Flaying the poor, revering the wealthy by SignyM

America loves a winner!

It's not about equality, but freedom.

The sooner you learn that, the better.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 4:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It's not about equality

Oh yeah, let's forget the whole idea of equality. May as well chuck democracy into the dustbin too. Who came up with those crazy ideas anyway? The Founding Fathers? What the fuck did THEY know?

That's what all you fascists say. "It's all about freedom".

"Freedom".

The latest word in the tea-bagger party. "Freedom" to screw anyone over as hard as you want.

I spit on you and your use of the word "freedom".

But I will take that "freedom" and screw you back, you bastard. And when I have MY boot planted on your head, I'll tell YOU it's all about freedom. MY freedom.

So be careful what you wish for because it'll come back and skewer you.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 5:59 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It seems everyone compares anything they don't like to the rise of Nazi Germany, on any side of any discussion.

I wonder if that is an argument 'trick,' or if it simply says, "Almost anything disagreeable in human behavior is represented by this abysmal regional timestamp in history."

I take greater exception to being called a fascist. From my skin to my marrow, I do not consider myself thus. I do not think it is just to call me thus. I believe you are blinded by anger, and incapable of seeing people as individuals.

I think I see where some of your anger is coming from, but it is impossible to have a discussion with this tone and attitude. I invite you to a dialogue that does not begin with identifying me as a Fascist.

Regards,

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Boy, I more than share your feelings, Sig. I also understand what Anthony' saying, and it's valid. I'm afraid right now I'd have a hard time posting about what's happening currently in a civil "tone" either, but to me this wasn't started as an invitation to dialogue, it's a "vent". Venting is healthy and good. I feel like venting too, and do so elsewhere, but unfortunately I recognize how futile it is to vent HERE, where partisanship tends to rule the day and there are idiots who are incapable of communicating, only spewing and...well, you know.

For me, the pattern of what's been happening ever since the midterms is so blatant, so incredible, so over the top that I'm astonished, not just that they're being allowed to get away with it, but that nobody seems to feel it's disproportionate or unfair! It lessense my hope for America and the American people.

Someone once posted "I don't understand why people keep voting against their own best interests"...boy, have we had the "grand theater" of THAT happening, and it deeply saddens me. When I remember the relief that Bush was gone and we wouldn't have "Bush Light" in McCain (and that crazy, Palin), I never dreamed it would actually get WORSE! But this is a "jihad", if you will, that the right has been on for decades, and right now they've got the power to put some of it in place, so they're going full bore. I fear for America.

I don't think she was calling you a facist, Anthony, just making a generalized statement, and I don't think you necessarily count as the people she's talking about.

Yes, Sig, "freedom"...another one of those lovely words like "liberty" which are so useful in propaganda and brainwashing...so clean, so clear, so subjective; everyone interprets them in their own head, which is precisely what the manipulators want. It's sickening.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:24 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Well, as a self-defining Libertarian, I was collateral damage in that statement.

I probably share a lot of Signy's anger and dismay, but it's quite a morning to wake up and find both barrels pointed in my direction (intentionally or not.)

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

For all the whinging about the debt and deficits, there's never been much (if any) interest in lowering either one of them.

Bush came into office with a surplus and a plan in place, left to him by his predecessor (with help from a Republican Congress, even), to start paying down the national debt and balance the budget. He promptly claimed that the government having a deficit was a sure sign that people were paying too much, and rather than pay down the debt and keep deficits low, he insisted that we had to increase the deficit with his off-budget wars of choice and his tax giveaways designed to crash the revenue stream. And boy, did he ever crash it.

Now that the bills for those wars are coming due, and the housing bubble has crashed, taking the financial sector with it, we're being told that it's all the fault of those greedy public employees who paid into their own retirement funds, only to have that money pissed away by the banksters, who then went and demanded that the government bail them out, and who now demand that the government reneg on the promises ("contracts") it made with those employees. Meanwhile, we're also told by the GOP and its toadies in the Tea Party that the banksters of course are due their "bonuses", because those were in their contracts, while public employees not only have no right to have their contracts upheld, but don't even have the right to negotiate a contract in the first place.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I probably share a lot of Signy's anger and dismay, but it's quite a morning to wake up and find both barrels pointed in my direction (intentionally or not.)

