Obama: We brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 02:45
VIEWED: 12445
PAGE 1 of 1

SIGNYM

Monday, February 2, 2015 6:23 AM

Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html

Really?? Who did they bargain with? What did they offer? What kind of deals were struck?

And does anyone still believe that the USA wasn't involved in the Ukraine coup?

1KIKI

Monday, February 2, 2015 6:51 AM

No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Monday, February 2, 2015 10:15 PM

Well, I noticed that the usual suspects are missing from this conversation: THUGR, G, KPO, MAL4, and (lately) GEEZER, who all like to believe that this was just a spontaneous cry from all Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (corrupt but elected) government.

The USA clearly had plans to make this go forward, and one of the critical points where I think the USA was involved was in the sniper-fire on the Maidan. And I'll bet if we could look into it (which of course we can't) that we would also find USA financial support and political cover for the nazis who formed the "shock troops" of the Maidan.

Color revolutions, such grand things! [/irony]

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Monday, February 2, 2015 10:56 PM

"this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their elected (true) Russian puppet (false) government."

Well, the election was observed by international observers who gave it THUMBS UP! I know I've posted the Guardian article on that 3 or 4 times so I'm not going to post it yet again.

But you and your ilk have posted this lie more than once, it's been refuted more than once, and yet - you just can't stop yourself from lying, can you?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, February 2, 2015 11:20 PM

Sniggy The Piggy: "I shouldn't have eaten all those corn cobs this morning."

Kiki The Old Sow: "I told you to go easy, but you never listen."

Sniggy The Piggy: "Ugh! I feel so gassy, like I'm gonna explode."

Kiki The Old Sow: "Okay with me. Your farts smell divine."

THGRRI

Monday, February 2, 2015 11:31 PM

Putin is the first best reason for Ukrainians to strike a deal with the West.

1KIKI

Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:11 AM

No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

GEEZER

Tuesday, February 3, 2015 9:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.

Nice to see you're recycling, at least.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:48 AM

It's an incontrovertible fact, and it informs the topic.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, February 3, 2015 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Sniggy The Piggy: "I shouldn't have eaten all those corn cobs this morning."

Kiki The Old Sow: "I told you to go easy, but you never listen."

Sniggy The Piggy: "Ugh! I feel so gassy, like I'm gonna explode."

Kiki The Old Sow: "Okay with me. Your farts smell divine."

*SNORT!* Love these 2 - you need to start a web site, sell t-shirts, etc. It'd be huge.

A nice informative bio of Siggy and 1kiki would be helpful to explain and put into context why these are so funny.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:08 PM

One of the things that I thought was interesting is the other part of what Victoria Nuland said ... that the USA spent $5B in Ukraine since it achieved its independence in 1991.

Hmmm... $5B ... but over about 25 years. I dunno, doesn't seem like much, what might $5B buy?

Well, assuming that the USA spent equal amounts over 23 years, that's about $220M a year. If half of that went to buy off... er, I mean support ... various oligarchs and security groups, that would leave something like $110M for "the masses". Heck, you could have paid every person on the Maidan something like $1000 - which is a lot of money in the Ukraine!- and they could have stopped working and shut down their businesses for a few months on that money (How DID they manage to support themselves during the long-term demonstration, anyway?) and you would still have a few million left for coffee and donuts and posters and flags.

Yep, that $5B could have paid for a lot of people.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Wednesday, February 4, 2015 12:13 AM

Imagine if the US had kept all the trillions spent in Iraq and Afghanistan! Yeah, it's mind boggling - we could all retire 10 times over.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I noticed that the usual suspects are missing from this conversation: THUGR, G, KPO, MAL4, and (lately) GEEZER, who all like to believe that this was just a spontaneous cry from all Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (corrupt but elected) government.

So what exactly is the sig troll's source for his/her/its brilliant insight in this thread? The source he/she/it trusts more than any other possible source in the whole wide world? Expand on this reference of yours, please sig. Do share its full background and those who created and support it. In full detail please. Leave nothing out.

Other posters: note that in this thread he/she/it right away relied on the bored indifference of actual discerning, intelligent people (like me) who long ago dismissed her as naught but a troll, as if getting us to blow off her babbling nonsense added up to support of her insanity.

The kiki-sock tried to manage the same by attempting to sell me as mentally deficient--get this--because I find screaming children annoying. Really? Any follow up on that Sig/Kik troll? Please. Try it again. Try to dismiss me--on topic. Give it a go honey.

Siggy.*sigh* Just like Rap, all you do is illustrate the madness of your way of [that thing that other people call thinking but for you... it's not so much...] *thinking*.

This is fun. Let's do it some more.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

1KIKI

Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:33 AM

GeeWhiz

I hear it like it's a good thing. I'd be all for it. Cut the military. Bring all our troops home, and dismantle our overseas bases. Reduce our fleets. Stop funding offensive weapons systems. Just because we threw away trillions before doesn't mean we have to keep doing it now. It's not too late to stop repeating the same mistakes.

