Firefly Music Videos - Download Now by Succatash

Out of faint curiosity, where is this FF community? is it here on Fireflyfans.net? On the official Firefly boards? Because I'm really active in FF and the general consensus wherever I look is waaay on the side of the vidders keeping control of their works.

So I'm just curious.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:47 PM

> As I understand it, someone created something (using material created by others, but that doesn't matter, it's still hard work). Someone else took it. The first person asked "Please don't do that." The second person said "Screw you. You suck. I'll do what I want."

> Is that about it?

Yep, that about sums up Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Thanks for posting, TallGuy.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:51 PM

> There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

That is so far from being correct that I don't even know where to begin teaching you anything.

Do you write? Vid? Draw? Paint? Sculpt? Because I'm having a really hard time believing that anyone who actually creates this could take the stance you're presenting.

And it's not about getting recognition. As has been said before in either this thread or the other related one on these boards, it's about vidder self-preservation, keeping the liberty to continue to make vids.

If you've read both of these threads and you still don't understand that, TragicStory, then I don't think anything I say further, no matter how sensible, simplified, rational or polite I might be, will convince you otherwise.

By your posts here, you now share the blame for forcing vidders and other fannish creative artists underground, off the net, and away from Firefly.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 4:52 PM

Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:

(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.

(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.

If you would like to dispute this, I'd be interested in seeing your reasonings, other than 'It is on my computer.'

All these things have been stated time after time, and it would see that 'your' community simply doesn't want to look at the facts as they are listed. Time and again these things have been said and ignored. Look upward at the post on the 'Berne Convention'.

I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that you don't own everything on your computer, but what you are saying is akin to sitting in a chair in MY house and declaring it is yours because you are sitting in it.

And thank you to the person above for inviting us out of this community because we are new, but it was my understand that YOU don't own THIS. If and when the owners ask me to leave, I will be happy to do so.

Unlike some people.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:01 PM

> You "vidders" have screwed up because you are more worried about your fame and personal glory then you are saving Firefly.

Once again, Succatash, you are completely and utterly missing the point.

You are confusing self-preservation with fame. You are confusing artistic expression with a save-the-show campaign. And frankly, you've been downright insulting to me and others while you're at it.

I've read back over these two threads very carefully, and I've confirmed something I noticed before and didn't want to comment on... but now I'm thinking it ought to be said out in the open:
When you thought I was a man, you were willing to insult my intelligence. When you thought I was a woman, suddenly you began insulting my weight, my sex life, my snack foods of choice. Bottom line on that? I think you're unwilling to admit in a public forum that you might be wrong and a woman might be right. You are unwilling to admit that any women might know more about fannish culture and the production of artistic works in your favorite show's fandom than you do.

Personally, I hope that every single Firefly fansite that is brought down by choice of its maintainers is replaced with a simple text page pointing right back to this thread and the other one here, because it's blazingly clear that no fannish creation is safe from people like you.

I hope that every single site that gets password protected, every single piece of fannish art that's not shared openly by its creator, has a big sign on the splash page for the restricted site saying "People like Succatash made this restriction necessary, because he has no respect whatsoever for artists or other fans."

Neither you nor ManiacNumberOne has ever answered a single question I posed in my posts here. You've been insulting in nearly every response to every person posting whom you assume is a woman and who disagrees with you. From what I've seen of your posts, I don't think you'll ever understand what you're really doing here, what you're accomplishing in the wider context of fannish culture.

You are driving Firefly fandom and vidding in general underground, if not killing it outright... because you can't see beyond yourself to any larger picture or consequences.

If this makes you happy, go right ahead and continue posting bile-filled rants and insults, threats to report fannish artists to any of their ISPs or any of the copyright holders of the show. Go right ahead convincing the majority of the people reading this discussion board that you are a self-centered egotistical fool who is unwilling to educate himself or listen to others when they try to present real information. Go right ahead betraying the base of fannish creators who would have been perfectly willing to be the public relations people for your precious campaign to save your favorite show had you shown one ounce of clue or respect for their work. Go right ahead. Right now I'm seeing you as one step below pond scum on the evolutionary ladder, and I hope I never encounter anyone like you in any other fandom.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elketanzer:
> There is never an excuse for a fan-artist to get upset over the distribution of thier art.

