Characterising Kaylee by nbz

Firstly, I agree wholeheartedly that Simon is not Kaylee's only priority, and certainly not marriage with him. A "future" with Simon doesn't necessarily mean marriage. I don't think Kaylee would consciously think like that. I do think, though, that post BDM Simon thinks like that, and I think that if he asked Kaylee to marry him, she might very well say yes. It would depend on where, when, and how, of course, but I think her feelings have progressed to a level where she would contemplate spending her life with him.

But not because he's the perfect romantic hero. Good grief no! In fact, I can name two dozen other fictional men that are more perfect then all the ones in Firefly combined. But when it comes to Firefly, you can't judge men by our world's standards. In the Firefly 'verse, there are very few good men, and no perfect ones. Other than the men on Serenity (excluding Jayne), who else have we seen with a strong character? And when you look at those men, Wash has a strong character (but he's married), Book has a strong character (but he's old), and Mal, though he usually ends up making the right choice, is certainly usually on very grey moral grounds. Simon, for all his faults, is probably the "best" man on the crew and in the 'verse that the BDHs traverse. I don't doubt that there are other good men that we haven't met, but I do think that they are few and far between. And for a young, single woman, Simon is probably the best bet. He'd be incredibly loyal, affectionate, considerate, and with a topping of good looks and intelligence. Sure, he's got some arrogance, a boatload of communication problems, and maybe even a slight mean streak, but when you look at the other men, is it so unlikely that Kaylee would want to stick with him for longer than a short fling?

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:37 AM

I would say Simon is the "best" in morals because he does not have to make the choices.

It would be interesting to read something where he ponders over the few choices he has made.

1. He rescued River. Chances are every other kid in that place was killed when the Operative closed the facility. He did not stop to rescue every other little darling (he would have if it was fanfic. Of that I am certain.).

2. He decided to take Mal's offer to stay on Serenity. There is a chance that most if not all their friends are now dead because of that.

3. When he decided to leave Serenity, they stepped straight into a trap, which resulted in the end of #2.

He has got a moral fibre, but it has not been tested beyond what he would do for a sibling he loved in a situation where he had no other obligations apart from to himself. it leaves a lot of room to explore his character.

Imagine he was taken on a job which involved a shoot out. Would he help those they shot? Why?

A second question is in the "Dead or Alive" shooting script that was not used. If he had to help an alliance officer who may identify him and River, where would he stand? (the script left it to the viewer to decide whether the officer dies of his injuries of because of Simon.)

He is an interesting character to explore. The only thing I would say we know for sure is that he would do almost anything for River (but is there a limit to that too?).

As for the pairing with Kaylee, the thing (I think) we more or less disagree on is whether Kaylee has already jumped in both feet or not. (That quip by Kaylee - was it just for humour, or rather what she was really thinking about?). By all means it could be the deep love they write poems about, but we were not there in the series or the BDM. If/when they get there would have to be down to the story and how well it is written.

(saying that I rarely read fic focussing on him and Kaylee as these stories lack "power". Neither of these two the ones who wield it or make the big decisions. At the same time a lot of the angst is totally artificial IMO.)

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:57 AM

Now see, I always assumed that the underground who helped Simon get River out either a) rescued other students at the same time as Simon was getting River or b) were a group who often helped people get their relatives out of that Academy, and so Simon didn't need to think about everyone. But only in bad fanfic would he have rescued them all...he's smart enough to know what he can do and what he can't, and not just help people because he wants to, because it might compromise his other responsibilities. But then, we saw what he did in Ariel, risking his and River's lives to help that dying patient. Sure, River might not have allowed him to do otherwise, but we'll never know, because he took the risk. And we saw him help his enemies in Safe, as well. I think if it came down to it, he would help the Alliance (if not people like Doctor Mathias), because "being a doctor is more to him than money".

I don't see how Mal asking them to stay on Serenity is Simon's fault. The crew of Serenity was Mal's responsibility...he put them at risk, not Simon.