Would you be for that?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Wednesday, February 4, 2015 8:50 AM

So anyway, back to the topic.

I think the fact that Nuland was talking about replacement government before the old one was deposed in a coup indicates US involvement. I think it's a significant piece of information. Anyone interested in discussion?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, February 4, 2015 9:20 PM

No, nobody want to know how Obama wound up picking the PM (who has persisted in unelected position ever since the coup) well before Yanukovich ever fled the capital. That would be an admission that the USA was propelling this thing along, even AFTER a negotiated settlement had been reached on Feb 21. (Feb 22 was the day of the coup)

I just got a transcript of the entire conversation between Ashton and Paet, where Paet lays the blame of the Maidan snipings on someone other than Yanukovich. Unfortunately, the person (or machine) who transcribed the conversation didn't think to label with who was saying what, so once I add that info, I'll post it here.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Thursday, February 5, 2015 8:17 AM

So it WASN'T a spontaneous expression of Ukrainians yearning for i-pods and lattes. I mean, freedom.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 5, 2015 3:24 PM

I listened to the recording of the leaked conversation (didn't you?) when it first came out, and since the transcript follows the rough outline of the conversation, along with key points and unusual phrases I'm not worried about the provenance.

Also, it's a very different thing to say that you were "involved in" Ukraine versus saying that you "brokered a deal to transition power" ... the second sentence does put the USA in the position of determining who would take power in Ukraine after Yanukovich was driven from office, which is exactly what happened: "Our guy" became PM and in fact "our guy" is STILL PM.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Friday, February 6, 2015 9:34 AM

I noticed I missed this:

Well, the election was observed by in international observers who gave it THUMBS UP. I know I've posted the Guardian article on that 3 or 4 times so I'm not going to post it yet again.
But you and you ilk have posted this lie more than once, it's been refuted more than once, and yet - you just can't stop yourself from lying, can you?

What lie exactly? Seriously, I want to see if you know what that word actually means.

The lie that a valid democratic election should be thought of as "democratic", as if Yanukovich was president without actual popular support, a lie that you repeated yet again. And you use that lie to pretend it was OK to have a coup against a democratically elected President, be cause, yanno, it was only "democratic".

..."this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (elected Russian puppet) government."

So, yes I'm quite familiar with what the term "lie" means, if for no other reason than you present so many fine examples. What I'm curious about is if you're acquainted at all with the concept of "truth", as in, "correspondence to reality".

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Friday, February 6, 2015 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html

It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters, killing dozens of them. And then the next day, suddenly, Yanukovich's security services stop answering to him, and pull back from their positions, allowing Maidan protesters to occupy public buildings. Yanukovich flees, and his own party votes to remove him from office.

Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt, murdering president was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections. That to me sounds like brokering well done.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Friday, February 6, 2015 9:47 PM

Quote:
Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html
-SIGNY
It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters

Yet another unproven allegation, and probably wrong. Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)

Quote:
In April, prosecutors arrested three suspects, members of an elite unit within the “Berkut” riot police. Senior among them was Dmytro Sadovnyk, 38, a decorated commander, who was accused of ordering his men to fire on the crowds on the morning of Feb. 20. The three stand accused of massacring 39 unarmed protesters.

... A Reuters examination of Ukraine's probes into the Maidan shootings - based on interviews with prosecutors, defence attorneys, protesters, police officers and legal experts – has uncovered serious flaws in the case against Sadovnyk and the other two Berkut officers.

Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.

The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago. As prosecutors introduced the image at a hearing in April, said Yuliya Sadovnyk, her husband removed a glove and displayed his stump to the courtroom.

There are other flaws with the prosecution case, please read the article
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-ukraine-killings-probe-sp
ecial-report-idUSKCN0HZ0UH20141010

Quote:
Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt

yes

Quote:
murdering

probably not

Quote:
democratically elected president

I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part

Quote:
was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections.

Just like the PREVIOUS election, only not as democratic, because your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders of a violent coup.

Quote:
That to me sounds like brokering well done.

Well, that's the USA and Britain's "exceptionalism" all wrapped up in one sentence: "We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons, and then we get to pat ourselves on the back for a "job well done". No wonder you're hated by so many around the world.

Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.

Be careful what you wish for.
--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Friday, February 6, 2015 9:56 PM

MRG

Quote:
I think you meant "not democratic" whatever...

WHAT does it take to have a democratic vote?

You and KPO seem to be extremely confused about the topic.

So, why don't you explain to us why one election -the one that elected Yanukovich- was not "democratic" while the one that "elected" Poroshenko (the one that excluded a significant minority of Ukrainians) is seen as democratic? What flaws were present in the first election that were remedied by the second?

Be specific.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Friday, February 6, 2015 10:12 PM

Here is the transcript. The comments in [] aren't mine, but the underlines are.

