Simon in a father role? by MerryK

this is a very interesting post:)

.... i might have second thoughts but - just to start...

A)
i don't find it strange that Simon has not thought about his feelings for River - he just FEELS them... they are probably the only thing he does not mentally categorise and order. Both siblings have the urge to do this - but River's sense of order/meaning has become fractured and multi-dimensional.

so the reality of his 'role' would surprise him somewhat! Especially as for a long time his principle 'role' was just the RESCUER - the HERO. A role most likely developed since childhood games and creative past-times, (i can imagine them like the precocious Bronte children).

To that effect, this quote (from your text):

Quote:
He did not want... to take on that role. All he had ever wanted was to rescue her...

reads very authentically.

compare it with River from the television script of Dead or Alive:

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And then the beautiful princess got
tired of waiting for her handsome
prince and tried to escape...

some might argue that rational old simon would not share River's faery tale vision. they might be right... but as SAFE shows - the game playing they were known for was mutual and long-lasting. Even whilst in the academy, Regan and Gabriel dismiss River's codes as the sort of game Simon and her would still be playing .

The breakout scenes in the BDM show very much this noble prince/knight aspect of him.

The negative side of this is that as a caveat to the Operative's statement "It's Love..." must be added, that on some level therefore, it is ALSO A GAME. Simon can be recklessly brave because on some psychological level - it is just a fairy story. Again i must stress that both Tam children would seem to share this view.

But firefly is all about growth - so Simon dealing with the mature reeality of his situation (his ROLE) would be plausible enough.

B)

Gabriel Tam is the master of his house - that much is clear. He may actually have weaknesses - but the petty power over his family would SEEM to be complete - until Simon challenges it. They are battling over possession of the daughter - the son seeking to supplant the father. He actually succeeds. The definition of his role and relationship to River is immediately blurred.

He is not, after all, his father's son for nothing. He often tries to dismiss River's fancies or 'sight' (whatever) - it is because he seeks to reassure her, to lessen her pain - but it is a dismissal nonetheless - and River always sticks firmly to her fears as a result. This would seem to be a family pattern continuing down the generations.

Of course - after only one season of Firefly - the development of their relationship is muted - and fics can be speculative. It seems right however, that at some point the issue of letting go would raise its head. The closest we come to this is in the BDM when Simon and Mal argue for the possession of River before the vault raid. Mal is (natch) a very paternal figure.

the question then becomes - to what extent has Simon DECIDED to parent River. It is sub-conscious/intuitive - or do his clashes with Gabriel and Mal show a conscious desire to be a surrogate father?

which takes back to your fic!:)

jinkies - what a LONG post!
um, sorry...

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:57 AM

I'm looking for opinions on how Simon sees his role to River, rather than how it is. I think we all as viewers recognized a little parental care in how Simon treats River (for example how he behaves around her in the first flashback of Safe and then the following first scene in real time), but that doesn't mean he notices.

I don't think Simon really thought it all through when he rescued River. Not in a physical sense...he had ways and means to get her safely away, and apparently live in secret on some other world. He planned to keep her from the Alliance—but after that, what was he planning? He didn't know that River would be brain-damaged until he got to the Academy, and he didn't know the extent until after she was rescued. He might have been prepared to give up everything to keep her safe, but I doubt he imagined that he'd have to keep a constant eye on her. I think he was expecting for them to live together on some world, where he could be a doctor, and she could do what she wanted, and just stay out of the way of the Alliance. The sort of living Mal wanted after the war was lost, just sans spaceships.

So I don't think Simon was prepared to take on the role that he ends up having to perform— as father to River. The moment I quoted from my story comes after a long night of River needing constant care and attention, the sort of care that parents, not siblings, end up doing. Since this is the night after Mal invites the Tams to stay on Serenity, it's very early on, but I could also see scenarios where Simon doesn't ever realize exactly what his relationship to River is.

I like your comments on the fantasy aspect of the River/Simon relationship, Wytchcroft. As an idealist, I think it's very likely that Simon unconsciously had slightly a hero and/or martyr complex. Not that his care and devotion weren't also real, but that there was some romanticizing of it all. For idealists, I know from experience, the romanticizing of life makes things easier to handle, and when those things include a mentally ill sister, that romanticizing is probably one of the few things keeping Simon sane. The comparison to the Bronte children is one that I had thought of before, and I think it also fits.

