More about sex and Inara by mal4prez

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?

Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.

Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words.

Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.

And it is exactly the kind of sensitivity I see him capable of. Which I really don't see as romantisizing or wishful thinking. I don't see Mal as magically transformed, but at that moment somewhat emotionally removed from his everyday insecurities, which do blind him to seeing what's in front of him most of the time, and which also cause him to lash out at her and others.

And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.

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I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.
To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.

I agree that at that moment, Mal is hardly thinking about the two of them in long-term scenarios. I doubt he can really imagine them. And likely the issue would have come up in the future - in more or less intense form.

But it also shows Mal's instinct is to seek a connection with her without precondition, as you describe below.

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I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more ) for some in-the-moment comfort and deal with the complications later, even if "dealing with the complications" meant that the relationship would crash and burn.

I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it. Whatever he was going to say, he was likely counting on finishing his speech and Inara replying, and more likely than not, something about her profession and his stated feelings about it would have come up. That's foreseeable even to Mal. So what would his answer have been then.. a shrug? A "No, in that case, better not"? Walk away unburdened and leave her standing there? I don't see Mal starting the conversation in that case. So he must have been open to unconditionally accept her in whatever short-term scenario this conversation might have brought, not with a sure end in sight, but with an openness to what he himself may be capable of.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:43 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?

Less fulfilled? That describes Inara losing her job, it doesn't describe Mal having to live with the woman he loves sleeping with other people - which is more like a stabbing pain to the heart!

I'm trying to highlight the difference in the nature of the sacrifices - you're just trying to equate them. They're both sacrifices all right, Inara loses a job, a way to express her personality; Mal loses his personality, or lives with bitter pain...

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Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?

Nah, none of that sounds like me. I don't believe in right and wrong, I only believe in beauty - I don't like to see beauty crushed. There is beauty in Mal's possessive feelings for Inara - you shouldn't blame him for Joss's diabolical situation-eering which gives Inara a job that stabs him in the heart; but taking away that job is obviously the only way they can be together. There's this idea that companioning is such a noble, spiritual job and that we should all be in awe of it - and Mal shouldn't see it as sex but an amazing spiritual work that Inara does for other people that actually transcends sex, and so he need not really feel jealous. Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.

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So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love.

Let me clarify: Mal's way of love is such that Inara's companioning stabs him in the heart. If Mal changes the way he feels towards Inara, such that he doesn't mind her sleeping with other men, he loses a beautiful part of his own soul. I don't know, perhaps I'm being too rigidly romantic in saying it's 'impossible', but it would be sad to see, and if Inara is as fond of Mal's character as I am, she wouldn't be able to do it. I don't think Mal wants to see Inara lobotomised either btw.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:18 PM

Gee, I get back and the thread has exploded.

Well, I think that I didn't quite mean what I said as strongly as it's been interpreted about accepting her, occupation and all. Of course Mal's still going to have a problem with it. What I meant is only that he likely was about to express he has feelings for her, and at that time that meant admitting he had feelings even WITH Inara's profession in the equation. For Mal, that isn't a minor step. Before then, he'd been pretending like those feelings weren't there (poorly) behind the disguise of despising her profession.

I think that he was hoping he could put his feelings out there, and that maybe they could figure things out once he had. I interpret his "I'm not asking you for anything" as "I'm not asking you to reciprocate my feelings."

It's not about BURDENING Inara. It's about Mal trying to figure out a solution to what he sees as a problem. That's just the way he operates. Dominant male, comin' through, don't feel bad if you get shot a couple times when ultimately you're going to win the war.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:30 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
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How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.

I don't think he was ever thinking of beginning a relationship with Nandi, so she was never a partner whom he'd have to share. You're thinking of moralism again, I'm talking about jealousy and other monogamistic feelings.

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Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals!

Well I certainly didn't say homosexuality is unnatural. I generally believe that anything that manifests widely in society is natural, like monogamy. If in addition there is evolutionary logic behind it, if it resonates with me personally as something beautiful - all the more reason to think so. But this is where I come to impasse with left wing people regularly, who seem to argue that aspects of human society are just arbitrary behaviours that have become entrenched.

But I did pose the Q early on in the discussion whether monogamistic instincts were natural, and I think AR agreed it was to an extent - I wasn't just declaring it so.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:40 PM

I don't think monogamy is natural. Most great apes live in colonies where one male has many females around him. The exception is the Bonobo... Who deal with jealousy by having sex helter-skelter to reduce tension. Jealous male? His male rival will sex him up.

I think monogamy is a social institution, invented under a false premise of having to protect women, and also for men to protect something they considered their property. Monogamy is particularly common in desert cultures, where harsh conditions means more competition within a social group, and where careful control on reproduction and offspring numbers is essential to tribal survival. In jungle cultures, relationship boundaries are quite a bit more relaxed.

Guess which climate Christianity/Judaism/Islam, and therefore most western culture stems from? Asian tribes, such as the descendants of Chinese, Japanese, Mongol, etc. are believed to have lived as nomads in arctic deserts, before drifting southward and settling in their current, more tropical climates. Likewise, the people of India seem to have come from the middle east first.

South America has the best historic and modern examples of purely jungle tribe culture.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:45 PM

You know, something else we haven't asked. How do we KNOW for SURE that Mal would ask Inara to give up her profession?

There are several times that he actually is somewhat protective of it.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:49 PM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
Wow. Good summation. I picked up on the Inara angsty melodrama in the fic and my interest waned, but I didn't think it through. I think you nailed it. I can't see Inara ever feeling dirty over being a Companion, as if being with Mal means that he would become the sole owner of rights to her body. That goes so against what we've seen of her views of sex.

Platonist: Good point re the Guild. Hadn't thought about that. But what do you mean when you say: "I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara." Color me intrigued.

I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.

Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:52 PM

MAL4PREZ

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.

So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.

