Minimum Wage
POSTED BY: Trixy
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 22:48
VIEWED: 10332
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:
Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.
Oh, those making only min wage don't PAY any effective Federal income tax. In fact, they GET money, from others, via the " EIC ", aka $ transfer, from those who have, to those who don't.
But this topic has veered wildly off the thread topic. We can pick up this matter elsewhere, if you like.
Again, welcome to FFF.Net.
Good idea! It felt odd posting in an internet topic on this matter!
Managing minimum wage is an essential part of keeping the economy healthy. The government messing with it is no different than the government adjusting interest rates.
Also, I just don't seem to get where you are coming through. Here you are, mention EIC, which is a form of welfare- the VERY SAME SYSTEM that is encouraged by having a minimum wage that is below a living standard. Additionally, as someone who actually has had to work through college, I can assure you that I'm not getting any help from the government in the for of welfare, food stamps, or other aid.
You seem to place workers of minimum wage jobs in a separate category from the rest of society- which boggles me as we all have had to start somewhere. We are talking about 28 million people benefiting from the wage raises. Raising minimum wage isn't going to encourage people to hold that same low-level job for the rest of their life. However, it might just encourage those who are unemployed to grab a job in-between looking for another career, as the job (with a living minimum wage) would be worth more than unemployment pay is.....
Raising wages encourages consumer spending, employment, and wealth promotion; the last part being especially important given the disappearance of the middle class and the growing wealth gap.
Finally, it isn't like the government in passing a wage raise would be hunting down small businesses. As surveys have shown that the majority of small businesses not only support a raise in minimum wages, but already tend to employ higher wages in order to encourage workers away from corporations in the first place. In other words, for the vast majority of places, it would be business as usual.
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My first job paid $1.65 an hour. When I broke through the $2.00 an hour threshold I thought I was rich. That was a long time ago. Prices are insane these days, up about tenfold from my teenage years. I think the minimum wage should be increased to something like $12-$15.
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The rich peeps running corporationz are nearsited. They see only to the next quarter stock report, so increased labor cost looks bad to them. The idea that the poor and lower middle class will buy more stuff kuz they need it and will now hav the money iz too far in the future and too complicated for them.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
We interact with minimum wage earners all the time, and then we get pissed when the service sucks. I say pay the people well and everyone will be better off. If my burger costs a dime more, so what. If Shell and Mobil only make $39 billion a quarter in profit instead of $40 billion, so what.
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Go work for big oil then.
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No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.
As you were.
We are the sum of our own choices.
Too few want to admit that basic truth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?
If your answer is yes. Then you inevitably believe in a minimum wage raise. Regardless of your beliefs in the permanence of the work, you must acknowledge that work is work, and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
What you think minimum wage is supposed to be rappy is not what it is at all. That is the first thing that is wrong with your premise. The rest of it is just moronic. Most minimum wage works are working mothers.
Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. It's like your knowledge base is no more than that of a 12 year old. You went to college my ass...
rappy
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
Or lobby for an increased minimum wage. That is an option.
And you're an idiot for calling the MINIMUM wage "top $."
But we already knew that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We are the sum of our own choices.
Too few want to admit that basic truth.
I readily admit that you are the sum of your choice to be an unmitigated asshole.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.
Lucky you. I've got many years ahead and there are times when I don't know if I'll make it through working the next 15 or so years.
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The big problem that nobodyz talking about iz that working for money iz going away this century; probably within 40 yirz.
The ratio between labor and productivity haz been getting wider sins the invention uv the production line and soon the job uv automating all labor will be finished. Then wut do you pay peepl to do?
Sumbody smarter than me haz to think up a new way to divy up the welth being jenerated.
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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?
If your answer is yes. Then you inevitably believe in a minimum wage raise. Regardless of your beliefs in the permanence of the work, you must acknowledge that work is work, and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.
You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage. Are you ignorant of it? Or are you hiding, hoping nobody brings it up? Are you really with the Unions?
Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.
Great post. Many times I've had to recruit new hires due to expansion. I found the best place to find them was by looking at our competitor's employees. Hire the best they have and it becomes a win-win situation. You strengthen your company while hurting your competitor. God bless America and Free Market Capitalism.
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You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage.
Hopefully it's because they know that raising the minimum wage gets the economy moving.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage. Are you ignorant of it? Or are you hiding, hoping nobody brings it up? Are you really with the Unions?
So, your logic is, that democrats solely push for minimum raise wages because of unions and not because of the various economic impacts that minimum wage being so far behind has? If so, that is pathetic. Below this post I have decided to include posts from the other thread in which I brought up several trends associated with the gap between minimum wage and the inflation of goods. Please do read them. They might just enlighten you a tad.
Moreover, it is this sort of closed-minded "us-against-them" attitude that is sinking this nation and that will lead to the death of the republican party at this rate (barring change). Tic-for-tac politics doesn't work. Regardless of the motivation, minimum wage raise is much needed for economic reasons.
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Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch
I have worked my way through college. By tooth and hoof I worked 52 hours a week while attending school last year. And, ironically, it was my internship, where I held full employee responsibilities as a Network Analyst (70k a year starting-salary job) that I found the easiest of the jobs I held. In fact, my job at Hellmart (walmart), was by far the most challenging as I had little-to-no choice over my hours, and the work conditions were absolutely horrid for the pay I received. And, make no mistake, my experience isn't out of the ordinary, it is the norm. Skilled workers hold MUCH more pull over their employers because they have a trade that not everyone knows. Unskilled labor can be performed by anyone, and as such, workers are treated as expendable (something I won't necessarily argue against).
That burger flipper, who you claim to be drunk and stoned, still likely impacts more customers on a daily basis than you could hope to in a week. The average McDonalds employee will serve up to a several thousand customers during their shift. And in turn, directly makes more money for there company then you do.
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is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week?
I would be interested in knowing how many skilled labor positions require a higher safety awareness than an unskilled labor position. You forget that the economy we live in is a service-economy. Services are hardly more dangerous than physical labor in most circumstances.
The only difference between your average unskilled labor-worker and the average skilled labor-worker is an education. College is the new class divider, and it is merciless.
As I stated before, unskilled labor workers are treated as expendable, so 90% of the time their job (which costs the company next to nothing to replace) is likely more on the line then most skilled laborers (whose jobs usually prove relatively valuable to the company, and require educated candidates to replace). If there are a ton of unskilled laborers out there, it is likely because they work for a wealthy business in which consumer opinion means next-to-nothing (whereby, the blame falls on the consumer) such as Walmart....
