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I'm sure there were those who couldn't leave, by reason of disability or perhaps being held hostage by the terrorists who had taken over Grozny.- SIGNY

Even if that were true, and I notice you provide no evidence, that makes it ok for Putin to go ahead and carpet bomb the whole city?

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For the terrorists in Grozny- like those who killed 200 young schoolchildren in Beslan- SIGNY
Any tears for the hundreds if not thousands of children killed by Putin's carpet bombing of Grozny?

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That way, we could tease apart answers to "Who is a terrorist?" and "When is violence morally acceptable?"- SIGNY

You and I have both been on these boards a long time and I've had these discussions with you before. You change your definition of 'terrorism' from post to post, and your position on separatism and national borders and the right of self-determination changes with whichever way the wind is blowing (or rather whichever way supports Russia, and damns the USA). In 2014 when Russia was annexing Crimea and fomenting separatist war in Ukraine you were all for separatism, and peoples' right to self-determination. But in 2015 when international attention switched to Syria, and the [popular] IMPORTED Sunni uprising there, you immediately came out with your firm belief that Russia's campaign to crush the rebels was the best thing ever.

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We can debate principles of democracy, national sovereignty, terrorism, the right to self-determination etc, but in 6 months time your positions will have completely changed to be in line with Russia's latest war.

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Why debate or have a discussion with someone whose principles are completely fluid?

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Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such priniciples as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way. It should be noted that different Western countries have different stances on accepting Kosovo's independence or not.

In the case of Kosovo ethnic Serbs see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman control. But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans to live again under Serbian rule, given the way the Serbian government treated them in the 1990s.

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And what was your response?
Signy (2014):
And, on what grounds are these movements to be "considered"? Because as far as I can tell, the metric that you apply is: pro-western= good, not pro-western=bad. All of your blah blah blah about history and such is so much rationalization. You don't have a rigorous, well-thought-out view that you could apply equally to all situations; so you'll just grab whatever excuse you need to justify whatever you want to see happen.
In other words, you have a purely self-centered, exceptionalist* view of the world...

And you went on like that, completely ignoring everything I said and eventually quoting some bullshit RT story about mass graves of raped and murdered victims in a poor attempt at false equivalence.

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If you can tell me you've grown as a person since this lazy, self-indulgent rant, then maybe we can start again with the discussion. If not, then no thank you.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
YOUR problem, KPO (and G, and THUGR) is that you lose sight of your goals, because you really don't know what you want. You use words like "freedom" or maybe "democracy" or "human rights" or "tyranny", bomb your way thru a campaign and ignore the carnage at your feet as you go wading through one nation after another.

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Wow - what a whack job. I have never seen any of the 3 posters mentioned do or say any of those things in that context. Are you sure you have the right forum?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about hose mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about those mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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SIG

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about hose mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh? [/QOUTE]

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Me

Again it is too funny. You just pointed out my lack of ( writing skills ) in another thread. I said I could do that to you time and time again and your next post proves me right. It should be those graves asshole not hose graves.

As for the tragedy of mass grave sites, any thing you post as to who is responsible is suspect.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just who is this rant above me directed at 1kiki. Or is it just another example of you subjectively posting to deflect from something else?

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"Truly wondrous hypocrisy from someone who howls in outrage at relatively small numbers of civilian casualties killed by Ukraine's forces."

I was replying to this, and quoted it in my post. Did you post it? Then why are you confused about who it's directed to? Once again leading me to question your literacy, intelligence and honesty. I know. You pick. Tell me which one is faulty.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about those mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the phrase "time and time again" that YOU posted ...I actually feel sorry for you. You do seem to have less than average mental skills. But I'm thinking you grew up with the idea you could never admit to any deficiencies or errors.

Son, the more you insist that you're right when you're so clearly wrong, the worse you look. Just sayin' ...

But enough about you. Maybe someone will have something TOPICAL to say.

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check the G thread. I just corrected one of your posts. Yep, time and time again if I wish to. I cut and pasted it below.

You guys are just to easy.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Troll, much?