Quote:
buzz
buzz
hello
good afternoon madame.
this is again the center action service …
should we go, do you think it is going to be possible straight away?
to connect Mr. Katz … yes sir.
so please go on, I’m connecting with the Lady Ashton cabinet.
yes thank you.
you’re welcome.
buzz
yes hello this is Mian speaking.
yes it is for the conference with the Estonian foreign minister, they are online.
hello.
yes hello can you put me through please?
yes i’ll connect you to Mr. Katz, one moment.
thank you.
hello minister.
hello.
hi I’ll put you through, thank you very much.
thank you.
buzz
hello.
buzz
hello.
hello.
hello how are you?
I am fine.
good. I’m good.
and you?

Ashton - good. I just wanted to catch up with you on what you thought when you were there.

Paet - yes, I returned last night already, so that I was one day.

Ashton - yes. Impressions?

Paet- Impressions are sad. I met with representatives of Regions Party [the Party of the just-ousted President Yanukovych], also new coalition representatives, and also civilian society, there is this lady called Olga, who is head of the doctors, yes, you know her.

Ashton yes, I do,

Paet - so that yes, whew, my impression in this is sad, that there is, well, no trust, that there was the sense that there was those politicians who will return now to the coalition, well, people from Maidan [the anti-Yanukovych demonstrators] and from civilian society [non-governmental leaders in Ukraine], they say they know everybody who will be in your [whatever the Maidaners install as constituting the new] government, and all these guys have dirty past [i.e., even the Maidan leaders know that everyone who stands even a chance to be installed into the new government has a “dirty past”]

Ashton -yes,

Paet - So that they, well, they made some proposals to this same Olga and to others from civilian society, that they join new government, but this Olga, for example, says directly that she’s ready to go [in]to the government only in the case if she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms, so that, oh, basically that the trust level is absolutely low; on the other hand all the security problems, the (inaudible) problems, Crimea, all this stuff, Regions Party was absolutely upset, they say that well they accept this now, that there will be new government and there will be external [for-Yanukovych’s-replacement] elections, but there is enormous pressure against the members of parliament [from his Regions Party], that there are uninvited visitors [Ukrainian nazis] during the night, to [Regions] Party members, well, journalists, some journalists who were with me, they saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament building, by these guys with the guns on the streets [the highly organized Ukrainian nazis, beating those Parliamentarians, to terrorize them into not resisting the coup],

Ashton - yeah,

Paet -so that all these messages is still there, and of course this Olga and others from civilian society, they were absolutely sure that people will not leave the streets before they see that the real reforms will start, so that it is not enough that there is just change of government. [He now changes totally to what the EU’s and his own country’s leaders care the most about, which isn’t at all “she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms,” but instead:] There is the main impression, so that from EU’s and from Estonia’s perspective of course, they should be ready to put this financial package together [for their aristocrats’ Ukrainian bondholders], also together with others, this very clear message is needed that it’s not enough that there is a change of government, that the same real reforms, re. an election, to increase the level of trust [is needed], otherwise it will end badly [those loans won’t be repaid]. Because the Regions Part

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1KIKI

Friday, February 6, 2015 11:49 PM

GeeWhiz

Right here, where I helpfully quoted it for you:

"...this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (elected Russian puppet) government."

The Yanukovich government was freely elected, in an internationally monitored, legitimate, and democratic election, and Yanukovich was not there simply at the will of Russia to be a puppet. Your parens around 'elected Russian puppet' means you really don't think it was a yanno - real election, nor a real national government.

Did you SAY exactly "it was OK to have a coup because it wasn't a real independent government"? No, you did not. Did you imply it, have you been implying it, and do you mean it? Yes, you do.

Are you Geezer, resorting to weak rhetorical squirms to claim you don't actually post what you post? Yes, you are.

Are you totally devoid of honor? Yes, you are.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:00 AM

Quote:
Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)

I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically. No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

Quote:
Quote:
democratically elected president
I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part

Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.

Quote:
your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders

The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy. There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.

Quote:
"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons

Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters. And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the proof of the pudding is in the free and fair democratic elections that took place just a few months later - where Ukrainians CHOSE THEIR OWN president. If that's meddling, that's very constructive meddling.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:05 AM

Quote:
Did I say the Poroshenko vote was democratic? No? Were you wrong, lying or stupid?

So basically you're saying that the Yanukovich election was also undemocratic (as was Poroshenko's). A pox on both their houses, correct?

If that's what you're saying, please explain how both elections were non-democratic.

Be specific.

"Compare and contrast" would be nice, as well as reference to internationally-accepted norms for election operations.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:22 AM

Quote:
One doesn't have to read any further than, "so basically you're saying that..." to know how full of bias and negative spin what follows will be. Tragically dim.

Too bad you didn't get to the end of the sentence where I asked "correct"?

I DID ask for correction if my interpretation was correct or not. Without your clarification, how can I understand what you're saying?

