BLUE SUN ROOM

More about sex and Inara

POSTED BY: MAL4PREZ
UPDATED: Saturday, August 1, 2009 09:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 16252
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Friday, June 19, 2009 1:05 PM

MAL4PREZ


I don't want to further drag down a fun thread with my “serious” talk , so I'll move the tangent here. In the "What song would Inara sing ?" thread ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=38775), this post got me thinking:

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Inara actually doesn't strike me as a singer at all. She seems too private and reserved for that, and she enjoys focusing on other people, professionally.

I could more easily see her play piano for someone else's singing, or being a painter/photographer who does artsy portraits.


And here's some of the following exchanges:

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Does alternate universe mean alternate characterizations? Cause, gotta say, I agree with AR.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, not really, unless that's the point of the alternate universe, but then why write in the characters at all?

However, Inara could still be the same character in a different job (Even though canon Inara might disagree with me!). I don't know why that's so unreasonable.

Granted, her job is part of what makes the conflict she has with Mal so interesting, and none of that has ever really been resolved, and that's why I like her in it...

But a universe with a superstar songstress/opera singer Inara who wants to live a quiet modest life, but is under increasing stress from her fans and managers could also be an interesting take on the verse.

If she's really high A-list, it could throw in commentary on social class that Firefly and Serenity really only brush the surface of. Increases the gap, if you will, because even though Inara is higher on the social totem pole than most of the Rim, my impression is she's still mostly on the outside looking in at society royalty.



Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
I see what Rouka means, about how reserved Inara is, but I don't think it would entirely preclude her from any kind of performance. That might be part of the duality of her. After all, the Inara we know practices a profession in which she has very intimate contact with her audience, and at the very same time retains her distance and privacy. It might be very intriguing to see on stage. I've been thinking about this, imagining her as a very low-key, restrained presence, perhaps at a piano, but with a voice that communicates so much emotion it's almost mesmerizing...and then offstage she's as buttoned up and reserved as the Inara we know and love. Hearing that voice, wondering at the heart behind it, but never being able to touch it...that's where I'd see our Mal in this AU.

*snip*

All very personal and introspective, I can see her sharing so much with her voice but then insisting on the distance and almost keeping aloof (through diffidence) offstage.


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I find that a fundamental restructuring and simplification of Inara. It reduces her to a female *object* right out of the age of American Idol pop culture. ie: girl innocently practices her art, completely unaware of how her amazing talent makes her inner lovable goddess shine out, and she unwittingly reduces the hero of the tale to a gooey puddle of starry-eyed puppy love...

Sorry. It's just too Disney TV movie for me! (ETA: Wow, wasn't meaning that to be as bitchy as it sounds! Sorry about that.)

And anyway, I really don't see Inara as a performer. She certainly lives in a spotlight, but she very knowingly and intentionally makes use of it to do her job. See, here's the thing: what she does in the public eye does not reveal her true self; it is an act designed to attract and service her clients. In the series, she does calligraphy in private. She doesn't rent out a studio and show her finished work. Similarly, I could see her singing in private, but I don't see her singing with true, heartfelt passion in front an audience. She'd sing publicly only as part of her act, part of her job as a Companion.

Speaking of which: I find it interesting that the AUs discussed in this thread have the Firefly characters finding their way to their usual jobs - except Inara. Kaylee is still a mechanic, Mal and Zoe are still the leaders, but Inara is no longer a whore.

Sure, we can argue the semantics of "whore" vs "Companion", but the fact remains that canon Inara has sex for money. Changing her to a steamy lounge singer or ivory tower opera diva ignores her most defining characteristic: she's a gold-hearted whore. She's a deeply caring woman who lives to make intimate connections with people, but does it in a way that leaves her completely isolated. I find this fascinating, and I'm sad to see this part of her character lopped off as if it doesn't matter.



Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Is it lopped off? Or is it redirected?

Could Mal dislike Inara sharing herself with fans just as much as he might with clients? Wouldn't Inara be isolated this way, even as her singing tricks her fans into thinking they know her?

I understand WHAT you're driving at, though. You don't like that the sex part of it has been taken out of the equation, because the sex is what makes for a whole lot of fun jealous friction.

and you also see this as Inara being... Sanitized, maybe. And taking away her feminine power.

I don't disagree. In fact I've said that I LIKE her in her job.

But people are going to write fanfiction, and people are going to dislike Inara's whoring and want to make her into something they find more acceptable. I don't think you can fight the tide.

I'm just going with the flow here, and making suggestions that will help keep up the dynamic that I like about Inara still interesting.


Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
Mal4Prez, I feel compelled to answer, since I find myself the only one quoted in your post.

girl innocently practices her art, completely unaware of how her amazing talent makes her inner lovable goddess shine out, and she unwittingly reduces the hero of the tale to a gooey puddle of starry-eyed puppy love...

I agree that this particular iteration of the story would make the female character into someone other than the Inara of Firefly, and into a less powerful and interesting character. But that's only one possibility for the story, and not the one I was musing on, or intending to contribute. If my words suggested I wanted Inara to be girlish, innocent, and unaware of the effect of her craft, I apologize too :).

There are performers who, no matter the intensity of what they share with their audience, are quite introverted and contemplative off-stage, and not comfortable with sharing themselves personally.



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Friday, June 19, 2009 1:10 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Could Mal dislike Inara sharing herself with fans just as much as he might with clients? Wouldn't Inara be isolated this way, even as her singing tricks her fans into thinking they know her?
It is an interesting parallel - a woman's ownership of her voice as compared to the ownership of her body. Certainly, there's a similarity of theme there. But I didn't see this in the discussion on the other thread (not until the end). What I was responding to was more this idea that Mal will hear Inara sing and therefore be more in love with her. Sure, great romance, but romance that changes her character, is my assertion.

And no, I don’t expect most folks to agree. Hence the warning on my post! Really, AR’s post just got me thinking, and it’s been a long time since I had new thoughts about these characters, so I wanted to hear myself talk a bit. And I’m not done listening.

The thing is, singing doesn't compare to whoring as far as challenging people's assumptions. I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara dynamic, I’m talking the relationship between us (the fans and fic writers) and Inara.

One of the most unique aspects of Inara (Kaylee too) is her sexuality. She is openly into sex without being dirty, or lowly, or jaded. I think a lot of fans, as much as we love this show, aren’t uncomfortable [edit: I meant "aren't comfortable" of course!] with this. It's pretty rare that Inara (or Kaylee) play the field for long in fanfic. Come to think of it, I must include myself in this. I didn't put much effort into bringing in new partners for Kaylee or new clients for Inara. Honestly, it would have been hard for me to maintain the ladies' sexual independence and still pursue the S/K and M/I romantic possibilities. Curses! I just have too much monogamy programmed into me, so I reverted to what’s easier to write.

By which I mean to step back and question my own assumptions about women's sexuality. Why must we sanitize Inara (good word!) by making her a singer or shop owner? Why are we so uncomfortable with allowing her to keep her trade, whether in an AU or in our own extensions on the canon verse?

Because sex is a MUCH different thing than singing, that's why. Again, I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara UST, I’m talking our ability to accept Inara (or Kaylee) as she is.


Quote:
I understand WHAT you're driving at, though. You don't like that the sex part of it has been taken out of the equation, because the sex is what makes for a whole lot of fun jealous friction.
Not quite. It's not the jealous friction I’m interested in at the moment. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Mal.


Quote:
But people are going to write fanfiction, and people are going to dislike Inara's whoring and want to make her into something they find more acceptable. I don't think you can fight the tide.
Not trying to. I never said no one should write it, just saying I don’t entirely agree with it and explaining why, because I think character discussions are fun. The tide can flow where it likes, won’t stop my mouth from running in its own direction.

