Girls are brought up with stories about princes, Guys are brought up with transformers and GI Joe, you get me?

And as a tomboy, it was a long time before I could see anything with romance tropes in it without feeling really embarrassed and kinda lessened, you know?

I'm sure there are guys who enjoy straight romance stuff, but I think they almost have to hide it because there's still such a strong gender role delineation in society.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:52 PM

BYTE, whether it's about a superhero girlfriend or a superhero boyfriend, it's still about sex and violence. It's so unrealistic that one can hardly say that's it's just an expression of the "real world", and it's so profit-driven that one can hardly claim that it just "gives people what they want".

Let me refer back to Umoja village in Kenya. I'm sure these women never saw this particular solution in the media. It's not violent, it's not corporatist (more cooperative), and it's not individualist. Our brains are trained by repeated exposure to expect certain things and to avoid certain things. We're driven like cattle by the media.

I have two friends who used to belong to the same cooperative with a lot of other well-meaning, highly intelligent and industrious men and women. Now, wouldn't THAT make a story!

BTW- in looking up this village (again!... every time I look it up, it's an internet adventure) I found this

6 Modern Societies Where Women Rule

Quote:
By standard definition, a matriarchy is a “family, group or state governed by a matriarch.” Anthropologists and feminists have since created more specific classifications for female societies, including the matrilineal system. Matrilineality refers not only to tracing one’s lineage through maternal ancestry, it can also refer to a civil system in which one inherits property through the matriline. This often leads to the division of such societies into matrilineal clans, or “matriclans.” Here are a few notable ones that still exist.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/132885#ixzz2Gkd3WHp0

ETA: I see you added to your post. I agree that the media reinforces gender stereotypes for the most part (if that's what you're saying)

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:01 PM

Quote:
BYTE, whether it's about a superhero girlfriend or a superhero boyfriend, it's still about sex and violence. It's so unrealistic that one can hardly say that's it's just an expression of the "real world", and it's so profit-driven that one can hardly claim that it just "gives people what they want".

There's probably some truth to that. But I think it's also important to recognize there's a feedback from the consumers since the Hayes Code, and that media has evolved into this from the consumers wanting more boundaries pushed.

Oh man! It occurs to me that we've gone this long and we haven't even discussed Twilight, which is like the grand central intersection for a lot of the subtopics in this conversation!

It's basically a story about two unlikeable characters, where the female alternates between being a doormat, distressed damsel, and occasionally a petty selfish person, and then the much more experienced guy she meets who's dark, brooding, and abusive. It's a modern crappy Bronte story.

Thing is, there's all these vampires and werewolves, and a war between them both, shown in mostly implied violence. But most guys won't even touch those books. Why? Because the bad over done romance stinks up the stories like garlic.

At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

Quote:
ETA: I see you added to your post. I agree that the media reinforces gender stereotypes for the most part (if that's what you're saying)

Yeah basically.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:13 PM

Hello,

If you don't like the video games or movies that are out there, and if you don't enjoy the messages they convey, you are free to create video games and movies that convey a message you like.

The recent, explosive popularity of a game called Minecraft demonstrated that people can enjoy the creation of things just as much as they enjoy the destruction of things. However, Minecraft did not inspire a real-life building boom that I know of.

I am not interested in the least on any suggestion of mandating any change to movies, television, or video games that requires them to change their message or alter their format.

I emphatically believe it is possible to enjoy violent movies, television, and video games without becoming violent. I emphatically believe that video games and visual entertainment reflect what people think the public wants to see.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:16 PM

Quote:
At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

Hello,

Yes. Most guys I know have no use for that tale. Too many women I know eat it up. Brooding dark stalker seems to have unexpectedly wide feminine appeal, coupled with 'two dudes fighting over me.'

But this is clearly not a fault of the shitty films or books. The author clearly tapped into something society wanted to consume.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:24 PM

There's nothing I know in literature that turns off guys faster to a story than the two guys fighting over a girl thing. I really don't know why girls romanticize it so much - in reality it's an extremely dangerous and volatile situation.

Then again, I suppose two girls fighting over a guy is a popular distaff counterpart trope. Or at least mud wrestling is. But it's not actually attractive when anyone acts like that in reality.

