Horse, Foot and Artillery Fanfic by Hotpoint

Part II of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

I promise not to leave it quite so long until the next chapter

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, May 27, 2005 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
Oh sorry about that. You said that the Indi ship was a Generation behind the Alliance ships and WWI ships were still a creditable naval unit in WWII if properly reequipped and deployed. (Examples: HMS Hood, HIJMS Kongo, HMS Royal Sovereign). I personally draw the generation line at the invention of the Guided Missile.

However if you compare the best US WWI Dreadnought Battleship (Probably Colorado Class) with the best US WWII Cruiser (Alaska class) the armor is slightly less in several areas:

13 1/2" Belt, 18" Turrets, 3 1/2" + 1 1/2" Decks, 16" Conning Tower (Colorado)
vs.
9" Belt, 12 4/5" Turrets, 1 2/5" +4" +5/8" Decks, 10 3/5" Conning Tower (Alaska)

Althogh Alaska had better deck armor (lesson probaly learned from Hood), The Guns are in favor of the Colorado 8 16’’ vs. 9 12’’. However Radar technology is the determining factor of any WWII surface engagement, look at Battle of Surigao Strait, US Radar firecontrol could hit at distances the Japanese couldn’t. It still boils down to the faster ship with more accurate guns agaisnt the slower ship with less accurate guns.

The Alaska was a battlecruiser rather than a cruiser (even the German Pocket Battleships only mounted 11 inch armament). Typical Cruiser armament for most WWII navies were 6 or 8 inch guns which meant they would have to get dangerously close to be a threat to the armour of a Dreadnought (by which time their better fire-control would be less of a factor).

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Friday, May 27, 2005 9:30 AM

Alaska was not a battlecruiser it was in fact a “Large” Cruiser. The battlecruiser design was derived from battleships by reducing their armor to increase speed; the large cruiser was created by taking the cruiser design and adding armor and heavier guns. It was built for the same purpose (killing Cruisers) but the Large Cruiser was made more survivable at the expense of having lighter guns.

Anyways the more conventional cruiser had a more well rounded armament than a dreadnought typically carrying several mounts of torpedoes (considered by many naval tacticians of the time as the “main battery” of ships smaller than a battleship). Even the best WWI dreadnought has deck armor only equal to a WWII cruiser and WWII warships have guns capable of high angle fire, which can exploit this. A cruiser can engage with torpedoes and long-range fire against its deck then if they score sufficient hits they can close in an engage with all guns or back off and shadow until their forces have the advantage. If the dreadnought gets the advantage and closes in it will eat more of that salvo of torpedoes I was talking about.

Again we are dealing with a ship with great speed vs. one without, it becomes like Battle of the River Plate, the Cruiser engage or disngage when it wants to and the dreadnought can’t do anything about that. The Cruiser can shadow and show up forcing the Dreadnought to alter its plans, effectively killing it from an operational perspective.

Yes the Dreadnought can kill the Cruiser but it can’t hope to engage the cruiser, at least on its own terms.

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Friday, May 27, 2005 10:27 AM

Although "officially" Large Cruisers the Alaska Class are almost invariably referred to as being either a Battlecruiser or at least battlecruiser-like in that they were not armed or intended for the role usually given to Cruisers.

The Royal Navy Invincible Class VSTOL Carriers of today were officially called Cruisers too at first (Through-Deck Cruisers actually) but that didn't mean they were Cruisers.

I frankly doubt that a 6 or even 8 inch Cruiser would be able to stand up to a WWI Dreadnought in a gunfight. It would only need to land a small number of hits to really mess up the Cruiser and as for Torpedo runs you'd have to get unpleasantly close to use them effectively and they weren't very accurate or dependable.

As regards the notion of standing off and shadowing, the Cruiser could certainly do that but when you come right down to it the smaller ship can't actually stop the Dreadnought going somewhere it can just irritate the heck out of it.

You mention the Battle of the River Plate but the result of that engagement was more down to the Graf Spee making the error of letting not only Exeter with its 8 inchers but also Ajax and Achilles with their 6 inchers close enough to cause damage. If Captain Langsdorf had stayed clear he could have pounded the Cruisers to bits before they could get close enough to hurt him.

