Are we living in a modern day facist Nazi Germany

POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Friday, March 11, 2005 19:39
VIEWED: 21460
PAGE 1 of 1

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:01 AM

I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

Or didn't they???

Is the same thing happening to Americans..only we can't see it and like the German's in Germany alot of us won't realize it until its to late to do anything about it.

The Bush administration and their tactics scare me, maybe America has had its day, everything changes sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse..in our case it seems to be the latter.

of course our circumstances aren't the same as Germany's, and history never repeats itself in exactly the same way

Of course most Americans I'm guessing would say.."but that can't or won't happen to us..we're Americans..this is America"

But I also wonder how many German's basically thought the same thing

Alot of Americans don't see or fail to realize that we are in fact the bad guys( this is a hard concept for some to wrap their brains around) we are the bullies(not us the American people but our government) We have a government that is not accountable for its actions, that constantly makes excuses and passes the buck everytime...we are building up a karmic debt..one that we will eventually have to pay..

I don't think its trite to say that our day is coming!!

Most Americans like to see our government and by extentions ourselves and our ideology as great and rightious..(Amrerica the brave the beautiful freeing the world from oppression)..all the while our own freedoms are being taken away right under our very own noses.

The world is watching us closely, isn't it our responssiblity to hold our Public servants accountable for the actions they take.

so I'll ask the question again..are we living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany

DARKJESTER

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:55 AM

"I tremble for my country when I remember that God is just."

- Thomas Jefferson

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

GOJIRO

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:58 AM

Well, if you know anything about history at all (which it sounds like you don't -- not trying to be mean, just honest), you know that the situation America is in today, both economically and politically -- is nowhere NEAR the situation Germany was in when Hitler began his rise to power.

I'm not saying we need to keep Bush; in fact, I strongly believe he has to go. And I'm also not saying America is right and everything we do is great. Not at all. All I'm saying is that it's ludicrous to compare America today to Germany in the 1930s.

gojiro

DRBORIS

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:59 AM

Nope, We arn't, sorry. (Facist that is, since a few people posted while I was busy writing this) I know this would make some upcoming points WAY more justifiable, but this simply isn't the case. Just because you hate the current policy isn't a reason to call names that make no sense. I will remind you that the whole senate voted and arrived at a majority approving the begining of our wars, not just the president.

If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the creeping in of socialism, or something actually and currently relevant to the taking of YOUR freedoms. I don't know about you, but I'm still feeling a lot more oppresed by taxes and the fact I will pay in but never see a dime from Social Security than Iraq policy.

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

Before you call us all a bunch of un-awakened dweebs too, a good ammount of people in this nation who know history and concider the true aims of political leaders still belive we're doing the right thing, or at least somewhere close to the right thing or they wouldn't be voteing for Bush. The polls are not tied because people like Facism, I can gaurentee you that.

By the way, we're clearly such bullies for shutting down the torture rooms in Iraq and stopping the filling of mass graves there. We must be the bad guys because we're trying to shut down any network who funds or harbors terror.

(Don't worry, you won't hear from me anymore on this topic, I don't have the energy to fight, I just needed to speak my peace once...)

JHARROD

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

all the while our own freedoms are being taken away right under our very own noses.

If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him. Its for finding terrorists. None of my rights have been taken away. I can still talk trash about the government, even though I work for them.

Until they start publicly beheading folk on the common for speaking out against the government, I think your still safe.

Oh one last thing, how about that assault weapons ban appealed? Thats giving more freedoms back to the American people if you ask me.

"They tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is on occassion hilarious"

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:02 AM

Unfortunately, PirateJenny, an awful lot of people won't see any connection whatsoever between modern America and 30's Germany until we start gassing Jews and invading Poland. They think your question stems from your hatred of a president and not your concern for your fellow Americans and where we all are taking this country.

I believe that the forces of totalitarianism have been making some serious inroads in the past couple of years. The disdain for intellectuals and the demonizing of the arts by the right-wing is very disturbing. The wholesale use of derision in lieu of logical argumentation by the right-wing at the highest levels of policy is fascistic. The prevalent notion that there is no actual truth out there--only spin; that all opinions amount to propaganda is a seminal fascist notion. The way Bush and Cheney & co. will say a thing and then a few months later deny ever having said it constitutes a willful disregard for reality and history. The perceived need for world military domination is something only fascists need. But the single greatest totalitarian trend in America today is that nearly half of the nation seems perfectly willing to go along. A fascist leader isn't gonna get very far unless people sign up to embrace their lies as truth and support their international adventurism in the name of peace and freedom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:47 PM

No, I don't think we are moving down the same path as that of Nazi Germany. I am starting to have some problems with the Patriot act because it's being used for other purposes then just tracking down extremists.

There is some evidence that I've read about where folks ARE being politically targetted and charges are being trumped up against them, under the auspices of the Patriot Act. I was an advocate initially of the Act. Now, the more I read , the more I recognize that there are some definite reforms that need to be made to it. I wrote recently to my congressman about it. I'll see if I can scan the damn letter I recieved back from the prick, and share it with you folks.

Strangely enough a guy renting part of a building from my company turned out to be a spook for the dept of homeland security. He (arabic descent) was the one responsible for getting a few folks nailed on weapons charges at a local Mosque. They were supposedly trying to sell rocket launchers to a person posing as an extremist, who claimed he wanted to buy them to shoot down some planes here in Albany. So far as it stands the evidence is very poor in that regard, though these Mosque leaders have definitely been very vocal about their sympathies abroad for some extremist causes.

Fortunately as a country we have checks and balances in place to prevent a Hitleresque situation from coming to fruition.

Unfortunately we have thousands of uninformed youth and equally uninformed adults, who treat politics like a baseball game and are attached to the party, all the while not paying attention to what the party is doing.

In my opinion we should do away with political parties in general. I also think we should eliminate lobbyists. Special interest groups are making it impossible for our government to get anything really done.

A friend recently told me he felt I was becoming liberalized (He tried to get me to read Ann Coulter's new book roflmao), because of my views changing in general on the term terrorism and the Patriot Act among other things. I prefer to think(and I told him so) that I am an independent thinker who isn't controlled by party loyalties or the media spew.

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The disdain for intellectuals and the demonizing of the arts by the right-wing is very disturbing. The wholesale use of derision in lieu of logical argumentation by the right-wing at the highest levels of policy is fascistic. The prevalent notion that there is no actual truth out there--only spin; that all opinions amount to propaganda is a seminal fascist notion. The way Bush and Cheney & co. will say a thing and then a few months later deny ever having said it constitutes a willful disregard for reality and history. The perceived need for world military domination is something only fascists need. But the single greatest totalitarian trend in America today is that nearly half of the nation seems perfectly willing to go along. A fascist leader isn't gonna get very far unless people sign up to embrace their lies as truth and support their international adventurism in the name of peace and freedom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Well..to play Devil's advocate, the Democrats have done the exact same thing and much more publicly. This isn't a tact that is relegated to the Republican ranks alone. I don't recall seeing a whole lot of disdain for intellectuals. Disdain for Celebrities (who claim to be intellectuals, but have a hard time saying the word) definitely..many are dumbasses and the majority are Democrats (Janeane Garafalo, Cybill Shepard and Babs are good examples, the Dems could have done loads better.. LOL) who get national coverage and spew inarticulate garbage and condescension, feeding the "Anchor trolls" as I like to affectionately call them.

Don't get me wrong..you have whackjobs like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh on the right as well. The problem lies in the fact that the whackjobs are offensive and demeaning to the average Joe (who may or may not be an intellectual) and they make the best news.

A good example of a non-offensive Celebrity intellectual..would be Bono from U2. He is the epitomy of what a celebrity should be like when pushing a cause. He's very articulate. He has SOLID statistics and information to support his causes and he comes across as being a compassionate non-partisan. I find I can get behind someone's cause, if it's not being stuffed down my throat by obvious partisan hackery (to quote Jon Stewart).

As for saying anything..well Kerry & company are the worst, a good example would be the SUV thing..that was mind numbing. That's why there is evidence that many people in the US just flat out don't trust Kerry and feel he'll say anything to get elected. Sadly, it is evident that both sides have their flipfloppers and bald-faced liars.

If Bush gets it into his head that he is going to invade all the Muslim countries and kill their leaders, followed up by installing Christian leaders in their places (What Ann Coulter is calling for), the backlash around the world, let alone in the US would be insurmountable. I don't think we'd see an impeachment process move quicker.

LEXIBLOCK

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DrBoris:
Nope, We arn't, sorry. (Facist that is, since a few people posted while I was busy writing this) I know this would make some upcoming points WAY more justifiable, but this simply isn't the case. Just because you hate the current policy isn't a reason to call names that make no sense.

You are one of the people he was talking about, one of those who put their fingers in their ears and hum really loudly while chanting "WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS" over and over. Only a few people in the US LIKES the current policy! The rest of the world is devided into those who dislike it and those who despise it.

Quote:

I will remind you that the whole senate voted and arrived at a majority approving the begining of our wars, not just the president.

That just makes the crimes that much bigger (even though some say its because the president lied he managed to convince them)

Quote:

If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the creeping in of socialism, or something actually and currently relevant to the taking of YOUR freedoms. I don't know about you, but I'm still feeling a lot more oppresed by taxes

This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Quote:

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

No they won't. And should they win they probably will start trying to change the laws so the president can run a third time.

Quote:

Before you call us all a bunch of un-awakened dweebs too, a good ammount of people in this nation who know history and concider the true aims of political leaders still belive we're doing the right thing, or at least somewhere close to the right thing or they wouldn't be voteing for Bush. The polls are not tied because people like Facism, I can gaurentee you that.

As Joss says on the DVD commentaries "Everybody thinks he's righteous"

Hitler thought he was right, Saddam though he was right, Bin Laden thinks he is right (and both he and Bush talk to God who tells them what to do!)
And the unwashed Xenophobic masses of the US does not understand that the reason terrorism has gone so wildly up the last couple of years is because they have a president who ignores international law and acts like a mini dictator.

Quote:

By the way, we're clearly such bullies for shutting down the torture rooms in Iraq and stopping the filling of mass graves there. We must be the bad guys because we're trying to shut down any network who funds or harbors terror.

You are stil BLIND TO THE FACTS!!
It doesn't matter what YOU THINK - it's how others think that matters. The majority of the world said "don't start this war" - but Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that! They don't see anything noble abotu it, the see a rich money grubbing country invading a country for oil. If the US had waited it could have been different - now it isn't.
Even many Iraqis hate the US - just because they hated Saddam doesn't mean they don't hate the US.

Especially since the US does not want it to be a really free country, they want it to be a copy of the US.
If you gave the Iraqis the right to choose, they would not want a western democracy, they would want a religious priest driven society. But they can't have that if the US has its way, and so another country is learning to loathe the US.

