Is it wrong to be Pro- Alliance ? by Booksword

Actualy I would consider the Parliment to be the true evil.

In the original pilot the Commander on the ship wanted to check for survivours, it was his concern for another ship that allowed Serenity to get away.

Goverments meddle, the sway opinion and tell us what to think.

We are free to think what we want.

In the dream we see that most Alliance people work on an assumption of the outer worlds. No real dealing with people on the outer Rim.

The Alliance will survive because of a basic reality, we need order. Are they monstorous bastard yes, but perhaps Miranda will be the wake up call to the people in the Core Worlds that all is not well and to stop seeing the world in rose tinted glasses.

The problem with Necessary Evil is not the Evil part mostly, its the Necessary.

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Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:30 AM

REGINAROADIE

I love questions like these because they're so loaded. It really makes you think about politics and the world you live in and what exactly is it you want and what system is the best way to attain that.

I am a firm believer in human rights and equality and all that. I know it may seem like a fairy tales (and at times it feels like it), but I honestly believe that it is attainable. So of course I'm all for the Browncoats and them wanting a more progressive and democratic galactic rule. But I'm also for an efficient government. And when I say efficient, I don't mean autocratic or dictatorial. I mean efficient as in a good health care system, a good education level, a government that isn't hundreds of billions of dollars in debt and is running in a way that years or decades down the line won't collapse on itself.

Stanley Kubrick once said that his favored political system is a "benign dictatorship". I wouldn't go that far. Personally, so long as a political system isn't running the risk of devolving into complete chaos and becoming a MAD MAX like future, then fine by me.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"There's only one "Return" ok, and it ain't "of the King", it's "of the Jedi."

"Maybe we should start calling your friend 'Padme' because he loves 'Mannequin Skywalker' so much, Right? (imitating robot) Danger...danger...my name is Anakin...my shitty acting is ruining saga."

Excerpt of internet teaser for CLERKS 2.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:02 AM

LINCOLN

It is all shades of gray, how dark are you? Bad guys that steal but do the right thing versus REAL bad guys who pretent to do the right thing? The alliance cares for the little guy only enough to keep them inline (while taking from them evything they can), and if that doesnt work crushes them at war...

MIranda is the result of an experiement gone wrong and then hidden, Nazi germany performed experements in "control" and tried to hide the results... while the german people basked in the glory of thier new alliance.

So if you want to stick you head in the sand and enjoy your comfortable life while those on the raggedy fringe suffer, then yes its ok to be Pro-Alliance.

On the other hand it is fiction and its always fun to root for the bad guys on occasion, darth vader makes a scene much more interesting

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 9:15 AM

BARTICUS

Yup of course its wrong to be pro-alliance....pro alliance means backing an empire that offers safety and control but all an empire ever does is offer safety to the elite and dupes the poorfolk into fighting for greater glory....like every other empire that has ever existed...the good folks of serenity aren't doing anything illegal when they're smuggling etc....they're just smuggling stuff deemed contraband by the alliance...the alliance who will no doubt be working for the big Pharma and all their shareholders thus making anything non Pharma contraband...i can't believe some of the comments here saying that empire is a necessary evil...believe me i'm english and it never did us any good....it did the rich good but thats the point....america fought against this and due to the founding fathers they set up a perfect system of congress, senate and presidency to cancel each other out and for one not to gain dominance and to sell out the country ....it lasted 200 years and long may it continue.
Personally i also think that that is why firefly got cancelled in the first place....if firefly was all about the adventures of the alliance? Then no contest it'd still be running....as Star trek and Babylon 5 prove with their One World Government visions.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:04 AM

MER

Really, it's up to you if whether or not you should be pro-alliance. They have done good, but at what cost?

Also, I'm more concerned with Blue Sun than their damn government. It's a company who has total control over things. I seriously don't doubt that they're trying to slowly take over the alliance by big coporation.

But that's the paranoid in me talking.

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:45 AM

LINCOLN

Blue Sun - Alliance

same thing or at least at the root of each you will find the same source...

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:27 PM

GELASSENHEIT

power corrupts no matter what form of government is in charge.

Gelassenheit means Serenity

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:40 PM

ARABIKUM

I´d like to stay out of that discussion, but...

OK. To me there´s an analogy between the Alliance and the actual U.S. government, obviously. You folks might know better, but there´s also a lot of discussion going on about the republican government cutting down a whole lot of “freedom rights”, mostly because of the 9/11 incident.

We had this discussion in Germany as well, because you have no choice but to deal with the dangers and threaths that international terrorism nowadays poses. Thank god, we haven´t been attacked (yet). But one answer in Germany to the question, how to deal with it, always was, that this kind of terrorism, the free world faced on 9/11 (and still is facing) is always and foremost AGAINST every form of freedom, therefore cutting those rights by yourself is definitely the wrong way, because you´re doing exactly what hose terrorists want. We should be proud of being free, even if it makes us vulnerable. I strongly believe in that.