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Friday, June 19, 2009 1:17 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
Mal4Prez, I feel compelled to answer, since I find myself the only one quoted in your post.
My criticism wasn’t all aimed at you. I’m lazy about quoting one thing to get me going in my rant, then I move on to reply to a lot of stuff, including things not even on the thread. (ie My experience with Inara and Kaylee characterizations in all manner of fics over the past 4 years.) I’m sorry that I made you feel targeted, I didn’t mean it! My post did come off a bit bitchy, didn’t it?

Quote:
There are performers who, no matter the intensity of what they share with their audience, are quite introverted and contemplative off-stage, and not comfortable with sharing themselves personally.
I agree – being exactly that sort myself. But like I replied to Bytemite above, I think there’s a big difference between performing for a crowd and having sex with a unending string of strangers. Big big BIG difference!

So, without meaning to suggest that your intended fic ideas are bad, I still think there’s a fundamental shift to Inara’s character in changing her from a Companion to a shy, reserved singer.

Uh… Ok, a clever writer could pull it off and even do really cool things with it. But it take some ingenuity!

But if (I'm not at all implying this is true of you Gillian Rose, just talking fic generalities) if the whole point of making Inara a singer is to make Mal fall in love with her more, that’s like Mary Sue 101, is what I’m saying. Or Disney TV movie ick! LOL!


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Friday, June 19, 2009 2:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:


[edit]

It is an interesting parallel - a woman's ownership of her voice as compared to the ownership of her body. Certainly, there's a similarity of theme there. But I didn't see this in the discussion on the other thread (not until the end). What I was responding to was more this idea that Mal will hear Inara sing and therefore be more in love with her. Sure, great romance, but romance that changes her character, is my assertion.

And no, I don’t expect most folks to agree. Hence the warning on my post! Really, AR’s post just got me thinking, and it’s been a long time since I had new thoughts about these characters, so I wanted to hear myself talk a bit. And I’m not done listening.

The thing is, singing doesn't compare to whoring as far as challenging people's assumptions. I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara dynamic, I’m talking the relationship between us (the fans and fic writers) and Inara.

One of the most unique aspects of Inara (Kaylee too) is her sexuality. She is openly into sex without being dirty, or lowly, or jaded. I think a lot of fans, as much as we love this show, aren’t uncomfortable with this. It's pretty rare that Inara (or Kaylee) play the field for long in fanfic. Come to think of it, I must include myself in this. I didn't put much effort into bringing in new partners for Kaylee or new clients for Inara. Honestly, it would have been hard for me to maintain the ladies' sexual independence and still pursue the S/K and M/I romantic possibilities. Curses! I just have too much monogamy programmed into me, so I reverted to what’s easier to write.

By which I mean to step back and question my own assumptions about women's sexuality. Why must we sanitize Inara (good word!) by making her a singer or shop owner? Why are we so uncomfortable with allowing her to keep her trade, whether in an AU or in our own extensions on the canon verse?

Because sex is a MUCH different thing than singing, that's why. Again, I’m not talking about the Mal/Inara UST, I’m talking our ability to accept Inara (or Kaylee) as she is.

[edit]

Not quite. It's not the jealous friction I’m interested in at the moment. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Mal.


[edit]

Not trying to. I never said no one should write it, just saying I don’t entirely agree with it and explaining why, because I think character discussions are fun. The tide can flow where it likes, won’t stop my mouth from running in its own direction.


I doubt Inara's singing is ALL that Mal would like about her. My own thinking on that matter is that he's attracted BECAUSE Inara stirs things up for him emotionally, and it's been a long time (pretty much since the war) since he's felt much besides his usual post-war range. That's what I think he likes about her. Her looks, and maybe in this case, her voice, those would all contribute, but even more than that, it's personality, it's how she makes him feel. And I mean that in a number of ways.

That might be off topic too. I'm very skilled at going off topic.

As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so. Using Kaylee's example, she's a mechanic, not a lot of room for being cute, chirpy, and sexual, but Kaylee is that. Inara could easily keep that aspect of her character; she might even stay as liberated as she is as a companion, and have a large number of partners. Often.

But you bring up the "why people sanitize Inara" question. I guess it has to do with our own moral judgment calls; some people just aren't going to be comfortable with Inara unless she's completely monogamous and in "traditional female roles" (of which I don't think there are any).

But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want to tone down her liberated side to extrapolate on her sweeter side, and make her fit better into their established conceptions.

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Friday, June 19, 2009 5:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Off topic again, but I have to comment:

This thread title is perfectly engineered to bring in many, many people. :)


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Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:42 AM

GILLIANROSE


There are so many things that make Inara a fascinating character, it's hard for me to know where to start. There is her work as a Companion - I really like how Morena Baccarin describes it: she's "an ambassador for sex." What's very interesting to me, and intrinsic to Inara as a character, is the orthodoxy of her career within the context of her culture. She's not working outside the law, or even outside the domain of societal approval (I am talking about her culture/society of origin, obviously Companions and their work are not accepted by everyone and Inara is well aware of this). Book describes her as "respectable" in The Train Job. Inara is a highly skilled professional working in a career that requires rigorous, thorough, and continuing education (Companions "never stop practicing...not a true Companion"). We hear her describe her shuttle as a consecrated space; we hear references to a House Priestess. From this I infer that there is a strong spiritual component to Companion training and work. When I see her talking post-intercourse with Fes Higgins, I am reminded of a therapist, clergy, or very trusted advisor. She is the epitome of cultured, elegant beauty at the ball with Atherton Wing - she makes him look good, tactless, violent dolt that he is. And sex work, described as "the art of love" in the Blu Ray Companion documents, is centrai to her work. Inara is clearly a highly capable and intelligent individual. Her intelligence and accomplishments, her place within an established order like the Guild, make her interestingly similar to Book and Simon. One could surmise that she had any number of career paths open to her, and she chose to be a Companion. To me, this illuminates both the character of Inara and the idea of the Companion. She's a sex worker. In what way is she also like clergy? In what way is she also like a therapist, either for mental/emotional issues or like the massage therapist I go to when I'm out of alignment and in pain? Is she at times an entertainer, someone who provides an enjoyable experience? Does she serve needs or desires? Art, beauty, love, communication, connection, intimacy, excitement, mystery...what do human beings really need? What can we do without? These are some of the questions that Inara and Firefly make me think about. This is why I love her, and the 'verse Joss created.

I don't imagine someone of Inara's capabilities and wisdom would choose, and persist in a career that she didn't enjoy, that didn't give her professional satisfaction. It's a deep human need, to do meaningful work. I admire Inara for being a hard-working professional, in the best sense of the word. She is a professional: she has a well-defined sense of who she is and the work that she does. She doesn't let the circumstances around her, the people who fail to appreciate her, influence her into being less than she is, than she has chosen to be. Her dignified constancy in the face of Higgins' rude bluster, as a response to her client from the pilot, even when Atherton Wing has expressed a wish to maim and starve her - it's admirable, it's beautiful. I love her for it. Joss has said that it's very easy for people to change for the worse, usually in response to the people around them. Inara doesn't do this, I would say, because of her very strong conviction about who she is and what she does. She's a hero. To me.