As far as I can tell, the situation is that I'm seeking clarification and you're refusing to explain your detailed viewpoint on the flaws of both elections, about which you've been obdurately obscure.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:24 AM

"Yanu was a Russian puppet, there to do Putin's bidding."

So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?

And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?

Are those your excuses to legitimize a coup?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:02 AM

Quote:
So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?

As I told Sig, being democratically elected does not forgive all the crimes Yanuk committed. Nor does it mean the people don't have the right to rise up against him.

Quote:
And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?

Ha!

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:05 AM

"He was the Russian Puppet that won the election."

He was the legitimate elected leader - right?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:08 AM

So, MRG are you saying that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet?

yes or no.

If yes, provide evidence.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:22 AM

Kiki The Old Sow: "I read that Putin is trying to corner the hog futures market."

Sniggy The Piggy: "I seriously doubt that. Besides, how could he do it?"

Kiki The Old Sow: "RT said he's going to kill all the capitalist pigs in Ukraine and Poland."

Sniggy The Piggy: "So that'll leave just us commie pigs, right?"

Kiki The Old Sow: "That's what they're saying!"

Sniggy The Piggy: "I so love our little chats dear comrade."

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:27 AM

I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).

Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:29 AM

G Not at all.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:29 AM

I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).

Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.

Locals say the man was killed by an air strike from Ukrainian forces in Luhansk Oblast’s Stanytsya Luhanska.

Ukrainian bombing of a residence suburb in Donetsk. Family inside killed by the shelling

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:37 AM

I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).

Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, MRG are you saying that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet?

yes or no.

If yes, provide evidence.

So what your saying is KPO totally gutted you 2 and now you have to run and hide. Is that what you're saying?

I replied to KPO in detail. I will reply to his response separately.

What I'm doing now is responding to YOU, and you are hiding behind KPO. Not only are you a nitwit, you don't have the courage of your convictions, nor the facts to back them up (but everybody knows that by now, because you are infamous for your allegations, for which you can't ever seem to provide actual evidence).

So, Yanukovich: Russian puppet or not? And evidence, please.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 2:06 AM

Quote:
Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)- SIGNY

I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically.

Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?

Quote:
No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

That makes no sense at all. Why would a Russian-affiliated security agency inflame a situation leading to their "puppet's" immediate downfall, if a peaceful transition of power and early elections had not been agreed to the immediately preceding day? (Feb 21) I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

Quote:
"democratically elected president" I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part- SIGNY

Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.

So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

Quote:
your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders-SIGNY
The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy.

Bullshit. Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine. You (and MRG) have this idee fixe stuck in your heads... RUSSIAN INVASION!... which no lack of evidence will ever dislodge. You're as bad about this as RAPPY about Iraq's "WMD". I expect that a decade hence, you will still be obsessing about the "Russian invasion".

Quote:
There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.

Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

Quote:
"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons- SIGNY
Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters.

Bullshit. Your idee fixe again. What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs? That would be an idea you could not possibly tolerate, and so ... you won't.

Quote:
And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 2:38 AM

Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind. He's religious about his facts, and hews to a neo'liberal' sect.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 2:42 AM

I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).

Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 4:40 AM

Quote:
Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIK

Seriously???

Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:14 AM

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:26 AM

Quote:
Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIKNo, he's kept that part pretty quiet. I don't think he wants to revisit the issue. Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:37 AM

http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=90

Mar 2013
Do you support the activity of Viktor Yanukovych? (recurrent, 2002-2013)
Fully support 14
Support certain actions 26.1
Do not support 56.4
Don`t know such politician 0.5
Difficult to answer 2.9

http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8886/

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_2_engl.JPG

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_3_engl.JPG

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_4_engl.JPG

http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/survey_most_ukrainians_to_vote_for_ya
nukovych_in_first_round_311174

Survey: Most Ukrainians to vote for Yanukovych in first round

http://www.dw.de/ukrainian-support-for-eu-association-agreement-declin
es/a-17189085

Ukrainian support for EU association agreement declines Date 29.10.2013

http://www.dw.de/the-pressure-on-yanukovych-increases/a-17257434

The November poll of the Kiev International Institute for Sociology (KMIS), for instance, shows Ukraine as a divided country. According to the recent poll, 39 percent of Ukrainians would vote for EU accession, even if the issue is not yet on the agenda. But nearly as many Ukrainians - 37 percent – support integration with Russia and other former Soviet republics in the form of a customs agreement.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:39 AM

Quote:
Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?

The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Quote:
I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world. There's no mystery here, or conspiracy theory.

Quote:
So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government, is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

Quote:
"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - bullshit.

Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?

Quote:
Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

Oh dear me.

Quote:
What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?

You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.

Quote:
So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

Kiki is unhinged.