Especially those who remember it was the US who helped Saddam get to power.

LEXIBLOCK

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jharrod:
If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him. Its for finding terrorists. None of my rights have been taken away. I can still talk trash about the government, even though I work for them.

That's because you are living with your head up your ass, or only watching reality shows all day while stuffing your face.

If you read something else than the funny pages, you'd have read about case after case where people have been abused and violated. Do some googleing if you really want to be enlighented (which of course you wont, better to put your fingers in your ears and hum really loud)

LEXIBLOCK

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

You are right on. Its a pity there aren't more like you over there.

You see the trend, don't make the mistake the others did those many years ago: If Bush wins prepare to flee the country. Seriously.

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:20 PM

No, we don't. Volkswagens cost way more than they did back in the day. ;)

Tounge, cheek, we're good to go!

-Taylor (old VW owner, btw)

Uncharted Outlaw!
"The secret is understanding time."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

TRAGICSTORY

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:40 PM

Dear Lexiblock,

Read up on the Weimar Republic. America is not at all like it.

The problem with Americans against the current administration is they want to tie EVERYTHING to Htiler and Nazism. Why? This drives me nuts.

Simply state that America is blazing a brand new path and starting a forest fire in the meantime.

Here is some good reading:

http://www.lib.usf.edu/ldsu/index2.html?f=13716

(You have to excuse his memory with dates as he was fairly old (90ish) when he gave the interview)

Dr. Werner Von Rosenstiel's autobiographies give great insight into the Wiemar Rupblic and its collapse into Nazism as well as the US Army concentration camps)

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

LOSTINTHEVERSE

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:16 PM

Ahh... this is the degenerate namecalling that I know and love.

Quote:
This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Please go more in depth about how keeping some of our money makes us savages? I feel there might be an interesting point here. I just can't find it. Clarify if you can.

Quote:
Quote:

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

No they won't. And should they win they probably will start trying to change the laws so the president can run a third time.

Pure conjecture. You have nothing at all to back up this argument. Nobody does. The same thing could have been said for every other world leader with a limit on terms of office, and it would still mean absolutely nothing.

Quote:

As Joss says on the DVD commentaries "Everybody thinks he's righteous"

Hitler thought he was right, Saddam though he was right, Bin Laden thinks he is right (and both he and Bush talk to God who tells them what to do!)
And the unwashed Xenophobic masses of the US does not understand that the reason terrorism has gone so wildly up the last couple of years is because they have a president who ignores international law and acts like a mini dictator.

Yes, everybody believes what they are doing is right. It's kind of a requisite to doing anything. I'm genuinely not sure what you were getting at with this. The point seems to disprove itself because you are never going to find a leader who doesn't think they are righteous on some level. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:
You are stil BLIND TO THE FACTS!!

Just... wow. What information do you have that indicates that you aren't being controlled by propaganda as well? I, as an uninformed American, recognize the propaganda I get fed here, so I supplement my news with Canadian, British, and Austrailian sources. I still support President Bush. If studying history and finding foreign propaganda machines to counter my domestic ones makes me blind to the facts, so be it. I'm at least trying to find the real facts, it doesn't sound like you are given the timbre of your posts.

Quote:
It doesn't matter what YOU THINK - it's how others think that matters.

This little gem almost got coffee on my monitor. If you really need me to pick it apart, please let me know. I'm not sure I need to really point out the underlying lack of conviction this statement implies.

Quote:
Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that!

Your "99%" of the middle east hated us 30 years ago. The same "99%" of the middle east will probably still hate us 30 years from now.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

SOUNDHACK

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LostInTheVerse:

Ahh... this is the degenerate namecalling that I know and love.

Quote:
This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Please go more in depth about how keeping some of our money makes us savages? I feel there might be an interesting point here. I just can't find it. Clarify if you can.

I think what the person you are quoting is trying to say is that we have become a selfish society, in that we would rather have lower taxes than better schools, better healthcare, etc for the less well off.

Now whether we want a "socialistic" society is up for debate, but let me address your "keeping some of our money" point. The biggest question I have to people like you is, how much of our money should we keep? This president seems to think there should be no end to tax cuts: Good times or bad, we should have tax cuts. Taken to its (absurd) conclusion, that would mean we have no tax at all. I hope everyone can agree that we can not have a government with no taxes at all.

So the question is when to stop with the taxcuts? I would think that having huge deficits would be an indication that we should at least stop, but I read that Bush is gearing for more cuts in his second term (which as a realist I am resigned to expect). As for the supply siders, who say that tax cuts will lead to increased revenue to the government due to economic stimulus, I say then: after three years of tax cuts, we still have a budget deficit that does not appear to be decreasing. Where is the increased tax revenues?

Now I am not advocating 60% income taxes, and I dont think we should have a completely socialistic social service system. But people who are blindly supporting tax cuts should sit down and think how far is enough?

DAIKATH

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:16 PM

I won't say it will become Nazi germany, but I'm still amazed at what poeple get elected in the US (which means both the Democrats and Republicans).

Both of them answer to lobbysts and big companies and rich individuals who give large donations before they answer to the general public. Now don't tell me this isn't true because it is, both have to get large cash donations and funding to get enough airtime because otherwise they don't stand a chance.

Im also suprised at the attitudes of the US media. Big kudos for Jon Stewarts little outburst on Crossfire. I remember when Bush got some questions from an Irish reporter and he just told her to be quiet like she was a minion. She didn;t interupt him in the middle of a sentence so he could't finish, he just didnt like a dissident. For those who are not willing to take my word for it, I saw it on tv and will not go spend 3 hours to go and look for it.

My last argument also goes into my next, everytime they are on tv or anything else they are never confronted with tricky questions or anything the spindoctors didn't think of.

Maybe we won't have concentration camps for muslims, but I would't give this democracy a clean bill of health when it seems that the two big parties are using all the tricks they have to protect themselfes from democracy (preventing a third party from rising, plus all the other stuff I mentioned).

HJERMSTED

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jharrod:

If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him.

Actually there was a huge marijuana bust in Washington State a couple months back in which Patriot Act provisions were used to nab the smugglers... I'm guessing because the contraband came in from across the Washington/B.C. border. It made the local news here in Seattle.

Marijuana is one of the top three industries in all of B.C. and has been pretty much decriminalized up there. Terrorists were not involved... just, uhm, Canada's new breed of alternative entrepeneurs.

Back in the States, the Patriot Act is officially on the books and will be used however the powers that be see fit to use it. It's not just about "terrorists" anymore if, indeed, it ever was.

mattro

LOSTINTHEVERSE

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:53 PM

Soundhack:

I completely agree with your post. I was trying to raise the point that having lower taxes than another country does not make us "uncivilized". To tell the truth, I don't know where I would set the bar but certainly not higher than 35%. Higher taxes would make me not want to work as hard, as the bonus for working hard really wouldn't be worth the effort.

I'm not sure I see the parallel between tax revenue and better education. Pouring more money into the education system in this country really only seems to line the pockets of the respective boards of education. There really has been no shown benefit of just pouring more money into the school system actually helping anything. This is not to say we should cut funding, but that we have to look at a real change of doctrine before we start spending more. Unfortunately I have not been able to figure out a plausible method so I can't put forth an example.

In response to the debt assertion: A lot of that really has to do with government spending. Unfortunately neither of the 2 main candidates for the presidency seem to have a small government spending agenda. Also, most supply-siders would agree that there is a bottom line to where lower taxes will reduce tax revenue. The problem is nobody knows exactly where it is, and it changes with market phases. Government is too slow to actually keep it optimized. The theory that defines this is called the Laffer Curve:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming :)

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

AUREIAS

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:58 PM

nope. Situation isn't anywhere close to Germany...

Germany was suffering from a huge a** war reperations debt forced upon it by the allies from World War I, their morale was at an all time low... and I mean, they were in a big big depression with inflation being insane. Their country was weak, it was getting bullied by all sides.

The rise of Hitler was only a natural response, Germans have a tendency to seek a strong patriarchal government which takes care of its people. And that's what happened...

...America as of yet is still able to bully other people, and despite the fact we're alienating others, we're not in any need of radical changes that could sway american public opinion to another preemptive strike. Iraq... was a freak accident. Its not possible to use 9/11 as a reason again for war.

...but i could be wrong.

HJERMSTED

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:00 PM

There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:43 PM

Quote:
Well, if you know anything about history at all (which it sounds like you don't -- not trying to be mean, just honest), you know that the situation America is in today, both economically and politically -- is nowhere NEAR the situation Germany was in when Hitler began his rise to power.

did you even read my post..obviously not because if you had you would have read where I said our circumstances are not the same as Germany and I also said that histroy never repeats itself in exactly the same way...

I know alot about histroy.. I'm not trying to argue but have a discussion

(geez)

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:26 PM

The only folks who are scared of us living in anything remotely resembling to what this thread suggets are :

a) The extreme fringe nut case conspiracy loonies. These folks are always going to be around, sad to say. How quickly we as a country forget the nonsensical Y2K scare of just a few yrs ago. Yes, Y2K would hit and completely shut down the grid from coast to coast,and Bill Clinton would decalare himself Tzar of America as he orders Matial Law, suspends elections, suspends civil liberties, opens up concentration camps ( folks really did report seeing these being set up, if you recall ) ..the list was ENDLESS! Jan 1 rolled around, traffic lights, toasters, ATM's, coffee makers, etc..all worked. No, your credit card records weren't erased, so all those big $ items you thought you'd not have to pay off showed up on next months statement. Damnit.

b) The other group of folks who are quick to toss out the 'NAZI' cry are simply those who have no clue of history. By trying to compare what is going on today w/ what ocured back then, they not only are being reckless w/ the facts, they minimize the true oppression of what DID occur some 70yrs ago.

So, plaese spare us the 'chicken little ' cries that the sky is falling and we're sinking into a Fascist regiem. The last thing we need are more drama queens. Relax, live life and count the days 'till Serenity.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GEEZER

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

Sorry, but you missed it by 50 years or so. Look into the McCarthy hearings and the communist witch-hunt of the early '50s to see a better example of home-grown Nazism, complete with commies/pinkos/fellow travelers playing the whipping-boy role that the Jews had in Germany. Fortunately, we got over it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

WYDRAZ

Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:02 PM

I'm not a fan of Bush (or Kerry), and this is a bit off topic, but I had to respond to this thought:

Quote:
Originally posted by soundhack:

... This president seems to think there should be no end to tax cuts: Good times or bad, we should have tax cuts. Taken to its (absurd) conclusion, that would mean we have no tax at all. I hope everyone can agree that we can not have a government with no taxes at all.

In response to World War II, the US government began directly withholding income tax from wages on July 10, 1943. (Do a google search if you don't believe me.) It was supposed to be a temporary measure. What's "absured" is that is still exists.