Actually the U.S. government is doing a lot of that stuff, in order to protect their citizens, The problem is, that you´re always in danger of leaving the narrow path of democrazy. I my eyes, the Alliance in Firefly already took that step too far and is now on the brink of becoming a dictatorship. All they wanted was “building better worlds”, but they screwed it up, somehow. The movie shows that clearly.

Don´t get me wrong on this. The Alliance is not the U.S., but it´s something the U.S. might become in a not sop far future, when you´re not paying attention...

At least, that´s my understanding. Look at the operative. He´s not an evil person, he´s just doing evil things for the sake of the good. And those Reaver-Jerks? I don´t have to tell you, what THEY look like, do I ?!

Blue Sun is just a symbol for those global operating companies, who are so mighty, that they just give a s…. about freedom, politics or anything else. We can all name these companies (starting with Fox ?!).

A.

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!
http://www.fireflyday.com/

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Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Joss Wheden is pro-Alliance, I suspect; don’t know why you shouldn’t be, if you want. In interviews he has described the Alliance as “progressive.” A term that, coming form a diehard social and political Liberal like Joss, generally doesn’t mean “bad.” And he has described Mal as someone he doesn’t agree with. The story of Firefly is really a much more complicated story, politically, then I think many people give it credit for.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, April 21, 2006 12:28 AM

ARABIKUM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Joss Wheden is pro-Alliance, I suspect; don’t know why you shouldn’t be, if you want. In interviews he has described the Alliance as “progressive.”

Well, we should exchange our interviews. I read an interview, in which Joss said, the Alliance is something, that has recently been (re-)elected for the 2nd time in his country. I don´t know. Maybe he was talking about the World Wildlife Fund

. Make of it what you like.

Quote:
A term that, coming form a diehard social and political Liberal like Joss, generally doesn’t mean “bad.”

As far as i know, Joss is not liberal. He describes himself as "left" and sometimes as "radical". The latter being quite the opposite of "liberal".

Quote:
The story of Firefly is really a much more complicated story, politically, then I think many people give it credit for.

Well, that´s most definitely the case, I think movies are always best,when there´s enough room left, to have your own thougths and interpretations about it. Joss himself said, that a lot of conservatives actually do like the movie. Which is good, because we need every browncoat we can possibly have. Browncoats unite!

A.

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!
http://www.fireflyday.com/

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Friday, April 21, 2006 4:40 AM

BARTICUS

Hmmmm aren't the alliance dressed in grey Nazi SS like uniform....they send killers out to track down people who can be used as secret weapons.....and they experiment on a world wide scale forms of population control!!! How much more 'bad guy' like do you want? What good have they done exactly?

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Monday, April 24, 2006 6:00 PM

LADYKNIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by Barticus:
What good have they done exactly?

No doubt the alliance is at least partly responsable for the technogally that allowed man to leave earth-that-was in the first place. They do good, just not for some.

to quote Shephard Book "A government is merely a body of men, usually noticably ungoverned."

We can't say wether the alliance itself is good or bad. There are good people in it, there are bad people in it, and there are those who just don't give a damn. Just like there is in the rest of the 'verse. It's just, you give someone power, and suddenly everything about them flashes right to the surface for all the world to see.

The alliance is nither a benovolent utopian government (obviously) or an evil empire (Operative quote anyone?) it's just there. It's what is.

As for if it's a good thing they won the war or not... it all depends really. I mean, lots of our characters may have been short-term better off. But what would have happened? Ither absoloute chaos...or a unification, into a single government...

which over the decades would just cause the cycle to repeat.

My step-brother half-recited a speach given by the villian of "Gundam Wing, Endless Waltz" (which I've only seen part of) I don't remember it terrablly clearly, and I've buffered what I remember with my own stuff as I agree with the basic logic.

There are three stages. War, Peace, Revoloution. A war ends, peace comes, then someone dosen't like the new order. Someone rebels. A war comes, a new government takes hold, peace follows. Soon, someone dosen't like it, and they rebel. War, Peace, Revoloution. The three steps in an endless waltz.

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Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:21 AM

TRISTAN

To lighten up the mood a bit...
If there were no Alliance, who exactly would our BDH's thumb their noses at? I'm sure Mal could pick a fight at some bar on a tiny little moon somewhere without the Unification slant, but it wouldn't be as satisfying, would it?

Remember, this post was just to bring a smile.

