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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm, perhaps, but I think in the future, preachers are still performing marriages as much as county/moon magistrates. If that is so, and we can also view a priestess of the guild as a priestess as we define it today, as having some religious authority...

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Well, it seems to me like the guild might want to make sure that some of it's men and women are legally certified to perform the guild version of certain rituals or ceremonies. Prevent charlatans from posing as guild members and damaging the guild image or using the guild image to hurt people, you know?

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I meant the whorehouse, actually. Nandi as the good caring head of household, the whores as the settler family. Nandi had to fight that time, I imagine on the Rim that yes, you do have to know how to fight, but like I said I don't think they were always in a drawn-gun standoff with Rance Burgess every day, or even every month.

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Like I was saying, I guess I can't see how someone can feel good about a personal milestone if someone they know and care about dies in the process. And if the person in question would undoubtedly feel responsible for the death.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

Haven't you ever had an experience that you grew from, even though you'd never ever want to go through it again? Doesn't mean that you wanted it and you're glad it happened. Just means that you can see how it made you stronger. Good lord, if we only had growing experiences because we chose them, we'd all be emotional 12 year olds for our entire lives!

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Ah - makes sense! But here I have to wonder, as much as I'm into women's freedom to choose their careers, would all these women choose to be whores if they had a nice green ranch they could be working at?

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I don't know where you get this notion that Mal has to feel good about it. Again - no one is saying that!

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

OK, so in the series, we do get signs a’plenty that Mal is a good man inside. But this is at constant war with the bitterness and anger and even apathy he carries from the war. This is what I see him starting to shed in the movie – the stuff the war gave him. He wasn’t just defeated by the Alliance, he was betrayed by those he put faith in: the Independents and God. And so he was set against getting involved in anything like that again. Just wanted to stay on his ship and do his own business.

He tried to keep on with staying hidden in the movie, but outside events and his own inner heroic nature wouldn’t allow it. The fact that he had no choice but to make a big move is exactly my point – he’d have never made such a stand if he’d had a choice, but these horrible events drove him past the blocks the war had given him.

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He didn’t enjoy it, he’ll never be happy about what happened, but afterward, somewhere in his brain, he knows it’s possible to do something besides live day-to-day.

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BTW, the whole point of all this, way back up the thread, was to illustrate to Bytemite that the kind of storytelling I like will have Mal continue to grow and change as outside influences in the `verse force him to. Ditto with Inara. To me, it’s not about him leaving the ship or not. It’s about what motivates him to do either one, and the journey he takes to get to the decision.

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Someone as messed up as Mal surely isn’t going to get better in one fell swoop. It’s going to take many many steps to get him there. So I think it’s a bit silly to allow for only two extremes as outcomes of the Miranda business: either he’s all better, or not changed at all. There is middle ground, you now!

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
AR: I know this’ll be an annoying long post. I’ll try to be concise!

OK, so in the series, we do get signs a’plenty that Mal is a good man inside. But this is at constant war with the bitterness and anger and even apathy he carries from the war. This is what I see him starting to shed in the movie – the stuff the war gave him. He wasn’t just defeated by the Alliance, he was betrayed by those he put faith in: the Independents and God. And so he was set against getting involved in anything like that again. Just wanted to stay on his ship and do his own business.

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He tried to keep on with staying hidden in the movie, but outside events and his own inner heroic nature wouldn’t allow it. The fact that he had no choice but to make a big move is exactly my point – he’d have never made such a stand if he’d had a choice, but these horrible events drove him past the blocks the war had given him. He didn’t enjoy it, he’ll never be happy about what happened, but afterward, somewhere in his brain, he knows it’s possible to do something besides live day-to-day.

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But he’s made a step toward being able to say – I want *this* – and going for it. Whatever *this* is. Again, as Book says: it’s not what you believe, it’s that you believe it. Commit to it. Go for it. Mal had lost the ability to do that, but maybe now he can make progress toward getting his own will and sense of direction back.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I have to point out here that not all bad experiences make us stronger. Some we just overcome to retake a place that we occupied before, some just make us weaker, some just make us different.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
That doesn't make sense to me. Mal doesn't run away from choices in general, as I pointed out before, he already takes on causes outside of his day-to-day.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
And then there's that speech he gave the crew after Miranda. There was no: we're gonna die anyway, so let's die getting those bastards back! The message he gave his crew was: there's something right that needs to be done, and I'm gonna do it. He was doing something right, not doing something vengeful.