Again, referring to something stated earlier in this thread. Most minimum wage earners are women. Keep that in mind throughout this topic.
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People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted
Promotional pay is usually based off of an employee's starting salary. Raising minimum wage ensures that promotions and raises also pay off.
I d
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Quote:
Orignally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
. - Minimum wage absolutely needs to be raised. It is so far behind inflation that it is actually hurting the economy. Our congressmen have this weird idea that only the youth work for minimum wage establishments. This is hardly the case, the average age of a fast food employee is 28!
Welcome, but on this matter I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Raising the min wage benefits more union employees than it does entry level folk . It's a starting point. Anyone @ 38 who still is getting only min wage prolly deserves it.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
Union Employees? What the hell are you talking about?
Minimum wage is a wide scale federal standard. It wouldn't just apply to those you seem to label as "union". The gap between minimum wage and the rise in prices for goods (inflation adjusted) has grown out of control since 1980. The differential is nearing $2, which is a crime given the economic situation we are in. I can tell you are the conservative type- so here is something that should get through to you- in not raising minimum wage we are drastically increasing the demand for welfare and unemployment benefits, as in many cases you can make more money off of those then you can a starting position job.
Moreover, just because someone has taken a sub-optimal career path doesn't mean they don't deserve the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage. It isn't like we are talking about forcing mom and pop shops to close up here. I am refering to the travesties that exist in employers such as Walmart, McDonalds, and other corporations in which employees make a cent for every dollar they make for the company...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
TRIXY, rappy is an ideolog. You'll see by his response to you on the wage issue. On this issue I agree with you so far.
How about you allow others to form their own conclusions, w/ out trying to poison the well ?
@ Trixy - I never said it would ONLY apply to union employees. But since union pay scales are often contractually tied to the federal MINIMUM wage, raising that will also result in a hidden " surprise " for all businesses that employ union labor.
Aside from that , an arbitrary Federal mandate to raise wages would cost jobs. Even by the most conservative means, 10's of thousands of jobs would be lost , on average, in each state. Probably a good bit more.
Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....
Hell. The state with the highest minimum wage in the nation (Washington at $9.23) has the highest annual job growth rate in the nation.
This phenomenon isn't only limited to Washington either. In fact, the 13 states with the highest minimum wages saw annual job growth ranging from 5-14% while the bottom 37 states in this category only saw growth rates of ~.003%-2.8%.
Once again, this isn't a "new" phenomenon. Historically raises in the national minimum wage were followed by a decrease in unemployment and an increase in job growth. You have to remember that for every blue-collar job, there are 10 skill-less workers needed below.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.
Where I come from if you flip burgers while stoned or drunk or talking on your phone, you'd get the sack. People who are employed are expected to work to standards.
Minimum wages don't prevent people from getting promoted or getting better jobs. You dont earn the same waiting tables as you do working as a CEO of a company. This is just nonsense. You do, as an employer, have a responsibility not to exploit your workers.
Minimum wage applies to those on the lower economic strata. In times where lots of jobs are available, they can pick and choose based on wage, but in times of economic hardship where jobs are few, they are very open to exploitation, basically slave wages. Some basic minimum wages and conditions prevents this from happening.
I watched a program on the impact of the GFC in America and was frankly shocked at some of the working conditions and the impact on families. There were situtations where parents were employed full time but still living in cars/one room motels with their kids because the wages were so poor. Contrary to some of the beliefs held on these boards, these were not lazy, stupid or ill educated people, but people who had held down reasonable jobs and been hit hard by the economic down turn.
I was glad I lived somewhere with reasonable (in comparison to US at least) welfare, minimum wage and a government which resisted the impetus to use austerity as a solution to the economic down turn.
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My first job paid Illinois minimum wage of $5 an hour. I could buy five gallons of gas with that give or take 20 cents....
For the first time in my life since I was 17, I'm making minimum wage again....
Minimum wage in 2014 buys a whole lot less gas per hour, and everything else.
End of times are coming for subirbia.....
As much as the "rich" want to fight it, they better give to the poor if they don't want their windows knocked in every night.
One way or another they'll be paying.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:
Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?
No. And you can't ask a blanket statement like that if you're going to be talking about the real world. Not all jobs are the same. Not all companies are the same. And not all PEOPLE are the same. We come with different talents, ages, work experiences, goals, drives, motivations... We're not freaking ants in a giant colony, just trying to fit nicely into the hive mentality.
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If your answer is yes. Then you inevitably believe in a minimum wage raise. Regardless of your beliefs in the permanence of the work, you must acknowledge that work is work,
I really don't.
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and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.
Who determines what is 'fair' ? You ? The employee ? The company ? Teachers, despite their importance, are in abundance. Other jobs, like brain surgeons and professional athlete , are far more unique in their requirements. Far fewer can reach that level of experience and expertise to merit what they get paid. The free market makes that determination, not the govt. Thankfully.
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Who determines what is 'fair' ? You ? The employee ? The company ? Teachers, despite their importance, are in abundance. Other jobs, like brain surgeons and professional athlete , are far more unique in their requirements. Far fewer can reach that level of experience and expertise to merit what they get paid. The free market makes that determination, not the govt. Thankfully.
Gosh, *wring hands* how could it happen? How could agreements be reached about industry standards? It can't be done, we can't have consenus on issues. We have to let the magic god of free market determine all. All Hail The Free Market. You Give Us Abundance (If We Deserve It), Oh Wondrous One.
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Rappy
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:
Listen. This basically boils down to this question: Do you believe that full-time workers, those who work the same amount of hours as anyone else in a job, should be paid enough to afford to survive?
No. And you can't ask a blanket statement like that if you're going to be talking about the real world. Not all jobs are the same. Not all companies are the same. And not all PEOPLE are the same. We come with different talents, ages, work experiences, goals, drives, motivations... We're not freaking ants in a giant colony, just trying to fit nicely into the hive mentality.
Your expose following your original answer to my question (that answer being "No") servers little to no purpose.
The question wasn't a blanket or all-encompassing question. I didn't ask you if you felt people had the right to survive. And, if I were to ask a blanket question along this debate's lines, it would have been "Do you feel people have the right to have the opportunity to survive".