I think I disagree with the idea that Simon's moral fibre has not been tested. Instead, I would say that it has been, to the utmost. He has shown that he takes care of his priorities through thick and thin, even if it may lead to his death. What has not been tested is what he would do when he has more than a couple priorities, or conflicting ones. We saw the beginnings of that in Objects in Space, and I think we would have seen more. I don't think that he would think twice about the decisions you mention, because I don't think they were really hard moral choices. But I do think there would have been times where he was tested if the show had gone on.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:58 AM

Not again...

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:58 AM

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:05 AM

Quote:
But only in bad fanfic would he have rescued them all...

Good distinction. I have read similar stuff. (another being Simon needing to be ordered to rest when there is a disaster situation. The guy is a trained surgeon. If anyone, he will know when his tiredness will hinder rather than help - and he would have to be a bad doctor to not rest when needed.)

Quote:
I don't see how Mal asking them to stay on Serenity is Simon's fault. The crew of Serenity was Mal's responsibility...he put them at risk, not Simon.

But Simon also decided to stay. And it was him that chose the disreputable ship... I am not saying it is all the fault of Simon, but his decisions have cost lives. And these were not even of a moral grey area type!

His Ariel bit did not IMO compromise him. Him not helping was a greater chance of fuss by River. He did help the sick in "Safe" though.

Yeah, my questions were kind of lame. In that we all (think we) know what he would do. But lets say he has a child with Kaylee, then after that there is trouble with River and the alliance, would he still take the same risks?

We know he is totally committed to River at the moment. That does not mean he is morally clear at all. How far would he go to help her?

As you said it is more of when there is more than one priority to consider that it is tricky. But that is what I call the moral grey area. if there is only one priority, he will do what is needed.

The thing about this type of discussion is that it can take thousands of words, but if you put it into fic, it would probably be a half a line!

I still don't think his moral fortitude has been tested. If it was I personally do not think he would too well. Not badly either by any standards. Just need the right test.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

The thing about this type of discussion is that it can take thousands of words, but if you put it into fic, it would probably be a half a line!

i wish!:) (oh wait, a GOOD fic - ha ha!)

your reply mirrors my thinking uncannily.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:06 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

Simon is never going to have a serious relationship with anybody who would be caught deadin that pink dress, much less anybody who (as Zoe said about Serenity) paid money for it deliberately. And Kaylee is never going to have a serious relationship with anybody who thinks Serenity is le-se.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:52 AM

I think I pretty much agree with you NBZ...it's just some minor distinctions. I often equate the Simon/River/Kaylee interaction with the typical father/child/wife scenario. If both the child and wife are in danger, who will the father save? If both River and Kaylee are in danger, who would Simon save?

But I don't think that it's decisions like that that show moral fortitude (they're just angsty and difficult choices), it's more, like you said, will I kill innocents to protect those I love? If Simon thought the only way to keep River safe was to kill someone innocent (or mostly so), would he do it? We can't really be sure, because Joss never put Simon in that kind of position. So far, he's made the pretty clear choices: I think we all agree that stealing from the government who tortured your sister is not that morally shady, likewise killing people who are trying to kill you. So we really can have very little idea what he would do if the choices were completely grey.

I agree with your point about joining Serenity costing lives, I just don't see it as a real reason to blame Simon...they all had free will, and chose to associate with him, after he made it perfectly clear what risks they would be taking. He would have been ungrateful not to accept their help after that. I think that mostly frees him from having to take blame, though I think that if he thought hard about it, he would blame himself, even if he wouldn't do it differently if he had known.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 11:21 AM

You are right. we are almost on the same plane of thought. Slight differences, distinctions and what we consider important and it seems we come to different outcomes.

It is not about blame but about feeling guilty.

As an example I do think that post BDM, River will feel guilt over surviving when others perished. Mal probably the same after the War. He survived when those he ordered to do their jobs died. Maybe the same about Wash too.