Because you don't address topics. Nope, everything you post is personal insult. You are the definition of a troll.

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Me

Below is something you just posted to someone else who posts here. And you suggest I am the one who conducts personal attacks. I've said it before and I'll say it again now. You and SIG are complete assholes.

By the way, it should be ( is a personal insult )

Hey SIG, SIMPLE

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1kiki

Let's see. You're angry because - even though you haven't bothered with the news coming out of Turkey in YEARS - you THINK Russia MIGHT have had something to do with Erdogan taking over a critical newspaper? THAT'S the source of your rage against evil?

Sounds pretty insane - oh, and inane, ignorant, and poor white trash-y - to me.

BTW, I'm not criticizing your family. No, it's directed at you personally because you're the asshole human you claim to be better than. And, don't fool yourself into thinking that your family doesn't know about this side of you. Believe me, people know. Even if you think you're doing a great job hiding it.

I just feel sorry for them. Jeez, no wonder your husband disappears into video games. He's trying to get away from you.

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Feel sorry for yourself 1kiki. You are one sick bitch.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Troll, much?

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It's been real fun spanking you today 1kiki

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I've been very accommodating to wishy-washy. See, she likes things all personal-like. Just like you do. So I just give her what she wants.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60414

Are you that desperate to prove me wrong?

Oh yeah, you are ... that's why you stalk everything I say with that pious act.


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60398

They have no notion of "good" or "bad"... you moron.

When you stop being so stupid, I'll be nicer. I'm tired of coddling people who don't have a clue...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58636

If every single person on this planet was addicted and useless WOULD YOU FEEL ANYTHING???

If this thought doesn't make you sick, there's nothing left of humanKIND in you.

Guess I shouldn't notice or care that CHILDREN ARE BEING STARVED AND STOMPED TO DEATH. OVER A GAME. Don't say a word because people will die and kill doing lotsa dumb things???? And they do it because "life sucks"?
FUCK THAT.
FUCK THEM.

WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Jesus Fucking Christ, it's like talking to a damn ten year old!

My problem is you... and the rest of this planet.
You have been watching the news for sixty years or so and you still have no idea what is going on.

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Yep, suggestive ranting. I OWN YOU BITCH!

Like I said, it's been fun spanking you today.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about those mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Just who is this rant above me directed at 1kiki.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
Just who is this rant above me directed at 1kiki.

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It appears to be an illogical rant based off a mis-comprehension of something I wrote. But honestly who knows.

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KIEV — Dutch voters’ resounding rejection of an EU-Ukraine Association Agreement has sent shockwaves through Ukraine’s political establishment, exacerbating the country’s already deep political crisis.

President Petro Poroshenko tried to put a positive spin on Wednesday’s non-binding referendum, in which more than 60 percent of Dutch voters came out against ratifying the trade deal between Brussels and Kiev.

“We will continue our movement towards the European Union,” Poroshenko said during an official visit to Japan.

But the president is under siege from all sides, including the country’s Western backers, who are growing frustrated with its ongoing political disarray and lack of movement on deep, systemic reform. For them, the referendum is yet another blow.

“This result is a personal verdict to Petro Poroshenko rather than to the country, the war, or people of the Netherlands,” wrote Mustafa Nayyem, an MP with Poroshenko’s own political bloc. “This is a verdict to the president of the country, who, despite the will of people and his own declarations, has chosen the ‘elite’ and oligarchs as partners.”

It is not clear what the referendum outcome means for the EU-Ukraine agreement. Of the EU’s 28 members, the Netherlands is the last government to ratify the deal — which already went into full effect in January. The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, said the ratification could not automatically go forward, and he would now have to consult his government.

If the Dutch rejection leads to changes in the association agreement, that would be an enormous setback for Ukraine’s pro-Europe camp, which views the deal as one of the main anchors tying them to the EU.

For them, the agreement is something they paid for in blood: Two years ago pro-European protesters took to the streets, in part because Ukraine’s then-president, Viktor Yanukovych, balked at signing it at the last moment. [MAYBE BECAUSE IT'S A BAD DEAL?]