My question takes into consideration the plethora of jobs, companies, and people that exist. It also takes into consideration that not everyone deserves a job- that is not the point of this topic. My question's lone interpretation was to ask if you felt those who worked full-time should be paid enough to survive. It is as simple as that.
I can't pretend that I understand why you believe what you believe. I have always believed that even among society's poorest that there should be ample opportunity to survive and advance. The idea of advancement is an American Ideal- the American Dream even- and having a living wage gives people a better opportunity to rise. The greater the gap between the rich and poor the harder it is for people to leap between the two classes. We need a larger middle class. A static society is an unhealthy one.
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and that it is fair that those who work be paid fairly for their work.
Who determines what is 'fair' ? You ? The employee ? The company ? Teachers, despite their importance, are in abundance. Other jobs, like brain surgeons and professional athlete , are far more unique in their requirements. Far fewer can reach that level of experience and expertise to merit what they get paid. The free market makes that determination, not the govt. Thankfully.
When I say fair I was referring to a living wage. However, you seem to be struggling to understand that the question isn't whether or not minimum wage workers earn their worth for their employers- that is already settled. There are tons (literally tons) of studies that have shown that even the average fast food worker will make less than a dime (or maybe it was a cent- I will have to look this up) for every dollar he makes his corporate managers.
This isn't even a debatable fact... If employees didn't earn more then their pay than the businesses would go bankrupt. And, don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that companies should pay an employee what he truly earns (that isn't economically feasible), what I am arguing is that at the bare minimum an employee should make enough to have the opportunity to survive should they work full-time.
Even the lowest of the low in the chain of work make more for their companies than a measly $10 an hour. For example, the average Walmart Cart-Pusher will help serve 3000 customers a day. If these customers pay even $0.10 (or if 10 cents is even attributed to his service) at that Walmart (the average Walmart bill is somewhere around $50-$60 a customer) then that employee will have made his employer over $300 in a single 8-9 hour shift. If you do the math the Cart Pusher was making his employer $33 an hour.... And that is if the cart-pusher is only responsible for 10 Cents of the average customers $50 bill.... Even the largest of Walmarts usually have at tops 400 employees in a single store, and if you divide $50 b
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A " living wage " is a meaningless term.
Are you talking about living in Manhattan ? Chicago? Or in Rapid City, South Dakota.
And factors might determine this mythical ' living wage ' ? Are you single ? Married? Kids ? How many kids ? 1. 3. 13 ? You think THAT may have some impact on the lifestyle which a person might have ?
We're not all the same.
We don't have the same lives. To try to straddle us w/ this one-size-fits-all " Living wage " crap makes zero sense.
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So you've never heard of COLA adjustments. And you claim to be knowledgeable.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A " living wage " is a meaningless term.
Are you talking about living in Manhattan ? Chicago? Or in Rapid City, South Dakota.
And factors might determine this mythical ' living wage ' ? Are you single ? Married? Kids ? How many kids ? 1. 3. 13 ? You think THAT may have some impact on the lifestyle which a person might have ?
We're not all the same.
We don't have the same lives. To try to straddle us w/ this one-size-fits-all " Living wage " crap makes zero sense.
Living wage was the term used by President Obama when discussing his minimum wage raises (additionally it is an actual economic term). It is a wage that is adjusted for inflation. Of course, as a federal act it would be scaled with the inflation of goods felt by the nation. There have been two wages discussed. The first being a raise to $9.25 and the second being a raise to $10.10. Of the two the $10.10 is what the minimum wage should be based on national averages regarding inflation.
I apologize for assuming that you knew this. After all, it is a commonly referenced economic term when talking about minimum wage and is even in the dictionary.
This really isn't rocket science. This isn't the first time that the minimum wage will have been raised nationally to adjust for inflation, so I fail to understand why this is such a difficult issue for you to grasp.
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AURapture is right again. There is an article about wages in Denmark at McDonalds. $20 per hour minimum wage does reduce employment opportunities as a fry cook. www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7083475/denmark-fast-food-wages
Mandating high wages for fast food workers had the impact in Denmark you would expect — low levels of fast food employment. The relevant question for the United States then becomes what would we have people do if half the fast food restaurants shut down?
Denmark proves that this is not an unanswerable question. There is something that they are doing (something AURapture could not care less about knowing because government would be doing it) in terms of education, training, active labor market policy, and regulation that is allowing Denmark to maintain a low level of unemployment without reliance on low-wage fast food jobs as we see in the United States. But that's the secret sauce, not the high minimum wage for fast food workers.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Know well enough the use of the term, but that doesn't make it any more valid or legit.
It's like saying 'jobs saved or created '. It's nothing but the puppet theatre, to appease a witless population.
Seems to be working .
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Minimum wage increases won't fix anything because the added cost will be put on the consumer. Period.
Prices on necessities like FOOD have already been climbing at a rate far surpassing inflation, let alone wage increases.
The only thing you do by raising the minimum wage to 20 bucks is screw the guy making 24 bucks an hour when the minimum wage is 8.
He won't even see a nickel increase out of it.
2 days ago, he was making 16 bucks more than minimum wage with all that college education he got. Now he's only making 4 bucks more than a fry cook.....
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by second:
AURapture is right again. There is an article about wages in Denmark at McDonalds. $20 per hour minimum wage does reduce employment opportunities as a fry cook. www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7083475/denmark-fast-food-wages
Mandating high wages for fast food workers had the impact in Denmark you would expect — low levels of fast food employment. The relevant question for the United States then becomes what would we have people do if half the fast food restaurants shut down?
Denmark proves that this is not an unanswerable question. There is something that they are doing (something AURapture could not care less about knowing because government would be doing it) in terms of education, training, active labor market policy, and regulation that is allowing Denmark to maintain a low level of unemployment without reliance on low-wage fast food jobs as we see in the United States. But that's the secret sauce, not the high minimum wage for fast food workers.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
Fast Food Worker Salary (United States)
The average rate for a Fast Food Worker is $7.73 per hour. Pay for this job does not change much between less experienced and more experienced workers. People in this job generally don't have more than 10 years' experience.
Who two, is talking about $20.00 an hour? Were talking about raising the minimum wage, not giving them the same wages as say, machinists. They want $15.00 an hour at fast food restaurants but it doesn't mean their isn't a middle ground. The less they make, means more comes out of your taxes to pay for what they cannot.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
You have not mentioned the primary reason Democrats are always pushing for higher minimum wage. Are you ignorant of it? Or are you hiding, hoping nobody brings it up? Are you really with the Unions?
