Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian aircraft by JAYNEZTOWN

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Meanwhile, Russia says its planes stayed over Syrian territory.

I'm sure there are radar installations on both sides of the border as well as satellite data. Likely this will be handled by a high-level protest to ... the UN? .... where the available data will be adjudicated.

Turkey, like Kiev, wants to draw NATO into its own imbroglios because Turkey by itself doesn't have the military to challenge what Russia is doing in Syria. So Turkey will do anything provocative it thinks it can get away with TO DRAW NATO IN ON THE SIDE OF ISIL. And Turkey is STILL looking at Syria as part of its caliphate (sigh). Thhe USA (which in reality is NATO) needs to think about what it does next VERY CAREFULLY, because if we're not careful the USA military will be openly on the side if ISIL.

By now, everyone who reads this forum should know that Turkey is neck-deep in the creation of ISIL- weapons, materiel, and fresh jihadists leave Turkey, heading in one direction, while the wounded terrorists and ISIL oil head in the other. Ergogan's (Turkey's) role is to be ISIL's midwife, reliably sending Saudi and Qatari aid to jihadist terrorists in Syria.

---------------

MEANWHILE< while pondering Obama's schizophrenic military policies in the mideast, I've come to the conclusion that he is STILL following the "Assad must go" mantra, and hoping (still) that ISIL will do his dirty work for him without getting TOO strong and TOO international. In that, he's reflecting the will of Saudi Arabia, which is terrified of a nascent revival of Shia in Syria and Iraq.

SO USA warplanes have been pecking away at Assad's and Iraq's infrastructure, blowing up hospitals and power plants and other civilian infrastructure and studiously avoiding the 500-1000+ oil-tanker convoys, just chock full of ISIL oil.

I've heard a lot of interpretations of WHAT the USA warplanes are doing in Iraq ... "marking time", "containing ISIL", "herding ISIL" ... but it came to me in a blinding flash exactly what the USA was REALLY doing in Iraq:

USA warplanes are flying air cover for ISIL in Iraq. (Jost as Saudi warplanes are flying aircover for ISIL in Yemen.)

As long as the USA warplanes are there, nobody can do jack-shit about the oil tanker convoys and convoys of tanks and armed men. It's not that there are "no targets", or "Lack of coordination with ground troops", it's that the USA DOESN'T WANT to destroy ISIL and doesn't want anyone else too, either.

Well, if I've got this correct- and I think I do- then Obama should be impeached and tried for high treason.

-----------------------

Meanwhile, in Iraq, the USA was embarrassed by Putin's G20 statement about knowing who is selling and buying ISIL oil into bombing some of the convoys that have been visible for over a YEAR.

But just to be fair, the USA gave the drivers 1 45-minute warning, leafletting the convoy and buzzing it before finally dropping bombs on it almost an hour later.

"Get Out Of Your Trucks And Run Away": US Gives ISIS 45 Minute Warning On Oil Tanker Strikes
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-23/get-out-your-trucks-and-run-a
way-us-gives-isis-45-minute-warning-oil-tanker-strikes

As many have noted, that's more consideration than the USA gave the Medecins sans Frontieres hospital!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:51 AM

Turkey is NATO. Putin won't do shit and they were repeatedly warned. Russia has been violating Turkey's air space since it started flying in Syria. Turkey finally called Putin's bluff that he can do as he wishes and no one will do anything about it. Well, someone just did.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:05 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Worth pointing out that this Russian ground attack jet was nowhere near ISIS territory.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:38 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

A good article: Putin has misjudged a leader who is very much like himself - http://www.bloombergview.com/article...rkey-s-erdogan

Quote:
...Both Putin and Erdogan are strongmen, who treat domestic politics as a scorched earth battle for power. Russia's repeated humiliation of Erdogan before his audience at home, both by bombing Turkish clients just across the border and repeatedly breaching Turkish airspace, was therefore a high-risk strategy...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 12:42 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
So Turkey will do anything provocative it thinks it can get away with TO DRAW NATO IN ON THE SIDE OF ISIL.

This has nothing to do with ISIS. Russia was bombing Turkey's FSA proxies, miles and miles away from ISIS territory. The Russian plane may or may not have strayed into Turkish airspace; either way, Russia's propping up the despised Assad by bombing Turkey's ethnic Turkish FSA proxies was surely what motivated Turkey in pulling the trigger.

Russia's 'bomb all the rebels fighting murderous dictator Assad, not just ISIS' strategy is blowing up in its face.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 1:28 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Russia confirms death of soldier in rescue mission. FSA has released this video of a TOW (US-made anti-tank missile) strike on what it claims is a Russian helicopter, which might explain it:

Or if youtube link doesn't work RT has the same video up:
https://www.rt.com/news/323306-video-russia-helicopter-syria/

All right, who were the people who predicted that Putin's intervention in Syria would end disastrously? Step forward to collect your prizes.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 2:39 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Worth pointing out that this Russian ground attack jet was nowhere near ISIS territory.

Of course not, what with USA running coverage for ISIS with our planes < / snort-of-a-million-ironies >

I scrolled through what she wrote the first time, and only now have just read it...