That is so far from being correct that I don't even know where to begin teaching you anything.

Do you write? Vid? Draw? Paint? Sculpt? Because I'm having a really hard time believing that anyone who actually creates this could take the stance you're presenting.

And it's not about getting recognition. As has been said before in either this thread or the other related one on these boards, it's about vidder self-preservation, keeping the liberty to continue to make vids.

If you've read both of these threads and you still don't understand that, TragicStory, then I don't think anything I say further, no matter how sensible, simplified, rational or polite I might be, will convince you otherwise.

By your posts here, you now share the blame for forcing vidders and other fannish creative artists underground, off the net, and away from Firefly.

Elke

SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

And yes, I have done vids and I have no clue where they are now because I don't care who sees them. I don't host them and REALLY doubt anyone could trace it to me, let alone PROVE I created it. Fanning can survive by hosting it on a p2p program for 3 days then erasing it off your computer. If it is good it gets circulated, if not, it doesnt.

Unless you are dumb enough to host your own stuff on the internet or put your real name and social security # in the vid itself, the chances of you getting caught are very slim to none. Not to mention the fact that no one would press charges even if they did catch you. Civil court maybe, doubtful, but maybe.

My posts supports the sharing of all fan-stuff. I am not the ones running for the hills pulling stuff off the internet because I am afraid of a non existant menace. Niether is saccutash. Aparently the true menace is the mob which is after us for having different views.

I am also not the idiot who walked up and handed someone a VCD so I would appreciate it if you didn't treat me as if I were.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:13 PM

Quote:

SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

They don't. They get cease and desist letters and dozens of people are forced to take their sites offline.

Don't believe me? Ask X-Files, Buffy, any Anne Rice fansite, to name a few. It's not about getting arrested, it is about getting BUSTED, which isn't the same.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:13 PM

Here you go:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:17 PM

so in short if they were to put it on a p2p or server/client program then it would not happen. Problem solved.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:17 PM

Quote:
Aparently the true menace is the mob which is after us for having different views.
Quote:

I'd also like to point out that by hosting other people's vids when they ask you NOT to is forcing your 'different views' on other people, which is exactly what you are excusing the 'mob' of doing.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:21 PM

TRAGICSTORY said:

"and yes, I have done vids and I have no clue where they are now because I don't care who sees them."

Obviously everyone isn't you, and you have failed to create a convincing argument why they should adopt your stance.

And Debchan creates the vids I want to see. Haven't heard of you.

Not insulting. Just the truth.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:21 PM

Quote:
I'd also like to point out that by hosting other people's vids when they ask you NOT to is forcing your 'different views' on other people, which is exactly what you are excusing the 'mob' of doing.

very true. I never host anything where people I don't know can get at it, but I feel that he did it with good intentions. BTW have we hit 100 posts yet?

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:22 PM

TragicStory, I'm taking a deep, deep breath here... honest question time: what is your fannish background? Anime? RPG? Because you obviously are stating your point with conviction, which you say is based on experience.

I am not trying to invalidate that experience... I am now honestly curious what fannish, or fanning, community is the way you say it is.

Please realize that others have not had it as easy. Please read over http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for some of the horror stories.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:28 PM

My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

Please don't get upset, we are merely arguing because can not relate to each other yet.

ACTUALLY WE DO HAVE SOMETHING WE CAN RELATE TO:
THE VILENESS OF FOX!

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Quote:

And as much as I'd like to see a shiny fuzzy community of all Firefly fans everywhere, I'll stick with this one and you stick with yours

Hmm yeah, but yours is the one ripping mine off and behaving like asshats.

