More on 'Core Beliefs' by chrisisall

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

More on 'Core Beliefs'

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2009 04:42
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Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:16 AM

AURAPTOR:

core beliefs don't 'evolve', they are a foundation on which one views the world. If your foundation is always shifting, you can't build much of anything on them.

SIGNYM:

I think you're confusing "core beliefs" with "core ethics". An ethic is how you distinguish right from wrong. It is ONE kind of belief. A "belief" is a more general category. It could about Santa Claus or Jesus, or your a priori assumptions, or your core ethics. I have a core ethic, and my core ethic is: Belief is bad. It keeps people from questioning themselves and others. It keeps people from seeing a bigger picture than they saw yesterday.

So far, all I see is a core belief that Muslims are bad. If that's a mis-read: what IS (ARE) your core belief(s)?

ANTHONYT:

Hello,

My core beliefs AND ethics have changed over time. Things I once considered permissable in my youth, I now consider unpermissable. Things I once embraced without a second thought, I now have grave doubts or even disbelief towards.

The analogy of 'you can't build anything on a shifting foundation' is a flawed one. Life isn't one original foundation of beliefs and principles upon which all else is laid.

Life is a series of foundations and the actions built upon them. As experience is acquired, new foundations are laid, new actions built up. Life is not one vast building. Life is a City full of the buildings you've made. The idea of a stagnant foundation is, to me, madness. It implies an inability to achieve growth at the most important levels.

My own analogy would be thus. Egypt has several pyramids. The earlier ones were primitive step-designs and in some cases poorly built, collapsing in on themselves. New foundations were laid. New pyramids built. The most basic assumptions about pyramid building evolved. (So don't let anyone tell you that Aliens built the things, unless the Aliens were morons who screwed up the first couple before they got it right.)

Yes, even foundations evolve. God help you if they don't. You can't build forever on a single, unchanging foundation. At some points in your life, it is highly desirable to re-examine yourself from the bottom up, to critically analyze even your most basic and sacred beliefs and assumptions, and make the necessary changes. Then you can create a new building of improved actions on a better foundation. And then another. Until the day you die.

SIGNYM:

Good point Anthony.

IMHO the most difficult challenge is to RECOGNIZE your core beliefs. The deeper and more fundamental the belief, the harder it is to see... simply because it IS part of your world view.

In my opinion that a person who reveals something about me to myself... something I didn't know and would never have suspected... deserves my deepest thanks.

CHRISISALL:

Here's a core belief of mine I latched onto in 1971 that's pretty much not changed over the years:
"Learn more ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check. Check rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. For all life is precious nor can any be replaced."

KWICKO:

My core beliefs?

I know with absolute certainty that I can never know with anything like absolutely certainty my place in the universe. I know that nothing I do is important, but that it is very important that I do it.

Core enough for ya?

RUE:

Core Beliefs

Hey - this may all be a dream of some demented teenage boy-girl on some extra-solar planet -

- but it's all I've got.

So I'm going to believe that it's real, act like it's real, and suffer the consequences and reap the rewards of this place. I'm going to trust that my actions will never be repeated and never be repealed. I'm going to believe that whatever I do - as large or small as it may be - will have effects - and act accordingly.

And then - nothing (or at least I'll find out).

FREMDFIRMA:

Mine are actually obvious, most of em.

What you do, is who you are.

You should avoid harming other people.

Children are people.

Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.

People are naturally humane, it takes a lot of effort and training to make them otherwise.

And, for balance, one less obvious one that most folks prolly won't like.

Once a person has voluntarily cast aside or surrendered their humanity, they are no longer a human being and should not be regarded as such.

ANTHONYT:

My current cast of core beliefs are as such:

1) Try to be honest without being cruel, but be honest with yourself even if it feels cruel.

2) Help as much as you can, Harm as little as you can.

3) Remember that even Solomon, with all his wisdom, could be wrong. And I'm not Solomon.

4) Forgive yourself your sins, but try to eliminate them, too.

5) God wants You to be the best You possible.

6) There is a Purpose to Life.