She's lost her mind. Whatever she had for a mind before, is gone. I guess we should go easy on her - what with ISIS blowing Russian planes out of the sky, Turkey shooting them out the sky, the FSA blowing up Russian helicopters with US TOWs, Crimea without electricity for 2 days and counting, the EU just voting to rollover sanctions on Russia for another 6 months and the rouble at 65 to the dollar, these are tough times to be a Putin fangirl.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:39 PM

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

G, I hope not for #2.

Quote:
"...because Turkey by itself doesn't have the military to challenge what Russia is doing in Syria."

This is near the Russian equivalent of chanting "USA! USA!" No need to beat chest around here. None of the crap in this region is to be proud of. At the very best it's trying to clean up a damn mess. Turkey is the 2nd largest active NATO military (according to Wiki). For a country their size I think they could hold their own.

Also, we of all people don't need to blame a whole country like Turkey just 'cause their Pres and some of their government are assholes.
*cough*Bush Years*cough*

Quote:
"Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times."

Quote:
Russia says its planes stayed over Syrian territory.

I guess this needs to be solidified.

Some questions I'd eventually want answers to:

1. What was the flight path of the Russian jet?

2. Where were both planes when the F-16 pulled the trigger?

3. Where was the Russian plane when the F-16's weapon made contact with it?

There is a part of Turkey that sticks south into Syria near the Latakia province where the Russian plane crashed. Maybe the Russians were trying to cut across Turkey instead of going around.

Quote:
A deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters on a trip organised [sic] by Turkish authorities that his forces had shot both pilots dead as they descended.

"Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air," Alpaslan Celik said near the Syrian village of Yamadi, holding what he said was a piece of a pilot's parachute.

Ooh, personally I would've rather gone for a capture than a kill.

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Turkey claims...Turkey says ...

How's that Russian INVASION of Ukraine going that Kiev kept claiming ... and repeating ... and whining about?

Any evidence of an INVASION yet?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:33 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Turkey claims...Turkey says ...

How's that Russian INVASION of Ukraine going that Kiev kept claiming ... and repeating ... and whining about?

Any evidence of an INVASION yet?

Hmm. What with ISIS blowing Russian planes out of the sky, Turkey shooting them out the sky, the FSA blowing up Russian helicopters with US TOWs, Crimea without electricity for 2 days and counting, the EU just voting to rollover sanctions on Russia for another 6 months and the rouble at 65 to the dollar, these are tough times to be a Putin fangirl.

*hugs*

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Russia confirms death of soldier in rescue mission. FSA has released this video of a TOW (US-made anti-tank missile) strike on what it claims is a Russian helicopter, which might explain it:

Or if youtube link doesn't work RT has the same video up:
http://www.rt.com/news/323306-video-russia-helicopter-syria/

All right, who were the people who predicted that Putin's intervention in Syria would end disastrously? Step forward to collect your prizes.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:47 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

kpo

Oh let's see, the usual snark and avoiding the history I presented as a caution against accepting claims that are unsupported by evidence - especially claims made by people with an agenda.

Just the same old wet bot.

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Tuesday, November 24, 2015 11:28 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I think it's stalled until they get another plane."

Oh look, dumberer just posted.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 6:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This has nothing to do with ISIS. Russia was bombing Turkey's FSA proxies, miles and miles away from ISIS territory. The Russian plane may or may not have strayed into Turkish airspace; either way, Russia's propping up the despised Assad by bombing Turkey's ethnic Turkish FSA proxies was surely what motivated Turkey in pulling the trigger.

So it doesn't matter if the Russian plane strayed into Turkish airspace, Turkey was justified in shooting it down?

This is your usual hypocrisy at work again I see. You really don't care if "your side" follows the rules, or how many people "your side" kills, as long as "your side" wins. And as far as I can tell, "your side" includes ISIL.

I told you a month or so ago (By "you I mean "you" and your idiot friends collectively) that in a short while you would be cheering for ISIL. Well, you're there. You'll deny it, you probably don't even recognize it, but you're there.

And actually, this has everything to do with ISIL. WHO do you think is collecting all of that illegal ISIL oil on the TURKISH side of the border, hmmm....? You don't think that Erdogan has left all of those lovely oil revenues to be collected by just ANY enterprising Turkish middleman, do you?

Nope- all of that is run by his son, Bilal Erdogan.

The Erdogans are nothing if not hip-deep in ISIL. The guns going into Turkey (from Saudi Arabia and Qatar), the oil coming in the other direction, the ISIL fighters who wind up in Turkish hospitals or stopping by for a McDonald's represent an ally against "the hated" Assad and "the hated" Kurds, AND a significant source of revenue. YOU just haven't realized - yet- which side Turkey is really on in this fight. I want you to look at this map with understanding. Do you see the orange line (ISIL-controlled) along the Euphrates river, which stretches from Deir-al-Zhour thru Raqqa (the unofficial ISIL capital city) and continuing northwest? WHERE does it end up?

Oh, that's right- at the TURKISH BORDER. Now, that pinch-point has Kurds on both sides, and the ONLY reason why the Kurds did not take that remaining ground is because TURKEY bombed them. TURKEY has been funneling aid and material to ISIL all along.

Please firmly implant in your head that NATO MEMBER OR NOT, Turkey is FIRMLY on the side of ISIL.

Some have speculated that this shoot-down was in retaliation for all of those lost oil revenues ....