Tony, NOBODY likes being called a fascist. Hell, how much mileage would they get out of calling themselves the New American Nazi Party and openly calling for the culling of "parasites"* who are destroying America As We Know It? That's why fascists call themselves libertarians and tea-baggers (Oops! I meant Tea-Partiers

.) bray endlessly about "freedom" and "limited government", and find themselves a corporate sugar-daddy to fund their propaganda campaign! It sounds so much BETTER than fascism don't you see? But if it really dismays you to be called a fascist, stop calling yourself a libertarian. They've co-opted your party, son. Find a different name.

I don't have a lot of time to post quotes from the likes of Milton Friedman who talks about the poor dying "as they should", but if you look behind the curtain you will see the Koch brothers and other big-money interests who only want to ass-fuck you really hard.

I will come up with those quotes later.In the meantime, who said:

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

"I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature."

"Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice."

"_____ is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere."

*In our current mode that means the working poor, unemployed, people of color, government employees, working women, union members, and environmentalists, ALL of whom are destroying America As We Know It and Freedom.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Again with the Nazi references.

Fascists may call themselves anything. ANYTHING. And they do.

While scholars consider Fascism to be an extreme right position, it is easy to see many fascist positions and policies adopted by groups across the political spectrum.

Fascist concepts of Authoritarianism, Indoctrination, Social Interventionism, Economic Interventionism, and Social Welfare are alive and well in groups representing every political position, from extreme left to extreme right.

Anyone who points and shouts, "There they are! the fascists!" Well, they might as easily be standing in front of a mirror.

That's because fascism isn't a political thing. It's a thing in human nature. We've all got a little Nazi in us.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, Tony. "Fascism" is the alliance of government with corporations. Seriously. Look it up. I do not call the current tea-baggers and libertarians "fascist" lightly or without significant historical precedent.

So choose a different name. Call yourself an anarcho-libertarian or an Adam-Smith capitalist, but don't call yourself a libertarian or a tea-partier because the movement has left you behind and morphed into something you couldn't stomach if you looked behind the curtain.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 7:15 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

No, Signy. Fascism is much more than an economic policy. That is one piece of a much larger whole.

In fact, even in common use, when someone calls someone else a Fascist, they seldom are thinking, "You believe that there should be an alliance between government and corporations for the economic well-being of the nation!"

Rather, they are thinking of a great many other things.

Also, I don't see why I need to stop calling myself a Libertarian just because the Tea Party has been invaded by a bunch of mean spirited people who call themselves Libertarian.

That would be like no longer calling myself American because a bunch of mean spirited people call themselves Americans.

They can't have it. It's mine.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 7:19 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey there Signy,

Kwicko better watch his back, if he's to keep his title as angriest on the internet.

Raptor's response here--freedom, not equality--is truly astonishing to me and I have you to thank for bringing it to the surface. I think he's summed up the whole Orwellian, cognitive clusterfuck that is our modern American madness. What he's calling "freedom" is nothing like what you and I would even dream of calling freedom. I'm still trying to put it together here, so bear with me.

First, I think "fascism" is actually off the mark for these people. It's a giant red herring and in a million ways, I think, programmed by their propaganda machine. They want you to yell "fascist" 'cause they know it will get you exactly nowhere--or better yet, in trouble with your prospective allies against them (cf.: Anthony's response). Besides, fascism would be a step up from what their true dream of America has become.

What I think we're dealing with here is all-out feudalism. The poor red stater who continually votes against his economic interests is the equivalent of the serf who paradoxically loves the lord of the manor; there are simply those who are born to rule and those who are born to bend the knee. AURaptor is the latter, through and through. Doesn't mean he can't speak with pride about his individualism and independence, for these are the same avowed values of his lords and masters, and he loves them with all his heart. Individualism and independence can never touch, and so never threaten, that love.