Income tax can arguable be called illegal in America, but there you are. Before WWII, the governemt used other taxes -- Income tax is a double tax. They tax you when you earn it, and they tax you when you spend it.

Does that seem right to you?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:22 AM

Not totally pertinent to the question, THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE magazine sees such a threat in Bush that they have taken the unprecedented step of endorsing Kerry. Obviously, the see somehting very dangerous in the Bush administration. It's very long, so I'll condense it:

Kerry’s the One

By Scott McConnell

There is little in John Kerry’s persona or platform that appeals to conservatives...
But this election is not about John Kerry... It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush. To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. ... Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be.... The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy.... In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends... Bush has accomplished this by giving the U.S. a novel foreign-policy doctrine under which it arrogates to itself the right to invade any country it wants if it feels threatened. ... The hatred Bush has generated has helped immeasurably those trying to recruit anti-American terrorists—indeed his policies are the gift to terrorism that keeps on giving.

... Bush’s public performances plainly show him to be a man who has never read or thought much about foreign policy.... The record is one of an administration with a very small group of six or eight real decision-makers who were set on war from the beginning... and it is peculiar that one who was fired from the National Security Council in the Reagan administration for suspicion of passing classified material to the Israeli embassy and another who has written position papers for an Israeli Likud Party leader have become key players in the making of American foreign policy.

... The only way Americans will have a presidency in which neoconservatives and the Christian Armageddon set are not holding the reins of power is if Kerry is elected.

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:16 AM

Quote:
Nope, We arn't, sorry.

how can you be so sure, nothing stays the same thats the law of nature, I'm sure there were alot of Germans who said the same thing!!

Quote:
If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the creeping in of socialism, or something actually and currently relevant to the taking of YOUR freedoms. I don't know about you, but I'm still feeling a lot more oppresed by taxes and the fact I will pay in but never see a dime from Social Security than Iraq policy.

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

Socialism in this material driven society is the least of my concerns..its more facism thats rearing its ugly head , just look at all the Corporations who are controlling things

This isn't about hating the president, I presently don't hate Bush or the admistration, they scare me, unlike you I don't believe that this administration would be happy to step down if they loose, seeing as how they stole the 1rst election ..and I do believe it was stolen..and some of the very same tactics are still being used, but I'm guessing by your post your clueless about such things. and I don't need to imply anything I said exactly what I mean't to say..no need to imply!!

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:31 AM

Quote:
If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him. Its for finding terrorists. None of my rights have been taken away. I can still talk trash about the government, even though I work for them. .

yes I am referring to the Patriot ACT,, but thats my big problem with the Patriot ACT, its not going to effect any terrorist, its going to effect Americans, terrorist are going to do what they will and what they want, the laws are an encroachment on our freedoms..and they are a gateway to lead to other things

one thing I understand and that history has shown and proven, power is like a drug, the more someone has the more they want, it will start with the Patriot Act..but where will it end???

this is what we have to be aware of!!

Quote:
Until they start publicly beheading folk on the common for speaking out against the government, I think your still safe.

see this is what I'm afraid of, not to say that I think they'll behead people publicly, but does it have to get that far before we realize whats happening.

I think thats what happened with alot of Germans , they ingnored things until it got so bad they were afraid to do anything

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:51 AM

Quote:
I believe that the forces of totalitarianism have been making some serious inroads in the past couple of years. The disdain for intellectuals and the demonizing of the arts by the right-wing is very disturbing. The wholesale use of derision in lieu of logical argumentation by the right-wing at the highest levels of policy is fascistic. The prevalent notion that there is no actual truth out there--only spin; that all opinions amount to propaganda is a seminal fascist notion. The way Bush and Cheney & co. will say a thing and then a few months later deny ever having said it constitutes a willful disregard for reality and history. The perceived need for world military domination is something only fascists need. But the single greatest totalitarian trend in America today is that nearly half of the nation seems perfectly willing to go along. A fascist leader isn't gonna get very far unless people sign up to embrace their lies as truth and support their international adventurism in the name of peace and freedom.

yes it is unfortunate, that people seem to think its about hating the president..its not I've looked through this thread and I already see where they've brought up democrates and tit for tat....

I'm talking about whats happening now under this admistration, I understand that its very hard for some to even comtemplate America turning into a facist totalitarian like government, but if it does happen or something simular happens it will be those very people crying the loudest and asking themselves how did this happen!!

This current administration is creating their own reality, they obviously have a vision of what they want this nation to be, they are creating our future..a future that we have to live in

what people in this country seem to not realize is that we have alot of power we can too have a hand in creating what our future looks like, whats hard for me to believe that in a country as rich and self sustaining as ours that people are so ignorant..not just about things that go on in the world but even right here in our on country, we invaded Iraq and most Americans don't even know that Iraq is Mesopotamia , Summria, one the oldest high civilations, I just use that as an example

If we don't get off our butts and do something it doesn't matter if Bush is in office or not, our days as a Democracy will be numbered regardless!!

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:23 AM

Quote:
nope. Situation isn't anywhere close to Germany...

Germany was suffering from a huge a** war reperations debt forced upon it by the allies from World War I, their morale was at an all time low... and I mean, they were in a big big depression with inflation being insane. Their country was weak, it was getting bullied by all sides.

The rise of Hitler was only a natural response, Germans have a tendency to seek a strong patriarchal government which takes care of its people. And that's what happened...

...America as of yet is still able to bully other people, and despite the fact we're alienating others, we're not in any need of radical changes that could sway american public opinion to another preemptive strike. Iraq... was a freak accident. Its not possible to use 9/11 as a reason again for war.

...but i could be wrong.

I read this post an cringed for the obvious reasons. ( invading Iraq a freak accident )I have to admit that it sometimes baffles me that Americans and I too am an American can't see this happening to us..

It could happen here...Of course it wouldn't be exactly like Germany..thats for obvious reasons we aren't Germany and our circumstances aren't the same..but that doesn't mean that it won't happen here.

What goes up , will eventually come down, nothing remains the same nothing is constant, everything changes.

Yes your right when you say that America is still able to bully other countries, and because we are still able to do so, we the American people look on callously and arrogantly, Not all of us of course..

but whats going to happen when the day comes and it will come, when one of these countries we've bullied gets some Nuclear bombs that they can launch on us...

will we look on so arrogantly then!!...will we remain ignorant of the facts then will we sing the praises of an admistration like the current one, will be have Slogans like wanted dead or alive.

One day probably alot sooner then later with the way things are going one of these Countries, that we've bullied is going to whip our ass..every bully has its day..so we need to think long an hard about how we treat the world because we are a part of it

yeah its easy for us now..its easy to be ingnorant, but our attitude is going to be the end of us if we don't make some changes..not just our status in the world as a society..but our life!!

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:38 AM

Quote:
Higher taxes would make me not want to work as hard, as the bonus for working hard really wouldn't be worth the effort.

actually I wouldn't mind higher taxes if we had something to show for it like they do in countries such as Sweeden, those people pay high taxes , but they have some of the best living standards in the world they are highly educated, as long as you past your test universty is free, they have some of the best healthcare, they take great care of their ederly and children, yes they pay high taxes but their quality of life is superior

a country/ government is measured by how well it takes care of its people

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:41 AM

I find it all kinds of ironic that people will justify Bush's war on Iraq with Saddam Hussein's slim chances of maybe one day becoming a threat, but they aren't able to see the potential, the real threat which another four years of Bush poses to America and the rest of the world. We may be less fascistic today than Germany was in the 30's, but we wouldn't have as far to go. Hitler could only dream of the kind of military presence we enjoy today. Maybe absolute power in the hands of Americans won't corrupt us absolutely, but mightn't it corrupt us just a leettle bit? Even us?

The most disturbing thing to me in the comparison with Adolph is actually a contrast not a similarity: Hitler clearly, passionately hated the Jewish people, so he tried to eradicate them. The neo-cons on the other hand will kill tens of thousands of people just so they can make over Iraq as a capitalist utopia. The administration doesn't hate the Iraqis, the Iraqi people are just in the way. There's no hate, just utter dehumanizing greed.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:41 AM

It seems to me that the US isn't so much like Nazi Germany, but more like the 'Alliance' from that failed sci-fi/western series on fox a years back. Did any of you see that? It was pretty good.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It seems to me that the US isn't so much like Nazi Germany, but more like the 'Alliance' from that failed sci-fi/western series on fox a years back. Did any of you see that? It was pretty good.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Hey, SergeantX! Hey, you and I've been here since before that show was even cancelled, but I can't recall ever reading a thread being posted specifically to compare the modern United States with the Alliance of 500 years hence. Do you remember such a thread being posted? Sure, folks have made the comparison but has it been discussed at any length really? I remember maybe a few posts hijacking various other threads but nothing definitive. Am I just suffering a little cyber-amnesia?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:09 AM

I'm not sure. I may have started one actually. Or maybe I'm just thinking of threads where it came up. I know I've always been sympathetic to the view that the Alliance would have, if the series had continued, proven to be not the monolithic evil entity that Mal saw, but something more like the U.S.

I even remember an interview with Joss where this was discussed. He talked about how America does a lot of good in the world, but if you happen to be from Vietnam or any of the places where U.S. presence isn't so welcome, you might have a different view. He said Mal fought in Vietnam.

Anyway, yeah, I think it's been discussed, but you ought to go ahead and start a thread, if that's what you're suggesting. I've been coming here so long it sometimes seems like everything's been said, but I'm sure we can squeeze something more out of it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

But I also wonder how many German's basically thought the same thing
[snip]
so I'll ask the question again..are we living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany

Yes, in the 30's leading up to the war the "intellectuals" did know what was going on (aside from the Jews thing). They tried to warn people, but they didn't listen until it was too late.

You are living in a country very similar to Germany in the 30's. The rest of the world sees it, and we have no idea why the bulk of you guys don't.

As for the Partiot Act. It has taken away *many* rights and freedoms from you guys. One of them being "fair use" rights. Here's a nice quote:

"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790

If the US had more (a lot more) people like you, this wouldn't be happening. Then again, people who actually ask questions and listen are becoming rarer and rarer with each passing year. So, live long and reproduce.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

ROCKETJOCK

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LexiBlock:

It's how others think that matters. The majority of the world said "don't start this war" - but Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that!

A great many of us hate Bush for that. And roughly 50% of us voted against him in the last election, and plan to vote against him in the upcoming. So don't blame us for his bankrupt foreign policy.

To me, it's not so much that what he's doing in the middle east is evil so much as it is STUPID!.

We had the sympathy of much of the world after 9/11, including a great many countries that would normally have been neutral; that sympathy barely waivered when we invaded Afghanistan. Why?

Because that war was logically justifyable; the Taliban had clear connections to Bin Laden & company, and had provided training grounds and logistical support.

