What's the deal with KPO?

POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Friday, June 7, 2013 19:26
VIEWED: 22047
PAGE 1 of 2

1 2 NEXT PAGE LAST PAGE

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:21 PM

Hey everybody,

I don't know what KPO thought he was doing starting that attack thread on Jongsstraw (couldn't even be bothered to spell the man's handle correctly). And yes, it was a (passive aggressive, to be sure) attack thread. You start a thread where you invite a bunch of people who've made their contempt for Jongsstraw abundantly clear to speculate on what happened to make him so impolite. Gee, what could it be??? How do y'all miss that the thread title answers its own question? It really disgusts me sometimes the way the lefties hereabout claim the moral high ground in one breath and then endlessly demean and objectify the right-leaning posters with whom they share this board in the next.

I don't know how the right-wing folks do it. I mean, how they put up with the ENDLESS insults and petty-ass namecalling. "Raptard?" Really? What the fuck kind of way is that to talk to another human being? And the "Little Rappy's" and even "Jongsie's" that y'all throw around and then you turn around and expect to be treated only with respect in return?

Y'know what happened? I'm thinking Jongs got fed up with being treated like the token semi-human conservative on the board. It is disgusting that you should expect civility from ANYONE when you treat them so poorly, so entirely dismissively.

Y'know, when I address a post of mine to Jongsstraw, he almost always replies and when he does, he does so with all the grace and civility I could hope for. I think it might just be because I don't treat the man like ambulatory shit.

You want to be treated right? Treat people right. Period, end of story.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:27 PM

This is fair.

I approached the thread with an actual attempt at bridge mending, but having misread KPO's intentions, I am now less able to mediate with Jongstraw because I now appear insincere. A ration of very similar malicious threads demanding explanations from other board members has become a warning sign for conservatives to stay clear or prepare to fight. And then when they rightfully suspect that they'll get attacked if they post there, the other board members call them cowards and liars for refusing to walk into an obvious trap.

I have perhaps more issues with you than anyone else here, HK - you're in a group of three people who I avoid replying to their posts. But in this case it was necessary. You might be the only one who can be successful now at restoring some semblance of okayness around the board.

KPO

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:55 PM

I bear Jongs no ill will (on the contrary, I've always kinda liked him); I just want to know what his current deal is.

Quote:
Y'know what happened? I'm thinking Jongs got fed up with being treated like the token semi-human conservative on the board.

This speculation belongs in the Jongsstraw thread, not the kpo thread.

It's not personal. It's just war.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:02 PM

Well, no, it doesn't, because it's not meaning to explain Jongstraw's behaviour but rather call you guys out.

Jongstraw doesn't have to justify himself anymore than any of you do, but you feel like you get the privilege of demanding a justification... Why exactly?

Because you were picking a fight. Whether or not you realized it.

I see now that this is where I went wrong with Jongstraw, whatever insights I might've thought I had. I am again sorry for my contributions to that fight.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:29 PM

Since I've been coming to this boards, the venom has definitely been coming from both right and left.

Did you miss the 'libtards' 'feminazis' 'libs hate freedom, work, babies' comments?

Not saying that justifies doing it, but it definitely has not been a 'left attack right board'.

What I have noticed is there are few right winged posters who post intelligently. Jongs used to be one of them.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:42 PM

Oh, certainly. But whenever I talk to some of the people on the left about the kind of stuff they say to the right wing, (you aren't among them as far as I can tell Magons), the response I get back is that the right wing has said far worse things to them.

And Wulf did once call someone on the left something I won't repeat here, and often expresses a wish that person should die. That is inappropriate. But you know what else is inappropriate? Telling Wulf that he should "stop breeding" or that his daughter is screwed because he's her father. Expressing a wish that Wulf might shoot himself someday because he loves his guns so much.

So it isn't about who said the worst thing, it's about not insulting other people just because they disagree. Not calling them liars or cowards if they aren't able to explain their opinion to the satisfaction of people who will probably never be satisfied by their explanation, or if they ignore something their side considers irrelevant, but the other side believes causes their argument to fall apart. Not provoking people into a fight so they act out and confirm some existing prejudice so people feel like they have a free pass to abuse them. It doesn't convince anyone, doesn't help the argument, it just makes things around here hostile, until there aren't any talking points or discussions except for left wing versus right wing.

KIRKULES

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:15 PM

Most of the regulars in RWED are capable of semi-civil conversation, but there are less than a half a dozen that are only here to fan the flames. They enjoy the fights more than the discussion and never have any serious contribution to the current topic. I think if the people on the left and right made a list of the flame faners we'd probably agree on four out of six. I've been in some pretty serious flame wars around here in the past and you can tell who the serious posters here are by the way they treat you in the next thread after a flame war. For most all is forgiven an forgotten in the next thread, but of course the few insist on battles being carried thread to thread. I think the most helpful thing which I know is impossible for me is to just ignore the few and only respond to those that have made a serious attempt at discussing the current subject. I know this has been suggested many times and will never happen, but as much as I love a good flame war they do become tiresome.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well, no, it doesn't, because it's not meaning to explain Jongstraw's behaviour but rather call you guys out.

Jongstraw doesn't have to justify himself anymore than any of you do, but you feel like you get the privilege of demanding a justification... Why exactly?

Because you were picking a fight. Whether or not you realized it.

I see now that this is where I went wrong with Jongstraw, whatever insights I might've thought I had. I am again sorry for my contributions to that fight.

Please don't be so melodramatic Byte. None of it is a big deal. It's actually all a bit ridiculous. So relax, you've been fair and I like you.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:29 PM

Quote:
Please don't be so melodramatic Byte. None of it is a big deal. It's actually all a bit ridiculous.

I sometimes *DO* kinda do that... >_> v_v

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Hey everybody,

I don't know what KPO thought he was doing starting that attack thread on Jongsstraw (couldn't even be bothered to spell the man's handle correctly). And yes, it was a (passive aggressive, to be sure) attack thread. You start a thread where you invite a bunch of people who've made their contempt for Jongsstraw abundantly clear to speculate on what happened to make him so impolite. Gee, what could it be??? How do y'all miss that the thread title answers its own question? It really disgusts me sometimes the way the lefties hereabout claim the moral high ground in one breath and then endlessly demean and objectify the right-leaning posters with whom they share this board in the next.

I don't know how the right-wing folks do it. I mean, how they put up with the ENDLESS insults and petty-ass namecalling. "Raptard?" Really? What the fuck kind of way is that to talk to another human being? And the "Little Rappy's" and even "Jongsie's" that y'all throw around and then you turn around and expect to be treated only with respect in return?

Y'know what happened? I'm thinking Jongs got fed up with being treated like the token semi-human conservative on the board. It is disgusting that you should expect civility from ANYONE when you treat them so poorly, so entirely dismissively.

Y'know, when I address a post of mine to Jongsstraw, he almost always replies and when he does, he does so with all the grace and civility I could hope for. I think it might just be because I don't treat the man like ambulatory shit.

You want to be treated right? Treat people right. Period, end of story.

Brilliant! Inspired! I'm quite verklempt after reading your words. Nothing else to say except Thank You.

KPO

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:54 PM

Just to be clear Jongs, I'm not trying to 'attack' you - certainly not in any injurious way. However I do think you deserve a slap for your recent spamming behaviour (and before you or anyone says it, no Niki doesn't do the same thing).

In other words act like Whozit or PN, and that's how I'll treat you.

It's not personal. It's just war.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:57 PM

HKC:

We're like the stereotype of an Italian family, those of use who've known each other a long time. Yes, there is mean crap said often, and some of it crosses a line.

What I've come to peace with is that most of the mud slinging is between those who willingly and repeatedly climb into the mud pit. I see Rappy and Jongs as folk who get off on the attacks aimed their way, because they do all they can to incite it. So I don't feel bad saying crap to them. I believe they are dishonest as to how they present themselves here. They are artificial personalities. The months and years of insults they've "endured" don't hurt them because the characters they play here aren't real.

On the other hand, Wulf, as much as he drives me nuts, I see as a real person. The crap said to him was indeed beyond the line of acceptable. Because it really does apply.

I've had my own moments of disgust with this place and how we treat each other, but I think I've actually learned a lot from it. There's no other place where I can let go of restraint and tell someone (or some construction) exactly what I think of them. And then I have to deal with the consequences. I can't safely do this in real life.

I value this site as a place to experiment. In RWED I've learned to trust my gut. My gut has very specific things to say about the likes of Rappy and Jongs, among others.

I really do like you and I'm sad that this has been upsetting. I understand. And yet, I make no promises to change. Sorry. As long as these posters continue to act as they do, my reaction is the same:

Whole hearted mockage.

NIKI2

Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:12 AM

Does all of this conversation mean there is any chance at least SOME of us can back off and make yet another attempt to be somewhat civil? Would be real nice if that were the case; I'm trying, in my way, and I'd absolutely adore some company.

Just a thought, NOTHING MORE.

1KIKI

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:11 AM

Jongs made a point of flooding the board with posts he never intended to discuss - not for discussion just for disruption and starting flame wars.

What really pissed me off was when SignyM apologized TO HIM >AFTER HE MADE VILE ACCUSATIONS< about her ...

http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=54929&mid=
936771

Jongdick

"That's funny Signy. Feel free to try any time you want. I put up about 50 threads in 3 days. That's 17 per day, which is less than one per hour. But you and I know that's not your real beef. You just hate any opposition to anything you believe. You're the single most intolerant person in the history of this place. You loathe the threads I put up because every title stung you to the bone. In fact, you pretty much hid under your rock the whole time, only occasionally popping your head out to see if the coast was clear.

SignyM

Is that what you really think, Jongsstraw?

Yanno, I have a job. Hubby was REALLY sick the past few weeks, trending into toxic shock. Daughter is brain damaged, and needs more than the average amount of attention. We've had three plumbing problems in one week. AND, I planted my veggie garden (Kind of spur of the moment, but what the hay!) All of this is to say: I have a life, and haven't had all that much time to spend here in the past two months, because when I spend time here I'm probably neglecting something else. I can't POSSIBLY respond to 17 posts in one day. If you had LEFT it at 17 posts, I MIGHT have caught up with it, but responding to all 45 posts??? Are you out of your mind? I can't do it...

Jongdick

I apologize for my words Signy. I can't take them back, but I'd like to. Sorry for your personal troubles. Everything you said had truth in it. I went way over a line that you and I have sort of lived with for a long time. Again, I apologize for it.

Apparently it takes a servile apology to Jongdick after he makes vile statements about you to get into his good graces.

>>> REALLY HKC? <<<

Where was your outrage then?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:24 AM

Vile accusation? Do you remember what HK said to me not too long ago, or am I the only one who remembers? Oh wait, I'm the only one who cares, of course. No outrage on my behalf, only outrage for people who aren't me.

And you know what? Good. Because I don't really need people constantly going after HK and slamming him for me. It's unnecessary. And whatever problems I have with HK is not ANYONE else's problem.

If you think what Jongstraw said to someone else is so bad even after he apologized for it, then ignore him. Don't demand apologies, don't talk to him. Instead of escalating things, calling him "Jongdick". That is just not the way to handle it.