We like to think that classism is a European phenomenon, but classism is THRIVING in this country now that it's become completely disguised as "freedom." I think what he's calling freedom is closer to what you and I might recognize as the divine right of kings. This Capitalist Order, to a man like Raptor, is his atheistical version of infallible God's Law.

You try talking to a serf about universal healthcare and he'll just laugh. That would be the role of the church after all, and the church must stay out of worldly affairs.

A lord who did not constantly push his advantage, did not act ruthlessly with his enemies and his fellow lords alike, would lose his vassals' respect.

In feudal society "reality" is scorned in favor of "values."

Anyway, you see where I'm going with this. If we look at AURaptor and imagine him speaking from his hovel at the swamp end of his Lord's estates, his seemingly endless self-contradictions and fanciful cosmology--I mean, political science--all become quite simply clear.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 7:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

On the Economy of Fascism...

Even in the economics of Fascism, one notes surprising philosophies that raise an eyebrow.

* Fascists opposed the laissez-faire economic policies that were dominant in the era prior to the Great Depression.

* Fascists declared their opposition to finance capitalism, interest charging, and profiteering.

* Fascist governments introduced price controls, wage controls and other types of economic interventionist measures.

* Fascists thought that private property should be regulated to ensure that "benefit to the community precedes benefit to the individual.

* Private property rights were supported but were contingent upon service to the state. For example, "an owner of agricultural land may be compelled to raise wheat instead of sheep and employ more labour than he would find profitable."

* Mussolini wrote approvingly of the notion that profits should not be taken away from those who produced them by their own labour.

These economic policies, a component of Fascism, are found amongst reasonable people everywhere. They don't define Fascism.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 7:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh and BTW the quotes are from Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, and Mussolini respectively.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 8:00 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh and BTW the quotes are from Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, and Mussolini respectively.

Hello,

Yes, Signy, thank you. It can be even more fun to quote people's unexpected comments.

"Race! It is a feeling, not a reality... Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today. ... National pride has no need of the delirium of race."

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 8:01 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey there Signy,

Kwicko better watch his back, if he's to keep his title as angriest on the internet.

No worries - I do believe Signy is a female. I'm the angriest MAN on the internet. Although these days, with the teabaggers running the GOP, there's more than enough anger to go around. While I still have a lock on the Angriest Man™ title, I welcome Signy's anger.

As John Lydon said, "Anger is an energy." We need all the energy we can get. Maybe someday we can produce a car powered by anger. It would be great for rush hour commutes! :D

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:05 AM

HKCAVALIER

Absolutely, Kwicko! I think there's room for the two of you on the float. I'm getting an image of you as sort of the Homecoming King and Queen of Anger at the moment. Remember: elbow, elbow, wrist, wrist, wrist.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

That's what all you fascists say. "It's all about freedom".

"Freedom".

Thanks for proving the point that you're a ruttin' moron.

You don't even know the definition of the word 'fascist ', yet you toss it around when ever you have no argument.

And you sure as hell can't show how I'm a fascist, or a racist, a nazi, a misogynist, or that I " hate " gays... I'm exactly NONE of those things, yet it's just so damn predictable. You can't win the debate, so all you do is name call.

Quote:
The latest word in the tea party. "Freedom" to screw anyone over as hard as you want.

I spit on you and your use of the word "freedom".

But I will take that "freedom" and screw you back, you bastard. And when I have MY boot planted on your head, I'll tell YOU it's all about freedom. MY freedom. So be careful what you wish for because it'll come back and skewer you.

Idle threats from a complete and total loser. But feel better about yourself.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:36 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Also, I don't see why I need to stop calling myself a Libertarian just because the Tea Party has been invaded by a bunch of mean spirited people who call themselves Libertarian.

That would be like no longer calling myself American because a bunch of mean spirited people call themselves Americans.

They can't have it. It's mine.

--Anthony

Anthony - I've identified myself as a Libertarian LONG before there even was a TEA party movement. And I'm taking a wild guess that you'd claim MY political views are " mean spirited ", correct ? If so, I take great exception to that on the basis that it's flat out false.