But more than that. Guys didn't even read the first Twilight book, where the werewolves and the rival love interest hadn't even made an appearance yet. And I think it's because guys can smell overdone romance stories like that a mile away, and generally it has no appeal to them.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

The recent, explosive popularity of a game called Minecraft demonstrated that people can enjoy the creation of things just as much as they enjoy the destruction of things.

My Son's absolute favourite game, much to my appreciation.
He does play the violent one as well, but nowhere NEAR as much as Minecraft.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

I hate stories where women are treated like clinging vines or doormats. Bores the crap out of me.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Magons: as I said to you already, I think you're actually very strong. I've never been in a domestic situation or even experienced psychical abuse from someone I know, but I do know what it's like to have someone play games to try to make you stay with them. That kind of manipulation is very hurtful, and it is really hard to break away. They make you apologize for things that weren't your fault. They tell you you're very important to them, but they don't really care about your opinions or your personal boundaries or your choices, they don't actually care about you as a person. They tell you if you leave, they'll become suicidal, and they try to blame that on you. But you're not responsible for anyone's happiness but your own. And you stand your ground and get yourself away, and months later, they're fine and you know it was an act.

I didn't have anyone telling me that I was worthless though. :(

It's very hard what someone who is abusive will do to someone, it makes a very difficult situation to extricate yourself from, because you don't know what about them is real, if you actually would hurt them (and you care about if you're going to hurt them! After so many times they hurt you!), if they're really abusive. It is very hard to decide, no, this is abusive, and I'm not going to take this anymore.

So I say again, Magons. You're very strong.

Thanks Ms Byte, I appreciate your comments. Yes, I can see I am strong, but it took me a long time to realise it. Happy with a great man for 17 years now, so the past no longer has any hold on me.

Hero's comments didn't hurt me, btw. I just wanted to point out that those sort of attitudes are what keep women shamed and silent about their abuse.

What you have described *is* abuse, even though it isn't physical. Sometimes that stuff is worse, because its hard to name and no one around you gets it. They just think he's lovely etc etc

Twilight and its porno offshoot 50 Shades are a worrying phenomenum, particularly if you are young and foolish and think that love should involve being a doormat.

Sig, I too have issues with violence in video games and films. I don't believe they soothe or relieve tension in any healthy way. You blow people to smithereens to relax, really? How about a run? According to educators, especially early childhood ones, they *do* impact on children's behaviour and shape their play.

The content of screen violence is so much more violent than 20 years ago, so much more graphic and obscene. As a society, our appetite for violent images is certainly increasing, and then there is the whole can of worms of pornography.

But again, like guns, people like this stuff. They don't want any infringements on their invididual liberty to watch and play as much depraved stuff as they choose. So again, we hit a dead end on what people are prepared to change.

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, where WERE we in this thread????

HKCAV, CHRIS, AND TONY IIRC you all defended violent games and movies as "good clean fun". They don't get a "pass" from me because you think they're useful for catharsis and that they don't increase violent crime.

Oh golly. It's weird you got "good clean fun" out of my post about art and it's use and misuse.

Playing tons of first person shooters is, no doubt, fucked up. And no doubt the repetition can condition the mind. And yeah, I would worry about a teenager in my care who spent hour upon hour murdering people in his fantasy life. But I continue to believe that it's a public health issue and not an indicator for violent criminal behavior. I'm just not ready to say that such games are a cause of violence. I consider them a symptom.

One of my best friends in the world, a woman, was for years obsessed with playing first person shooters. She was very good at the headshot. Even just watching her play made me feel ill. I know she comes from a violent childhood, she was an "army brat," and that these games were for her cathartic. Does that mean I think the games are intrinsically cathartic? No. I tried to play them a couple times, but the whole exercise was too ugly and disturbing for me.

I've been interested lately in the divide between people who like horror movies and people who can't stand them. Many women I know are adamantly anti-horror movie. Not so much the men, though I know plenty who aren't fans. I don't like the mindless slasher torture porn kind of movies. I find them numbingly dull and depressing and in the case of the torture crap, of which I've seen perhaps ten whole minutes in a lifetime, heartbreaking and unwatchable. But I'm fascinated by what I call "good" horror movies and stories.