He is intentionally mean to Inara sometimes, but I think that's a different kind of intentional. That ol' defense mechanism. I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself. Because the silly guy really is unaware that she feels for him at all. I think that's the basis of his distrust of her - not that she has sex with clients, but that she somehow fools them into caring for her. Mal doesn't want to be just another fool on a long list.

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And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.

Surely, you and I can see that. But just because Mal *should* take an action doesn't mean he intends to do it. Really, how often does Mal do what is best and proper? And remember - Inara sets him a'whirl, etc. She doesn't bring out his logical side.

Anyway, I don't think Mal wanted to make the admission purely to comfort Inara. Watch him in the scene - he takes the fact that Inara was upset about him sleeping with Nandi as an opening, a reason to come clean. He first asks: So you weren't glad before? Inara doesn't deny it, so he starts talking.

While he talks, he barely looks at Inara. He's not studying her face to see if his words are welcome and helpful. His focus is on the ground, his thoughts inward. Hardly the actions of a man whose sole interest is to remove burdens. Mal wants to tell the truth, and feels somewhat safe doing it because of Inara's jealousy.

He thinks he'll get a positive return, at very least an admission that she feels something too, so that even if nothing ever comes of it at least it's out there in the open and they don't have to dance around it anymore. I think that's as far as his intentions go.

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I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it.

But I don't think he was *planning* for the crash and burn. I think he was just ignoring the potential downfall and going for it when he saw a opening. That's pretty much the way he lives his life, right? Job to job. Do what's in front of you and let the future take care of itself.

And if she did bring up her profession, as he might have been expecting, he might just say: "But you feel it too? There's something between us?" and if he got a nod that'd be all he was after. He could accept her refusal and walk away. After all, he's not asking for anything from her, right? All he wants is for her to hear him. Which she refuses to do. (*sigh* Poor Mal!)

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:25 AM

KPO -

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Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.

Perhaps we'll agree to disagree here, yes. Thank you for the discussion.

Bytemite -

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I don't think monogamy is natural.

That entire post was very interesting and informative! Also, hits the nail on the head.

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I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.

Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.

But if the scenario seems out of character to me, I can disagree about using it as an illustrative example, right?

Mal4Prez -

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So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.

Saying what he did to Kaylee was certainly not meant to be nice. He underestimated how it would hit Kaylee, but he WAS certainly lashing out at her. Like he often does with Inara, as well. That he sometimes looks sorry afterwards doesn't really clear him of mean-spirited intentions beforehand.

Sleeping with Nandi was an exception, where it was indeed unintentional.

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I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself.

I don't think Mal is so dense that he doesn't realize that his slights cut Inara. Witness his indirect apology in the pilot ep. It's something he knows he does and keeps doing, not a sleep-walking accident he never registers. As with Kaylee, the depth of the impact is hidden from him by his own insecure blindness, but not the entirety of his own actions.

As for the rest of your post... I'm sure we're not actually that far apart in our opinions, but I just don't see Mal as quite so short-sighted a happy-go-lucky guy as you, who doesn't consider even a shot-term impact of his declaration. I also don't see him as quite so unprotective and unsensitive to Inara's feelings as you do. After all, they would have to live on the ship together afterwards. Yes, he's expecting something of a positive response, but I think he was expecting the two of them to actually talk about it, not put it on the table to stay there like a now-visible elephant in the room. Hardly less awkward than not talking about it. So I think at that moment Mal was at least theoretically open to trying something with Inara, not by ignoring her profession and its implications, but by being open about it.

I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:46 AM

Yeah, if you disagree with it on a characterization level, maybe that fic wasn't such a good example of non-lobotomized relationship Inara. Oh well, I tried.

Hey, here's something: How come we never really expect BOTH of them to give up their jobs? It always seems like we expect one or the other of them to sacrifice for the other, or for neither of them to compromise at all.

And yet, I'd say Mal's job is more dangerous to their relationship than Inara's, even considering Mal's misgivings towards her profession, because his job could actually get one of them killed.

It's not a healthy occupation, both in the sense of injuries and in the sense of stress, emotional impact, self-esteem impact, and exacerbation of psychological trauma. Why is it so difficult to imagine that eventually his priorities might shift?

Right now, Mal's still so bitter about the war that a job openly defying the Alliance is the only job he feels fits him anymore. Yet assuming Mal lives long enough, and actually gets to start something with Inara, it seems unreasonable to imagine that he wouldn't eventually reach the conclusion that maybe his work is too dangerous.

He's not getting any younger, after all, and in a relationship with Inara I see a big worry of Mal as being whether or not he can protect her.

I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:52 AM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.

I AGREE, I AGREE, I AGREE! 100%!

(I'm a little embarrassingly excited about this, because it's a bit of an unpopular opinion in this fandom, I feel.)

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:57 AM

That's a shame, because otherwise Mal's character just remains stagnant or declines. Personally, I'd prefer to see something uplifting about him healing.

And I just don't think, as a writer, that Joss could have resisted that metaphor. Who could? It's potent, and if he wanted a strong direction to take Mal's character arc, that would be it.

Honestly, the way I see it is that Joss was setting up for that just by MAKING the Serenity Valley/Serenity ship connection. I don't really see any other way he might have gone with that.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:03 AM

Well, I also see the other side, in terms of.. Mal being a "martyr" for the idea of freedom (abstract only). We don't really see Joss's heroes get happy ends because in a way it implies making peace with an unfair world, which some might liken to settling and complacency.

I don't see it that way, of course, but I see why some might.

That's only on a metaphorical level. Realistically speaking, I find the idea of Mal growing old on Serenity silly, and story-telling-wise, I find both the option of Geriatric Serenity or Mal dying young.. well, boring. Not even starting on "Happy end on the family ship Serenity" scenarios. I've had my discussions about those, no need to start a new one. Safe to say, Mal leaving Serenity eventually is the scenario I find most interesting.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:19 PM

MAL4PREZ

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.