If Simon was a bad person he would never feel bad for things he had to do. But he is a goody who could not even shoot Agent Dobson when his sisters freedom depended on it... I think he will feel a little bad over what it has cost others.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 11:38 AM

Yup, definite guilt. Just like Kaylee will always feel guilty for not shooting those guys in War Stories, even though she has little reason (if any) to.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, September 24, 2007 2:00 AM

SPACEANJL

Now, I write mostly canon post-BDM fic, so I have got Simon and Kaylee in a relationship that takes its cues from the movie - ie, consummated physically. However, this does not mean that all the issues are ironed out. There is still tension because of Simon's need to care for River (who doesn't need quite the 24-7 she did, and gets a bit stroppy in her turn about it.)

In fact, I think Simon is the one who would start to think about long-term settling etc, before Kaylee does. I think he comes from a background with rather rigid ideas about what is 'proper'. If he allows himself to get drawn into a relationship, he may be keener to settle than she is. (Mal4prez, I note you quoted me, with rather better grammar!)

The big stumbling block is going to be whether Simon leaves 'Serenity'. He might want to be dirtside and doctoring, but River is at home on that ship. And so is Kaylee. If he wants to leave, he could find himself with both his womenfolk ganging up against him. And wouldn't that be fun? (I did tackle this, in 'Zen...'; Simon has the chance to take a hospital post, and discovers that he is the only one who would even think of leaving the ship. After all, it's both home and job to Kaylee. I can see her being quite insulted at the idea of just dropping it like that.)

The guilt thing is interesting - I think guilt is a luxury these people can't afford. Keep the demons caged, because the slightest hesiation could get you dead. Feeling guilty about all those you couldn't save would have to be well in check for a doctor, or he couldn't function. I think Simon's ability to shut himself off is a professional instinct that spills over, and could make him very useful.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:14 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
(Mal4prez, I note you quoted me, with rather better grammar!)

Uh, I'm totally missing this! If I pseudo-quoted and failed to credit, oops! Sorry!

Merryk - After all these posts, I think we basically agree. Just viewing it from different sides or something like that.

NBZ - re Simon dealing with violence - someone had a fic going that they haven't updated in a long time *coughcough homespun coughcough rabbithole cough* whoa - excuse me! It had a nice bit of Simon faced with Mal's use of violence, and then the poor doctor gets his own trigger finger working and has to deal with the consequences. Boy, I wish we had more of that fic!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:17 PM

in ariel his knee is wicked accurate...

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:35 AM

LOL! Yes, but he didn't actually kill him. Same in the beginning of BDM. I wonder if he actually got a Reaver at the end. Same with Kaylee. Do those two ever kill?

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:48 PM

RIVERFLAN

Here's my message:

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
My take on Kaylee -

She comes from a dusty, poor world (evidence - Mal calls it 'a rock' in OoG, and there isn't a job there for them. There isn't much work, full stop.) So, she has spent her life in a small town. I know other folks see her as being one of a large family, but I think she might be an only, so she takes the 'son' role in helping her father, in addition to being girly.

She's comfortable with herself to a certain extent, but she hasn't had experience of Core living, and sees it as glamorous. A small town girl hankering after the bright lights of the big city.

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
See, now, Simon is a complete idiot when it comes to talking to Kaylee, because he so wants to get it right.

And she, of course, is overly sensitive to what he says because she wants him to get it right, too.

I don't think Simon comes from a place or a background with a great deal of displayed and open affection. If you take on board that idea of the Sinatic influence in the culture, then there probably was a great deal of pressure to perform and conform, especially as the son.

Kaylee, on the other hand, has never been under any pressure not to display exactly what she feels.

It's the cultural clash between Core and Rim worlds.

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Kaylee shortsighted? You know, that's probably one of the best one-word descriptions of her. She is always thinking of the here and now. When things are good, she's good, and when things are bad, if she can't find something good in the moment, she's down. She'd be down a lot if she didn't also have a knack for finding the good in everything. This trait reaches over into her relationship with Simon as well. She wants him to be willing to commit to a physical relationship right then, but she also wants an emotional attachment, and anything he says that hints otherwise puts her off.

But then, if Kaylee was long-sighted, and able to keep in check her desires and be cheerful all the time, she'd be a Mary Sue and frankly uninteresting.