I don't think there's any doubt that the rise in the popularity of torture porn (I mean stuff like "Saw" or "Hostel") coincides with our country's decade long affirmation of torture as "just another tool in the tool box." And I also have absolutely no doubt that the increase in these movies being made and consumed by the public in no way contributed to our government embracing their policy of torture. I tend to see the process like this: people experience violence in their lives. It overwhelms them and causes their psyches to fixate on the issue, making them intensely curious. The movie "Saw" comes out and it's a huge, huge success because people are subconsciously drawn to the subject of torture. Your cynical marketers begin to see the shift in public tastes and exploit it.

What are you proposing we do about the violence in media? Censor it? We have ratings on the games you're talking about, however ineffectual that may be in keeping them out of the hands of children. What more can be done?

Quote:
This may be one of those gender dividing lines... males, on the average, may want to activate their flight-flight hormones. Females may find such activation dangerous. It would be interesting to see by gender who purchases these games and the average levels of violence between purchasers and non-purchasers and between heavy users and non-users.

Is it a cultural gender divide or a genetic one in your view? Our culture is so saturated with violence it's hard to know what the real sources of individual violence are. I think of parents putting their infant child in a dark room and closing the door; listening to their own child cry the way a baby cries when they fear death and letting it go on until the child has lost all hope of rescue, night after night. I think of doctors committing the first act of violence a boy child ever knows by hacking off the skin of the child's penis. Recently it's occurred to me that the curse "fuck you!" may be an unconcious wish that the person "get fucked," in other words, I wonder if it

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:29 PM

Re: Victim Blaming.

In case anyone hadn't noticed...
*cringing slightly*

There's one subfacet of victim-blaming that will instantly, absolutely, drive me round the bend foamy-rabid berserk, and thus may not actually entail a rational response.

"How DARE you defend yourself!"

Seriously, there's just no way in hell or heavens creation I am ever going to be even the slightest bit rational about it, being that I am fundamentally incapable of having any reaction BUT passionate berserk rage to even the mere concept of it.

Take yourself a long quiet moment and think about that a bit.
Consider why that is.

-Frem

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:46 PM

Frem, maybe be less oblique in your responses. I sometimes have trouble in working out what the point is you are trying to make.

I don't have an issue with people defending themselves, but using violence against violence always strikes me as a bit of a strange one. If you meet violence head on with violence, you run the risk of a lot of collatoral damage.

Don't get me wrong, if anyone comes near hurting a hair on my son's head, they would face the wrath of a lioness. But violence and the extent to which it is used is also a choice.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 4:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

"How DARE you defend yourself!"

Yeah, because only the *Authorities* can rationally & emotionless-ly judge what meets the strict & necessary guidelines for reasonable & constrained self-defence.

Bull-fracking-cowpies.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Don't get me wrong, if anyone comes near hurting a hair on my son's head, they would face the wrath of a lioness.

And you would face the wrath of State prosecutors bent on extracting civil penalties for your actions.
Plus $'s for pain & suffering for the poor perp from your bite-wounds.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 4:45 AM

really? sounds like in some states you can blow someone away with imunity on the 'stand your ground' defence.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
really? sounds like in some states you can blow someone away with imunity on the 'stand your ground' defence.

Actually, it seems to work out here that if you KILL someone in a tussle it's BETTER for you than if you simply break their leg with a kick (or claw them Lioness style). I am truly disgusted by the legal (read:money) systems in place all over.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 7:28 AM

Regarding the actual article that priest is whacked, he talks about men as inferior beings who can't control themselves, who aren't responsable for their actions and that is stupid and not acceptable to me.

Rape is always bad.

Anthropology is cool Signe.

My little brother loves Mindcraft, as does my little nephew, they like playing it together.

Videogames/violent movies: Our ancestors would go to hangings, watch people get eaten by lions at the Colecium and any number of other barbaric acts around the world historically. So playing a fake game about violence doesn't seem so bad in comparison. The flip side to that though is that if you're watching people get eaten by lions you know its absolutely real, you know the cause and affect and can really understand what that means, whereas when you shoot people up on your game consol you're removed from it, it being pretend. So I think the key here is enforcing the concept of cause and affect, the difference between pretend and real. I also think that making sure kids are playing age apropriate games when they're little is important because that way they can form proper cause and affect understandings and _then play those shoot 'em up games once they have those concepts down..