All this being said, Companions retire. Joss says so. I don't buy the fics that have Inara ocntinue to be a Companion because that's "all she knows, that's all she's ever imagined herself to be." From the little we know about the Guild, I infer that some Companions stay within the Guild in some capacity (House Priestess?) for their entire professional careers. We know that Inara had considered that, but that now, for whatever reason, she's on a different path. I don't have a problem with a story in which Inara retires and goes on to another career, one that better suits her, what is important to her, and what she wants to do with her life at that time. It's something I love and admire about my non-imaginary, bright, accomplished women friends: how resourceful and flexible they are, how they choose and orchestrate big career/life change over the years to do what is important to them, whether that be more schooling, parenting, pursuing other creative or intellectual interests, taking care of ailing parents, working for change in the political sphere...any of us could add to this list. We do what needs doing, we find a way. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that at some point Inara might choose to be other than a Companion if another career better fit her priorities. Do I want her to retire to make Mal feel better? No. He's got some learnin' to do, that man. But that's a whole 'nother my-fingers-are-getting-tired post.

As for AU fanfics in which Inara is not a sex worker, yes, it's clear that this is a way for an author who's uncomfortable with whoring to make it go away. But also, Companioning as I see it, the respectable, established profession doesn't have an easy analog in our world.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 3:18 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
That might be off topic too. I'm very skilled at going off topic.
LOL! But off-topic is the source of much goodness.

Anyway, what you say about Mal's attraction to Inara is quite nice. I don't often put much thought into what exactly it is about her that gets to him. As you say, it certainly is something besides her good looks. Her soothing presence has to be welcome to him. Even if she's not always so soothing LOL!

Quote:
As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so.
But Inara is different from Kaylee in that she doesn't have affairs for her own fun. A music star who sleeps around for her own amusement is very different from a counselor/care-taker/escort who includes sex in her services.

Sex is not just sex for Inara. It's not something she does for her own physical pleasure. It's a tool she uses to fulfill the needs of others. So maybe (uh, making this up as I go) sex itself is not the point for Inara - the reason for the sex is what defines her.


Quote:
But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want to tone down her liberated side to extrapolate on her sweeter side, and make her fit better into their established conceptions.

I can totally see that. It is easier, and much funner, to make the ladies sweet and non-controversal. Avoid the pesky issues that Inara's a whore and Kaylee's easy.


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Saturday, June 20, 2009 3:23 AM

MAL4PREZ


GR:

Whoa. Good post.

Much to think about!

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 3:31 AM

AGENTROUKA


You guys are so cool. I haven't seen as enjoyable Inara discussions in a long while.



In terms of sanitizing Inara... painfully common. There is a substantial majority of writers and fanfic that drive me to distraction with what I guess has been called anti-feminist backlash. It burns.

And I agree with Mal4Prez that singing and sex just don't make a good equivalent in terms of transgressing comfort zones. Altering her job in any way, really, is cheating because it removes the one, fundamental conflict between them, basically handing victory to Mal, either by making someone else the bad guy (Evil Guild) or lobotomizing Inara (I don't mind giving up my job!).

The thing that I have trouble dealing with sometimes is my suspicion that although Joss created this character that was a revelation to me, I don't trust that even he would have allowed her to stick to her job without the ultimate "punishment" of losing love in the process. Or just not resolving the conflict at all by distracting from it with her big secret.

It's always my greatest happiness when someone seriously deals with Mal and Inara without eliminating her job, truly working on a compromise, or at least really aknowledging the cost of changing the status quo, in terms of their conflict still needing resolution. It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
As for sexuality being part of Inara's character, I don't think a career change might necessarily make Inara less so.
But Inara is different from Kaylee in that she doesn't have affairs for her own fun. A music star who sleeps around for her own amusement is very different from a counselor/care-taker/escort who includes sex in her services.

Sex is not just sex for Inara. It's not something she does for her own physical pleasure. It's a tool she uses to fulfill the needs of others. So maybe (uh, making this up as I go) sex itself is not the point for Inara - the reason for the sex is what defines her.


Is it? I don't think Inara would have involved herself with Atherton in Shindig if she had found out the last couple of times he contracted her that he was a chauvinistic pig. Inara accepted Atherton's bid for her company over apparently an awkward young man, likely first-timer, much like Fess Higgins. And I think Inara did that because she wanted to have a good time, relax, and go to a party. And in War Stories, when Kaylee wishes Inara luck with her "Have good sex!" line, Inara didn't get all uppity about her profession and the spiritual side then. I imagine the conversations she has with Kaylee are often about what they enjoy in that capacity.

I think Inara enjoys sex, and enjoys multiple partners. I don't think she could perform her job and not feel "easy" or taken advantage of if she were wired any other way.


Quote:
Quote:
But because a lot of Mal/Inara shippers are, I believe, female... It might also be a trace of anti-feministic backlash. It's gotten to the point where I think some people think that "girl power" means "a bitch in a suit," and, not seeing Inara that way, these authors decide they want to tone down her liberated side to extrapolate on her sweeter side, and make her fit better into their established conceptions.

I can totally see that. It is easier, and much funner, to make the ladies sweet and non-controversal. Avoid the pesky issues that Inara's a whore and Kaylee's easy.


Or they could just like writing Disney-esque fluff. Primitive as fairy tales are and the bothersome roles in them, what's charming about them is that they are fun and simple. I haven't grown up so much that I can't enjoy them, though that one part of my mind does still keep saying "I really wish the girl would make a stand here." But in recent years, pop-culture has been putting more spunk in their Princesses, and I appreciate that.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:47 AM

GILLIANROSE


One of the things I love about Joss is his ability to take overused, groan worthy ideas and put them right in his stories and make them more. The surprise little sister. The baby son who in the course of one season becomes the ass-kicking teenaged hottie rebel. The robot. The inexplicable musical. The oops-I'm-married. And I really enjoy the noir aspects of Firefly as much as the Western aspects. So I bet it could be done, a Mal's Cafe Americain...maybe just AU it to the degree that Companions exist in pre-Castro Havana or Roaring 20's Chicago or the South Pacific or wherever. She comes to the bar, although she clearly doesn't belong, and Mal doesn't know why. She won't say. She brings in too many customers for him to put his foot down over whatever transgressive behavior (in his eyes) she commits. She keeps him in the black (hehee).

Here is something I just started thinking about: secret or forbidden knowledge. River has it. Book has it. In Mal's eyes, Inara has it (her wiles) and would continue to have it even if she were no longer a practicing Companion. I think of Inara as a pan-disciplinary scholar of human sexuality. There are situations in which using her knowledge is the right thing to do, the moral thing to do. More on this later, it's a fic idea I started and then an anvil fell on it. Forbidden/secret knowledge - talk amongst yourselves.

Also, what about a story of Inara retiring and regretting it?

Kaylee's not easy! I will not call anyone bitchy (it's been too much used to try to shame opinionated women) and I will say that "easy" is a cad's word. I'm not complaining, M4P, I read the affection in that sentence. Here's what Kaylee is to me: MMMMMSEX! She, unlike several people on the ship (I'm looking at you, Mal, Simon, Book, and even you, off-duty Inara, where Mal is concerned) is not in the business of pretending she doesn't have urges. She's not in the business of pretending that a sweet, hot man she meets doesn't have lips and hands and good smelling skin and yes! fun man parts. Jewel calls her a floozy who wears her heart on her sleeve. MMMMMMMSEX!

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:09 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.


And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:27 AM

PLATONIST


What I'd really like to see is a fic where Mal and Inara start a physical relationship, Inara sticks to her job, Mal's okay with it and it's no biggy (kinda like when she left:) after all it's only business, like she says, and he needs to keep Serenity flying, and Inara is the one who is somewhat bothered by Mal's acceptance and
encouragement. I wonder how that would make her feel about his feelings for her and her job? Are they genuine or not? Would she still love him and have respect for him? How would she react to him having another, like Nandi?

