Zoe by wytchcroft

BLUE SUN ROOM

Zoe

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Saturday, October 13, 2007 08:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4191
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Friday, September 14, 2007 1:06 PM

ok so - deep breath - Zoe...

Simon may be secretive - he may have mystery...

kaylee may be cookie dough.

but Zoe... who is she - this most enigmatic of the crew...

we know she doesn't like cooking - we see her in action in war stories -
but again she plays her cards close to her chest.

I love the warmth she shares with Inara in Trash.

but - so much of Zoe is keeping still - or is filled by Gina
that it's hard to pin her down and flesh her character out in a fic.

I have a very simple Zoe focused fic idea - so this is my first SOS before trying to write it!

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Friday, September 14, 2007 1:57 PM

NBZ

You have to remember that scene in Trash is also Play acting for the sake of Saffron.

Anything and everything past the point of Saffron rising out of that box is doubtful. Could e real, could be not.

Like Jayne asking that question. He knows they are all acting. He knows that he has to say something. But what? It's a "we applied the cortical electrodes but couldn't get a neural reaction" moment rather him being dense.

/notices he is way off topic.

Zoe then?

Yes, plays things close to her chest as you say.

Also (I would argue) probably the only crew member that Sees Mal as a person, actual and whole.

A soldier by trade, a soldier by nature. She may have a good head for leadership (which I think she does), but she is a reluctant leader. She probably prefers others to make the tough decisions. She follows orders, so can sleep easier at night.

She may have got married, but in mindset she has moved on a LOT less than Mal from the War.

She is strong, both in body and in will. Not gonna play games. If she wants something, she will go get it.

EDIT - You might enjoy this:
http://stillflying.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613

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Friday, September 14, 2007 2:18 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
You have to remember that scene in Trash is also Play acting for the sake of Saffron.

oh yes - sure - word wise...
but the warmth is in the faces -
maybe just the fun of being in firefly!

the rest of your post i shall consider carefully -
i agree about zoe's slow movement from the war, i also think she probably has a more idealist view of the browncoats/indies...

thanks for the link:)

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Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:25 PM

WYTCHCROFT

i thought this was telling - from Dead or Alive:

Quote:

ZOE
For the last time, he's the Captain.

WASH
Let out some of the starch, darling.
You're not in the military anymore.

ZOE
It's not that, it's...

WASH
Yeah, yeah. Who you are. The code.

makes me think of that bob dylan lyric "we entirely agreed - sacrifice was the code of the road..."

the novelisation of the BBDM adds a little insight - a bit simplistic maybe...

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Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:49 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

Also (I would argue) probably the only crew member that Sees Mal as a person, actual and whole.

I would argue against that. :)

With the exception of Jayne, Simon and, say, Wash, I think everyone on the ship sees Mal as a person, which is why each in their way they make efforts to get Mal to open up.

Kaylee ,in particular, plays to his softer side deliberately. ("You're a nice man, Cap'n.")

Book immediately zeroes in on Mal's soul behind the Captain persona.

Inara wouldn't be in the dilemma she is, if Mal as a person did not affect her. If he was the Captain or A Tragic Soldier or whatever, she could put him in a box and keep a lid on it.

Jayne, Wash and Simon each in their way, are in conflict with Mal, which keeps them from really trying to empathize, which also shows that Mal's has trouble playing nice with other boys. He has Man-issues, probably stemming from his paternal abadonment. But whatever.

Most of the crew really see Mal as a person. They just don't have the detailed background information that Zoe does to fill in the blanks and predict his moves as correctly.

Jayne is in greater danger of being dismissed as a sentient object, among them. And River, of course.

Also, Zoe. She keeps more things to herself than Mal does, which makes her a projection surface. I doubt Simon, Jayne, Book or sometimes Kaylee think much about the person she really is.

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Friday, October 12, 2007 4:27 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Also (I would argue) probably the only crew member that Sees Mal as a person, actual and whole.

I would say that she's the only one who knows the why of Mal. She's the only one who knew him before all the badness of Serenity Valley changed him. So the others may believe that he is a whole person underneath (copy AR's arguments here LOL!), but they don't really know who that person is. She does.

Quote:
She may have got married, but in mindset she has moved on a LOT less than Mal from the War.