If I can take the higher road after what HK said to me, then so can the rest of you for something like being called "intolerant". I have been called closed minded and intolerant SOOO many times. Been called a coward. Called passive aggressive. Called a stupid kid with no wisdom of my own. Shit, I'm used to it! I even play into what other people think of me now because hell, I might as well!

But do you see me calling for backup when I get insulted? Do you see me going after people to perpetuate insult wars for weeks to months on end that pull in the entire BOARD? I don't have to get people back. I don't have to pepper them with constant insults over a grudge that started years ago. They are not a worthless person because they just offended and insulted me.

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:39 AM

BYTE: Whoa there, Bytemite! "People constantly going after HKC" becauz he stood up for you???
Really???
Not me! I have a life to live! I daresay most people do. Please do not be so melodramatic about your role here... or, anywhere, for that matter.

HKC: Jonggstraw has taken two significant deviations here: (1) behaving like a drunken poster (2) posting like a curmudgeonly but even-handed conservative and (3) posting like an irrational drunkard, again. I too have wondered "Whassup with Jongssie?" Not that I think we'll ever find out, but that doesn't make the question any less true.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:47 AM

HK?! Stood up for me?! Hahahahahaha

Hahaha

That's a funny way to put it. Hilarious in fact. He stood up for me so well that I VOWED NEVER TO TALK TO THE GUY AGAIN.

Suffice to say, there is pretty unequal amounts of outrage that I see on display here, tough luck for the less popular board members who have to go it alone. And there is rarely ever rightful outrage on behalf of someone from the opposite side.

But I suppose that no one knows what I'm talking about. So this is kind of an interesting situation. You think that Jongstraw calling someone intolerant and then APOLOGIZING even rates among the worst things anyone has ever said on this board and so it justifies this kind of back and forth?

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:50 AM

Quote:
HK?! Stood up for me?! Hahahahahaha Hahaha

Okay, then. Well, at least you get an idea where this board rates on my scale of 1-10! Really BYTE, I kinda like you, but I have no time to keep up with the back-and-forth.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:57 AM

Quote:
Really BYTE, I kinda like you, but I have no time to keep up with the back-and-forth.

Well, sure. You have friends who can help you.

Those of us black sheep don't have that kind of luxury.

1KIKI

Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:10 AM

"Do you remember what HK said to me not too long ago, or am I the only one who remembers?"

No, I don't remember. I'm often gone. Aside from that my memory is laughably poor. Do you remember, was I around and posting around that time, or MIA?

"But do you see me calling for backup when I get insulted?"

SignyM didn't 'call for backup' either. I posted this on MY OWN BEHALF to show what I think of his dickness.

BTW - in case no one remembers, let me reiterate once again - I'm not a liberal. I'm not a progressive. I don't claim the moral high ground. I don't even pretend to think about trying to be sweetness and light.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:18 AM

Quote:
No, I don't remember. I'm often gone. Aside from that my memory is laughably poor. Do you remember, was I around and posting around that time, or MIA?

You were there. I dropped SEVERAL F-bombs. But then, considering what I was being accused of, a few F-bombs were kind of warranted.

Things between me and HK had never really been good, we aren't able to see eye to eye. But being accused of lying about a personal experience like that, and being told that I ENABLE that kind of thing was pretty much the worst thing anyone has ever said to me.

I've actually had the PRIVILEGE of hearing that same accusation directed my way THREE TIMES over the course of my time here. I guess I'm just lucky.

The people who have said these things to me I hate with a surprising ferocity. And yet I do not express this by insulting them ALL the TIME. I imagine they don't even know how much I hate them - well, except HK, because I've made it pretty blatant now.

Quote:

SignyM didn't 'call for backup' either. I posted this on MY OWN BEHALF to show what I think of his dickness.

Fair enough, no back up was called. Sig warrants this kind of response because you're her friend. It is clear to me that I do not.

There's a commentary here about division lines that can be made. Point stands.

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:33 AM

BYTE- like I said, I kinda like you. But I have to make choices... time choices, emotional choices... between those to whom I OWE my attention (like, my daughter, who didn't ask to be born and specifically didn't ask to be born brain-damaged), those who offer me real affirmative help, and those that I would LIKE to contact but are just barely out of reach. I'm sorry, hon. I feel like our fingers touch from time to time, when the whirpool of life's events bring us a little closer, but then you get too far out of reach. I admire your ZING!. Please understand that if I could offer friendship or peace, I would, but family, love, and bonds lie elsewhere.

1KIKI

Thursday, May 30, 2013 5:42 AM

"But being accused of lying about a personal experience like that, and being told that I ENABLE that kind of thing was pretty much the worst thing anyone has ever said to me."

AH! NOW I remember. I recall it being a very very strange set of communications. I tried but didn't really 'get' what either of you were posting about. Tho I assumed the two of you knew since there was back-and-forth. (As a complete aside, I've had similar situations happen in the past IRL. People will say things and, while I know the words, the fact that it's a topic makes no sense to me. WHY would someone say THAT? It makes what they say uninterpretable to me.)

"Sig warrants this kind of response because you're her friend. It is clear to me that I do not."

We haven't really had a very long association. Some things happen with time. It's not a slam on you.

The other part is that I really despise Jong. So there were two impulses going on in me in that incident between SignyM and Jong, a push and a pull.

HKC in your case had me mostly baffled. As I posted above, I mostly didn't get it.

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:13 AM

Aw geez. Sorry folks, obviously LOTS to talk about and I will, but before this Byte thing goes any further, I just gotta say:

1.) Byte, thanks for the vote of confidence at the top of the thread. I know that was hard for you to say and it means a lot to me that you would say it.

2.) Byte, you can dig up the entire conversation and you will not find that I accused you of lying about any abuse you experienced. I said you were talking about rape like someone who had no idea what she was talking about. Which is to say, frivolously, glibly, luridly. I asked you to stop doing that. Only afterward did you reveal that you had in actuality been assaulted, but by that time you'd already said your fuck you's to me and you were aggressively misunderstanding every word I wrote, so even though the misunderstanding was particularly grave and hurtful there seemed little point in trying to dissuade you. I am genuinely sorry that this has brought so much grief into your life and that you've decided to hate another person. Particularly, when the hate, from where I'm sitting, seems to be based on simple misunderstanding.

Anyway, sorry, folks, that's all I have time for right now.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 9:50 PM

Um, no.

But I'm not going to argue about it, because I have no interest in an apology. Not the one you just offered - which, I note, holds me entirely to blame for what happened - nor any other.

The point is, I don't insult you all the time, despite having reason to feel an extreme amount of animosity towards you.

Having calmed down a bit, it appears I might have to face the concept that the fights that the left and right get into might be just as painful as being called what I was... And ultimately what matters is that hurt was inflicted, and not the quantity, degree, or type of insult.

So, I suppose I should rescind my example, and apologize to 1kiki and Sig.

(and for further clarity - I do still think of most people here as friends, and that all of YOU could be friends too. I just have no hopes of ever having the friendship I feel returned by anyone)

Since this argument of mine has fallen through, I am unsure what approach can next be taken for this thread, to discourage the back and forth that has been seen and try to mend some of the damage that has resulted in this situation. You probably have better ideas, HK - and people are more likely to listen to you because you aren't a fuming she-bitch rage ball.

KPO

Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:18 PM

Quote:
1.) Byte, thanks for the vote of confidence at the top of the thread. I know that was hard for you to say and it means a lot to me that you would say it.

I was surprised as well, but then I realised Byte was probably trying to stick up for Jongsstraw.

It's not personal. It's just war.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:23 PM

I posted in response to HK because he was trying to make a point about how the behaviour on this board breeds hostility and I agreed with it - much to my DISTASTE, but then, the people we hate aren't always wrong.

I said what I did to you because if someone from the right made a thread demanding that YOU explain your opinions and behaviour and asked what your deal/problem was in the title, you'd feel like it was an attack on you.

If I was just trying to stand up for Jongstraw, I wouldn't have posted a thread a week ago calling him out for what he's been doing. Rather I'm interested in standing up for all of you. None of you deserves what you call each other or how you treat each other.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:33 PM

Byte, none of what you wrote in either thread went un-noticed, and for what it's worth, you and HK have earned a lifetime pass from me. Anything either of you post in the future, regardless of content and tone, will be accepted in good faith.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:42 PM

And I'm still sorry about how I approached that. And... Well maybe all of this. I kinda suck at being an intermediary. I use my personal experiences as examples to try to help me identify with people and hope that by doing so they feel that connection. But I know that it probably gets really tiresome hearing me talk about me, me, me all the time especially because it often accidentally leads to some serious thread hijacking. That's never what I intend to happen, but I get carried away with how I'm feeling sometimes.

And so I should apologize to HK too at least about this.

KPO

Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:43 PM

I'm always happy to explain my opinions and/or behaviour. But then again I don't troll and spam the forum... If I did, I would expect to have to answer for my actions.

Quote:
you'd feel like it was an attack on you.

I'm quite indifferent to people attacking me; I generally find it amusing. However people ascribing false motivations to me is disappointing.

It's not personal. It's just war.

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 31, 2013 1:20 AM

"Whether you realized it or not." I'm guessing by your reaction that's a not.

But, in that case, I suppose I did accuse you unfairly. You're right, I'm also sorry to you as well.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:33 AM

Okay. A few things then.

KPO, you can claim you have no ill will, but if you're really so insensitive that you would start a thread inviting Jongsstraw's enemies to psychoanalyze him and not expect him to take it the wrong way, I can't see your lack of ill will doing much good. If you hang out with, joke along with and generally have a grand old time with Jongsstraw's enemies and you don't expect him to react to you as another enemy, you're kidding yourself.

To me, a person who has no ill will towards another ASKS THAT PERSON what's wrong. And if that person doesn't want to tell him, then he drops it. He doesn't start discussing the other person with a bunch of strangers in front of him. So, your lack of ill will seems to include a lack of awareness of the obvious consequences of your actions. From where I sit, ill will would be an improvement.

And Magons. Hi. I know well that this is not a "left attack right board." I know the right has been extremely venomous this whole time. I would even go so far as to venture that they may even be more venomous than the left, when it's all said and done. ;)

What I'm objecting to is embodied in KPO's thread "What's the deal with Jongstraw?" Nobody on the right is starting threads wondering why, say, Chrisisall got all nasty all of a sudden. They don't pretend to be all nice as pie when the left turns up the vitriol. But KPO did. And then folks started to earnestly speculate on Jongsstraw's mental state. I found it a little disgusting. An escalation of the problem disguised as friendly concern.

Oh, and no, KPO, my li'l sketch of why I would imagine ANYONE might turn nasty does not belong in your thread. To my mind, nothing belongs in that thread. I think that thread was a terrible idea.

Mal4, I got no beef with you. Shine on.

Signy, 1k: you guys are fine. You guys don't play particularly nice and you don't expect anyone to treat you nicely in return. I do think constantly demeaning other people with objectifying nicknames serves only to dehumanize the person you're talking to and creates a toxic environment. Nothing good comes of it and it makes you look like bullies, regardless of how much the other guy "deserves" it. Escalation is innevitable. But I've sung this song before. I'm sure you're tired of hearing it.