But fine, fine. Keep your FF community of 3. Have fun. I'll be over here with the Browncoats.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR FANNING ANYTHING LET ALONE FIREFLY. THEN I WILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS FOR SELF PRESERVATION.

I don't know anyone whp's been *arrested*, but I do know a vidder who hosted multiple (over 600) fannish vids on her private server, that was visited by legal representatives of the RIAA. They looked up her ISP, subpoenaed her home address, and went to her house. They ordered her to remove all materials from her website, confiscated copies of VCDs, DVDs, VHS tapes of the vids she had. That was HER property, except it wasn't, and they took it away. They left her the server that she had paid a fair sum of money for, and left her computer, but they did make her sign the Cease & Desist order so that if she ever does put anything available - either on a website, or through P2P network - she will then be arrested, pay fines, etc.

Granted this will probably not happen to a person who has one or two little vids. But I pay a couple of hundred dollars a year for my webspace -if it gets yanked away from me, I'm out that money with nothing to show for it. I may not get actually arrested, but I could be fined, and have property confiscated.

So don't tell me that I'm being overly paranoid. I DO know people that have gotten C&D letters *and* have been physically visited by lawyers.

We don't make up this stuff just to get everyone all excited, you know.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
Here you go:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I find it really interesting that you posted this - especially this part:

"It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars."

Hmmm. Probably not the section you wanted to call attention to, but, effectively states what everyone here has been trying to say. Disrespecting the wishes of the artists causes art to disappear. Seems like this should not be a difficult concept to grasp.

Forget the ridiculous arguements about copyright law, blah blah ... it's not ABOUT that. It's about respecting your fellow fan - not because you are legally bound to, but because it's just good manners.

All this argument about "law" can go round and round for days (and has) and get nowhere. The point is, Do Unto Others, and all that sort of thing. Ask first, and if denied, be big about it and don't go against the wishes of your fellow fan.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

Ahhhh, suddenly things make sense. I've been in both anime communities and regular slash ones and things are completely different between the two.

Believe me, I have seen fandoms literally ripped from the web by The Powers That Be, and not because anyone has even given a CD to one of the actors. Sometimes, the Powers decide it has gone too far and they shut down the works.

That is what has everyone so worked up. Too much unknowing exposure can ruin an entire fandom and drive it completely underground. We don't want to have to go there, and I also suppose I just can't understand the various insults and whatnot being thrown around. Even in my anime communities, people asked me before hosting my stories and respected my wishes if I said 'No.'

It hurts to be treated so rudely and people often lash out in hurt retaliation. There are people behind these names, everyone, and we Twinkie Eating Bitches don't deserve those insults, not from someone who is supposed to be fun-loving and nice.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:38 PM

TragicStory, thank you.

My intention was not to personally insult you. I apologize if I did. Honestly, I am simply very frustrated by dealing with Succatash, and I've posted so much here that has not been read by ManiacNumberOne and Succatash that I'm more inclined to assume that folks just joining in now haven't read all of my previous (and slightly calmer) posts, and are ignoring completely all of the information I and others have provided and linked to.

Anime fandom is very different from live-action US media fandom... by which I mean TV shows and movies. A vidder acquaintance of mine explained that difference to me sometime in the wee hours of Friday/Saturday, and I'm really happy that anime fandom is so much more open than media fandom.

Please believe me when I say that the copyright holders, trademark holders, and ISPs that might be involved in infringment and property rights grey areas in media fandom have a history of being much more brutal to fans and fandoms than anime copyright holders and trademark holders. The Bringers site has a relatively small number of examples, but their collection is growing as fans from more fandoms chime in.