Was Erdogan’s son was behind the attack on the Su-24?
http://greeknewsondemand.com/2015/11/25/was-erdogans-son-was-behind-th
e-attack-on-the-su-24/

The Most Important Question About ISIS That Nobody Is Asking [Where do they get their money)?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-19/most-important-question-about
-isis-nobody-asking

Turkish President Erdogan seems allied with IS(IS) in War on Syrian Alawite Pres. Assad and Kurds
http://new.euro-med.dk/20150726-turkish-president-erdogan-seems-allied
-with-isis-in-war-on-syrian-alawite-pres-assad-and-kurds.php

Erdogan’s Daughter Joins ISIS
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/07/21/erdogans-daughter-joins-isis/

Get it in your heads that NATO MEMBER OR NOT, Turkey is FIRMLY on the side of ISIL.

Quote:
Russia's 'bomb all the rebels fighting murderous dictator Assad, not just ISIS' strategy is blowing up in its face.

And you, being so anti-Russian, are cheering this on, because you prefer a Libyan-Iraqi-Sudanese-Afghani-style power-vacuum clusterfuck, just chock-a-block swarming with ISIL?

Quote:
Worth pointing out that this Russian ground attack jet was nowhere near ISIS territory.

So what? Russia never promised to fight "only" ISIL, they said- quite plainly- that they were there supporting the government of Assad. AND THE UN AGREES WITH THEM.

Quote:
Of course not, what with USA running coverage for ISIS with our planes

I stand by what I wrote until events tell me otherwise. You need to be paying attention to what the USA DOES, not what Obama SAYS. Every indication is that the USA has been throttling back on its "attack" on ISIL ... with all of the command centers, explosive manufacturers, truck depots, oil convoys, and oil wells/teakettle refineries available, why has to USA been so remarkably INEFFECTIVE in fighting ISIL?

Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.

For you, KPO, it's VERY personal, It's so personal you've completely lost not only your reason but your ethics, assuming you ever had any. Degree by degree, you've turned into an ISIL-apologist.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 7:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I see in response that Russia is deploying its S-400 missile system to Syria. Up until now, the S-300 was as far as Russia would go, in terms of export (Iran). Until deployment, the Turkish border is under the watchful eye of a destroyer parked off the coast.

The USA weaseled out of this one by claiming that its agreement with Russia to deconflict the skies, signed just before this shootdown, does not apply to the USA's "allies" in this "coalition of the willing". In other words, the USA just made its allies' planes forfeit by denying that the deconfliction agreement applied to anyone but the USA.

I hope that the USA and Turkey, and ESPECIALLY those other "allies" realize that any foreign plane that sticks its nose across the Syrian border without permission is about to get it shot off.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:06 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Turkey claims...Turkey says ...

How's that Russian INVASION of Ukraine going that Kiev kept claiming ... and repeating ... and whining about?

Any evidence of an INVASION yet?

I think it's stalled until they get another plane.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:43 AM

Let's not forget Russia is fighting wars now on two fronts and the second is heating up.

Ukraine stops buying Russian gas, closes airspace

MOSCOW (AP) — Tensions between Russia and Ukraine escalated further on Wednesday as Ukraine decided to stop buying Russian natural gas — hoping to rely on supplies from other countries — and closed its airspace to its eastern neighbor.

http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2015/11/25/russia-halting-
gas-supplies-to-ukraine-n2085305

Ukraine closes its airspace to Russia

Crimea explosion leaves millions without power

Alexander Novak, Russia's energy minister, has accused the Ukrainian authorities of deliberately refusing to help rebuild the power lines, which were blown up by unknown saboteurs.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/151125081200873.html

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I see in response that Russia is deploying its S-400 missile system to Syria. Up until now, the S-300 was as far as Russia would go, in terms of export (Iran). Until deployment, the Turkish border is under the watchful eye of a destroyer parked off the coast.

The USA weaseled out of this one by claiming that its agreement with Russia to deconflict the skies, signed just before this shootdown, does not apply to the USA's "allies" in this "coalition of the willing". In other words, the USA just made its allies' planes forfeit by denying that the deconfliction agreement applied to anyone but the USA.

I hope that the USA and Turkey, and ESPECIALLY those other "allies" realize that any foreign plane that sticks its nose across the Syrian border without permission is about to get it shot off.

Just to be clear SIG, you support Russia, Iran and Assad in Syria and are against what America is doing?

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:54 AM

BYTEMITE

This is all so stupid. I'm starting to think all the countries involved in this mess actually want a WW3.

Tomorrow I'm going to cook a turkey, and think of Turkey. Dumbest political blunder I've seen in a while.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 12:19 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Just to be clear SIG, you support Russia, Iran and Assad in Syria and are against what America is doing?

Just to be clear, THUGR, you support the USA and it's ISIL-allied "partners" destroying YET ANOTHER nation, destined to be filled with jihadi-loving terrorists?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 12:19 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
So it doesn't matter if the Russian plane strayed into Turkish airspace, Turkey was justified in shooting it down?

This is your usual hypocrisy at work again I see. You really don't care if "your side" follows the rules

You're making shit up again. But speaking of hypocrisy, how come Russia is justified in protecting ethnic Russians outside its borders, but Turkey is not justified protecting ethnic Turks outside its borders, from Russian planes bombing them?

Quote:
I told you a month or so ago (By "you I mean "you" and your idiot friends collectively) that in a short while you would be cheering for ISIL.

Another brilliant Signy prediction. I'll add it to the predictions thread, thanks.