And oh, gosh, 1k, I'm not outraged at anyone for being nasty. Jongsstraw made his bed and he's gotta lie in it. The "What's the deal with Jongstraw?" thread struck me as so over-the-top condescending and "concerned" for poor, misguided, li'l Jongs that I had to say something.

And finally, to clarify, Byte: I wasn't apologizing to you in my last post. I don't make half-assed, backhanded apologies. Now that I'm one of the three most evil people in your cosmos, I don't think there's any room for, nor any call for an apology. I was expressing my sorrow that you are wasting so much of your energy hating me for something I simply didn't. Ever. Do.

You are absolutely free to believe whatever you please. You just made a big stink about it here in this thread, speaking of the horrible accusation I made against you as if it were a fact and. It ain't. It just ain't a fact.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

KPO

Friday, May 31, 2013 12:00 PM

Quote:
if you're really so insensitive that you would start a thread inviting Jongsstraw's enemies to psychoanalyze him

I asked 'What's the deal with Jongsstraw?', and speculated that there was some kind of sockpuppet behaviour going on. 'Inviting Jongsstraw's enemies...' -- you're over-dramatising.

Quote:
If you hang out with, joke along with and generally have a grand old time with Jongsstraw's enemies

'If' being the operative word here, because I've never done that. I started the thread out of curiosity about Jongsstraw and his erratic behaviour. Insensitive? Maybe. But I don't usually deal sensitively with trolls.

Quote:
Nobody on the right is starting threads wondering why, say, Chrisisall got all nasty all of a sudden.

But if he did, they might. Why can't you see that?

Quote:
And then folks started to earnestly speculate on Jongsstraw's mental state. I found it a little disgusting.

If Jongs doesn't want his issues speculated on, he shouldn't spread them all over our board. If there are no serious issues, there's no real harm done.

Quote:
Oh, and no, KPO, my li'l sketch of why I would imagine ANYONE might turn nasty does not belong in your thread.

It wasn't a reference to 'anybody' it was specific commentary on Jongs' behaviour. Go back and read what you wrote.

It's not personal. It's just war.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 31, 2013 1:48 PM

One thing: Chrisisall did get extremely vituperative for a little while just this last year. And they didn't make such a thread.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Friday, May 31, 2013 3:20 PM

Quote:
One thing: Chrisisall did get extremely vituperative for a little while just this last year. And they didn't make such a thread.

CHRIS didn't spam the board with zillions of threads he had no intention of discussing, after basically saying that if the threads don't get answered then the lefties here are hypocrites. I know, because I DID answer many of his threads, and where was Jongsstraw?? Nowhere, that's where.

By anyone's definition, HKC, that's trolling and an abuse of the board. That's beyond vituperative. And if it had gone on much longer, I would have emailed Haken- I had the email in my drafts folder, waiting and ready to go. Jongsstraw GOT THE ATTENTION HE WANTED and was so clearly asking for.

Now, personally, it seems to me that at least two of the righties here- rappy and lil jongsie- are here JUST to get attention. It's unconscious trolling, as far as I can tell. My personal suggestion is to deny them the attention and turmoil they so clearly crave, and simply put them in "time out". But it would take the cooperation of pretty much everyone here to make that effective, so I've taken to ignoring most of their posts most of the time.

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 31, 2013 4:39 PM

Quote:
You are absolutely free to believe whatever you please. You just made a big stink about it here in this thread, speaking of the horrible accusation I made against you as if it were a fact and. It ain't. It just ain't a fact.

I can not BELIEVE, even now, that you're denying what you did, that you won't even admit that you CONTINUED making insinuations WELL after I dropped my F-bombs and I talked about my own experiences. I would take this to PM if I thought it would change anything. But it won't.

I'll admit that I said some things to you that weren't justified. Comparing my treatment to the way people who have been attacked are often silenced, disbelieved, and ridiculed for example, and my statements that kind of treatment can be just as bad as the original attack. And perhaps even the F-bombs, even though NO that WASN'T me promoting violence against you and it's still insulting you even said that.

Perhaps this is the reason it's as hard for you to apologize to me as me apologizing to you or saying words of support to you. I've known for a while just how broken things are, and so I avoided you and refused to talk to you.

That said, maybe before you go attacking KPO, you oughta look in a mirror.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, May 31, 2013 5:36 PM

Byte, I seem to have been able to be a voice of reason to you in the past, I hope this post is taken that way too. First, I must repeat something I've told you before, though I don't think it gets through.

Everything we experience goes through a filter, and your filter has a pretty big "Byte is unlikeable" slant. You say you are friends to others but they aren't your friends back. I consider myself your friend, though I don't know if you'll accept it. My friendship does not gel with what you believe to be reality. You think you can't be liked, therefore me calling myself your friend must some other motive. Right? And perhaps you even take it to the next step that if I'm trying to be your friend, I must just not know you, so you'll show me. And then Bytemonster comes out!

Back to your filter: it has the unfortunate effect that just about any statement made on this board about you may seem like an attack. You just can't imagine that anyone would do anything but attack you. That isn't real, hon. You are in essence attacking yourself, and missing out on the large amount of good will there is toward you. Really, there is. I see tons of both respect and caring for you.

Regarding HKC, I see that your hackles are up and believe me I understand what happens when someone touches that particular nerve. But I was there for that thread, and I do not believe he had the intention of saying what you heard. I say this not to protect him (he doesn't need me for that) but in hopes that you will find a way to let this go. This grudge only makes your filter stronger and puts you deeper in that hole you're in.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, May 31, 2013 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
One thing: Chrisisall did get extremely vituperative for a little while just this last year. And they didn't make such a thread.
CHRIS didn't spam the board with zillions of threads he had no intention of discussing, after basically saying that if the threads don't get answered then the lefties here are hypocrites. I know, because I DID answer many of his threads, and where was Jongsstraw?? Nowhere, that's where.

By anyone's definition, HKC, that's trolling and an abuse of the board. That's beyond vituperative. And if it had gone on much longer, I would have emailed Haken- I had the email in my drafts folder, waiting and ready to go. Jongsstraw GOT THE ATTENTION HE WANTED and was so clearly asking for.

Now, personally, it seems to me that at least two of the righties here- rappy and lil jongsie- are here JUST to get attention. It's unconscious trolling, as far as I can tell. My personal suggestion is to deny them the attention and turmoil they so clearly crave, and simply put them in "time out". But it would take the cooperation of pretty much everyone here to make that effective, so I've taken to ignoring most of their posts most of the time.

What a load of crap! Just like everyone else here, I respond to those I want to, when I want to. If you're not getting a response...well that's just too damn bad. Grow up.

"Y'know, when I address a post of mine to Jongsstraw, he almost always replies and when he does, he does so with all the grace and civility I could hope for." - HKCavalier 5/29/13

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 31, 2013 5:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Perhaps this is the reason it's as hard for you to apologize to me as me apologizing to you or saying words of support to you. I've known for a while just how broken things are, and so I avoided you and refused to talk to you.

Byte. It isn't hard for me to apologize to you. I've done it plenty of times over the years here. I'm simply not apologizing for this extraordinary distortion of yours. And as far as you apologizing to me, for what it's worth, I don't feel any need or desire for you to do so. You haven't wronged me, you have only been wrong about me.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 31, 2013 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Oh, and no, KPO, my li'l sketch of why I would imagine ANYONE might turn nasty does not belong in your thread.

It wasn't a reference to 'anybody' it was specific commentary on Jongs' behaviour. Go back and read what you wrote.

And this: KPO, you're missing my point by a mile. I wasn't sketching Jongs' behavior, I was imagining myself in his position. I was imagining that it might piss me off to be condescended to so unctuously. Anyone in that position might get pissed off. There's a big difference between what I did (empathizing) and what you're talking about.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NIKI2

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:04 PM

What a fascinating thread...sadly so, unfortunately, in my opinion. Byte, you are filled with so much hate, and you take things so personally, and judge people so determinedly, it amazes me.

Seriously, if anyone here had any right to bitch and moan about being "abused", who do you think it would be? Who has had NUMEROUS threads put up about them BY NAME, and had their mental state not just questioned, but QUITE blatantly challenged? Who has come in for the absolutely VILEST death wishes, rape wishes and other such things of anyone on this board?? I have never, ever, seen you attacked in anything like as serious a fashion as I have been, but somehow you've managed to amass a lot of "ferocious hate" and "enemies" and so forth; again, I sincerely wish you didn't take this place so to heart. I don't "hate" anyone here; the trick is to "hate" what someone says or does, not the person; there is good and bad in every single person here.

We have misunderstandings; sometime they lead to angry exchanges, but I've pointed out, quite clearly recently, numerous time when you've assumed things which simply weren't true. Given that, I keep wishing it might occur to you that something you perceive/remember might not be what the person intended, or even what they wrote, but how you perceived it at the time, and that perception got cemented into "memory". I've never seen Cav get truly nasty to anyone, so I think it's just possible that what you internalized might have been based on some misunderstandings which never got clarified. My attempts to clarify misunderstandings you've had with/about me has apparently no impact on you reading something, deciding not only what it is (even despite clarification that it wasn't), but what the person writing it was THINKING, and then labeling them "enemy" or "friend" or whatever, and obviously, carrying that forward.

I've never seen anyone here "ask" for "backup". I sometimes see those on the right AND left offering "backup" to those they agree with, but I don't see any one side as more supportive of those they agree with than the other. I don't see either side "bullying" (or attempting to bully) anyone more than any other. I tend to see more nastiness from the right, but that may have to do with the frequency of postings by some individuals, and the wording they employ; I certainly see it from the left as well.

I have agreed and disagreed with virtually everyone on this forum at one time or another, even those whose wording certainly indicates they despise me pretty viscerally. I wish you could stop keeping track quite so much and just take what people write as their response to something specific, not keep a list of "friends" and "enemies".

I wish we all could, but obviously things have gotten more vituperative than usual of late, and it's contributing to "sides" even more than it normally does. It's a shame; I'm hoping it passes, as this place goes through phases. But judging people on something we perceive, holding grudges, "hating" people "ferociously" and making no effort to work out what might be misunderstandings, doesn't help, it only makes things worse.

Just my two cents' worth. I tried to track this thread, but I've been unable to understand some of the back and forth, it just seems to me like everyone's trying to blame someone else and/or defend themselves. And that seems like a waste of time and energy. Maybe some of this stuff could be worked out in PM or e-mail or something, it's just gotten pretty weird.

Eh, whatever. JMHO.

ETA: Oops, I was writing/editing this, and I see the thread has moved on (I started writing it in reply to Byte's last post). I see I'm kind of duplicating Mal4. What she said is some of what I'

SIGNYM

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:13 PM

Quote:
What a load of crap! Just like everyone else here, I respond to those I want to, when I want to. If you're not getting a response...well that's just too damn bad. Grow up.-Jongsstraw

That wasn't my point, which you evidently failed to grasp. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

Quote:
Who has had NUMEROUS threads put up about them BY NAME, and had their mental state not just questioned, but QUITE blatantly challenged? Who has come in for the absolutely VILEST death wishes, rape wishes and other such things of anyone on this board??-NIKI

Indeed. And pointing out that the question about Jongsstraw was such a horrible violation of net ethics, while being silent about the treatment you've received, is a gasp-worthy example of one-sidedness. HKC: Ahem!

