river's limits by wytchcroft

BLUE SUN ROOM

river's limits

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Sunday, April 19, 2009 21:10
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VIEWED: 17068
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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
River’s limits

Yes – this crops up every now and again –
(and it could be that I missed a recent post about it – if so please re-direct me!)
but I’m working on my first chapter based fic in a while and the issue of River comes back again…

do I have her kick some ass ala BDM

have unnatural combat training – Ariel

be a Reader – ala Safe

or just a child /woman growing up??

Do readers/writers have a preference?

I don't recall combat training from Ariel - you mean slashing Jayne?

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Friday, January 2, 2009 8:14 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
In the novelization, she spends a large amount of time dealing with boredom.

I don't remember that from the series or the film. Rather the reverse - she seemed to me to be endlessly interested in the the people and things around her. Playful and curious.

I gather that a number of great scientists and explorers had such character traits - and a surprising number of successful generals (before they became generals and had to act the part).

You will not learn anything about the world, unless you show an interest in it.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:00 AM

ANOTHERSKY

Thanks for the point about "psychicness", Moonpie.

River's not clairvoyant--can't see the future.

If you want to call her anything other than a Reader (which seems to be the verse equivalent anyway), River is a straight-up empath. An incredibly sensitive empath. Thus "Reader".

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:34 AM

BYTEMITE

EDIT: Shoot, someone else made the same point.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:58 AM

BYTEMITE

I really need to start reading threads the whole way through! I gave a knee-jerk reaction to someone's post about River's brand of psychic, realized someone made the same point and editted it, and then I get to the end and discover it would have been a perfectly good response to you, AnotherSky.

Well, anyway. I again bring up the Out of Gas scene, where River may or may not predict the engine fireball.

Unless River is reading Kaylee's reaction to how Serenity is acting and what Kaylee's fears are, River doesn't have the mechanical expertise to intuitively or logically predict fiery explosions from flickering lights, whether or not she's a genius. Is Kaylee's reaction fear or uncertainty? I always saw it as uncertainty.

But, I suppose it could be fear, especially if Kaylee's wondering if the port side catalyzer blew like she's been expecting.

In Ariel, I think River senses the man dying, so that doesn't have to be precognition at all.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:03 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I really need to start reading threads the whole way through! I gave a knee-jerk reaction to someone's post about River's brand of psychic, realized someone made the same point and editted it, and then I get to the end and discover it would have been a perfectly good response to you, AnotherSky.

Well, anyway. I again bring up the Out of Gas scene, where River may or may not predict the engine fireball.

Unless River is reading Kaylee's reaction to how Serenity is acting and what Kaylee's fears are, River doesn't have the mechanical expertise to intuitively or logically predict fiery explosions from flickering lights, whether or not she's a genius. Is Kaylee's reaction fear or uncertainty? I always saw it as uncertainty.

But, I suppose it could be fear, especially if Kaylee's wondering if the port side catalyzer blew like she's been expecting.

In Ariel, I think River senses the man dying, so that doesn't have to be precognition at all.

The man did not die. He could not know he was about to die, partly because he did not die. Even when you miss 4 consecutive heartbeats, you won't even know it unless you are practicing physiobiofeedback. River knew he would die if Simon did not intercept the incompetent doctor. River knew the doctor was going to kill the patient.
I do consider it a weak argument to say River was sensing something in current time, without sensing future, but I can agree that weak argument can be made. Even in today's world, it is a very small percentage of readers who are so limited that they can only read in current time, or even current plus past time. Most read so easily without regard to time that the greatest confusion is whether they are reading in past, present of future time.
I'll still adhere to the River is precog scenario. Fewer people would die them.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:08 PM

BYTEMITE

The Doctor didn't know he was killing the patient until the monitors started to go crazy, that's why Simon had to intervene. But River could possibly sense some sort of diminishing from the man, even if unconscious, as the bad drugs mixed and the man began to succumb to acute medical poisoning.