Is it harder on the sex worker or the lover of the sex worker?

Talk about emotionally messy, no wonder the Guild retires Companions.











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Saturday, June 20, 2009 9:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.


And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.

Heads should roll


Not really...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2914003/1/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2919770/1/Repercussions

These two are the best examples I've ever seen. The two of them have compromised, but OH HOLY GRAVY, it's all hurty in the right places.

But isn't that what a relationship is? Compromise?

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:36 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
It's not just a practical conflict, after all, it's a philosophical one, about judgment and acceptance and respect.


And willingness to share? Hmm. Still seems to me like Mal ends up being lobotomised this way.

Heads should roll


I disagree. In "Heart of Gold" he was about to declare his feelings to Inara, job or not, and I doubt it was going to be followed by "But only if you quit the life you love".

Inara wouldn't ask that of Mal (and if she did, she'd be villified like nobody's business) but Mal asking it of Inara is somehow the expected thing. Because it's kinda difficult for him. Oh no. Can't have that.

It's like Mal4Prez says, she's not sleeping with her clients for physical pleasure or personal intimacy. It's her job and profession. It's not "sharing" her in those respects.

It's not a lobotomy if it's compromise. I'm sure there's a way the two could meet in the middle. Maybe fewer clients. Maybe a mutually agreed time limit. Something other than the automatic "She must quit her job".

Would it be the relationship Mal dreamed of having when he was young and imagining his future? Probably not. But it's also not what Inara imagined for her future. The two can only exist in the form of a compromise and it'd only be fair for the two of them to move toward one another, not for Inara to make one giant sacrifice and Mal... nothing.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 1:35 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
The two can only exist in the form of a compromise and it'd only be fair for the two of them to move toward one another, not for Inara to make one giant sacrifice and Mal... nothing.


Yeah it doesn't sound particularly fair when you put it like that. But then again companions must be prepared to retire early and move on - they're going to have to find new paths in their lives going into their 30s or 40s anyway right (or perhaps earlier if they want a family)?

I have to admit Inara is a bit of a mystery to me, why she does the job she does - if I fully understood that then I would confidently suggest other ways she could fulfil her life...

For example if she enjoys nurturing and helping people she could become a teacher of some kind. But if she just enjoys sex with different people and doesn't want to give that up - well how is that a different requirement to what we would typically all expect from someone we're entering into a relationship with - a commitment to monogamy?

You women are sensitive about 'a woman having to give up her job', but this is a special situation, it's not often that a job cuts right through the confines of a relationship like this.

I like this question that platonist posed: "Would she still love him and have respect for him?"

I guess we're asking 'is monogamy a noble instinct?' - or one we should sometimes have to transcend/rise above? Hmm.

Bytemite I'll check out those fanfics later.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:07 PM

RIVERLOVE


Jayne was right when he said that his lifestyle is short-lived. As Mal gets older, one day perhaps after a good score, he will want to or have to leave outer space to go plant roots somewhere. Maybe a nice ranch or farm. Who better to have at your side in a new life than Inara. I think she's getting bored and dis-illusioned with her so-called glamorous life. She yearns to wear an old pair of space jeans, and to share a simple and joyous life with Mal and their kids.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 5:28 PM

GILLIANROSE


I agree that Mal's lifestyle is not one that would get easier to sustain as the years go on. And, I could see Inara leaving Sihnon due to some restlessness, some kind of wanting to explore other life possibilities. Maybe she wasn't leading a fulfilling life on Sihnon - her private reaction in the pilot when her young client is gushing about it says a lot to me. But I think leaving Serenity and settling anywhere would be a tremendously difficult step for Mal - he wants to be able to keep one step away from the Alliance, and he's already lost one home. And when I watch the episodes I see Inara yearning, yes, for Mal, but I don't see her expressing frustration or feeling constrained by her career or the attendant glamour. I think she's proud of herself and her accomplishments, and it may be the case that she enjoys dressing elegantly and surrounding herself with beauty. Some women do, and that's not an illegitimate choice, or one that speaks poorly of her character.

And yes, Inara would be a great partner to have at your side making a home and raising a family. Would Mal, the Mal Inara knows?

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:40 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2914003/1/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2919770/1/Repercussions


Very good fanfics Byte, espec. the first one. They seem quite faithful to the depth of the situation - the difficulty in this relationship isn't going to go away or solve itself. But I guess Joss wrote in that difficulty purposefully, so that it would take several tortuous series of the show to finally get to a happy ending of some sort - if we were lucky.

Quote:
Maybe fewer clients.


Maybe only women? Nah - perhaps if Mal was Wash, or Jayne (of course), that might be a mutually acceptable compromise. But he's Mal, and even if he could, we shouldn't want him to change.

"I gave her my heart, but she wanted my soul..."


Heads should roll

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:58 PM

BYTEMITE


If you know how to write it, there is no way either Mal OR Inara can be lobotomized. Joss made sure of that, because the situation is just COMPLICATED.

I pretty much see this as the way they'll inevitably go. It's the only way that Joss can really address the issues that the Guild introduces between them. And it's also the only way they can be in a relationship and both remain in character.

However... I have no problem seeing Inara go into another career, especially if it's one that reinforces the skills and feminine power that she brings to the crew as a Companion. I've always thought that Inara could make a very good politician. Or, in the script for Trash, and hints in The Message, I see a lot of foreshadowing that Inara might actually be willing to take up a criminal lifestyle.

If Inara were to go criminal, would she take up a distraction role? Or would that betray the principles of using her sexuality for healing and good?

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:02 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:


And yes, Inara would be a great partner to have at your side making a home and raising a family. Would Mal, the Mal Inara knows?


He's been pretty good at raising a family already, dontcha know. Buuuut... He probably would need a little work. Pulling a gun on Jayne at the dinner table might work on the ship, but it's really not going to fly with a five year old. Mal's got some issues, and yeah, I think he'd have to mellow out some and let go of some bitterness and anger before he could seriously attempt to settle down anywhere.

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Saturday, June 20, 2009 7:58 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

Yeah it doesn't sound particularly fair when you put it like that. But then again companions must be prepared to retire early and move on - they're going to have to find new paths in their lives going into their 30s or 40s anyway right (or perhaps earlier if they want a family)?


You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.

As for age, I agree that at some point a new path is required, but Inara's maybe 27 and has lots of time before her 40's. Quitting now would be a big choice, and unfair to just expect.

Quote:

I have to admit Inara is a bit of a mystery to me, why she does the job she does - if I fully understood that then I would confidently suggest other ways she could fulfil her life...


But you're willing to allow that she loves her job and enjoys it, yes? Even if you don't understand why? That's a very refreshing attitude. Many people just project their own discomfort onto her and assume she must secretly hate her job and its lifestyle.

Quote:

For example if she enjoys nurturing and helping people she could become a teacher of some kind. But if she just enjoys sex with different people and doesn't want to give that up - well how is that a different requirement to what we would typically all expect from someone we're entering into a relationship with - a commitment to monogamy?


You discount that she is not having sex with them because "she enjoys sex with different people" recreationally. Sex is a part of what she does. Her job, in its entirety, the things she was so highly trained to do exceptionally well, is what she enjoys, including using sex.

You can't just replace that with a generic "helping people" ersatz profession like teaching. Teaching what? Give one-hour lessons in tea ceremony on planets where the crew has work? Very fulfilling.

Is sex had professionally, without the incentive of physical recreation or emotional intimacy, with both partners knowing about it, really the same break of monogamy that adultery is, or that a multiple partner relationship would be?

Quote:

You women are sensitive about 'a woman having to give up her job', but this is a special situation, it's not often that a job cuts right through the confines of a relationship like this.


