gabriel tam by wytchcroft

I would not put him as a villain.
From the original shooting draft of "Safe":

Quote:

GABRIEL: River isn't here! We are. And we have to be very careful what we do. This is a government school, Simon. People in our position... it's important that we show support for this government.

SIMON: You're talking about politics? This is about your daughter!

GABRIEL: This is about our lives.

In other words he knew something was up, but rescuing River was a lost cause. Just not possible. They could not do anything for her. They could protect themselves and Simon though.

Also, Gabriel TAM would have a need to conform with society IMO. He also had decided Simon was to be a doctor from a very young age.

Where does River fit in? Some say "many years" in answer to her asking for a source box was a dismissal of her. But that could just be that she was too young.

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Friday, September 21, 2007 12:32 PM

I don't think they were villains, and in fact, that really bugs me in a fic. Even more so when Gabriel is evil but Regan is not. I think they probably had some inkling about what was happening, but were probably scared of River's abilities, and scared of the government.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:46 AM

CBSTEVE

I agree with the other comments, that the Tams are not bad people but are caught up in something they don't understabd, being betrayed by a government they support. Also, as Gabriel makes clear in Safe, he is very concerned about the family and Simon's position in society, wheras Simon doesn't give a hoot if River is in danger. That's where Simon and his father part. Simon is willing to give it all up for River; Gabriel isn't. But some of the fanfic portray him as this psychotic villian who blames Simon for all the family woes. Not how I see him. He's just a man caught up in something he just doesn't quite understand.

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 8:10 AM

One other thing to note is that Gabriel was played as the anti-Mal in "Safe". The opposite of Mal.

One talks pretty but when the going gets tough is in a bind. The other may insult you to your face and have no apparent moral fibre, but in a tough spot will do what is needed.

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:08 AM

a lot of sense to all these posts -

just to add that i'm interested in the corporate side of the man -
and how this might effect the fate of his children.

i see G.Tam as not just being scared simply of the Govt - but specific hostile agencies and individuals.

i also find it interesting that he and simon have the same passion - just different outlets...
Gabriel strives to protect his name and his place "on the board" - Simon strives to protect River.

the lack of communication between them is far from being a simple blame game.

i accept Mal as 'the good parent' symbol in SAFE but the series per se adds more dimensions,
i think...

at least THIS WEEK i do LOL!:)

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 11:57 AM

Quote:
Gabriel strives to protect his name and his place "on the board" - Simon strives to protect River.

Or you can also see it as "Gabriel Protects Simon as River is already a lost cause", while Simon does not think she is.

On the other hand he may really be the devil incarnate... all depends on where you want to go with him.

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:47 PM

I like your first option, NBZ. The latter, however, is simply too easy and unlikely. No one in Firefly was evil incarnate, not even the Operative. Ok, well, maybe Niska...but Gabriel seemed genuinely nice, just not morally strong.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
but Gabriel seemed genuinely nice, just not morally strong.

seemed is just, well, seemed...

i'm sure many viewers had different subjective reactions... and each time i watch the 'letters in code' bit of SAFE i get the FEAR! but... from whom???
(see my thread on simon! LOL)

the moral issue - i agree... but no/one of the tams is faultless i think - for example simon's very quality of single minded devotion can cross many a moral line. (grey area boundary)

stay shiny:)

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Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:36 PM

Yeah, Simon breaks certain laws of morality, just like everyone in the Firefly universe. That's what makes it very real—everyone knowingly messes up. What sets the good people apart from the bad is why they break the law. Is it to preserve the family name (Gabriel, if we believe what he says) or to help a family member (Simon)? I wonder if someone's written a fic where Gabriel did what he did for some honorable purpose that he couldn't tell Simon about. That would be a change.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I like your first option, NBZ. The latter, however, is simply too easy and unlikely. No one in Firefly was evil incarnate, not even the Operative. Ok, well, maybe Niska...but Gabriel seemed genuinely nice, just not morally strong.