I really am disappointed that really, all of this could have been averted had the vidders been asked ahead of time and their requests listened to. We could have all been civil and made new friends. As it is, everthing's a mess and Firefly fandom is getting a really horrible reputation among vidders, as well as some writers and other artists. That's a pity, because Firefly really is a cool show.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elketanzer:

I've read back over these two threads very carefully, and I've confirmed something I noticed before and didn't want to comment on... but now I'm thinking it ought to be said out in the open:
When you thought I was a man, you were willing to insult my intelligence. When you thought I was a woman, suddenly you began insulting my weight, my sex life, my snack foods of choice. Bottom line on that? I think you're unwilling to admit in a public forum that you might be wrong and a woman might be right. You are unwilling to admit that any women might know more about fannish culture and the production of artistic works in your favorite show's fandom than you do.

God, did you hit that one on the head. :) But more than that - these guys are trolls. Kicking back in an easy chair at home, pushing all the hot buttons
and ignoring all reason while secretly enjoying the hell out of this because this is the first time women have paid attention to them in five years.

Human nature. Heh. Wish I could squish them.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
My background is Anime. I have done some AMV's registered at www.animemusicvideos.com, I have hosted an anime server on hotline for about 2-3 years. The Hotline Anime community is the community that I most often afiliate myself with, though I have a passing familiarity with IRC. As I have posted before, we obviously have different ways of seeing and doing things.

AHA, this explains a lot - Anime fandom is a lot free-er and looser with their vids. Any Kazaa search will tell you that - you'll see literally hundreds of Anime vids on P2P.

But non-Anime vidders have very different opinions on the matter and the Anime community has a very different set of rules and standards - the vidder egroup has had this discussion before, and it's been talked about at cons. Which are different than Anime cons, which often have huge vid contests, and thing like that. Anime is a whole different world, in many ways, from non-Anime vidding.

Now I see why we are talking in circles - we are comparing apples to oranges.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:40 PM

Quote:

I don't know anyone whp's been *arrested*, but I do know a vidder who hosted multiple (over 600) fannish vids on her private server, that was visited by legal representatives of the RIAA.

Well to start, 600 is an excessive number of file to host and expect to fly below the radar.

Secondly, RIAA is just proof that Satan is alive and well. BTW, did you read about the 4 college kids they are suing? Its unbelievable.

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:42 PM

Quote:
Now I see why we are talking in circles - we are comparing apples to oranges.

Shiny! Now if you will still agree that Fox is evil, I shall promptly buy you a beer!

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:46 PM

KAYTHRYN

My little gift to all yee who refuse to let things go-- even though the point it lost, nothing is being accomplished and your arguments are doing little more than beating the proverbial dead horse, and making the high blood pressure statistics rise.

1.) A cup of tea with honey and some quiet Mozart. I suggest the Blue Danube Waltz.

2.) A moments reflection on how trivial this is. (Yeah, I know everyone’s heard this one from mom-- “Think of all the starving people in Ethiopia! Do you think they care about who get to sit in that seat, if she poked you, or all those silly vid’s the neighborhood kids argue about???”)

3.) A smile. Stop gnashing your teeth and enjoy life, it ain’t that long folks.

4.) A kick in the ass and a “shut the hell up already people!”

**Minute outburst, please refer back to #3.**

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
Shiny! Now if you will still agree that Fox is evil, I shall promptly buy you a beer!

Well. On my Firefly vid page (now defunct, thanks to all of this and the VCD incident) I had a long explanation about the evils of Fox - how they not only cancel good shows, but are widely known to come down hard on online fans of those shows (Buffy, X-Files, to name the most recent victims). I asked people who downloaded and watched the vids please to not distribute, link to, or mirror them without my express permission, and I had my email addy right there for easy contact.

All of which was ignored, my vid was handed to Nate Fillion and very nearly handed to Joss himself, and now my vids, including Hallelujah (the FF vid) and that long "how Fox sucks" explanation, are gone.

So if you want me to agree that Fox is evil, there's not question about that. But you can keep your beer money, thanks anyway. Have one for me.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:50 PM

Well, I agree that Fox is dopey for taking good shows off the air, and that they're a menace to good fun for doing what their lawyers have done to creative fans.