I actually think it's not just "us women" who are sensitive about being expected to give up a fulfilling career. ANYone would be. It's a human thing, not a woman thing.

So they are in a special situation. So are military spouses. Either you love the person enough to accept their difficult profession and make it work, or you don't. I honestly think Mal has it in him. Just like many many military spouses out there. And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way, what with absences, the stress of uncertainty, perhaps mental and physical trauma or death on the menue.

Quote:

I like this question that platonist posed: "Would she still love him and have respect for him?"


I really think so. It's not at all the same thing as Mal going off and finding himself someone else to shag and be emotionally intimate with. THAT would break monogamy for certain. It's also not the same thing as expecting Mal to swallow THAT.

This is her profession. Mal being generous and brave enough to give her that freedom... how could she not love him and respect him for it?


Quote:

I guess we're asking 'is monogamy a noble instinct?' - or one we should sometimes have to transcend/rise above? Hmm.


Sure it's a noble instinct. Jealousy is natural and painful, you can't just control it easily, monogamy is a semi-natural solution to that. Mutual sacrifice of promiscuity for the sake of committment.

But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love. Would it be easy for Mal? Not really. But Mal himself isn't an easy person to be with. He's not as much of a catch as some people like to make him out to be. Bad tempered, likes to take out his bad moods on others, has a slight sadistic streak, is disrespectful when it suits him and is quite emotionally scarred. If Inara can accept that, he can work on wrapping his head around what Inara's work really is and tolerating her doing it.

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 5:28 AM

BYTEMITE


I noticed your post in the other thread, AR, and felt the need to reply.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Now that I know the true nature of the AU, I'm actually kind of starting to like the idea.

It takes on a whole new significance if in this dream, Mal imagines Inara as a singer rather than, say, a prostitute hanging out at the bar.

In a sweet way, it implies that what Mal really sees as standing between them is a social barrier of some sort, not misgivings about Inara's sexual profession. Inara elevated on stage level (Pedestal? Idealising Inara by completely separating the "real" her from her dirty, dirty job?), Mal on the floor below, lured in by her mysterious siren song, helpless to escape impending doom (Wiles! Scary wiles!).

I bet he sees himself this way some days, an unwitting victim of this love that somehow happened to him against his will. Not all days, but some.

Cool.



Yep! All the signs are there that it's really not her profession at all.

Pilot episode. Calls her a whore to her face (and to the Shepherd's), but when she's away, he's calling her job the only honest one of everyone on Serenity.

Or the way he understands that the people of Triumph aren't her "clientele," that's a comment on her social station as he perceives it.

He thinks ALL of her clients aren't worthy of her. And he's pretty sure he's not either. This is shown in Our Mrs. Reynold's in how he completely overlooks a more likely explanation for Inara being drugged in favour of her kissing Saffron. The other possibility probably doesn't even occur to him, and if it did, he must have dismissed it as completely ludicrous.

Shindig really brings this out, if you know where to look for it. As does, I think, Heart of Gold, in Mal's reasons for sleeping with Nandi when both of them recognize his feelings for Inara.

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 5:35 AM

BYTEMITE


It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.

But it's very hard to talk about Inara WITHOUT talking about Mal and her tricky relationship with him.

Thankfully, I think that's more of a shipper thing than that one feminism violating rule, you know, where supposedly women can't have a conversation without talking about men?

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 6:19 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I noticed your post in the other thread, AR, and felt the need to reply.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Now that I know the true nature of the AU, I'm actually kind of starting to like the idea.

It takes on a whole new significance if in this dream, Mal imagines Inara as a singer rather than, say, a prostitute hanging out at the bar.

In a sweet way, it implies that what Mal really sees as standing between them is a social barrier of some sort, not misgivings about Inara's sexual profession. Inara elevated on stage level (Pedestal? Idealising Inara by completely separating the "real" her from her dirty, dirty job?), Mal on the floor below, lured in by her mysterious siren song, helpless to escape impending doom (Wiles! Scary wiles!).

I bet he sees himself this way some days, an unwitting victim of this love that somehow happened to him against his will. Not all days, but some.

Cool.



Yep! All the signs are there that it's really not her profession at all.

Pilot episode. Calls her a whore to her face (and to the Shepherd's), but when she's away, he's calling her job the only honest one of everyone on Serenity.

Or the way he understands that the people of Triumph aren't her "clientele," that's a comment on her social station as he perceives it.

He thinks ALL of her clients aren't worthy of her. And he's pretty sure he's not either. This is shown in Our Mrs. Reynold's in how he completely overlooks a more likely explanation for Inara being drugged in favour of her kissing Saffron. The other possibility probably doesn't even occur to him, and if it did, he must have dismissed it as completely ludicrous.

Shindig really brings this out, if you know where to look for it. As does, I think, Heart of Gold, in Mal's reasons for sleeping with Nandi when both of them recognize his feelings for Inara.


I agree with this. :) (Not sure about the HoG thing, as I'm particularly particular about that eppy, but the rest, yes.)

Which is really why I think Mal IS capable of accepting her job, much more easily than the fandom is ready to accept. I don't think it wouldn't be a problem at all, it is something he has to admit to himself, but I think it's very possible and it would be healthy, in a way, for him to do so.

I like M4P's take on his own self-depreciation there, as she wrote it in "Easy Tickets". Zoe advising Mal to get over his fear of not being good enough. I think part of him is afraid of discovering that he is, indeed, incapable of being happy if he gives it a try. There's as much emotional cowardice in his pushing Inara away as is in Inara's "running away", if not more.

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.

But it's very hard to talk about Inara WITHOUT talking about Mal and her tricky relationship with him.

Thankfully, I think that's more of a shipper thing than that one feminism violating rule, you know, where supposedly women can't have a conversation without talking about men?


Totally guilty here.

In my defense, it is kinda hard to follow up on GillianRose's long post up there. Kinda says it all. And eloquently, too.


Inara's profession is a brilliant choice on Joss's part, in that it poses so many questions about things we are so used to questioning that we forget our own prejudices. Wealth, sexuality, solitude.

At the same time, all these questions are also sincerely undermined by immediately connecting Inara to Mal and Mal's Opinions(tm) without having the opportunity to see more of her perspective. It's all immediately muddled by a very visceral conflict without allowing her to shine independently, establish herself as solid and whole.

This vastly amplifies people's gut reaction to see Inara's job as a negative obstacle. In a way, I think they judge her rejection of romantic love much more harshly than they judge the sexual aspect of her job.

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 9:26 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
Was I? I think you mistook me. Why back at the top of the thread I said a lot about Inara, which you applied to the M/I relationship. You misunderstood my meaning, so I clarified. It wasn't meant to be any kind of thread-wide rule.

I don't think that having a feminist discussion means that men and relationships can't enter the conversation. Of course they can, and should! But I would like to be able to discuss Inara's personality without having my own statements boiled down to: "Of course - it's all about making HIM jealous". That completely missed the point I was trying to make!

I do understand what you mean about it being hard to talk about Inara without bringing up Mal. I used to feel like that - in fact, I never really talked about Inara. I'd only get to her after starting with a Mal discussion. But in the past year or so I've become more interested in Inara as an individual, and more than half of a relationship. She's really quite complex and hard to figure. So I guess I am not so into talking Mal at this point, but it's not out of any kind of feminist rule (as if there is such a thing!) It's more about focusing on a single character without being distracted.


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 12:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's funny, Mal4Prez was very careful with this thread to try to limit it to a conversation on Inara's profession and the sex part of it.
Was I? I think you mistook me. Why back at the top of the thread I said a lot about Inara, which you applied to the M/I relationship. You misunderstood my meaning, so I clarified. It wasn't meant to be any kind of thread-wide rule.

