Firefly Music Videos - Download Now by Succatash

If you were thinking that Woody just appropriated that video footage, you are mistaken. He purchased the rights to use it.

(None of what I am talking about refers to any other type of fan work besides fanvids)

I agree that if we are to continue to enjoy fanvids that we need to police ourselves. But that is one of the things we are arguing here (and I feel it's getting ridiculous), and we can't just arbitrarily give the right to make the decisions away to a few people who have decided how they would like it to be. Since this whole premise of owning your fanvid is something that it doesn't sound like anyone is going to budge on, we need to introduce new, more compelling reasons why we are right, or we need to let it die.

Here is the impasse, as I see it.

I believe that Joss has the rights to Firefly. (let's just leave Fox and Mutant enemy and whoever else out of it for some simplicity)
You all believe that you have the rights because you changed Joss's format around.

Now, if we are in the world, then no matter where we go, the laws of copyright apply. If we decide to suspend them, and make our own set of rules, as it appears you wish to do here, in this case, with this video; then the rules you make could be anything. I would rather continue to use the normal set of rules which society has set down for ordering of intellectual property.

Correct me if what I am saying is wrong, but you want to disregard Joss Whedon as the creator of Firefly (by not asking his permission), you want to have the right to chop up his creative work, and you want to be able to post it on a website whenever you want, saying that it is yours. Not only that, you want to tell other people what they can and can't do with that work. (in order to protect your theft)

Is that right?

Here's how society see's it should go down.

Ask Joss Whedon for permission. When he gives it, you can decide what to do with what he has given you. Up until that point, you can want an imaginary set of rules to run your life by as much as you want. But do not ask me to break the law any more. and do not try to include me in your law-breaking system. I will not play your games. How you can delude yourself into believing that stealing is alright, and still call yourself a fan is hard for me to understand. Just because fan is short for fanatic doesn't mean you have to follow the exact meaning of the word.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:38 AM

I'm not in the Fiefly fandom, and I only know what I've seen in this posting board.

But I can't figure out why you're still arguing.

Hey, you won! No one is going to be stealing Joss's work anymore, because no one is going to make vids anymore! All those vids with all that stolen material have been removed from their various IP's, with most of the vid creators declaring that they will NEVER put them back again.

So, hey, congratulations! No one will steal anything again, and it's all thanks to you!

Those few people who you claim are trying to make all the rules? They are the ones who made those vids, and they are the people you are relying on for more. When did the phrase, 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you' go out of style? Whether you're right or not ceased to be important a long time ago. All that's happening now is people are angry and they are pulling all the things you love so much from the 'net.

Bummer about your fandom.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:39 AM

I notice this site has all sorts of copyright material on it; screen captures, scripts, and video files. Does the site owner have permission from Mutant Enemy and Fox?

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:55 AM

TALRIUS

You know this coulda all been avoided if someone woulda showed some courtesy and just asked to use the vid. What's so hard about asking? Just a quick e-mail on how you would like to use their fanvid on your own website. In my knowledge most sites will be happy to accommodate you. And you could have linked to each other spreading the ring of fan sites and allow for future file sharing.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:58 AM

BKTHEIRREGULAR

When I brought up "Tiger Lily" and "Kung Pow", it wasn't to say that the originals were stolen - but rather to show that taking moving images and doing something new with them involves some creativity.

Now in most cases, when someone puts up fannish content, there's a disclaimer - that the original material is the property of whoever (in this case Joss and Mutant Enemy etc.) - "used without permission and not for profit" is the term I use in my fanfiction disclaimer.

(I bring it back to fanfiction because I have never made a vid for public consumption, never put a vid up on a web site for all to see.)

It's not about claiming that Joss didn't do the original work - that would be dead wrong. But it's not a bright line either - the entire concept of creative fandom exists in the shadows, and applying bright-line rules to the fandom will destroy the creative element.

Let me create a hypothetical example:

I make a vid and send it to someone (let's call them Ace) for their birthday. Ace likes this video and gives a copy to Buddy. Buddy likes it and gives it to Chump, who puts it on CD and hands it to Joss Whedon, who is having a sandwich with his lawyer.

I'll let the imagination fill in the consequences.

This is why people ask - not enforce, but ASK others not to distribute their work without their permission. It's not about enforcing their own claim on that one particular work - it's about preserving their ability to create works in the future.

And the idea of breaking off fanvids from fanfiction - a lot of legal eagles will not make that distinction.

People aren't looking to claim someone else's work as entirely their own - they are looking for a creative outlet.

And as I type, I look at posts and see that they are suffering the catastrophic consequences of sharing the fruits of their efforts.

I have a fanfiction site with Firefly works on it; do I need to yank it off line too? Will I be reported?

Seriously. I need to know.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Viv:
When did the phrase, 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you' go out of style?

I bite the hand that feeds me when that hands slaps me at the same time.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:07 PM

Sorta missed the point of what I was saying, didn't you?

Oh, well. It doesn't look like it matters anyway. Your fandom just got flushed down the toilet and you were one of the people who pushed the handle.

Boy, am I glad I didn't watch that show when a friend of mine suggested it.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:19 PM

SILVIAKUNDERA

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I agree that if we are to continue to enjoy fanvids that we need to police ourselves. But that is one of the things we are arguing here (and I feel it's getting ridiculous), and we can't just arbitrarily give the right to make the decisions away to a few people who have decided how they would like it to be. Since this whole premise of owning your fanvid is something that it doesn't sound like anyone is going to budge on, we need to introduce new, more compelling reasons why we are right, or we need to let it die.