Had we chosen to consolidate our position in Afghanistan then, (while keeping a weather eye on Iraq, of course), we could have forged something solid, something to demonstrate true American ideals. Human Rights. Building for the common good. Universal sufferage.

Had Iraq eventually re-developed a credible WMD potential, we might have had support for an invasion then.

Instead, to advance his personal or professional agendas, Bush acted like an overeager teenager, and divided our forces.

It's not some much a question to me of "Did we have a reason to invade Iraq?" as "Did we have a pressing reason to invade Iraq right then?" Had Iraq been a credible short-term danger, the immediacy of the invasion may have been logically (and logistically) justifiable , but it became obvious early on that Bush wanted the second war for some other reason than any immediate threat posed by Iraq. He wanted this war now Now NOW!, like a spoiled brat in the "GI Joe" aisle of K-Bee Toys.

And I'm greatly afraid that if he's elected (notice I didn't say RE-elected), that he'll expand the conflict into further territory, trading America's long-term interests for short-term personal advantage, and justifying it all in the name of love of country.

I'm afraid that if he's elected, he'll find a way to suspend the constitution, run for a third term, or a fourth, changing the rules as he goes, all for our own good of course. Hell, he might even believe it. A fanatic, after all, is someone who doubles his speed as soon as he's lost sight of his goal.

So, to address the subject of this thread at last, not, I don't believe we're living in a modern day fascist Nazi Germany, at least not yet.

But we're close enough to the line to make me wake up in a cold sweat sometimes.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

LOSTINTHEVERSE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:53 AM

Piratejenny:

I personally prefer to have government play as little of a role as possible in my personal affairs. I believe in a hands off government, and I believe in people taking care of their own. Some people disagree and also live very well because of it, more power to them. If I didn't feel my life was of a suitable quality, I'd probably move to Sweden .

But the essence, in my mind anyway, of keeping more of my money is to save some aside for healthcare and education for my family.

As always, this is just one man's uninformed opinion.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

GHOULMAN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:33 PM

From PROJECT CENSORED.org

Law Enforcement Agencies Spy on Innocent Citizens
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/16.html
With virtually no media coverage or public scrutiny, a major reorganization of the US domestic law enforcement intelligence apparatus is well underway and, in fact, is partially completed. The effort to create a new national intelligence collection, analysis, and sharing system has frightening implications for privacy and other civil liberties.

In the aftermath of 9/11, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) with Department of Justice (DOJ) assistance decided to organize a summit in early 2002; the topic was “Criminal Intelligence Sharing: Overcoming Barriers to Enhance Domestic Security.” At the summit, a select group of 100 “criminal intelligence experts” and VIPs from local, state, and federal agencies—including the military—formulated what came to be known as the “National Criminal Intelligence Sharing Plan” (NCISP).

The IACP summit report calls for the creation of a “Criminal Intelligence Coordinating Council” (CICC). The Global Intelligence Working Group became operational under the umbrella of John Ashcroft’s Department of Justice (DOJ) as the first incarnation of the CICC in the fall of 2002.

Go to the website for the whole article...

MANIACNUMBERONE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:37 PM

I think that Tash is a little bit Nazi. He won't let me watch the Buffy/Angel dvd's out of order. How controlling is that?

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

HARDAN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:06 PM

I haven't read the whole thread but i find the topic very interesting because I've discussed the very same topic a few weeks ago with some friends.

As you maybe know in europe is the attitude for the US is mostly more negative than negative. I always try to be as objective as possible and don't see things in a such radical way as my friends which say bush is a terrorist himself ecetera ecetera...

But as we compared the present US with Germany in the 30's we agreed that one thing is common. The Patriotism. When I see around europe i don't find a country were patriotism is as strong as in America. Not even the UK

I think most people are proud of their country (i am proud of being Swiss) but they are also very critical about it.

I think it's still a trauma of the nazi-time were we had the people blindly following a man. I mean you have to see that Hitler did some very good things (from a german view in that time). He brought the country out of a huge crisis to the strongest force in europe. The people trusted him and followed him to their doom.

And I think we get (here in europe through our media) a similar picture of the US. We see a Britney Spears who sais: "We should trust our president no matter what". We see every house has an american flag in their garden. We don't understand that (I would feel stupid to have a swiss flag on my house). I mean america has its Justification for it, it's the most powerful and influental country on this planet. But we miss the critizism.

I know that there is critizism (towards bush etc.) but it seems that many people don't show it because they are think it would be bad for their country, because its "unpatriotic". (I don't know how you see it but thats my impression).

-----------------------------
Yes there are Fireflyfans all over the world. Even in little switzerland.

btw. sorry for my bad english

CONNORFLYNN

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:27 PM

Hehe..Hardan, your grasp of english is better then most who use it as their primary language.

Fortunately in the US..the majority of folks don't follow a leader blindly. Though there have been some instances of late where it would seem like it. Also, here in the US there is a daily barage of criticism for Bush (much of it deserved), in general there is a lot of criticism for all our politicians (the slimey bastiches that they are) and that ultimately is not viewed as unpatriotic.

There is a fine line that is crossed on occasion when it comes to Patriotism in the US. Basically, in my view it's similar to family problems. Every country to a degree can be looked upon as a large family. Even if we are doing something wrong, if someone says or does something against us, many times we all (in some fashion or another..right or wrong) bristle in defense. Especially when an outsider speaks against us. The same can be said for those who are citizens of our country who go abroad and speak badly about our country. Call it the "dirty laundry syndrome" hehe. A good example would be the Dixie Chicks..many took offense to Natalie bad-mouthing our president in another country during war-time, because many feel our problems are our problems and not something to be aired publicly in another country (especially when it comes to financial gain LOL).

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardan:

But as we compared the present US with Germany in the 30's we agreed that one thing is common. The Patriotism. When I see around europe i don't find a country were patriotism is as strong as in America. Not even the UK

I don't think that you mean patriotism. I'm a patriotic Canadian, but wouldn't even think to do most of the things that the americans consider "patriotic." I really think that you meant nationalistic, which would be the proper term to describe what goes on down there *shutter*

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:22 PM

Quote:
we're clearly such bullies for shutting down the torture rooms in Iraq

Not to fan the flames of this argument too much, but I just wanted to point out that the torture rooms weren't actually shut down - they were just re-opened under new management.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

DIETCOKE

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:00 PM

Tsk...You really think so little of your fellow Americans?

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
Tsk...You really think so little of your fellow Americans?

....hmmm well, besides the fact thay keep electing idiots for leaders, they allowed Firefly to fall by the way side! I might forgive my fellow citizens for the leader thing, but dammit, cancelling Firefly was injustice plain and simple. Guess I'm a little biased.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

PIRATEJENNY

Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LostInTheVerse:
Piratejenny:

I personally prefer to have government play as little of a role as possible in my personal affairs. I believe in a hands off government, and I believe in people taking care of their own. Some people disagree and also live very well because of it, more power to them. If I didn't feel my life was of a suitable quality, I'd probably move to Sweden .

But the essence, in my mind anyway, of keeping more of my money is to save some aside for healthcare and education for my family.

As always, this is just one man's uninformed opinion.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

I believe that their needs to be a balance between government and freedom, I don't want the government dictating to me my every move, thats one of the reasons why I don't want Bush and his gang back in office

But we pay taxes, I feel that there are some things that the government can do more effciently and cheaper, I also feel that a government because its our money has a responssibilty to see that the people in the country are well cared for this is why I admire country's like Sweeden and the Netherlands..for a country to do well it has to have a balance of both socialism and capitalism, I think those countries I speak of are good examples

In a country as rich in natural resources and as self sustaining as ours, its a shame that we have people that are homeless and hungry.. without healthcare, its a shame that ederly people have to choose between eating and paying for medication, or loosing their homes if they are fortuante enough to have one because they can't pay the property taxes..etc..etc.. the list just goes on an on, its a shame that in certain parts of this country in every city that people live in conditions that are close to third world..it doesn't have to be that way nor should it.. a country is measured by its people..what does it say about us that people in a rich country such as ours live like that...

Our education in this system is out dated and need to be resturctured, its a joke, is it any wonder people are so ignorant in this country..we can do better we have the resources to do so much better and yet we don't

its amazing to me how this country has shelled out billions to go war on people, but they won't do it for education.

I'm happy and glad for you that you have healthcare and have money to put aside for your children's education..

but alot of people in this country aren't so fortunate..as has been stated many times most people even people living in nice nighorhoods and who drive nice cars, are only one or two paychecks away from being homeless.

Because we pay taxes we should all have something to show for it, we should all benifit from the money that we give to our Public servants,

PIRATEJENNY

Sunday, October 31, 2004 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

I had been wanting to respond to this post but due to my busy life I haven't been able until now

I think this is a very real concern, people need to take a close look at whats been happening to our prison system, as you've stated the reason why prisons are so full is because most of the people in them are in for non violent crimes such as drugs etc, (selling using), and they are also being given longer sentences for these offences

Corporations are buying up prisons ( surprise surprise) , because its cheap labor, I don't have all the details but a friend of mine was telling me something recently about how Laura Bush is heading up something that has to due with prison labor,

I think this is grave indication of what direction this country is heading in...

you don't have to be sitting in a think tank to know when the ecomny gets bad, choices are limtited... most poor people either join the miltary, or steal

so its a win win situation for the facist, and if they are helping to make laws to make such conditions ripe and tailor them to their needs then so much the better

I can easily see our Prisons becoming full blown concentration camps...its predictable..its already in the stages to being just that!!

but this is a huge concern because, I can see them in the future arresting someone for stealing a bottle of asprin or a loaf of bread and sentencing them to 5/6 years of hard labor..just to keep a steady source of slave labor

Our prisons are already heading in the direction of cocentration camps, the horrifying thing about it is the people in them the punishment does not fit the crime

WADDLEDOODLE

Monday, November 1, 2004 2:11 AM

No.

Have you ever been to Germany? Spoken with Germans? Cracked a history book?

You're obviously hysterical.

My goodness...

You ask a question like that but offer no points of fact. I'm sorry to have to explain to you that the United States government has a responsibilty to it's citizens. Period. I don't pay taxes to fund public works in Finland. The American government has a responsibilty to protect it's citizens. Period. Since liberty has given us the the greatest nation on earth, we're exporting liberty abroad. You might think that's true, but I'm guessing there's not much that will change your mind. By out actions in World War two, when we declared war on Germany, despite NOT having been attacked by German. Why didn't we just focus on the Japanese?

You approach the subject with pure emotion rather than reason. Is the government watching YOU? Have you been taken out of your bed at night and thrown into a gulag? Are you forced to join any organizations or face peril? Are you able to dissent without threat of reprisal? Any Kerry supporters attacked in the news lately? If anything, I've read/heard/seen LOTS of Bush/Cheney signs getting ripped down. Lots of Bush/Cheney Campaign HQs broken into.