I don't think that having a feminist discussion means that men and relationships can't enter the conversation. Of course they can, and should! But I would like to be able to discuss Inara's personality without having my own statements boiled down to: "Of course - it's all about making HIM jealous". That completely missed the point I was trying to make!

I do understand what you mean about it being hard to talk about Inara without bringing up Mal. I used to feel like that - in fact, I never really talked about Inara. I'd only get to her after starting with a Mal discussion. But in the past year or so I've become more interested in Inara as an individual, and more than half of a relationship. She's really quite complex and hard to figure. So I guess I am not so into talking Mal at this point, but it's not out of any kind of feminist rule (as if there is such a thing!) It's more about focusing on a single character without being distracted.


That, um, wasn't really what I was saying either. I don't think Inara is trying to make Mal jealous, in fact her life would be a lot easier if he WASN'T jealous.

I was saying that the jealousy is a fun consequence of their relationship, and I think it's partially what keeps us fans hooked.

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Monday, June 22, 2009 12:10 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way


No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.

Quote:
But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love.


It doesn't ruin it, but it does diminish and taint it, in some people's eyes - even if less so than straightforward adultery, and perhaps more so than ordinary prostitution (where the intimacy may be just on a physical level).

Quote:
he can work on wrapping his head around what Inara's work really is and tolerating her doing it.


He could learn to respect the companion profession but still not be happy for his partner to be one, that's not the same.

Quote:
You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.


It depends on the typical Alliance planet man I guess. Maybe the majority wouldn't mind at all a partner being a practicing companion - is that a 'higher' mindset in your view?

Heads should roll

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Monday, June 22, 2009 12:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Not necessarily a higher mindset, but more simply a practicality of the profession.

French courtesans often had a husband and children on the side while servicing their patrons. Their prostitution was a necessary source of income, and the family of the courtesan had to be understanding, tolerant, and flexible in order to make the situation work.

Perhaps this is an entirely different range of problem in your view, but I think the above applies to a number of problems that might be encountered in any relationship.

Lastly, prostitution might diminish the "quality" of the relationship in the eyes of others, but so long as the partners in question don't see their relationship as diminished, does it really matter?

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Monday, June 22, 2009 1:24 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
but so long as the partners in question don't see their relationship as diminished, does it really matter?


No, but if one of the persons within the relationship does see it that way, can he change that? You are carving up and modifying Mal's soul if you change his straightforward, uncomplicated and possessive way of being in love. A beautiful aspect of his soul, no less.

Quote:
French courtesans often had a husband and children on the side while servicing their patrons. Their prostitution was a necessary source of income, and the family of the courtesan had to be understanding, tolerant, and flexible in order to make the situation work.


Inara isn't doing it to suppport a family, it's more voluntary in her situation, like a lifestyle choice. If it was necessary though, to feed starving children or whatever, perhaps we should expect Mal to assent to it - but never to be happy about it. People can be too enlightened.

Heads should roll

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Monday, June 22, 2009 1:38 PM

BYTEMITE


Why does it have to change Mal's perspective at all?

I'm sure plenty of couples disapprove of the occupation of their partner, and there may even be hurt feelings about it, but that doesn't necessarily prevent them from staying together. Or make them care about the other any less.

If Inara were to stay on Serenity I assume she would want to have a job where she could contribute to Serenity's income, because they aren't exactly a rich bunch. This would likely be in the form of Inara insisting on continuing to pay rent. If Inara has a job, and stays on Serenity, I would assume she is doing whatever job that might be to help support the crew/her family.

As such, if she stays on Serenity and begins a relationship, but she still is a companion, I would guess the money she makes as a companion would contribute to the income of the crew. And therefore, she would continue practicing as a companion to support her family.

Unless we decide to make Inara completely out of character, and she keeps all of her money selfishly to herself.

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Monday, June 22, 2009 1:53 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I would write it that Inara has some money saved up, say 6 months rent or something - and she insists on paying it even though Mal tries to stop her. But basically there is long enough for another career path to present itself.

This is me writing to make things smooth and agreeable and happy, Joss no doubt had other happenstances in mind.

"Why does it have to change Mal's perspective at all?"

I don't think we can, or should. But how much does it poison the relationship if Inara keeps companioning? I don't think Mal could take it, and consequently I don't think Inara could do it.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:36 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
And you can't tell me that a military job doesn't cut into a relationship the same way


No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.


For those who can deal with it, it doesn't. For those who can't, it certainly does. It's, as you say, "some people's eyes", that make all the difference. Individual circumstances.

Quote:

Quote:
But neither does Inara's job break monogamy in all the important ways, nor does a a bit of bending of the rules ruin the whole concept or committment and love.


It doesn't ruin it, but it does diminish and taint it, in some people's eyes - even if less so than straightforward adultery, and perhaps more so than ordinary prostitution (where the intimacy may be just on a physical level).


But the intimacy is just on a physical level. Inara hardly bares her soul to her clients.

No one is asking Mal to grin and bear it if he can't, but you seem to be arguing against him even trying to consider it, because "some people" may see things a certain way.

What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.

Quote:

Quote:
he can work on wrapping his head around what Inara's work really is and tolerating her doing it.


He could learn to respect the companion profession but still not be happy for his partner to be one, that's not the same.


I doubt Inara is extremely happy about Mal's profession, either, you know?


Quote:

Quote:
You know, Companions might have families next to their job, so that one doesn't count.


It depends on the typical Alliance planet man I guess. Maybe the majority wouldn't mind at all a partner being a practicing companion - is that a 'higher' mindset in your view?


It's not about "higher mindsets", I'm not trying to set up universal rules and standards. It's about individual people dealing with extraordinary circumstances in a way that breaches "normal" expectations. I doubt it'd be a rule in the Core, either.

The thing is, Mal and Inara are both people with extraordinary jobs and lives, and in order to be a couple and share the love they have for each other, they have to accept each other, problematic as they both may be. If Inara wants to be with Mal, she has to deal with his dangerous jobs, his occasional awful temper, the general instability and poverty of his life. If Mal wants to be with Inara, he has to deal with her sarcasm, her differing political background and her job. They are both proud people who don't respond well to pressure, so demanding change from either one of them would probably not end well. It's a much less damaging strategy for both of them to try and change themselves and accept each other, than it is to insist on their own way.

And I think they are both smart enough to know that.

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:08 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
No, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Absence, even death doesn't taint or diminish the love in a relationship, whereas in some people's eyes removing monogamy from it does.
I may be just repeating what Bytemite and AR said, but the "some people's eyes" is key here. In some people's eyes, military is indeed a deal breaker. My nephew decided to join the army last year and his fiance didn't go for that. They broke up. OK, there was more to it, but that's what did them in. And yet, plenty of military spouses are fine with their lives. It all depends on the people involved.

So the issue here isn't in "some people's" eyes, it's in Mal's and Inara's eyes. The hard thing is to sort these characters out without tainting them with our own biases. It's a very hard thing. Impossible, probably. But I'm guessing that if we start saying they'll do *this* or *that* because it's the obvious thing that most people would do, we're probably straying from canon and into our own inclinations and beliefs.

So, based on canon, do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?

(BTW I forgot to say - Bytemite, excellent fics you referenced. I especially liked the first.)

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Originally, I was only going to post the first one, because I think it's the best too.

But I realized that just as much as making unbelievable compromises for the sake of writing a ship can lobotomize a character, sometimes characters can be lobotomized by getting their way, too. Inara continuing on blissfully unaware of, unconcerned about, or unsympathetic to Mal's hurt over her profession is as out of character as Inara tossing away her lifestyle because it doesn't mean anything to her or she secretly doesn't like it.