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.
On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

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Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
To lighten up the mood a bit...
If there were no Alliance, who exactly would our BDH's thumb their noses at? I'm sure Mal could pick a fight at some bar on a tiny little moon somewhere without the Unification slant, but it wouldn't be as satisfying, would it?

Remember, this post was just to bring a smile.

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.
On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

Shakes his head and smiles in admiration.

I would like to believe that if the Independents where in charge their better angels would guide them to be a better and more Democratic goverment.

But I believe in two things.

Necessity demands, what is needed equals action taken. You have billions of people out there, there must be checks and balances. If you are any government to maintain stablity you must sacrifice honor, morality to reach this goal.

We live in First World countries, in theory we could give billions of dollars and resources to maintain and upgrade Third World contries.

But that tips the balance, The Alliance maintains order. They screw over the outer worlds but they manage it.

We can scream individual rights, we can even think that the Independents would do a better job. But do you think if Blue Sun offered the Independents a morally dubious way to win the war wouldnt they take it.

If Blue Sun thought that the Browncoats where more of an Advantage then the Alliance they may have. Logicaly the Independent command would take it because one of the first doctrines of War is to Win.

Also Independent worlds would eventually prey off each other. The world with most ships or manpower would take over those without. Might makes right.

Hell, any world that did not actively support the Independents would be fair game. To the victor the spoils.

We like Order, we like power to our homes and fresh produce in our stores.

The Alliance provides this, they provide a system of trade. Proberly corrupt but workable, a system of law that exist if not flawed.

Much like our world come to think of it.

To me they are no better Angels of our nature just Demons and lesser Demons.

I under stand the Alliance and I respect the Browncoats.

But Necessity demands and we obey.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I trust people to be people. Everything else is fair game.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 6:46 AM

STARSONG

Joss has said on more than one occasion that the Alliance is not at all unlike the US.. that it could be both a force for good and evil.. I believe his example was Viet Nam.. "But Mal can't see the good, because he's VietNamese."

Freedom is messy. Freedom means other people doing things you don't like, and it means people die because no one makes them wear seatbelts or helmets or not take addictive drugs. It means some folks don't have food or medicine or shelter because no one takes money from those who do have those things to play philanthropist.

Lots of folks don't like freedom. Even more don't want other people to have some freedom or another.

And that's as much as I'm gonna say about that.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 7:01 AM

ZISKER

Yes, it is wrong. It is very wrong. And what's more, you're a bad person for thinking it. In fact, you're not really a Browncoat. You're not even a Beigecoat! You're . . .I don't even know the words for you but you'll certainly be in the anti-Christ's legion for thinking such a thing!

Nah, it's shiny. The Alliance is flawed, but it does seem to have its positive aspects as well. We also do get the show from Mal's PoV for the most part and he ain't got no love for it, so our view is a little skewed*. And from a "Hey, guys, this is a TV show" it's a grand creation because it's REALISTIC. There are no utopian governments (just look at the root latin)and it's nice to see a non-Utopian government that still isn't the Evil Empire of Star Wars (not that I didn't enjoy the hell out of that story).

That's a good question about the nature of the Independents - did they want to form a confederacy of their own should they have won? Or did they all want to do their own thing as individual planets?

* Yes, they cut River's brain in Serenity, but in Firefly it was probably Blue Sun doing the cutting. I'm more into the "evil business" than "evil government" theme because I find it more relevant to our world situation as of now.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:06 AM

MIRANDAN

I think that from a modern view we regard the Roman Empire as a positive influence but of course things might not have looked so clear cut to a Gaul with a Legion bearing down on him & his.
Good and bad is rarely as clear cut in History as it is on tv, and it is to Joss's credit that the alliance reflects this ambiguity in viewpoint.
I fully believe that Joss is also exploring the contemporary parellels with Iraq and a " Do the ends justify the means ?" moral conundrum about exporting "Progressiveness". See the Special Features on the BDM DVD for Joss's comments.

"We are all Mirandans today"
3 full mags and my swinging cod

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 9:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zisker:
Yes, it is wrong. It is very wrong. And what's more, you're a bad person for thinking it. In fact, you're not really a Browncoat. You're not even a Beigecoat! You're . . .I don't even know the words for you but you'll certainly be in the anti-Christ's legion for thinking such a thing!

Nah, it's shiny. The Alliance is flawed, but it does seem to have its positive aspects as well. We also do get the show from Mal's PoV for the most part and he ain't got no love for it, so our view is a little skewed*. And from a "Hey, guys, this is a TV show" it's a grand creation because it's REALISTIC. There are no utopian governments (just look at the root latin)and it's nice to see a non-Utopian government that still isn't the Evil Empire of Star Wars (not that I didn't enjoy the hell out of that story).

That's a good question about the nature of the Independents - did they want to form a confederacy of their own should they have won? Or did they all want to do their own thing as individual planets?