Actually the battle of the River Plate shows the difference in how much damage you can do with bigger guns. Several incoming shells actually bounced off the Graf-Spee whereas her 11 inchers really messed up the poor Exeter. I doubt that many WWII Cruisers would have stood up very well to even a couple of hits from a 14+inch weapon considering what a far less massive 11 inch hit could do to them.

Good discussion though

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
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Friday, May 27, 2005 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
As regards the notion of standing off and shadowing, the Cruiser could certainly do that but when you come right down to it the smaller ship can't actually stop the Dreadnought going somewhere it can just irritate the heck out of it.

Well I wouldn't say it couldn’t stop the Dreadnought from going somewhere. There are incidents where constantly making your self known can force the enemy to do what you want. The submarine USS Seawolf SS-197 did just that to a convoy of Japanese merchant ships when she ran out of torpedoes. Seawolf would sneak in and exchange a few shells and slip away every time the target ship (An armed merchant ship) would try to head for safer waters. Eventually Seawolf forced the merchant ship towards another US submarine, which sunk her.

Also having a ship constantly trailed isn’t much of an effective unit, the ships of the trailing ship’s side know where she is and can avoid or engage when they want.

At The Battle of the River Plate the Graf Spee was out flanked by the British forcing her to divide its fire. Again we have to deal with faster ships vs. slower ships, any attempt to stay clear would have resulted in the faster Light Cruisers and Destroyers out flanking them again. The Graf Spee indeed caused significant damage to the British cruisers but it couldn’t get away from them.

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Friday, May 27, 2005 11:34 AM

Actually it would be truer to say that the Graf Spee flanked herself at the Battle of the River Plate. Apparently Langsdorf thought the ships he saw with Exeter were only Destroyers and believing they must be out there escorting a merchant convoy he went straight for the three of them intending to pound Exeter to pieces then deal with the little "Destroyers"... big mistake!

Anyway getting back to the subject at hand if you'd remember I was originally talking about an actual battle between the two types of vessel as a comparison between the Charybdis and the more modern but less heavily armed Alliance Cruisers so while I'd certainly say an Ally Cruiser could outrun the poor old Battlecruiser it wouldn't fair well in an actual scrap...

... it would just end up scrap

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, May 27, 2005 12:27 PM

Well I still think it still comes down to which side can bring the more advanced system in to battle and know how to use it. The Exocet Missile attacks and the Conqueror torpedo attack (talking about the boat it’s self not the weapon) in the Falklands for example.

Well anyways I look forward to Part III.

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Friday, May 27, 2005 5:45 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO

Where is this fanfic posted? It sounds like something I should engage.

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Friday, May 27, 2005 5:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NumeroCincuentaUno:
Where is this fanfic posted? It sounds like something I should engage.

All of Hotpoints Fanfics:
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Friday, May 27, 2005 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
Well I still think it still comes down to which side can bring the more advanced system in to battle and know how to use it. The Exocet Missile attacks and the Conqueror torpedo attack (talking about the boat it’s self not the weapon) in the Falklands for example.

On the other hand when you look at the Conqueror/Belgrano incident it might also be worth noting that the Royal Navy of 1982 clearly still considered an aging 1930's Cruiser (originally the USS Phoenix) mounting a battery of 15 6inch guns a threat to far more modern warships.

One piece of triva. In her earlier incarnation as the USS Phoenix the ship had been at Pearl Harbor so she started her combat career against propeller driven monoplanes using WWII era torpedoes and finished it against a Nuclear Submarine... which was also as it happened firing WWII era torpedoes!

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:

Well anyways I look forward to Part III.

Glad to hear it

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Saturday, May 28, 2005 8:33 AM

The ARA Belgrano also had four (two twin) Sea Cat SAM launchers and could carry four Helos along with a number of Marines. I think it was more of a threat to the British anphib landing- Helos for landing reinforcements, Guns for NGFS, and SAMs for cover.If that ship got in to shallow waters where subs can't operate it would have been hard to stop.