I think she's a little bit precog too, don't get me wrong.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The Doctor didn't know he was killing the patient until the monitors started to go crazy, that's why Simon had to intervene. But River could possibly sense some sort of diminishing from the man, even if unconscious, as the bad drugs mixed and the man began to succumb to acute medical poisoning.

I think she's a little bit precog too, don't get me wrong.

Right. The bad doctor did not know he was killing the patient, but River knew before it started to happen - you can see the drugs being injected AFTER River tells about it (or maybe as they are being injected).
The patient did not know he was dying, or falling deeper into sleep (post op heart jobs, the patient is not conscious).
River did not read the bad doc or the patient. River knew what was going to happen in the future, even if the immediate future.
Simon is also clueless about River being a reader, even after Ruby in Safe. Simon does not understand that River knows the doc is killing the patient, or is going to.

Saying a reader is a little bit precog is like saying geometry is a little bit curves and angles. It's just an integral part of the whole package. Current testing of readers has not shown significant degradation or accuracy when projecting future, and most of the time the readers cannot differentiate that the test is conducted in the future.
I should have also admitted that some readers can ONLY work with the future - apparently the current and past are too difficult to filter out what is read versus what learned from other sources, like news.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:58 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

I imagine that River's journey will, post-BDM, only become more complicated as she becomes more aware of her abilities. She can "see" into the truth of things but when it comes to her own destiny, and that of her brother's, things become a bit fuzzier.

I refer you to the BDM where she's not sure if her brother will "make her sleep" and knocks him unconcious. There are, to me at least, some unanswered questions about what the Alliance did to her while tampering with her brain. I picture her continuing to have nightmares, although not as frequent, about Alliance secrets and perhaps getting to see the truth about Serenity Valley. Simon, of course, will continue helping her cope with those dreams.

About the only thing that River could see in the future regarding her and Simon is his relationship with Kaylee and dealings with the crew. That's just a continuation of what's already been established by Joss throughout the series and in the BDM. I do see the interaction between her and the Captain becoming more involved (I think of the exchange between him and River in OiS, brilliant).

I also think that River would have all the usual growing pains of a teenager, including that of being a genius woman-child. She takes great joy in playing and seeing the beauty in things and not fully understanding the way adults behave in certain situations. Remember she's incredibly book-smart but, as Mal would put it, doesn't know the way of the world and needs some protection. I don't have a daughter, but I have several nieces and often think of them whenever I think of River in the series and in the BDM. Remember her curiousity at the end of the BDM when Simon and Kaylee embraced. She is still a little girl, to a large extent due to her "treatment" at the Academy, but also because she's been left to her own devices by her parents and often guided by her big brother in his capacity as MFSB.

Her future is her past.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
River’s limits

Yes – this crops up every now and again –
(and it could be that I missed a recent post about it – if so please re-direct me!)
but I’m working on my first chapter based fic in a while and the issue of River comes back again…

do I have her kick some ass ala BDM

have unnatural combat training – Ariel

be a Reader – ala Safe

or just a child /woman growing up??

Do readers/writers have a preference?
I have tried to explore all of these sides – and show possible limitations to her superpowers (!) - she gets shot, her reading is a slow and garbled process, it puts her in danger etc,
but River is the one character I have to virtually redesign with every fic ((if that makes sense) while keeping her ‘personality’ consistent to some degree.

Anyone else struggle with that?

How do most people approach River post-BDM if they are writing more than a single fic? There may NOT be a unified answer – just interested is all.

Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:43 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

I always thought that River was reacting to Serenity, moreso than to Kaylee, in that scene when she said "Fire."

I again bring up the Out of Gas scene, where River may or may not predict the engine fireball.