* Yes, they cut River's brain in Serenity, but in Firefly it was probably Blue Sun doing the cutting. I'm more into the "evil business" than "evil government" theme because I find it more relevant to our world situation as of now.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

Thanks for the input, just to make it clear.

Browncoat forever!!!!

In the end it is a matter of perspective, in the age of Rome a legion of soldiers bearing down on me and telling me how to live in my own home would be labeled as agressive foreign asshole.

To the Soilder it would just be him doing his job out of belief, pay or other factors.

To the Ceaser who looks at a map and sees either conquest or possible threat to the stablity to my world vis a via the Empire. The person whose rights and lands I am taking is a number in the equation.

I believe that the Alliance is needed, because I belive in checks and balances.

Necessity demands and we obey.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 10:25 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

I'm going to have to say I'm more pro-Alliance than not. I'm sure part of the reason is that I'm not very big, and I can't handle a weapon. I couldn't possibly survive outside of civilization, and I think that would be true of many people nowadays.

One example that comes to mind is Inara's socioeconomic position versus Nandi's. Inara has the backing of a guild and of the Alliance in general; she can enforce her property rights and her right to choose her own clients. Nandi had to find a way to bring in guns to match Burgess's to keep what she had worked for, and it sounds like, before she arrived, the "girls" didn't really have much choice about how they conducted their business. So the Independents grumble about losing their freedom, but the Alliance actually permits Companions to have theirs.

Also, think about Liberty(?) settlement, where Saffron supposedly came from. She made up her identity, but I doubt she made up the whole business about there being Maiden Houses where females orphans were kept until they could be married off for trade purposes. I doubt they'll be able to keep that system going, once the Alliance has the resources to intervene.

The way the Alliance gives the BDH's grief over their illegal salvage operations seems petty from the BDH's point of view, but it's just part of enforcing property rights. Someone paid for all that stuff on those ships, and if the ships' occupants have died, it's only fair (it seems to me) that what remains go to their surviving kin.

And it seems to me that the Alliance does strive to be benevolent in other ways (aside from the enforcement of property and civil rights, I mean), rescuing stranded ships and transporting medicines to the border planets, funding hospitals and schools at the Core, etc.

There is this business about their treatment of River. But I suspect that her parents consented to it. There's no way else to explain their reaction to Simon's concerns, I'm thinking (how many parents send their 14-year-old daughters off to boarding school and don't try to visit them or bring them home for a family vacation even once in three years?). So the operations and tests are against River's consent, but not against the consent of her legal guardians, who supposedly have her best interests at heart. The idea that the Alliance would allow citizens to forcibly "donate" their offspring to the nation's greater military good is still offensive; but the fact it was kept secret indicates to me that they knew that it was outrageous and wrong... and allows for the possibility that the Alliance would self-correct this situation once it got out.

Don't get me wrong -- there's lots to quibble with as to whether the Alliance has got this or that policy right, but overall I think I'd rather have the Alliance than not.

Just my two cents,

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 10:46 AM

ZISKER

Quote:
Originally posted by Booksword:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zisker:
Yes, it is wrong. It is very wrong. And what's more, you're a bad person for thinking it. In fact, you're not really a Browncoat. You're not even a Beigecoat! You're . . .I don't even know the words for you but you'll certainly be in the anti-Christ's legion for thinking such a thing!

Nah, it's shiny. The Alliance is flawed, but it does seem to have its positive aspects as well. We also do get the show from Mal's PoV for the most part and he ain't got no love for it, so our view is a little skewed*. And from a "Hey, guys, this is a TV show" it's a grand creation because it's REALISTIC. There are no utopian governments (just look at the root latin)and it's nice to see a non-Utopian government that still isn't the Evil Empire of Star Wars (not that I didn't enjoy the hell out of that story).

That's a good question about the nature of the Independents - did they want to form a confederacy of their own should they have won? Or did they all want to do their own thing as individual planets?

* Yes, they cut River's brain in Serenity, but in Firefly it was probably Blue Sun doing the cutting. I'm more into the "evil business" than "evil government" theme because I find it more relevant to our world situation as of now.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

Thanks for the input, just to make it clear.

Browncoat forever!!!!

In the end it is a matter of perspective, in the age of Rome a legion of soldiers bearing down on me and telling me how to live in my own home would be labeled as agressive foreign asshole.

To the Soilder it would just be him doing his job out of belief, pay or other factors.

To the Ceaser who looks at a map and sees either conquest or possible threat to the stablity to my world vis a via the Empire. The person whose rights and lands I am taking is a number in the equation.

I believe that the Alliance is needed, because I belive in checks and balances.

Necessity demands and we obey.