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I can't even understand where you're coming from.

I'm with ya Byte. Women are every bit as physically violent as men. They just hide it better, engage in different types of physical violence, and/or don't get convicted.

-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I can't even understand where you're coming from.

I'm with ya Byte. Women are every bit as physically violent as men. They just hide it better, engage in different types of physical violence, and/or don't get convicted.

-----

As in child abuse? Or self-harm? Or what do you mean by hide it better?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:20 PM

CHRIS, BYTE, HK, CTS, et al

Back in the '30s, tobacco companies wanted more people smoking. So they contracted with the studios to have all of their big-name stars smoke in all of their films: John Wayne, Lauren Bacall, Joan Crawford, Humphrey Bogart... . Smoking was cool, it was sophisticated, it was urbane. All of the scenes were wreathed in cigarette smoke.

Quote:
Glantz and Robert Jackler, MD... used once-secret tobacco industry documents to trace Hollywood-tobacco marketing deals to the early days of movie making, including Al Jolson in the silent film era. The study titled, "Big Tobacco in Hollywood, 1927-1951," published Sept. 24 online in the journal Tobacco Control."Commercial arrangements between the movie industry and tobacco companies were there from the very beginning," said Glantz, director of UCSF's Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education.

And yanno what? IT WORKED! People... younger people especially... started smoking.

The tobacco industry did it again in the 1980s...

Quote:
The 1980s saw undertakings by four tobacco companies, Philip Morris, RJ Reynolds (RJR), American Tobacco Company, and Brown and Williamson to place their products in movies...[and] television. Each company hired aggressive product placement firms to represent its interests in Hollywood. These firms placed products and tobacco signage in positive situations that would encourage viewers to use tobacco and kept brands from being used in negative situations. At least one of the companies, RJR, undertook an extensive campaign to hook Hollywood on tobacco by providing free cigarettes to actors on a monthly basis.

http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/11/suppl_1/i81.full
And yanno what?? IT WORKED AGAIN! Adolescent smoking went through the roof! YAY! for the tobacco industry! Right?

Now think about religion. For a part of the population, it is thumped at them from the pulpit, the radio, the television, the internet, from home. Why do people believe in what is clearly unsupportable by simple daily observation? Because everyone else they know does. Because it's what they see, what they hear; it's thumped at them constantly.

Now think of pornography. If this isn't a content which the makers can claim fills a demand, I can't imagine what does. And yet women are complaining that men's approach to sex... which they once learned by trial and error and maybe a few magazines along the way... has become formulaic and devoid of personal involvement.

Now, imagine an entire visual media soaked with images of guns, shootings, knifings... killings of many kinds. Think of all of those detective shows, spy thrillers, westerns, alien invasion movies, zombie apocalypses, supernatural thrillers, World War II movies, robbery-and-mayhem video games. Wow, images of death multiple times a day, as many times as you want. It's kind of hard to avoid, actually.

Propaganda works. What you're seeing is nothing more and nothing less than a propaganda campaign. Like ALL good propaganda, it taps into at least one essential drive of the human psyche... in THIS case sex, acceptance, and safety. Just look at WULF. The guy could hardly express his righteous rage without resorting to a stirring movie clip. I don't believe that violent images are about catharsis as much as they are about addiction.

So, we are awash in fictionalized violence which (BTW) studies have shown desensitize people to ACTUAL violence. Maybe that is why 40% of the people in the USA think that the answer to gun deaths is MORE GUNS! In my observation, behind every idiocy is a successful propaganda campaign, and this is nothing more than an addiction.

As far as past expression of violence... there is a HUGE difference in actual violence versus fictionalized violence. ACTUAL violence makes people more afraid of it, fictionalized violence creates a kind of numbness. People see death on TV a dozen times a day, but until you have sat with someone w

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:30 PM

Hello,

What on Earth can you possibly be suggesting be done?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:32 PM

Quote:
The Iriquos were a matricharcal(sp) society before the coming of the Europeans.

Not many ppl know that. I believe the original work was done by Morgan, yes?