Agentrouka, you bring up Safe in your post. I'm dealing with Simon and River right after Serenity the pilot, so only a day after Simon has seen River for the first time in two years. At this point, I think a lot of things are going to come "suddenly" to him. It's not that he regrets his choice to rescue River, it's that he's uncomfortable at the moment with the idea that he's taken on the responsibility that Gabriel should have had. Definitely by Safe he has come to grips with that idea.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I'm looking for opinions on how Simon sees his role to River, rather than how it is.

I don't think Simon really thought it all through when he rescued River. Not in a physical sense...He planned to keep her from the Alliance—but after that, what was he planning?

I think he was expecting for them to live together on some world, where he could be a doctor, and she could do what she wanted, and just stay out of the way of the Alliance.

which would be a fantasy of course.

Quote:
I like... the fantasy aspect of the River/Simon relationship...
As an idealist, I think it's very likely that Simon unconsciously had slightly a hero and/or martyr complex.

.............

Quote:
when those things include a mentally ill sister, that romanticizing is probably one of the few things keeping Simon sane.

River is mentally altered -we would see this as 'injured' - the alliance would disagree - not mentally ill*... which is more than a semantic difference.

In fact in a number of ways River is more personally 'advanced' than Simon since she moves in the space between object and meaning... memory and actuality.

(As Delirium does in Neil Gaiman's Sandman which was clearly an influence - and in turn was a portrait of Kathy Acker and her writings.

And as the messianic figures of Frank Herbert's Dune do also, once they have embraced and mastered such a perspective, including holding the memories of others - and the power it can bring)

Quote:
but I could also see scenarios where Simon doesn't ever realize exactly what his relationship to River is.

agreed! which is why it's such a shame that the crucial 'i'm going to marry simon' scene in 'our mrs reynolds' got cut - darn it:)

because it shows Simon realising that he has never stopped to consider the nature of their relationship.

....................

ok nuff heavy stuff - your perspective, in terms of your fic DEFINITELY stand up it is coherent, thought out and engaging but it also YOURS.

e.g.

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He didn't know that River would be brain-damaged until he got to the Academy, and he didn't know the extent until after she was rescued.

probably - (but not necessarily. we don't even know with certainty the what, why, when and where of the 'Academy') - you are following a reasonable assumption based on the scant and frequently subjective evidence of what we've seen.

Quote:

I'm dealing with Simon and River right after Serenity the pilot, so only a day after Simon has seen River for the first time in two years.

speculation - the gap of time between break out - River being frozen - and simon's entry to Serenity is unknown. The only dating i know of is the novelisation stating a number of months bewteen break out and the operative being commisioned. - it was checking this fact (i asked some other fic writers as well as reading up) that lead me to write 'Runners' set before firefly.

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At this point, I think a lot of things are going to come "suddenly" to him. It's not that he regrets his choice to rescue River, it's that he's uncomfortable at the moment with the idea that he's taken on the responsibility that Gabriel should have had.

if we use your timeline (and it's feasible enough)then yes, absolutely!:).

Quote:
Definitely by Safe he has come to grips with that idea.

and decided what?

..................

not sure i've added or argued anything helpful in regard to your original post! LOL!

but i will just restate that your BSR piece (which i really enjoyed) holds together well - you are right to talk about the long night Simon has endured and the effects this might have had.

*not demeaning your experience, or the writers perogative of drawing upon such things.

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:15 AM

Well, you're quite right. It's pretty much impossible to write about Simon and River entirely within canon—any thoughts an author gives them, or any meaning an author gives to the lines they say and the moves they make in a scene, must come to opinion. I go with the novelization/movie scenario of Simon rescuing River, partly because I saw the movie first and thought it still made perfect sense after watching the series, but also because I think it makes the best sense dramatically.

I would beg to differ about River's condition. She is altered, yes, but you cannot ignore that parts of her brain have been removed that should never have been. Her brain is damaged and injured, and that damage manifests in various levels of real-life mental illnesses such as paranoid schizophrenia.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
It's pretty much impossible to write about Simon and River entirely within canon—any thoughts an author gives them, or any meaning an author gives to the lines they say and the moves they make in a scene, must come to opinion.

fun tho' aint it!:)

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:27 AM

Yeah, just a little frustrating in discussion. ;-)

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Yeah, just a little frustrating in discussion. ;-)

yeh... sorry - only with a scatter brained side tracking S.O.B like me!:)

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I'm looking for opinions on how Simon sees his role to River, rather than how it is.

well, i think the two are intertwined -

just wanted to add:

The commentary to the pilot is very interesting... Joss talks about how he was careful to leave the character of Simon somewhat ambivalent and mysterious - to hook the viewer. Fillion calls him 'scary' and joss laughs at one scene saying ''definitely a robot'...