The majority of the biggest British surface combatant in the Falklands (Type 42 and 82 DDGs) had no anti-ship weapons other than their 4.5 in gun. Their two Country DDGs had four Exocets each. (Some of the Frigates had Exocets too but those ships were death traps.) Basically the Royal Navy had adopted the US Navy doctrine of building ships for Air Defense and Defensive ASW and leave the ASuW to the submarines. So any surface ship designed for ASuW would be a threat.

- Its a problem with differences in doctrine here, I bet a Russian Slava or Kirov could handle both fleets and that Dreadnought!

HMS Conqueror also had more advanced sonar and tracking systems. Unlike most WWII submarine attacks 1st contact was a passive sonar contact curtsey of her spherical or towed sonar array.

Weapons from WWII are still very common. The ammo for the 16 in guns on the Battleships used in the Gulf War where from WWII and some of the ammo used by US Snipers in Iraq today is from WWII.

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Sunday, May 29, 2005 4:53 AM

Part III of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Miracles of stolen military R&D

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 9:27 AM

Part IV of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Who says I always have to be original anyway?

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:43 PM

CANTON

Well now the twitching will stop. . .thanks HP. Be back after a read.

Check out the Browncoat Online Photoalbum. Thank Fray101. http://clik.to/photoverse

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Monday, June 13, 2005 9:13 AM

Part V of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Clichéd storylines? Moi?

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 10:05 AM

Part VI of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Gotta hit the ground running

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, June 24, 2005 9:31 AM

Part VII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

A day in the life...

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:38 AM

Part VIII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

The once and future King

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:21 AM

Part IX of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now finally posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

I'm sorry the update took so long

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:03 PM

SIMONISTICSNAFU

It's so good to see the series again. I'd heard some rumors awhile ago (around November 2005) to the effect that you'd be back in the next month or so, but I generally discounted them....

Anyway, point is, I'm very grateful to you for continuing the series, and I can't wait for River to start putting some hurt on the Alliance.

OORAH!

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonisticSNAFU:
It's so good to see the series again. I'd heard some rumors awhile ago (around November 2005) to the effect that you'd be back in the next month or so, but I generally discounted them....

I was going to be back writing again in November/December but things kept coming up to stop me.

I'm taking two weeks off from work (had to use up some holiday time before April) so I'm planning to spending the time getting a few chapters done.

Glad you like the story

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, February 17, 2006 1:05 AM

Part X of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

This update bought to you a bit quicker than the last

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, February 19, 2006 4:11 AM

Part XI of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Please don't go expecting a new chapter every other day all the time

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:00 AM

Part XII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

It's F U Day

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:41 AM

Part XIII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Hope you're enjoying the story

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:21 AM

Part XIV of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Serenity Valley Wolves Arrroooo!

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:03 AM

Part XV of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Okay just a few more battle scenes (it's a war for crying out loud) then I'll go back to writing the crew okay?

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 11:16 AM

Part XVI of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Okay that's enough ships getting blown up for now

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, March 19, 2006 4:39 AM

Part XVII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Hey I think "Dewdrops" is a cute name

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:45 AM

Part XVIII of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Class warfare?

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Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 11:33 PM

NUTLUCK

More, been following this story since you started it. You just got to finish, not sure i can wait much longer before i hire Jayne to track you down and convince you to write more.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 2:22 AM

Mate your stories are top notch!!!

Keep writing!

I've made a few comments at the end of your last part.

Here's how it might of been http://www.stillflying.net/

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Friday, May 12, 2006 2:32 AM

I have no idea if you got my PMs (I don’t really know if they work) But Id thought Id through a slight dampener on your writing that the Death or Glory cap badge (or motto as its known in the regiment) originated from the 17th Lancers not the 21st

Sorry. The two amalgamated in 1922 and later became the Queens Royal Lancers of today.

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D17b(L).htm

http://www.army.mod.uk/qrl/regimental_badge.htm

But apart from this small fact and that it slightly goes against the grain to hear a British Calvary regiment use terms like 'Battalion' and 'Platoon'

.....

Your writing is amoung the best on the site!

Keep writing Trooper Hotpoint!

Here's how it might of been http://www.stillflying.net/

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Friday, May 12, 2006 2:32 AM

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Sunday, June 4, 2006 10:46 AM

Part XIX of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

'Well what did you expect when you were dealing with a Lancer?'