What you seem to not understand is that songvideos have been around for OVER A DECADE.

There are lists and annual conventions dedicated to songvideos, and many fandom Cons have a special portion dedicated to vids. It has a fandom subculture of its own.

We are not speaking out of our asses here, or making up rules as we go along.

There ARE premises and policies developed in internet fandom as a whole that came about for the people and by the people long before Firefly and long before you ever heard of the idea.

Who are YOU that you can now decide these community policies do not apply to you? What makes you so special and different?

The masses HAVE spoken. Any argument you have has already been weighed and dealt with. You are many, many years too late. Now would you kindly accept a nice tall ladder and use it to get over yourself.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:25 PM

RENENET

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
...we can't just arbitrarily give the right to make the decisions away to a few people who have decided how they would like it to be. Since this whole premise of owning your fanvid is something that it doesn't sound like anyone is going to budge on, we need to introduce new, more compelling reasons why we are right, or we need to let it die.

Here is the impasse, as I see it.

I believe that Joss has the rights to Firefly. (let's just leave Fox and Mutant enemy and whoever else out of it for some simplicity)
You all believe that you have the rights because you changed Joss's format around.

Now, if we are in the world, then no matter where we go, the laws of copyright apply. If we decide to suspend them, and make our own set of rules, as it appears you wish to do here, in this case, with this video; then the rules you make could be anything. I would rather continue to use the normal set of rules which society has set down for ordering of intellectual property.

Hi, Maniac. I'm going to try to offer a "new, more compelling reason" in support of the folks who believe that vidders have rights to their vids even though the source material belongs to Joss et al. In the world we live in there is a set of rules agreed to by most countries called the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. (See http://www.wipo.int/treaties/ip/berne/index.html)

Article 2, section 3 on derivative works reads:
(3) Translations, adaptations, arrangements of music and other alterations of a literary or artistic work shall be protected as original works without prejudice to the copyright in the original work. http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs/en/wo/wo001en.htm#P83_10463

This basically means that the issue of permissions for adapting copyrighted works is quite separate from the issue of copyright protection for the derivative work produced, which itself is entitled to copyright protection.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not U.S. law, but rather an international treaty signed by the U.S. that provides governing priciples for copyright law. I am referring to it in an attempt to show you that vidders are not making up their own arbitrary rules regarding their rights to their productions. The views expressed here by Nia, Bonibaru, Elketanzer and others line up very nicely with the principles of the Berne Convention, a set of rules regarding copyright in our world.

Personally, I think the point that Silviakundera just made about longstanding community policies regarding songvideos is an even more compelling argument than quoting the Berne Convention because it emphasizes community practices and understandings. It also just happens to line up with international treaties on intellectual property.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:42 PM

BKTHEIRREGULAR

Color me impressed.

To trump international law, you've pretty much got to go to another dimension, no?

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BKtheirregular:
I have a fanfiction site with Firefly works on it; do I need to yank it off line too? Will I be reported?

Seriously. I need to know.

You should direct your question to Nia and LJC. They reported (along with other's as well, I am now beginning to suspect) to Succatash's ISP that he was hosting copyrighted material. They got him closed down. So it seems they are the ones with the real manacing intent. Worry about them.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by renenet:
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
...we can't just arbitrarily give the right to make the decisions away to a few people who have decided how they would like it to be. Since this whole premise of owning your fanvid is something that it doesn't sound like anyone is going to budge on, we need to introduce new, more compelling reasons why we are right, or we need to let it die.

Here is the impasse, as I see it.

I believe that Joss has the rights to Firefly. (let's just leave Fox and Mutant enemy and whoever else out of it for some simplicity)
You all believe that you have the rights because you changed Joss's format around.

Now, if we are in the world, then no matter where we go, the laws of copyright apply. If we decide to suspend them, and make our own set of rules, as it appears you wish to do here, in this case, with this video; then the rules you make could be anything. I would rather continue to use the normal set of rules which society has set down for ordering of intellectual property.

Hi, Maniac. I'm going to try to offer a "new, more compelling reason" in support of the folks who believe that vidders have rights to their vids even though the source material belongs to Joss et al. In the world we live in there is a set of rules agreed to by most countries called the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. (See http://www.wipo.int/treaties/ip/berne/index.html)

Article 2, section 3 on derivative works reads:
(3) Translations, adaptations, arrangements of music and other alterations of a literary or artistic work shall be protected as original works without prejudice to the copyright in the original work. http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs/en/wo/wo001en.htm#P83_10463

This basically means that the issue of permissions for adapting copyrighted works is quite separate from the issue of copyright protection for the derivative work produced, which itself is entitled to copyright protection.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not U.S. law, but rather an international treaty signed by the U.S. that provides governing priciples for copyright law. I am referring to it in an attempt to show you that vidders are not making up their own arbitrary rules regarding their rights to their productions. The views expressed here by Nia, Bonibaru, Elketanzer and others line up very nicely with the principles of the Berne Convention, a set of rules regarding copyright in our world.

Personally, I think the point that Silviakundera just made about longstanding community policies regarding songvideos is an even more compelling argument than quoting the Berne Convention because it emphasizes community practices and understandings. It also just happens to line up with international treaties on intellectual property.

I did not go to the links you provided, yet, but I do know the laws you refer to, and the artist who changes the inital art must do so to a certain degree. That degree is much larger than what is done in this instance.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:13 PM

ELKETANZER

> So it seems they are the ones with the real manacing intent. Worry about them.