TragicStory, maybe we have some common ground after all. After all, I like beer, and I honestly do hate Twinkies.

Have I mentioned that I also have some experience in a couple of anime fandoms? Not with vids much, but in the online community of writers... fanfic and drawings. If you tell me that you're the vidder that created Happiness Hotel in Ranma 1/2, I'll buy you a beer.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:50 PM

So after 100+ posts, I have new friends and realize that things are completly different on the American side of things. So this is when I apologize for my ignorance and am very glad someone had the insight to ask where I was coming from. So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed.

BTW, if you would like a detailed account of the Hotline Anime community let me know as I wrote a rather large paper on it. (which you can do whatever you want with once you get it

)

"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elketanzer:
Please realize that others have not had it as easy. Please read over http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for some of the horror stories.

Elke

Elke - don't forget, http://chillingeffects.org - where the whole concept of C&D letters is explained quite well, and examples are posted.

So you can see exactly what happens when TPTB come after a fan site. There are also discussions there of copyright law as it relates to fannish enterprise - many of the links bandied about in the last few days have not been fandom specific.

If nothing else, this has at least been educational, for the people willing to listen.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:54 PM

JUSTICEMCNASTY

What are they suing them for? (Yeah, I'm a bit behind here)

Johnny H.-
"How'd you like a bite outta this green apple, America?"

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
So after 100+ posts, I have new friends and realize that things are completly different on the American side of things. So this is when I apologize for my ignorance and am very glad someone had the insight to ask where I was coming from. So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed.

Oh! And you are not in the US! This also explains a lot - copyright law over here is MUCH different than across the pond. (Either pond)

I have friends who host their vids on "offshore" servers so as to skirt around the RIAA, MPIAA, and other U.S. agencies that might otherwise come after them.

Sometimes we forget fandom is an international enterprise and the rules are different.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
A moments reflection on how trivial this is.

You only think it's trivial because it hasn't happened to you personally. I certainly don't find what happened to me to be trivial at all - especially since, now following what happened to Nia, I've got a phone call from my ISP as well.(Luckily, I had already taken everything down, so I didn't lose my site.)

You can always start another thread, and avoid reading this one :) I say that with respect, too, not snarkiness, just so you know.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 5:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
So now that everyone is no longer mad at me I think I will go to bed

Hold on there.

My fandom is in shreds, and a whole HELL of a lot of Firefly fannish stuff that I enjoyed on the internet is gone for good. You contributed to that, albeit not as much as succatash and maniacnumberone and some others.

So you'll forgive me if I don't hold any parties just yet.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 6:01 PM

Hello, JusticeMcNasty...

I'd not heard of the RIAA/four college students nightmare before, but I just googled for "riaa sues college students" and came up with over a thousand hits.

Looks like RIAA says they were sharing 2.5 million files on their "local area Napster networks". Scary, scary stuff.

Elke

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Monday, April 21, 2003 6:05 PM

JUSTICEMCNASTY

*Hastily deletes multitude of files while whistling and has shifty eyes*

No, but thanks for the info. If anyone cares, I'm still gonna share my FF vid. It's called 'Hero' and I'm usually on Kazaa, so if you want.

Johnny H.-
"How'd you like a bite outta this green apple, America?"

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Monday, April 21, 2003 6:08 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Well, probably a bit late for me to say this, but please be civil to one another when the discussions get heated.

FWIW, as someone who runs a fansite, I walk a fine line when it comes to the whole copyright issue. I'm not much of a policymaker, or follower, for that matter. But I do have 3 simple rules that I go by as far as this website is concerned.

1. If I didn't create it, it's not mine.
2. If it's not mine, I need permission.
3. If I don't have permission (because sometimes it just takes forever to get it or not able to), I have to remove the item when the person who created it asks me to.

It's just commonsense. So far things have worked out here on FIREFLYFANS.NET by following those three simple rules and I am able to operate without restrictions. It's a win-win situation, which is how things should be for all of us.