So, your logic is, that democrats solely push for minimum raise wages because of unions and not because of the various economic impacts that minimum wage being so far behind has?
Sounds like you are saying the answer is NO, you do not know the primary reason. Have I translated correctly?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Orignally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
. - Minimum wage absolutely needs to be raised. It is so far behind inflation that it is actually hurting the economy. Our congressmen have this weird idea that only the youth work for minimum wage establishments. This is hardly the case, the average age of a fast food employee is 28!
Welcome, but on this matter I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Raising the min wage benefits more union employees than it does entry level folk . It's a starting point. Anyone @ 38 who still is getting only min wage prolly deserves it.
Union Employees? What the hell are you talking about?
Minimum wage is a wide scale federal standard. It wouldn't just apply to those you seem to label as "union". The gap between minimum wage and the rise in prices for goods (inflation adjusted) has grown out of control since 1980. The differential is nearing $2, which is a crime given the economic situation we are in. I can tell you are the conservative type- so here is something that should get through to you- in not raising minimum wage we are drastically increasing the demand for welfare and unemployment benefits, as in many cases you can make more money off of those then you can a starting position job.
Quote:Quote:
Moreover, just because someone has taken a sub-optimal career path doesn't mean they don't deserve the opportunity to earn a reasonable wage. It isn't like we are talking about forcing mom and pop shops to close up here. I am refering to the travesties that exist in employers such as Walmart, McDonalds, and other corporations in which employees make a cent for every dollar they make for the company...
Did you notice that the steepest portion of the inflation curve follows the steepest portion of the minimum wage curve?
Did you notice that the flattest portion of the inflation curve follows the steepest portion of the minimum wage curve?
You are shooting yourself in the foot.
Can you specify which thread this was from?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you acknowledge that flipping burgers and spitting in them while drunk and stoned beyond belief and yakking constantly on your phone during only the hours that you choose and on the days you can pry yourself off the couch is not quite the same as work during odd hours, in inclement conditions, maintaining a high safety awareness, using highly logical and reasoning abilities, and actually solving a problem without immediate supervision and without wasting money, material, time, or customer/client resources, for up to 20 hours per day or 120 hours per week? People who work minimum wage and are better than their pay get promoted, while those who are not worth what they're paid often do not get promoted. People who work for tips usually earn what they are worth, on the tip side. I have seen many people get hired away because somebody saw them working beneath what they were worth, and if the current employer isn't paying somebody enough, the free market will alleviate that employer of their best worker.
Where I come from if you flip burgers while stoned or drunk or talking on your phone, you'd get the sack. People who are employed are expected to work to standards.
I envy you. And so does my stomach.
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Bah, fuck you.
Here is the simple, awful truth.
Productivity has skyrocketed,
Cost of living has skyrocketed.
Wages have remained flat, or even declined.
Morally, this is theft.
Period.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Fast Food Worker Salary (United States)
The average rate for a Fast Food Worker is $7.73 per hour. Pay for this job does not change much between less experienced and more experienced workers. People in this job generally don't have more than 10 years' experience.
Who two, is talking about $20.00 an hour? Were talking about raising the minimum wage, not giving them the same wages as say, machinists. They want $15.00 an hour at fast food restaurants but it doesn't mean their isn't a middle ground. The less they make, means more comes out of your taxes to pay for what they cannot.
An excellent point. Basically the US taxpayer is subsidising big businesses who pay shit wages because the shortfall is made up via welfare.
Minimum wage, despite what some of the idiots on this board seem to think, doesn't apply to highly paid professionals - it's a livable base for the workers who earn the least. The concept is you should be paid a livable wage for the work you do.
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The same holds true for Wal-Mart, target and many other employers.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Minimum wage, - it's a livable base for the workers who earn the least. The concept is you should be paid a livable wage for the work you do.
You are warping the definition of minimum.
Minimum, for most reasonable people, means the least, the bottom limit.
What should you call the wage which is below that sustainable for living, the wage for high-schoolers or those living in commune, with little monetary needs and equally little desire to work? Historically in America that has been called minimum wage. Those who want to earn more than minimum wage learn, get experience, training, education, certifications, licenses, and get a higher paying job.
Are you saying your country has a special definition for minimum wage? Is that the name you use for what we call welfare, government subsistence?
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are warping the definition of minimum.
Minimum, for most reasonable people, means the least, the bottom limit.
What should you call the wage which is below that sustainable for living, the wage for high-schoolers or those living in commune, with little monetary needs and equally little desire to work? Historically in America that has been called minimum wage. Those who want to earn more than minimum wage learn, get experience, training, education, certifications, licenses, and get a higher paying job.
Are you saying your country has a special definition for minimum wage? Is that the name you use for what we call welfare, government subsistence?
I'm not sure why you can't understand that a minimum wage does not prevent people from moving into higher income stream. It is, as you say, what you earn if you are the least skilled.
The minimum wage sets the bottom rung of what employers can pay anyone. This does not include welfare, which is what you get when are jobseeking but not working, a single parent who is caring for young children, or disabled.
Different professions are covered by different pay awards, which means that minimum pay varies between industries. There is however, a basic minimum wage. A number of basic conditions are set out in legislation called the Fair Work Act which include pay rates, but a number of other conditions as well.
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I know why.
Its kuz he wants to believ the world iz simple and unchanjing. That an eazy formula will alwayz work. This iz wut the welthy depend on to maintain control over the massez.
At least they did.
Now, since the world iz not unchanjing, they dont really care too much wut the massez believ bekuz they hav enuf power to defend themselvez frum almost any number uv people IF they dont push them too hard.
People get used to wut they hav. So, even if they know sumwun els haz 1,000,000,000 timez az much, they usually dont care enuf to do sumthing drastic to get a bigger share.
I herd a little report on the newz last nite that the top 85 billionairez in the world hav more wealth than the bottom 3.5 billion - thats haf the population.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are warping the definition of minimum.
Minimum, for most reasonable people, means the least, the bottom limit.
What should you call the wage which is below that sustainable for living, the wage for high-schoolers or those living in commune, with little monetary needs and equally little desire to work? Historically in America that has been called minimum wage. Those who want to earn more than minimum wage learn, get experience, training, education, certifications, licenses, and get a higher paying job.