Just an observation: I didn't see anyone but you threatening to try to put anyone in jail, ManiacNumberOne.

Elke

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:17 PM

BKTHEIRREGULAR

Apparently Nia's site no longer exists.

As for me?

http://www.neon-hummingbird.com/irregularities/

I'm waiting for the dust to settle.

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 2:10 PM

FFWF

I read through this entire thread hoping to find a great controversy. Instead I find 2 guys arguing against everyone in fandom, years of established precedent, and possibly even International law.

You say that Browncoats should stick together and, frankly, they are - except for you two. If there are a ton of Firefly fans coming to your defense, I don't see them.

It seems to me to be a real waste. There are a lot of vidders out there who have netiher the access or the technical ability to host their own vids who would love to find someone to host vids for them. You could have been heroes. Now, it is unlikely that any of those people will trust you with their work.

I see that someone has threatened to contact TPTB. FYI - very bad plan. This is not new ground and has actually been done at least twice that I know of - once in Blake's 7 and more recently in Due South. Both times, the studios landed very hard on the people who were complained about, the people who did the actual complaining, and everyone within a 1,000 mile radius. C&D's for everyone and lawsuits all around. I realize you were probably just trying to make a point but it is one of those things you just plain don't say. If you are in high school, you do not speculate about shooting other students or blowing up the school. If you are in fandom, you don't whine to TPTB.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 2:42 PM

KAYTHRYN

Quote:
Posted by FFWF: You say that Browncoats should stick together and, frankly, they are - except for you two. If there are a ton of Firefly fans coming to your defense, I don't see them.

Here I am! Here I am!

Okay, I told myself I would stay out of it and I’m trying.

Please let it go down that I tried to stay away… but Manic and Succatash are not alone. Well, they are alone on the Twinkie thing, and some mention of Jesus, but I stand with my browncoat brethren.

Vid creators should claim some responsibility and mark their work or password protect it, or something, anything, otherwise accept the fact that their work may be put on other sites without their knowledge. I also think that people should have the courtesy and ask before using work if they know who to ask. And that’s just what Manic did, once he found out who’s piece it was, he asked permission, and when it was denied, he removed the piece.

People, you (including myself) shouldn’t care so much. It’s between Nia and Manic, the rest of us are just blowing off steam and making trouble.

_________________________________________________

Lets talk about something happy now?

And I mean it people, I want to see happy faces!

I’ve been trying to post a new thread for a few days, but something wack because it just wont work. This started because I need some ideas for a little project I‘m working on, but it’s actually kind of funny (well because I personally picture each character singing their own song). Oh! Firefly the musical! That would have been a sight!

So, to the question-

What song would you pick as each Firefly characters theme song? It doesn’t even have to be their theme song, just one that makes you think of them. I’ll start with a few...

Kaylee to Simon- By my lover by Ultimate Dance Party.

Zoë and Wash- A woman’s got the strength by Jennifer Holiday.

Simon about River- I wouldn’t change a thing by Spin (or lighthouse, I'm not sure).

Okay, mine aren’t very good, but that’s why I’m asking you guys.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn:

Vid creators should claim some responsibility and mark their work or password protect it, or something, anything, otherwise accept the fact that their work may be put on other sites without their knowledge. I also think that people should have the courtesy and ask before using work if they know who to ask. And that’s just what Manic did, once he found out who’s piece it was, he asked permission, and when it was denied, he removed the piece.

People, you (including myself) shouldn’t care so much. It’s between Nia and Manic, the rest of us are just blowing off steam and making trouble.

Nia's vids were only posted in a friends locked LJ entry. Bonibaru's vids were clearly marked as do not distribute without permission. I have Do Not Archive plastered all over my site. Even so, someone downloaded our vids, burned them on a cd and gave them to Nathan Fillion. Had this someone not been stopped, she would have given them to Joss Whedon as well. Our work was marked, protected, and we thought, safe. When it was obvious that it wasn't, we removed it from our sites. And that's when someone who had Nia's vid decided to host it without her permission. Maniac may have taken the vid down when the request was made, but if I'm following this discussion properly, yet another person didn't. In fact, he declared vids "public domain" and REFUSED Nia's request to remove it, then tried to get her site TOSed.

And I'm sorry, but this is not between just Nia and Maniac. Everyone who has or had a Firefly vid has been affected. Everyone who wants to see a Firefly vid has been affected because the vids are gone and not coming back. Ever. And, judging by the reaction of the vidding community, there will be no more online, if at all, for fear someone will upload them. Sites are coming down because people fear (and rightly so) that someone with a grudge will try to get them TOSed. Your entire fandom has been painted in a black light. Every member of this community SHOULD care.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:59 PM

LJC

Quote:
You should direct your question to Nia and LJC. They reported (along with other's as well, I am now beginning to suspect) to Succatash's ISP that he was hosting copyrighted material.

I haven't emailed anyone's ISP.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 4:12 PM

DESLEA

Quote:
And I'm sorry, but this is not between just Nia and Maniac. Everyone who has or had a Firefly vid has been affected. Everyone who wants to see a Firefly vid has been affected because the vids are gone and not coming back. Ever. And, judging by the reaction of the vidding community, there will be no more online, if at all, for fear someone will upload them.

WORD. I'm an active vidder in other fandoms and I love Firefly, and I was planning some Firefly vids, but there's no way in hell I'm putting up them up now.