. . .um, I was being sarcastic. Very, very, very, very sarcastic. VERY sarcastic. I thought the follow-up would make that clear, but apparently I was wrong. I wasn't actually questioning your loyalty as a Browncoat and if you took it that way I apologize.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://www.serenityday.org/
http://forum.serenityday.org/

Little or no free time, but want to help?
Help Spread the Signal: http://www.geocities.com/browncoatsignalcorps

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Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:33 AM

Oh I know you where kidding, no offense taken.

BROWNCOATS FOREVER !

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Saturday, July 29, 2006 8:03 AM

CAVALIER

I can't help but think of Kipling:

Take up the Multi-Ethnic Cultures burden--
The savage wars of post –unification peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

...

Take up the Multi-Ethnic Cultures burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Independant night?"

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 1:01 AM

The price of free will is choice.

The price of choice is consequence.

Our need to be able to choose defines us.

Our need for Order shapes us.

We accept little sins for a safer tomorrow.

We step over moral lines so frequently until they no longer exist.

And in all this, Chaos waits.

---------------------------------------

In the end I belive both sides of the equation need each other. The resources of the Independents and the Order ( flawed) of the Alliance.

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 1:23 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Booksword:
Necessity demands and we obey.

uuuuuuggggggh...... sheeple!

I'll let Ben Franklin do my talking for me.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin

You sir, are not a browncoat. It's cool that the alliance likes the show too though.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 1:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Booksword:
Necessity demands and we obey.

uuuuuuggggggh...... sheeple!

I'll let Ben Franklin do my talking for me.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin

You sir, are not a browncoat. It's cool that the alliance likes the show too though.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." myspace.com/6ixstringjack

I consider myself a Browncoat even If I do see the Alliance point of view.

Like the qoute by the way.

\

' To survive is to adapt, to adapt is to sacrifice. Let others have their high ground, I will stay on the low ground where it's safer'

\

There are over Five billion disorderly humans on this mudball. You really think spreading them across the stars isnt going to turn nasty.

Take away a mans security, his sense of checks and balances and everything structured however unfair. And you no longer have a man.

Considers challanging you to a duel at dawn but remembers that 1) swords aint my thing and 2) most of the time pretty much the practical coward.

**Goes looking where he stashed that Browncoat**

Um is Sheeple a bad thing?

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Friday, August 4, 2006 7:04 AM

MYCROFTXXX

Personally, I think we'll never know the 'true' nature of the alliance because of the show's cancellation. In the words of Wash "there are so many twists and turns and cul-de-sacs it's crazy!" Before picking "sides" as seems to be what's going on here, I think a better history of how the alliance got to where it is today is needed. Afterall, the original settlers of the new 'verse came from two very different social-political systems, the 'West' and 'China/Asia' and as everyone knows the belief systems between these two human cultures have some serious differences. So, given this starting point, just how did they arrive at a government called the Alliance? We have only a few sketchy details. It has a parliament which infers some attempt at a semi-democratic approach to resolving differences. We've got some proof that there is an enforcement of laws and rules that apply to their military as much as they do on their citizens. Afterall, in the two direct encounters with Alliance cruisers they were treated with proper military decorum versus their reception from Niska and gang? We know ther is an the existence of a judiciary but not the nature of that branch of government. For all we know, there is a "president for life" or some such at the top of the government even though it didn't get mentioned in the short lifespan of the show.

Next, to judge the entire alliance as 'evil' for what happened on Miranda and to River leads down a slippery slope to condemming an entire culture based on the actions of maybe a few rogue individuals who have abused their status within the government (I'm thinking of the operative's line about "just as this facility doesn't exist, neither do I"). The "key members of parlament" also doesn't necessarily mean "all members of parliament", just those bent on doing some aweful things. For all we know they have been rooted out already and the operative was just sent to clean things up (a theme repeated in several other movies).

So, this long-winded response is not really to say that one side or the other is right or wrong, just that when you are dealing with literally billions of people that started from a very different set of cultures, things are bound to be very grey not so black and white as we like it.

One last thing... although I am squarely on the side of our BDH, they _do_ get away with criminal acts that if they occurred in even the least civilized part of our world it would lead to some form of governmental retribution (you just don't go round killing people no matter how justified it seems at the time unless you are in a sanctioned war).

Still, let's not forget this is a TV show / movie and if everyone played by our 'civilized' rules it would be very boring viewing.

I like the 'verse just the way it is. As far as which side I'm on? Definitely BDH just cause they have all the fun!

--

Given a choice between the earth-that-is and the 'verse-that-will-be I'll take the latter.