Are you saying your country has a special definition for minimum wage? Is that the name you use for what we call welfare, government subsistence?
I'm not sure why you can't understand that a minimum wage does not prevent people from moving into higher income stream. It is, as you say, what you earn if you are the least skilled.
The minimum wage sets the bottom rung of what employers can pay anyone. This does not include welfare, which is what you get when are jobseeking but not working, a single parent who is caring for young children, or disabled.
Different professions are covered by different pay awards, which means that minimum pay varies between industries. There is however, a basic minimum wage. A number of basic conditions are set out in legislation called the Fair Work Act which include pay rates, but a number of other conditions as well.
Interesting. Some confusion arises when discussing American minimum wage then, because your minimum wage differs. Yours has a career minimum wage, a profession minimum wage. In America, the minimum wage is that which is broad-based, non-career wage, non-specified for each profession. Minimum wage here is NOT FOR professions, or professionals, it is for those not pursuing a profession, not interested in remaining in a profession, for the in-between jobs, the part-time jobs, the "starter" jobs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Bah, fuck you.
Here is the simple, awful truth.
Productivity has skyrocketed,
Cost of living has skyrocketed.
everybody already knew that would happen under Obamanomics.
Quote:
Wages have remained flat, or even declined.
everybody already knew that was a natural consequence of Obamanomics. Par.
Quote:
Morally, this is theft.
everybody already knew that was the objective of Obamanomics. Par.
Quote:
Period.
like keeping your health care? or your Doctor? or your job?
Quote:
-F
What reference are you using that productivity has skyrocketed?
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Interesting. Some confusion arises when discussing American minimum wage then, because your minimum wage differs. Yours has a career minimum wage, a profession minimum wage. In America, the minimum wage is that which is broad-based, non-career wage, non-specified for each profession. Minimum wage here is NOT FOR professions, or professionals, it is for those not pursuing a profession, not interested in remaining in a profession, for the in-between jobs, the part-time jobs, the "starter" jobs.
Yes, the minimum wage applies there as well. Minimum wage applies to starter jobs, to non professional jobs. Dishwashers, cleaners, burger flippers etc
http://www.smh.com.au/national/minimum-wage-up-3-per-cent-rise-of-1870
-a-week-20140604-39is5.html
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Obamanomics? Iz that wuts bouncing off the wallz in the eko chamber now?
Are you a recently arrived martian immigrant?
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Yeah, tell me about it.
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No thanks. I'm semi-retired now. Another year or two and I'll be totally out of the rat race. Gonna ride my old Schwinn bike and smell the flowers. It'll be glorious.
As you were.
We are the sum of our own choices.
Too few want to admit that basic truth.
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There must be something wrong with me because, I agree 100% with your statement, will wonders never cease!
Trouble is that these huge corporations, and the people who run them, want to keep their club very exclusive. Millionaires, over the last 2 decades, were popping up at an alarming rate, in some pretty diverse areas (of which certain people had no control). And if there's one thing Old Money loves is to control things.
Little do the narrow-minded realize that keeping the playing field level stimulates the economy and perpetuates the capitalistic machine. It keeps greasing the wheels.
How the fuck do these assholes think they got rich in the first place?; by the mass majority of people having money to spend. If Joe Schmoe has no money to spend, etc.
Of course, I've heard that may very well be the plan, to develop a type of slave culture. It sounds rather dark, but greed is out there tempting folks to do nasty things.
God knows I've had my share of jobs - from low to medium income - despite a good education (long story). I've been downsized, folded, spindled and mutilated. So I don't need a lecture on "In-my-day politics" anyone here, I suppose, works for a living at varying degrees. We've all been through it in some form, besides I go by the saying my mother would always say to me - all work is honorable. But wouldn't it make more sense if Tom, Dick and Harry could live in a house - one where you would have to buy, Oh! I don't know, furniture, fertilizer, air conditioners, curtains, toilets, etc. The more people have money, the more the greedy creeps in the suits would have to play with (literally play with).
Like you said, if I have to pay a dime more for a hamburger, so what. If Exxon makes a billion dollars less in a quarter, so what! How much is enough? Do you need to step on my throat for a few pennies more? We shouldn't be begging for a decent way to live. Do you want to know how screwed up our society is - a school janitor often times makes more money than even the principal of a school, much more than a teacher (for sure). How fucked up is that? Nothing against the janitor, but how important is our kids education. Isn't a teacher important in the grand scheme of things. A baseball player makes millions for hitting a little ball, and our teachers - who influence our kids - get peanuts in comparison. This is some system!
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Having had to work 3 part time jobs AFTER COLLEGE for a time, it's not that I don't value min wage workers, its that people get the false impression that the 'min wage' is suppose to be permanent or long term. It's for entry level employees. And if you find yourself in a situation where you can't get a raise, or more hours, you prolly should get a 2nd job. Or a 3rd. It's not up to every business to bring new people on and pay them top $, from day 1. The employees have to prove their worth - TO THE COMPANY - or be replaced.
Don't like that scenario ? There are options. Make better grades. Choose a field which pays well. Get recruited by big time companies. Start your OWN business.
We interact with minimum wage earners all the time, and then we get pissed when the service sucks. I say pay the people well and everyone will be better off. If my burger costs a dime more, so what. If Shell and Mobil only make $39 billion a quarter in profit instead of $40 billion, so what.
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When the new Congress starts in January they ought to make a deal with Obama, trading a reasonable minimum wage increase for Keystone Pipeline approval. That's a good way to start 2015.
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How much we pay for stuf iz more than just how much the real workerz get paid to make it.
If you look at where all the money haz ended up and wonder how it got there, the cost breakdown uv the stuf we buy iz a good place to start.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
When the new Congress starts in January they ought to make a deal with Obama, trading a reasonable minimum wage increase for Keystone Pipeline approval. That's a good way to start 2015.
Now I get it! The Republicanz are Canadian infiltratorz!
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:
Please enlighten me on how giving extra money to consumers while being completely in line with inflation will cost thousands of jobs....
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.
Oh, those making only min wage don't PAY any effective Federal income tax. In fact, they GET money, from others, via the " EIC ", aka $ transfer, from those who have, to those who don't.
But this topic has veered wildly off the thread topic. We can pick up this matter elsewhere, if you like.