Please, for the love of god, read something other than NAOM CHOMSKY. Try Thomas Jefferson.
Watch something other than Fahreneit 9/11, try FahrenHYPE 9/11

Try to be a little more open and understanding.

WADDLEDOODLE

Monday, November 1, 2004 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

I had been wanting to respond to this post but due to my busy life I haven't been able until now

I think this is a very real concern, people need to take a close look at whats been happening to our prison system, as you've stated the reason why prisons are so full is because most of the people in them are in for non violent crimes such as drugs etc, (selling using), and they are also being given longer sentences for these offences

Corporations are buying up prisons ( surprise surprise) , because its cheap labor, I don't have all the details but a friend of mine was telling me something recently about how Laura Bush is heading up something that has to due with prison labor,

I think this is grave indication of what direction this country is heading in...

you don't have to be sitting in a think tank to know when the ecomny gets bad, choices are limtited... most poor people either join the miltary, or steal

so its a win win situation for the facist, and if they are helping to make laws to make such conditions ripe and tailor them to their needs then so much the better

I can easily see our Prisons becoming full blown concentration camps...its predictable..its already in the stages to being just that!!

but this is a huge concern because, I can see them in the future arresting someone for stealing a bottle of asprin or a loaf of bread and sentencing them to 5/6 years of hard labor..just to keep a steady source of slave labor

Our prisons are already heading in the direction of cocentration camps, the horrifying thing about it is the people in them the punishment does not fit the crime

Hard labor? LOL.

What slave labor? The majority of criminals SIT in jail. Maybe they SHOULD be building our roads...then they might think twice about "stealing aspirin". About your stealing bread and aspirin; I'll bet you I can find, oh...I don't know....100,000 other cases involving rape, murder, theft etc. So don't pretend that evey criminal was just hungry and had a headache. No one said the criminal justice system was perfect, but it's not nazi germany.

Our prisions are concentration camps?????

Really. Well, enjoy your Koolaid.

CONNORFLYNN

Monday, November 1, 2004 1:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
Tsk...You really think so little of your fellow Americans?

....hmmm well, besides the fact thay keep electing idiots for leaders, they allowed Firefly to fall by the way side! I might forgive my fellow citizens for the leader thing, but dammit, cancelling Firefly was injustice plain and simple. Guess I'm a little biased.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

ROFLMAO..thanks Sarge, that was the best political point I've seen on these boards in awhile:) I say we start the impeachment process now..especially for all the politicians who own Fox stock hehehe.

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
No.

Have you ever been to Germany? Spoken with Germans? Cracked a history book?

You're obviously hysterical.

My goodness...

You ask a question like that but offer no points of fact. I'm sorry to have to explain to you that the United States government has a responsibilty to it's citizens. Period. I don't pay taxes to fund public works in Finland. The American government has a responsibilty to protect it's citizens. Period. Since liberty has given us the the greatest nation on earth, we're exporting liberty abroad. You might think that's true, but I'm guessing there's not much that will change your mind. By out actions in World War two, when we declared war on Germany, despite NOT having been attacked by German. Why didn't we just focus on the Japanese?

You approach the subject with pure emotion rather than reason. Is the government watching YOU? Have you been taken out of your bed at night and thrown into a gulag? Are you forced to join any organizations or face peril? Are you able to dissent without threat of reprisal? Any Kerry supporters attacked in the news lately? If anything, I've read/heard/seen LOTS of Bush/Cheney signs getting ripped down. Lots of Bush/Cheney Campaign HQs broken into.

Please, for the love of god, read something other than NAOM CHOMSKY. Try Thomas Jefferson.
Watch something other than Fahreneit 9/11, try FahrenHYPE 9/11

Try to be a little more open and understanding.

This is so sad, you missed the whole point of this thread and my orginal post!!

LOL!! hysterical your cracking me up!!

just read through this thread, there are plenty of facts ... and besides, I didn't necessarily want people to do a cut an paste of facts they found off the internet , I want to have a dicussion, viscral emotion serves well I wanted to know what people are thinking and feeling in their guts and in there hearts..not what they heard a talking head say..on t.v..or what they read in some book..No this might be a foreign concept to You personally, and to the cut and pasters out there

but I'm interested in whats coming from people their own opinions feelings and thoughts

I find it even more funny because I hadn't read all of your post when I started to respond, and I see towards the end you say I approach this thread with Emotion( which is what I was aiming for)..as for reason well I'm very reasonable..its great to ask questions, questions need and should be asked

As for your post you didn't answer the question, actually besides accusing me of not reading certain books and watching Farenheight 911 you went off on a tangent about Finland , taxes, and spreading Liberty in the world, ummmm

my advice to you, calm down read the thread , look inside your own head and try to come up with a coherant response.

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 5:35 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Hard labor? LOL.

What slave labor? The majority of criminals SIT in jail. Maybe they SHOULD be building our roads...then they might think twice about "stealing aspirin". About your stealing bread and aspirin; I'll bet you I can find, oh...I don't know....100,000 other cases involving rape, murder, theft etc. So don't pretend that evey criminal was just hungry and had a headache. No one said the criminal justice system was perfect, but it's not nazi germany.

Our prisions are concentration camps?????

Again read the post, read it very very slowly if you have to..because obviously your clueless about what we are talking about..Once again you failed to see the point

the post wasn't about crimnals, I'm sure most people don't have a problem with harden violent crimnals doing hard labor.

No the point of the thread was a discussion on how are prison system is being used as a source of slave labor and how through privatisation how this could be used against citazens in the future, how laws can be manipulated and changed to feed a steady source of slave labor..hence the punishment not fitting the crime..in some instances this is already true which is why you have a disportiontate of African Americans and Latinos in the prison system( the majority of which are in for non violent crimes)

the whole point was should someone who steals a bottle of asprin get the same amount of time as someone who rapes or murders

its really kind of sad that I had to point all of this out to you( by choice of course)...I don't even care at this point if I come off as condesending you deserve it.

I don't have all the answers and I'm no genius, but I know how to have a discussion... and I think its time that we as a country demanded more from people..have your own opinions have your own thoughts (please..by all means) but at least know the context in which something is put out and respond accordingly and if you don't know ask..

If your interested...and (I don't really think you are) but why don't you find out about the Prison system and Corportions, because thats what we're bascially talking about

but maybe I can help you a little bit..just a little bit

its not hard at all ...its just a way of thinking, some people can predict things..and not because they are physic, but because they can see whats happening today and apply it to tommrow

if you see something not right or bad happening and nothing is being done to stop it..its not that hard to figure out the most likely outcome..really its just common sense.

histroy itself is also an indictor, those who don't pay attention or learn from histroy is doomed to repeat it in some form.

Knowlege is power, their are alot of things going on in this country right now, that are an indicator of where our country is most likely headed if nothing is done, the good thing is , those of us who can see it or sense it can change it hopefully can use that knowlege to make some changes.

The only thing that really only makes America a great country is that we the people have the power to make changes with our vote..( hopefully thats still true )

knowlege is power /Ignorance is a slave

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 7:51 AM

Quote:
You are living in a country very similar to Germany in the 30's. The rest of the world sees it, and we have no idea why the bulk of you guys don't.

Believe it or not most Americans are kept woefully ignorant, news in this country is very localized..at least its become that way..something big could be happening in one state, the other stated won't know about it, and our media outlets have become so conglomorate that it really can no longer be said that we have a free press.

You can find out more about whats going on in the country if you listen to the radio,..or go on the internet..but most people in this country don't do that they watch t.v

also if you take into consideration our failing public education system which isn't really set up to teach or learn anything but mostly memorization, also in the public school system thinking is highly discouraged..its all about conformity and memorization..which is one of the reasons why ignorance is so prevalant in this country now

also the fact that most family's in this country are either both working or the single parent is working a full time job or two jobs to support their family they don't have alot of time to spend finding out the facts if it means searching them out( America is the instant gratifcation country) the majority of Americans are tired.

Also too, compared to alot of other countries who have a long rich histroy of politcal upheals etc..to look back on for indicators and guidence, America is a relatively young country ..and don't have the histroy to rely on

and too if you take the fact that just about every American from the time of their birth is told that America is a great country, A rightious country, the Leader of the free World and that we have the best government system in the world, its hard for most to believe that their government would truly harm them or intentionally harm them, for the most part most Americans are pretty naive

Thats just some of the main reason why american's can't see!!

WADDLEDOODLE

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 3:33 PM

I'm sorry, but I really didn't read your response. As much as I'd like to debate whatever points your making, I've decided to remove politics from Firefly. I'll go to the political boards and express myself.

Why am I being "so ignorant" do you wonder?

I had a member of this board say that the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11 were statistically less important than people dying of AIDs daily. We all can agree that AIDs is a horrible disease that strikes like any virus, it kills indiscriminately. The terrorism that killed our friends and family on 9/11 was intentional premeditated murder. It wasn't a virus...it was willful murder based on a hatred of our religion. To be clear, when I say "our religion" I mean all flavors of Christians, Jews, (genuine non-wahabist) Muslims, Hindus, Atheists as well, since the belief in no god is a death sentence to Muslim extremists.

America is the greatest country on Earth. Simply because we are a refuge for the world. Here, we are all free. Here, we all matter, regardless of color or creed. You may believe in some popular stereotype that people like me are racist, but it's false. Ever American is my brother or sister, no matter who they are.

I'm a conservative. I believe in America. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm pro-responsibility regarding abortion. I believe in lower taxes, I think the Government should do more with less money than the citizenry. I believe the Governments only obligation is to defend the Constitution and our Liberty, and shouldn't meddle in our daily lives. I believe in Americans of all colors and creeds. I have resonable debates with liberal friends who are patriots in my book. They, unlike some of the craven filth I've read out here are reasonable and responsible people who still love this country for all of it's strengths. They don't hate nor think we conservatives are any less important nor patriotic then they are.

You may hate America...the Constitution grants you that right. However, with these rights granted to you comes responsibility. You are obligated to make this a better country by working with your neighbors, by working for the common good. You may hate America but it welcomed your ancestors with open arms when they fled religious persecution and petty dictators. Find the good in our country and embrace it. Cherish it. Make it grow. But comparing the United States to Nazi Germany is an irresponsible action and the product of a small pseudo-intellectual mind that hasn't wondered far from campus. Rather than toss about such charges go out and start a business, grow a family, work for a charity, help a veteran, find some good in this country that has given so much through it's 228 years, freeing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from real fascism and totalitarianism.

So...here endth my sermon. Take from it what you will. Don't bother ripping it apart and dissecting it in some attempt to change me. It won't happen.

God bless you and yours, the troops defending our liberty and the United States of America.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 6:50 PM

@Piratejenny:
I believe that WaddleDoodle is one of those that people that you're talking about.