Quote:
Please firmly implant in your head that NATO MEMBER OR NOT, Turkey is FIRMLY on the side of ISIL.

Not the first murky, complex picture that you view in absolute black and white. Second behind Turkey in ISIS oil purchases of course, is the Assad regime. Does that mean that Assad is firmly on the side of ISIS? And by extension Putin?

Quote:
Some have speculated that this shoot-down was in retaliation for all of those lost oil revenues

Ooh crackpot internet speculation! Let me take notes.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So it doesn't matter if the Russian plane strayed into Turkish airspace, Turkey was justified in shooting it down? This is your usual hypocrisy at work again I see. You really don't care if "your side" follows the rules - SIGNY

You're making shit up again.

No, I'm just referring directly to YOUR STATEMENTS.

Quote:
But speaking of hypocrisy, how come Russia is justified in protecting ethnic Russians outside its borders, but Turkey is not justified protecting ethnic Turks outside its borders, from Russian planes bombing them?

It's not, and I'm not in support of that policy. OTOH, it's not as if ethnic Russians are fighting terrorist wars either.

Quote:
I told you a month or so ago (By "you I mean "you" and your idiot friends collectively) that in a short while you would be cheering for ISIL.- SIGNY

Another brilliant Signy prediction. I'll add it to the predictions thread, thanks.- KOP

It's already come true, so too late.

Quote:
Please firmly implant in your head that NATO MEMBER OR NOT, Turkey is FIRMLY on the side of ISIL.- SIGNY

Not the first murky, complex picture that you view in absolute black and white.=KOP

Oh, bullshit, you moron. There are just way too many documented links between Turkey and ISIL... the supply line/open border from Turkey to ISIL in Syria is common knowledge (to everyone excpet you), Turkey allows fighters across it border and both directions, treats ISIL-wounded, supplies arms and buys oil, colludes on its terror attacks and uses USA-supplied arms to bomb Kurds (fighting ISIL) instead of fighting terrorists. Are you nucking futz? Well, yeah, you are.

Quote:
Second behind Turkey in ISIS oil purchases of course, is the Assad regime.

I call bullshit. I doubt you can find a reliable reference for that ANYWHERE. As far as I can tell, much of the oil is being purchased by Israel

Quote:
Some have speculated that this shoot-down was in retaliation for all of those lost oil revenues-SIGNY

Ooh crackpot internet speculation! Let me take notes.-KOP

Good, it's about time you learned something!

And just remember, NATO member or not, TURKEY is FIRMLY embedded with ISIL.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 5:55 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
No, I'm just referring directly to YOUR STATEMENTS.

Is this bad reading comprehension skills, or are you just plain hallucinating? Go on then, show me 'directly' where I said that Turkey was justified in shooting down a Russian plane outside of its territory. You should be able to do it with a direct quote and NO editing or editorialising.

Quote:
There are just way too many documented links between Turkey and ISIL...

Turkey has had many undeniable and troubling links with IS, it's true. Whether Turkey has a soft spot for IS, whether Turkey thinks it can control and use IS like Pakistan and the Taliban, whether Turkey really wants the cheap black market oil for domestic supply, whether Turkey opposes Assad so much that it will support every non-Kurdish rebel group no matter how vile, whether Turkey wants to see Islamic State as the single victor in control of Syria... These are interesting and important questions for adults to consider. I wouldn't worry your crazy little head about them though. You just stick to your 'US/NATO = Great Satan' mantra.

Quote:
I call bullshit. I doubt you can find a reliable reference for that ANYWHERE

Strange for someone who reviews media so widely! Oh well here you are then - reports on Assad's oil, gas and electricity purchases from IS (us Ctrl-F to find the relevant sections):

http://www.businessinsider.com/revealed-the-oil-middleman-between-the-
syrian-regime-and-isis-2015-3?IR=T
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92f4e036-6b69-11e5-aca9-d87542bf8673.html#ax
zz3sXjsQOgY
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/world/middleeast/the-militants-movin
g-in-on-syria-and-iraq.html?hp&_r=1
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isi
s-terrorists-warplane-analysis

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:
Just to be clear SIG, you support Russia, Iran and Assad in Syria and are against what America is doing?
Just to be clear, THUGR, you support the USA and it's ISIL-allied "partners" destroying YET ANOTHER nation, destined to be filled with jihadi-loving terrorists?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

I support the coalition of nations that is against Assad staying in power and defeating DAESH. Yes the coalition led by the United States.

Again I ask you, do you support the two nation coalition of Russia and Iran. Every one here knows you do. Your being unwilling to acknowledge it is just another example of you not standing by your convictions. If you won't SIG, why the fuck should anyone else.

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Wednesday, November 25, 2015 6:12 PM

Quote.. SIG

"I hope that the USA and Turkey, and ESPECIALLY those other "allies" realize that any foreign plane that sticks its nose across the Syrian border without permission is about to get it shot off."

My response

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 7:55 AM

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:
Just to be clear SIG, you support Russia, Iran and Assad in Syria and are against what America is doing?
Just to be clear, THUGR, you support the USA and it's ISIL-allied "partners" destroying YET ANOTHER nation, destined to be filled with jihadi-loving terrorists?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

I support the coalition of nations that is against Assad staying in power and defeating DAESH. Yes the coalition led by the United States.