Again, welcome to FFF.Net.
Good idea! It felt odd posting in an internet topic on this matter!
Managing minimum wage is an essential part of keeping the economy healthy. The government messing with it is no different than the government adjusting interest rates.
Also, I just don't seem to get where you are coming through. Here you are, mention EIC, which is a form of welfare- the VERY SAME SYSTEM that is encouraged by having a minimum wage that is below a living standard. Additionally, as someone who actually has had to work through college, I can assure you that I'm not getting any help from the government in the for of welfare, food stamps, or other aid.
You seem to place workers of minimum wage jobs in a separate category from the rest of society- which boggles me as we all have had to start somewhere. We are talking about 28 million people benefiting from the wage raises. Raising minimum wage isn't going to encourage people to hold that same low-level job for the rest of their life. However, it might just encourage those who are unemployed to grab a job in-between looking for another career, as the job (with a living minimum wage) would be worth more than unemployment pay is.....
Raising wages encourages consumer spending, employment, and wealth promotion; the last part being especially important given the disappearance of the middle class and the growing wealth gap.
Finally, it isn't like the government in passing a wage raise would be hunting down small businesses. As surveys have shown that the majority of small businesses not only support a raise in minimum wages, but already tend to employ higher wages in order to encourage workers away from corporations in the first place. In other words, for the vast majority of places, it would be business as usual.
Hi Trixy,
I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion. It occurs to me that I don't actually know what your stance or ideas on the subject are so please don't feel that I'm arguing with you. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter right now if minimum wage was $5.00/hr or $5,000.00/hr. If you're making minimum wage, you can't afford to shop where you work. Period.
I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.
Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is n
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Now I get it! The Republicanz are Canadian infiltratorz!
http://www.nooalf.com]
That would have been just as equally funny to me if both of the "z"'s were replaced with more conservative "s'sssisssssusss"
I hope nobody fucks up New Zealand before I figure out how to hurdle their barriers for newcomers....
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Interesting. Some confusion arises when discussing American minimum wage then, because your minimum wage differs. Yours has a career minimum wage, a profession minimum wage. In America, the minimum wage is that which is broad-based, non-career wage, non-specified for each profession. Minimum wage here is NOT FOR professions, or professionals, it is for those not pursuing a profession, not interested in remaining in a profession, for the in-between jobs, the part-time jobs, the "starter" jobs.
Yes, the minimum wage applies there as well. Minimum wage applies to starter jobs, to non professional jobs. Dishwashers, cleaners, burger flippers etc
http://www.smh.com.au/national/minimum-wage-up-3-per-cent-rise-of-1870
-a-week-20140604-39is5.html
Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?
You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?
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Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
How much we pay for stuf iz more than just how much the real workerz get paid to make it.
If you look at where all the money haz ended up and wonder how it got there, the cost breakdown uv the stuf we buy iz a good place to start.
The price of goods at a place like restaurant is expected to be about 3 times the cost of the labor "cost" - so if you increase the wages $3/hr, the cost of the food should go up $9/hr of labor needed. This way, the worker will need to work 4 hours more to be able to afford, after taxes, the food they are serving.
The costs to the employer are 21% plus benefits. So if the "wage" is $10/hr, the cost of employing the employee is $12.10 per hour, not including any benefits. This usually means for most employees, the cost to the employer is near $20/hr. So your $3 burger is not going to be a dime more expensive if the wage increases $3/hr, it will be closer to $4 unless the employee count is reduced, because most customers will not be able to pay the freight for the mopre expensive meal. And the fries, drink, desert will also cost more, the same increase.
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I thought you didn't discuss this stuff.
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Originally posted by Trixy:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals. If the govt truly wants to give folks back some of THEIR money, then they should lower taxes.
You seem to place workers of minimum wage jobs in a separate category from the rest of society- which boggles me as we all have had to start somewhere. We are talking about 28 million people benefiting from the wage raises. Raising minimum wage isn't going to encourage people to hold that same low-level job for the rest of their life. However, it might just encourage those who are unemployed to grab a job in-between looking for another career, as the job (with a living minimum wage) would be worth more than unemployment pay is.....
Finally, it isn't like the government in passing a wage raise would be hunting down small businesses. As surveys have shown that the majority of small businesses not only support a raise in minimum wages, but already tend to employ higher wages in order to encourage workers away from corporations in the first place. In other words, for the vast majority of places, it would be business as usual.
Hi Trixy,
I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.
I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.
Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.
Think about it.... Back in 1996 at my first job, I was making $5.25 an hour minimum wage. It doesn't sound like much, but I was able to buy 5 gallons of gas with that. Not only that, but do you remember how cheap the price of everything except for new technology was back when gas was that cheap?
Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?
Quote:
I'm in a unique position where I can make ends meet and even save a bit with my minimum wage job today. What I can say though is that if the price of gas rose in exact parallel from when I was at that first job until today, the average price of gas wouldn't be a penny over $1.40 a gallon today and virtually everything else would more resemble late 90's prices than they do prices in 2014.
The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
Quote:
I guess what I'm saying is that if the government were to subsidize say 30% of gas prices for consumer
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The price of goods at a place like restaurant is expected to be about 3 times the cost of the labor "cost" - so if you increase the wages $3/hr, etc etc etc. same old arguments
You missed my point.
More billionaires and millionaires than ever before. More poor peepl than ever befor. Almost everybody in between seeing their income dropping.
Why iz that?
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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6 string - Where do you think the money for the subsidiez woud come from?
Plus, the oil & gas industriez are already subsidized in a dozen different wayz.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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Quote:Yes, actually, it is. The government prints the money and supports its value. It IS truly government money.
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals.
Quote:I have no idea what the boils down to. At the same time that you say you don't feel that the EIC is welfare, you seem pretty resentful of some who get more than you.
I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.
I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.
Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.
Quote:All I'm getting out of this is that the minimum wage hasn't increased in keeping with the cost of living. But everybody knows that!
The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
Quote:They'll have to raise their prices. The reason why that shouldn't be too much of an issue is that everyone will have to raise their prices just the same, so no particular business will suffer a competitive disadvantage.
My parents have a furniture restoration business that was thriving until around 2010. They don't know what they're going to do about the new minimum wage law saying that they have to pay somebody $10.00/hr in their state. They only have one employee and he's not even full time. That's how serious it is for them.