I am that person that (s)he is talking about and that is exactly what i did *not* do/say. I believe that this person must be functionally illiterate as what I was getting at was clear and reiterated and clarified (more so) in another post. Or at least (s)he is letting emotion get in the way and reading what (s)he wants to read instead of reading what I typed.

While in San Francisco I visited a Discovery Channel Store. In it they had a book, I can't remember the exact title, that was titled something like "The lies that they told you in highschool and the truth about them."

I really believe that WaddleDoodle should buy and read this, or a like book, as (s)he seems to be pretty deluded about the history of her/his own country. Just another product of that education system, eh

But on another point, Canada is a quite young country as well and has *far* less problems than the states.

I would conjecture that it has a lot to do with the isolationist ways of the US. Canada has continued its relations with the rest of the world and has participated in the intellectual developments therein. Whereas the US seems to think itself too great to have to "lower" itself to such matters.

Why can't people see that the middle ground is where things should be? That this is the most stable place to be? I guess everyone must have there way. And with the US general attitude of, it's my way or the highway... Well, look where its lead.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
I'm sorry, but I really didn't read your response. As much as I'd like to debate whatever points your making, I've decided to remove politics from Firefly. I'll go to the political boards and express myself.

Why am I being "so ignorant" do you wonder?

I had a member of this board say that the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11 were statistically less important than people dying of AIDs daily. We all can agree that AIDs is a horrible disease that strikes like any virus, it kills indiscriminately. The terrorism that killed our friends and family on 9/11 was intentional premeditated murder. It wasn't a virus...it was willful murder based on a hatred of our religion. To be clear, when I say "our religion" I mean all flavors of Christians, Jews, (genuine non-wahabist) Muslims, Hindus, Atheists as well, since the belief in no god is a death sentence to Muslim extremists.

America is the greatest country on Earth. Simply because we are a refuge for the world. Here, we are all free. Here, we all matter, regardless of color or creed. You may believe in some popular stereotype that people like me are racist, but it's false. Ever American is my brother or sister, no matter who they are.

I'm a conservative. I believe in America. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm pro-responsibility regarding abortion. I believe in lower taxes, I think the Government should do more with less money than the citizenry. I believe the Governments only obligation is to defend the Constitution and our Liberty, and shouldn't meddle in our daily lives. I believe in Americans of all colors and creeds. I have resonable debates with liberal friends who are patriots in my book. They, unlike some of the craven filth I've read out here are reasonable and responsible people who still love this country for all of it's strengths. They don't hate nor think we conservatives are any less important nor patriotic then they are.

You may hate America...the Constitution grants you that right. However, with these rights granted to you comes responsibility. You are obligated to make this a better country by working with your neighbors, by working for the common good. You may hate America but it welcomed your ancestors with open arms when they fled religious persecution and petty dictators. Find the good in our country and embrace it. Cherish it. Make it grow. But comparing the United States to Nazi Germany is an irresponsible action and the product of a small pseudo-intellectual mind that hasn't wondered far from campus. Rather than toss about such charges go out and start a business, grow a family, work for a charity, help a veteran, find some good in this country that has given so much through it's 228 years, freeing HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from real fascism and totalitarianism.

So...here endth my sermon. Take from it what you will. Don't bother ripping it apart and dissecting it in some attempt to change me. It won't happen.

God bless you and yours, the troops defending our liberty and the United States of America.

all I can say to you, is I think its a good idea if you refrain from these topics if you can't, distinguish whats being said..I don't mean that flippantly..but for your own sake,

this thread and my post in particular had nothing to due with 911 or people dying of Aids, it wasn't even about terrorist, there is nothing stopping you from starting a thread on these topics if you feel so strongly about it and you should do that..instead of coming into another thread in a very arrogant way( it only makes you seem bad)

at least we can agree that we love this country, thats why I started this thread, because I want whats best for myself and my country men...

I don't really know if America is a great Country, I think it is a country with the potential to be great..and I think there are some great things about it..but I also think we have alot of work to do and we can always strive for better we should strive for greatness

unfortuantly the grea

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@Piratejenny:
I believe that WaddleDoodle is one of those that people that you're talking about.

I am that person that (s)he is talking about and that is exactly what i did *not* do/say. I believe that this person must be functionally illiterate as what I was getting at was clear and reiterated and clarified (more so) in another post. Or at least (s)he is letting emotion get in the way and reading what (s)he wants to read instead of reading what I typed.

While in San Francisco I visited a Discovery Channel Store. In it they had a book, I can't remember the exact title, that was titled something like "The lies that they told you in highschool and the truth about them."

I really believe that WaddleDoodle should buy and read this, or a like book, as (s)he seems to be pretty deluded about the history of her/his own country. Just another product of that education system, eh

But on another point, Canada is a quite young country as well and has *far* less problems than the states.

I would conjecture that it has a lot to do with the isolationist ways of the US. Canada has continued its relations with the rest of the world and has participated in the intellectual developments therein. Whereas the US seems to think itself too great to have to "lower" itself to such matters.

Why can't people see that the middle ground is where things should be? That this is the most stable place to be? I guess everyone must have there way. And with the US general attitude of, it's my way or the highway... Well, look where its lead.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

being a product of the public education system, I think I can speak with authority on how bad it is, even at the time, I knew I was being brainwashed, I actually use to skip class and go to the Library..

If you asked a question, especially on the accuracy of something , you either got no answer, or something vague, or that you couldn't discuss it because it wasn't part of the curriculum..your not taught or encourage to think in the public school system..your taught to memorize and unfortuantely alot of the things that you memorize aren't true or is a half true, Its just really sad that people aren't encouraged to think, or ask questions, government is not even taught until the 12th grade and now its considered an elective..so is it any wonder that most people are clueless

America is isolated, from most of the world, , we've become not curious about the rest of the world..Its all about us..and everyone else is an after thought if they are given any consideration at all..so is it any wonder that most Americans don't know whats going on in their own country let alone the rest of the world..we're just not intellectually curious alot of us just don't care!! did you know that a study was done, and alot of American's couldn't even find Canada on the map..didn't know that it was the country above us!!lol sad but true..most Americans don't even know all the names of the states.

ask some Americans about Canada and they think your talking about ginerale soda.!!

Its true about our attitude, we are the greatest Country in the World you eat our dust attitude is going to be the end of us. and its just not true..sure we are one of the stongest miltary powers in the world....but how long is that going to last...its only a matter of time..

I know Canada isn't perfect..but you guys have at least tried to provide your countrymen with medical.(.and I can tell you) haveing some medical care is better then not having none at all no matter how flawed

and its going to be a hard blow to American egos when we can't huff and puff ourselves up...so many Americans wrap themselves up in the flag because yes to some degree they are deluded America isn't as great as we would all love to think or see ourselves unfortuantly its just not true.. I wish it was, but its not!!and when the time comes when the rose

JHARROD

Friday, February 4, 2005 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LexiBlock:
That's because you are living with your head up your ass, or only watching reality shows all day while stuffing your face.

If you read something else than the funny pages, you'd have read about case after case where people have been abused and violated. Do some googleing if you really want to be enlighented (which of course you wont, better to put your fingers in your ears and hum really loud)

Whoa there fella'. I don't recall insulting you, but it seems that you feel the need to insult my intelligence. To be honest, I spend too much goddamn time working, so I can't go "googling" for news. I read the newspaper, and thats the news that works for me.

And grow up. Next time someone disagrees with you, try not to insult them. ;)

"They tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is on occassion hilarious"

ANGELHARP42

Saturday, February 5, 2005 12:55 AM

This is my first post, so be gentle!
We are closer than we may think. Germany's huge war reparations debt tore them apart, resulting in depression, inflation, and general poverty. We are spending literally hundreds of billions of dollars on this war. That is hard to wrap my head around. It bring to mind the amount of surplus we had amassed during Clinton's years. Now we are in debt up to our eyeballs. How are we going to pay for it? The next few years are gonna be tough. I have already felt the crush of the economy. My husband was recently laid off from a crappy factory job he had to take because what are ya gonna do with a Bachelor's in History? Hang it on the wall, next to my Sociology degree. Dust it, perhaps. Le sigh. Well anyway, he lost his crap job THE VERY DAY he was to get benefits and a raise. He now has a crap job at another factory, still no benefits, but at least it's a check. Unemployment is so high here, there is no limit to the number of people lined up to take your job should you be so audacious as to ask for health benefits. My state has also dismantled the state healthcare, which means that my husband, 4 year-old, and I have no chance of getting health care. I sit here and type with blinding pain in my ears because of a ruptured eardrum. My health department can't see me for another week. This is reality. This is what the current administration has done. Public schools are laughable. But add the cost of private school, healthcare, saving for retirement (ha!), etc. There is nothing, less than nothing, left.
That's the economic side. Regarding prisoners just sitting in a jail cell, have you ever heard of Parchman? It's the state penitentiary in Mississippi, where I'm from. It is hellish. It has no walls, where are ya gonna go? It is a labor camp. The prisoners work every day, all day, on farms owned by the government and by private companies. Parchman is the prison that the movie Life is based on. Pretty scary stuff. It's still there, and it still looks the same.
Regarding intellectuals, you DO realize our dear pres was only a C student. And proud of it.
Btw, he didn't win this election. Stolen again. The fact that the absentee military votes were in debate is horrendous. I have friends over there, fighting and dying for a country where their votes aren't even counted. Sickens me. Also, a large portion of the voters HERE were forced to stand in line for ridiculous lengths of time. Making someone stand in line for 8 hours to vote is disenfranchisement. Period.
Canada. Lookin' better and better!

CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, February 6, 2005 3:24 AM

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

Excellent question, PirateJenny.
Whatreallyhappened.com made a similar comparison here: The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://whatreallyhappened.com/reich

I love America too. It is because I love America that I do not want to follow unquestioningly under the thrall of patriotism. We Americans are not above the sort of blind obedience the Germans engaged in during the Third Reich. A Yale psychologist (Stanley Milgram) conducted a series of experiments in the 60's/70's called "Obedience," which demonstrated Americans, like Germans (and as it turns out, like people all over the world), tend to do as they are told, even when they are instructed to kill another person. Here is an account of the experiment.
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/milgram_perils_authority_197
4.html

My feeling is, yes it can happen here. We need to be ever vigilant of our leaders and of ourselves that it does not.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

THEMOSTGRACIOUSLOSER

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 2:10 AM

There are those who will be quick to dismiss such a question as the paranoid delusions of a hard-core letfy, but take a read at Patrick Buchanan's 'The American Conservative' Magazine, for an opinion from the right-of-center:

http://amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html

I'm not ready to say we are running headlong in that direction, but, as the author points out, there are some very disturbing tendencies among some segments of the populace and way too many of our leaders (not to mention the chickenshit media).