I can understand some well-meaning fan making a gaffe. Truly. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be angry, but I can understand it. What I can't understand is how these people can be so pigheaded in the face of the reaction they've received.

Let me tell you a story. I run a large tech support team for a very large website. A few weeks ago, some of us played an April Fool's joke. It was pretty elaborate, involved a couple of related websites. And some people were hurt by it. They felt that this prank had eroded their trust in myself and the other people who led them.

Do I understand why they felt that way? No. I really don't. But I still talked to my fellow managers and convinced them to release a formal apology. Because if you hurt someone with your actions, you suck it up and apologise. Otherwise, you're an asshole.

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 4:35 PM

BONIBARU

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Quote:

You should direct your question to Nia and LJC. They reported (along with other's as well, I am now beginning to suspect) to Succatash's ISP that he was hosting copyrighted material. They got him closed down. So it seems they are the ones with the real manacing intent. Worry about them.

Here's a question. Do you think that maybe Suck's website got taken down because he used too much bandwidth with everyone running there to download those vids? That can happen, you know. It happens to newbie vidders all the time until they find a webhost with enough bandwidth allotment. I use over 25G a month myself (or I did, until I removed everything).

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:18 PM

TALRIUS

Divide and Conquer, baby.

This is what the Alliance-Fox wants us to do, rip one another apart so we can no long stand against them. Soon they'll have the world brain washed on Reality TV and with us divided we cannot stand against them.

What's life if there is no conspiracy against you?

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Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:05 PM

CASTALIA

Someone above mentioned that fan vids have been around for a long time, although they underestimated just how long that has been.

Vids have been around since the *Sixties*, guys. Since the time of original Trek, Man From UNCLE, Starsky and Hutch, Professionals, and countless other fandoms, fans have spent amazing amounts of time, money, and effort in creating these works of art for fellow fans and for themselves. They started with your basic vcrs, copy-cords, and similar editing equipment, and taught themselves how to edit, how to adjust for rollback, how to create effects, how to time their cuts and action sequences to music, etc. It is only within the last decade that vids have gone digital and have been posted to the net. Maniac, Succatash - Firefly does not have the monopoly on vids, so yes, this issue *does* affect all of fandom.

The issue of distributing vids without the creator's permission is not new either, unfortunately. In the old days, the creator would try to distribute their vids on a person-to-person basis, but in fandom, yes, people want to share. So, fan #1 would dub the tape of vids for fan #2, who might then make a tape for fans 3 and 4, and then you end up with 4th generation tapes somewhere down the line that are of crappy quality and might not have the vidder's original contact info on it anymore. It happened, but at least it was still between fans. No one went and gave the tapes to TPTB, nor did they post them in a public place.

What you've done might've originally been a simple mistake, but you've subsequently proven that not only were you ignorant of the "rules", but you don't care to know, even when others have posted about the legalities, consequences, and basic expectations of courtesy involved. You decide that you're entitled to anything you find on the 'net, regardless of who it belongs to or how these things are done. When you ask where all this "tradition" has come from, you really show how little you seem to know about fandom and its origins.

Vids are indeed art. Ever try to make one? Vidders spend a great deal of their spare time making a quality product for you to enjoy, and often a great deal of money as well, on equipment, source material, and (for online vidders) webspace. They do this because they love the shows from which they vid (the *only* requirement for being a "true fan"), not because they owe it to you. You are not entitled to their work just because you are a fan. With online vids you're getting something for free; this doesn't mean you get to dictate what that something is, how it's presented, or how it's controlled. *That* is what's selfish and arrogant.

Nia, Bonibaru, and several others have tried esplaining things and have been very polite in the face of your tirades. They gave you facts; you responded with cheap insults and dodgy answers. Now you've managed to ruin a large section of fandom, possibly all of online vidding, for everyone. This doesn't just affect your precious Firefly (which I enjoyed, but your histrionics certainly won't draw me, or anyone else, into such a fandom).

Try reading Henry Jenkins' Textual Poachers for some info about old-style vidding. "Fan videos are a source of pride not only to the artists who created them but to the fandom from which they originated, standing as a tangible demonstration of the value derived from endless hours of collecting tapes and watching episodes. What the videos articulate is what the fans have in common: their shared understandings, their mutual interests, their collective fantasies."

Learn a little more about fandom before you try to dictate how it should be run, boys.

Castalia

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Sunday, April 20, 2003 7:51 PM

JOCE

Ah. Now I know why it's suddenly so difficult to find Firefly fan-works. Don't really have anything new to add -- what was already said seems to say it all. Just wanted to say that my support -- whatever it's worth -- is with the vidders. I know I couldn't do what you guys do -- I haven't got the skill. Thanks for all your hard work, and it's just sad that it had to come to this.

-- Joce :(

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Monday, April 21, 2003 7:18 AM

SUCCATASH

You people are so disgusting! Instead of using your artwork to promote Firefly, you are using Firefly to promote your artwork.

Firefly should not be exploited so self-important artists can get recognition for their illegal work.

I want the show back on the air. I want Firefly to have a larger fan base. Fan artwork is a great way to spread the Firefly word. But it's got to be shared.

You "vidders" have screwed up because you are more worried about your fame and personal glory then you are saving Firefly.

And to the assholes who complained to my web host and got my site shut down: You are the most hypocritical of all, true Browncoat traitors. Shame on all of you!