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
I figured Tracy for "Simon lite". At first glance he's good-looking, brave (Cap'n old army buddy), loyal to his family, smart-ish, and running for his life; sounds like Simon to me. At the same time, Tracy's from a Rim planet background that Kaylee can relate to, seems to share Kaylee's basically cheerful disposition, and doesn't have Simon's baggage. I can absolutely see how a hurt and frustrated Kaylee could get a-flutter for someone who is close to Simon, but more approachable.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I see part of the problem - let me note that I tend to live in the pre-BDM verse, because I think Joss was forced into many shortcuts with the movie and, frankly, I don't like them all. I don't blame Joss, he had no other way to get us the story. So I don't disagree that S/K could become a thing, but I'm caught up in where they are in the series and the path they'd have taken to get together if there'd been time.

Anyhoo, I don't think Simon ever chose or intended to talk about himself all the time, and I'm sure that Kaylee is just fine to encourage it because she's all smitten. But Simon clearly doesn't have the basic curiousity about other people that would lead to him asking Kaylee about herself, not that we've seen. He doesn't have a - "Wow, she's incredible, I have to know more about her!" attitude. I think he will develop it in time, but he doesn't have it in the series, or even in the movie, till nearly dying gives him a push. Near the beginning, he was going to leave the ship, and wasn't at all responsive to her "Not that you ... spit" line. He was in his own world, worrying his own worries.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:
Kaylee's obviously got high standards...

Bester?

LOL!

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
fantastic thread!
* i suspect that, like most of us, you like Serenity but LOVE firefly...

Absolutely right, at least in my case

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I think there’s plenty to suggest that she has other priorities. And, really, I think it’s part of her naivete and lust for adventure that she’s not too worried about the long term future. She has a ship she loves, a captain she admires and trusts, and she’s traveling the verse. If she could add frequent onboard sex and hand-holding with the shiny fancy doctor into the mix she’d be a pig in mud. But I just don’t see that she’s put all her hopes and desires into him, to the exclusion of all else.

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I think I disagree with the idea that Simon's moral fibre has not been tested. Instead, I would say that it has been, to the utmost. He has shown that he takes care of his priorities through thick and thin, even if it may lead to his death. What has not been tested is what he would do when he has more than a couple priorities, or conflicting ones. We saw the beginnings of that in Objects in Space, and I think we would have seen more. I don't think that he would think twice about the decisions you mention, because I don't think they were really hard moral choices. But I do think there would have been times where he was tested if the show had gone on.

Good points, everyone. Finally, last but not least (to explain this insanely long post, I was bored. I tend to do stuff like this when I'm bored):

Quote:
Originally posted by Mobbex:
Yes! I agree 100%.

And I can't think of anything to add either, you pretty much covered it all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Do those two ever kill?

Fillion and tudyk say NOT - in the commentary to War Stories - leastways not kaylee...

it's a great commentary:)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Here's my message:

I was bored. I tend to do stuff like this when I'm bored):

don't be bored sweetie - try the pitch n toss with mal at serenity's official site:) works for me!
http://serenitymovie.com
- too easy y'say?- oh yeh? just TRY... HA HA HA!

shiny

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:12 PM

Oh, I know that in the series they don't...We see at least Simon fire at the Reavers in the BDM, but we don't actually see him hit one.

My personal theory is that he and/or Kaylee would have had an episode in future seasons of Firefly where they actually had to kill. Their characters are both so life-loving, so peaceful, it would have been very heavy development for them.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:18 PM

Kaylee definitely does kill (Reavers pop out of a high window pane on the left side if I remember correctly).

When watching the scene again to see if Simon does, I fell asleep.

I do have it on good authority though that he too does kill Reavers in that fight.