Just my thoughts.

In any case, please be civil.

Thanks,
Haken

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Monday, April 21, 2003 6:29 PM

KAYTHRYN

Quote:
Posted by bonibaru:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kaythryn:
A moments reflection on how trivial this is.
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You only think it's trivial because it hasn't happened to you personally. I certainly don't find what happened to me to be trivial at all - especially since, now following what happened to Nia, I've got a phone call from my ISP as well.(Luckily, I had already taken everything down, so I didn't lose my site.)

You can always start another thread, and avoid reading this one :) I say that with respect, too, not snarkiness, just so you know.

Please tell me you're not serious.

You haven’t lost a family member, or your house, or your dog, or a limb because of this... you got a call. (I know what I just said sounded snarky, but I mean it.)

By the way, do you think that maybe it we had all minded our own business and let Nia and Manic handle this themselves like the big kids they are, maybe the rest of the vidder community wouldn’t be getting so many nasty calls?

Come on, there are so many other thing happening in the world. --I don't mean that in the sense that there are so many other things we should spend out time fretting over, but things we should enjoy.-- Silly fun things, the color blue, Sean Maher, and all things Firefly.

Really, I think we've all heard about all there is to say on this subject-- something like 130 posts from each side and a few in between. Anything we say now is just repeated from the beginning.

We get it.

Let me repeat-- 130 posts, novel length…yeah, we get it.

Now matter how much each side argues, some people are not going to change their minds. And since this topic isn't about anything that has to do with loss of limb or loss of dog, I think we can all let it go now.

Look at me here, you got me preaching to let it go and see, I’m not. Wait….now I am…poof, it’s gone.

-----I remembered another "by the way"-- I can't post a new thread for some reason...so I'm just going to start hijacking everyone else’s.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Monday, April 21, 2003 6:45 PM

Quote:

Please tell me you're not serious.

You haven’t lost a family member, or your house, or your dog, or a limb because of this... you got a call. (I know what I just said sounded snarky, but I mean it.)

By the way, do you think that maybe it we had all minded our own business and let Nia and Manic handle this themselves like the big kids they are, maybe the rest of the vidder community wouldn’t be getting so many nasty calls?

Please tell me YOU'RE not serious. It's being cavalier about other people's property like this that caused the scuffle to begin with.

And this argument was NEVER just between two people, since more than one person had their vids handed over to TPTB.

I do agree that this battle has been done to death, but you certainly could have chosen a less antagonistic way of saying it. If I got a phone call from my ISP I'd be freaking out too. That's several hundred dollars down the tube if they decide you are violating their TOS. Are YOU going to replace that money, since it's really no big deal?

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Monday, April 21, 2003 7:11 PM

KAYTHRYN

Aw crap. I’d just like to mention I’ve got a history paper due in a few hours so I think is going to have to be the condensed version.

I apologize if you took my words as being rude. I’m not trying to be confrontational, or mean, or disrespectful of peoples feeling and the such. I don’t know what to say that won’t be taken as sarcastic so please just read over what I had written and picture me with a happy face. Also, I don’t think your quoting did me justice, you left out the great Ethiopia part, so here I’ll quote myself-

Quote:
2.) A moments reflection on how trivial this is. (Yeah, I know everyone’s heard this one from mom-- “Think of all the starving people in Ethiopia! Do you think they care about who get to sit in that seat, if she poked you, or all those silly vid’s the neighborhood kids argue about???”)

3.) A smile. Stop gnashing your teeth and enjoy life, it ain’t that long folks…

Come on, there are so many other thing happening in the world. --I don't mean that in the sense that there are so many other things we should spend out time fretting over, but things we should enjoy.-- Silly fun things, the color blue, Sean Maher, and all things Firefly.

My main point is that this argument is not doing anything but allowing us to bicker. Why continue our angry posts when we could just let this all be handled between the vidder and the “thief” in question. And as I’ve been corrected, I don’t just mean Nia and Manic. I’m just trying to put this into perspective. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, but I really don’t see how this is worse than losing your dog.