Just because I know what it is I stand for doesn't make me ' mean spirited'. But nice try, anyway.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Bang on, HKC, that's EXACTLY why I refer to it as Neofeudalism, cause that's what it is.

But both Fascism and Feudalism share the same root, going back to that ridiculous, ludicrous born better/born bad/better men bullshit that Plato cooked up to excuse him and his contemporaries exploitation and abuse of their supposed inferiors.

As for the economic end of it, what Signym is referring to is indeed Mussolinis economic structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy_under_Fascism,_1922%E2%8
0%931943

Although I think in practices ours is more Hamiltonian Federalist, which pre-dates the italian jitterbug there, although in practice on the receiving end, yea verily, it doesn't look much damn different any more than one would care what the tread pattern is of the boot on their head.

I don't think anger is misplaced though, I'd be happy to hand out pitchforks and torches (the MI Militia actually had a cookout today, it was pretty fun) but once you realize I admire Robespierre and have similar notions towards our own powers that be, you might think twice before accepting them.

I won't initiate it, but I damn well WILL enable it, should it come to that, for reasons I've not the time to get into right now.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:52 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello AuRaptor,

I know from personal experience that you are mean-spirited, based on how you have spoken to me and treated me in the past. I am surprised that you would even try to question that. I even used to have a mean-spirited quote from you in my signature line.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:58 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello AuRaptor,

I know from personal experience that you are mean-spirited, based on how you have spoken to me and treated me in the past. I am surprised that you would even try to question that. I even used to have a mean-spirited quote from you in my signature line.

--Anthony

Yeah, but that's not what I asked, now is it ? I said my POLITICAL views.

As for comments made... I deny nothing. I defend that which matters to me, and I apologize for nothing.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:00 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello AuRaptor,

I know from personal experience that you are mean-spirited, based on how you have spoken to me and treated me in the past. I am surprised that you would even try to question that. I even used to have a mean-spirited quote from you in my signature line.

--Anthony

Yeah, but that's not what I asked, now is it ? I said my POLITICAL views.

As for comments made... I deny nothing. I defend that which matters to me, and I apologize for nothing.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I can't speak to your political views. Those are for you to speak of. I was speaking of Mean Spirited People, and that just because some of them choose to call themselves Libertarians does not mean I will stop calling myself a Libertarian.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:02 AM

America loves a winner!

Then how would you define one as being 'mean spirited' ?

Just so we can clarify.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:10 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Then how would you define one as being 'mean spirited' ?

Just so we can clarify.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

A failure of Empathy. An eagerness to inflict emotional, economic, social, or physical harm to others in order to glorify yourself or your group.

In general, if you find yourself infused with glee at the suffering (or imagined suffering) of your opponent, you are being mean-spirited. If you fantasize about the suffering of your opponent, you are mean-spirited. If you are consumed by dreams of harm to your opponent, whilst you are elevated in power or glory above them, you are mean-spirited.

I think mean-spiritedness is linked to a lack of empathy, a lack of humility, and powerful surges of ego.

I have never met a humble mean-spirited person. Although, I leave it to life to teach me about the panoply of unfolding possibility.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:11 AM

America loves a winner!

A well thought out definition.

And that ain't me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:13 AM

KANEMAN

We can't have freedom and equality at the same time. In a free society the cream will rise to the top and the shit will sink. Period.

Sure, the playing field should be equal, but over time there will be winners and losers, that will turn into whinners and 5%ers paying all the taxes....and then the hands come out..

I beleive we should all have the equality of freedom to make what we will of our OWN lives. There is no kaneman in team.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:18 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A well thought out definition.

And that ain't me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I can't judge you on behalf of society or the wide world, Raptor. I can only judge what you've shown me of yourself. If there is a brighter star behind the black sentiments you've shared with me here, I am glad of it. I would be grateful to have a mistaken impression of you.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:26 AM

America loves a winner!