(because I asked the same question on stillflying.net.)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:21 PM

LOL! yeh i just cued it (the scene) up to check - and you're right!:)

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Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:50 PM

Hmm, I just watched all the fight scenes, and you only see a very short shot of Simon holding a gun. Kaylee does hit a Reaver, but considering the angle he's at and the angle she fires at, and that that battle is rather hectic, it's hard to tell anything for sure. Considering Kaylee's non-existant proficiency with a gun, I'll go with "she was lucky to actually hit one", and still hold that she hasn't killed anyone yet.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:52 AM

aw crap. i'll go check again!:)

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:29 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

bump

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:00 PM

xie xie to wytchcroft for showing me this thread! *mudders milk toast* so shiny! I've just spent an hour reading all of the posts and I have to say: I am very much impressed that I can't thnink of any to add right now. Heehee. Lemme mull it over some and then it'll come to me.^^ But for the moment, here's a mudders milk toast to a great discussion! *cheers!*

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I could not read this whole thread, maybe later. Sorry, I find it preposterous to assume these things about Kaylee.

Her interest in Companions are based upon her view of "LOVE" and all that - I think she has something of a fairytale hope for the existance of love, much like many women have.
The insults she endures are mostly based upon the conflicting stereotypes of "mechanic" and "hottie" or "woman". Other insults, like from Jayne in Pilot are about her hitting on Simon, but also based upon the conflicting stereotypes.
Engines and such make her hot, yet she would not commit to being crew until getting permission from her parents (whether or not they exist, you cynics).
She wants Simon because she needs sex (working around the engine room all day), and Mal and Jayne don't seem available (Mal) or suitably respectful (Jayne). Although I've wondered about Wash, being that they alone stay with the getaway craft while the others go to do theiving and such. Even if she seduced Wash, it wouldn't be due to ambition. Simple sex and torch carrying are all her interest in roping in Simon.
Her scene with Jubal was about the implied threat of sexual depravities, not ambition.

I can't imagine your suppositions.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 2:54 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I could not read this whole thread, maybe later. Sorry, I find it preposterous to assume these things about Kaylee.

Her interest in Companions are based upon her view of "LOVE" and all that - I think she has something of a fairytale hope for the existance of love, much like many women have.
The insults she endures are mostly based upon the conflicting stereotypes of "mechanic" and "hottie" or "woman". Other insults, like from Jayne in Pilot are about her hitting on Simon, but also based upon the conflicting stereotypes.
Engines and such make her hot, yet she would not commit to being crew until getting permission from her parents (whether or not they exist, you cynics).
She wants Simon because she needs sex (working around the engine room all day), and Mal and Jayne don't seem available (Mal) or suitably respectful (Jayne). Although I've wondered about Wash, being that they alone stay with the getaway craft while the others go to do theiving and such. Even if she seduced Wash, it wouldn't be due to ambition. Simple sex and torch carrying are all her interest in roping in Simon.
Her scene with Jubal was about the implied threat of sexual depravities, not ambition.

I can't imagine your suppositions.

But look at the insults she perceives to come from Simon and the one she gets from Mal. They are all about status.

He insults Serenity because he's frustrated with his entire situation, and all she focuses on is that he feels himself above the ship.

Mal says she'd look like a sheep on its hind legs in a pretty dress, and she's completely mortified.

Simon says he "would never.. not with Kaylee" in Jaynestown and she doesn't even attempt to look at the situation. All she sees is a rejection of herself as not good enough.

Simon says she's the only girl on the ship and she's immediately angry at being titled "not special enough".

All those imply a "not enough". Kaylee has lots of status anxiety, which is tied to a certain amount of ambition, because if she had none, she would not care to get angry.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:26 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

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Friday, October 26, 2007 4:26 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

uh, seriously guys... have you talked to women lately? Have you ever met a woman who did not feel insulted when you implied that she's not pretty or special?

Quote:
He insults Serenity because he's frustrated with his entire situation, and all she focuses on is that he feels himself above the ship.

actually, didn't she say that if Simon thought that it was such a crappy life at the ass-end of the verse, then he couldn't well respect those who chose it? (or something like that) So she thinks that Simon is implying that their life is not 'special' out in the rim. I don't think it was about Kaylee's attachment to the ship. I think it was about them, their crew as a whole. Simon practically insulted her friends. I think Simon was lucky not to have been talking to Zoe at that time because he surely would have been slugged. (or not, Zoe kinda boils inside)

Quote:
Mal says she'd look like a sheep on its hind legs in a pretty dress, and she's completely mortified.

ever tried telling that to a girlfriend/sister/daughter/wife? it's not kaylee overreacting; it's kaylee reacting as a woman. not all women are vain, sure. but here is someone who is stuck in an otherwise man's job, covered in engine grease all day, and the moment she dreams of owning a pretty dress her insensitive polyp of a captain tells her she'd look ridiculous in it. Try telling that to any woman and let's see if you don't get the look as well. Regardless of ambition, manipulation, or whatever, if you insult a woman's femininity, you're soooo in trouble.