I can't stop yet because I think you're not getting what I'm saying. You're over-complicating and taking this places I don't mean, and getting off the point.

Let's keep it simple: Bytemite thinks that Mal's attempt to talk honestly meant a wholesale acceptance of Inara, profession and all. That he was fully willing to start a relationship with her, right then and there, and be the lover of a working, practicing Companion.

Just confirm that this is indeed what you think, then I will know that we do indeed disagree and I'll leave it alone.

But I'll still think you're wrong. :p

Now, I just arrived in Las Vegas and I have seriously cheesy shit to go do and see. Woo-hoo!

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:05 PM

MAL4PREZ

Oh - but one more quick thing: yeah, I think Mal needs to move off Serenity.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:20 PM

...Um, actually, that wasn't what I meant to say, and I clarified...

Well, anyway. Know what else? I don't think Mal likes his job, in truth. I think he has a lot of regrets and that his job is just a projection of depression-related low self esteem.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:59 PM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
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How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.

Anyway, I never said that being in a sexually open relationship is any way mature. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, it's about Mal's particular situation. He's made tough choices before. He'll plug his nose and work with evil gangsters or even the Alliance when it's the most productive thing to do. Clearly, he's open to acting against what he'd like best. So, given a choice between a life with a woman he loves and a continued existence alone, he might be willing to make sacrifices. Not because it's natural, but because life and love are imperfect and he knows it.

Nandi was someone he'd likely never see again, not someone he was considering a relationship with. I cannot see Mal ever coming to terms with Inara's companioning. He might try, but it would fester in the back of his mind and tear him apart when she was out on the job--not unlike the way it appeared to in the show when she was off and about. When Mal goes into something he gives of himself totally, there's no half-measures. The way he fought the war, the way he defends his crew threatening to space both Simon and Jayne as punishment for endangering anyone he thinks of as under his care. He goes all the way, and I think he'd expect that of anyone he truly loved if they were in a relationship with him.

Like Badger says in the pilot, he considers himself a "man of honor in a den of thieves." He works with some dirty people, but he doesn't stoop to their level in his mind. For a 'petty crook' he's an awfully honest man. In the pilot he lets Patience keep the food bars even though she tried to kill him and was at his mercy. He gives the medicine back as well as Niska's money in "The Train Job." He doesn't claim the cattle even though it looks like the people who paid him are going to be hauled off to jail in "Safe." In "Shindig" he tells Inara one of the things he hated was "the lie of it all."

Perhaps an old joke can illustrate the way I suspect Mal sees Inara's profession: A well-heeled man walks up to a pretty girl in a bar. After introducing himself and some minor chit-chat he asks her "would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" She is taken aback, but thinks on it, how that money could change her life and answers in the affirmative. He then says "Okay, would you sleep with me for twenty dollars?" Offended, she replies "What do you think I am?" He says "We've already established that, now we're just haggling over the price." Everything in the show indicates that despite the education and training and other services provided, companioning in Mal's mind is no different than whoring. It's taking money to have sex, and no matter how much money it is, or how well protected by the guild they are, it's the same thing with a prettier bow.

On some things Mal just won't compromise, and it appears this is one of them, which I suspect is why Inara left. She knew that they were incompatible as long as she still wanted to be a companion thus it was just hurting both of them for her to stick around.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:05 PM

Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:28 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

Hey, here's something: How come we never really expect BOTH of them to give up their jobs? It always seems like we expect one or the other of them to sacrifice for the other, or for neither of them to compromise at all.

Right now, Mal's still so bitter about the war that a job openly defying the Alliance is the only job he feels fits him anymore. Yet assuming Mal lives long enough, and actually gets to start something with Inara, it seems unreasonable to imagine that he wouldn't eventually reach the conclusion that maybe his work is too dangerous.

He's not getting any younger, after all, and in a relationship with Inara I see a big worry of Mal as being whether or not he can protect her.

I see the series moving towards a point where he no longer needs Serenity. It'll be all metaphorical, too, about how he's finally come out of Serenity Valley.

I don't think Mal ever intended to openly defy the Alliance as much as to simply escape from them. When he introduces Zoe to his new ship he says something to the effect of 'it's independence, never have to live under the heel of anyone ever again. Take jobs as they come.' He wanted to hire a mechanic and maybe a cook, he didn't say 'we need a burly thug for business dealings.' Also he didn't buy a warship, but an unarmed freighter, and at no time tries to arm it. I think he really just wants to be a freighter captain, and it's just the way of life on the Rim that when you start out you need to work some questionable dealings to keep flying. The only actual heists that didn't involve simple smuggling or salvage were originated by Simon and Saffron, not Mal.

Having Mal settle down to regular runs and just be a transport wouldn't seem to me to be out of character in the slightest. I think what Mal really wanted was freedom, not revenge.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:31 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.

That could be too, though it doesn't explain why she'd continue companioning in the first place. If she has "something set aside" as per "Heart of Gold what is she doing still working if she only has a few years to live?

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:34 PM

PLATONIST

Why is Inara still working?

Health care?

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:59 PM

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Originally posted by Platonist:
Why is Inara still working?

Health care?

I can't imagine the Guild is so heartless it would cut off her health care because she wants to enjoy the remaining years of her life. I understand that's what the actress revealed at that convention recently, that Inara's secret hinted at in the scene from "Out of Gas" was that she was dying.

If it was health care why on earth would she go to the rustic rim rather than stay on her wealthy core planet with presumably top notch hospitals and crack physicians aplenty?

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:16 PM

I think there was a bit more to it than that, and am pretty much planning to explore my long convoluted theory in writing, so I can't go too deeply into it. :)

Suffice to say, I think Inara is sick, but I also think that she may have been in danger on Sihnon. I think the guild encouraged her to go, and I think she wanted to go see the verse before she died.