BUT

importantly - Joss also points out Simon's big speech about River to the crew (the 'gifted' speech) and says "everything simon IS is in that speech."

i would say that the keynote emotion of that speech is AWE - total awe.

such a thing moves Simon (and his role) beyond simple (though DEEP) affection and beyond parenting.
It always reminds me of (Have you ever seen Angel?) the character of Knox in Angel... Knox is a lab techniciian/scientist who turns out to be the high priest for Ilyria, to which end he sacrifices his friend Fred so she can be possessed by her.
Knox talks of Ilyria with total awe - and places this above his stated love for Fred. KNOX: "She's so much more than that now. Beyond flesh. Beyond perfection. I loved Fred. I really did. She had a warmth that took you in and held you until everything cold and distant melted away. She was the most beautiful, perfect woman I ever met. That's why I chose her. She's the only one that was worthy."
it's possible to see River as Fred - and River/BDM/'Triggered' as Ilyria.

where does Simon stand in this regard - well, it might be fun to think he is nuturing the weapon (how in the hell did he learn the ABORT code for her????)... BUT
that is a bit of a 'sudden but inevitable betrayal' cliche...
i think he is most likely the Anti-Knox, trying to prevent River from becomiing the weapon.

Either way, his awe and his priesty role are there to be explored... and of course he is (male tam again) ignoring the reality of who River might actually BE. Just as Mal is no longer the boy from Serenity Valley -- River is no longer the pre-academy brat... she must become someone new, someone who can heal the schism between girl and weapon. Simon's IDEALISATION of River may actually be a hindrance to this - and his role may again therefore become that of the caring but stultifying father.

-sheeshh!- blame the coffee! - hope that was of interest? -- hope it made sense!!!

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Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:58 PM

SPACEANJL

Simon last saw River as that small, shy but brilliant girl of fourteen (R.Tam session).

She's seventeen, going on eighteen by the BDM. There is a huge difference between those ages even without the whole other, erm, issue.

quote from Wytchcroft - and of course he is (male tam again) ignoring the reality of who River might actually BE. Just as Mal is no longer the boy from Serenity Valley -- River is no longer the pre-academy brat... she must become someone new, someone who can heal the schism between girl and weapon. Simon's IDEALISATION of River may actually be a hindrance to this - and his role may again therefore become that of the caring but stultifying father.

I'm with you on this. It's exactly how I see it. I think Simon puts people in boxes (metaphorically, but see what I did there?...) and adjusting to the fact that River is growing up would definitely be difficult for him. Particularly if she does gain a measure of control and start to want her own life. There is nothing more heart-breaking than unwanted sacrifice.

(Inara) “Simon...I have a proposition for you both.” She takes a breath. “The Guild can offer her a home here.”

The Simon Tam of a year ago would have swept his sister into such a sanctuary without a second thought. Now, he bites his lip, considers...

It doesn’t appal him. It was even a choice his parents had once considered for River, before they found out just how smart she really was. Inara’s soft voice continues on...

She could live within these walls. She would have people around her who did not spend all their time plotting ways to rob and kill. She would have peace and stillness, and time to dance.

River is regaining a certain clarity - she will never be well, but she does more than function. Maybe time has accustomed them to her oblique style of speech, its run of allegory and metaphor. Maybe he hopes too much. But here, perhaps she could heal. There is peace and order, a sense of tranquillity. Not things in great supply on board Serenity. She seems to have become accustomed to such a haphazard existence, but it’s not how she should have to live, running and hiding, and living hand to mouth.

This planet has a hospital. Newly-founded and seeking knowledgeable staff.

He could offer Kaylee a proper home. It’s a thought he keeps pushing to the back of his mind, but one that persists, in the quiet watches of the night.

But River's response...

(River) “Have a home, have a family. Don’t want to leave them lost in the woods - need a navigator.” She sighs, lets her hair fall forward. Peers up at him. “Know you want dirt beneath your feet, not under your fingernails. But I am not a broken doll - can’t keep me in the toybox until someone wants to play. I am...useful on Serenity. Not decorative. Need me to fly them through the storms.”

Simon wants to turn back to the order he has known; he is a very good surgeon, a skilled doctor. And he would do far more good for people in a hospital.

But River has found a place she wants to be, and it isn't planet-bound and regulated.