Quote:
Simon says he "would never.. not with Kaylee" in Jaynestown and she doesn't even attempt to look at the situation. All she sees is a rejection of herself as not good enough.

Simon says she's the only girl on the ship and she's immediately angry at being titled "not special enough".

Huh. Everyone knows that being tagged as the last person in the world to be with is insulting. And to say that to someone who's nothing but be nice to you (and you know has been harboring a crush on you. how dense do you have to be to pick up on that?) is really uncalled for. Some women would find Simon's fumbling attempts at compliments cute, but then, Kaylee is a bit less experienced than them. I agree with a poster earlier when he said that kaylee has preconceived notions about people and when they don't conform to those notions, she gets pissed. IMO for Kaylee, Simon is from the Core worlds, where people are civilized and smooth-talking. Hence, it's either he intended to insult her, or he truly is an alien.

About Jaynestown, if someone told you that they'll never do it with you, won't that piss you off? Even if that someone is a person you'd don't even like, and he tells you "nuh-uh. ew!", you are liable to give him a fist to the mouth. (or settle for a well-pronounced Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh huong-tze fuh ur-tze. depends on the girl's violence tendency).
Again, she took it personally because gentlemen aren't supposed to do that and Simon is supposed to be a gentleman. I know it was not what Simon meant and Kaylee should understand that, but Kaylee is not exactly understanding when it comes to insults. I think it's one thing she can't find the sunny side of. Again, not because she's ambitious, but more like because she cannot take it when someone says something mean to another person (ie, Banning from Shindig, the Alliance officer from Bushwacked).

To tell the truth, I admire Kaylee for being able to show that these statements hurt her. I don't agree that Kaylee is ambitious (though NBZ did have very swaying arguments!). She wouldn't have been pissed at Simon in Safe if that were the case (because if she was ambitious, she'd be agreeing with him). I think she content with where she was, happy that she's doing work where her talents are appreciated (and waaaay useful than it would have been on that rock-planet), happy that she's surrounded by people she liked and admired. IMO her attraction to Simon is not only because she needed sex (er hello twixting nethers with batteries!) but because she liked his company and they get along well. IMO she liked Simon because of who he is, and not what he represented. Same with Inara. Her curiosity about Companionship (is that the right term?)is really just curiosity. And Companioning (can we use that as a verb?

)is really something we are all curious about. Doesn't mean we all wanna be Companions. Rather, we are amazed at the glam and mystery of it.

Somehow, an ambitious, manipulative Kaylee is just a bit out of character for me. Short-sighted, yes. Though the term I like is in the moment.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:17 AM

AGENTROUKA

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Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:
uh, seriously guys... have you talked to women lately? Have you ever met a woman who did not feel insulted when you implied that she's not pretty or special?

I am a woman. I think she's overreacting. Because she is insecure.

Besides, he never did says that she is not pretty or special. He just stated the plain truth - in a joking tone, mind - that Kaylee is currently the only available woman on the ship.

That exchange from "The Message" could have very easily been recognized as a joke by someone who is nervous. Nervous, perhaps because Kaylee asked for a compliment. Context plays a big role, there, and Kaylee ignores that completely, acting as if Simon is required to return her crush and woo her in just the right way.

In a way, it could be argued, she is putting pressure on him because HE is the "only boy in the world".