I think she continues to practice companioning because it's something familiar and comfortable for her, something she can fall back on if things on Serenity don't work out.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:19 PM

PLATONIST

The Guild may not know, check out the Inara discussion here, it has the spoiler alert:)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=38119#701552

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:19 PM

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.
I can't stop yet because I think you're not getting what I'm saying. You're over-complicating and taking this places I don't mean, and getting off the point.

Whoa. Deeply sorry.

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Let's keep it simple: Bytemite thinks that Mal's attempt to talk honestly meant a wholesale acceptance of Inara, profession and all. That he was fully willing to start a relationship with her, right then and there, and be the lover of a working, practicing Companion.

Just confirm that this is indeed what you think, then I will know that we do indeed disagree and I'll leave it alone.

I'm fairly certain she actually said that this is not what she meant?

It's not what I mean, in as broad strokes as you paint here, either. In a very over-simplified way, it is, though.

I certainly don't think Mal could or would have phrased it like that because he can't imagine himself in a relationship, period. Any relationship.

I think Mal was - judgment free - open to trying something with Inara. Not in the "I'm ignoring the crashing and burning outcome" scenario you described earlier, but in an actual and earnest "Let's see how I can handle this", open minded approach. Earnestly open to trying, whatever it would be. I think he was already working up to that pre-HoG.

I'm basically don't see Mal in any kind of denial at this point.

And we have already agreed to disagree about Mal's ability to accept Inara in the past, if you remember, so it's hardly going to be surprising that we're ending up back there.

Do have fun in Vegas.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. Perhaps that might have been part of why she left, but I suspect more than her job, Inara's secret is what really kept her pushing Mal away, and why she ultimately left.

That could be too, though it doesn't explain why she'd continue companioning in the first place. If she has "something set aside" as per "Heart of Gold what is she doing still working if she only has a few years to live?

Maybe she likes her work?

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:

I don't think Mal ever intended to openly defy the Alliance as much as to simply escape from them. When he introduces Zoe to his new ship he says something to the effect of 'it's independence, never have to live under the heel of anyone ever again. Take jobs as they come.' He wanted to hire a mechanic and maybe a cook, he didn't say 'we need a burly thug for business dealings.' Also he didn't buy a warship, but an unarmed freighter, and at no time tries to arm it. I think he really just wants to be a freighter captain, and it's just the way of life on the Rim that when you start out you need to work some questionable dealings to keep flying. The only actual heists that didn't involve simple smuggling or salvage were originated by Simon and Saffron, not Mal.

Having Mal settle down to regular runs and just be a transport wouldn't seem to me to be out of character in the slightest. I think what Mal really wanted was freedom, not revenge.

If that's true, why not go back to ranching, i.e. what Mal would believe a normal life?

I think because it hurts too much.

Why not get a job as a salesrep for a core corporation, or something within the bounds of Alliance law?

I think because it reminds him he lost.

I don't think it's so strong as revenge, he's a good sport all considering to that commander in Bushwhacked. But I think he can't stand any other job he might take, because they would be self-lacerating.

I don't disagree about the becoming JUST a transport, Mal would be perfectly happy, and perhaps safe, doing that. But I don't think Joss would've ended it that way. I think he would've ended Mal's story with a big change of some kind.

I see him coming full circle, really. I think when he can give up Serenity Valley and take up ranching again, he'll truly have recouped from his losses in the war.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Well, anyway. Know what else? I don't think Mal likes his job, in truth. I think he has a lot of regrets and that his job is just a projection of depression-related low self esteem.

I agree with that, as well.

At this point, Mal is stuck in this life. Criminal record, Simon and River, a family held together by unsteady jobs. He can't really change it, but I'm certain he doesn't like it. Regrets describes it well.

Not that he hates every part of it all the time. He loves Serenity. But overall, he's dissatisfied.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:
For a 'petty crook' he's an awfully honest man. In the pilot he lets Patience keep the food bars even though she tried to kill him and was at his mercy.

Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.

Quote:

He gives the medicine back as well as Niska's money in "The Train Job."

Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.

Quote:
He doesn't claim the cattle even though it looks like the people who paid him are going to be hauled off to jail in "Safe."

Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.

Quote:
In "Shindig" he tells Inara one of the things he hated was "the lie of it all."

Not getting into this one.

Quote:

On some things Mal just won't compromise, and it appears this is one of them, which I suspect is why Inara left. She knew that they were incompatible as long as she still wanted to be a companion thus it was just hurting both of them for her to stick around.

I agree that this is what Inara thinks, aside from her secret and aside from perhaps a general unwillingness to bind herself.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

If that's true, why not go back to ranching, i.e. what Mal would believe a normal life?

I think because it hurts too much.

Why not get a job as a salesrep for a core corporation, or something within the bounds of Alliance law?

I think because it reminds him he lost.

I don't think it's so strong as revenge, he's a good sport all considering to that commander in Bushwhacked. But I think he can't stand any other job he might take, because they would be self-lacerating.

I don't disagree about the becoming JUST a transport, Mal would be perfectly happy, and perhaps safe, doing that. But I don't think Joss would've ended it that way. I think he would've ended Mal's story with a big change of some kind.

I see him coming full circle, really. I think when he can give up Serenity Valley and take up ranching again, he'll truly have recouped from his losses in the war.

He wouldn't want those jobs because he'd still be under the heel of the Alliance. I took the the theme of the program to be he went to the frontier to start anew, and find some measure of independence away from the jackboots of the Alliance. "you can't take the sky from me."

I recall reading in an interview with Joss or maybe it was the commentary from the movie that when Mal responds to the Operative saying "I know how you feel about the Alliance" with "You really don't" that he really means he's come to terms with the loss and doesn't hate them but just wants to stay out of their way. Kind of like how so many defeated Confederate soldiers drifted out west after the war rather than endure the occupation of Reconstruction.