There is some question as to how many matrilineal societies "white man" may have destroyed when their traders and generals would only meet with/ pass rewards through men. Because, in the white world, when they said "take me to your leader" if they were taken to see a woman they may have kept simply repeating the question unilt some guy was shoved in front of them.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:33 PM

TONY, I would ban all broadcast and cable media. It's not an expression of "freedom" it is a totally controlled top-down propaganda tool which creates a synthetic reality. I would make sure the internet stays free... and I mean REALLY free, not subject to copyright restrictions. Democratic, bottom-up communication.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:50 PM

See, this is where I see television and movies and other propaganda laden cesspits as an important stop gap. Because so long as a medium TPTB has already taken over exists and so long as the TPTB think the internet is - LOLWUTICANHASCHEEZEBURGERBBQ - looks photoshoped lightng is bad - moon landing was faked - tht vidio sux cockmonger - they don't have as much reason to try to control or contain it.

I salute the brave soldiers of the internet and their equally brave brain cells for taking the burden of this task from the rest of our shoulders.

Sometimes I wonder if it's because of PN's singlehanded stalwart reporting efforts that this board hasn't been raided.

Also eventually the old obsolete technology can become havens for hobbyists, like ham radio, which can also be useful tools if no one's expecting that.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I can't even understand where you're coming from.

I'm with ya Byte. Women are every bit as physically violent as men. They just hide it better, engage in different types of physical violence, and/or don't get convicted.

-----

As in child abuse? Or self-harm? Or what do you mean by hide it better?

Child abuse is always an overlooked problem.

But what I'm kinda thinking of is there's this condescending attitude towards women, like if a lady starts throwing ceramic-ware and beer bottles at her boyfriend's head, it seems to get laughed off and nobody ever does anything about it because 1) the guy is perceived to have deserved it 2) the girl is just a girl and not a threat, and 3) women are a mystery.

The guy probably doesn't own up to being scratched up by a hellcat or bruised by her hitting him unless the cops get involved for a domestic disturbance call. And then domestic abuse is probably not likely to get called on the girl unless she's like my aunt and she and her husband have broken each other's ribs in a fistfight on the kitchen floor. It seems to have to be really serious for the woman to be implicated in domestic abuse.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
TONY, I would ban all broadcast and cable media. It's not an expression of "freedom" it is a totally controlled top-down propaganda tool which creates a synthetic reality. I would make sure the internet stays free... and I mean REALLY free, not subject to copyright restrictions. Democratic, bottom-up communication.

Hello,

Is this an attempt to be comical? You would remove the rights of people to broadcast? To consume their favored programs via paid cable services?

And what will you do when the totally free internet produces violence and porn in epic, saturating quantity?

You seem to enjoy freedom so much that you would extinguish all undesirable forms of it in order to secure it.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

And what will you do when the totally free internet produces violence and porn in epic, saturating quantity?

o.o

>_>

I was under the impression that the internet is already mostly p0rn, blue dart contests, and stupid skateboarding injuries.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

And what will you do when the totally free internet produces violence and porn in epic, saturating quantity?

o.o

>_>

I was under the impression that the internet is already mostly p0rn, blue dart contests, and stupid skateboarding injuries.

Hello,

What is a blue dart contest?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:57 PM

Quote:
But what I'm kinda thinking of is there's this condescending attitude towards women, like if a lady starts throwing ceramic-ware and beer bottles at her boyfriend's head, it seems to get laughed off and nobody ever does anything about it because 1) the guy is perceived to have deserved it 2) the girl is just a girl and not a threat, and 3) women are a mystery.

Hello,

This is a very apt observation. When a woman slaps a man or throws something at him, both in reality and in television and movies, it is seen as acceptable behavior. He shouldn't have said what he said, or cheated on her, or whatever other behavior was found wanting.

I have the feeling that if a man slaps a woman or throws objects at her, it is perceived entirely differently.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:59 PM

It's, um, when you've eaten a lot of beans and you have a lighter or match or some other portable device that can create a sustained flame (probably not an arc welder or flamethrower. Note to Self: try both).

But you have to be careful it doesn't backfire on you.

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 7:40 PM

Signy,

You're talking about a culture-wide conspiracy of some kind. You're obsessed with a "they" that's trying to destroy an "us." That kind of thinking can also be the result of media saturation. Us and them. But it's also supported by religion, and is promoted by our militaristic government. It's part of a psychology that longs for control.