Quite frankly, what I see are a bunch of people posting ME! ME! ME! ME!.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
What a load of crap! Just like everyone else here, I respond to those I want to, when I want to. If you're not getting a response...well that's just too damn bad. Grow up.-Jongsstraw
That wasn't my point, which you evidently failed to grasp. Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

It's still all a load of crap, and the only point you have is the one at the end of your tail.

"Y'know, when I address a post of mine to Jongsstraw, he almost always replies and when he does, he does so with all the grace and civility I could hope for." - HKCavalier 5/29/13

SIGNYM

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:20 PM

Quote:
It's still all a load of crap, and the only point you have is the one at the end of your tail.

Wow, Jongsstraw. What an intelligent and on-point rebuttal! I really like that response... I forget who postd it, so with apologies to the original poster for lack of attribution:

GRASP!

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, May 31, 2013 6:28 PM

Please don't start crying and telling sad stories about your hapless life again. I'm fresh out of apologies.

"Y'know, when I address a post of mine to Jongsstraw, he almost always replies and when he does, he does so with all the grace and civility I could hope for." - HKCavalier 5/29/13

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 31, 2013 7:17 PM

Quote:
I wish we all could, but obviously things have gotten more vituperative than usual of late, and it's contributing to "sides" even more than it normally does. It's a shame; I'm hoping it passes, as this place goes through phases. But judging people on something we perceive, holding grudges, "hating" people "ferociously" and making no effort to work out what might be misunderstandings, doesn't help, it only makes things worse.

IT WASN'T A MISUNDERSTANDING. That HK is claiming that's all it was now is just... INFURIATING.

Isn't it so interesting that when I get insulted about something, I'm just imagining it, or it was my FAULT for misunderstanding. I wonder if that would fly for any single other person on this board.

Mal4Prez, even you too? Fine then. Not even the point of the thread.

Continue discussing state of the board, that is what is important. Consider that maybe hating AURAPTOR and Jongstraw and Wulf also create a worsening situation. AND JONG AND AURAPTOR AND WULF SHOULD CONSIDER THE SAME. I will go back to saying nothing about HK - I know I can do that much.

SIGNYM

Friday, May 31, 2013 7:37 PM

Rappy and Jongsstraw have shown their moral worth, and quite frankly they're not worth shit. AFA what's going on between you and HKC, I haven't a clue. So when you tally up the board as YOU see it leave my view on this issue blank, because I have none.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 31, 2013 8:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
IT WASN'T A MISUNDERSTANDING. That HK is claiming that's all it was now is just... INFURIATING.

That's all I've ever claimed it to be. That's all it's ever been. You never ONCE inquired if I *meant* any of the things you accuse me of saying to you. Not once. You just *knew* what I was saying and what I was intending as you continue to do now. So, inspite of your having condemned me out of hand, I'm supposed to bow before whatever accusation you hurl at me and beg your forgiveness? Who died and made you Queen of the Internet?

Quote:
Isn't it so interesting that when I get insulted about something, I'm just imagining it, or it was my FAULT for misunderstanding. I wonder if that would fly for any single other person on this board.

Not terribly interesting actually. You've felt insulted, geez, hundreds of times, easily. And the reaction has varied accordingly. And plenty of folks have felt insulted and demanded an explanation, got one, and either accepted that there was a misunderstanding, or went on feeling insulted. It's happened to me more than once. It happens to all of us.

Don't trump this up into another conspiracy. Not a single, solitary soul on this board has it in for you, Byte.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NIKI2

Friday, May 31, 2013 8:15 PM

Byte, have you ever noticed how often you are insulted? Have you ever contrasted that with how often numerous other people here say they're insulted? It might be something to think about. I can only vaguely remember a couple of times being insulted in all the time I've been here, and I can't now recall what the specific things were that insulted me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd hazard a guess that not many people get insulted very often here...we just don't take it that seriously.

"Consider that maybe hating AURAPTOR and Jongstraw and Wulf also create a worsening situation." I've said it before, I'll keep saying it, but you seem incapable of hearing it: I DON'T HATE ANY OF THEM! I even RESPECT Rap when it comes to virtually all subjects outside of politics, and I quite highly respected Jong in a conversation we had some time ago. They are PEOPLE; I don't hate 99.9999% of the people on earth. The "hate" thing is something YOU think, and, from the hatefulness expressed and the "hate" they keep trying to ascribe to all "libruls", something in their minds too.

Now, considering that is true for me, can you even conceive of the possibility that there are others here, too, who don't "HATE" any of them? We disagree; we snark; we mock; we disrespect; I don't take it particularly personally and I KNOW there are others here who don't. So, when it comes to the sum total of people posting on this forum: You're wrong. Does that tell you ANYTHING???

PERCEPTION, Byte; yes, you have a problem with how you perceive things sometimes. It's a fact. I'm willing to lay odds that if you and Cav were to call back up whatever exchange it is that has you so infuriated, to sit down just the two of you and talk about it, you MIGHT well find that he didn't do anything as horrible as what you remember. Or not, I can't say, I don't recall the exchange; what I AM saying is yes, you get insulted comparatively a LOT, and I know from personal experience that you've been insulted by things I've written which were in no way intended to insult you...WE'VE EVEN WORKED SOME OF THEM OUT.

There is, by the way, NO FAULT in misunderstanding; it happens a million times a day to people. If it can be worked out, if the misunderstanding can be cleared up, that's wonderful. If not, bad feelings can go on for far longer than either person would like. That's why I work so hard at trying to sort things out with people. A misunderstanding can cause bad feelings--even, in just such a case as this, "HATRED"--which doesn't have to exist. That's a very sad thing.

Everything doesn't have to make someone right or wrote, bad or good...it's not that simple with humans. It's not your "fault" if you misunderstood something, it can be how it was written, what the person said just before that, or ...Omigawd, what am I doing. I just realized...I've got to get outta here, or I'll be trapped forever...!!!

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 31, 2013 9:26 PM

Posting the thread here so that discussion can continue about the other MORE IMPORTANT subject. People can decide what they think of the HK vs. Me thing on their own, but I'd prefer not to hear the conclusions, and I'm sure HK feels the same way. http://blu.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=53888

I would however appreciate it if people would stop accusing me of making shit up.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, May 31, 2013 11:44 PM

A very interesting thread.

Yes, I think HK was very rude to you Byte, but you also reacted very strongly. I felt like a button had been pushed with you. I am guessing that it was not so much the topic, but the way you were dismissed as not having a right to talk about something that set you off.

I notice that I have a very strong reaction to be dismissed myself, much worse than being disagreed with, and that goes back to how I was treated when I was young.

I'm guessing that all strong reactions, including Jongs, including HK's condemnation of the other thread, relate back to our own painful experiences.

NIKI2

Saturday, June 1, 2013 1:26 PM

I will read the thread (on my way out to run the dogs) and comment, if at all, privately. Just two things:

Nobody here, that I'm aware of, has EVER accused you of making things up. That's what you PERCEIVE people as saying; what I'm saying is that sometimes you PERCEIVE things differently than they are, and that's a prime example. Every human being walking this earth perceives things through their own "filter"--many have mentioned this before. We do not perceive everything accurately, and if we don't seek clarification when we MISUNDERSTAND something, it gets set in cement and it's what we BELIEVE. Even when we try to clarify things, we ALL still perceive them through a filter.

Whether Cav wants to hear what people think should be, in my opinion, up to Cav. I believe it's wrong to speak for what others want/think. JMHO.

KPO

Sunday, June 2, 2013 12:15 AM

Quote:
Posting the thread here so that discussion can continue about the other MORE IMPORTANT subject. People can decide what they think of the HK vs. Me thing on their own, but I'd prefer not to hear the conclusions, and I'm sure HK feels the same way. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=53888

I would however appreciate it if people would stop accusing me of making shit up.

Wow, that was a sad thread. For several reasons. I don't think you were reacting to nothing there Byte, HK to me was clearly out of line - on some specifics as well as in his general tone. Having said that, hearing about his history, one can understand it. But most people in your position would have felt 'talked down to' and that they were being told to 'shut up'.

A general observation about HK:

1. He is liked and respected on this board, and for good reason. By me included.

2. He is quite loose with his impassioned moral judgement.

3. I don't know if he has a reverse gear. If he does, I don't think he uses it enough.

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:36 AM

"What a load of crap! Just like everyone else here, I respond to those I want to, when I want to. If you're not getting a response...well that's just too damn bad. Grow up."

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:15:33 AM --- May 13, 2013 1:13:52 PM period of intensive posting

Monday, May 13, 2013 3:52:02 PM --- single post

Monday, May 13, 2013 7:11:52 PM --- single post

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:25:33 AM --- Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:19:51 AM period of intensive posting

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:48:13 AM --- single post

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:02:23 PM --- Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:23:04 PM period of intensive posting

Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:11:24 PM --- single post

Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:49:54 AM --- Wednesday, May 15, 2013 5:32:20 AM period of intensive posting

Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:15:02 AM --- Wednesday, May 15, 2013 12:01:31 PM period of intensive posting

Friday, May 17, 2013 4:19:40 PM --- Friday, May 17, 2013 4:50:24 PM period of intensive posting

Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:01:55 AM --- single post

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:15:33 AM

Obamacare: Taxpayers Must Report Personal Health ID Info to IRS

replied to self

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:19 AM

Obama: $1 trillion in Obamacare spending is historic 'tax cut'

relied to signym with snark, then bailed

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:23:55 AM

Susan Rice Honored With 'Great American' Award Night Before Benghazi Hearing

replied to self

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:27:22 AM

Boston Bombers’ Mosque Recommended Men Beat Their Wives

replied to lil' rappy, then bailed

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:33:28 AM

Obama Nominates Fox to Guard Chicken Coop

replied to signym, then bailed

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:37:05 AM

Dem Congresswoman: Obamacare Will Improve Marriages

Monday, May 13, 2013 8:43:03 AM

9.5 Million People Have Left the Workforce Under Obama

replied to self - twice!