As for what Joss would have done, I'd say that it's even money he'd have killed him. :)

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:35 PM

We pretty much agree then, at least about Mal and his job choices, if not about Inara or where Mal would end up. :)

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.

Why on Earth would he do business with her ever again? He said he could understand why she shot him the first time, but the second she set to murder him and Zoe when he offered her quality goods at a reasonable price. Had he killed her they would probably built him a statue like they did Jayne in Canton, unless you know of a place where greedy, double-dealing ruthless murderers who gobble up half a moon are especially beloved. ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.

That would seem to describe Jayne, not Mal. As for Niska's money, Crow told him he could keep it, and what would happen anyway after Mal made a point of saying they were 'not thieves, but they were thieves but they weren't taking Niska's money.' Crow told him flat out it didn't matter, except in Mal's mind they were behaving honorably and not thieving.

Quote:
Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.

I don't remember this, I'll look for it the next time I watch the episode. I recall them getting bound by law for something entirely different, and then starting the gunfight to escape.

Quote:

Not getting into this one.

Huh? Is this some sort of controversy here? I can't imagine how it could be.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:26 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Gillianrose, I read your post and became inspired to write to you this response. First, I have to say, when I began reading I just could not stop.
You really poured yourself into it, much like Inara, and gave a heartfelt account of her essence.

I thought back to when I first saw the pilot when I unwrapped the DVD set, several moments come to mind: despite Mal's sometimes brutish behavior she tactfully parries his thrust (no pun intended) without so much as a moment's hesitation. Of course that spoke more to their rather volatile relationship, but nonetheless I got the impression that this woman was a force to be reckoned with.

I thought also of two very telling moments, again in the pilot, where Inara's strength and vulnerability were shown. The absolution scene with Book was great theatre and brilliant storytelling. It gave us a true hero without so much as a bullet being fired or a punch being thrown. Here is a man of the cloth, who is ordained to give comfort and promote forgiveness, being comforted and forgiven in one subtle but powerful stroke. It is a scene I will always remember. It's Mary Magdalene forgiving Jesus. It is one spiritual being reaching out to another, she eased his pain.

The other moment that speaks volumes is when, while Wash is desperately trying to distance Serenity from the pursuing Reavers, Mal is telling Inara to take her shuttle with River, Simon and Book, places his hand on her shoulder, they give each other a knowing look, and Mal "shoves" her away. Actually it was more of a nudge, but everyone knows that what they both wanted was to hold onto each other. He wanted her safe, she wanted to save him. Classic moment of truth.

But here's what I've learned of Inara in the following eps. She is a Companion, with a capital C. What that means to me is that she is a life partner. A person who gives of herself, as you rightly described, in spite of what anyone might think. She never compromises her beliefs, although, in her strength, she adapts them. She aspires to make those around her better people in spite of themselves. To me she is Mother Earth - nuturing, strong and giving all at once.

She is not just a professional Companion, Geisha, Concubine; she is the High Priestess. I agree with you that there's more to her than companionship. I could see her becoming an accomplished artist, painter, sculptor. I could see her advising heads of state (I think back to her time with the councilor in War Stories - "I'll be in my bunk"). Perhaps she could become an effective Alliance Parliament member.

She's a hero because she chose to counsel, comfort and inspire those she came in contact with. Her knowledge, wisdom and intelligence were used for the greater good, especially the crew of Serenity. Inara, like Mal, Zoe and River, professes her love from the ship. It is only fitting that at the end of the BDM she's painting the Serenity symbol on the ship. It is a blessing of sorts and, I believe, her life's work.

--------------------------------------------

Art, beauty, love, communication, connection, intimacy, excitement, mystery...what do human beings really need? What can we do without? These are some of the questions that Inara and Firefly make me think about. This is why I love her, and the 'verse Joss created.

---------------------------------------------

I dedicate this to my grandmother; a woman of extraordinary strength, wisdom and love - Tomasa, RIP.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:41 PM

I kind of have to say, thanks SGG. That is a very nice post.

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Friday, June 26, 2009 5:33 AM

GILLIANROSE

Thanks for the kind words, SGG, and for sharing your own profound thoughts.

To me she is Mother Earth - this has occured to me as well, that on some level her character is emblematic of the Earth, of all the things that Mal gave up (as referred to in the song).

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Friday, June 26, 2009 5:54 AM

PLATONIST

Shinygoodguy, a post like yours makes it worth wild coming to this site; you've put into words how many of us feel about Inara's character.
Mary Magdalena, Mother Earth, life partner, unsung hero, all of these describe her well and she could be anything or go anywhere, but Serenity is her home and where she brings her love.

For me, the most telling sign of her importance and uniqueness in the crew’s lives is how dark and unhappy they are when she is gone, in the BDM. And then when she returns and asks to stay at the end, Mal genuinely smiles for the first time and goes to rattle on about love, something I couldn’t imagine that character doing without her there.

And, If Inara really wants to be with Mal and he accepts what she offers, she’ll find away to juggle her life and make room for him, without hurting herself or him, in the process. She’s that talented.

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Friday, June 26, 2009 6:42 AM

Ooh, I like that. Maybe you're right, maybe we haven't given Inara enough credit in being able to handle situations with grace, wisdom, and compassion.

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaosium:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Which was also the smarter choice, because now he might still do business with her in the future, instead of becoming The Guy Who Killed Patience.

Why on Earth would he do business with her ever again? He said he could understand why she shot him the first time, but the second she set to murder him and Zoe when he offered her quality goods at a reasonable price. Had he killed her they would probably built him a statue like they did Jayne in Canton, unless you know of a place where greedy, double-dealing ruthless murderers who gobble up half a moon are especially beloved. ;)

Then why give her that little lesson about how he does business? Why, indeed, NOT shoot her when he has no problem kicking Crow into the engine? Fact is, whether Mal likes her or not, Patience is a powerful woman who is "just about mayor" on her little backwater moon. She buys high quality food stuffs - for all I know she's buying them for her people, men women and children, and she's ruthless to hapless outsiders, not to the people on her moon.