I agree with you there. He was designed IMO to be nice but powerless.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:01 AM

'nice' i dunno that any of the Tam's are... nice.

but human - yes.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:54 AM

Yeah, I see Gabriel as a basically decent guy trying to live his comfy wealthy life and getting tied up in the politics. Not inherently bad at all.

However, I do enjoy fics where he's an evil mastermind working for the government. It's a fun play on things.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:10 PM

SPACEANJL

Of course, we never found out who Gabriel worked for, did we?

Maybe it's a paper company...

Seriously, for all we found out, he could be an ad exec for,say, a soft drinks franchise or a coffee company. His nice comfy homeworld has blackout zones where people aren't meant to go. Why? - because someone nicks the stereo? Or because Osiris and it's fab medical facilities are the future equivalent of Chiba? Just walking into the Capital City Penitentiary goes onto a permanent file. I got a sense of very regulated world, and one where if you do what you are supposed to do and don't question it, then everything is easy and pleasant. Most people never feel the need to question, or even realise that there might be a need to.

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I got a sense of very regulated world, and one where if you do what you are supposed to do and don't question it, then everything is easy and pleasant. Most people never feel the need to question, or even realise that there might be a need to.

OH, I have no doubt that Gabriel's world has some serious issues. And maybe he does work for an evil company, so his behavior is very much watched and he tries to follow the rules.

But I don't think this makes him inherently evil. Not every person is able to fight the system. As you say, not everyone is capable of recognizing a flawed system, even if they and theirs are being damaged by it. (A highly relevent issue in the US right now, btw...)

I see Gabriel as flawed, living in denial and unable to accept what Simon tells him. He does care for his children, but he doesn't know how to handle the turn things took, with his neat life suddenly pulled into blackout zones and a rebellious son throwing away a brilliant career. Gabriel probably thought he was helping Simon with tough love, an intervention of sorts. He was trying to be a good dad.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:38 AM

i agree with both the last two posts... it leaves much to explore:)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:37 AM

Nice...well, nice meaning genial, cheerful. I wouldn't mind hanging out with the Gabriel from the first scene of Safe.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:42 AM

"I wouldn't mind hanging out with the Gabriel from the first scene of Safe. "

i think that's why the 'we don't know any Darbanvilles' scene frightens me so... wonky camera angles and all!:)

the first scene seems 'real' - the second... hmmm - and that's how fics get born!

keep flyin:)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:54 AM

PACHELBEL

I've never given this topic any thought, but while reading this thread, I thought: X-Files. On the surface, Mulder, his sister, and his father have similarities to Simon, River, and their father. Anyone explored that?

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pachelbel:
Anyone explored that?

get writing - now:)

(please?)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:09 PM

Wonky camera angles? I think it's a deliberate change in tone, definitely. The first scene is designed to mislead the audience into thinking that Simon and River had a lovely childhood with nice supportive parents, something warm and comforting, that the Alliance took away from them. The second scene, the letters scene, is designed to shock us out of that idea and show us the rotten core that was behind that seemingly homey scene. Because, to all outside viewers, the Tams were (in my opinion at least) a lovely family. The thing is, it was all superficial, and when trials came the true nature of things came out. That is what is disturbing to me about the letters scene, that such poor quality could have hidden under such a nice exterior. It's upsetting, that such apparently good people could fail their children so miserably, and it makes us appreciate Simon more, because even though outwardly he appears arrogant and irritating to most, he has a good core beneath that.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:12 PM

wonky. on purpose though, i get that:)
i think we actually agree here.

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
...Simon more, because even though outwardly he appears arrogant and irritating to most, he has a good core beneath that.

Do you think he got his "core" from good parenting?

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:50 PM

Hmm, where does Simon get his core? I think it comes from many variables. First of all, his personality...I think he is naturally a caring person. His parents seemed to dote on him and care about what he did (they didn't want him to get a dedicated source box because of all the crap on the Cortex), and that probably enhanced his sense of morality and gave him pretty strong self-esteem. His relationship with River, of course, and his choice of career as doctor also, would enhance those aspects of his character that were loving and good. And lastly, but not least important, growing up in the Alliance, far away from the War of Independence that shook many men's faith in men's goodness, Simon would be trained to be a model citizen.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:42 PM

From the earlier flashbacks in Safe, I think it's clear that Simon had a very solid, loving childhood. No matter what happened later, he was raised to believe in himself and to care for others - maybe having a little sister helped with that.