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 4, 2006 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:
I have no idea if you got my PMs (I don’t really know if they work) But Id thought Id through a slight dampener on your writing that the Death or Glory cap badge (or motto as its known in the regiment) originated from the 17th Lancers not the 21st Sorry. The two amalgamated in 1922 and later became the Queens Royal Lancers of today.

I actually do know this. I choose the 21st rather than the 17th because they were the Regiment that rode at Omdurman (the last great cavalry charge of the British Army) and as you say the 17th/21st did wear the "Motto".

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:

But apart from this small fact and that it slightly goes against the grain to hear a British Calvary regiment use terms like 'Battalion' and 'Platoon' .....

It's not really a "British" Regiment though as much as a 26th Century Independent Colonies one and I never intended it to be organised like a contemporary unit. The mixture of British and American terms is meant to go with the mixing of cultures that is so obvious in the show.

I'd think that some of my historical asides within the text would have shown I do know a bit of military history myself. It's not poor research honestly!

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:
Your writing is amoung the best on the site!

Given the quality of many of the authors here that is high praise indeed. Thankyou

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:

Keep writing Trooper Hotpoint!

I do when I can (lousy rotten real life interfering

)

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, June 4, 2006 11:16 AM

SILENCE

It's about time. Worth the wait. Looking forward to more battles.

**************************
One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

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Monday, June 5, 2006 3:27 AM

Well I did think that it may of just been a lack of looking at the details, since a everything else was so detailed.

As for the mixing of regiments and cultures..... well yes you do have a point there.

Can I put in a request for somekind of ORBAT for the 21st and the 57th, as well as the Independent Army overall.

Here's how it might of been www.stillflying.net/

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Monday, June 5, 2006 7:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WishuponaWash:
Can I put in a request for somekind of ORBAT for the 21st and the 57th, as well as the Independent Army overall.

Okay very roughly:

For the 21st (and other Independent Cavalry Regiments) the fighting strength under the 2522 reorganisation would be

Headquarters Company/Squadron*
3 Armoured Cavalry Battalions

Each Battalion consists of three Companies/Squadrons

Each Company/Squadron is made up of 3 Platoons/Troops* (which themselves consist of 3 Squads)

Squad = 3 Excalibur AFV
Troop/Platoon = 3 Squads (9 AFV total)
Squadron/Company = 3 Troops (27 AFV total)
Battalion = 3 Squadrons/Companies (81 AFV total)
Regiment = 3 Battalions + Headquarters Company (270 AFV total)

Three crew per Excalibur = fighting strength of 810 officers and other ranks

In addition there are other personnel attached in a support role (mechanics/armourers/medics/engineers) plus the crews of the Transport ships pushing the total manpower of an Armoured Regiment well above 1200.

*The names are used interchangably. Some Regiments and/or individual Cavalrymen prefer Squadron/Troop others Company/Platoon

Under the 2522 NMA (New Model Army) combined-arms reorganisation a Cavalry Regiment usually fights alongside two Mechanised Infantry/Panzer Grenadier Regiments plus an Artillery Regiment (self-propelled) as part of a Heavy Armoured Brigade. The Brigade may be split into three Battlegroups of mixed Cavalry, Infantry and Artillery if required. (Horse, Foot and Artillery

)

... and I'll let you find out the rest when I get around to writing a few more chapters

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Monday, June 5, 2006 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Battlegroups of mixed Cavalry, Infantry and Artillery if required. (Horse, Foot and Artillery )

Oh very clever! I wasn't quite sure where that name was coming from.

Can I suggest that one of the infantry units is called the 95th Rifles, with one of the companies commanded by a Captain Sharpe.

Here's how it might of been www.stillflying.net/

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Monday, June 5, 2006 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Battlegroups of mixed Cavalry, Infantry and Artillery if required. (Horse, Foot and Artillery )

Oh very clever! I wasn't quite sure where that name was coming from.

Can I suggest that one of the infantry units is called the 95th Rifles, with one of the companies commanded by a Captain Sharpe.

Here's how it might of been www.stillflying.net/

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Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:26 AM