That Patience would be universally loathed or that people would be grateful to Mal for creating a power vaccuum is not the only possibility there, and actually a little unlikely.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Which was also the smarter choice because keeping the money would have meant being hunted down for sure. The medicine was an act of honor, yes. Mal will do the right thing if cornered. It's more often than not an easily suppressed instinct, though.

That would seem to describe Jayne, not Mal.

Nah, for Jayne it's not an instinct. Mal still has it, but he suppresses it without much trouble a lot of the time.

Quote:
As for Niska's money, Crow told him he could keep it, and what would happen anyway after Mal made a point of saying they were 'not thieves, but they were thieves but they weren't taking Niska's money.' Crow told him flat out it didn't matter, except in Mal's mind they were behaving honorably and not thieving.

...right before he kicks the unarmed, bound man into his engine. Honorable, indeed.

Crow was a loyal, vengeful fanatic who would have made hunting Mal his personal goal ("the last thing you see will be my blade") and no use to Mal's plan. The next cronie up was more than willing to impart his message and the money. He didn't give it back for honor but because he knew that stealing from Niska would be the worst possible choice. Giving back the money, no matter what Crow says, would look like at least a chance at appeasing him.

Quote:

Quote:
Which was also the smarter choice because a second later the officers want to see official papers for the cattle and shooting ensues.

I don't remember this, I'll look for it the next time I watch the episode. I recall them getting bound by law for something entirely different, and then starting the gunfight to escape.

They were bound by law for something else, but Mal just sold them smuggled cattle. Without papers. Which would have involved him in the entire mess. There was no profit in claiming that cattle and all the benefit in the world in blaming the other guys. No honor involved.

Quote:

Quote:

Not getting into this one.

Huh? Is this some sort of controversy here? I can't imagine how it could be.

There have been many, many discussions on the subject.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 7:46 PM

ELPAGAN

Hey yall,
Way earlier in the thread everyone was suggesting that Mal might dump serenity as part of a "healing circle".

What I've got to ask is- Why would he?
Its still his ship
He LOVES his ship
Its more a symbol of home, family and its the one place he can call HIS after the civil war.

His life of petty theivery and being one of those naughty men sneaking round the edge of the verse is probably rooted, in part at least, in defiance.
But to say that he is dissatisfied with "flyin" is- well- stupid
The pilot showed that he can be shot, have his crew-members shot (whom he is more protective of), be near killed by reavers, arrested by alliance moles and much more and STILL call it a good day!
He has a real smile on his face at that moment.
Cos hes "still flyin".

Simon- "thats not much"
Mal- "its enough." *contented smile*

Now, later in life, even as early as his early fourties, I could see Mal, Inara and Co laying down Serenity to rest (on the western side of a craggy red-rocked hill).
The important detail is that it'd be overlooking their new ranch :)

Makes sense. Serenity was originally found sittin in the dirt. Why not end it's days that way?
The important difference is that instead of rusting away abandoned, it'd become their house.
Its got a kitchen, bedrooms, walls and a roof.
It could be converted into the heart and hub of Mal's ranch. The seed of defiance, the one thing that represented (the) independence to Mal would become the heart of a truly "legitimate business enterprise".

It wouldnt be a perfect circle of healing.
It shouldnt be.
With a perfect circle you dont gain, learn, or discover anything. This would be post traumatic stress Mal healing, and moving on from Serenity Vally- but that doesnt mean he'd ever move on from his sense of freedom or family.
Serenity is much more a source of goodness than badness.
Have you ever imagined Mal without Serenity?
He'd self destruct.

Depending on how lucky (or unlucky) they are I could see Mal and Inaras influence and reputation fetching them some reasonable power and responsibilty on whatever planet they put down on.
Post-BDM with a weakened alliance, perhaps it could be time for the border planets to organize themselves and start wielding diplomacy properly.
The civil war was unwwinnable. Why'd it ever even happen?
As much as Mal'd likely gain the respect and loyalty of the locals pretty quick, itd be Inara who'd truly turn things upside down for the Alliance in the diplomatic arena.

Anywho, that was my response to the idea Mal would and should leave serenity. Cant honestly remember the original thread topic. Too late to stop my tangent I guess :)

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Monday, June 29, 2009 8:37 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Thanks, it is appreciated.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, June 29, 2009 9:16 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

...this has occured to me as well, that on some level her character is emblematic of the Earth, of all the things that Mal gave up (as referred to in the song).[i/]
---------------------------------------------

This has occurred to me as well, and more lately than ever before (in my advanced years I'm finally getting so wisdom, who'd of thunk it!).
And another thing that came to mind, we never got to know about Mal's life before Serenity. Was Inara his true love? (I tend to think yes). Did he have a significant other, a Mrs. Reynolds, somewhere in the verse?

Your right about the song, Inara and Serenity. Actually, as I think about it more, Inara and Serenity are one. Mal fell the moment he saw her, Serenity that is. I dare say that it was the same with Inara, although with Inara he would never admit it, not even to himself. I think that in future eps River would help the both of them in that regard. That's just the romantic in me.

I'm beginning to think that Serenity and Inara are what Mal 'gave up' in the Valley. Or rather the feeling/belief he had prior to the Alliance ships raining havoc on the Valley. In the BDM we see him smile and talk about love making her fly, it was not until now that I see what Joss was referring to when Mal asked Zoe if she would hold together. It wasn't just about Zoe or the ship. He was also referring to Inara. All the women in his life were wounded but on the mend, including Serenity. Inara was lost(but now found), River is better, Simon finally declared himself to Kaylee and Zoe lost her best friend. But somehow you get the feeling she'll be okay. (Although I picture her crying in her bunk at the sight of even one dinosaur).