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Monday, April 21, 2003 8:40 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

That sucks

I really enjoyed those

Its too bad some people have to cause a stink when they could just leave well enough alone.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 11:46 AM

TALLGUY

You know, this whole argument is not about LEAGALITIES. It's about MANNERS.

As I understand it, someone created something (using material created by others, but that doesn't matter, it's still hard work). Someone else took it. The first person asked "Please don't do that." The second person said "Screw you. You suck. I'll do what I want."

Is that about it?

I'm working on a fun little vid set to Dire Straits' "The Bug". Pity no one's gonna see it.

Bill
Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics. You may win, but you're still retarded.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 1:06 PM

Well, here are my two cents: Anyone who creates fanfic or vids does so out of love for the show. However, once you distribute it on the internet you have lost all control over it.

If it is so important that you get recognition for you work I suggest that you incorperate your name into the work. Even Van Gogh signed his paintings.

If it is important that you remain annonymous, then don't sign it.

As far as your actions regarding shutting down his site, that was rude and uncalled for.

Your main purpose for asking him to C&D hosting your vid was because you feared getting caught making a vid. So then you turn around and hand him in to the same people you are trying to hide from. That is backstabbing plain and simple.

So in conclusion all I can assume is that NEED TO RECOGNIZED, yet FEAR to be CAUGHT. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 1:24 PM

Quote:
With online vids you're getting something for free; this doesn't mean you get to dictate what that something is, how it's presented, or how it's controlled.

Why not?

I am sure that the producers of every show would argue the same thing about fan-art in whatever form.

Do you honestly expect that because you personally have put hours into something it should be treated differently than everything else? It truely seems hypocrytical that you belive your works are entitled to special consideration when they are in fact stolen ideas. You, me, we are thieves. We break a dimond necklace and ruby broach to make a jeweled crown. Does that make the crown ours? No.

We are not entitled to complain about what other people do with it especially when all that person is doing is exhibiting and sharing your "art" with other people.

I think I should remind you of the fan-subbers motto: "For fans, by fans. If you have paid for this, you have been cheated."

There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 1:43 PM

SUCCATASH

TragicStory wrote:
"So then you turn around and hand him in to the same people you are trying to hide from. That is backstabbing plain and simple."

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:16 PM

Quote:

There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

I beg your pardon?

So...what your saying is, anyone, who does ANY type of fan art should just let anyone take it?

So all the people who do photomanips, all the artists who draw pictures for a show, all that is free for you to grab and do with what you will?

I hate to tell you this, but that is not only seriously rude, it's a good way to get blackballed from fandom. (And the artist can and will get your website taken down if you don't remove it, and I don't blame them. They DO own the copyright on their work)

Don't you get it? The reason fans have their own sets of rules for the way things go is because if you piss off the artists, fanvidders, etc. THEY DON'T MAKE MORE. They go to other fandoms who have more respect and make vids and art for them.

WAKE UP!! Due to their petty ranting and name calling, all the people who were making vids have stopped. A few people have taken down their fic archives. All because a few people didn't know the meaning of manners and respect.

You can argue till your blue in the face as to whether or not those guys were right or wrong. Who cares?? The point is, those vids are gone, gone, gone and they aren't coming back. And neither will there be more.

It really is a shame but oh, well. Hope the vidders come to MY fandom, where we respect our artists.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
Quote:
With online vids you're getting something for free; this doesn't mean you get to dictate what that something is, how it's presented, or how it's controlled.

Why not?

I am sure that the producers of every show would argue the same thing about fan-art in whatever form.

Do you honestly expect that because you personally have put hours into something it should be treated differently than everything else? It truely seems hypocrytical that you belive your works are entitled to special consideration when they are in fact stolen ideas. You, me, we are thieves. We break a dimond necklace and ruby broach to make a jeweled crown. Does that make the crown ours? No.

We are not entitled to complain about what other people do with it especially when all that person is doing is exhibiting and sharing your "art" with other people.

I think I should remind you of the fan-subbers motto: "For fans, by fans. If you have paid for this, you have been cheated."

There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

Yes. Yes I do think that if I put hours into creating something I should have a say. My fiction may be based on characters someone else created, but the work itself is mine. My vids may be created using source material I didn't shoot and produce myself, but the finished product is mine. And if I say "Don't archive my fiction without my permission" or "Don't give a copy of my vid to somone connected to the show" I expect that to be respected.

Your fansub analogy falls apart when you bring up the exchange of money. No one here charged money for their vids. No one is making a profit. Vids are truly a labor of love, and in fact, COST the vidder money (computer, cables, hard drives, capture card, software, web hosting, bandwidth) and time. Vidders expect nothing in return except control over where their vids end up and some common courtesy. That's ALL.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to accomplish by telling fan artists that they are hypocrites and thieves and should shut up and let their work pass out of their control because they owe it to fandom. It does nothing but make them resolve to never do anything creative in this fandom again. It does me, anyway.

Oh, just FYI? TPTB are well aware of fan fiction, vids and other fan art. They know it helps promote the show and MOST of them turn a blind eye. But when it's shoved in their face, they have no choice but to react. If you've read the entire thread, you should have seen that the vids came off the net for good reason; someone gave a VCD of them to Nathan Fillion. The vidders found out and reacted in the only way they could to protect themselves. They pulled them off the net. Chances are that once things cooled down, they would have come back. But they won't now.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:50 PM

SUCCATASH

debchan wrote:

"My vids may be created using source material I didn't shoot and produce myself, but the finished product is mine."