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:06:09 AM

'Mounting evidence' Boston bombers were behind gruesome 2011 murders

replied to rouka with reiteration of point, then bailed from active discussion of multiple posters

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:13:01 AM

Navy Seal Team VI Families To Reveal Government’s Culpability In Death Of Their Sons In Fatal Helicopter Crash In Afghanistan

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:33:57 AM

10 crazy things the IRS asked Tea Party groups

replied to self twice, then bailed whne actual discussion between posters ensued

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:38:01 AM

Top Obama Official’s Brother Is President Of CBS News, May Drop Reporter Over Benghazi Coverage

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:42:46 AM

Report: Energy Dept. Spent $11 Million Per Green Job

replied to self twice, lil' rappy once

Monday, May 13, 2013 9:48:23 AM

Hip-Hop Artist Lauryn Hill Blames Slavery for Tax Evasion

replied to lil'rappy, then bailed

Monday, May 13, 2013 10:09:15 AM

Principal suspends teen for Instagramming her mug shot

Monday, May 13, 2013 10:14:16 AM

Harford County Public Schools Employee Stephanie Mikles Indicted On Deviant Sex Charges

replied to kiki withn offensive snark, then bailed

Monday, May 13, 2013 10:23:44 AM

Dr. Gosnell found guilty on three counts of first-degree murder

replied to lil' rappy, bailed from further active discussion

Monday, May 13, 2013 10:33:15 AM

Walters announces her retirement on 'The View'

Monday, May 13, 2013 10:49:56 AM

Detroit - emergency manager says city "clearly-insolvent"

replied to self

Monday, May 13, 2013 11:02:00 AM

U.N. says eating insects will fight obesity

Monday, May 13, 2013 12:01:15 PM

Economy's 'Soft Patch' Is Just More Of The Same

Monday, May 13, 2013 12:23:49 PM

NY Times Maureen Dowd throws Hillary and DC Dems under the bus

Monday, May 13, 2013 12:54:51 PM

9.5 Million People Have Lef

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:50 PM

Folks may find the analogy to be OMG OVER-THE-TOP RIDONKULOUS but seems to me we've got a RWED model of the psychological origins of terrorism. In that light, Jongs' posting spree might be best understood as blowback. Jongs' and the folks on the right in general are considered to be deserving of whatever they get (rhetorically speaking, of course) because they're fundamentally bad people. Not unlike the prevailing attitude of our country toward the Muslim world. And just as we have obnoxious Americans claiming the moral high ground simply because our actions in the Middle East are "not as bad as the terrorists," we have folks here defending very obnoxious behavior because "Jongs is worse!"

There have been considerably fewer right leaning voices on this board than left for quite some time now. It's down to about 3, with a rotating forth position that's mostly vacant. With so few of them, their inferior weaponry (in this case, logic and evidence) becomes quite obvious to everyone here. So, in thread after thread, the left dominate with their Shock & Awe humiliation, over and over and over again. (Please note: I'm not saying that the righties on this board are sweet as pie, only that they are continually outgunned.) Jongsstraw and AURaptor are generally considered to be jokes by the left. And yet the lefties gleefully (rhetorically) carpet bomb them every chance they get. Some lefties never miss an opportunity to make the right feel small. Of course, you guys think it's all their own fault for not bringing sufficient logic and reason, but the fact remains that as people you're humiliating (or seeking to humiliate) them in a forever war of domination. The right are in a no-win situation on the board, and, at the present moment, a no-win situation in national politics.

So then what happens? Jongs becomes a social suicide bomber. And KPO starts a thread that amounts to "Why do they hate us?"

KPO, be assured, I will be thinking about your observation that I am too "loose" with my "impassioned moral judgment." My own (very self serving, to be sure) observation says I only get so upset rarely. But in the last year or more, my desire to post on the board has greatly decreased, so it tends to take me getting more upset to even posts, so you may have a very different perception of my presence here. I'll think about it and thank you for the feedback.

Sometimes I think I see deeply into a situation and the implications disturb me tremendously. So, I make my case, say my piece. Because to me, political realities always find their origins in individual psychology and conduct. "An eye for an eye" is an ultimately self-annihilating creed, whether it's folks trading insults on an internet forum, or folks trading gunfire in a war zone. The difference between Signy's mercilessness toward AURaptor and the mercilessness of our occupation of the Middle East seems to be a matter of degree rather than kind--a very huge degree, to be sure, but the two exist on a continuum. If we look deeply enough, the one may shed light on the other.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the board is only going to become more civil again if we ALL look inward and find it in our natures to be more kind and more inclusive, not more righteous and superior.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:59 PM

Just want to briefly reply - I'm not sure why SignyM gets tagged with this, since it's moi.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:06 PM

Quote:
Jongs' and the folks on the right in general are considered to be deserving of whatever they get (rhetorically speaking, of course) because they're fundamentally bad people

Jongss and the people on the right deserve whatever they get because they started it. That might be a very kindergartenish way of looking at things, but the right wing started cranking up the crazy during Bill Clinton's Presidency, when the GOP courted the rightwing religious and tried to gin up "scandal" after "scandal" over all kinds of irrelvent stuff: Vince Foster, filegate, Monicagate, pardongate. Did you know that the GOP spent five times more money investigating Bill Clinton's cigar habits than they did investigating 9-11?

So, how to respond? I've been the "reasonable talk" route with them and it doesn't work. And they wallow in controversy; it makes them feel like martyrs to the cause. For me, the best response is to ignore them. If other choose different routes-- oh well. Not effective in my view, but being nice and being reasonable does not make things better. But "they" could stop thsi in a heartbeat, if they so chose, by doing a fe simple things:

READING what other people post, instead of responding to some fantasy that Limbauhj, Beck, or whomever have planted in their heads

RESPONDING TO the actual posted thread with comments that are directly on-point.

This is a place for conversation, not to grab a megaphone and pass on the latest screed. If you are not able to CONVERSE... which includes listening... then you have no business being here. IMHO.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:06 PM

I'd say it's the both of yous.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:13 PM

Hey Signy,

How is "because they started it" different from "because they're bad people?" After all, who would start such an unjust and malicious campaign but bad people? You judge them as people and hide behind correlation as if it's causality. The right, no doubt, would call their attack on Bill Clinton retaliation for something or other as well. Revenge is fundamentally a distortion of causality. It's bogus, no matter who gets into it.

You say ignoring them is the best policy. And I'd say that corresponds on the geopolitical stage with healthy isolationism. Let the right police themselves. They certainly don't pose an imminent threat to you or me, no? :)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:19 PM

HKC, I've already asked for a specifc explanation of your (plural) issues. On the off chnace that it got buried in the multiple posts, I'll ask for it again, but this is the last time. Outrage, no matter how deeply felt, is not an explanation. Tell me what your moral, legal, logical or experiential assumptions are behind your outrage. But it's RAPE! is not an explanation, because I will just counter with But it's GENOCIDE!. So there you have it. I'll wait for your reply, but may not be able to respond until next weekend.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:22 PM

Hey Signy,

Certainly didn't mean to dodge any question of yours. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:24 PM

They DO pose a threat to you and me, HKC, just like the brownshirt supporters posed a threat to all defectives, socialists, gypsies, and Jews. This is simply not the forum to address those real-life threats. Ignoring them is the best response IMHO because it is the most effective response for this process. Other arenas deserve other responses.

Also, RE: My question. Oh dear, there really IS a lack of communicatin isn't there?? This will take more of an explanation than I have time for. Yanno, I'm gonna HAVE to get off this PC, my family is really pissed at me and feeling very neglected.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
They DO pose a threat to you and me, HKC, just like the brownshirt supporters posed a threat to all defectives, socialists, gypsies, and Jews.

How is that argument different from Byte's "We're all to blame for torture because we pay taxes?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, I'm gonna HAVE to get off this PC, my family is really pissed at me and feeling very neglected.

In the words of the immortal Dubya: "Put food on your family!" This conversation can wait. :)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:41 PM

(Replying to posts a ways up about Jongs and Rappy etc)

HKC,

It's been explained several times, so I'm not sure what's the use, but I'll try again anyway...

The issue is not that they are bad people. It is not about they disagree with anyone (really this has been explained 1000 1000 times!) The issue is that they are incapable and even dead set against reasonable conversation. You've got the terrorism analogy completely backward. The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention.

We have spent years trying to keep things on the tracks, tried to talk to them again and again, but the RWAs won't accept that. You've been long enough. You've seen all the efforts that have been made to converse with them. It fails every time. The current state of things is due to their determination to pull this place down. They drove off reasonable posters and pulled down the discourse of every who stayed.

They have been "carpet bombed" with mockery because that is all they will accept. That is all that can done with them. You don't agree? Please, try to find ONE RWED thread where Rappy or Jongs had any kind of rational exchange of more than two or three posts in length. Go on, look. Proof has been provided about Jongs lack of interest in discussing his own threads. Can you find any thing to counter that?

Jongsie's temper tantrum was not a retaliation, it was a continuation of his effort to stop any reasonable conversation from happening here. The sad thing, he has succeeded.

The only thing the actual thinking people can do to change this is to completely, 100%, always ignore the trolls. We did it once and it worked. Doesn't seem like it'll happen again though. They've taken over. :(

BYTEMITE

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:44 PM

I talk about paying taxes as a basis of why finger pointing doesn't do anyone any good because we're kinda all the same and also all responsible for today's social problems.

But considering someone a personal threat to yourself and your livelyhood just because they talk on the internet, go to pro-gun rallies, and vote for right wing candidates... This board is all just talking, as far as I'm concerned. The threats are the people who feed the propaganda machine and stir things up and set the nation against itself as a smokescreen for doing whatever they want to do.

Rappy, Jongstraw, and Wulf are not a threat to us or anyone. They've never attacked any abortion clinics, or tortured anyone, or wiretapped any of us, even though they're against abortion and support waterboarding and the Patriot Act. Like most of the country, they are content to let the big issues be decided by someone other than themselves.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'd say it's the both of yous.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

I lit the hatch then walked away, I think. Haven't been home to keep up with what's going on, and at this point, will never catch up ... just gotta walk away from this one.

Well, except maybe to briefly restate something I've stated a few time already in the past - reason, patience, facts don't work with them. I've seen it consistently fail all these years though it's been tried from day 1. And there is considerable evidence that pursuing that course with them makes things worse by making them more entrenched. Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. There are two other courses that haven't been tried with nearly the fervor as reasoned debate: social isolation and social rejection.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:16 PM

Mal4,

We've reached a truly fascinating impasse. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you think Jongs' and AURaptor are bad people? How in the world is

Quote:
The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention.

and

Quote:
The current state of things is due to their determination to pull this place down. They drove off reasonable posters and pulled down the discourse of every who stayed.

and

Quote:
Jongsie's temper tantrum was not a retaliation, it was a continuation of his effort to stop any reasonable conversation from happening here.

NOT the same as saying they're bad, malicious, irrational people???

AND they may very well be bad, malicious, irrational people. If it quacks like a duck, etc. ALL THE MORE REASON not to talk to them. Yes. Ignore them. Yes. Great idea. Best idea. I'm all for it.

At this point the argument generally devolves into "But I like watching the monkey dance" or some other lame, pseudo-sadistic nya-nya-nya.

I don't disagree with your assessment of Jongs' or Raptor's contribution to the board. How come no one understands that? It's simple: I'm against demeaning people. I'm against dehumanizing people with ugly names. It makes YOU a bully. A bully who only bullies bad people who "deserve it" is still a bully.

The ugliness stops when people refuse to participate in the ugliness. It at least stops for that individual. But when a critical mass of people opt out of the childishness it does have an effect. As you noted, it's worked in the past. Why, after all these years, are we still talking about this? (I know, lame attempt to paraphrase Mal, sorry--I'm a fan.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

KPO

Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:03 PM

Quote:
Folks may find the analogy to be OMG OVER-THE-TOP RIDONKULOUS but seems to me we've got a RWED model of the psychological origins of terrorism.