Did you ever notice that Zoe rarely spoke her feelings except, of course, when it came to Wash's genius piloting skills. She was so proud. Actually, in the pilot, she told Simon he wouldn't make it to the Feds if Kaylee didn't. But that's another thread.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:29 AM

I never said that Mal didn't like flying. I said that he doesn't actually like being a criminal. Sure, it has it's fun moments, and he gets to live with his middle finger in the air at the Alliance (to borrow a great line from Mal4Prez's story), but that doesn't mean it's what he wanted to be when he was just a boy from Shadow, who went off to fight in a war. Or even after, when he was buying Serenity. His little speech about staying one step further from Alliance control doesn' say anything in it that he anticipates doing so by crime. He probably thought he could operate legitimately, and so the Alliance would just leave him alone.

The thing is. Serenity is a beautiful ship, a character all in her self with a long sad history. And she's a symbol of home in a crew where EVERYONE has lost a home. Inara, Simon, River, and Mal are obvious. Kaylee chose to leave, cheerfully, but because of hardship. I suspect Wash, Book, Jayne, and Zoe are similar stories.

But. Serenity belies her name, she's surrounded by violence and tragedy, and in that environment, healing can't really take place. Despite all that she is, she's a place, a thing, both of which can be taken away. The love that the crew has for each other, that's the real home, that's where healing is. And that's one of the things that the crew, and Mal in particular, have to realize, otherwise they'll cling to Serenity, she'll become a limitation that keeps them from leading fuller lives because they're STUCK to a bare bones hand-to-mouth place-to-place criminal existence.

It's easy to idealize Serenity. The crew makes her a good place, makes her a home. But it's a hard life, a half-life, and they'll die that way, either physically, from a gunfight or a breakdown, or spiritually, if they don't recognize it's not the ship they need but their connection to each other.

Mal would break NOW if you took Serenity away, I agree. That's because he is not HEALED, and he needs to. And it's not the ship or his lifestyle that can do that, but his crew.

Mal is a remarkable leader, and he can make the hard decisions most people would balk at. But that doesn't mean all the frustration, stress, and pressure he's under is good for him, on top of his long standing issues of bitterness and depression. He may have found some happiness and contentment with his ship, but he hasn't yet found serenity yet. He's still very much at war, with himself and the entire universe.

Serenity has helped him, I'll say that. I think there was a time after the war where he REALLY had nothing, not even anything really to live for, and Serenity and Zoe, and then the crew and Inara gave him that. But there are negatives, significant ones, that could become road blocks to Mal improving, and when he has gotten better enough, I think he'll have to leave Serenity behind him. But so long as his crew stands with him, he'll be fine.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:58 AM

Getting into this discussion a bit late, but this is such a central theme for Firefly/Serenity, and as I'm a newly-minted fanfic writer, I've been thinking about this issue a lot. Personally, I've "retired" Inara in my one and only fic because I think it's more interesting. If she were just to go back to renting the shuttle and taking clients, it would be like Miranda never happened - I'm really interested in how the BDM affected everyone, its aftermath, etc. and I think both Mal and Inara would be radically altered by what happened. Also, I do think her profession is a barrier to them getting together, and while that's interesting on the screen, in the 'verse of fanfic, I want smootchies!

I don't think anyone has pointed this out, but I find it very telling that after HoG, Inara decides to leave, and the implication is that, at least in part, her and Mal's complicated relationship is getting in the way of her work - but when she actually does leave, she doesn't work as a Companion anymore. She still is one, but at the Training House. We're not told explicity whether she is or isn't taking clients, but given they're not in the Core, the prospective client pool would be somewhat limited on the planet where the Training House is. I choose to believe she didn't take clients while she was away from Serenity, because it fits my view of the post-BDM universe. :)

I think the point about Inara's profession in relation to her relationship with Mal is that he doesn't think it's worthy of her. He thinks she has to become someone new for each client, and so the clients don't ever really know her or see her for who she is. But I do think he's a monogamous kind of guy, so the sex part of her profession will always be an issue.

Inara's reaction to Mal sleeping with Nandi is also telling - she says that not being puritanical about sex means you don't have to be embarassed after, and she means that - but she's very upset by Mal sleeping with Nandi - why? If she's the type of person who would be in an open relationship - ie continue to be a Companion, sleeping with other people, then why would Mal sleeping with Nandi upset her, given Inara and Mal are not even in a relationship? The implication is that it's ok for her to have "meaningless" sex but not for him. She was deeply hurt by his actions - one presumes she would be even more so if they were actually a couple.

In terms of giving up her profession - she doesn't have to give it up. She can continue to do what she was doing at the Training House or something similar. I've been toying with the idea of her having an apprentice - someone to rent the shuttle and be Serenity's resident Companion, while learning from Inara's vast experience. Look at real-world (ie 21st century Earth) sex workers - most stop doing actual sex work at some point, either because they decide to have a "conventional" (please don't flame me for that phrase, I just can't think of how else to say it) relationship, or for other reasons (they become madams, or go into completely other lines of work, start support organizations for sex workers, the list goes on).

GR - loved your post. Just wanted to say that.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:42 PM

Ahhh, but there's the thing. I'm not sure Inara giving up her profession would be a rational response to Miranda, because there's not really any indication that the Guild is affected by the Alliance anymore than the Guild supports the Alliance because it's good for business. Now, if she were to quit because she wants to be with Mal, post Miranda, I could see that a bit better... EXCEPT, that her just giving up her profession not only limits her independence, but also that it completely ends the conflict the two of them have over her profession, which really needs to be resolved if they're going to have a meaningful relationship. I don't think either of them can ignore her profession, even if Inara were no longer IN it, because of Mal's trust issues.

I don't think Inara's reaction to Mal sleeping with Nandi was hypocritical because I think there's more to what's going on with her than meets the eye. I think there's very real reasons she thinks she CAN'T be with Mal, and seeing him move on is a kick to the stomach, because more than ever she can't have him. I don't think it was the meaningless sex at all, but if that did play any role, it was in that Inara knows that sex means something to Mal, much more than it does for her.