7) Let no man unjustly interfere with you, and likewise do not unjustly interfere with any man.

Foundation subject to change as I continue to learn. :-)

CHRISISALL:

More of my core beliefs (I love how peeps put theirs here!):

Treat others in the way you would like to be treated.

Be certain that uncertainty rules.

Be excellent to each other.

When faced with superior force, get in the first punch.

SIGNYM:

My first core belief... my a priori asumption... is that the universe is real and we are a part of it. My second is that we come to know it through our senses. Don't talk to me about gods or religion or belief. If you think something exists, show me. Don't say that your ethics are "god-given". They were created by people.

My core ethics are (1) Knowledge, and self-knowledge. I hold them in high regard. (2) Greatest good for greatest number, including generations from now.

What I learned from this board: (1)You must be the change you wish to see. I have seen too many people here using fine-sounding goals (justice, freedom, security) to justify torture, murder, and tyranny. (2) Large institutions should be kept in check.

AURAPTOR:

We all have the same basic rights.

My rights, as do all others, allow me to do what ever I want, so long as my actions don't infringe or hinder anyone else's rights through force of fraud. ( So, drugs and 'companioning' ought to be legal )

We belong to ourselves. No country, no political party, no religion, no company owns us. We might say we have no choice to stay w/ the crappy job, but we're kidding ourselves. There are 2 things we have no choice in, being born, and dying. All we do in between is basically up to us.

While the Cosmos is infinitly old, we are here only a finite amount of time. Jimmy Buffett puts it best, I think....

" And still twenty four hours
maybe sixty good years
It's really not that long a stay"

Mankind is new to this planet, and it's a very old planet. Older than most can comprehend.

Lots of life on this little rock, over its time. Lots.

SIGNYM:

Rapo,out of your set of core beliefs... which I have a great deal of sympathy for... how do you and I wind up so far apart?

Unfortunately. I'll have to get back later this, but I just wanted you to know that I saw and understood your post. Thanks.

CHRISISALL:

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There are 2 things we have no choice in, being born, and dying. All we do in between is basically up to us.

I wouldn't say "all" here, I think there are aspects we don't fully control.
Again, from my youth:
"What happens in a man's life is already written. A man must move through life as his destiny wills."
"Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. I do not understand it."

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Props to Chris for starting this thread. I was having a tough time trying to figure out which thread I needed to focus on and which I was done with.

Now, I've got a walk in closet that needs straightening out, if you've got some free time.....

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The Pals advocate child murder, I advocate saving lives. If you were honest , at all, you'd put that in your sig.

First of all, in your previous statement you DO advocate murdering children. Sorry, but... that's what it says. Maybe you rationalize it by saying "They started it" but you have clearly advocated killing kids for nothing other than being dressed up in clothing they didn't even choose. Right there is a big contradiction between what you say you're for and how you apply it in real life.

Care to explain?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
What I lament, using your word, is that there's a mindset out there, a culture of people ( it's not a race, nor religion specific ) which willfully and gleefully brain washes it's children to martyr themselves , while murdering 10's or 100's of innocent people, out of pure, unadulterated and unchecked hatred for what ever the hell cause they think is just.- rapo

Of course, these exact same words could be used to describe many of those who join our military. Not all, mind you, but there ARE those of a certain mindset there who joined just because that's the culture they were born into, and they'll so completely trust in those who raised them to be cannon-fodder that they'll gleefully throw themselves in harm's way to "protect" a country that would just as soon use them up and throw them away.- Kwicko

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

In another thread, Anthony T asks me to clarify, and I agree, that such a real life scenario where an infant/ toddler is loaded down w/ explosives, ( which has happened, btw ) that it's the handler who does the actual detonating, not the child. So, taking the child out " before " detonation is really pointless in trying to stop the attack from being carried out.

And that far fetched premise was all I was referring. That if it's either the kid, or a group on a school bus ( and the kid is going to be "martyred" anyway) then clearly, the choice to take the kid out , to save the others

Taking out the handler, and leaving the innocent kid in one piece, would clearly be preferable.