Humbly Yours,
The Most Gracious Loser
"The Virtuous Life is its own punishment" - TMGL 2001
"Respect the cruller. Tame the doughnut!" - XH 2001
"What's the ugliest part of your body?
... I think it's your MIND" FZ 1968

CANTTAKESKY

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 4:53 AM

Most Gracious Loser,

Well written article. Thanks for sharing. It is thought provoking to hear similar concerns coming from varying points on the political spectrum: liberal, libertarian, conservative. Regardless of political ideology, many of us feel it. Something's not right.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:21 PM

try this :

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1843

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:28 PM

Ah yes, Left Wing Propaganda. They don't even try anymore.

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 7:08 AM

This article was really good the comparisons are so striking they if you subsittuted the word German for Americans they could almost be talking about us

Quote:
The reality was that the German people, as individuals, had lost their courage. The German government preferred it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But the German people didn't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding individual courage, in the form of a government gone wrong, the German people simply pretended that the situation did not exist. And in that simple self-deception lay the ruin of an entire nation and the coming of the second World War. .

I think this is the perfect discription of the typical American ..and I think are lack of courage and concern is going to lead us down basically the same road as the Germans

Quote:
When the Reichstag burned down, most Germans simply refused to believe suggestions that the fire had been staged by Hitler himself. They were afraid to. But so trapped were the Germans by their belief in their own bravery that they willed themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes, so that they could nod in agreement with Der Fuhrer while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoided the one situation which most required real courage; to stand up to Hitler's lies and deceptions. .

Some people think that the Bush and his administration is directly responssible for 9/11 hard for some to even comtemplate...

Quote:
When Hitler requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under German law, but powers Hitler claimed he needed to have to deal with the "terrorists", the German people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, agreed. The temporary powers were conferred, and once conferred lasted until Germany itself was destroyed.

this sounds so familar homeland security, changing of the constitution and the so called terror threat

Quote:
When Hitler staged a phony invasion from Poland, the vast majority of the German people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to Hitler's deceptions, did not question why Poland would have done something so stupid, and found themselves in a war. .

Iraq anyone...wasn't it the Taliban in Afganistan the was suppose to be responssible for 9/11..so why did we go to Iraq

Quote:
But Hitler knew he ruled a nation of cowards, and knew he had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards could fight and win..

yep and Iraq is certainly a war we can win , they have no army...just people rebelling to get the the attackers out of their country!!

Quote:
As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celibrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes...

hmmmm wasn't Bush TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year
the simularities are staggering

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 8:07 AM

hello angelharp42

I read your post and felt your pain..your concerns are the same as most Americans, lack of health care there is no such thing as job security anymore thats a fact, there is only job mobilty and hopefully if your lucky you have the skills to keep you one step ahead and on the move

your husband probably got laid off from his awful factory job because he was about to get benifits, this is common policy now days most companies will find something to fire you over or lay you off if your due to get benifits

welcome to the brave new world..I think most people feel it even the ones who want to stay delusional who want to stay sealed in their bubble..somehing is not right its not the common not right its something more and some us can't articulate it but we feel it deep down and strong, and truth be told we are probably powerless to stop it. but we can recognize that something is not right and try to brace ourselves and cushion ourself from the blow..the only way we can do it is by being aware and knowing whats coming because pretending that its not happening isn't going to help

Its time to give up the Myth America isn't really a Democracy it never really has been,..this country has always been based on Ecomomy Capitalism...and a Capitalist society always needs a low wage worker or slave labor which is how America got to become so rich in the 1rst place..if it had not been for the New Deal social programs and Unionization of Workers in this Country at the beginning of this 20th century..Capitalism in this country probably wouldn't be here today at the turn of the century things were pretty bad and that was during a time when most Americans didn't live in urban centers and were pretty self sustaining as indiviuals and family units thats no longer the case now with the destruction of social programs we are turning into what America was at the beginning of the century but without the fringe benfits so to speak.. most people don't own their own homes or farms most people live in Urban centers and depend on the state of the economy for their lively hood..slowly but surely alot of us are beginning to feel the lack of humanity in our government system..some of us are feeling it sooner then others but I have no doubt that its going to touch all but the very rich..thats how its set up thats how Capitalism succeeds..the American Dream for most Americans is just that a dream ..the reality for most of us is being drones and if where lucky making it to the middle class..( middle class breeds contentment ) which is fast on its way to becoming exstinct..soon there will be only the poor and the rich..and thats when even Capitalism will come to an end. Inorder for Capitalism to succeed people have to have money to consume the poorer people become the less money they will have to spend to buy goods companies will go out of business as a result and we will be something else..facist America??? Slaves ..a Militarized society...all 3 wrapped into one.

its an old story..really but its a new one for most of us..try and be brave and face the new world thats coming our way!!

thanks for letting me wax based on whats happening in our country this the only outcome that I can see!!

KENADAK

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 2:19 PM

5 bush hate-speech posts in an hour... You are a busy little hate monger...

I don't agree with bush on a lot of levels...
I do agree with his economic policy.

being a small business owner (read NOT BIG BUSINESS) I feel his actions make my company more viable and in turn more capable to hire "you poor common folk"

please understand that America is based on a constitutional republic: The government is based on rules set forth by the founding fathers. Your Socialized medical, Socialized retirement, and Socialized society is not in our constitution.

and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there!

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 4:22 PM

Piratejenny, you talk a lot of dark, mean stuff. Be more like some of the others who feel no need to understand facts or history or junk like that.
Seriously, though.I remember bullies in junior high, sometimes they beat up a jerk who deserved it, but more often they beat up someone weaker to take thier lunch money.My point is that it starts small.And people in this country concentrate on big things...the destruction of the World Trade center...the capture of Saddam...and they don't see the cold hungy child wondering why it's parents are gone (and why should they? It's not thier fault!). Truth can be unsettling; it's better to be simple-minded.
On a lighter note, quotes from movies and tv for the people who need entertainment with thier illumination:
"Im here to fight for truth, justice and the American way." " you'll end up fighting every elected official in this country." -SUPERMAN
"The only thing that counts in the end is power. Naked merciless force!" -BENETH THE PLANET OF THE APES
"Fear will keep the local systems in line..." -STAR WARS
"Now America's just another broke ex-superpower, lookin' for a handout and wondering why." -DARK ANGEL
"Governments are just for gettin' in a mans' way." -FIREFLY

My heart goes out to Angelharp42. Thanks to her for making it real.

Chrisisall

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, March 9, 2005 11:02 PM

My German wife states that although there isn't an exact match between Nazi Germany and the US today, there are enough parallels to be very frightened and concerned.

So, instead of dismissing such claims, you guys should really start accepting the possibility that these ideas are correct and looking into how correct they are. NOTE: The world isn't black and white, so don't expect every answer to be like that. Shades of grey people.

Please note that just because someone says the US today is like Nazi Germany, doesn't mean that they are stated it is exactly the same. It just means that there are enough similarities to warrent concern that the US today is headed in the same direction with potentially similar outcomes.

Given the above, it is actually quite difficult (I'll go as far to say impossible) to make a case that such things aren't going on now. I cite history as my proof.

Now it's just up to you guys to do something about it before something really bad happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenadak:

and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there!

Although "best" is something that is subjective, there are many markers that people look to for being "best" when considering the "best" country. ie poverty, quality of education, etc. NOTE: These are things that the US doesn't do well in.

If you look to the UN for there studies on the "best" country to live in, that would be (from memory) Finnland. But in fact all Scandinavian countries did very well.

Also, the only reason why the US ranked at all in these studies is because of all the tech companies in (basically) California. So, it has a high level of inovation in that industry. Take that away and the US plummets down the list.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:18 AM

If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

So far, I've not seen anything but rants about how much Conservatives don't agree with Postmodern Liberals. Contrary to what some Liberals seems to think, this does not make us a fascist state.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

You should really learn to read posts.

I'll quote myself:
"although there isn't an exact match between Nazi Germany and the US today, there are enough parallels to be very frightened and concerned."
and:
"NOTE: The world isn't black and white, so don't expect every answer to be likethat. Shades of grey people."
and:
"enough similarities to warrent concern that the US today is headed in the same direction with potentially similar outcomes."

So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Again, the society you live in is definitly headed in that direction and is closing in on the mark. The parallels to Nazi Germany are frightening if you would actually pay attention.

There are several points here. Dispite the title, give the content a chance.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/01/26/hs
orensen.DTL

Also, I don't have the time to look it up, but I remember reports that the US was building a prison for the suspected terrorists. They would be sent there until they were dealt with. But since they are terrorists they could sit there for the rest of there lives without due process. Can we say modern day Goolog?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

RUE

Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:21 AM

Just a quick post for all of you who think the government is only watching terrorists:
http://www.matrix-at.org/ Project — a pilot effort to increase and enhance the exchange of sensitive terrorism and other criminal activity information between local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies

And what is the harm? At the very least, large databases are a gold-mine for criminals:
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/03/09/data/index.html
U.S. citizens' data possibly compromised
March 9, 2005 | New York -- Hackers commandeered a database owned by information industry giant Lexis Nexis, gaining access to the personal files of as many as 32,000 people, company officials said Wednesday.(Lexis Nexis bought up Seisint, which is the company that created the MATRIX database.)

But it goes even further: rather than being passive and waiting for people to hire its capabilities, Seisint made up a data base of 120,000 people that IT profiled as potential terrorists, and turned the list over to the government. Nearly everybody on the list was not, is not, and never will be a terrorist. But the government investigated people on the list, and there is no guarantee the list was ever discarded. http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,63535,00.html?tw=wn_2polihea
d%22

Quote:
Before helping to launch the criminal information project known as Matrix, a database contractor gave U.S. and Florida authorities the names of 120,000 people who showed a statistical likelihood of being terrorists — sparking some investigations and arrests.

These 120,000 people are now under suspicion just because they were winnowed out of a database.

If the actual keeping publicly available data is not an invasion of privacy, the free-lance searching in the absence of a crime was: there was no 'reasonable suspicion'. Are you willing to give up 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'freedom from unreasonable search and seizure?'

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Once again, I’ve seen no such evidence. Just wild speculation and things people conveniently have no time to look up. I really think it is despicable to bandy the Nazi memory around for political gain. Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

< sarsasm >
Yah Finn, it's absolutly terrible that those Germans that learn all about Nazi Germany so that it'll never happen again are making comparisons.

Perhaps you should go over there to set the record straight on what happened in there history, because clearly you have knowledge that they don't.
< /sarcasm >

If you would actually open your mind and stop being so opinionated perhaps you'd learn something. Read the link I gave and the link off that. Read Rue's post and his links.

But perhaps you don't want to give into facts because it create a breeze across that house of cards that is your delusion.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:13 AM

Lots of words flying back and forth today.