I actually don't think Jongs' behaviour was that bad. He was being a nuisance more than anything. The thread I started was pretty personal and combative towards him, and tbh I wouldn't say confidently myself that it was justified. But I'm glad his spamming behaviour seems to have abated, and I'm ready to make peace with him.

I'm actually with you on the amount of nastiness that gets directed at the conservatives here, and have spoken out against it myself in the past, if you can believe that. I probably would've backed you up in this thread if, well, I wasn't the subject of it. My ideal solution would be some system of tallying up insults and nastiness and then giving posters a nastiness rating, of sorts. I think people might modify their behaviour if it said next to their name how much they had insulted other posters. But unless such a bit of software is already out there ready-made, it's probably not feasible for RWED.

Quote:
Sometimes I think I see deeply into a situation and the implications disturb me tremendously. So, I make my case, say my piece.

I would say to remember that it's the good guys who can sometimes do much more damage than the bad guys. Someone will read your posts HK, and respect your clear, moral voice. But then that same person will be stunned when you turn your moral judgement very severely on them... The bottom line is that you have to be 100% sure with your insights. Give people the benefit of the doubt if you're not sure - especially good people.

Quote:
My own (very self serving, to be sure) observation says I only get so upset rarely.

Well sometimes your eloquent rants are exactly what is needed. But I get the impression that they're not always spontaneous - that they've been bubbling up inside you for a while, and when you let them loose the person you direct them at is not as guilty as the person(s) who inspired the original indignation... E.g. indulging in rape fantasies - I'm sure you didn't pull that out of the air, but it definitely does NOT apply to Byte. Sometimes, because you're passionate, I think you jump the gun.

It's not personal. It's just war.

NIKI2

Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:16 PM

Quote:
The pent up frustration comes from those of us who've seen our attempts at rational discussion derailed again and again by RWAs who want nothing but to make themselves the center of attention. We have spent years trying to keep things on the tracks, tried to talk to them again and again, but the RWAs won't accept that.

Quote:
reason, patience, facts don't work with them. I've seen it consistently fail all these years though it's been tried from day 1. And there is considerable evidence that pursuing that course with them makes things worse by making them more entrenched. Insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. There are two other courses that haven't been tried with nearly the fervor as reasoned debate: social isolation and social rejection.

Amen...except I would say forms of "social rejection" HAVE been tried, that's part of the mockery thing, but they've only been tried by a few.

As far as

Quote:
The ugliness stops when people refuse to participate in the ugliness. It at least stops for that individual. But when a critical mass of people opt out of the childishness it does have an effect. As you noted, it's worked in the past.

Gawd, I WISH! I've learned to ignore a few of the worst, but the problem is, those I still read are so prolific, and Jongs/Geez post so MUCH bullshit, there's little room for anything else. I'm afraid I refuse to call them "bad", as I don't believe in "bad" people, only people who do bad things. But I certainly agree with "malicious" and "irrational". I just gave up pleading for civility and joined the throng, which I'm trying to do less lately. Problem is, there are few people posting EXCEPT the worst, and everyone else responds to them and their threads, rather than engaging in anything else. I wish it were possible for people not to be triggered by their nastiness, to just let it roll off our backs and discuss AROUND them, but that doesn't seem possible...

Quote:
I'm actually with you on the amount of nastiness that gets directed at the conservatives here

I find that really curious, considering the VAST amount of nastiness I read directed at liberals, and even moderates, here. It's probably not worth it, but perhaps I should keep track, as you suggested, and see if I'm misperceiving things...

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:46 PM

Someone could start an insult thread, but I think you might miss some of the more cunning ploys of some posters, but it could be a start.

I don't like the insults and the dehumanising that goes on. He/She started it is no excuse. Everyone is responsible for their own behaviour. You don't have to respond like with like.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:01 PM

"He/She started it is no excuse."

'Who started it' is the difference between aggression and self-defense. I consider it a valid and useful distinction, as do most people I suspect.

Also, social rejection and social isolation are social tools built in to human behavior as a social species. If they can continue to rely on the self-imposed endless patience of 'liberals' and continue to exercise their social aggression on the group, what is the motivation for them to alter their socially predatory behavior?

But personally, though they're morally reprehensible people who support death, torture and destruction to enrich themselves and their group; and are socially predatory in furthering their agendas - I don't claim a moral agency in what I do. Due to my background - which I don't make much of but which nevertheless exists - I have a wellspring of rage. After years of drilling for it, they have tapped into it (tempered only by time and laziness). I hope to ensure they they enjoy all that I have for them.

They have targeted us first. I have responded in my way and targeted them. It's that simple.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, June 3, 2013 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Mal4,

We've reached a truly fascinating impasse. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you think Jongs' and AURaptor are bad people?

For a savvy, thinking person you really are stuck inside your own head on this one. You have decided that you know all, and nothing I say will sway you.

How the hell do you claim to know what I think? That is damned presumptuous, and I have to say that between this and Sig's rape thing, I have lost a lot of respect that I used to have for a few posters here. If you would please pay me the respect (and thence earn mine back) of not assuming that you are omnipotent, I will explain.

I see a few possibilities.

1. The poster known as Rappy is not a real person but a sock invented by those who have been known to invent socks. This would explain oh so much about him. (I could expand on this, but I won't.) It would not make him a bad person because he would not be a real person. I don't feel bad poking him because it clearly causes him no pain. You know, because he's not real and feels no pain.

2. The Rap is a real person with some serious issues with logical thought when it comes to politics, probably due to his upbringing. Though in many other ways he is entertaining and likeable and a GOOD PERSON, and I'd sit and have a beer and talk to him about Firefly any day, I find it impossible to have a rational discussion of politics with him. I don't feel bad poking him in RWED because if it bothered him, he wouldn't try so hard to invite it. I don't believe he is a bad person and I wish him no harm, (Did you read that? Could you read it again just to be sure?) but I have absolutely no use for him when it comes to rational discussion.

Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.

You seem incapable of allowing either of these options. Are you capable of seeing people as complex creatures that might be unbearable in some ways without being bad people overall? Cause that's how I think of many many people. Even the he-devil Cheney. I despise what the man has done, yes I even despise the man himself, but I wouldn't say he is a bad person (the way you seem to be painting things) or evil or belongs in hell. I'm sure he had his reasons for doing what he did. I know people like that in real life.

I believe that very very few people do bad things because they are inherently bad, therefore there are very few bad people. But I know there are people whose behavior is not acceptable. So I don't accept it.

Are you capable of recognizing these shades of gray?

As for being a bully, honey, I am real curious as to why you don't apply that term to Rappy. He's been MUCH more abusive on these boards than me. Why are you so happy to see him as some kind of victim here?

It's like the little wimpy kid turned around and punched the bully in the nose. Who do you call a "bad person" there? You gonna call the wimpy kid a bully?

Cause sorry, I don't buy the way you're selling the Rapster as some poor little victim here. If that's really what you think, you must not have been actually reading any RWED threads over the past 8 years.

And please, again, don't go presuming that you know what I think. That's just about the most insulting thing you can do.

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 3, 2013 2:24 AM

Interesting. Mal4Prez, I don't think I've had the awareness to observe your interactions with AuRaptor and others - other people interacting with AuRaptor tends to dominate the discussion, and I tend to not follow most of the discussions very well.

However I like what you are saying here, and it is similar to what I think about how to handle conversations with people I disagree with politically. I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.

I am not sure about the mocking, if that's the same thing as what I'm describing. I could try to consider board behaviour in the frame of both sides mocking each other, without malice. However, I'm not sure that making that assumption or acting on it is a good precedent, though you might truly have no malice to offer.

KWICKO

Monday, June 3, 2013 2:32 AM

Quote:
Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.

As I've pointed out time and time again, our best weapon against zealotry and fundamentalism is mockery and ridicule. Wait - our TWO best weapons are mockery, ridicule, and - hold on - our THREE best weapons are...

Honestly, I didn't expect this sort of Spanish Inquisition!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

KWICKO

Monday, June 3, 2013 2:43 AM

Quote:
Posted by ByteMite:

I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.

I gave up the pretense long ago, because no matter what you say, someone will get offended by it. I cannot live in fear of offending the easily offended.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 3, 2013 2:43 AM

Quote:

'Who started it' is the difference between aggression and self-defense. I consider it a valid and useful distinction, as do most people I suspect.

Interesting as I generally have an issue with how self defense is often defied in the US. I am surprised that there are places where killing someone is justifiable because they have come to steal your widescreen tv.

Nevertheless I don't see these actions as self defense, but revenge or vengance and I think there is a difference. Revenge just creates cycles of abusive behaviour with no one taking responsibility, because everyone else claims the other started it or does more of it. The only way out of the cycle is to not play the game by the abuser's rules.

Each of us here chooses how we respond and to what we respond to. At any time you or I can walk away and not come back if we don't like the tone/content of this board, or if it triggers stuff in us that is painful.

Or we can choose to ignore certain posters or topics or posts that we think might be fruitful. Or we can choose to post to unreasonable posts in a reasonable manner, or with as much reason we can muster.

I can honestly say when the threads descend into bickering 'you idiot' 'no, you are' I just scroll past and don't read.

Quote:
Also, social rejection and social isolation are social tools built in to human behavior as a social species. If they can continue to rely on the self-imposed endless patience of 'liberals' and continue to exercise their social aggression on the group, what is the motivation for them to alter their socially predatory behavior?

There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour. There is evidence that it will in fact escalate poor behaviour. On the other hand, its hard to continue to be a bastard if others are being reasonable. Please note that I say 'hard' and not impossible.

Quote:
But personally, though they're morally reprehensible people who support death, torture and destruction to enrich themselves and their group; and are socially predatory in furthering their agendas - I don't claim a moral agency in what I do. Due to my background - which I don't make much of but which nevertheless exists - I have a wellspring of rage. After years of drilling for it, they have tapped into it (tempered only by time and laziness). I hope to ensure they they enjoy all that I have for them.

They have targeted us first. I have responded in my way and targeted them. It's that simple.

And there lies the excuses of those who also use torture, death and destruction. "Because they did it first" It's the beginning of the end when reasonable people start to think this way.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, June 3, 2013 3:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Interesting. Mal4Prez, I don't think I've had the awareness to observe your interactions with AuRaptor and others - other people interacting with AuRaptor tends to dominate the discussion, and I tend to not follow most of the discussions very well.

However I like what you are saying here, and it is similar to what I think about how to handle conversations with people I disagree with politically. I often make a snark now and then, though I try not to offend with my snarks.

I am not sure about the mocking, if that's the same thing as what I'm describing. I could try to consider board behaviour in the frame of both sides mocking each other, without malice. However, I'm not sure that making that assumption or acting on it is a good precedent, though you might truly have no malice to offer.

OK, that's something like what I'm trying to express. If I thought I was actually hurting Rappy, I would never poke him like I do now and then.

If I may be so bold, I say things to you now and then that I know you do not like. The difference is, I believe 100% that you are real and the things you feel are real, and I am very much aware of the effect my posts might have on you. You may get a little... shall we say erratic?... at times, but that is real and understandable and it's what you are feeling and I would never insult you for it. I try to present alternate takes on situations that I think might help you. I try to do it honestly and gently.