And the second one I think shows an Inara who wants her life and is entirely justified in not wanting to give it up, but who is torn because she does care about Mal and knows how miserable it makes him. The second story is a good example of Inara not being lobotomized, just like the first story is a good example of Mal not being lobotomized.

Quote:
So, based on canon, do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?


AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession, before she pushed him away again.

Mal's been noted to have intimacy issues. It was by Wash, and Wash was pretty mad at him, but I think that does ring true a bit. If Inara hadn't been a companion, but still elegant and classy, and if, in the beginning, she had been just as scintillating, and less discouraging, would Mal have gone for her then? I don't think so.

I think, after the war he probably holds himself back and puts up walls that so far only his crew had gotten through. I think he would have distrusted the way she seemed attracted to him, much like I think he'd distrust the attraction if she ever showed him any interest in the canon universe.

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:44 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
So the issue here isn't in "some people's" eyes, it's in Mal's and Inara's eyes.

When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature.

A military career undoubtedly can put an external strain on a relationship, but it doesn't cut to the heart of the relationship itself like sex with other people, and how that would shatter the sense of personal, private intimacy that a monogamistic person feels. A military career demands sacrifice from the partner but leaves love intact, a companion career for a monogamistic partner means a tainting/tarnishing of the love he feels. But I better stop hammering away on this issue, I won't fight the whole military comparison anymore.

Quote:
do we think Mal could accept Inara and her job? Do we think he would at least make the effort, even if he failed in the end? Is it the sex that hangs him up, or the emotional intimacy, or something else?


You're hinting at male pride, or something...? For sure, that's likely to be a factor, especially with Jayne on board the ship, poor Mal. But strip all that away and it would still hurt him, Inara companioning with other men. What do you mean make the effort? That second fic is perhaps the best case scenario in terms of Mal being a gentleman about things, but it's only going to end in bitter regret - since the relationship is doomed anyway Inara is best just to end it beforehand. Mal being a gentleman and Inara letting him means they both get poisoned with bitterness, resentment, regret.

I think the best Mal can do is acknowledge the sacrifice, if Inara is prepared to make it. Undoubtedly it's Mal's hang up, and Inara's sacrifice. But it's not an unreasonable hang up, Mal doesn't need to 'grow' or be enlightened in any way, and we shouldn't want to lobotomise him or change him into a more modern and 'open-minded' alliance planet guy.

AR,

Quote:
What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.


Fair point, there is opportunity for resentment there - it depends on how Mal acts, whether he appreciates the sacrifice; and circumstance - whether Inara is able to find another calling in life that will compensate her lost one. I think if I were to write a fic on this I would consider one set at some point in the future where Mal and the firefly crew have enjoyed good times financially and it becomes time to start thinking about settling down into a more peaceful and stable way of life. Mal would be reluctant to give up his life on Serenity but he realises he now probably owes it to Inara and the kids, after she made the sacrifice before.



Heads should roll

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:55 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession,


Are you sure? I thought he was just being 'truthsome' and putting it all out in the open.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:00 PM

BYTEMITE


The way it was acted, Inara seems to interrupt Mal. I do think the suggestion Joss makes in his directing is that Mal was about to say more. What else would he have to be truthsome about but his feelings, considering the subject of their conversation? I think at that point he was about to make a commitment to be with her despite her profession.


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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:21 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Well all right, perhaps - but I think it would be a fateful mistake if she went with it!

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 7:48 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I think the best Mal can do is acknowledge the sacrifice, if Inara is prepared to make it. Undoubtedly it's Mal's hang up, and Inara's sacrifice.


Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted. I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.

Quote:
But it's not an unreasonable hang up, Mal doesn't need to 'grow' or be enlightened in any way, and we shouldn't want to lobotomise him or change him into a more modern and 'open-minded' alliance planet guy.


I guess that's where we part ways, as well. I think Mal has some sincere growing to do. He's far from perfect, domineering and deeply emotionally insecure. The entire way he is acting with Inara is deeply juvenile (she is, too.), which is cute to watch but not exactly healthy for either of them. Mal opening himself up to for once take a step down and try to adjust to someone else, as opposed to "My ship, my rules!" and being confrontational with every other person on the planet... well, it would be growth toward greater maturity.

And where do you get this idea from that Mal accepting Inara is supposed to be the icon of modernism and equals Alliance? Who here declared that most Alliance men would be fine with this? No one. It's, and I've said this before, not about conforming to some standard, it's about an individual solution for both of them.

In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman? Because you can understand Mal's side of things but not understand Inara's? Is it that easy for you?

Quote:

AR,

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What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.

Fair point, there is opportunity for resentment there - it depends on how Mal acts, whether he appreciates the sacrifice; and circumstance - whether Inara is able to find another calling in life that will compensate her lost one.


You always describe Inara's feelings about her job as replacable. Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility, yet you talk about finding a new "calling" as though it were that easy. it diminishes the sacrifice you're asking of her, indeed.

Quote:

I think if I were to write a fic on this I would consider one set at some point in the future where Mal and the firefly crew have enjoyed good times financially and it becomes time to start thinking about settling down into a more peaceful and stable way of life. Mal would be reluctant to give up his life on Serenity but he realises he now probably owes it to Inara and the kids, after she made the sacrifice before.


Big sacrifice, if money and advancing age and CHILDREN make it almost a necessity. Besides, we don't know if Inara wants to settle down somewhere, or where. A nice little farm, where she would be just as out of place as she would be jobless on Serenity? Where's the benefit for Inara? I don't see one. Seems like a pointless non-sacrifice if it doesn't consider what Inara would want out of life. How about she gets to do her job while he gets to do his and when they settle down, they both give up their former lives?

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:20 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Originally, I was only going to post the first one, because I think it's the best too.
Oh, I think the second fic had good plottiness, it just had more melodrama which I liked less. The simplicity and brevity of the Mal POV fic was quite nice. (Says the author of a gazillion word fic that still hasn't gotten to the damned point LOL!)


Quote:
AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession, before she pushed him away again.
Whoa - complete with profession? Says who? Sure enough, he was about to say he felt something for her, but there's nothing to suggest he meant to offer full acceptance of her job. Could well be that his message would have been: Dammit, I don't like what you do and can't see how anything could really work between us, but I got these feelings and I'm all moody and just can't keep quiet anymore...

I'm not saying that was his intent, only that you're making a big assumption. He was ready to own up to being attracted to her, profession and all, but that doesn't mean full acceptance.


KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."

And I'm asking why you see him that way. As Bytemite points out, Mal clearly has problems with intimacy. There's plenty in the show to back that up. But intimacy and sex are not the same thing.

So what are his problems with sex? Does he really have problems with it? What I was hinting at wasn't male pride, I was trying to get at the root of this idea that Mal believes in strict monogamy and puts almost puritanical limits on sex. What proof of this is there in the show?

I would argue that it's pretty much the opposite - he's accepting of sex, even as a business trade. His "whore" name-calling of Inara seems a defense mechanism to piss her off and keep her at a distance, because when she's not around he's quite respectful of her. He's also pretty friendly with other whores, has no problem with Kaylee's method of joining the crew, doesn't try to control Jayne, doesn't even warn Simon off of Kaylee when he finds them all cuddled up and hungover. Mal has sex with Nandi and would have done it with Saffron too. In fact, his hang up with Saffron was based in his belief that she wasn't empowered and aware of what she was doing. It had nothing to do with a fear that sex belonged only in monogamous marriage.