It is not yours. And don't forget about the audio you stole, too. The reason the vids have come down is become no one wants to get busted.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 2:57 PM

JAMIE

I really don't have much to contribute worth reading, but I am disappointed that talented vidders are questioning whether or not to post their work. I enjoyed the Firefly vids I've seen so far, and have a lot of respect for the work that's been done. I respect your decision to take them down and hope that some day you'll be able to confidently post them again.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:00 PM

SHINY

I have to admit I'm a bit confused. Was the request by the creators to not mirror/host the file, or to not even link to it? I think it's a pretty well established tradition on the Internet (not just among fanfic writers/vidders) to not mirror content without permission (after all, how would Haken and FireSpy feel if people started posting copies of the unaired episode scripts everywhere?) and there are good reasons for that, but it's also generally understood that you are free to link to anything you want -- if you've made it's available on the Internet, you shouldn't complain if people see it and link to it. If the concern is only about the hosting, then I understand, but the reason I ask about the linking is that some of the arguments have to do with excessive distribution or promotion of the content attracting unwanted attention (e.g. from lawyers) which would seem to apply equally to both hosting and linking to the vids.

By the way, I know emotions are running high here, particularly because both 'sides' believe they are acting out of good intentions and both sides feel hurt and 'betrayed', but I don't think name calling is necessary or helpful. Let's try to keep it civil.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:02 PM

You know, I asked before, and no one answered. Does the site owner here have permission to use the images, scripts and video files I see linked all over the place? Well? No? Then it appears s/he's stealing too.

And you know what? If s/he decided tomorrow that it was too big of a risk to keep doing it and they came down, no one would have a right to tell her/him otherwise.

You're right. No one wants to get busted. And now, thanks to you, there won't be anymore "stealing"! Good job! Everyone, thank Succatash for getting all those nasty vids off the net and tanking your fandom.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:

It is not yours. And don't forget about the audio you stole, too. The reason the vids have come down is become no one wants to get busted.

Dear me, you are hilarious. Acting all indignant and concerned about the Rights of the Studio when you are the one who refused to take the vids down from YOUR website in the first place.

If you were really that high and mighty, dear, you wouldn't have put them on your server to begin with. I'm terribly amused by your utter lack of courtesy and your gall in explaining it.

I simply don't understand why you persist in claiming no one has rights to their own work when people have posted fannish rules, legal rules and whatever else they can that proves you wrong.

Exactly what would it take for you to understand that you are but a few arguing this point when almost the entire fannish world shows you are wrong?

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I have to admit I'm a bit confused. Was the request by the creators to not mirror/host the file, or to not even link to it?

The vids were taken and put directly on another persons server. They were not linked to. And while another person was polite enough to remove said content when the creator asked, the other person refused. That's what started the scuffle.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:12 PM

JUSTICEMCNASTY

Personally, I don't see the point in arguing anymore. Succatash doesn't think he's wrong, and not a one of us is gonna change his mind. Oh, and I agree with Shiny. No need to be callin people names.

Johnny H.-
"How'd you like a bite outta this green apple, America?"

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:12 PM

ELLABELL

Shiny, the request was regarding mirroring the vids, which is why so many of us are upset. The creator (Nia) asked him to take them down very politely, especially considering she had just explained in a different thread on this board why hosting was a tricky subject even with permission. Succatash refused, and mockingly held a "vote" on his site as to whether he should keep the vids. When the results were overwhelmingly not to his liking, he tried changing the wording to trip people up. At some point, his page was taken down by his ISP.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:13 PM

Hosting, Shiny. Here's what happened: A fan gave a VCD of vids to Nathan Fillion. She didn't ask the vidders for permission. In fact, the vidders didn't even know about it until after the fact. I was one of them, btw. We found this out just before she would have given a copy of the VCD to Joss Whedon.

In anticipation of trouble (which could still happen), all of us removed our vids from our sites until the whole thing had blown over.

Someone here asked where all the vids had gone. Someone else said he had a couple on his hard drive and said he would upload them to his site. He did not ask the vidder's permission. One of the vidders found out and requested he take them down. He complied.

Then Succatash decided that vids were "public domain" and uploaded them to HIS site. Again, the vidder requested her vids not be hosted. Succatash refused to remove them. Word got out. Someone wrote to his web hoster and said he was hosting material belonging to someone else and against their express wishes. His site came down. In retaliation, Succatash (or possibly Maniac, since Maniac threatened to "send Nia to jail") wrote to the vidder's web host and tried to get her site TOSed.

And since then, it's all gotten rather nasty. Or, I should say, nastier. Since the attempted TOSing of Nia's site, people have become worried and started removing Firefly content from their sites as well. I've removed all my screen captures along with my vids because I suspect I will be next.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:42 PM

In response to VIV:

Quote:

So...what your saying is, anyone, who does ANY type of fan art should just let anyone take it?

So all the people who do photomanips, all the artists who draw pictures for a show, all that is free for you to grab and do with what you will?

Basically yes. From what I understand of the situation Succatash merely hosted a vid which was already being circulated. Had he claimed it as his own, given credit to someone else or edited it in any way, then I could understand the outrage and rightly so. However the cat is already out of the bag, so to speak. There is no way that Nia can erase what she has done anymore than Mettalica can stop .mp3s. What I object to is her responce to his denial. It was way above and beyond what the situation called for.