Really? I don't agree at all! But I'm intrigued - why do you say so?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, October 12, 2007 4:37 AM

THEQUICKBROWNFOX

Zoe and Kaylee could use an exchange of personality with each other (mind reading gizmo gone pear shaped with temporary results?). I believe that each would benefit from the others POV. Haha! ;)

From one thing, learn ten thousand things.

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Friday, October 12, 2007 4:39 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
She's the only one who knew him before all the badness of Serenity Valley changed him. So the others may believe that he is a whole person underneath, but they don't really know who that person is. She does.

i don't disagree - but, just to explore a different perspective, it IS possible that Zoe knows who Mal WAS* - not who he IS.
Same with Book.
Everyone keeps trying to find the Mal underneath - but that Mal reallly did die in Serenity Valley. The end of the BDM shows the potential for a NEW more whole Mal. (which is backed up - in a more negative sense by his words to Inara - the man who goes to war in the BDM is harder and more remorseless than Seargent Reynolds - and who "goes with wrath"), possibly.

But if the crew represent the elements of himself that are lost (which is certainly Fillions view) then Mal still has a long road to walk - since Book and Wash are now lost themselves...

If such a view is plausible then it holds that Zoe is clinging to the past somewhat.

This is a different issue from sheer loyalty - which of course we know damn well she has buckets of - but not an incompatible one... (maybe!)

*the Operative fails with Mal because his informationa and analysis of the Captain represent a man who does not exist anymore.

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Friday, October 12, 2007 4:41 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Also (I would argue) probably the only crew member that Sees Mal as a person, actual and whole.
I would say that she's the only one who knows the why of Mal. She's the only one who knew him before all the badness of Serenity Valley changed him. So the others may believe that he is a whole person underneath (copy AR's arguments here LOL!), but they don't really know who that person is. She does.

Quote:
She may have got married, but in mindset she has moved on a LOT less than Mal from the War.
Really? I don't agree at all! But I'm intrigued - why do you say so?

Very good observations. I don't disagree on any particular point.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, October 12, 2007 6:30 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i don't disagree - but, just to explore a different perspective, it IS possible that Zoe knows who Mal WAS* - not who he IS.

Excellent point! I don't mean to suggest that the pre-war Mal is the "real" person and he'll be returning to that. I agree that he won't; he's been permanently changed. But it does affect one's understanding of him to know that he was once cheery and optimistic, and to have experienced him that way. Zoe's the only one who did.

And I don't think all his positive traits completely died. They're still in him, hidden under gruff defensiveness and a, uh... a slightly abrasive way of dealing with people.

Zoe's able to trust him so completely because she *knows* of his moral fiber. She knows that when he acts like an ass it's maybe because of the crap he's been through (which only she knows about in full). She has no doubt that he's good man. He'll come through in the end, when it's important, because he's got that core of the man he used to be.

Quote:
If such a view is plausible then it holds that Zoe is clinging to the past somewhat.

Hmm. I don't see her as clinging to the past as much as informed by it. And I don't see her as still living in the war as much as just having an inherently military manner and thought process because that's how she was raised. (nbz - is that what you meant, sort of? At all?)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, October 12, 2007 7:10 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

And I don't think all his positive traits completely died.

no you're right - it is possible to overstate the case... if everything positive had been lost he would be... i dunno, Jubal Early? or just some makeweight in the Alliance? Or just a very happless criminal - LOL!

but he has lacks, issues and failings enough to keep him interesting... and i would agree with Nathan F that the crew provide aspects of himself he... ok, maybe not lost but... was in danger of losing.

Quote:
She has no doubt that he's good man. He'll come through in the end, when it's important, because he's got that core of the man he used to be.

yes - i can imagine she understands that better than mal himself... sometimes his self conscious hardening reads like a case of 'methinks he doth protest too much' which must frustrate zoe a bit.

Quote:
If such a view is plausible then it holds that Zoe is clinging to the past somewhat.

Quote:
Hmm. I don't see her as clinging to the past as much as informed by it. And I don't see her as still living in the war as much as just having an inherently military manner and thought process because that's how she was raised.

i think she probably also just chose the path of least resistance just carried on with Mal and never looked back - interesting how such a thing might actually drag the past along with it. She may not have stood still long enough to make cold decisions... but if she did - she was obviously on the side of the Independents more passionately than is sometimes made out.

i mean, for example - it's hard to imagine that an officer of her caliber was never wanted by the Alliance for their own ranks... THAT might make a fic!