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think we were just coming to a breakthrough when we switched threads, where AuRaptor said the child was not responsible for its circumstances?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Yes, there we go.

A consensus that the child is

1) Innocent, not responsible for its circumstances

and

2) Should be kept alive if at all possible.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Seems like it to me!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:17 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Now, I've got a walk in closet that needs straightening out, if you've got some free time.....

LOL.
I'd like to get back to the idea that 'core beliefs' are rock solid and never changing.

Does this mean core beliefs are placed into you as a child, or are they formulated by the individual based on experience & perception? And if the latter, why not re-examine them from time to time as experience & perception accumulate & clarify, respectively?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

There was one core belief I do recall changing, from my youth - at one time I thought human emotion was a the root of much of our social ills because of confusion between what society and it's "educational" system was trying to tell me, and the evidence right in front of me every day contradicting it.

Eventually I realized that position didn't hold water when all the evidence related to it pointed the OTHER way, and I wondered why folks would want me to believe something so untrue...
And when I figured it out, I got pissed, and stayed that way ever since, although some folk might argue I was kinda born that way.

When I saw the movie Equilibrium my first thought when the credits rolled was wishing it existed, and I had watched it, back then - woulda saved a lotta trouble.

And yes, according to some I was damn near BORN cynical, pissed off, and snarky.

I still laugh every time I see this old pic, some things just never do change, do they ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 AM

CHRISISALL

Dude...I thought you'd be...taller.

(Plisskin joke

)

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I believe that picking apart your own core beliefs and analyzing them from time to time is very healthy.

I gave an analogy in the other thread about a life not being a single massive building built on an unchanging foundation, but rather a City full of many buildings and foundations, evolving over time. I used Ancient Egypt as another analogy, or metaphor, for this idea. The first Pyramids were primative, and in some cases poorly designed structures. (Well, though still more impressive than anything I'll ever build!) Over time, better Pyramids were constructed. This is what a Life is to me. Newer buildings of better design on improved foundations until you die.

Justice seemed very simple to me when I was much younger. Black and White. I had no room for people as flawed but beautiful creations. If you made a mistake, then you deserved to get strung up. Then as I got older I started making bigger mistakes. I noticed that people I admired were making mistakes, too. Used to be that I thought Bad Choices = Bad People. I've since learned that even Good People can make Bad Choices from time to time.

I used to be blindly Patriotic. Now I'm Patriotic with eyes wide open. I know the government does bad things for bad reasons sometimes, and they need to get called out on it, or diverted from their path. But thanks to earlier experience I've learned not to hate my government when it does something bad. I just hate the bad things it does.

I think the modern me and the old me could get in some pretty serious arguments if we were to meet today. I'm glad of that fact. It means I'm growing.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:00 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I think the modern me and the old me could get in some pretty serious arguments if we were to meet today. I'm glad of that fact. It means I'm growing.

Same here old boy.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Indeed.

I think everyone here prettymuch sees that very dynamic between me and Wulfenstar.

I have quite a few "younger me's" who's heads I try to knock a little sense into on occasion outside the forum as well.

-F

PS - Chris, I get that a lot, one of the most amusing things about being barely 5'6" tall with such a scary reputation.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

I still laugh every time I see this old pic, some things just never do change, do they ?

You mean you still wear sweater-vests?

Just funnin' ya!

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:39 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

My core beliefs:

1. There is an objective reality that I am a part of and can affect.
---1a. Everything within this objective reality is (probably) a natural creature which obeys the "laws" of reality (metaphysical naturalism).

2. Life is finite, amazing, and precious.

3. Life is unimportant and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

4. Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you. (The Silver Rule, which I like much better than the Golden Rule.)

5. ALL people have value.*

6. The only purpose of a person's life is the one they choose.

7. People have the right to do what they wish with their own bodies and selves so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others to do the same.