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He insults Serenity because he's frustrated with his entire situation, and all she focuses on is that he feels himself above the ship.

actually, didn't she say that if Simon thought that it was such a crappy life at the ass-end of the verse, then he couldn't well respect those who chose it? (or something like that) So she thinks that Simon is implying that their life is not 'special' out in the rim. I don't think it was about Kaylee's attachment to the ship. I think it was about them, their crew as a whole. Simon practically insulted her friends.

I never said it was about her attachment to the ship, really, so you're not getting an argument from me. It was, however, about status.

He, in her eyes, must find their lifestyle great. If he doesn't, he immediately must be looking down on them all. She could have calmly told him to go packing if he had a better offer elsewhere, just to give an alternative reaction, but Kaylee gets defensive instead. She is insulted because the judgment of the (formerly) socially advanced Simon matters to her.

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Mal says she'd look like a sheep on its hind legs in a pretty dress, and she's completely mortified.

ever tried telling that to a girlfriend/sister/daughter/wife? it's not kaylee overreacting; it's kaylee reacting as a woman.

Correction: She's reacting like a little girl, not like a woman. She's running off pouting. Not eye-rolling, not standing up forherself - pouting.

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not all women are vain, sure. but here is someone who is stuck in an otherwise man's job, covered in engine grease all day, and the moment she dreams of owning a pretty dress her insensitive polyp of a captain tells her she'd look ridiculous in it. Try telling that to any woman and let's see if you don't get the look as well. Regardless of ambition, manipulation, or whatever, if you insult a woman's femininity, you're soooo in trouble.

Mal would likely not have said it about the dress she wore in the flashback in "Out of Gas". He knows Kaylee's a girl through and through and he didn't insult that about her. It was about the fanciness of the dress. It's impracticality. It's luxury.

Kaylee can wear a dress but not a fancy one. That's the insult she rightfully perceived. Otherwise Mal could have gotten her a pair of earrings and gotten it over with. It had to be THAT dress, though. The unattainable one.

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Simon says he "would never.. not with Kaylee" in Jaynestown and she doesn't even attempt to look at the situation. All she sees is a rejection of herself as not good enough.

Simon says she's the only girl on the ship and she's immediately angry at being titled "not special enough".

Huh. Everyone knows that being tagged as the last person in the world to be with is insulting.

Again I point at the context, see above.

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And to say that to someone who's nothing but be nice to you (and you know has been harboring a crush on you. how dense do you have to be to pick up on that?) is really uncalled for.

What if her crush - and the pressure she puts on him with it - actually make him uncomfortable? He has a LOT of things to worry about and wooing Kaylee is likely not his top priority but she tends to act like it should be.

She's not "nothing but nice" to him. Whenever he doesn't fulfill her expectations, she drops him like a hot potato, unless he ends up getting hurt like in "Jaynestown".

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Some women would find Simon's fumbling attempts at compliments cute, but then, Kaylee is a bit less experienced than them.

Kaylee... inexperienced... Hmm. I'll give that she hasn't had many serious relationships yet, or any, perhaps, but she's flirted with many and slept with quite a few, without doubt, and she's at no stage beyond that with Simon.

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I agree with a poster earlier when he said that kaylee has preconceived notions about people and when they don't conform to those notions, she gets pissed. IMO for Kaylee, Simon is from the Core worlds, where people are civilized and smooth-talking. Hence, it's either he intended to
insult her, or he truly is an alien.

Which, however, implies that she is not actually seeing Simon as an individual, but rather as a representation of a Core Gentleman, which does nothing to push aside the ambition issue. Sure, she thinks he's beautiful and wants his body, but if that was all, she wouldn't have to focus on his Core upbringing her HER expectations of it so very much.

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About Jaynestown, if someone told you that they'll never do it with you, won't that piss you off?

Does she, though, bother to consider the possibility that Mal was just towering over him like he ruined his little baby, though, and that this might have made him stutter? Not once. Insult is her first and only thought.

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Again, she took it personally because gentlemen aren't supposed to do that and Simon is supposed to be a gentleman. I know it was not what Simon meant and Kaylee should understand that, but Kaylee is not exactly understanding when it comes to insults.