As for how she was raised - well, military yes... and - lord help me... i'm gonna try and explore that a little meself.

gulp!

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Friday, October 12, 2007 7:14 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

nice post Agent:)

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Friday, October 12, 2007 7:24 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
but he has lacks, issues and failings enough to keep him interesting... and i would agree with Nathan F that the crew provide aspects of himself he... ok, maybe not lost but... was in danger of losing.

Much agreement here!

Quote:
i mean, for example - it's hard to imagine that an officer of her caliber was never wanted by the Alliance for their own ranks... THAT might make a fic!

hmm... very interesting indeed! I don't see the Alliance as ever trusting an Independent enough to recruit her, but the idea of her being offered a place there... could be fun, just to explore her attitude toward them.

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Very good observations. I don't disagree on any particular point.

Thanks Asarian!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, October 12, 2007 9:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Zoe is a complicated person. I would imagine that the war changed her, and she had to adapt and go on. Mal's leadership & friendship gave her a path out.

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:16 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

nice post Agent:)

Umm, thanks? You certainly all took it and ran with it! Whee! ^_^

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:28 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:

Quote:
If such a view is plausible then it holds that Zoe is clinging to the past somewhat.

Quote:
Hmm. I don't see her as clinging to the past as much as informed by it. And I don't see her as still living in the war as much as just having an inherently military manner and thought process because that's how she was raised.

i think she probably also just chose the path of least resistance just carried on with Mal and never looked back - interesting how such a thing might actually drag the past along with it.

Very good point about Zoe!

That's sort of what, to me, shows that Zoe did less in terms of moving on than Mal did.

Mal may have chosen a shrine to Serenity Valley, but it included a plan, which then brought on the people that made Serenity an actual home and an actual thing worth living for. (Not the ship, the crew, always the crew.)

And it was a choice he made for himself.

Zoe's only real choice to make a change was Wash, and it wasn't really such a big change, at all. Hell, she's talking babies and isn't even willing to make a real change in her life for that.

She's stuck in this way of life and I don't think it's because it's really home to her.

Zoe doesn't like making decisions, she doesn't like change and she doesn't like conflict. She's somewhat rigidly stuck in a position, which suggests to me that she is just as deeply and traumatizingly damaged by the war as Mal is, just in a different way. Afraid of committing to something because it could be taken away.

Losing Wash, for all the terrible pain, might actually help her because.. it actually happened. And no amount of not committing prevented it from hurting, and she is still walking, even without having to focus on babysitting Mal, as she probably did after the war.

Um. End ramble.

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 2:17 AM

KJIPPO

So funny that you're discussing Zoe, as I am just rewathcing Firefly these days paying special attention to her. Everytime I discuss Firefly with my fellow Browncoats she has a tendency to get left out. Like there is nothing special about her. Which was weird, as I love all the characters for different reasons. And I am just realising that it would not be the same without her. Mal might be the leader, as such, but Zoe by following him tells us that there is more to him. She makes him likeable, like she's his conscience. Joss does this elegantly to add layers to the bitter Mal (it works, but I did not know it was intentional untill I read the companions). Of course when you have watched it all trough, I think we would all follow Mal (t least I would). And while the rest of the crew had different reasons for joining (money/job etc) we do not know why Zoe followed Mal after the war. But I agree with you guys that she is the only on who truly knows him and therefore is the only one who made it her decision to stay with him. Maybe even she is the one taking care of him as he seems more emotionally scarred than her (her being able to love and marry Wash).

I also noticed something in Out of gas, where Kaylee says; "She is not moving" while looking at Zoe laying in the infirmary, followed by "Serenity is not moving", because at the end of Serenity (BDM) Zoe says; "She's tore up plenty but she'll fly true" which Gina of course interpreted as being about Zoe (Joss did not write it as that). And maybe Zoe is to Mal what Serenity is to the crew. If that makes any sense at all.

All I know is, Mal might be my favourite character, but I would like to be Zoe.

"You're my kind of stupid"

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:09 AM

WYTCHCROFT

this has really been a helpful thread:)
thanks shiny posters!

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