Just like Mal says... you can't open up the book of my life and jump in the middle.

fff.net is but one chapter.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

even though they will collapse our currency with what they're doing
even though they shred personal liberties
even though they only represent about 30% of the voting public
even though deficits could easily be reversed by raising taxes on the rich a little and cutting military spending
even though the poor work at least as hard as the wealthy
even though health spending could be cut in half by eliminating the insurance companies
even though economic growth is higher in more equal nations (lower GINI index)
even though programs like public education and universal health care make a nation more efficient and competitive
even though starving dogs show more loyalty and cooperation than we do...

Massive, unnecessary spending, far in excess to what is being brought into the gov't, is what threatens our currency.

There's absolutely no reason to raise taxes on - ANYONE, while cutting spending would go a very long way in controlling the deficit.

The poor work as hard ? Maybe. but do they spend as wise ? Of course not. Part of being 'poor' is making poor choices in life.

The standard of living is far better in the US. The potential to do better far exceeds those 'equal' nations. And rapid growth is far easier when you don't have much in the first place.

universal healthcare will destroy this country. Period.

....

And I have to say, I take great exception to the practice of using 'social' Darwinism in pretty much any context. Darwin himself was emphatic that his views on nature NOT be projected and carried over into other areas. He was merely talking of how he observed nature, and wasn't assigning any intent or judgement to one group out competing another. But what the hell, right ? As Spacey showed, facts or context doesn't matter, as long as you can spread your propaganda and fool as as many people as possible.

And this idea that one has to be greedy, evil, mean and dishonest in order to BE rich....that's a crock. Worse, it's a phony excuse folks tell themselves to make themselves feel better.

" I may not have a 3 car garage, a wave runner, a 60" plama t.v...., but I'm a good and honest person, so I guess nice guys really do finish last. Boo hoo. "

One doesn't really have anything to do w/ the other... it's all in how you program your mind, and being honest with yourself.

As Mal sayeth... " We all got on this boat for different reasons. "

What one person views as a success in life, won't be the same as the next person. What one person is willing to give up to achieve might be more than most others... it's all about goals, and what an individual wants out of life.

You can't mandate equal outcomes in life. It simply isn't possible. Life, nature, does not work that way. To even try to control people like that is ...meddlesome.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:14 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"universal healthcare will destroy this country. Period."

Hello,

I see no evidence of this. I think it may be possible to provide universal, non-elective healthcare without damaging the nation.

Slashing the budget and paying down the deficit would seem to be a good first step in achieving the affordability of it.

--Anthony

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:21 AM

America loves a winner!

Yes, slashing the budget WOULD do wonders, but if you listen to this administration, that's the very LAST thing they want.

Obama says that cutting the budget ( money we don't have, and are having to borrow ) would kill the economy. Well now, whose fault is that ? Instead of trying to grow the economy , via the free market, Obama has tried to advance this nation a bunch of cash, all on credit, thinking that the spending 'furry' would ensue, and jump start the economy.

Hasn't worked , has it ?

And look at what a fuss was caused by just wanting to trim the budget, never mind 'slashing'.

The GOP is doing exactly the right, adult, and necessary thing. It's the other side which is blindly clinging to its ideology and paying off its contributors. Party before country, that's the Dem's motto.

And yes, universal health care will destroy this country.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"And yes, universal health care will destroy this country. "

Hello,

You keep saying this as though it is some kind of divinely inspired certainty. But you claim not to believe in God.

Where do you derive your certainty about universal health care destroying the country?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You know, facism (aside from it’s negative connotation) doesn’t fit as well as feudalism. That’s kind of where it’s at...class society. In our case, the American dream doesn’t happen for 99% of Americans, but the dream is always there, so they identify with the rich...”I can get there too”...and give them advantages, not realizing that they’re cheating themselves into the bargain. The class divide becomes greater and greater...we have at least three now, poor, middle and rich, with the difference between poor and middle getting less and less almost daily, while the difference between rich and the other two is growing exponentially. And of course we have our “born into” class.

Quote:
Thanks for proving the point that you're a ruttin' moron.

You don't even know the definition of the word 'fascist ', yet you toss it around when ever you have no argument.