I don't see fatalistic in any part of his speech. I see a cause found, a belief formed. Joss put all that in the script. Pretty clearly, I think.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Beer brewing! We're running moonshine on these here boards! :D

Back in college, there was a point when I could have taken a brewing class, but they required everyone to be twenty one.

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I also think maybe I know what that belief might be. Love keeps her in the air. I think that may be foreshadowing. Does this reflect on the upcoming leaked Inara story twist?

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
And then there's that speech he gave the crew after Miranda. There was no: we're gonna die anyway, so let's die getting those bastards back! The message he gave his crew was: there's something right that needs to be done, and I'm gonna do it. He was doing something right, not doing something vengeful.

I don't see fatalistic in any part of his speech. I see a cause found, a belief formed. Joss put all that in the script. Pretty clearly, I think.

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I don't disagree with that. Out of the two choices (running and likely dying vs. being heroes and likely dying) he picks the latter because he believes in that particular cause.

Doesn't mean that I feel he regains any meaningful sense of belief for anything else, though.

We seem to be pretty set on disagreeing about this.

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Originally posted by KiMbEr:
If Mal gave up his ship, I would think he'd live on a ranch =) As for the guild, I think it frowns upon dating because that means less clients...but I think if Inara made her mind up, no guild would keep her from being with Mal.

Kim

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
So after digesting some of the "More about Sex and Inara" thread that Mal4Prez posted (here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=38801), I've been trying to sort through some ideas I have about Mal, Inara, and their lifestyles/careers.

I thought I'd throw some of these ideas out into the ring and see which ones survive and which ones get torn apart by tigers.

So, houses of the guild. Obviously they'll all have some things in common, like no forced prostitution and the rules on subscription fees and client payments. But do they all same policy on relationships, or might there some that might be more traditional and strict than others? And by traditional and strict, I mean geisha-like, having to retire to marry, versus the opposite end, French courtesans who could have spouses AND practice. Could individual Guild Houses have their own culture (more Christian, more Buddhist, less strict, more strict, etc.)? Could differences among Houses lead to widespread confusion over whether Companions can have relationships, as is suggested in the scene cut from War Stories?

I believe I've heard that Joss describes Companions as being like Greek Hetaerae, who upon marrying had to give up their privileged status. But it could be he was just using Hetaerae as an analogy to the privilege they enjoy.

Priestesses. What might being a Guild Priestess entail? To me, it sounds like the Priestess may put more emphasis on the spiritual and counsel side of the profession than on the money-making, and likely act as the administrators and diplomats of the guild. If Inara were to fulfill her dream of becoming a Priestess, and if a priestess has the option of not maintaining a client database, would this disenfranchise Inara as much as teaching, choosing to leave the guild, or being kicked out would?

Finally, Serenity. Both Mal and Inara love the ship, but I really think that as beneficial as the ship has been to him reconstructing himself, it's also become a destructive factor in his life. Out of Gas shows that it's a risk just flying in her, let alone the kind of jobs they have to take to keep her flying.

I've said before, that I think Mal needs to give up Serenity before he gets himself killed, and that Joss would write Mal giving up Serenity as symbolic of Mal finally healing from Serenity Valley. And, in starting a relationship with Inara, there would likely have to be some compromise in regards to career/lifestyle that both would need to make. Serenity is the biggest one I can see.

The only problem is, neat as that sounds, if Mal becomes landlocked, even if he's healed enough that he doesn't drive himself crazy with restlessness, how can this be balanced with the travel requirements of Inara's career? As a Rim-traveling companion, or even as a Guild ambassador to the Rim, she would need to travel.

That's all I can think of for now, but as things are discussed, I may come up with more.

EDIT: Another reference thread. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=37626]

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