So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.


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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:09 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.



Just pointing out here that I'm not in 100% agreement with M4P.

While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed. He's quite passive about sex, and not at all light-hearted. To be honest, I'm still not sure whether he would have really gone through with sleeping with Saffron. I'm on the fence about it. Either way, he's more on the old-fashioned, traditional side than, say, Wash.

I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.


However, I absolutely do see where KPO is coming from in terms of Mal struggling with a traditional definition of monogamy in relation to Inara's job. Where I disagree with him is Mal's ability to overcome it through really reflecting on what Inara's job entails - and what not - and letting go of some of his own expectations, just like Inara would.




In terms of the HoG aborted declaration.. open to some interpretation, sure. But a speech starting with "I'm not looking for anything from you. I'm just just feeling kind of truthsome right now. Life is too short for ifs and maybes." - would that lead to "I like you. But your jobs means we can never be together. Just wanted to let you know"? Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?

Throwing it out there with an in-built caveat would just lead to more confusion, ifs and maybes and pain. I don't see him going for such a monumental step, at such a painful time, unless he was truly open to Inara-as-she-is. Maybe not with a plan for the future, but open to her and open to whatever this declaration might bring for them.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:38 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed.
I don't mean to say that he's all into casual sex and multiple partnerships or something. Swinger Mal - NOT! But I think his own shyness about sex is due in some part to his emotional limits, and not just adherence to the "traditional ways".

So I think it's an oversimplification to suppose that if Inara would only stop sleeping around they'd be hunky dory. OK, no one on this thread is being that extreme, but I think the idea is out there. There is a tendency to put SEX SEX SEX first when maybe the physical act is a minor part of what these two would need to sort out.

Of course, that's my own bias showing - I think Americans are so puritanically repressed that we put sex before every damned thing! (You can beat me up and take my paycheck, but as long as you don't sleep around I know you love me...)


Quote:
I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.
LOL! Exactly what I mean in many fewer words!


Quote:
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.

Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.

In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)



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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:04 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.

Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.

In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)


I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak). He feels a lot of guilt about failing Nandi (and Inara) and he has to be aware of the fact that declaring his feelings with the same old "but your job is a problem" issue attached that he's been throwing at her since they met.. well, it would maybe unburden him but do nothing BUT burden Inara. In fact, it would hardly be a revelation at all, since there have been hints from him in the past, and he likely suspects that Inara knows about his attraction to her. So I see no sense in his declaring anything unless it is to actually say something new.

At that moment, Mal is about as vulnerable, open and uncombative as we have ever seen him. Clinging to Serenity with his hands, deeply nervous, but brave at the same time.

I cannot for the life of me imagine his planned words there to be so short-sighted that he would be attempting to burden her with his feelings+rejection, rather than attempting to give her something, burden-free.

I am NOT saying Mal was about to say "Yay, go sleep with people, I'll keep your bed warm! Happy end!"

I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are. Their complications are readily apparent, he doesn't need to make a speech about them. I think it makes more sense that Mal was trying to say something that was uncomplicated.

Hell, at this point, I doubt Mal has the capacity to imagine a stable, long-term relationship between them. I think if given the opportunity at that moment, he would have accepted an offer of intimacy (emotional and physical) from Inara unconditionally, without thoughts of the future. Accepting her as she is.


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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:07 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.


Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do. What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them. I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.

Quote:
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.


Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.

Quote:
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?


Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but of course, is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).

Quote:
Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility


Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature in my view.

Mal4prez,

Quote:
KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."

And I'm asking why you see him that way.


Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.

I'm not arguing that Mal is moralistic, I agree that he's not hung up about sex. But your partner having sex with other people is another matter. Emotional intimacy issues? Probably, but do we need special psychology to explain why a person isn't happy for their partner to sleep with other people? I don't know, as I say I think some people can be too enlightened.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:45 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.


Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do.


Or rather, is willing to do, which is really the point. You say Mal would be unwilling to even attempt to change his position - and that he would be right to. I disagree and say this is a closed-minded view born out of the tradition that women are the ones to do the sacrificing for a relationship. I say this because you consistently rate Inara's expected sacrifice as lesser than Mal's.

Quote:
What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them.


I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.

They don't add anything valuable to the discussion at all, in my mind, other than to provide an example for a writer projecting their own negative feelings onto the character - which would be especially in keeping with M4P's original points about sanitizing Inara.

Quote:

I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.


I'm declaring that it's not an impossible one for Mal, actually.

Quote:

Quote:
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.


Don't get me wrong, Mal's 'hang up' but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.


"Typical" I can buy, but natural? Mal is a product of his upbringing, and so many of the things we do socially subvert some of our "natural" tendencies, such as controlling violent impulses, respecting property, etc.

Do you think people who live in multiple partner relationships are "unnatural"?

I keep getting the feeling that you aren't just arguing out of Mal's character but out of your personal values. Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?


Quote:

Quote:
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?


Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).


Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?

Quote:

Quote:
Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility


Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature, in my view.


So Mal not accepting Inara is good because it is "natural"? All love is natural. How we treat each other is generally cultural, though, be that Mal's expectations or Inara's. There is nothing more natural in Mal's wish for absolut monogamy than would be in another person's for multiple-partner love.

So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love. It is no more impossible than to ask Inara to give up her life's work and beloved profession - I say, it is less damaging for them both, even, because Inara would have to change her entire life, whereas Mal would have to adjust to accepting one thing that has been there all along.


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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:28 AM

PLATONIST


This is all very fascinating, but I think the Guild may frown on Companions having emotional entanglements, i.e., lovers, spouses, etc, because of the complications that may arise, which everyone has stated so eloquently here. Click on her labor contract,

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=38162

They are both aware that in order to be together she would have to retire her contract. Maybe she was training that army of new recruits to take her place;) because she was losing her professional objectivity, see Better Days for that.

And that’s possibly why Mal says “I’m not looking for anything from you”, because he’s not willing to break the contract they have.

As much as he hates her job, he respects her enough to let it be her decision, independent woman and all, and that’s why he lets her leave, not wanting to ruin her career that she doesn’t seem all that concerned about because she wants to be invited to stay.

I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:56 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak).
Wow, I'm a little surprised you're saying this! Am I interpreting your meaning wrong?

Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?

Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.

Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words. Guess I should have been clearer about that! I think his reservations would have been there and showed in his implied meaning, ie the "I'm not asking for anything from you" line. But I don't think he would have brought her job up specifically. He's not that callous, and he's smart enough to know that'd just lead to a fight. He certainly wasn't out for a fight.

Quote:
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.
To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.

I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more ) for some in-the-moment comfort and deal with the complications later, even if "dealing with the complications" meant that the relationship would crash and burn. Which is what I mean when I say that declaring his feelings did not at all mean full acceptance of her profession. That issue would still have been out there, to be dealt with when they could no longer ignore it.


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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:33 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.
Yeppers. Methinks some bias is showing. Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_beh
avior)

Seriously, I don't disagree with your point completely, but I'd be much more convinced if you argued with actual behavior of Mal's, rather than saying it's in "some people's eyes" or "natural" or "typical". Goodness - why in the world would Mal limit his behavior to that which is "typical"? I haven't seen any of that in his character!

Quote:
Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.

Anyway, I never said that being in a sexually open relationship is any way mature. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, it's about Mal's particular situation. He's made tough choices before. He'll plug his nose and work with evil gangsters or even the Alliance when it's the most productive thing to do. Clearly, he's open to acting against what he'd like best. So, given a choice between a life with a woman he loves and a continued existence alone, he might be willing to make sacrifices. Not because it's natural, but because life and love are imperfect and he knows it.


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