And you sure as hell can't show how I'm a fascist, or a racist, a nazi, a misogynist, or that I " hate " gays... I'm exactly NONE of those things, yet it's just so damn predictable. You can't win the debate, so all you do is name call.

Amazing; not a single thing of substance to contribute; just “you are but what am I” straight off the playground. I can just see the little kid, face screwed up, tongue sticking out, hollering “You’re STUPID! You don’t know ANYTHING!” And of course the stomping of the foot and hollering “I am NOT!”, followed by “I hate you!” as he stomps off. Wow.

Quote:
Just because I know what it is I stand for doesn't make me ' mean spirited'.

No, you’re mean spirited because of what I just saw, which is typical of what you post...truly infantile put-downs and insults. Anthony is absolutely right on that one, everyone knows you by now, and knows exactly what to expect. Just as everyone doesn’t even “expect”, they KNOW you’ll never admit you’re wrong or apologize for anything.

Nobody is jumping in the middle of your life. But nobody who is NOT mean spirited would write the things you do—-consistently and with no shame whatsoever.

Quote:
Massive, unnecessary spending, far in excess to what is being brought into the gov't, is what threatens our currency, and Bush did it for years.

There's absolutely no reason to raise taxes on - ANYONE, when you can disguise them as something other than taxes and shift the rewards to those already making a mint, which has nothing to do with controlling the deficit.

The poor work as hard ? Maybe. but do they spend as wise ? Of course not. Part of being “rich” is thinking you’re better than the poor and that gives you the right to make decisions for them.

The standard of living is failing in the US. The potential for the rich to do better far exceeds those 'equal' nations because we’re already well on the way to that. And rapid growth isn’t where we’re headed, which gives them the edge, while we stagnate by giving money to those who are becoming our lords and masters..

I believe universal healthcare will destroy this country. Period. Please don’t bother me with the facts, I need to believe that.

That’s the truth.

The rest just isn’t worth reading; it's no doubt to the effect of "give the rich more, they'll make us all better off", despite the fact that both history and figures show that's never been true, and like all the other placard slogans he spouts, it’s just as false today as it was when Bush & Co. were saying it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:41 AM

America loves a winner!

Bureaucratic control of the healthcare system , from the federal level, will be a disaster.

Look at Canada, and look at the UK. Look at Obama's hand picked head of Medicare/Medicaid, Berwick, is adamant about redistributing the wealth, via healthcare.

Doctors are already retiring early. There'll be a shortage of hc professionals, and with the population bulge tilting to the baby boomers, we can look forward to rationing , delays and huge cost hikes. It's unfordable, and why so many states are going to court, to opt out.

Nothing about divine fiat here... just do the math.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

The poor work as hard ? Maybe. but do they spend as wise ? Of course not. Part of being 'poor' is making poor choices in life.

This is the BIG lie perpetuated by the American way of life. The myth that poor people are poor because they are stupid, or foolish. WRONG on so many counts.

10% of the population of this world own 90% of its resources. The world is full of hideous inequity, both in terms of what people have and the power they wield.

So how can you really explain away the fact that a few own so much and so many have so little. You do it so your conscience can be free. Tell yourself that the poor deserve to be poor and the wealthy deserve their wealth. Then you can step over the homeless, the ill without the slightest prick to your conscience.

Plenty of people in this world work hard, damned hard and make the best of the limited or non existent choices available to them and guess what, they are STILL poor.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:41 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

While I wait for a reply to that, I'll comment on the broader budget issue.

The Democrats are not upset because the budget was decreased. They are upset because budgetary items important to them were removed.

The Republicans would react in much the same way if the budget was slashed by removing items important to them.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"universal healthcare will destroy this country. Period."

Hello,

I see no evidence of this. I think it may be possible to provide universal, non-elective healthcare without damaging the nation.

Yeah, we've got universal health care and we are not on the brink of ruin, yet. And if we do get there, it won't be because of healthcare. It'll be because the smoke and mirrors of the free market elements of our system has once again come undone. Let's not forget that the current set of crisis throughout the world were brought about by a corrupt and greedy financial system.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

While I wait for a reply to that, I'll comment on the broader budget issue.