Wulfie is another though very different example. This is a person I don't like and probably never will. There's likely not a thing that Wulf and I would enjoy talking to each other about. (I could be wrong.) But I see reality in his posts, a real person with reasons for what he's saying, and I try to be careful not to dig too deep when I reply to him. I think I could do harm there.

Rappy? No. I don't see that anything anyone says here ever does him harm. This, more than anything, convinces me that he is unreal. He's either an intentional invention or a real person with some bizarre partitioning of his brain that makes him untouchable.

Did you ever notice that the mocking headed his way is generic and impersonal? What do we really know about him, and what would we say to really hurt him if that's what we were after? For all the 1000s of posts he's made here, I still have no good feel for who he is as a human being. If I wanted to actually hurt him (which i don't) I wouldn't know what to say.

Really, there's some seriously lack of reality about him. I admit, it's a little fascinating. He's like a puzzle. Extra annoying because I can't figure it out.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, June 3, 2013 3:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour. There is evidence that it will in fact escalate poor behaviour. On the other hand, its hard to continue to be a bastard if others are being reasonable. Please note that I say 'hard' and not impossible.

Can't disagree with any of this.

I add the caveat that this is the internet, where escalation of bad behavior is easier times 10, and the continuing to be a bastard thing is easier times 100.

1KIKI

Monday, June 3, 2013 4:44 AM

"There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour."

There is. Some time ago a number of us pointedly ignored lil' rappy for weeks at a time. He actually moderated his posts for the better to gain a response from people. That was an exercise of one of the options: social isolation. And it worked.

OTOH, having been on the board from the very beginning, I've seen probably thousands of person-hours if not tens of thousands of person-hours wasted every year on these posters. Of reasoned, factual, documented and validated argument about any number of topics: poverty and death. Muslims. wiretapping. the death penalty. birth control. abortion. Bush's magical shrinking economy and magical ballooning deficit. Iraq's magical disappearing WMDs. gun control. human rights. global warming. health care. drugs. homosexuality. ... you name it, we've been there, done that as a general group of people on a website, many many times over. After all those facts, and all that reason, and all that patience by all those people trying to rationally discuss the topics - do YOU detect any change in the behavior of our rightards? If anything, they're worse.

Let's take a look at our little jongsie specifically. What was it that ticked him off? It, according to him, was Nikki's posts. So, did Niki post snark? No. Did she call him or anyone names? no. Did she flood the board? no. Is she willing to discuss anything she posts with anyone who has something reasonable to say? yes. All she did - sans snark, sans name-calling, sans partisanship, sans trolling - was post things she was interested in in the hopes of sparking a conversation.

That's what set our little jongsie into his widdle tantwum - was a poster posting things they were interested in in the hopes of having a discussion.

Oh the horror, the horror. How COULD she do THAT to him? No WONDER he went off the deep end. She deserved it. Serves her right.

So, in the midst of all this, SignyM very patiently, consistently, replied to many of Jongie's posts with a brief topical reply and the end-line: please discuss. And what did Jongsie do? Do I need to repost it again, or do you remember the vile attack he launched on the only person who was treating him like a reasonable person at the time?

And what did SignyM do to deserve that? Well, she replied reasonably and asked for discussion on topics that HE posted and was presumably interested in discussing. I have to say, she was almost as bad as Nikki in provoking that poor widdle man into such a fit. She should hang her head in shame.

I've had it with them. They launch an attack, and if I'm around I guarantee I will escalate right back. And no, it's not a moral stand. I'm not basing it on how 'evil' they are (though they are all morally bankrupt but too cowardly to do anything to anyone except by proxy). This is what I choose because I deeply loathe them and everything they do.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 3, 2013 6:48 AM

Quote:
There is no evidence that responding with similar behaviour changes anyones behaviour.

Actually, there is. There is a game theory tournament in Toronto every ten years or so. A number of years ago, they had computer tournament of the Prisoner's Dilemma. Computer and game theorists from all over N America entered their programs into the fray, for several hundred rounds against the other competitors, then on to the playoffs. The program that won was not at all complicated, it was just a few lines of code and it was called "tit for tat". The way it worked was that it would initiate with a cooperative move, and after that it would simply mirror the move of the other player. Not only did "tit for tat" have the highest total points, it trained the games it played against to also be cooperative, and THEY had higher points when they played "tit for tat".

There is a caveat to that, though: that assumes that each player views the same things as reward and the same things as punishment.

We took a class on parenting difficult children, most of whom had either ADHD or ODD. Now, ADHD children LOVE attention more than anything! But what usually happens is that when children are behaving well, the parents say "that's nice dear" and they scurry off to do all of the things they couldn't do when their child was misbehaving. But when the child is MISbehaving, the parents scold, slap... but they're PAYING ATTENTION. The parents THINK they're punishing their child, but it is in fact VERY REWARDING! The exact behavior they're trying to eliminate, they're actually encouraging. Sooner or later, it leads to real abuse. What the child finds very punishing is isolation.

See where I'm going with this?

Quote:
As I've pointed out time and time again, our best weapon against zealotry and fundamentalism is mockery and ridicule. Wait - our TWO best weapons are mockery, ridicule, and - hold on - our THREE best weapons are...

As much as I appreciate your rapier logic... I laugh out loud and read it to hubby.... it's never worked on rappy. The guy is immune to logic or facts, apparently.

Quote:
Furthermore, I will counter his attempts to ruin my rational discussion by mocking him. Because, first of all, this tone of conversation started with him, and second because it doesn't hurt him. He comes back to it, again and again with apparent glee.

Well, unless you like to mock him for YOUR enjoyment, this is another approach that doesn't seem to be working.

I read a paper - which I can't find anymore- that explains why people become even more intractable in their irrational beliefs when presented with contrary information. They hold these beliefs so firmly that whenever they can convince themselves (once again) they they're correct, they get a shot of dopamine (the addiction chemical). It gets to the point where they seek out conflict just to get that dopamine fix. I know it's a strange reward system, but having watched rappy over the years, I'd have to say it's true.

The other key to understanding rappy is that he ONLY responds to fear. Fear is the driving force behind everything he does... he's afraid of certain people, but his response is to dive into a middle of the biggest, baddest group that he can find. Now, this group that rappy wants protecting him can't be a group of namby-pamby libruls, they have to make HIM feel afraid, because only scary, powerful people can protect him from other scary people. Being isolated from a group of softy-liberals doesn't worry him too much, because ... hell, they're just softy-liberals, HOW can they possibly protect him??? KIKI remembers part of the isolation experiment, but not the whole thing... before I isolated him, I subtly threatened him to establish my authority. Yanno what?? It worked. Rappy responds to fear, and for a (little) while he wanted to be part of MY group, and being excluded made him nervous.

I woul

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 3, 2013 8:08 AM

I never said self defence isn't valid, I said that a) I don't understand a lot of Americans attitude to self defense b) I don't think what is going on here is self defense.

Re a) I think if you do have to use self defense, you need to do so with inflicting the least possible harm necessary. therefore, shooting someone in the head who is trying to steal from you is a disproportionate response.

Re b) pretty self explanatory.

I am interested in your reference to game theory. I'd like to see more information on that. It goes against behavioural theory, which is more along the lines of what you described re ADHD kids. I've seen people, including parents, including myself, escalate conflict by doing the same behaviours as the other ie shouting, swearing.

In any event, I see the tit for tat too often in politics. It is the reasonable person's dilemna in my view. Do you keep being reasonable and ignored by the media, look weak, continiously be abused, or do you jump into the fray with the same hideous tactics as the opposition. Yeah, well then you have no reasonable candidates, everyone's a bastard and voters lose faith. Kind of what is happening.

Personally, I prefer the starve something of oxygen theory, and if you do have to be mean, be mean and clever and funny. Not just nasty. Why I love Colbert and the other one whose name escapes me.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, June 3, 2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

MAL4- You have yet to explain to me WHY you were so horrified when I equated genocide-promoting rappy with a rapist. If there wasn't real genocide going on, if rappy wasn't there clapping, cheering, and singing "another one bites the dust" it would all just be theoretical. But it's not. Please, tell me where his behavior rates on YOUR scale of ethics.

OMG. You really are going full out Rappy on this one, aren't you? This is exactly the kind of stuff I expect from him. I explained in spades. The fact that you don't understand or accept my explanation does not mean I didn't explain.

Here, I will try to sum it up for you one more time. Genocide is not rape. Kay? Got it now?

I'm done talking to you about this. If you want to throw around terms that don't apply, have at it. But don't be confused as to why I think less of you. Especially when you're using such staight-up Rappy tactics.

And yes, my preferred response to Rappy is to ignore him. When I mock him its only one or two posts then I ignore his hysterics. His "arguments", or really, tactics aren't worth more that.

So when I ignore you now, guess what that's saying?

NIKI2

Monday, June 3, 2013 4:10 PM

Wow, Mal4, so much said so well--not that I agree with it all, but nonetheless...

Quote:
As for being a bully, honey, I am real curious as to why you don't apply that term to Rappy. He's been MUCH more abusive on these boards than me. Why are you so happy to see him as some kind of victim here?[/quote

In spades. So many times I've tried to back off and be reasonable with Rap, but what I get back is so consistently insulting, eventually I start responding in kind.

Quote:
Really, there's some seriously lack of reality about him. I admit, it's a little fascinating. He's like a puzzle. Extra annoying because I can't figure it out.

Part of the reason I keep thinking he just wants attention, is just SO contrarian and abusive only in order to get reples. Hadn't thought about it, but you're right; in all the time I've been here, I don't know SQUAT about Rap as a human being, tho' I know quite a bit about others. I must have picked up somewhere that he's said he's in Washington, and 46. I've noticed he likes dogs (and possibly other animals), seen references to Star Trek and Dr. Who, has some interest in astronomy, and we've been able to converse on a few non-political subjects. That's all (of course I only "know" him in RWED). It IS interesting, since others have shared enough over time for me to have at least a few other ideas about them. I see I've been here since July of 2009...so in almost four years, after a HUGE volume of posts, I know virtually nothing about Rap as a human being. Interesting.

Quote:
OTOH, having been on the board from the very beginning, I've seen probably thousands of person-hours if not tens of thousands of person-hours wasted every year on these posters. Of reasoned, factual, documented and validated argument about any number of topics: poverty and death. Muslims. wiretapping. the death penalty. birth control. abortion. Bush's magical shrinking economy and magical ballooning deficit. Iraq's magical disappearing WMDs. gun control. human rights. global warming. health care. drugs. homosexuality. ... you name it, we've been there, done that as a general group of people on a website, many many times over.

Okay, I've only been here four years, but I've seen all that. I wasn't here when people ignored Rap so I never got to see any "moderating" of his behavior, and I HAVE never seen any, CERTAINLY not with respect to me.

On the other hand, Kiki:

Quote:
So, did Niki post snark? No. Did she call him or anyone names? no.