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:57 AM

Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests:

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Press-Release/2013/2013-Publi
c-Opinion-Survey-in-Ukraine.aspx
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poll-yanukovych-to-lose-to-op
position-candidates-in-second-round-of-presidential-elections-334239.html

Then came the shootings in Kiev, and the discovery of all the grotesque extravagances at Yanukovich's private mansion, which now acts as a museum to his corruption. I'll say again, Ukrainians despise Yanukovich. In the May presidential elections Yanukovich's Party of Regions got 3% of the vote - and after that it DISBANDED. And yet to you, this man is somehow the 'legitimate' president.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:11 AM

Quote:
Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?-SIGNY
The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Let me rephrase: Then why aren't so-called Russian-affiliated security agents being investigated?

Quote:
I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?-SIGNY
A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world.

Where you will see the USA's hand quite often.

Quote:
So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?-SIGNY
At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government

Yanno, this is just fucking hyperbole. What did Yanukovich do that was so "tyrannical"? Did he jail and torture thousands? Outlaw opposition parties? Set thugs on Parliamentarians? Burn people in buildings? Drone them from the sky?

BE SPECIFIC. Tell me about this "tyrant"!

Quote:
is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions

Ahem!

Quote:
of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

So, the violence was NOT precipitated by Russian-affiliated security agents (as you suggest) but by "the people"?

Yanno, your stories don't even form a coherent narrative. You can't even make it from one end of a post to another without contradicting yourself. That's what happens when you don't keep an eye on reality!

Quote:
"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - SIGNY
Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?-KPO

So, the Commanding General has no idea what's going on? Seems to me that he's just saying something you don't want to hear.

Quote:
Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.-SIGNY
Oh dear me.-KPO

I posted several videos of DPR-LPR fighters. There are also many stories (in western press) which discuss who they are. Many of them are coal miners, farmers, drugstore technicians... people from the area. The articles make a point of it. You, OTOH, keep pointing to a "Russian invasion" that conveniently never actually appears.

Quote:
What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?-SIGNY
You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.-KPO

Well, we did exactly the same thing in Venezuela.

Quote:
So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???-SIGNY
Kiki is unhinged.-KPO

So you won't answer the question.

That's OK, you just answered the question.

Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.

Be careful what you wish for.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:18 AM

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.     1Kiki

Seriously???
Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!    SIGNY

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.     1Kiki

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???    SIGNY

Kiki is unhinged.    KPO

No, I'm not unhinged, it's just that he's a liar.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

KPO

Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:30 PM

I never said anything about importing them - no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence. However, now that you mention it, I did also hear a theory that Saddam DID import WMD - secretly from the USA back in the 80s; and then when the US captured them in 2003 they covered it up. Personally I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm guessing you can't disprove it...

You see Signy, that's the kind of critter you're dealing with.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:41 AM

so anyway krappy

"Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests"

But EVERYBODY'S poll numbers were low. It's not like Yanukovych was an exception. In you own post, he was somewhat better than average.

On the question of Euromaidan - since you didn't bother to click on the links

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
Yes in general 45%
No in general 50%
Found it difficult to answer 6%

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
Positive in total 31%
Negative in total 43%
Will have no effect 17%
Found it difficult to answer 10%

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
Positive in total 47%
Neutral/ indifferent 19%
Negative in total 27%
Will have no effect 7%
Found it difficult to answer 10%

The totality of the facts (in your own lying way you acknowledge them in the breach) is that Ukraine was divided over association with the EU, deeply distrustful of what Euromaydan would bring, and not at all united in a desire to get rid of Yanukovych or his government (or his agreements).

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 9:27 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Minis
try-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html

Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders

Leaked phone call suggests anti-government protesters hired the snipers
Call between EU's foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonia's foreign affairs minister Urmas Paet
Paet appears to claim opposition leaders hired the snipers that killed 94

By John Hall

Published: 13:14 EST, 5 March 2014

"(Olga) can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition that -- they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition," Paet told Ashton.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by KPO Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:30 PM

I never said anything about importing them - no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence. However, now that you mention it, I did also hear a theory that Saddam DID import WMD - secretly from the USA back in the 80s; and then when the US captured them in 2003 they covered it up. Personally I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm guessing you can't disprove it...

Well, yep. KPO = liar.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 9:31 PM

Well, having failed to prove their points, whatever they were, because they seemed to wander between ...

the violent coup was a legitimate cry for liberty (even tho new elections were planned)

Yanukovich was a tyrant (Corrupt? Undoubtedly. Tyrant? Not so much!)

Russia invaded Ukraine (Kerry says if you want proof, don't ask the USA to prove its claims, look to social media!)

the USA is a 'helpful' meddler (Not counting the 5000+ dead and million displaced. But hey! At least KPO finally acknowledged that the USA helped topple the old government!)

.... and furthermore KPO being shown to have lied about his stance in Iraqi WMD (oh, and being about as batshit crazy on that as he is about Russia) it seems neither KPO nor MRG want to play anymore.

So now we can start talking about other real stuff, instead of entertaining such childish fantasies.