宁静

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:28 PM

WYTCHCROFT

bumped into a similar thread on another site - a few minutes ago (while making the rounds - i like to keep an eye on folk)...

to get back to the 'Verse. It strikes me that the real interesting thing is the eternal 'what next'?

if the Alliance/Parliament 'falls' at the end of the BDM (yeah yeah i know, but IF) then the situation would be a bit like the berlin wall/fall of the soviet thing...

and i can imagine a sequel where things are even scrappier - more grey and complex and where the allegances onboard Serenity would really be tested.

an interesting flux state...

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:36 PM

I am pro alliance and would like to start up a purple belly club in Vermont to maybe work with and compete against any local brown coat organizations.

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Monday, June 16, 2008 3:41 PM

WYTCHCROFT

it's the outfits right???:)

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Monday, June 16, 2008 6:27 PM

REGINAROADIE

In just re-reading the tread and what everyone has to say, I think that a lot of points are valid and that like politics, it's a far more complex quandary than one would expect.

I think that when The Alliance did form in the beginning when colonization took place, that there was a genuine drive to make things better and to create a new start for humanity so that they wouldn't face extinction. And that in the beginning, things were good. But then over a few hundred years of prosperity, that the Core became complacent and for themselves, with a lot of "out of sight, out of mind" going on. This lead to the war between the Core and Outer Rims, which made things worse. And I think if the show went on, that we'd see more of the complexity of the Alliance. That there would be the Barak Obama's, Dennis Kucinich's and Al Gore's tucked away between the Dick Cheny's, the Karl Rove's, the Ken DeLay's, the Bush's, etc.

I think if the show went on, by the end of the series, three things Could have happened.

1) Miranda becomes the Alliance's equivalent of Watergate. Lots of investigations, exposes, hearings, a cultural shift in opinion and eventual change in administration. The Alliance itself isn't corrupt. Just the people in charge. And with those people out and new people in, maybe things would change for the better.

2) The Alliance goes bankrupt. Basically, the entire government collapses underneath it's weight, Alliance credits become worthless and the government disbands, turning the 'verse into a free for all with planets becoming their own autonomous governments. Chaos might ensue for a while, but a U.N./Federation organization might evolve.

3) Final season would basically be Joss's season long version of RETURN OF THE JEDI, culminating with Mal flying Serenity into the core of one of the core planets, and firing the shot that blows the main reactor up and destroys The Alliance for good, while Gabriel lifts the Emperor or king or whatever and throws him down into said reactor as well.

While #3 would have been entertaining as all hell, I think #1 would have been more realistic, and #2 realistiv, but to a smaller degree.

I would have also liked to have seen a variation of the famous "What have the Roman's ever done for us?" scene from LIFE OF BRIAN.

"And what has the Alliance ever given us in return?"
"Engines for interstellar travel?"
"What?"
"The engines."
"Oh yeah, they did give us that."
"And colonization."
"Oh yeah, colonization. Remember what the moons were like before that, Mal."
"OK, I'll admit that interstellar travel and colonization are two things the Alliance HAS done for us."
"And the routes."
"Well obviously the routes, I mean that goes without saying. But apart from the interstellar travel, the colonization and the routes-"
"Navigation."
"Irrigation."
"Yeah, all right."
"And the saki."
(agreeing murmurs)
"Yeah, that would be something we'd really miss if they left."
"Communication."
"And it's safer to walk the streets at night now, Mal."
"Yeah, they certainly like to keep order. Let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this."
(Everyone's agrees)
"All right, but apart from travel, colonization, navigation, irrigation, communication, order, saki and the routes..WHAT HAS THE ALLIANCE EVER DONE FOR US!!!"
"Brought peace?"
"OH PEACE. SHUT UP!!!"

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:55 AM

I would totally pay 18 dollars to see that.

( Hell I would pay for any and all Serenity sequeals, hmmm Cartoon movie on DVD ?)

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Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:14 AM

OMG, put that scene in the BSR now.

('Cos you just know that Jayne is snacking on a bag of otter's noses, right?)

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Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:56 PM

PURPLEBELLY86

Hell... if it's wrong to be pro-Alliance in this 'verse, I'm proud to be wrong.

I love Firefly - wouldn't be here otherwise - but to be honest the first thing most libertarians need is a dose of cold water. Much as they may be annoying and bureaucratic and perhaps restrictive, governments do have a purpose and responsibilities to their public, and tough situations (like natural disasters, et cetera) have this bad tendency to get ugly when that purpose isn't fulfilled. Even within the context of the show, much as the Alliance does things that look somewhat shady, I'm not convinced a 'verse without them would look any better.

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:01 PM

ELKSWORTHY

Having only become a Browncoat recently, I'm probably not as articulate on the subject as any of you guys, so bear with me.