If someone puts something on the internet with the express porpose of it being seen for free, then they have no say in how far it goes. They are giving it to the world. I'm sure Succatash loved the vid and wanted to share it in the same way that Nia originally did.

If you only want a select number of people to see it, then don't freely distribute it. Plain and simple.

As for pissing of fans/vidder/etc. I imagine that most of them make it because they want to. I also imagine that you are siding with a fellow vidder. If this was your video why would you not want it to be seen by as many people possible?

I know I don't host my stuff, I give it to people and they do what they will. If I really want a firefly vid I will make one or more likly as is the case, I will hear a song, get inspired and sit down for 10 hours straight. I do it because I love to do it. After it is done I would like people to enjoy it. I'm not out for awards or glory, if you are then we are on different wavelengths.

Now onto DEBCHAN:

Quote:
Yes. Yes I do think that if I put hours into creating something I should have a say. My fiction may be based on characters someone else created, but the work itself is mine. My vids may be created using source material I didn't shoot and produce myself, but the finished product is mine. And if I say "Don't archive my fiction without my permission" or "Don't give a copy of my vid to somone connected to the show" I expect that to be respected.

Once again I must ask WHY. Do you honestly think that if you are willing to infringe on the copyrighted material of Fox and Co. that I should not infringe upon yours. That's the kettle calling the pot black. If you do not fear the long arm of corporate america, then why should I fear yours?

My fansub analogy is correct. Succatash had to "pay" for Nia's fanvid by losing his site, getting blacklisted, most likly harrassed by the server's lawyer and now getting verbally assaulted for defending himself. And all of this for something that can probably be gotten off of any number of p2p programs. He got cheated.

Again you argue over the control that the fan-vidder should have. I am arguing that that control does not exist. I don't think that they should give it up for the good of fandom, I just don't honestly think that it can be controlled.

Quote:
But when it's shoved in their face, they have no choice but to react. If you've read the entire thread, you should have seen that the vids came off the net for good reason; someone gave a VCD of them to Nathan Fillion. The vidders found out and reacted in the only way they could to protect themselves. They pulled them off the net. Chances are that once things cooled down, they would have come back. But they won't now.

So a perfect example of that would be when Nia wrote to succatash's ISP and shoved it in thier face.

Secondly, this quote proves that you too feel that fan-vidding is illegal. Otherwise, it would not have been pulled off the net. So now we are back to the argument of why you feel your illegal work should be protected.

My two arguments main arguments are:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with her I.P. Address and I.P. provider? Or write to the ISP provider personally. All of this is within his power. He hasn't done it because I assume he feels it would be overreacting as well.

2a. Fans should do it for love of the show and then let thier creation loose instead of trying to fight the inevitable. Once it is on MY hard drive, it is MINE.

2b. No matter how you look at it, what we do is theft. Plain and simple. No two ways about it.
There is saying that goes "Thieves that steal from thieves get 100 years of pardon." (Its a bad translation and I apologize.)

As for courtesy, that should be extended at all times and I do not agree with Saccutash's name calling but I do see why he is upset.

Lastly, on a happy note copyright infringment only becomes a federal felony after $50,000 worth of theft, so breathe easy and go dig up your vids from the backyard.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 3:52 PM

SHINY

Thanks for the clarification, DebChan. The discussion about the VCD came into the thread somewhat abruptly, and I think that some of the arguments got confused between the two.

I think I have a link to the netiquette of caching and mirroring somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Ultimately, offering to mirror content is nice because it conserves bandwith and helps to promote and distribute the original content, but should only be done with the content creator/owner's permission. There are legitimate reasons why someone might not want their content cached/mirrored, including banner ad revenue (not relevant here), collecting statistics, managing updates to the content, promoting the site its hosted on, ensuring a specific user experience, etc.

And while it is true that the fan vids are based on material copyrighted by someone other than the creator, I would point out that this web site is too (look at the bottom right of the screen):

"All FIREFLY related graphics and photos on this page are copyright 2002 Mutant Enemy, Inc. and 20th Century Fox"

I think most people would prefer to look the other way and continue to enjoy both Haken's excellent site and these great vids rather than force the copyright issue. I would hate to have every scrap of FOX or ME copyrighted content, images, scripts, etc. removed from this site (although I could do without the image of the skinned guy from 'bushwhacked' -- yuck!)

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:

2a. Fans should do it for love of the show and then let thier creation loose instead of trying to fight the inevitable. Once it is on MY hard drive, it is MINE.

By that argument, anything I put on my computer is MINE and I can do with it what I wish.

Somehow, I doubt that the owners of all the books, movies, etc that I could distribute via my computer would agree with that. And the judge who sends me to jail isn't about to either.

Also, it's hard to call making vids and whatnot theft in those terms. We all know the vid makers don't own Firefly. But by your definition, you can download my fanfiction, do whatever you like to it and re-upload it without giving me credit. Tell me, does that sound right?

Arguing with you is probably pointless; you've made up your mind. However, I would like to add that no matter how pissed Succutash was, there isn't much of an excuse for calling people, I believe it was 'fat-assed twinkie eating women.'

I wouldn't defend a person who said that if he was the pope.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:15 PM

HOOBITY

>The reason the vids have come down is become no one wants to get busted.>

The only real reason the vids are down is because you and maniacnumberone have made it widely known that you're prowling the fandom like a couple of of mangey, flea-bitten coyotes. You have made it quite clear that you will steal any FF vid from their creators and ignore their wishes about distribution if the vids go back up.

Thus, they will not go up.

Period.