Their conflict will come from the fact that she no longer needs or wants his care and protection the whole time. And maybe that does go back to the Tams' scene - exactly who is lost without who?

Just my take on it.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:16 AM

Good points, both of you. I'm not sure if Joss was trying to do it or not, but I always saw that slightly stifling side of Simon. It's like in the movie Finding Nemo, where the dad is so protective of his son because he feels like he's failed him once already, and so will do anything now to keep him safe, even if it means holding on too tightly to him. And I think that's part of the difference between Simon and Gabriel—Gabriel would have stifled River (not entirely consciously, perhaps) because she didn't fit the perfect child mold. Simon probably will stifle post-BDM River because he doesn't want her hurt again. Although in the beginning, she probably needed that intense amount of protection—Simon loses track of her for two seconds in Safe to talk to Kaylee, and River disappears and could easily have been captured. No wonder he doesn't want to involve himself with Kaylee!

I've been examining this concept in my stories, which right now are very early on in Firefly, though I do have a couple post-BDM ideas. Simon makes choices for River, sometimes because he has to, because she's broken and unstable, but also because he is just soooooo protective of her. It's admirable, but it could (and will, post-BDM, I believe) be problematic. I don't like stories that are River-centric where Simon is overprotective to a commanding and uncaring extent, but I also don't like stories where Simon is portrayed as the perfect man/husband/brother, so I've been trying to find the "truth" or at least the middle ground in my own stories. Definitely both the idealization and the overprotection (which is there because Simon sees himself partly as River's father, I think) will feature.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:17 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Simon last saw River as that small, shy but brilliant girl of fourteen (R.Tam session).

She's seventeen, going on eighteen by the BDM. There is a huge difference between those ages even without the whole other, erm, issue.

Well, the difference is usually due to a maturation process that takes place. Which explains why so many kids in those age ranges have a widely differing level of maturity.

After all, being that 14-year-old girl is also River's last memory of being with Simon, so it's just as natural for her to fall back into that role as it is for Simon, no matter what trauma she went through.

And I think that it's just as likely, if not more so, that what was done to her stunted her maturation rather than accelerated or kept it at an equal to normal pace.

To put a different spin on it, River may very well need Simon to see the girl she used to be, just as she needs, say, Mal to see what she is, and Jayne to see the threat she represents and Kaylee to see the "normal girl" in her.

They all acknowledge different parts of her, which is probably why the ship is so much home to her.

Not to mention, Simon IS her doctor and he did make her better through his planning in "Ariel". Her care is in his hands in more ways than one.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:24 AM

Oh, forgot to mention your comment about Simon's "keynote" speech (I like that term), Wytchcroft. I would say that awe comes into Simon's feelings for River, but in this speech there seems to be more fondness, especially when he rambles on about her being a brat about her abilities. It's that sibling relationship that keeps River from being a Mary-Sue—just like any real fourteen year old would be with genius powers, she's a bratty little sister about it, though Simon loves her anyway. It's hard to be awed with someone who teases you.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:08 AM

Interesting thread. Not something I think about a lot, so I only have a few little bitties to add.

I can see that when Simon first found out how bad off River was, he might have had to reconsider his role in her life. I'm oddly not sure I like Simon consciously trying to define it like this. I see him more as doing what seems obvious to him - take care of her, do whatever she needs. Like it's a blind, unquestioning devotion, and needs no title. (But then, I tend to want characters less self-aware and less self-assessing than most fics make them, so this could just be me...)

Anyway, Simon's thrown his life away already. Finding out that River needs so much help isn't exactly interfering with all the other plans he has for his life. I don't see him as thinking about himself much at that point, just moving ahead as safely as he can.

Other thing - I think the added burdens of River's condition fall on his doctor personna, not father. He sure might get freaked over the "father" role if River started wanting to date, or get the verse-y equivalent of a driver's license, or need money for clothes. Those are common father things. Saying goodnight with a kiss and syringe full of psychiatric meds is something else.

Yeah, I guess I'd see his dilemma as being between his personal and professional roles in River's life, not between brother and father.

Oh geez. So I guess I just got long-winded as usual and totally disagreed. Sorry! What you have is certainly interesting and thought provoking, and don't be changing anything on my account!