I'll try to keep this brief. :)

As stated earlier, I think that the Alliance is equivalent to the first-world countries, whereas the outer planets resemble the underdeveloped areas of the world. And as in our world, who's right and who's wrong isn't clear. But I'm an idealist, and I like to think of a world where every country is equal and properly governed... which, while unlikely, seems a hell of a lot more likely without the Alliance in control. The years following an Independent victory would, of course, be extremely hard (especially for those on the central planets, being unaccustomed to poverty), but in the long run I think it would be worth it. It's just a larger-scale version of any revolution (that is, a revolution with uncorrupted people in charge).

Every planet would have equal opportunity to be self-sufficient. With the technology for terraforming, they could manipulate each planet to have ideal living conditions and access to numerous resources. What would be needed would be to entirely eliminate the aristocracy so that every person has an equal opportunity for success.

(ololol communism)

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barticus:
Hmmmm aren't the alliance dressed in grey Nazi SS like uniform....they send killers out to track down people who can be used as secret weapons.....and they experiment on a world wide scale forms of population control!!! How much more 'bad guy' like do you want? What good have they done exactly?

If this is wrong then what is right?

jk

I am pro alliance, and yes some evil things have happened, but I think as a whole thigs will turn out well for everybody. BTW what's a few planetary populations between friends? Anyone have change for 10,000,000 people.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:52 AM

BARTICUS

Wow it's been a while since i thought about firefly (blasphemy i hear you cry) but to add to the thread and after thinking about it for a couple of years i have absolutely gotta say that if anything i am even more anti alliance than ever. I'm often surprised to see Americans supporting the alliance when it's obvious the founding fathers would be on the side of Mal and co...it doesn't matter if the Alliance has some good points, (i'm sure the British empire had a few - for the elite mainly) but overall the Alliance (like the British empire)is restricting, controlling and willing to put anyone to the sword who does not agree with their world view. This inability to even think that THEY might be wrong thus condemns them.
Hope this helps!

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:17 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Never saw this thread before.....very interesting. The Alliance uses "agents" that leave trails of dead bodies; dead bodies all over the place..ie..Hands of Blue guys just wipe out an entire Alliance squad of police, leave them to fester in their own blood on a Core Planet...and no one is supposed to notice that? The Operative in the BDM wipes out people at the Academy...does anybody care? Who cleans up that mess? The "young miss" that the Operative addresses, what happens to her? Was she killed too, or does she just come back to work tomorrow? Come back and do what? Then the slaughter on Haven, and all of Mal's hangouts....is the citizenry all ok with this? Of course not, they're petrified, just like those living under the oppresive rule of the Nazis, or even the Empire from Star Wars. It is wrong to be pro-Alliance, unless you condone indiscriminate murder of innocents.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:00 AM

Of course, there could just be a tragic accident at a school. Either a disgruntled student goes a bit Columbine, or the shuttle taking them on a field trip crashes...hell, could even be an atrocity prepetrated by some of those pesky 'Independents' still floating around, disseminating their lies and doctored videofeed. Recently, a group of officers were even massacred when a criminal gang raided a hospital, brave men giving their lives to defend the patients.

Boros, Whitefall...It's so very sad when a civil war erupts on any planet - it would be much better if they were under the secure rule of the Central Planets, so much safer for them.

It's all about the spin, baby. You can bet that that vid-feed got shut down damn quick, and disowned fast. Any housecleaning after that would have been internal and swift. Not sure how they would spin the vast loss of troops against the reavers, without having to admit that the things were real...but I'm sure something would be found to explain it. I mean, it's the perfect opportunity to put troops on some planets, to protect against the reavers, isn't it? Hell, I'm just surprised they don't keep a box of them somewhere to unleash on worlds as an excuse to get called in. (Who knows?)

And the Miranda wave. Sad fact is, this is the bit that has never made sense to me in the BDM. The media is such a tricksy animal. I'm sure one broadcast could be squelched, dismissed, dumped down the schedule in favour of a sports match or a reality show. Sure, you could break in across a number of channels with it, but what happens afterwards? Was it a hoax? Lies? Opposition propaganda? I think Mal's cynical assessment is spot on. Folks will forget it and move on.

Except those politicians who spot a good opportunity to move in on opponents and accuse them. Those who decide to stand on a platform of morality and probity. Those who have corporate sponsership from companies who would love to asset strip Blue Sun.

I'm sorry. Am I ranting in a particularly cynical way? So tell me that I don't have a valid point.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:22 AM

JONGSSTRAW

All your points are vaild; probably more true to life than mine. Sometimes I forget that there is no reality....there are only individual perceptions of reality.