Again I ask you, do you support the two nation coalition of Russia and Iran. Every one here knows you do. Your being unwilling to acknowledge it is just another example of you not standing by your convictions. If you won't SIG, why the fuck should anyone else.

CLUSTER! FUCK!

I do not want to be posting about this shit on my day off. I'd rather be gaming, building things (everythingisawesome!), or, hell, washing my dishes! But there's waaay too much crap going on that needs clarified.

In no particular order 'cause I'm not sure there is one.

- Erdogan, the President and leader of military of Turkey is a religious fundie oppressive asshole that likes IS and the USA (WTF! Conflict of interest much?)? Assad, the President and leader of military of Syria is a secular oppressive asshole that likes Russia and Iran. Both governments of Turkey and Syria are supposed to be secular. Which Pres is actually breaking the most rules? If we want to help clean up this world, we should make damn sure our allies are playing the right game.

- Assad is near about where Saddam was. Asshole they are, unlike how we actually dealt with Saddam, we shouldn't remove just now, 'cause there just might be another POWER VACUUM. Also, IIRC Assad didn't attack us. If we even have any allies in Syria (the Independence Rebels or whatever), they aren't significant enough to handle all the militant groups. Their weapons would just cycle back to the real bad peoples hands (IS and the Al-Q off shoot in Syria). Assad's human rights violations on Wiki are a surprisingly not long list. If were going to deal with the bad stuff, then we should do the worst first, and that's IS.

- If Erdogan stepped down and a more moderate took over that might HELP A BIT!

- If the Russians were using the exact same flight path each time, then the jets were crossing a piece of Turkey only at most 3 miles across. Depending on how fast they were going, they might not have had time to notice details of the land, if they were even looking for it. If I was doing this accidentally, it might be because I'm focused on the lay of the land to the left in Syria.

- Did the Russian jets' flight paths really NEED to loop that far north so close to Turkey. I think they may have thought it safer if they flew over known Kurdish lands, than the lands held by "unknowns".

- Countries should have the sovereignty to protect their airspace, However is shooting down the plane then murdering the pilots when they're most vulnerable, the smartest thing to do if you're not at direct war with them? Future repercussions people! Also, show some damn mercy sometimes!

- If I were I Russian Pres bent on regional domination (HY-PATHETIC-ALLY), and wanted my warships to have free reign of at least the Mediterranean, I would definitely need to be able to get through the Turkish Straits relatively unhindered. The ports in Crimea would be pretty useless if the ships couldn't go anywhere. I could see a Russian military interest in provoking Turkey to be closer to justified in later actions.

- In this mess, or at all, we don't need to be pissing off Iran when, although we still don't entirely trust each other, with trying to broker a nuclear deal, we've been closest to peaceful non-sanctiony relations for as far back as ANYONE can remember. If taking out IS brings us closer together, then hell yeah!

(This is getting kinda fun. I'm typing something and not quite sure of reality, so go look it up, and I learn something! YAY! Giddy me!)

- SHIT! We were so close a few months ago to have good relations with Iran and Russia with the nuclear deal. WTF happened?! Damn republican warhacks [sic], Military Industrial Complex (MIC), and the Christian Fundies (the Bibles and guns mentality): they are all in it together (ok, that's a mass generalization, but there are ties).

- The Military isn't necessarily the same thing as the MIC. Yeah, there of course can be connections, such as, for a hypothetical example a high ranking general with a monetary investment in the MIC. But remember the Pentagon doesn't go with that all the time; even stating they don't need so many of a certain thing that Congress is trying to sell them.

- I trust our military intel a bit more, with less heapings of salt, than I trust the CIA and other agencies. We helped end TWO world wars with military intelligence, while the CIA can't do anything but start them (oh, AND they can prolong them).

- Exactly how accurate are the bombing campaigns of the Allies and the Coalition? (Oh, shit! it's the Freelancer backstory!) Are they missing their IS and hitting civilians?

(Sound is a little delayed, but I think that it gives it a good light-faster-than-sound feel.)

- I don't think the problems in this region can't be solved all at once. When we try to do that, shit gets worse. We have to work together to slowly peel apart this onion-like-problem, layer by layer. We have to change our strategy according to what is actually changing in the world. As bad as Russia might seem, and self motivated they would be (...Motives are rarely unselfish), they are inadvertently trying to go after IS; as asshole as Assad is, he's against IS.

- Remember. The USA isn't the only country with a MIC. Other countries' might not be as big as ours, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to keep the shity chaos going so even they can still get a payout.

Oh crap. I think I've reached that point where I've written so much, I can't remember what I haven't covered. Seriously, which aspect did I forget?

I think I just killed 4 hours! DAMN!

Avoid WW3 - FEEL THE BERN!

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:16 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
*snort* That's going to leave a mark.

What doesn't kill her makes her crazier.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:34 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Assad is near about where Saddam was.

Long past it, I would say. Certainly in terms of civilians killed.

Quote:
Did the Russian jets' flight paths really NEED to loop that far north so close to Turkey.

This is the thing, the whole thing is really arrogant and provocative to Turkey. Bombing ethnic Turks, armed groups that Turkey is supporting, right on the edge of the Turkish border? When Turkey is a NATO state and has a nationalist president? This was complete idiocy from the Russians, and they ignored all the warnings.

Quote:
they are inadvertently trying to go after IS; as asshole as Assad is, he's against IS.