But control is an illusion, so the mind obsessed with control generally ends up with domination. And the psychology that longs for control and domination is particularly susceptible to addictive processes and substances. The addict is trying to control aspects of her life that are by their nature uncontrollable--doubt, fear, loneliness, sorrow. Signy, I think you're kinda fear-mongering in your fight against the fear-mongers; fighting fire with fire and when you do that the house burns down.

The fabulous little "they" you've included me in with Messrs Isall and T and Mses Mite and Sky are all people, I believe, who have a deep appreciation for the folly, the danger, of too much of this longing for control. So we're never mad enough at "them" for you. We're never willing to do what you demand must be done as quickly as you require it to be done. And lord knows, we don't think properly.

We're all people who question the need for "leaders" and "masters," full stop. And not just politically/externally, but psychologically/internally. Follow your heart is as good a path as any and better than most, but in this upside-down and backward world you have to find your heart first. People who demand control all too often think they can skip that step. They think they can reach straight for the answers and fix the problem. Feelings just slow you down.

Do you really think there are military operatives striking deals with game designers to promote a murderous culture? You think that's why a game like Grand Theft Auto exists? And yeah, as Anthony said, if that's all true, what the heck are we gonna do to combat it?

Me, I think combat is a problem, conceptually. I'm a much bigger fan of integration. Now conflict, of course, is unavoidable at times and it's part, I think, of how our minds deal with certain realities. But I do think it's possible, if we're lucky and we're paying attention, to choose what form our conflict takes. I think the best form is internal conflict. And I think violent art and imagery can be used and processed as part of our internal conflict. Like an extention of our dreams. That's what I mean by catharsis.

That seemed to piss you off. You seem to have disdain for this idea of catharsis. Is that true?

Of course, catharsis is actually the antithesis of control. The catharsis that the ancient Greek audience had at the end of Oedipos the King when he put out his own eyes had nothing to do with control or a prescription for how to live (Don't fuck your mother), nothing to do with propaganda. It was something mysterious about the difficulty of being human, something to do with our eternal vulnerabilities and definitely the dangers of thinking we have all the answers.

This extraordinary violence in our culture is happening, right now. It's bigger than all of us, right now. It's like a wildfire, out of control. I think trying to combat it actually just makes it stronger. Trying to control it just makes it more dangerous.

I think we need to learn that "them" is just "us" when we get fixated on one problem and ignore a whole lot of others. "They," for some reason, don't understand the situation as "we" do. So, educate them. But first, learn to understand them better, not as the "them" that's trying to destroy us, but as people, like "us," who are just doing the best they can with what they're given.

Am I just making excuses when I talk like this? Am I being defeatist?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don'

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The fabulous little "they" you've included me in with Messrs Isall and T and Mses Mite and Sky are all people, I believe, who have a deep appreciation for the folly, the danger, of too much of this longing for control.

Yep. And I loved that scene in Jurassic Park where Ellie was yelling at John about control. A real message amongst the dino antics.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Frem, maybe be less oblique in your responses. I sometimes have trouble in working out what the point is you are trying to make.

I don't have an issue with people defending themselves, but using violence against violence always strikes me as a bit of a strange one. If you meet violence head on with violence, you run the risk of a lot of collatoral damage.

There is that.

I was hoping to inspire a certain introspection and see if anyone else would make the same connections and if they internalized them - cause basing on that understanding we could get down to the nitty-gritty, but apparently I've been too vague and failed here, and thus will have to spell it out, and try to do it without lecturing/pontificating, and keep a grip on my temper, and try to be rational about it....
*sigh*
Not gonna be easy that, and it deserves a far better treatment than I am likely to give it, but I will try, okay ?
Might take a bit, post New Years disaster cleanup, and seeing to the pet of someone here in the hospital due to a medical issue, which isn't technically part of my job, but given my affinity for animals, well...

Speakin of, in the meantime here's a picture of Molly, since she was trying to "help" while I was TRYING to take pictures of something else, little attention whore.