Quote:
No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.
That lasts only as long as it takes production to ramp up to meet increased demand.
If you want to improve "the economy", you have to increase your customer base... by making sure that people have MONEY TO BUY. The genesis of the Great Depression was because too many people didn't have money to buy goods and services. That tossed people out of work, which caused even LESS money to be available for buying goods and services, which tossed even MORE people out of work.
But since manufacturing in the USA has been mostly offshored, if you want to improve the jobs situation in the USA, you have to raise protective tariffs on imported goods to give manufacturing a chance to revive. This isn't rocket science.
In any case, studies have shown that a rise in the minimum wage doesn't decrease the number of available jobs, and in some cases actually increase
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?
I dont know. Do you want me to trawl through 10 different awards to find information that you can find as easily as me because I dont keep that information in my head, not working in those industries.
Quote:
You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?
You make a lot of assumptions here, buddy. Not everyone doing base level jobs are living at home with mummy and daddy while studying at night to become an accountant or whatever fantasy you have about how everyone lives. Not everyone has a mummy and daddy to support them. Some people have no supports, have to do it on their own, have families to support, have rent to pay and take what they are able to do. Life kicks out a variety of circumstances that people have to contend with. Some move on to better paid jobs, some stay in low paid jobs all there life. In the rarified air you clearly breathe, have you never met the 60 year old cleaner or factory worker or taxi driver or ditch digger who has always worked in those kind of jobs. And had a family, paid rent/mortgage.
So you have some fantasy about how it should be in a perfect world, with everyone dragging themselves up by the bootstraps and working numerous jobs. But the issue is that employers shouldn't treat people like slaves. If you put in work, any work, you deserve to be paid a reasonable wage. Businesses can and do factor that in to their overheads. If you can't afford to pay the wage, your business clearly cannot afford the employee.
And once again, a minimum wage does not prevent or deter people from bettering themselves. People do what they are capable of. Paying people shitty wages is one major contributor to the cycle of poverty. It's a kind of modern feudalism.
http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/05/13/neo-feudalism-captures-the-u
nited-states/
Quote:
The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.
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You know, the right wingers detest Mao for (among other tings) removing wages and putting everyone on the same system of work-credits, whether or not they were old, disabled, or ill. It truly was a case of 'work or die'. And yet, here they are, advocating something even worse. Because they want pay to be exactly whatever the business is inclined to provide. So business can be exactly like a Marianas Islands sweatshop or a Mexican maquiladora, where even children 'get' to work for less wages than the cost of the food they need to buy.
Let's hear it for business rights and benefit!
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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It really is about the fantasy that free enterprise will magically make things work out for the best if left to its own devices. The magic of the market. The trouble is that the market has no moral compass, as we see time and time again. If it works for a business to employ child labour in Bangladesh, well folks, let market forces sort it out. If it works for business to take advantage of a global financial crash to pay pittance for workers who then use welfare to top up their earnings so they can put food on the table, well that's the market (not afraid to rip off government when government is too stupid not to notice).
Dont worry, it'll all work out in the end. Little Todd will work three jobs to put himself through medical school, while his ol Ma mends clothes all day long in the basement where they both live and little Todd's long lost Pa will find his way home in the snow just in time for Christmas just as Todd graduates and there;ll be bells and singing. JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Yes, actually, it is. The government prints the money and supports its value. It IS truly government money.
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals.Quote:I have no idea what the boils down to. At the same time that you say you don't feel that the EIC is welfare, you seem pretty resentful of some who get more than you.
I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.
I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.
Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.Quote:All I'm getting out of this is that the minimum wage hasn't increased in keeping with the cost of living. But everybody knows that!
The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.Quote:They'll have to raise their prices. The reason why that shouldn't be too much of an issue is that everyone will have to raise their prices just the same, so no particular business will suffer a competitive disadvantage.
My parents have a furniture restoration business that was thriving until around 2010. They don't know what they're going to do about the new minimum wage law saying that they have to pay somebody $10.00/hr in their state. They only have one employee and he's not even full time. That's how serious it is for them.Quote:
No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.
That lasts only as long as it takes production to ramp up to meet increased demand.
If you want to improve "the economy", you have to increase your customer base... by making sure that people have MONEY TO BUY. The genesis of the Great Depression was because too many people didn't have money to buy goods and services. That tossed people out of work, which caused even LESS money to be available for buying goods and services, which tossed even MORE people out of work.
But since manufacturing in the USA has been mostly offshored, if you want to improve the jobs situation in the USA, you have to raise protective tariffs on imported goods to give manufacturing a chance to revive. This isn't rocket science.
In any case, studies have shown that a rise in the minimum wage doesn't decrease the number of available j
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?
I dont know. Do you want me to trawl through 10 different awards to find information that you can find as easily as me because I dont keep that information in my head, not working in those industries.
Do you refer to awards as a term for pay?
Quote:Quote:
You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?
You make a lot of assumptions here, buddy. Not everyone doing base level jobs are living at home with mummy and daddy while studying at night to become an accountant or whatever fantasy you have about how everyone lives.
No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
Quote:
Not everyone has a mummy and daddy to support them. Some people have no supports, have to do it on their own, have families to support, have rent to pay and take what they are able to do. Life kicks out a variety of circumstances that people have to contend with. Some move on to better paid jobs, some stay in low paid jobs all there life. In the rarified air you clearly breathe, have you never met the 60 year old cleaner or factory worker or taxi driver or ditch digger who has always worked in those kind of jobs. And had a family, paid rent/mortgage.
So you have some fantasy about how it should be in a perfect world, with everyone dragging themselves up by the bootstraps and working numerous jobs. But the issue is that employers shouldn't treat people like slaves. If you put in work, any work, you deserve to be paid a reasonable wage. Businesses can and do factor that in to their overheads. If you can't afford to pay the wage, your business clearly cannot afford the employee.
And once again, a minimum wage does not prevent or deter people from bettering themselves. People do what they are capable of. Paying people shitty wages is one major contributor to the cycle of poverty. It's a kind of modern feudalism.
http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/05/13/neo-feudalism-captures-the-u
nited-states/Quote:
The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.
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No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
6-string wage
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you refer to awards as a term for pay?
Awards are industry pay rates.
Quote:
No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
I don't call it anything. And frankly I have no idea of what relevance it is to the discussion. What's your point? I'm struggling to find the purpose of your questions.