Actually it's complicated. IS has been a boon for Assad, as everyone is terrified of removing him now. There are plenty of reports that Assad has worked with IS, bought oil/gas off them, had truces with them while he's focussed on attacking the other rebels... At best IS are his 'convenient' enemies, at worst they have an ongoing, cooperative relationship. Look at where Assad's main military offensives are, and where Russian planes are bombing - are they targeted against IS areas? The hell they are. They're against the FSA and other anti-Assad rebels.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 9:09 AM

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Did the Russian jets' flight paths really NEED to loop that far north so close to Turkey.

This is the thing, the whole thing is really arrogant and provocative to Turkey. Bombing ethnic Turks, armed groups that Turkey is supporting, right on the edge of the Turkish border? When Turkey is a NATO state and has a nationalist president? This was complete idiocy from the Russians, and they ignored all the warnings.

*You'd think a skilled enough pilot could pull off a loop-de-loop or some other maneuver to narrow the turning radius.

It could even be Russia is trying to do a bit like we did to get into WWI; take an accidental hit (Lusitania) publicly, then a few more (merchant marine ships) to seal the deal.

*

Quote:
Quote:
they are inadvertently trying to go after IS; as asshole as Assad is, he's against IS.

Actually it's complicated. IS has been a boon for Assad, as everyone is terrified of removing him now. There are plenty of reports that Assad has worked with IS, bought oil/gas off them, had truces with them while he's focussed on attacking the other rebels... At best IS are his 'convenient' enemies, at worst they have an ongoing, cooperative relationship. Look at where Assad's main military offensives are, and where Russian planes are bombing - are they targeted against IS areas? The hell they are. They're against the FSA and other anti-Assad rebels.

I was trying to make it too simple. Silly me - damn reality.

*ETA

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:44 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There's nothing quite like shooting at ejected pilots as they float down helplessly ....

Allahu Akbar!

In the Now claims that one of the "Turkmen" in Syria (interviewed by CNN and FOX News, as you can see from the microphones) is actually the son of a Turkish mayor

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Assad is near about where Saddam was.

Long past it, I would say. Certainly in terms of civilians killed.

Quote:
Did the Russian jets' flight paths really NEED to loop that far north so close to Turkey.

This is the thing, the whole thing is really arrogant and provocative to Turkey. Bombing ethnic Turks, armed groups that Turkey is supporting, right on the edge of the Turkish border? When Turkey is a NATO state and has a nationalist president? This was complete idiocy from the Russians, and they ignored all the warnings.

Quote:
they are inadvertently trying to go after IS; as asshole as Assad is, he's against IS.

Actually it's complicated. IS has been a boon for Assad, as everyone is terrified of removing him now. There are plenty of reports that Assad has worked with IS, bought oil/gas off them, had truces with them while he's focussed on attacking the other rebels... At best IS are his 'convenient' enemies, at worst they have an ongoing, cooperative relationship. Look at where Assad's main military offensives are, and where Russian planes are bombing - are they targeted against IS areas? The hell they are. They're against the FSA and other anti-Assad rebels.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Hey KPO, It's nice to have some others here who are paying attention to what is going on. Most don't and that is why you just had to post what you did. If those posting here do not already know what is contained in your post, then they are ignorant of the facts and should spend a bit more time researching this.

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Thursday, November 26, 2015 4:48 PM

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Thanks for all of this. I think your suggestions are great... *if* we were the only ones involved and no one else would do anything crazy! But, it's the Middle East, reminds me a little of this:

https://youtube/F2GIirKPy6g

It's fun to try and assign real people to some of the characters. Oil might be the beer. Assad? Putin? Obama?

Chuckly funny!

Oh, if only everyone involved in the Mideast was armed with only sugar glass beer bottles and breakaway furniture.

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Saturday, November 28, 2015 4:05 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I've been trying to figure out what makes sense.

Turkey's original claims were that it warned the Russian jet 10 times in 5 minutes (5 minutes was a detail added 2 days later, but I'll include it here) by radio before shooting it down.

I've done some reading and the things I've found out are that before you consider shooting down a plane it must pose a threat. The protocol is to warn off the plane by radio, then establish visual contact in case radio communication is broken, and then either fire a warning shot across the flight path OR launch warning flares from the ground.

Russia filed the Su-24's flight plan with the US, and it obviously didn't pose a threat to Turkey.

Regarding the supposed incursion, though it's extremely small, near the Mediterranean end of the Turkey/ Syrian border is a small blip, that I estimated from this map is roughly 2 - 3km (1.2 - 1.8 miles) across. It's that blip that Turkey claimed Syria 'invaded'. This map illustrates the minuscule scale of the alleged airspace incursion.

And here it is, blown up, where (according to Turkey), the claimed incursion flight path is about 2 miles wide.

The maximum speed of an Su-24 is 815 mph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24. Assuming it was flying at half speed, according to Turkey's claims the Su-24 spent a maximum of 18 seconds in Turkey's airspace (if the Su-24 was going at top speed it would have been 9 seconds).

Turkey claims it warned the Su-24 10 times in 5 minutes. 5 minutes at half-speed is 33 miles (and at top speed is 66 miles). Where in the flight path that TURKEY claimed was the jet 33 (or 66) miles outside of Syrian territory and heading toward it? The maximum distance away from Turkey's territory that TURKEY claimed the jet was, was a bit over 6 miles.