I think about her sensory trip through Serenity in OiS, and Simon's response to Kaylee (She loves this ship); how true that was. I imagined that she had made that "trip" several times throughout the ship in her alone time and whenever the crew were out and about being naughty. Something that she has done throughout the series: Bushwhacked comes to mind, Safe, Ariel, War Stories, OiS.

She "feels" the thing that is uppermost o the minds of the crew in OiS *(all except for Kaylee, or so Joss would have us think).
--------------------------------------

In Ariel, I think River senses the man dying, so that doesn't have to be precognition at all.

Agreed. She definitely senses his distress, but I think she also sense the young doctor's uncertainty as to the correct meds and dosage given.
----------------------------------------

On another thought: Here's my take on OiS. I believe River senses that there is something close to Serenity when Jubal's ship approaches. 2 things immediately come to mind; the voices in the opening shot and later Wash's response to the ship's sensors when Zoe comes up to the cockpit.
She walks through the ship feeling her way around. After she "eavesdrop" on the crew concerns
and Jubal boards Serenity, she quietly slips out and boards his ship.

I can see clearly now.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 11:45 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Regarding River not reading Simon.

No.
Part of the subliminal programming of a reader is making them blind to the command words about to be spoken. Otherwise, obviously, it would NEVER WORK.
That's what she cannot see or sense in advance. It's in her programming, not her lack of ability.

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Sunday, April 19, 2009 9:10 PM

ANOTHERSKY

I don't know if anyone is still reading this for fun or profit, but...

Here's a few more cents, real-life experience ones:

Out of Gas: I once "predicted" that our engine would die halfway through a road trip. Thankfully it only died after our destination. I was ten years old and hated mechanics, not interested,etc. There was no sound out of the ordinary but I could "feel" something wrong with the engine--it's a vague sense of something not fitting, not jiving, running down.

Ariel:
When I saw my great-aunt in LA she was no different than she had been in the last 3 years.
As I got up to leave however, I knew out of the blue that this would be the very last time I would see her. I thought I was being paranoid.

Until I woke one morning a few months later. I was fine until it was almost time to leave the house in the afternoon--I should have been excited, but instead it was like a heavy weight had hit me. I felt numb. Then someone called and said she had just died in the hospital after being taken in suddenly that morning.

Sometimes you feel things. I believe that a lot of "gut feelings"--my great-aunt nowithstanding--are based on a compilation of tiny details we pick up without noticing

Being highly intelligent AND highly sensitive to begin with (plus alliance enhancement), River's subconscious would be a kleptomaniac with the "irrevelent" details. Think House.

I'd also like to say that this thread has been IMMENSELY entertaining, and astute: River is NOT your average 17/18 year old plus a veneer of supercoolbadassery on top. She isn't a regular girl ANY way you look at her, and thus shouldn't be expected to follow that timeline. She isn't a superhero with a secret identity-Joss plays with that nicely, mocking it--her skill, her genius and her trauma are all very deeply intertwined and infuse EVERY aspect of who she is. Were she completely un-damaged by the Alliance, you would STILL have a VERY different girl than the one who jumps Jayne and Mal in their bunks in some of the space-porn I've seen floating around.

Suddenly she's all better and the best way to get rid of any lingering troubles (of any type), to "heal fully" is to physically and emotionally weld to the nearest available male? This warrants a River comment on a similar proposal by Simon:

"You are such a boob."

No...simply....no. First, she's too traumatized= trust issues, processing issues, sorting-out issues. Second, she's just plain too intelligent, meaning her IQ is still too high to feasibly jump into something like that "to make it all go away", and it leads to a lot more issues, as pissy as people want to get about it.
The ONLY way I could see river having sex period at this point is pure experimental hedonism, (ie experiential) detatched from herself. And that is reeeeeeaaaallllly stretching it. Things of this nature seem to be serious to her.

A question of my own after that long rant: Had River not been outwardly "sexed up for the BDM" as it was put on another thread, would this even be an issue?
Is there pre-serenity fic that has her doing this?

Another Sky

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