Since Obama's admission has come and gone, the real action is now in "Closer and Closer to Major Powers War" ... which is what the USA has been gunning for all along.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58859

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.     1Kiki

Seriously???
Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!    SIGNY

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.     1Kiki

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???    SIGNY

Kiki is unhinged.    KPO

No, I'm not unhinged, it's just that he's a liar.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

KPO

Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:30 PM

I never said anything about importing them - no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence. However, now that you mention it, I did also hear a theory that Saddam DID import WMD - secretly from the USA back in the 80s; and then when the US captured them in 2003 they covered it up. Personally I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm guessing you can't disprove it...

Well done for providing a link for once Kiki! Now if only you had understood it properly...

By stating that maybe Iraq did have WMDs, and asking you to 'prove' otherwise, I was parodying you and Sig, and your refusal to believe in Russia's meddling in Ukraine. If you didn't get that at the time, you should have got it from my very next post, which was:

Quote:
Hey, I didn't say I believed any of these theories. Just in the absence of any PROOF, which you don't have, I refuse to rush to judgement...

There, you see how ridiculous I'm being? Demanding an impossible proof, and then hiding from a common sense conclusion (that there never were any WMDs) because of the absence of that proof? That's what you and Signy are doing.

It's not personal. It's just war.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, February 7, 2015 10:27 PM

Good lord. Could Kiki/sig try a little harder to be obviously a moronic liar? Trying to say kpo believes in Iraq and nukes, based on that thread? Jesus. Dumbass!

And he/she/it wonders why intelligent people only show up to mock lol! Why try a real conversation when the sig troll lacks basic comprehension skills.

Thanks for the laugh kpo lol!

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, February 7, 2015 10:28 PM

So funny I had to post twice. ;)

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:32 PM

"By stating that maybe Iraq did have WMDs ..."

"... no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence."

Do YOU see a maybe in there krappy?

Neither do I.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Sunday, February 8, 2015 1:45 AM

Quote:
Let me rephrase: Then why aren't so-called Russian-affiliated security agents being investigated?

Last I heard the investigation against the SBU had stalled because:

1. They covered their tracks well (they're spies, this is what they do)
2. They're obstructing/not cooperating with the investigation (clearly some culpable people who participated or knew about the operation still work there).

Quote:
Where you will see the USA's hand quite often.

You see the USA's hand everywhere...

Quote:
There are also many stories (in western press) which discuss who they are. Many of them are coal miners, farmers, drugstore technicians... people from the area.

And many more of them are Cossack and Chechen mercenaries, Russian volunteers, and 'vacationing' Russian soldiers. Separatist leaders have publicly bemoaned the lack of local volunteers for the cause. You would know this if you didn't only consume pro-Russian media.

Quote:
Well, we did exactly the same thing in Venezuela.

You know that US mercs did the shooting in Ukraine because they did the same thing in Venezuela? And how do you know that it was US mercs in Venezuala? Because of your worldview of the USA as the great Satan, of course.

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Sunday, February 8, 2015 2:00 AM

Quote:
But EVERYBODY'S poll numbers were low. It's not like Yanukovych was an exception.

The pro-Western vote was split between 3 or 4 candidates - that's the only reason Yanukovich was level with them.

Quote:
WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
Yes in general 45%

YOU claimed that Yanukovich had over 50% support at the time he was ousted. Showing polling numbers of support for the Euromaidan is not the same thing as polling of support for Yanukovich. Also the Maidan approval statistics you have chosen are not from the correct time period. Later statistics released in March, after the Kiev shootings and Yanukovich's flight to Russia, showed that support for the Euromaidan had risen significantly higher, to about 57% However you read it, Yanukovich did not have 50% support, or anything close to it, at the time he was ousted.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Sunday, February 8, 2015 11:09 AM

KPO- You, MAL4, and GSTRING are so fucking childish it's pointless to continue this.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, February 8, 2015 6:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO- You, MAL4, and GSTRING are so fucking childish it's pointless to continue this.

Look who's having a hissy fit.

Right. It's "childish" to point out how incredibly moronically wrong sig is. But rather than admit that, yes, she was way off base, she's gonna take her ball and go home in a huff.

This still is not my favorite, though. Kiki saying that I must be having a mental break-down is the hyperbolic "avoid understanding why people disagree with me" deflection of the year IMO. That was just awesome LOL!

Anything rather than admit you might be wrong, hey you two? Anything rather than actually having to *hear* what people are saying, rather than what you wish they were saying.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, February 8, 2015 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

"By stating that maybe Iraq did have WMDs ..."

"... no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence."

Do YOU see a maybe in there krappy?

Neither do I.

Way to continue to quote out of context and again display your stunning lack of comprehension skills. Did you even read KPOs post? You do understand that the rest of us did, right?