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:22 PM

I'm not necessarily saying that Inara giving up her profession is a rational reaction to Miranda - I'm just saying that I think it would be detrimental to the story if she just went back to renting the shuttle, and taking clients wherever the jobs took the crew. It would be just like before she left, and I think that would do a disservice to the events of the BDM. It's not just about Inara - I think that lots about their lives would change. Would Simon and River still be fugitives? Would Jayne become any more contemplative? How would Zoe deal with being a widow? Etc.I guess I just think that it's more interesting, story-wise, for things to change after Miranda.

One reason I gravitate toward the idea of Inara retiring is a scene from the shooting script (which I think they must have rehearsed, at least, as there are still pictures from it in the Serenity Companion) where Inara follows Mal out from the Search and Rescue craft, just after seeing the recording, and tells him that she doesn't know how to do this, that she needs his help. I guess I take that to mean that her worldview is seriously threatened by what she sees on Miranda.

I didn't mean to imply that Inara was hypocritical in her reaction to Mal's sleeping with Nandi - but rather that it would be hypocritical of her to expect Mal to be fine with her going on with being a Companion, considering how upset she was about him sleeping with Nandi. I do think you're right, though, that she knows that Mal isn't cavalier about sex, and so him being with Nandi meant something. But I don't think what Inara does is about sex either - that's one of the reasons she draws a distinction between Companions and whores. She chooses her clients carefully - knowing that the sex actually does mean something.

I don't think that Inara giving up her profession would magically make all the issues she and Mal have go away. I just think that a relationship between them would be impossible unless she ceased taking clients. Mal would have to do some heavy compromising too - or growing really - to deal with his intimacy issues, etc.

I agree that they'd need to deal with her profession, even if she were to quit, but I think the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a problem with sex for money generally (he seems just fine with Nandi). He thinks Inara's too good for it. Which is the crux of the problem: he thinks she's too good for him. And I think he'll need to take her off the pedastal, or they don't stand a chance.

I like discussing this, though - it gets my brain thinking about all sorts of possibilities. Thanks for keeping it going, since I missed it the first time!

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Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:43 PM

Quote:
I agree that they'd need to deal with her profession, even if she were to quit, but I think the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a problem with sex for money generally (he seems just fine with Nandi). He thinks Inara's too good for it. Which is the crux of the problem: he thinks she's too good for him. And I think he'll need to take her off the pedastal, or they don't stand a chance.

That, I do agree with.

I guess maybe I see Inara's having sex as different from Mal having sex. In Those Left Behind, River says "You cheated" to Mal, not Inara. With Inara, she may care about her clients, but it's not the same way, so it's not cheating. Only Mal doesn't see that.

And I can't figure out a better way how the issues that Inara's profession brings up can be resolved than her continuing to be in it. It's more potent than if she stopped, Mal's problems would be both justified and not because it's not what he thinks.

And furthermore, a Mal who refuses to be with Inara because of her profession, requiring her to give it up, is an interpretation of Mal that I don't like. If Mal wants a relationship with her, he has to learn to accept her. And I also don't like an Inara who capitulates so readily.

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Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:27 AM

I don't know. I think it's completely true to Mal's character that he wouldn't be able to be with Inara (or anyone, for that matter) if she were still taking clients. Because that does mean something different to him than it does to her (or does it? She's pretty non-committal about her thoughts on having a relationship as a Companion, and I think she chooses to be a Companion rather than a more conventional life where she could have a long term relationship, because she's rather be wholly independent). Even were he to deal with all his issues about her career, apart from the her-having-sex-with-other-people thing, he still would never be okay with her having sex with clients. Regardless of the fact that it's a different kind of sex/intamacy than she would have with him. I think that's just who he is. And I don't think that's crazy or out of line on his part. I don't know a whole lot of people who would be okay with their partners having sex with other people, regardless of it being a job. There are some people who can deal with it - Mal is not one of them.

But, he knows he has no right to ask her to give it up. Which is why he never does. He says that more than once - in Shindig, he says he's got no call to stop her, in HoG he says he's not asking anything of her, etc. And I don't know about Inara "capitulating." I think she would, at some point, make a choice between the two. And it's much more fun for her to choose to be with Mal

It's a bit of a troublesome issue, because the good feminists in all of us want to believe that she shouldn't have to give up anything for the man she loves, she can still have her independence, blah-de-blah. I'm troubled by the fact that sacrifice is seen as a sell-out when a woman does it for a relationship. Okay, not going to get into a post-feminist analysis. More than I already have...

It's a beautiful set-up for a tv show, because it's a seemingly insurmountable barrier - they can't be together, but they don't want to be apart. It's a time-honoured device, and it works. I mean, here we are still talking about this relationship and where it could have gone.

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Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:06 PM

I like Mal and Inara as much as anyone, and I hope they work it out. But Inara being a fictional character, of a cast of characters I enjoy and have an emotional investment in, I would be very concerned for Inara entering a relationship with Mal and not having anything to fall back on.

If Mal hasn't worked out his issues in advance, I foresee a very tumultuous relationship, and likely a tumultuous one even AFTER he has because of the way he thinks and because he's almost as bad as Simon when it comes to putting his foot in his mouth. If Inara goes into that relationship, and it's on again off again... Let me ask you. Would YOU give up a steady long term job and a source of income for that kind of uncertainty? I think that's a good way to get left high and dry. Inara is a business woman, and rational.

And also, this continues to not address the problem that the sacrifice would not be mutual. In all fairness, if they want to start a life together, Mal should give up the job that could very likely kill them both, and Inara should give up the job that drives her prospective partner to fits of jealous rage, angsting, and misery. Because you may be right, and it won't work out with Inara in her job, but it won't work out with Mal the way he is in his job, too.

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Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:46 PM