Quote:
If I got a phone call from my ISP I'd be freaking out too. That's several hundred dollars down the tube if they decide you are violating their TOS. Are YOU going to replace that money, since it's really no big deal?

For one, if it was a risk you were unwilling to…uh…risk then you shouldn’t of posted your work, or you should of solidly protected it somehow. Come one, I’m sure this isn’t the first time in vid history that someone downloaded some one else’s work and posted it elsewhere. It can’t be a new thing.

Secondly, no, I’m not going to pay because someone took your work that you put up. If I leave my big screen TV in my front yard for all the neighborhood kids to watch, and it gets stolen, I think I’d be my fault, and the thief. Boy, did I mention I’m bad at metaphors? I’m sure someone gets the gist of what I was shooting for there though.

P.s. Love the BIG words. Added an emphasis that was all about ME.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Monday, April 21, 2003 7:13 PM

FFWF

I actually think that a large part of this conflict is cultural. A friend of mine once told me that most fandoms reflect the shows they like. X-Files fans tend to be paranoid. Babylon 5 fans are rather factious. And Star Trek folks more or less get along and work together well. From what I've seen of Firefly, some fans seem to think of fandom as the Old West where no rules should apply to them and they can do whatever they want.

This is more or less true. After all, we don't really have very many ways of enforcing rules so it does come down to rules of etiquette or codes of honor - most of which probably evolved primarily out of Trek.

The second cultural difference is in the way people post. LJC's post that so instantly offended Maniac to me looked like a polite, if somewhat emphatic, warning that what he was doing might be looked upon unfavorably by others. He saw the phrase "content theft" and was livid, though he did do the right thing which was to contact the vidder to get permission. When that was denied, he took it off. He grumbled about it but as far as I'm concerned, grumbling is allowed.

Unfortunately, here is where we hit cultural difference #3 - male/female. Succatash seemed to be very upset that his buddy was being picked on by a bunch of girls and felt the need to defend him. Some of the philosophical points he made might have some merit (though I don't really agree with most and don't think the others really applied to the situation.) Unfortunately, he couldn't seem to make his points without thowing out some meaningless insult. He was more or less civil to Elke until he realized she was female at which point we got the now famous "fat chicks waving their Twinkies whining, 'I've got to be me!'" I don't say this to insult him. I am simply trying to figure this out. But, I don't think Succatash is used to dealing with women. You cannot a thing to say in front of a large group of women and expect to be persuasive. (By this point, this discussion had been noticed by a lot of vidders and in case you didn't know, vidders tend to be female.) Most people know that. It is not simply an etiquette thing. It is a survival thing. It's possible that had he not used that particular turn of phrase, his site would not have been shut down so quickly (Not 100% sure of the timing, though.) It certainly cut off most of the sympathy he might have gotten afterward.

Personally, I think the website shutdown, justifiable or not, was a little premature and counterproductive. The pro-vidder types had tried appealing to his reason, manners, and compassion and failed miserably, but had not really tried diplomacy. Maybe we could have tried offering him something in exchange for taking the vid down which could have avoided the TOS war. (As a rather hawkish Conservative Republican, it's really weird to watch this argument coming off my keyboard. Sigh.)

I thank those of you on both sides of this dicussion/argument/war who have posted legal tidbits. As a paranoid, anxiety-ridden vidder myself, it is reassuring to know that some of my worst fears may be unfounded. Irrational fears, however, are not any less real to the person bearing them than rational fears are. Even if you think that Nia's fears were irrational, that does not make it OK for Succatash to torment her with them.

I have more to say but I have an appointment with my shrink in the morning and should probably be awake. I think I will stop waving my Twinkie for now, put in my mouthguard so I won't grind my teeth all night, take my Celexa and go to bed.

Goodnight.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 7:34 PM

SUCCATASH

MESSAGE TO MY OPPOSITION

"That's why it's okay for me to make fun of how fat you are."