As for Gabriel... I think there are plenty of parents who can be spectacular as long as their children are what they expect. Like parents 50 years ago having their kids get into an interracial marriage, or parents of today whose kids come out of the closet. That may cross a line of the parent's prejudices, and suddenly they become downright unfriendly.

I don't really see the scenes of later Gabriel as chilling. Frustrating and sad, because he's wrong, but I don't think he's intentionally trying to hurt his children. I have parents who are quite good at a similar kind of denial, and though the results haven't always been so good for me, I've learned that it's not any kind of evilness on their part. It's just their limitations as human beings, and follows from the lives they've lived.

Gabriel's a man with a story of his own, and perhaps a battle he's fought to get where he is in life. I think he has his reasons to act as he does, although those may not be the most honorable and heroic. Making him purely evil for no other reason than to bring on Simon angst is overly simplistic, I think, and doesn't take into account the kind father he was once.

Not that cold, calculating Gabriel doesn't make for a fun fic - it surely does!

But I like a more human take on him.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:36 PM

Yes, human. But I don't think that Gabriel was a good man...that is, he acted like a good citizen, but I don't think he cared about people or what was "right" if it didn't benefit him. He probably didn't think about it as distinctly as that, but that was his underlying principle. Gabriel thinks he's doing right, but in the end he's self-serving. Contrast that with Mal, who thinks he's self-serving, but in the end does what's right.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:08 PM

side bar - it's such a pity that we didn't much of REGAN - just a tiny glimpse...

and comparing Gabriel to Mal brings us neatly back to nbz (see above).

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Gabriel thinks he's doing right, but in the end he's self-serving.

I absolutely agree! He's very flawed. But I don't think he intentionally sent his daughter to get her head cut up, and I don't think he's in charge of the evil academy people and actively hunting her. If Gabriel ever encountered Simon and River again, I don't think it'd be a sure thing that he'd turn them in. He might, but he also might be shocked into seeing his mistakes and actually helping her. There is a good man in him somewhere, a man who loves his children. I find that struggle more compelling than painting him as purely evil.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:52 AM

PLATONIST

You're so smart, Mal4prez.

The Tams aren't that much different than any other upper-middle class parents, I know.
They WANT the best for their children, they just don't KNOW what that is.

And they don't listen! ie, Simon's frustration, with them, in Safe.

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:28 AM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:
Originally posted by pachelbel:
Anyone explored that?

get writing - now:)

(please?)

Well, I'm afraid I might write fanfic as well as I draw.

But maybe ... someday ...

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:10 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
It's upsetting, that such apparently good people could fail their children so miserably, and it makes us appreciate Simon more

I agree with that 100%.
The Tam parents are at best idiots, and at worst they're horrible, self-centered parents.
What parents could be so clueless & oblivious to what was happening to their child as to not give a darn about Simon's allegations? They never went to visit here in that place, or thought to? They put their comfort, their status, and Simon's "future" ahead of any concern for their little girl? Even in 500 years I suspect that real "parents' will still want to protect their children and wish only the best for them.

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:27 PM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Gabriel thinks he's doing right, but in the end he's self-serving.
I absolutely agree! He's very flawed....If Gabriel ever encountered Simon and River again, I don't think it'd be a sure thing that he'd turn them in. He might, but he also might be shocked into seeing his mistakes and actually helping her. There is a good man in him somewhere, a man who loves his children. I find that struggle more compelling than painting him as purely evil.

I think that's a laugh. Sorry, mal4prz, but that's the way I see it.

I don't think the Tams are evil, as in criminal mastermind, but I think they're have a petty evilness. Or, at least, Gabriel does. I view Regan as the timid, always told she'd be good for naught for marridge, non-self-confident phony type person(sorry if I have the names mixed up).

I know, I know, this thread is about trying to empathize their good sides, but I'm in a cynical mood today, so just bear with me.