The Democrats are not upset because the budget was decreased. They are upset because budgetary items important to them were removed.

The Republicans would react in much the same way if the budget was slashed by removing items important to them.

--Anthony

We're facing across the board cuts. The Dems are demagoguing the issue, and hoping folks ignore the fact that Pelos failed to even SUBMIT a budget, last year.

This is a very large reason why we're IN this mess.

The items the GOP are targeting are on the chopping block, regardless. It's only a matter of time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bureaucratic control of the healthcare system , from the federal level, will be a disaster.

Look at Canada, and look at the UK. Look at Obama's hand picked head of Medicare/Medicaid, Berwick, is adamant about redistributing the wealth, via healthcare.

Doctors are already retiring early. There'll be a shortage of hc professionals, and with the population bulge tilting to the baby boomers, we can look forward to rationing , delays and huge cost hikes. It's unfordable, and why so many states are going to court, to opt out.

Nothing about divine fiat here... just do the math.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

We are, in fact, discussing the math. Math is, in fact, at the core of the problem.

I assume (and this is an assumption) that you are not against the idea of everyone in this country getting free medicine and health care. I assume that the principle of this is desirable to all. I presume that if you could press a magic button and provide everyone in the nation with good health care, you would.

The problem you see is one of math, or specifically, money. Administrative hurdles can be overcome. There are a million ways to skin a cat, and not all of them have been tried. But money is an issue.

So I wonder why the discussion is not about how best to make universal health affordable?

If everyone can agree that Universal Health Care is desirable in theory, then the argument should not be Yes or No, but rather 'How.'

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bureaucratic control of the healthcare system , from the federal level, will be a disaster.

Look at Canada, and look at the UK.

I can't speak to the Canadian system, but my memory of the UK health system was that it aint too bad. Not saying it has doesn't have its flaws, I'm sure it does. But at least you get free treatment. What's so bad about that. The US is considered to be an anathema in the western world with its user pays medical system.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:51 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

This is the BIG lie perpetuated by the American way of life. The myth that poor people are poor because they are stupid, or foolish. WRONG on so many counts.

10% of the population of this world own 90% of its resources. The world is full of hideous inequity, both in terms of what people have and the power they wield.

So how can you really explain away the fact that a few own so much and so many have so little. You do it so your conscience can be free. Tell yourself that the poor deserve to be poor and the wealthy deserve their wealth. Then you can step over the homeless, the ill without the slightest prick to your conscience.

Plenty of people in this world work hard, damned hard and make the best of the limited or non existent choices available to them and guess what, they are STILL poor.

What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?

What did Oprah do, before she earned her money ? Did she lie, cheat ?

Poverty is a mental disease. And it's largely preventable. That's the hard, cold truth of the matter. The homeless are that way because they chose to be that way. Maybe a few were put into tragic situations beyond their control, but those who want to do better by themselves know it's only a temporary set back, and will do what it takes to get back on their feet. Others will simply accept their 'fate', curl up in a bottle and cry that life is cruel.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:55 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

While I wait for a reply to that, I'll comment on the broader budget issue.

The Democrats are not upset because the budget was decreased. They are upset because budgetary items important to them were removed.

The Republicans would react in much the same way if the budget was slashed by removing items important to them.

--Anthony

We're facing across the board cuts. The Dems are demagoguing the issue, and hoping folks ignore the fact that Pelos failed to even SUBMIT a budget, last year.

This is a very large reason why we're IN this mess.

The items the GOP are targeting are on the chopping block, regardless. It's only a matter of time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I think it might go a long way to convince me that the GOP is serious about cutting the budget and paying down the deficit if they started suggesting cuts that would hurt their own interests and enrage their backers. I'd also like to see talk about eliminating tax escapes that allow a company to earn billions in profits without paying taxes.

The FIRST things on the chopping block should be all the budgetary items that Republicans cherish. Because if you're not willing to suffer first, it's not reasonable to ask that others do.