Burrow your head deeper in the sand if it makes you feel good. The rest of us can still see your ass waving about in the wind.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

1KIKI

Monday, February 9, 2015 1:47 AM

The pro-Western vote was split between 3 or 4 candidates - that's the only reason Yanukovich was level with them.

You ass. This wasn't an election where people had to choose one over the other. Each person was independently rated on their own merits. Unless you think an election with the candidates getting 260% of the votes is a valid one.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Monday, February 9, 2015 1:54 AM

YOU claimed that Yanukovich had over 50% support at the time he was ousted.

And I've made that claim before, with links to back it up. But the internet, being the internet, doesn't always lead you back to the results you're looking for when you search again a year later.

But then - you never post actual, yanno, evidence. So, that you're quibbling over mine is just more of the usual hypocritical double standard you so thoroughly embody.

And yes krappy still = liar.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Monday, February 9, 2015 2:14 AM

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a06857a-ae60-11e3-aaa6-00144feab7de.html#ix
zz3RBo0zHPG

In the wake of turmoil, the role of Ukraine’s oligarchs is under scrutiny

By Yuri Bender

Victor Pinchuk has had a good revolution. Close friends with the Clintons and Tony Blair, and one of Ukraine’s four wealthiest and best-connected industrialists, Pinchuk’s charitable foundation is about to fly 70 demonstrators wounded during protests close to Kiev’s Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) for treatment in Germany. Prominent during the recent turmoil, he is keen to show his continuing commitment to the activists and the new government.

“Big business, like the entire country, has been given a huge chance by the Maidan heroes to participate in the building of a new country to a certain extent from scratch,” Pinchuk told me in early March. “It will be an honour to contribute to building the freshest, most surprising, most attractive country in the world.”

As Kiev responds to promises of aid from the International Monetary Fund and the EU, most of the country remains nervously glued to their smartphones for the latest news about Russian intentions in Ukraine.

But they are also starting to ask what role the oligarchs – some of Europe’s wealthiest people with fortunes made in steel, coal, gas and banking – played in supporting the pro-EU uprisings.

The unrest has given the oligarchs a further opportunity to shake off once-shady reputations and present themselves as concerned business leaders and reputable partners for investors from European and US markets. The most vocal voice coming from the oligarchs throughout the protests, in condemning the authorities’ (alleged) brutality, was that of metals magnate Pinchuk.

We meet in his palatial glass-panelled office on the 26th floor of Kiev’s Parus Business Centre, a headquarters he incidentally shares with controversial, recently-arrested rival tycoon Dmytro Firtash.

On his desk, on top of a pile of documents, Pinchuk has a signed photograph of boxer Wladimir Klitschko – younger brother of former world heavyweight champion and presidential contender Vitali. The logo of Pinchuk’s Interpipe metallurgical mill was embossed on the younger fighter’s trunks in his title bout with Russia’s Alexander Povetkin last October. “I made the mistake of sponsoring a boxer in a fight for Ukraine versus Russia,” jokes Pinchuk, a proud supporter of the Ukrainian boxing brothers as well as a major exporter to Russia.

Crucial to delivering a future based on “European values” is Pinchuk’s hand-picking of future Ukrainian leaders, educating them in western universities and seconding them to London banks and law firms at the “right moment”, before they are seduced by the system. “I hope the people we have sent abroad will increasingly take responsibility,” he says.

Pinchuk himself had several head-starts in life. He grew up the son of art-loving parents, well connected in the metallurgical industry of Dnipropetrovsk. This Soviet powerhouse city was closed to outsiders due to its secret rocket research facility. “We used to hear our walls shaking and we didn’t know why it was,” says Yura, a weather-beaten driver in his 50s who ferries guests to Pinchuk’s environmentally friendly Interpipe factory, built on the banks of the Dnipro river, complete with art installations from Danish-Icelandic sculptor Olafur Eliasson. “Then we found out it was rockets being tested at the factory where Leonid Kuchma was a director.”

Kuchma later became president of Ukraine and soon after his daughter Olena became Pinchuk’s second wife, catapulting his businesses and personal standing from regional to national and eventually international prominence.

“Maybe I am influential, but it is the power of influence, not the influence of power,” Pinchuk says. “I don’t hold any governmental position.” “But I can establish certain benchmarks and I can share my vision about how to be more efficient in differ

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, February 9, 2015 3:30 AM

1KIKI

Monday, February 9, 2015 4:46 AM

You sure are jongsie.

Somehow, you can't quite seem to discuss reality without posting knee-jerk tv/ movie tropes that reside in your head in place of actual brains. Talk about lazy. And stupid. And without any shame. Yep, you smear yourself with the same old crap. Try firing up whatever neurons you have left in your booze-pickled noggin, for a change, and think. Yeah, I know, it's painful for you. But maybe you can squeeze out an actual thought. Hell, you might even find you're proud of yourself.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Monday, February 9, 2015 5:43 AM

Quote:
"The pro-Western vote was split between 3 or 4 candidates - that's the only reason Yanukovich was level with them."