And don't gimme any of that crud about "we can't steal it, they already stole the material to make the vids!" because you could take the numbers in fandom who care/believe that point and safely stuff it up your nose.

If I spend 50 hours making a vid, I should at least be treated courteously and with SOME measure of appreciation by the fandom who wants to see it, not bent over and given the shaft by pea-brain, atavistic churls like you who never absorbed the most rudimentary of lessons in successful social interaction.

FACT: only a fraction of any fandom actually *produces* the fan art, the fiction, the vids, etc. This small but active percentage is what pushes fandom from being a group of people with like interests into a living, breathing community.

Alienate that creative percentage, and you gut the fandom.

That's why we respect the fan artists. That's why we take their wishes into consideration when it comes to their vids and fic and art. Why? Do I have to spell it out for you? So that more will follow! They don't OWE us or the fandom OR YOU a durned thing. Never did. Never will. I suggest you take that high-handed sense of entitlement you've gifted yourself with and sell it to buy a clue.

Yes, fandom is a community. A community has rules. I don't care about your personal pet philosophy on the matter and there will sooner be pork on Mars before it's adopted as the norm. But hey, this has worked out great for you! You didn't want to be a part of our community. Guess what? You no longer are.

You're free! Now you and maniacnumberone can go and start a commune for pompous, self-entitled suckpuppets. Population: 2.

You guys should also invest some cash in video cards and new software if you ever want to see another FF vid, because your well just dried up.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:

My two arguments main arguments are:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with her I.P. Address and I.P. provider? Or write to the ISP provider personally. All of this is within his power. He hasn't done it because I assume he feels it would be overreacting as well.

Well, SOMEONE wrote to Nia's ISP and tried to get her TOSed. As far as the other, how do we know he hasn't?

I don't know how long you've been active in fandom, but there are acccepted fannish standards. One of them is: When someone asks you to not host a creative work, you take it down. Period. Whether you think they're right or wrong, whether you think it's fair of not, you just do it, or eventually you will not be welcome in that fandom anymore. Or, as has happened here, people who DO create in that fandom will stop.

Quote:

2a. Fans should do it for love of the show and then let thier creation loose instead of trying to fight the inevitable. Once it is on MY hard drive, it is MINE.

If you vid, then you know it's a labor of love. And yes, once you've downloaded my vid, you can do with it whatever you will. That includes giving it to other people, actors, Joss Whedon, or uploading it to your website and not taking it down when I ask. What is the result? I no longer vid. Other vidders (and it's a rather large community) find out about this and decide they no longer want to risk have vids online. We all KNOW there's a risk in having vids online. We rely on the courtesy of other fans to respect our wishes when it comes to our vids. When it's clear we cannot do that, we stop sharing our vids, because, guess what? It's not fun anymore and not worth the effort.

Quote:

2b. No matter how you look at it, what we do is theft. Plain and simple. No two ways about it.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. No one is saying vids aren't created using material belonging to someone else. However, the finished product (yes, yes, I know you disagree) is uniquely mine. You and I could pick the same song and do a vid in the same fandom, and I will bet you everything I own that the two vids will be totally different. Do I *own* the clips? No. Do I own the music? No. Do I own my own creation? Yes indeed I do.

You're quite free to disagree with me. It won't change my mind. And finally, your other point.

Quote:
If you only want a select number of people to see it, then don't freely distribute it. Plain and simple.

Done and done.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:27 PM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by hoobity:
Yes, fandom is a community. A community has rules. I don't care about your personal pet philosophy on the matter and there will sooner be pork on Mars before it's adopted as the norm. But hey, this has worked out great for you! You didn't want to be a part of our community. Guess what? You no longer are.

You're free! Now you and maniacnumberone can go and start a commune for pompous, self-entitled suckpuppets. Population: 2.

You guys should also invest some cash in video cards and new software if you ever want to see another FF vid, because your well just dried up.

On behalf of fat twinkie-eating women (I also write doofy fanfic) everywhere: Shut up already! Gawd.

Y'all took your barbies and went home. Fine, okay, we get it. We got it 25 posts ago.

Nobody is totally right and nobody is totally wrong.

And as much as I'd like to see a shiny fuzzy community of all Firefly fans everywhere, I'll stick with this one and you stick with yours and we can ignore each other til we go away. I've seen a lot of new nicks in this thread. Older, even more recent and more active nicks know that Succatash is a good guy, fun and well-liked and generally plays well with others. I'll take his community or any other, vids or no vids.

I'll personally circle the wagons. Y'all don't want to be a part, don't. Go.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:28 PM

ELLABELL

Quote:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with her I.P. Address and I.P. provider? Or write to the ISP provider personally. All of this is within his power. He hasn't done it because I assume he feels it would be overreacting as well.

Yes, he has. Nia's ISP got a letter from Succatash and/or Maniac (we presume). She resolved the situation successfully with her ISP and keep her domain running, because she did nothing wrong, unlike Succatash. She has also been very closely exposed to the first situation you described there with her vids being burned to that VCD and handed to Nate Fillion.

Nia simply chose not to further heat the debate here by calling Succatash and Maniac on their going to her ISP in a vain attempt to harass her, for which she should be commended, imo. I saw her response to the situation (which I am not linking to, b/c I think she has had trouble enough from Succatash and Maniac) and it was incredibly mature and rational. She didn't overreact in the first place. If it had been my work, I would have gone straightaway to Succatash's ISP without so much as the warning she gave him.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:34 PM