Did Turkey warn the jet to stay out of it's territory 10 times over 5 minutes? I don't see how. The maximum time the jet could have been moving toward Turkey's territory and then over it is roughly 1 minute, 12 seconds. Compare that to the claim of 5 minutes.

The next part of the story was that Turkey's independent fighters shot the pilot who had ejected from a disabled aircraft and was in the process of parachuting back to earth. That's not something I would have advertised, as it's a war crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists They also admitted killing one of the crew of the rescue helicopter, that eventually did pick up the navigator. I haven't looked it up specifically, but I imagine it's a war crime too, as the helicopter is - pretty obviously - not a troop-carrying aircraft.

Until the navigator was rescued, there was no one to tell the other side of the story regarding radio warnings, visual contact, or other warning signals - ie, the side of the story that that didn't happen. Honestly - the only reason I can imagine the Turkeys persistently, repeatedly tried so HARD to kill the pilot and navigator BOTH is that dead men tell no tales. They didn't want another story out there.

MEANWHILE - as always, there's no evidence for any of Turkey's claims. The Turkeys released a recording that they CLAIMED was made at the time, but with no time-stamp or other corroborating evidence. And, JUST LIKE MH17, the US jumped in right away to say 'we know what the Turkeys claim is true!' but then provided zero - nada, zilch, zip, goose-egg - evidence. And since then - just like MH17 - the US has been backing down from the claim, saying it's between Russia and Turkey to figure out what happened.

You know, with GPS satellites, and aerial surveying, a lot of the conflicting claims, like where the Russian plane came down, can be easily resolved. But just like Kiev's claims that they destroyed a Russian 'invasion' - but then couldn't provide ANY photos, parts, bodies, IDs or prisoners - anything at all - as evidence - I don't expect any evidence to back up Turkey's claims, either.

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Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:05 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, I've been thinking about this some more.

What Germany should have learned, what Europe should have learned, what Turkey should have learned after Ukraine, is that the US is not your friend.

What happened in Ukraine? The disgruntled oligarchs who were out of the gravy train, and the Nazis, were encouraged to find common cause and stage a coup. The US was going to be their friend, their ally, their support. It was going to make it all turned out all right. And what did the US want? Cover (with plausible deniability) to embroil Russia in a war. What the US wanted out of Ukraine had nothing to do with Ukraine at all. It was all about Russia. (As our local propagandists so helpfully focus on. So they ARE good for something after all!)
And when it all went - sideways - and Ukraine became embroiled in a messy civil war, and the economy fell apart, and the oligarchs got control of a lot of nothing, and Russia FINALLY cut off the gas for non-payment --- what did the US do then? Give food aid? Shelter aid? Medical aid? Provide energy resources? Forgive the loans? No. It extended the IMF loan to further bleed the country dry - a la Greece - and quietly slunk away. Our work here, the US said, is done. Because Ukraine never needed to be a 'successful' country to serve the US purpose.

As for Germany - Merkel was always bucking the BUSINESS community over the sanctions, because Germany had a robust trade with Russia. And sanctions were always going to hurt Germany more than they hurt Russia due simply to the relative size of their economies and resources. Germany is now facing the loss of an additional 300,000 jobs by extending the sanctions, along with the ones they've already lost.
And, as far as I can tell, the only reason for Germany to accept the refugees in consideration of Turkey would have been at the insistence of the US. And that, at this point, was political suicide for Merkel.
But the German economy or the political fortunes of Merkel were never a consideration for the US in its covert war against Russia.

So you have to wonder, (at least, I do), why in god's name would Turkey want to pick a fight with Russia? Yanno, look at the two: Turkey v Russia. It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I wonder what the US said to Turkey. We have your back? We're behind you all the way?
It reminds me of a card, where there's crusaders on horseback in a mass change, except one is way, way, waaaay out in front, and the rest are tiny specks in the background. And the one in front, his thought balloon says "I'm fucked".
When the US says they're behind you all the way you probably need to be asking just how FAR behind that would be.

All this adds up to the US using its dupes to engage in proxy anti-Russia warfare.

What a stupid thing to do. What an even stupider thing to agree to.

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Saturday, November 28, 2015 10:28 PM

ELVISCHRIST

In Russian Thanksgiving

Turkey shoots YOU!

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 1:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sultan Erdogan jails three journalists and another is killed on live TV while they are reporting on Turkey's governmental support of ISIL.

Meanwhile, ISIL oil is being shipped thru Turkey and being laundered in ship-to-ship offshore transfers, or by Israel.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-28/isis-oil-trade-full-frontal-r
aqqas-rockefellers-bilal-erdogan-krg-crude-and-israel-c

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 3:39 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You two must WANT Russia to fail in its effort to destroy a barbarous group of people who want to set up a brutal, non-democratically-elected sharia government.

You two must be supporting the ISIS coup.

Duly noted.

Don't forget to send ISIS money and make it official. Because, having Russia lose and ISIS win - heh hehee! that would be so funny! And also, apparently, you're all for it.

Am I right?

;)

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:45 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Russian pilot's body recovered from Syria.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/30/uk-mideast-crisis-turkey-russ
ia-pilot-idUKKBN0TI08220151130

Turkey recovered the body of a Russian pilot from northern Syria and presented it to Russian diplomats on Sunday, five days after shooting down his warplane in an incident that wrecked relations between two of the main powers involved in Syria's war.