-Frem

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

But what I'm kinda thinking of is there's this condescending attitude towards women, like if a lady starts throwing ceramic-ware and beer bottles at her boyfriend's head, it seems to get laughed off and nobody ever does anything about it because 1) the guy is perceived to have deserved it 2) the girl is just a girl and not a threat, and 3) women are a mystery.

The guy probably doesn't own up to being scratched up by a hellcat or bruised by her hitting him unless the cops get involved for a domestic disturbance call. And then domestic abuse is probably not likely to get called on the girl unless she's like my aunt and she and her husband have broken each other's ribs in a fistfight on the kitchen floor. It seems to have to be really serious for the woman to be implicated in domestic abuse.

I think there is some truth here. It doesn't even up the numbers, but it does men that male victims of family violence get a raw deal and are often not taken seriously.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:38 PM

Quote:
Do you really think there are military operatives striking deals with game designers to promote a murderous culture? You think that's why a game like Grand Theft Auto exists? And yeah, as Anthony said, if that's all true, what the heck are we gonna do to combat it?

At least one game has been sponsered by the American military, and some others do their work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/11/19/video-games-effe
ctive-form-of-recruitment-for-army.aspx

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:44 PM

Quote:
And yeah, as Anthony said, if that's all true, what the heck are we gonna do to combat it?

Hello,

Apparently, ban various media.

The righteous are so often willing to do the hard work that the unjust villains can't do themselves.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:47 PM

HKC... while I appreciate your deep psychological insight, it will not stop foreclosures and unemployment. There is indeed an "us" and a "them". All you have to do is look around and see that the world isn't functioning for most people, that most wealth floats to those produce the least but who are masterful at placing themselves at the carotid of a some vital societal function... trade, work, communication... and sucking the lifeblood out of it. No deep insight and inner balance is going to erase that.

What does government do? Throughout history, it's main function has been to distribute "excess" wealth. Government and wealth have always been tied together. But how does one get others to accept unequal sharing? You can't control everyone with force. There has to be some minimum buy-in, the society needs to share common paradigms and memes about what is "right", what is "good", who is supposed to do what, who gets the rewards, who is protected.

That Indian woman who was raped and beaten and tossed out of a bus on her head... Do you know why there is such an outcry?? Because she was a med student, an upper caste woman of the middle class. This kind of thing... it's not supposed to happen to med students. But it happens all the time to Dalit teenagers, those rapes are even photographed by the rapists and STILL the conviction rate is very low and nobody cares.

So the answer is: Yes, there is a "culture-wide conspiracy". There is one in India, there's a different one here, another in Russia, pretty much all over the world and throughout history. And if you look at the bases for each one, it's almost universally in favor of those in power. I wonder why.

I'm not angry. I don't even understand why you would see it that way.

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:49 PM

I'm aware of that, M. And one or two or five examples doesn't change a dang thing, does it? What do you think is going on here?

A lot of software gets it start in some branch of military R&D, a lot of tech does, period. The internet itself started out as a military application. Does that mean we should get rid of our computers?

It's still a leap of some magnitude, I think, from there to a coordinated propaganda campaign that's destroying our culture and turning our youth into addicts. Are you onboard with Signy's analysis?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:55 PM

Quote:
Hello, Is this an attempt to be comical? You would remove the rights of people to broadcast? To consume their favored programs via paid cable services?

Is THIS an effort to be comical? PEOPLE would have the right to "broadcast", via internet, their art works, productions, opinions etc. I specifically said that the internet should be free. How does that impinge on your freedom? I thought that was guaranteed?

Quote:
To consume their favored programs via paid cable services?

Well, nothing prevents you from buying whatever is on the net.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 2, 2013 10:00 PM

HKC... You're confusing what I said. I didn't say it was a COORDINATED propaganda campaign. It's always a question... is this a conspiracy or a club? Sometimes it's a little of both. Those in power share certain assumptions about why they should be in power. Those out of power are taught certain assumptions about why this should be so. Sometimes it crosses over into outright conspiracy... sometimes it's just the government preventing certain embarrassing events from being disseminated. Businesses directing the conversation away from their clay feet. Advertising making billions by making people more tractable. Yanno, protecting "their" interests.

As to the FORM of communication... broadcast is centralized and top-down. It's like the church or the school telling you how and what to think. Those are all forms of social control.

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