Exactly. She's very focused on her own insecurity, which arises from needing to compare, which arises from ambition. A need to fit a certain expected model of success in her mind, which includes approval from Simon, the Core Gentleman.

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I don't agree that Kaylee is ambitious (though NBZ did have very swaying arguments!). She wouldn't have been pissed at Simon in Safe if that were the case (because if she was ambitious, she'd be agreeing with him).

Not necessarily. Ambition doesn't mean pretending to be something you're not, but it does include wanting approval from your target group.

If I had the ambition to become a recognized art historian, I'd want the approval of recognized art historians, which doesn't mean I'd readily agree if one of them insulted a paper I am very proud of.

Kaylee doesn't necessarily want to be a rich Core woman, but she idealizes this group and wouldn't mind being part of her idea of it. The glamor is what she wants.

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Somehow, an ambitious, manipulative Kaylee is just a bit out of character for me. Short-sighted, yes. Though the term I like is in the moment.

No one said manipulative, though!! Ambition is not in itself a negative word. It can lead to negative behaviors, but it's not necessarily bad. Just proclaims a focus on a goal, wishy-washy or unattainable as that may be.

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Friday, October 26, 2007 5:49 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:
uh, seriously guys... have you talked to women lately? Have you ever met a woman who did not feel insulted when you implied that she's not pretty or special?

I have to say, you're going with a stereotype which - thank goodness - don't apply to the Jossverse. I'd be so much happier if you'd worded it: have you ever met a *person* who didn't feel insulted when you implied that he/she wasn't attractive or special? I think that's a bit more applicable...

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I don't think it was about Kaylee's attachment to the ship. I think it was about them, their crew as a whole.

Hmm. I think she took that very much as a comment about herself, a further bit of sting added to her poor taste (in Simon's view, though of course he didn't know he was judging her...) re the "rich" plate. When she says "them as choose it," I don't think she's thinking of anyone but herself, and Simon's view of her personally.

Now, if he'd said something like that in front of Zoe, I don't think she'd have popped him or anything. She might have snarked at him, but she's clear-eyed enough to see that Simon's just clueless about some things. Kaylee's can't see that. She does get a bit self-focused around him - everything he says is about *her*.

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but here is someone who is stuck in an otherwise man's job, covered in engine grease all day, and the moment she dreams of owning a pretty dress her insensitive polyp of a captain tells her she'd look ridiculous in it. Try telling that to any woman and let's see if you don't get the look as well.

uhhh... I am very much a woman, and I wouldn't act this way. You're again making gender assumptions that don't apply in this verse... When Kaylee showed up and fixed the engine in OoG, did Mal do or say anything to suggest that a mere girl shouldn't be so good with machines? I mean, I see your point about how she might want to get all pretty, but the referral to *the look* makes me shudder. In a bad way. It's a trite assumed gender role: men are insensitive, women are sensitive and give *the look* when those silly men trip up. Ew! Take me back to Joss's verse where these stereotypical he/she behaviors only exist to be made fun of!

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with - many people (male or female

) would be insulted by the things Simon says. But I think Kaylee's inability to recognize that he's just a bungler, and he doesn't *mean* to offend, is because she has him so pedestal-ed. She doesn't give him space to be imperfect, because she's stuck in her own insecurity and can't see that he's just as much a flawed human as she is.

I sort of agree that she isn't "ambitious" as you use the word. I don't think she's manipulative, or intentionally trying to use people in any way. To her credit, the final judgement call for Kaylee is the actual character of a person. If Simon'd turned out to be a real asshole, she wouldn't have kept admiring him, no matter how fancified or pretty he was.

But I do see her as giving him the benefit of the doubt from the very beginning for superficial reasons. She was drawn to his good looks, manners, and experience in the upperclass of the verse. I don't think this makes Kaylee a bad person - she just wants to know how the "other half" lives, and be near it, just like many people from the lower classes would. It's natural, but it is a source of blindness in her. To me, it makes her more interesting, that she isn't perfect and blameless as to the awkwardness of her relationship with Simon.

Let's just not be so quick to say that her reactions are typical of women. That's sooo not true.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, October 26, 2007 2:51 PM