Junior rates apply to the under 21, but if you are over, assumptions can't be made about what someone's responsibilities are, surely. Although god knows how things work in the US. Do you get asked if you have a family to support before your rate of pay is set?
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I dont think I'v ever herd a GoP talking about lowering the % the investorz take out uv a bizness. Its often way more than the labor cost and coud be going to a single person.
1 alredy rich guy who happened to hear that a startup wuz in desperate need uv cash gets to hog up more money than hundredz or thouzandz uv peepl doing the real work.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)
Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?
A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. Actually, I remember car-pooling with my friends to buy smokes in Indiana and not even charging them anything. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon and we'd be able to buy cartons of Marlboro smokes for 14 bucks plus tax.
Q: The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
A: I'm not exactly following this.
What I'm saying is that with Gasoline being the Largest barrier of entry into any business, I feel that it has risen in MAD proportions compared to Minimum Wage.
What I'm saying is that when I was 17 at my first job I could buy 4-5 gallons with my minimum wage. After taxes today, I barely get 2 gallons of gas for the same hours worth of work. (Ironically, although I've never been a bad worker, I'm like Insanely good at what I do today, so I feel I'm making even that much less because I'm twice the worker I was when I was 17)
Bottom line, the costs of goods has doubled today since only the early to mid 2000's.
I don't know about you, but I've always saved all of my reciepts. (I know, crazy right?).
I'll show you a ton of proof that prices on ordinary "neccity type goods" have nearly quadrupled since the late 90's. It's easy to miss that when the price of technology is always falling the other way at an equal pace. ;)
Q: Are you arguing that the min wage increase WILL hurt small businesses, or WILL NOT hurt? Your above statements seem conflicting, or unclear.
A: I know it will hurt my parent's business. I have to believe that it will hurt a lot of people's parents businesses. My parents aren't the only "stupid" ones out there that thought the Money Tree was going to rain down forever.
Unfortunately my parents never had a team of lawyers on retainer like GE so they could just 6Sigma their way out of this one......
Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.
A: Whether you're making 5 bucks an our or 5 million bucks an hour at Minimum Wage, you still can't afford to shop where you work ;)
STATEMENT: No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.
A: I agree totally. They'll be spending "more" as an amount, but yada, yada, yada.....
Ask me again why we're even arguing about anything since you're just repeating back to me things I've been saying! :)
STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.
You're ABSOLUTELY right.....
It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.
I love you JSF. Chances are we agree on 90% of everything even if there are some issues we are polar opposites on.
I think this one is one of the ones we can give at least a big 80% mutual approval of common ground if not nearly 20% more. :)
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)
Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?
A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon
I do not recall gas prices that low at that time. Online search indicates $1.23 average for 1996, and I assume that is for the lowest price-per gallon fuel (the most expensive and polluting fuel). Does Indiana have some incredible fuel subsidy?
Quote:
Q: The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
A: I'm not exactly following this.
I'll show you a ton of proof that prices on ordinary "neccity type goods" have nearly quadrupled since the late 90's.
Yet you insist on pretending that the increase in prices has nothing to do with the big cause - the increase in minimum wage.
Quote:
Q: Are you arguing that the min wage increase WILL hurt small businesses, or WILL NOT hurt? Your above statements seem conflicting, or unclear.
A: I know it will hurt my parent's business. I have to believe that it will hurt a lot of people's parents businesses.
Now you are catching on.
Quote:
Forget a minimum wage increase. The increased prices of good for everyone will nullify it.
Again, now you are on target.
Quote:
Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.
STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.
You're ABSOLUTELY right.....
It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.
In my state, the Dems raided all of the funds related to fuel and handed them over to Unions, Dem fundraisers, Unions, and also Unions. This past election we passed a referendum to prohibit this from happening again. Like the Dems are going to start obeying the law.
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The Federal Minimum Wage has been stuck at $7.25/hr for over five years. That amount is insulting. I'm amazed that anyone would do any work for measly scraps like that. I made more money than that 50 years ago shoveling snow and mowing lawns. $7.25 in 2014 is pure bullshit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The Federal Minimum Wage has been stuck at $7.25/hr for over five years. That amount is insulting. I'm amazed that anyone would do any work for measly scraps like that. I made more money than that 50 years ago shoveling snow and mowing lawns. $7.25 in 2014 is pure bullshit.
3 cents per day would surely be better, as American companies pay their workers in China to avoid paying Americans who are too lazy to work.
Are the libtards complaining that Benito Obama has refused to raise the minumum wage since July 2009, even with complete control of both houses of Congress?
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Why aren't the Ferguson rioters chanting for more pay?
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)
Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?
A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon
I do not recall gas prices that low at that time. Online search indicates $1.23 average for 1996, and I assume that is for the lowest price-per gallon fuel (the most expensive and polluting fuel). Does Indiana have some incredible fuel subsidy?Quote:
Q: The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
A: I'm not exactly following this.
I'll show you a ton of proof that prices on ordinary "neccity type goods" have nearly quadrupled since the late 90's.
Yet you insist on pretending that the increase in prices has nothing to do with the big cause - the increase in minimum wage.Quote:
Q: Are you arguing that the min wage increase WILL hurt small businesses, or WILL NOT hurt? Your above statements seem conflicting, or unclear.
A: I know it will hurt my parent's business. I have to believe that it will hurt a lot of people's parents businesses.
Now you are catching on.Quote:
Forget a minimum wage increase. The increased prices of good for everyone will nullify it.
Again, now you are on target.Quote:
Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.
STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.
You're ABSOLUTELY right.....
It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.
In my state, the Dems raided all of the funds related to fuel and handed them over to Unions, Dem fundraisers, Unions, and also Unions. This past election we passed a referendum to prohibit this from happening again. Like the Dems are going to start obeying the law.
Gas in Illinois was 98 cents. I could buy a carton of Marlboros for 20 bucks. If my friends loaded in my car on the weekend we could buy cartons for 16 bucks and I could get gas at 78 cents.
I'm not lying.....
I don't care what the national average was. That's why it's an "Average" between 50 other states.....
You go on later then to try to argue with me that prices on nearly everything else have quadripled....
Why are you arguing with me. I already know this and tell everyone about this.
Minimum wage hikes don't fix anything. Bandaid on a forever wound is all...
Something's gotta stop the flow......
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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