Just a quick nitpick on your pronouns, SigmaNunki (and Rue will correct me if I'm wrong). I think it should read, "Read Rue's post and her links."

I've avoided posting in this thread mostly because of the title (I've been periodically reading the entries) but I figured I might as well wade in during the few minutes I'm here.

Do I think the US is a modern day fascist state? Nope. Is the potential there? Absolutely. Any democracy has the potential to become a fascist state. Are we heading in that direction? I'm not sure but I'm worried. Some of the elements of fascism are corporatism, nationalism, and anti-liberalism - all of which are present to some degree in the US. However, fascism in the US would look completely different than German or Italian fascism because of the nationalistic component. In other words, extremely context dependent.

Side note. If I genuinely thought the US was already a fascist state I would not be proudly trumpeting my liberalism on a message board. Since I have identified myself as such on a couple of occasions, I must not be too worried.

Additional side note. I finally got around to reading David Neiwert's thought provoking essay, "The Rise of Pseudo Fascism" (which won a Koufax for best series of 2004 - for those of you who don't know what a Koufax is, you might not get much out of the essay). I would recommend it to anyone on the left side of the political spectrum. You can find links to the essay in either pdf or html in the sidebar of David's blog, Orcinus ( http://dneiwert.blogspot.com). I especially appreciated Chapter 2, which I'm sure has influenced the way I think about fascism in general.

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:13 PM

Quote:
. 5 bush hate-speech posts in an hour... You are a busy little hate monger...

1rst off lets get one thing straight if nothing else..I don't hate period...I don't hate anyone not even Bush...I'll say it again..Bush and his corrupt administration scare me..

Quote:
. I don't agree with bush on a lot of levels...
I do agree with his economic policy. ...

I'm curious can you elaborate on the economic policy you agree with so much

Quote:
. being a small business owner (read NOT BIG BUSINESS) I feel his actions make my company more viable and in turn more capable to hire "you poor common folk"...

what kind of business do you own, as a small Business owner you are going to be the 1rst to be effected by Bush's economic plan..you won't be able to hire poor Common folk, probably will have to lay them off and I hope you have some money saved up because you are going to need it!!

Quote:
. please understand that America is based on a constitutional republic: The government is based on rules set forth by the founding fathers. Your Socialized medical, Socialized retirement, and Socialized society is not in our constitution. .

yep America is a Republic, but wake up , we are not living in the America of our founding fathers, we are not living in the America where most people were self sustaining and living on farms or living in interdependent communities that relied on eachother..and again think about how America accumulated much of its wealth..through a free labor system slavery

the America of today most people live in Urban centers and their lively hood is dependent on economics, the majority of people are not self sustaining... without alot of these social programs what kind of lives would most people have?? the obvious answer is slave labor ..these social programs have managed to keep America thriving

Quote:
. and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there..

well its true America isn't the greatest country in the world...its certainly not the worst and America has the potential to be a great country

but right now I could name some countries that are are better then America ..Sweeden...the Netherlands..are they perfect no ...no country is we can defintely do better!!

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:23 PM

Quote:
If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

nobody is saying that we are living in a facist state...

what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:19 PM

Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:37 PM

Soup- Re my previous post, most ppl don't understand that state-enforced corporatism is an essential component of fascism. They seem to think it's related to killing Jews. Hey, I don't see Jews in concentration camps- do you??? Must not be fascism!

A lot of people who think they are libertarians are actually nascent fascists because of their love affair with corporations. A fascinating metamorphosis occurs when state power- the anathema of libertarianism- is directed to the care, feeding and protection of corporations... then suddenly, all reservations about the use of state power disappear. True libertarians would be up in arms (metaphorically speaking) about the growth of the Federal government under Bush, and its increasing intrusion into our pesonal lives.

As far as the willingness of the government to round up people en masse... perhaps you've heard of the ankle-bracelet program for ALL immigrants of undetermined status? These are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have gone through the system whose status is being determined or is on appeal... The program is such thay they have to be at home every day between 6PM and 6AM, and report twice a week in person to (in essence) a parole officer. Basically, they are under "house arrest". The reason for the program is because the immigration files are such a mess that they can't reliably re-contact a large portion of their caseload because they can't find phone numbers and addresses! The program is being tested on a few hundred, if "successful" it will apply to over 12,000 people. Now, remember, these are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have applied through the system, who live and work here, people who have not been convicted or even accused of ANY crime... just people that the government is apparently too disorganized to keep track of by ordinary means (like keeping a phone number on file).

Don't forget that before the Nazis rounded up the Jews, they rounded up Gypsies.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

You’re going to have to do better then that. Because what I see in most of the posts in this thread drawing the fascism comparison is not fascism, but Postmodern Liberalism.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

Fascism: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fascism

I don’t deny that it could happen here; it could happen anywhere. But that notion alone is not enough to support the idea that it is happening. However, this isn’t really a hypothetical discussion of what could happen, but rather an anti-Bush screed, in most cases. It seems that anytime Liberals disagree with someone, sooner or later some of them will come up with accusations of Fascism, generally based on some whimsical hypothetical or rhetorical stunt. Liberals made similar kinds of accusations during Reagan’s Presidency, however, interesting enough, the evil specter of Fascism didn’t seem to reappear until W, oddly bypassing Clinton.

Nazi Germany was decidedly socialist, and Hitler would have had more in common, both politically and economically, with Stalin then with Reagan or Bush. In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy. Today one who supports a free-market economy is far more likely to be a Conservative, then a Postmodern Liberal. Both Hitler and Mussolini portrayed themselves as champions of the working class. If one were going to draw reckless comparisons, one could just as easily, if not more so, claim that American Democratic Party is heading towards Fascism. Of course that comparison wouldn’t sit well with most Postmodern Liberal ideologues, would it? Yet one can make it, although perhaps not genuinely.

However, I would be reticent to do so, because as I’ve stated in another discussion on this board, one encounters an error due to discrete quantization in such comparisons. That is that just because one can find that some of the tenets of a certain philosophy correlate with some of the tenets of another, does not mean the two are similar, since agreeing with something can be quite different then agreeing with something to some degree.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:27 PM

"In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy."

??????

Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.

What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.

Ok, a translation from my wife:
Proletariat - working class/lower social class/little education. Somewhere along those lines. Please keep in mind that Marx used it as a scientific term in his theories.

Volksgemeinschaf (proper spelling "Volksgemeinschaft") - The community of the people, but with a special emphasis on German/Arian including all of the people (NOTE: not just the Proletariat).

Thus you are comparing apples and oranges. You are throwing terms around without proper understanding of there meaning.

There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:12 PM

I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 11, 2005 1:41 AM

It seems that its hard for some to wrap their brains around America on its way to being Facist because its not happening exactly like Nazi Germany...

history can repeat itself but that its not going to happen the exact same way

I and most people only use Germany as a comparison not as an exact model of whats happening in America..the times and the circumstances and the country as a whole are diffrent is Bush Hilter of course not...

I'm wondering what its going to take before people see the signs..there are alot of diffrent things happening all over... right now in California they are trying to pass laws to take away so many workers rights

one only has to look at the prison industrial complex to see that its becoming slave labor, you've got corporations privatizing prisons, but nobody cares because they are crimnals..it hasn't dawned on people that laws might be passed to make sure these corporations have a steady stream of slave labor, no jobs leads to crime

This new bankruptcy law that they are trying to pass is a direct result of credit Card companies being one of Bush's biggest supporters

Under the homeland security act the federal government has more power and control over our lives..then ever before

and there is so much more going on
maybe if you looked at these issues seperately, they wouldn't seem so bad but they are adding up daily every month its something new..you start looking at all of this stuff together and seeing how each one is a peice of the puzzle the picture starts to become more clear!!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.

This is classic. It’s pure doublethink. Vizzini tells me that “there’s a good reason why there are different name for these different theories of society.” But then when he gets to Nazism, that is National Socialism, all of the sudden, those “good reasons” disappear.

One naturally doesn’t wish to believe that this is the only logic he is using, but it is. Maybe you’re right Vizzini, maybe there really is a good reason why Nazism is called National Socialism. Possibly because it’s a kind of socialism? Oh no, that entirely logical deduction doesn’t support your insane ranting; it can’t possibly be true. INCONCEIVABLE!!!!!

You’re a source unending amusement. And that’s a good thing.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.

I understand the distinction. Perhaps not as well as Vizzini’s wife, because my German’s not very good, but I never claimed they were exactly the same thing.

How the effects are distributed makes little difference on how Socialism is defined. Socialism is what it is, negative or positive effects, notwithstanding. And what a group says about its philosophies goes a long way to describing those philosophies, and without a doubt, both Mussolini and Hitler described themselves in very Socialist terms. No Surprise for Mussolini, he was a communist after all. Hitler was probably more an opportunist, but like many dictators I’m sure Hitler realized the benefit to government control of the economy.

As far as what they actually did, well both Hitler and Mussolini were good for their Left-wing Socialist rhetoric. Like Communist Russia Hitler abolished Unions and replaced them with state-run labor organizations, hunted down and exterminated rival Leftists, and waged war against small businesses while reigning in the bigger businesses with heavy government regulation culminating in an economy centralized on Hitler’s Nazi party. The major distinction between Nazism and Bolshevism was that corporations would be privately owned, but still heavily regulated. Both Hitler and Mussolini were right little Left-wing revolutionaries including nationalization of education, healthcare and transportation. Under the Nazi regime and Communist regime of East Germany, Germany had a government run social welfare system.

Sure, Nazi Germany could have been more Left-wing if they had instituted a government ownership of land and capital, making them basically a Communism. But just because Fascism may have been to the right of Communism doesn’t mean it was to the right of everything else.

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, March 11, 2005 6:58 AM

You have some right things in there and some wrong things in there. But to tear your arguments apart would require time that I don't have.

But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.

But, you seem to always change what you are arugueing for. Could you state your arguments in a few paragraphs so that we can all know what the hell you are trying to say.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.

Finn's being hip with his pop culture references. Vizzini was a character in The Princess Bride who thought himself smarter than he actually was. I guess it's a more civil attack than calling someone a traitor or a Saddam lover or a feminazi. It's kind of like the difference between what you would hear on NPR versus more of a Limbaugh type show.

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I don't think Finn understands the distinctions.

I concurr.

I also don't think that he is aware that people can call themselves one thing and behave in a completely different way.

The Nazi's may have put socialist in there name, but naming yourself that doesn't a socialist one make. Behaviour is what does that, and if one looks at the history books, the Nazi's were everything but.

EDIT: By the way, just thought you might get a kick out of this. From theWife Finns spelling of Volksgemeinschaf (which is wrong) would translate to (if it was a word) "community evil sheep."

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:39 PM

@SoupCatcher:
Thanks for the info.

So, now we know that Finn can be creative at least in one respect. Even if it is only name calling.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show