Notice, from Safe, in those early scenes, who Gabriel pays attention to. It's Simon. River barely gets looked at, and then she's patronized. Yes, I know it was a short scene, but I think that emphasises the Chinese cultural influence (I hate the chinese, being a feminist.)

But, to get back to the point (if there is one), the evidence suggests to me that they're good people to have as allies when wading through paperwork, and dealing with politics. I'll admit that. Also, they're not malicious at all. They just want to live their little spoiled lives.

They probably belived what they said to Simon, in that scene when he's confronting his parents with River's letters. Or, if they didn't, they sure wern't going to admit it. Simon and River had to get their intelligence from somewhere, so it's not like they didn't have the brainpower to figure out what was going on. They were just being purposly blind.

Me being cynical, I think at least part of the reason why they wanted Simon to become a doctor was so they could bask in the refleced glory of having a first-class sugion as their son. Can't you imagine them saying "Yes, we always knew dear Simon would make it far?". Ugh.

And I also think they would have turned Simon in. At least, Gabriel would, and Regan would just protest weakly. Remember when Gabriel said "I will not come for you"? He wouldn't be malicious about it, just dissappointed, tsking all the while.

I'll end this rambling post now. Hope you enjoyed it. If you see a point, congradulations, if not, don't feel bad, cause I don't see one lol. I tend to get sidetracked like that (like I suppose I'm doing here!) Forgive me?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

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Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 AM

Quote:
You're so smart, Mal4prez.

**imagine a emoticon of me picking my nose LOL!**

Quote:
The Tams aren't that much different than any other upper-middle class parents, I know.
They WANT the best for their children, they just don't KNOW what that is.

You're so smart! But let me just ramble on and write a post that restates this point several times...

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I think that's a laugh. Sorry, mal4prz, but that's the way I see it.

The really funny thing is that I keep getting in these characterization debates when I agree with people! Seriously, there's nothing in your post I disagree with - the Tams are self-serving, self-focused, phony, shallow people, the kind I'd want to bitch-slap if I met them in real life.

Trying to identify their motives and psychology isn't excusing them, it's just defining all facets of them so they can be written as fully rounded characters. Many really good villians have a reason they act bad, a path they took from wholesome to twisted, and at least some potential for redemption.

Anyway, my viewpoint comes of growing up with parents much like the Tams. Unlike Jongsstraw, I don't believe that all parents know how to put their children first. Mine didn't, no matter that they loved me and wanted to. They just didn't know how. It's taken a lotta years for me to learn to co-exist with them, to see that they don't *mean* the harm they do and they aren't evil underneath. They simply can't be depended on, and I have to accept that. And I'm saying this after having spent a weekend with them and several times wanting to throw things at them and tell them to pull their heads out LOL!

Jongsstraw - if you seriously believe that there are NO parents who want their kids to succeed only for the glory of it, or who are able to turn a blind eye to teenaged suffering, or who will abandon their offspring in a pinch rather than be inconvenienced... well, I wish I lived in your world.

Quote:
They probably belived what they said to Simon, in that scene when he's confronting his parents with River's letters. Or, if they didn't, they sure wern't going to admit it. Simon and River had to get their intelligence from somewhere, so it's not like they didn't have the brainpower to figure out what was going on. They were just being purposly blind.

Have you ever tried to confront someone with this kind of blindness? I have. I think it's a stretch to call it "purposeful". They don't consciously decide to blind themselves, and it's not others they are needing to fool. They need to fool themselves, and you can't break through that. As for intelligence... often, the smarter the person is, the better their brain is at building a delusional cardhouse.

As an aside: There was actually one thing in your post I don't quite agree with, and that's Gabriel's gender preference. I'm as cynical and feminist as they come, but I just don't see it. River wasn't shy about correcting Simon, and Simon easily put playing with her above doing his homework. And patronized? More like teased fondly. I think the scene's focus on the Gabriel/Simon conversation was because the narrative of the episode centered on Simon's relationship with his father. I don't see it as a statement of Chinese anti-female culture.