Leading by Example will earn much in the budget.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 11:56 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: The US is considered to be an anathema in the western world with its user pays medical system.

Which is why world leader after world leader comes to the US for the absolute best care in the world, huh?

Canadian official comes to U.S. for surgery

CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week. The premier's office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/canadian-offi
cial-comes-us-surgery#ixzz1J478wprJ

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:01 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

While I wait for a reply to that, I'll comment on the broader budget issue.

The Democrats are not upset because the budget was decreased. They are upset because budgetary items important to them were removed.

The Republicans would react in much the same way if the budget was slashed by removing items important to them.

--Anthony

We're facing across the board cuts. The Dems are demagoguing the issue, and hoping folks ignore the fact that Pelos failed to even SUBMIT a budget, last year.

This is a very large reason why we're IN this mess.

The items the GOP are targeting are on the chopping block, regardless. It's only a matter of time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I think it might go a long way to convince me that the GOP is serious about cutting the budget and paying down the deficit if they started suggesting cuts that would hurt their own interests and enrage their backers. I'd also like to see talk about eliminating tax escapes that allow a company to earn billions in profits without paying taxes.

--Anthony

Are you talking of Obama's deal w/ G.E ?

And it comes down to the proper function of gov't. I'm sure there are some defense contracts which are out dated , useless and don't do this country much good, but all that the gop wanted to cut... absolutely they weren't legitimate expenditures of our $. Why continue to fund such stuff in the first place? Easier to cut out that which is unnecessary, and then go after the bigger items.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:08 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: The US is considered to be an anathema in the western world with its user pays medical system.

Which is why world leader after world leader comes to the US for the absolute best care in the world, huh?

Hello,

Why does citizen after citizen go to foreign countries for affordable medicine?

What have you proved except that the US health care system is not meeting the needs of the average citizen very well, but that the exceedingly wealthy are happy with it?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:12 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

While I wait for a reply to that, I'll comment on the broader budget issue.

The Democrats are not upset because the budget was decreased. They are upset because budgetary items important to them were removed.

The Republicans would react in much the same way if the budget was slashed by removing items important to them.

--Anthony

We're facing across the board cuts. The Dems are demagoguing the issue, and hoping folks ignore the fact that Pelos failed to even SUBMIT a budget, last year.

This is a very large reason why we're IN this mess.

The items the GOP are targeting are on the chopping block, regardless. It's only a matter of time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I think it might go a long way to convince me that the GOP is serious about cutting the budget and paying down the deficit if they started suggesting cuts that would hurt their own interests and enrage their backers. I'd also like to see talk about eliminating tax escapes that allow a company to earn billions in profits without paying taxes.

--Anthony

Are you talking of Obama's deal w/ G.E ?

And it comes down to the proper function of gov't. I'm sure there are some defense contracts which are out dated , useless and don't do this country much good, but all that the gop wanted to cut... absolutely they weren't legitimate expenditures of our $. Why continue to fund such stuff in the first place? Easier to cut out that which is unnecessary, and then go after the bigger items.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

As far as I know, Obama has no personal deal with G.E. The government does, though. And with other companies, too.

Why the two-step? Why is it easier to cut the other guy's stuff before cutting your own largess? It should theoretically be easiest for the GOP to police themselves before they police what the other party wants.

However, I suspect the GOP seeks to eliminate budgetary items they don't agree with, while leaving the equally unnecessary items that they like on the books.

It's too bad, because they could easily regain their credibility as the party of fiscal responsibility if they simply set the example.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: The US is considered to be an anathema in the western world with its user pays medical system.

Which is why world leader after world leader comes to the US for the absolute best care in the world, huh?

Canadian official comes to U.S. for surgery

CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week. The premier's office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure.

Anthony said it....best system in the world, if you are wealthy. Well, we all know the poor don't deserve a decent system, with their stupidity and being prone to poor choices and all, it would just be a waste.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:29 PM

America loves a winner!

A

Currently , citizens have the right to travel outside our country to get the care they want. Under O care, they won't .

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:37 PM