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:59 PM

Now see, I don’t think it’s possible for Simon not to notice that his relationship to River has changed. When he last saw her, if we judge from the R. Tam Sessions and the Safe flashbacks, she was in school and dance, and had a fond playful relationship him (Regan seems to think that they are always playing intellectual games with each other). Perhaps when she was younger he saw himself as her protector, but until he finds out that she’s in trouble, she’s pretty much independent of him. Then his role becomes the rescuer for a while, but still, I don’t think there’s a person alive who was so clueless that they would not notice and think on (for a second at least) the fact that their playmate is now the person that they have to be protector, psychologist, and babysitter (in a word, parent) to. You make a good point about Simon possibly seeing her as a patient, but considering that his expertise as a doctor was surgery, I don’t think it would entirely cover the changes. I think he’d have to notice, at some point. Now, I can see it being at a much later time, perhaps after the scene in Our Mrs. Reynolds, or Objects in Space even, but I don’t think you could avoid it.

Especially since I think that Simon is exactly the sort of character who does actually think about himself. He is so analytical and cautious in how he acts, even emotionally, that I cannot see him not being introspective. We know that he does think somewhat about himself, as shown by his self-assessments in Jaynestown and Objects in Space, and I think that he probably does it a lot more. He seems to think about everything, even if he’s not really good at thinking about most of it. Most people (and characters) would fall into a relationship with Kaylee and then realize that it conflicts with their relationship with River. Simon, though, seems to judge the situation intellectually before emotions become involved, and decide not to get involved. It doesn’t exactly work—he’s not a robot, or particularly good at thinking about relationships—but I think that from what we see, he had to have thought a little about it.

I don't agree with the idea that Simon knew he was leaving behind forever his old life to take care of River. You could make a case otherwise, since we don't really know, but I don't think there's more evidence that didn't know how badly River was off. I don't see how he could have the slightest idea until he came to the Academy...the only thing he knows is that she's being hurt, that she's cogent enough to write in code, and that she's being trained and mentally altered. Until he got her out, it's most likely that he thought he could be a Rim doctor of some sorts to support them both.

I do think that his plans probably changed so quickly that he didn't much think about it, and his decision to truly give up everything to take care of River probably wasn't really a decision at all, but I do think it was a change in plans.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:22 PM

PLATONIST

May I suggest an essay by Shanna Swendson from "Serenity Found" (A Tale of Two Heroes)? She makes a compelling argument that Simon and Mal are "parallel heroes" in the story context. She sites analogies from the series, i.e., Simon and Mal both bring a box with unknown contents on Serenity, in the pilot.

On the surface, both characters are willing to sacrifice and endure great hardships, not unlike a parent, but it is really their innate sense of Romantic Heroism that has Simon rescuing River and Mal continuing to let them stay on board. She calls it Simon's mission.

Mal subconsiously recognizes Simon's "mission" in the Maidenhead and brings them both back on board that causes friction and misunderstanding from the remaining crew. Mal needs Simon's mission in order to regain his lost heroism that was forsaken at Serenity Valley.

By the end of the movie, River has started to become autonomous and empowered, "my turn" and "that's the plan". She doesn't need either one of them to rescue her anymore. Simon will continue to protect her more vulnerable exploits, her sexuality, and Mal will protect her as crew, much like he does Kaylee.

The last sequence of the movie illustrates this best by showing Kaylee and Simon restocking supplies in the galley, at the same time Mal and Inara are conversing in the corridor. Heroism is apparent and rebalanced. All are able to move forward. And, what is River doing? She is in the cockpit starting the take off sequence for flight, again showing her autonomy through initiation.

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:29 PM

Actually, I was just about to post an analysis of Simon and Mal, who I see as being almost exactly alike.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a copy of Serenity Found yet, but that sounds really interesting. I agree, Simon often sees things in a classically romantic sense, "missions" and all. But I don't think he always thinks like that...there have to be pragmatic moments.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, October 15, 2007 4:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I don't agree with the idea that Simon knew he was leaving behind forever his old life to take care of River... I don't see how he could have the slightest idea until he came to the Academy...

Hmm. When Simon enters the Academy, he's just spent all the money he has, given it to an underground organization that he likely met through those Blackout zones. He knows his father won't help him, and he knows the Alliance is going to be after him for breaking into a secure facility. He may also suspect that he has knowledge that the Alliance isn't wanting him to share - that the Academy experiments on children. Even if River popped out of that box with a smile and a tap dance, how could Simon possibly be entertaining thoughts of going back to his old life? He's got to know better than that.

That's the root of his heroism, I think. He gave up everything for her, based on those letters. Before he even saw that she was messed up.