8. Human beings are fallible.
---8a. I have been wrong, I could be wrong now, and I will be wrong in the future.

I probably forgot a couple, and there's a lot more that I'm still thinking about, like how #5 is speciest and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or if I should extend that to other creatures. And #2 and #3 can be difficult to reconcile sometimes, though not always. I'm also still working on how I should apply these in my life, other than "treat people nice," which is an unsatisfactory answer for me. But I'm young, so (hopefully) I'll have time to work through this stuff.

I'm a big proponent of question one's own beliefs because of #8. Although I usually don't tamper with #1, as it's not good for my mental well-being.

Edit: For my own benefit, here's where the conversation started in the other thread:

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37400#688102

*This one's the newest belief out of all of them. I might have thought it and said it before but not really believed it, until recently.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:28 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:

6. The only purpose of a person's life is the one they choose.

How very Star Trek The Motion Picture.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:35 PM

WHOZIT

I have 1 core belief

Barry likes to eat beef that costs $100 per pound, while children in Chicago eat Cockroaches of the floor.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:43 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I must confess that if I had the material means, I would also enjoy expensive beef even if somewhere someone was eating insects.

By the way, do we have an article about that? Most kids I know abhor the idea of eating roaches. Even the poor ones.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
I have 1 core belief

Barry likes to eat beef that costs $100 per pound, while children in Chicago eat Cockroaches of the floor.

Man, that sentence ALMOST made sense! Congrats.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:49 PM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
I have 1 core belief

Barry likes to eat beef that costs $100 per pound, while children in Chicago eat Cockroaches of the floor.

Man, that sentence ALMOST made sense! Congrats.

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

Thanks, I think I'm getting better.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Mikey, I could write a BOOK on the commentary my nieces and their friends make about my fashion sense, or in their mind, the lack of it!

And yes, I do still have some vests, one of which is brown velvet with pearl inlaid snaps and sets off a creme yellow turtleneck with white scarf quite nicely - and my old school bankers suit with vest and pocket watch is always a hit, but the top hat has seen better days...

Mostly though, my "look" is late-80's pre-grunge, which my nieces refer to as "salvation army chic".

Of course, that don't stop the younger one from wearing my extremely battered original issue Mk65 US Army Field Jacket now that I've replaced it with a jet black knock off.

-F

PS- And YES, there's a tie-dye t-shirt with a set of bell bottoms in that closet that still fit, since I never got any bigger from age 14 anyhows.

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Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:56 PM

KWICKO

Cockroaches of the Floor? Are those anything like the Triplets of Bellevue or the Legends of the Fall?

Mike

I'm something of a ne'er-do-well
even though that's something I could never do well...

The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Friday, March 27, 2009 3:26 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Cockroaches of the Floor?

Beat me to it.

Gonna git me some wild cow- no bovine growth hormone for ME!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, March 27, 2009 3:35 AM

CITIZEN

I'm not sure what you'd call my core 'beliefs'.

Maybe society and the State has no right to decide who lives and who dies. It's certainly forms a core around my opposition to state executions and Health care.

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Friday, March 27, 2009 10:47 AM

CHRISISALL

Do you believe in any 'absolutes'?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, March 27, 2009 10:55 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Do you believe in any 'absolutes'?

I believe you absolutely smell of monkey vomit.

Wouldn't the state having no right to decide who lives and who dies be an absolute?

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:00 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I believe you absolutely smell of monkey vomit.

I thought I washed it out...

Quote:

Wouldn't the state having no right to decide who lives and who dies be an absolute?

I was thinkin' like "NO ONE has the right to decide who lives and who dies" to be more of an absolute.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, March 27, 2009 11:09 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was thinkin' like "NO ONE has the right to decide who lives and who dies" to be more of an absolute.

No, under certain situations Doctors do. Medical Triage for instance. But those are medical decisions that are completely unlikely simple retribution (which is basically what executions are all about) or any other decision made at the state level. Individuals on an individual basis, case by case, is a whole different thing to a state deciding who lives and who dies.

I think Individuals should decide whether they can live or die.

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 4:42 AM

CHRISISALL

Your reasoning here is beyond question.

The laughing Chrisisall

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