I apologize for this comment, and for all Twinkie-related comments. It is never okay to make fun of someone for being fat. I was drunk, furious, and wounded when I wrote those words.

Let me also say that I never complained to Nia's hosting company, nor anyone else's. Nor did I threaten to.

I maintain that turning me in was extremely hypocrytical and cruel. And I stand by all of my arguments.

I'm not interested in your secret organization, with it's ancient rules, hopping from one TV show fan site to another, making artwork and giving each other high-fives for being cool.

Your rules do not apply to me. I am not in your club. I'll stay here at Fireflyfans.net until Haken kicks me out, and I hope that day never comes.

But I am truly sorry for the fat comments. I'm still thinking about the Jesus comment. Bad timing with Easter and all. Okay, I'm sorry about that, too.

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Monday, April 21, 2003 7:40 PM

WULFHAWK

So basically, we got people with illegal video and music compilations, on illegal hosting sites, arguing with people who copied the illegal video and music compilations and illegally hosted them.

Oh. and they called the laws on each other?
I see.

I told you kids, if you play in crap

, you come out smellin like crap.

tanstaafl

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Monday, April 21, 2003 8:09 PM

HAKAI

Um from one anime fan to another- plenty of fan subbers are perfectly free to get upset after an offical US version has been released, were upon their subs go from gray to illegal.

The point here is that this subculture has existed in part because, much like fan-subbers they don't flaunt it in front of say Central Park Media? (assuming they did the US version of whatever show), some one did this with FF fan vids, folowed by everyone getting nervous and trying to make sure that their other vids were not in places easily accesable by TPTB. Succatash was politly asked to remove it from his? unprotected site, and he? did not.

Fan-subbing and viding are also in several ways compleatly different- theres not such a gray area of no cash,no us version, no fault as there is in Fan-subbing. Given that most people are espousing a system that has worked well since the 60's and mirrors international law, I would say that theyre in the right.

So far M and S havent shown themselves to be anything but, well, disgustingly rude. I personally would expect better behavior from a 16 year old, but I could have my standards set too high. You all need to grow up and start acting like adults. It does your fandom no service when you deliberatly add to fuss that's pusing fans father underground. If you want an example go look at Anne Rice fandom- she's cracked down so hard there basicly are no fanworks. Fandom opperates by rules and customs usually designed to keep the TPTB away from the questionable legality stuff. Otherwise the only vids around would be satires( satire being protected and all)

Regs

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Monday, April 21, 2003 8:20 PM

HAKAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
MESSAGE TO MY OPPOSITION

I'm not interested in your secret organization, with it's ancient rules, hopping from one TV show fan site to another, making artwork and giving each other high-fives for being cool.

Your rules do not apply to me. I am not in your club. I'll stay here at Fireflyfans.net until Haken kicks me out, and I hope that day never comes.

I'm sorry
You don't get it, you seem like you'll never get it, and thats sad, becasue you will continue to allienate people because of it. Its not a club hon, its fandom, its the unwritten comunal rules by which fandom stays out of the way of the officials. Fandoms that don't follow this can get squashed. There are a few fandoms where the qwner has said they don't mind fanworks, but won't look at them to avoid issues, but thats not really par for the course, and Fox goes after people for pictures, much less anything else. So distribution is a touchy subject, and traditionally, a police force being impractical, thats been left up to the creater of the fan work, it being their neck and all and their creationg, but then again you don't get that. So i'm sorry that you don't understand nor wish to make the effort, but I know that this has gone beyond FF fandom because I am not a fan, but heard about this in another fandom( as in: Can you belive this guy? He must be nuts or something) I doubt anything would have convinced me to become one, I have enough fandoms already. But ive gone from not careing to thinking that if the show goes back on, i'll be staying out of the fandom. Its like the domlijha weirdos on DataLounge- way to messed up for me.

Regs

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Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:21 AM