Quote:
Until he got her out, it's most likely that he thought he could be a Rim doctor of some sorts to support them both.

I agree. But I don't think seeing River changed his plans - I think Mal's offer did.

Simon certainly must have been shocked at how bad off River was, and this changed his understanding of his situation. But I think it came with a realization that his doctoring skills were about to become much broader, since he would have to be her care-taker. I just don't think he'd be considering himself as her father at that point. He might even feel further from his role as older brother (which certainly has a little bit of father figure in it) because she is no longer the little sister he remembers.

Damn. Must have been hard on him! Simon was surviving moment to moment. For all that he acted calm he had to be pretty damned freaked out inside, and all his mental resources were focused on survival and escape. I don't think he was going to rationally reason out his whole future at that point. At some time in the future, certainly. Later in the series or BDM, I can totally see the scene you wrote happening. (Again, just my .02. I'm sure more people disagree than agree with me LOL!)

As for the introspection... this really is a style thing and I've gone on enough already, so I'm going to post about this on the style thread.

Great thread here! I certainly hadn't thought about this, and though we may disagree it's damned interesting to discuss!

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:02 AM

Yeah, disagreement is just fine. I agree with you that introspection is often a flaw in styling, but I think that when it comes to thinker characters it is the most appropriate. How else do we understand Simon except by what he thinks?

Just as a clarification, I did not say that Simon thought he could go back to his old life...that would be clearly impossible, as you said. However, I don't think he gave up the idea of making his living by doctoring. I see no reason why he should have given up that, until he saw how badly off River was.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
However, I don't think he gave up the idea of making his living by doctoring. I see no reason why he should have given up that, until he saw how badly off River was.

I don't think he gave it up even then! He still is a doctor on the Rim right? Just... on a moving portion of the Rim... sort of...

Of course, we can do nothing but speculate about Simon's intentions before he rescued River, but I have a hard believing that he thought he'd find some normal life, and that River's conditition upset his plans. I don't think he really had plans, because he knew too much was up in the air. And he knew she wasn't 100% - "They're hurting us."

I'm working up a post re introspection for the other thread. You beat me to it LOL! But I'll clarify here that I think Simon is definitely an internal thinker, and I have no problem getting his thoughts laid out. I just don't see the scene you wrote happening *at the time* you place it, because I don't see these issues as tops on his list at that point. I just have a different take, that's all!

Edit to add: how do we learn about Simon without laying out his thoughts? That is the challenge, huh? Joss and Sean manage to do it, so can we if we try hard enough...

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I agree with you that introspection is often a flaw in styling, but I think that when it comes to thinker characters it is the most appropriate. How else do we understand Simon except by what he thinks?

absolutely! - there is often a disjunct between what characters think and what they do that is part of the adult appeal of firefly - which was always gonna be more introspective than... star wars, say.

i know fan fiction as a form - and consequently its readers tend to prefer a more direct approach... (this i guess is part of the appeal of StillFlyng who use script writing instead)...
but getting into a characters mind is something prose can genuinely do (which makes up for the fact that it is not TV or film) - and in so doing add layers to characters. Especially enigmatic ones such as Simon.

It also allows the writer to bring a style of their into a piece. If they are a good writer they'll do it well. If they are a bad writer the piece probably would fail in any case - and as a reader i'll take risk over bland anyday.

of course it has to suit the mood of a given story but i can think of several excellent fics i have read here that have achieved this.

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:35 AM

Of course, considering the wide controversy on what's going on in Simon's head, perhaps Sean and Joss didn't do as perfect a job as they might.

I've noticed that people, myself included, will see very clear indications of something in a performance, and think that that was what was intended, even though someone else may have almost the complete opposite opinion but with the same conviction. A lot of Simon can be revealed by what he says and how he says it, because he reveals certain aspects to certain people, and when all those conversations are taken as a whole he is fairly open...but without seeing a little of his thoughts, there's more guesswork than revealing IMHO.

Ah, I see, so it's the time more than the thoughts. That makes perfect sense, as I went back and forth over that scene and how much I wanted Simon to be self-aware.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:42 AM

just don't be losing sight of the quality of your piece!!!

please.

these threads can be helpful but a little dangerous in that regard.

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Monday, October 15, 2007 5:56 AM

SHINYSEVEN2

Quote:
That's the root of his heroism, I think. He gave up everything for her, based on those letters. Before he even saw that she was messed up.]

Yup--he took the Ring even though he didn't know the way.

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Monday, October 15, 2007 6:07 AM