You ass. This wasn't an election where people had to choose one over the other. Each person was independently rated on their own merits. Unless you think an election with the candidates getting 260% of the votes is a valid one.

The only poll I've seen you link comparing candidates is one asking people who they are likely to VOTE for. Unless you have another link that you've been holding back?

Quote:
"YOU claimed that Yanukovich had over 50% support at the time he was ousted."

And I've made that claim before, with links to back it up. But the internet, being the internet, doesn't always lead you back to the results you're looking for when you search again a year later.

Well at least you admit you can't back it up now, that's something.

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Monday, February 9, 2015 6:49 AM

You dolt. This is YOUR poll.

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Press-Release/2013/2013-Publi
c-Opinion-Survey-in-Ukraine.aspx

Meanwhile - the great skepticism over Euromaydan? Crickets. The great favorable reaction to the Yanukovich agreement with Russia? Crickets. The at least 40% popular support for Yanukovich? Crickets.

Your complete delusion that the country rose as one because it could no longer stand Yanukovich and craved en masse to be as one with the EU? Still addling your brain.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Monday, February 9, 2015 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
You dolt. This is YOUR poll.

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Press-Release/2013/2013-Publi
c-Opinion-Survey-in-Ukraine.aspx

Ah I see, you mean this section:

"There are low levels of confidence in all the major national leaders: President Viktor Yanukovych (69 percent little or no confidence); Head of UDAR Vitali Klitschko (52 percent little or no confidence); Prime Minister Mykola Azarov (73 percent little or no confidence); Speaker of Parliament Volodomyr Rybak (68 percent little or no confidence); Yulia Tymoshenko (67 percent little or no confidence); Head of Batkivschina Arseniy Yatsenyuk (66 percent little or no confidence); Head of Svoboda Oleh Tyahnybok (70 percent little or no confidence), and Head of the Communist Party Petro Symonenko (75 percent little or no confidence). The percent expressing little or no confidence in Yanukovych has risen from 59 percent in 2012 to 69 percent in this year’s survey."

This is what you cherry pick out of that survey, as evidence of Yanukovich's polling not being terrible?? And you say:

Quote:
But EVERYBODY'S poll numbers were low. It's not like Yanukovych was an exception. In you own post, he was somewhat better than average.

Please explain what method of averaging you used? I get:

Mean - 67.4%
Median - 68%
Mode - n/a
Yanukovich - 69% (i.e. worse)

And that's even with the data set skewed by the inclusion of unpopular groups like Svoboda, and the Communists. Take them out and Yanuk and his cronies come dead last... As I say, WHICHEVER way you look at this, Yanuk was hopelessly unpopular.

Quote:
Meanwhile - the great skepticism over Euromaydan? Crickets. The great favorable reaction to the Yanukovich agreement with Russia? Crickets.

Yawn, not what we were even talking about.

It's not personal. It's just war.

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, February 9, 2015 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
< image of a giant, Jurasic sized sh*t pile >

Yep - that's what you call a real "Data Dump." The twins like to do that, drop a load in a thread and say, "see?!" It's usually dotted with conspiracy buzzwords like, "Oligarch, IMF, evidence [sic] etc." the usual troll talking points direct from the Kremlin by way of social media.

And they're both squirters too. Imagine the odds on that!

SIGNYM

Monday, February 9, 2015 10:25 PM

KIKI look at

JONGSSTRAW. She has nothing of substance to add, only posts offensive pictures, the very definition of a troll.

MAL4 posts ONLY to insult you or me, also a definition of a troll. (I still think it was my criticism of Obama that got under her sensitive liberal skin.)

THUGR who also only posts to insult or name-call, also the epitome of a troll.

You don't need to point out to anyone what trolls they are; by their own behavior they've already obliterated their own credibility to any reasonable person who is reading these threads.

I'm sure this will earn me another fatwoman/pig- picture from JONGSSTRAW and another insulting post from MAL4, and maybe even another "Russian troll" from THUGR, but with every post like that they only cement their bad reputation.

They're trolls, so don't waste your time on them.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, February 10, 2015 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

KIKI look at

JONGSSTRAW. She has nothing of substance to add, only posts offensive pictures, the very definition of a troll.

MAL4 posts ONLY to insult you or me, also a definition of a troll. (I still think it was my criticism of Obama that got under her sensitive liberal skin.)

THUGR who also only posts to insult or name-call, also the epitome of a troll.

You don't need to point out to anyone what trolls they are; by their own behavior they've already obliterated their own credibility to any reasonable person who is reading these threads.

I'm sure this will earn me another fatwoman/pig- picture from JONGSSTRAW and another insulting post from MAL4, and maybe even another "Russian troll" from THUGR, but with every post like that they only cement their bad reputation.

>>> They're trolls, so don't waste your time on them.

Riiight, 'cause the crazy bitch is more than happy to waste her own time on us.