I could be very well be wrong! If only there was another episode about River's relationship with her parents... *sigh*

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, September 28, 2007 9:48 AM

I agree with you, Mal4Prez, especially on the point of the Tams being blind. I really have to feel for them at least a little in that scene. Yes, we were introduced to the Alliance and the Academy as capable of great evil, but we have to realize that most of the Core thinks of them as benevolent and wonderful. And to them, for the most part, they are. What Simon is telling them is on level to someone coming out today and saying that the US government has been taking all the students in private schools and cutting into their brains and no one knows about it. Would you believe that? Or would you think that your genius son had passed over the edge between brilliance and madness, or perhaps had paranoid schizophrenia? Even if they might believe it, though unless they already suspected something his evidence might very well be something his unstable mind constructed to provide reason for his madness. Of course, I start to lose sympathy for them when all they talk about is Simon's position, and definitely lose it for Gabriel when he tells Simon he won't come for him. It might be a desperate move for Gabriel in hopes that his toughness will bring Simon to his senses, but he really appears cold. Still, I think it's hard to blame the Tams for not automatically believing Simon's story. We don't know how persistent he was, and if he kept trying then they don't have much excuse for not investigating at least, but hindsight is 20/20 and we don't know the whole situation.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:29 PM

RIVERFLAN

Double post, gorramit!

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Friday, September 28, 2007 1:27 PM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Seriously, there's nothing in your post I disagree with - the Tams are self-serving, self-focused, phony, shallow people, the kind I'd want to bitch-slap if I met them in real life.

*insert an applauding emoticon here*
Join the line; I was first, though

Quote:
They don't consciously decide to blind themselves, and it's not others they are needing to fool. They need to fool themselves, and you can't break through that. As for intelligence... often, the smarter the person is, the better their brain is at building a delusional cardhouse.

Good point!

Quote:

As an aside: There was actually one thing in your post I don't quite agree with, and that's Gabriel's gender preference. I'm as cynical and feminist as they come, but I just don't see it. River wasn't shy about correcting Simon, and Simon easily put playing with her above doing his homework. And patronized? More like teased fondly. I think the scene's focus on the Gabriel/Simon conversation was because the narrative of the episode centered on Simon's relationship with his father. I don't see it as a statement of Chinese anti-female culture.

I could be very well be wrong! If only there was another episode about River's relationship with her parents... *sigh*

It could be that I'm just over-reacting. I do, however, absolutely agree with the need for another episode!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Friday, September 28, 2007 8:19 PM

RIELPRYN

Dropping out of years of lurkerdom to make a minor point about the scene in the beginning of Safe. I don't think that Gabriel was being intentionally patronizing to River, or that he favored his son over his daughter due to some ancient inane sexism.

To me it was a father seeing his little girl as his little girl. Kinda like how, my dad on occation still treats me like I'm 5 as opposed to 25.

(I hope that came out coherent, I'm typing on an hr of sleep in the last two days)

Gabriel Pryn
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
Tennessee Browncoats:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/tennesseebrowncoats/

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Monday, October 8, 2007 6:57 AM

SPACEANJL

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
side bar - it's such a pity that we didn't much of REGAN - just a tiny glimpse...

B]

I had a long post a few days ago, and the machine ate it! It was very brilliant, and now I can't remember most of it.

Regan is interesting. A slightly brittle woman of a certain age, who cannot admit that anything in her perfect life might be wrong, because what's left? They can't allow themselves to realise that there is a hollowness, or a problem, because there is nothing to put in the gap. And I had a take on her...

“Why would I want to go back?” River shocks him. The question is sharp, looks for an answer. “Pretty doll. Tired of dancing at dinner parties. Talks of the bad things that we pretend aren’t there. Make her sleep.” Her head lolls suddenly, eyes glazed. “Poor little doll, let her sit in the sun and dream of stars. Push her chair out of the wind, and mind she doesn’t spill tea on her dress.” The tone is purely their mother’s. Head snaps up again. “No place there. Except, “ and her hand lashes out, stops against his neck, feather-light, “this.”

Oh, and nobody got my 'Heroes' nod...

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Thursday, October 11, 2007 2:56 AM