That's not true. A LOT of what I put up is anti-right-wing, which counts every bit as much as Jong's anti-left-wing when it comes to a kind of "neener, neener" snark. Watching Jong do it these days, I can certainly see how it would FEEL to righties like I "flood the board". And certainly I call people names, I don't know how you could miss that...well, insofar as I refer to them in "disparaging terms", admittedly not individual nasty monikers. I don't think I'm nearly as overtly nasty as Rap or some others, but I've snarked with the worst of them. And good gawd, you can't possibly be serious with "sans partisanship"! ;o)

Wow, Sig, that "treatise" was splendiferous, many thanx! The misbehaving kids is why I got the belief I did about Rap--I'm not so sure about the reasoning about Rap's fear, tho'. Certainly it's easy to see that fear is behind virtually everything about the posts he writes (if they're for real), but I find it hard to believe that fear would change his attitude here; isolation, maybe, and UNQUESTIONABLY "If not, it would certainly reduce the percentage of posts devoted to rappy!" I'm so sick to death of those unending back-and-forths and scrolling past them to TRY and find something worth reading/replying to...it

KPO

Monday, June 3, 2013 5:07 PM

Quote:
I find that really curious, considering the VAST amount of nastiness I read directed at liberals, and even moderates, here. It's probably not worth it, but perhaps I should keep track, as you suggested, and see if I'm misperceiving things...

I'm quite interested to see the results of the insult thread. I think people may be quite surprised when they see the abusiveness tallied up, and who the principle culprits are.

But basically yes, I think the people on the left here are more abusive. The only time that hasn't been the case was when Kaneman was around - he skewed things all by himself. Like HK, I have had no real experience of conservatives being directly abusive to me, and Lord knows I've tangled with them often enough.

It's not personal. It's just war.

NIKI2

Monday, June 3, 2013 5:38 PM

I think it depends on who you are, and who's here at the time. Are we counting how many/which left/right posters are abusive, how often they are abusive (as in how many insults they post individually) to this or that person, or how much abuse goes each direction in general? You see the problem...

My personal hope is the "insult thread" might help tone things down at least a bit...hey, I'm allowed to hope...

KPO

Monday, June 3, 2013 10:36 PM

Quote:
My personal hope is the "insult thread" might help tone things down at least a bit...hey, I'm allowed to hope...

We'll see. I'm hopeful.

Quote:
I think it depends on who you are, and who's here at the time. Are we counting how many/which left/right posters are abusive, how often they are abusive (as in how many insults they post individually) to this or that person, or how much abuse goes each direction in general? You see the problem...

I think it would be interesting to break down the data a few different ways - but all we need to worry about now is gathering it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Monday, June 3, 2013 10:45 PM

"A LOT of what I put up is anti-right-wing, which counts every bit as much as Jong's anti-left-wing when it comes to a kind of "neener, neener" snark."

Do you post the same kind of vituperative commentary he does in addition to your links and quotes? Do you draw your sources from places that literally make up shit like he does? Are you unwilling to discuss the actual subject of your posts like he is? Do you post 15+ new threads each day like he has?

You may understand, accept, maybe even welcome his behavior.

I don't. A position I have not adopted on your behalf. It's on mine.

NIKI2

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 12:39 AM

Quote:
Do you post the same kind of vituperative commentary he does in addition to your links and quotes? Do you draw your sources from places that literally make up shit like he does? Are you unwilling to discuss the actual subject of your posts like he is? Do you post 15+ new threads each day like he has?

Well, it doesn't feel to ME as if my commentary is as nasty as his; a couple of times my sources have proven to be wrong, or further information has come to light; but yes, I put stuff up specifically because it IS something I'd be interested in discussing, and hope someone else would be, too; and I don't think Jong is putting up 15+ posts a day, is he? Might be, I haven't been keeping track; I know the number I put up has, from what they say, certainly pissed off our right-winters.

For the record, no, I certainly don't welcome Jong's behavior, or particularly understand it (certainly not the original thread-fest). I accept there's nothing I can do about it anyway, but the repetition on the same couple of supposed "scandals" and the perpetual focus on anti-left is mildly irritating, admittedly. I did try responding to a few when he started which were more neutral subjects, but got no response so I stopped trying.

I guess if anything actually irritates me about it, it's the nasty vein and the non sequiturs of "cluck" and so forth, which pretty eloquently express where he's coming from. The vitriol that expresses is certainly a turnoff, for me at least.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:58 AM

Quote:
OMG. You really are going full out Rappy on this one, aren't you?... I explained in spades. The fact that you don't understand or accept my explanation does not mean I didn't explain.... Here, I will try to sum it up for you one more time. Genocide is not rape. Kay? Got it now?

MAL4 No, sweetie, I'm going after YOU. And the reason is... the reason why I can't understand your explanation.. is because it doesn't make sense. You keep saying "Rape isn't genocide". Okay, got it. Rape not genocide. Because rape is a SPECIFC crime and SPECIFIC word. But when I explain that I wasn't the one who used it and wasn't APPLYING the word "rape" in it's literal specific sense, you make a hard turn right off your original argument that it's all about the SPECIFIC word, and then claim that I'm "weasel wording". In other words, you're upset because you think I'm applying a specific word, and then you get upset because I'm not applying the word specifically at all?

Huh?

I mean... HUH???

In other words, I think the confusion is at your end, not mine. You have a deeply felt reaction, but I'm pretty sure you yourself don't even know what it is that's bothering you. Please, apply brain to problem, and let me know what you figure out. Or not, your choice!

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:20 PM

AuRaptor has never personally engaged in or committed torture, murder, or genocide. He happens to support a few things I consider distasteful, maybe even wrong, like the war, and waterboarding, yet he does not consider those things torture or murder. I know plenty of otherwise okay moral people who also support those tactics because they believe it keeps America safe, and as selfish and counterproductive as that sounds, they rate America's safety higher than American values. Similarly I know he is against abortion and has said sexist things in the past, yet many people do that and they aren't murderers, and they aren't rapists, and they don't bomb abortion clinics, and as far as I know AuRaptor has done none of those things.

As such I can reasonably be sure that he is probably not a monster, rather he's just another right wing voter.

Calling him any of these things - torturer, murderer, genocider, or rapist, is simply not accurate and are all uncalled for. If AuRaptor is all those things just for supporting one group and their political beliefs and actions, then so am I, so are you, so is everyone. I support gay rights, and gay adoption, and I question the application of some statutory age of consent laws, and by right wing standards and values that means I support rape because they think gay = pedophile. So, am I a rapist?

We have to draw the line somewhere. We can only judge people on what they have actually done, not damning them and their beliefs by association. And much like other members on the board, the only thing AURaptor has DONE is vote, which, in my opinion, is the same as doing nothing. Doesn't mean a clear conscience or that voters are absolved of responsibility, but it also doesn't mean monster.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:28 PM

Sig, sweetie pie honeykins, the thing I'm reacting to is you saying that Rappy deserves to be called a rapist. That's a specific word that you very clearly and specifically applied.

If you did not mean this, please clarify.

If you did mean this, you are really off your gourd to not understand my very clear explanation of the misuse of the term.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:40 PM

I have claeified, now for roughly the fifth time, that rappy is not a rapist (as far as I know). How many times do I have to say that for it to sink in? What I said, very clearly in my original wording, was that he deserved to be called that, or worse. Now, if I had said flatly that he was a rapist... or maybe even if he "deerved to be" called a rapist, then maybe you would have a point. Once I added "or worse" to my sentence, it should have been clear from the very start that I wasn't using "rape" in its literal sense, I was suggesting that there are moral transgressions "as bad as" or "worse than" rape. I already made that point, too, several times, but apparenlty that wasn't acceptable to you either!

We could have perhaps gone into a discussion of moral transgressions- Can they be comapred? If so, what is worse? How "shared" is "shared responsibility"? But instead, you chose to exercise your outrage and disappointment. And, to this moment, I'm not sure that YOU understand why, because I the hell sure don't.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
AuRaptor has never tortured, murderered, or genocided himself.

Not that we're in a court of law, but note that there are different charges for those who actually do a crime than for those who abet. I believe it is somewhat important to discover the level of awareness in a perp to decide on the level of the crime and the punishment.

Suppose I purposely replace a pizza joint's parmesan cheese with rat poison and lots of patrons eat it and die. I am a mass murderer and likely go to the chair.

Suppose I am a dambass clueless waitress who picks up the wrong box when refilling the shakers. I am guilty of manslaughter (um, right?) and my spend some time in jail. Maybe you'd call me a killer, but not a murderer.

Suppose my son is emotionally unstable but I just love him too much to believe that he's so bad off, even when he starts talking about how much he hates the place where he waits tables and all those evil damned customers. And then he does the rat poison thing. What am I guilty of for ignoring the signs? Am I a mass murderer too?

ETA: sorry, not clear. I mean to agree with what you're saying Byte.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:44 PM

Sig, the thing I will never understand is how you can say someone deserves to be called something which they are not.

Does not compute.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:45 PM

Well, MAL4, this is an entirely different discussion, and one that I invited several times. NOW you want to change the discussion??? Fine!

Quote:
Sig, the thing I will never understand is how you can say someone deserves to be called something which they are not. Does not compute.

It doesn't compute because I didn't say it. What if I has said- of a big Ponzi scheme operator, for example- He deserves to be called a robber, or worse. Now, robbery is a violent crime, embezzling not so much. But an embezzler can do far more damage to far more people than a simple robber. In this less emotional setting, does this still seem uninterpretable?

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:52 PM

You have a social responsibility, and to reneg on social responsibility is... bad. It allows bad things to happen. As I said in the other thread, the breadmaker in the town of Dachau is just as guilty in some ways as the people who manned the ovens of the concentration camps.

But to say that the breadmaker is themselves a murderer because of this is a strange assertion. I understand how our laws work, but even our laws wouldn't charge the mother of the Sandyhook shooter for involuntary manslaughter, because again, there are limits of culpability, and limits as to who we can call a murderer.

I am frustrated as hell with the average American voter because I see them as perpetuating some truly TERRIBLE things no matter which party they voted for. And yet I do not think of them as monsters. The monsters are the people who actually commit the crime.

EDIT: Oops, saw your edit Mal4Prez. Yes.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What if I has said- of a big Ponzi scheme operator, for example- He deserves to be called a robber, or worse. Now, robbery is a violent crime, embezzling not so much. But an embezzler can do far more damage to far more people than a simple robber. In this less emotional setting, does this still seem uninterpretable?

A ponzi scheme operator has actually committed a crime, and their crime can be compared to robbery, because it is taking money with no intention of repayment. A theft, through defrauding under false pretenses.

AURaptor voting Republican can not possibly be compared to him committing rape, or torture, or murder, or genocide.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 3:00 PM

What is the difference between a Ponzi scheme operator and a banker?

In any case, Auraptor, by demanding that all Muslims be killed, can be considered to be engaged in hate speech, which IS a crime. I'm not saying that rappy should be blown in to the FBI (as I was, once), but what is his responsibility and moral culpability for what he quite actively advocates?

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 4, 2013 3:13 PM

Did I just kill the thread?

1 2 NEXT PAGE LAST PAGE