Yep, oppressive regimes are usually quite good at cleaning up their messes, and eliminating anybody that saw anything. After all, who's gonna believe a bunch of space thieves led by a scumbag Independent against the word of Parliament. The Tams certainly wouldn't.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:29 AM

I think if the Tams let themselves believe what they saw, what Simon tried to tell them, then their world would collapse. How could they live with the knowledge that they had done that to their own child/children? Better to bluster and rage, and toe the party line.

I've now started a weird chain of thought in my own head, about who might pick up on that broadcast and have the power to do something about it...

I love the 'Verse.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barticus:
Wow it's been a while since i thought about firefly (blasphemy i hear you cry) but to add to the thread and after thinking about it for a couple of years i have absolutely gotta say that if anything i am even more anti alliance than ever. I'm often surprised to see Americans supporting the alliance when it's obvious the founding fathers would be on the side of Mal and co...it doesn't matter if the Alliance has some good points, (i'm sure the British empire had a few - for the elite mainly) but overall the Alliance (like the British empire)is restricting, controlling and willing to put anyone to the sword who does not agree with their world view. This inability to even think that THEY might be wrong thus condemns them.
Hope this helps!

I would like to state my opinion that I think the alliance was right in forcing the border worlds into submission because it was the Alliance who terra-formed those moons and planets into Earth like bodies for their own people to settle. They did not go through all of the trouble and expense for people to move there and start their own governments. Were the rebels entirely at fault for wanting to rule them selves? No! I am sure the Alliance could have and should have done more to ensure the survival and success of the people who colonized the border planets and should have provided a sense of belonging to the alliance by placing on each of those planets a Governor who would be responsible for laying an infrastructure and for defense of those rocks, but they didn’t and the people on those rocks decided since they were on their own they should rule them selves.. With that said I think it may have been important for the rebels to have fought the war because by doing so they were able to voice their concerns so that even after the Alliance squashed them it had to address the many discrepancies so that everyone would have to accept their rule.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:50 AM

There's nothing to say that Governors were not appointed, and then decided to secede, is there?

The argument that the Alliance went to trouble and expense to terraform planets - Of course, this could all go a bit 'Battlefield:Earth', with the Alliance turning up to repossess a planet that has not met it's quota of production (yeah, I read the book - out of sheer disbelief.)

And I don't think any discrepanies will be addressed. Rebuilding on planets with natural resources, oh yes, but the dirtballs will just get left.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Never saw this thread before.....very interesting. The Alliance uses "agents" that leave trails of dead bodies; dead bodies all over the place..ie..Hands of Blue guys just wipe out an entire Alliance squad of police, leave them to fester in their own blood on a Core Planet...and no one is supposed to notice that? The Operative in the BDM wipes out people at the Academy...does anybody care? Who cleans up that mess? The "young miss" that the Operative addresses, what happens to her? Was she killed too, or does she just come back to work tomorrow? Come back and do what? Then the slaughter on Haven, and all of Mal's hangouts....is the citizenry all ok with this? Of course not, they're petrified, just like those living under the oppresive rule of the Nazis, or even the Empire from Star Wars. It is wrong to be pro-Alliance, unless you condone indiscriminate murder of innocents.

This sort of stuff probably happens all the time in our world today, but I think these types of incidents would be spun into being the faults murderous Tam's, by the Alliance and the Hands of Blue so that outrage would be leveled against the brother and sister and not the actual agents. Aren't the Tams responsible for all of those policemen's deaths by going onto the core planet though, when they must have known the Hands of Blue would do that to anyone who was in contact with River?

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
There's nothing to say that Governors were not appointed, and then decided to secede, is there?

The argument that the Alliance went to trouble and expense to terraform planets - Of course, this could all go a bit 'Battlefield:Earth', with the Alliance turning up to repossess a planet that has not met it's quota of production (yeah, I read the book - out of sheer disbelief.)

And I don't think any discrepanies will be addressed. Rebuilding on planets with natural resources, oh yes, but the dirtballs will just get left.

I did not read Battlefield Earth, so I cannot speak on that half, and maybe the Alliance did appoint Governors who decided to secede, but if they did appoint Governors then they didn’t do a very good job. Now to your quote, I would like to point out that it was spoken by Mal, that it was spoken by a bitter man who no longer was apart of the common man, so how can he speak for them? If it were a statement true before the war, then I think that quote shows that my scenario of the Alliance not providing any form of Government to lay the infrastructure of provide defense was probably more accurate.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:31 PM

?? What quote? I'm confused. I've lost the plot here (a not uncommon phenomenon). 'Cos all the rant is my very own.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:34 PM

WYTCHCROFT

LOL!!!!!!!!!

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Friday, July 11, 2008 12:40 AM

So you're telling me that last line of your previous post wasn't a quote? I assumed it was and that was the only way I could understand what you meant.