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:50 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

it was extremely unlikely they issued ten warnings in five minutes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/turkey-shoots-down-russian-p
lane-astrophysicists-say-both-official-accounts-are-partially-a6752741.html

Turkey said the plane was in their airspace for 17 seconds but the physicists concluded that when travelling at a speed of 980 km/h (609 m/h) the plane would have crossed over in just seven seconds.

From this they said it was extremely unlikely they issued ten warnings in five minutes because the plane travelling at that speed could cross 80km (50m) in 80 seconds.

They said: “How could the Turkish airforce predict that the Russian jets were about to enter Turkish airspace?

“Military jets are very agile, and in theory the Russian jets could have turned at the last moment to avoid Turkish airspace.

“The warnings issued to the Russian pilots were mere speculation at the moment they were made.”

But they don’t think Russian authorities are being entirely honest either.

Russia has claimed the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit and it was actively trying to avoid Turkish airspace.

They explained that at that speed: “A change of course of 90 degrees can only be achieved with an object that’s many times heavier or faster than the jet.”

They concluded: “According to our calculations, it is clear that both the story of Turkey and Russia should be taken with a grain of salt.

“Estimates limit the violation of Turkish airspace to a maximum of 10s. Russia's claims not correspond to the laws of mechanics.”

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:58 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Russian and Syrian special forces free second pilot of a Russian warplane

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Tu
rkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html

Turkey shooting down plane was 'planned provocation' says Russia, as rescued pilot claims he had no warning - latest
Russian and Syrian special forces free second pilot of a Russian warplane shot down by Turkey, says defence minister

The Kremlin accused Ankara of conspiring in advance to “ambush” the SU-24 jet as it carried out a bombing mission against rebel groups near the Turkish-Syrian border on Tuesday morning.

The pilot, Lt Col Oleg Peshkov, was shot dead by rebels as he parachuted to earth. The navigator, Capt Konstanin Murakhin, survived, despite initial reports that he too had been killed.

He was rescued from behind rebel lines by a Russian-Syrian mission. Speaking publicly for the first time this evening (see video below), Capt Murakhin denied that his aircraft had entered Turkish airspace "even for a single second."

He also rejected the Turkish claim that its F-16 had repeatedly warned the Russian jet before opening fire.

"There have been no warnings whatsoever," said Capt Murakhtin, who added that he wanted to keep flying missions from the base "to pay them back for my commander".

In response, the Turkish authorities released what they said was a recording of the warnings being issued.

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 6:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Tu
rkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html

US official: Russian jet was not in Turkish airspace when it was hit

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Sunday, November 29, 2015 6:51 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, the Turkeys could NOT have warned the jet 10 times in 5 minutes, the Russian jet could NOT have been in Turkey's airspace more than 7 seconds (if it was at all), the Russian jet was NOT in Turkey's airspace when it was hit, the pilot's body was NOT on Turkey's soil, and the navigator was NOT rescued from Turkey's soil.

At the very least that means that Turkey's story about warning the jet 10 times in 5 minutes is bogus, and that the pilot and rescue copter were fired on from Turkey while they were over or in Syria.

And I've noticed that as the narrative falls apart, the story is disappearing out of the news. I had to google everything specifically to get information.

Meanwhile, Obama is calling for extended sanctions because ... yanno ........ Russia. . . . . Assad. . . . . . . . . Putin. The random propaganda of the day.

As for Russia's story, I have no idea what it is, since I don't actually read RT. Though maybe I should. It can't make LESS sense or be MORE propagandized than western media.

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Saturday, December 12, 2015 5:01 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The black box from the downed Russian military jet has been recovered. Russia wants it opened in the presence of, and examined by, an international team. That should clear up any differences about whether or not it was in Turkish airspace.

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/12/08/440915/Russia-Moscow-Su24-Turk
ey-Syria-Putin

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Saturday, December 19, 2015 9:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The black box was opened in the presence of an international team.
http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?fromval=1&cid=22&am
p;frid=22&eid=245529
The Russian military have invited experts from 14 nations to work on the flight recorder of the Russian Su-24 bomber, but only two of them accepted their invitations, the Defense Ministry reported, before unsealing the device.
The experts who agreed to participate in the study of the flight recorder, which is to provide further evidence into the highly controversial incident, come from the UK and China, Dronov told the media.

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-su-24-jet-attack-moscow-has-proof-downe
d-jet-posed-no-threat-turkey-black-box-2231646
However, many specialists refused to participate in the investigation citing various reasons, excluding only Liu Chang Wei from China and Jonathan Gillespie from the United Kingdom," Dronov said, according to Tass.

Reports are the black box was damaged.
http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-su-24-jet-attack-moscow-has-proof-downe
d-jet-posed-no-threat-turkey-black-box-2231646
Three of eight chips from Su-24 jet's flight data recorder were completely damaged due to the Turkish F-16 missile strike, Sputnik News reported citing the Russian Aerospace Forces.

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Monday, December 21, 2015 10:19 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Pretty much all reports say the same thing: 13 of the 16 chips were destroyed, the remaining 3 were damaged. Apparently they're going to x-ray the 3 chips, I presume to see what internal conducting lines have been broken.

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Monday, January 11, 2016 3:12 PM