Yanukovych fled the country, and more than 100 people were killed in clashes in Kiev — and he was replaced by an ostensibly pro-reform and pro-EU administration.

Many Ukrainians are still very much pro-Europe — if only because this is seen as the main alternative to Russian pressure — but the mood is definitely souring. When the referendum results were made known, social media were full of comments viewing the Dutch voters’ decision as something of a betrayal.

Among commentators, the sense is that the vote comes on the heels of a general drift in EU policy towards Eastern Europe and Ukraine in particular. Kiev has never been offered the real prospective for EU membership, something that “explains a lot of Ukraine’s problems with political and economic development over the past two decades,” wrote Timothy Ash, an analyst with Nomura, the investment bank.

“Reformers in Kiev might well now find it that much more difficult to sell painful political and economic reforms to their own populations given that the Dutch have basically closed the door to them in terms of any European perspective,” Ash added. “The door has been closed, the drawbridge raised.”

The prime political casualty, at least initially, appears to be Poroshenko. He was already rocked by disclosures from the “Panama Papers” this week that he set up an offshore vehicle for his chocolate company, Roshen. Although it is unclear whether this broke Ukrainian law, and Poroshenko denies any wrongdoing, the revelations have added fuel to accusations that the president is involved in corruption.

Poroshenko has defended his actions, saying they were needed to set up a blind trust for his assets. But calls are growing in Ukraine for a full investigation, and one parliamentary leader, Oleh Lyashko of the Radical Party, is pushing for the president’s impeachment.

The Panama scandal comes on the heels of a weeks-long political deadlock over who will become prime minister, a fight that has paralyzed the government and led to growing worries that the country’s post-revolution reform program has stalled.

Whatever the ultimate result, the immediate effect seems to have been a circling of wagons in the government — and a decision to avoid any major changes in the political leadership.

Consequently, after much political back and forth, observers are now predicting that Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk will remain in his post.

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Consequently, after much political back and forth, observers are now predicting that Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk will remain in his post.

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IT is easy to despair of Ukraine. The war-torn country has been engulfed by political crisis for nearly two months. The “Revolution of Dignity” that overthrew the corrupt, authoritarian government of President Viktor Yanukovych two years ago brought no revolutionary change. Corruption is still rampant. Key reforms are incomplete. The separation of powers between the president and prime minister remains vague. The oligarchs are still entrenched and the old political faces are having a makeover. The government is paralysed. Foreign aid is frozen. And the shenanigans around the formation of the new government seem painfully familiar.

On April 10th, after weeks of vacillation, the prime minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk, whose popularity had plummeted along with Ukrainians’ living standards, offered to resign. His two-year term produced mixed results. His government managed to raise the absurdly low price Ukrainians are charged for gas, and reduce the country’s dependence on Russian supplies. Public procurement—a big source of corruption—became more transparent. But his administration was tarred by corruption scandals and stalled reforms.

Mr Yatseniuk’s offer of resignation was followed by dissension and backroom horse-trading. The squabbling exemplified Ukraine’s lack of a responsible political elite. On April 14th the Rada, Ukraine’s parliament, voted in a new government led by Volodymyr Groisman, the speaker of parliament and a close ally of President Petro Poroshenko. Oleksandr Danyliuk, a former consultant at McKinsey, is to be finance minister. The new administration is backed by a thin coalition between Mr Poroshenko’s bloc and Mr Yatseniuk’s party, which despite its miserable ratings will retain key cabinet posts, including the Ministry of the Interior.

Ukraine-watchers could not escape a feeling of déjà vu. Twelve years ago the Orange Revolution was followed by a period of misrule by then-President Viktor Yushchenko. At the time Mr Poroshenko, who was one of Mr Yushchenko’s lyubi druzi (“dear friends”), epitomised the betrayal of the revolution’s hopes.

Yet in at least one respect the current situation is different: the energy of the Revolution of Dignity has not dissipated. Instead it has carried over into civil society. With international support, Ukrainian civic groups are trying to force the government to follow through on the promises of the Maidan uprising to reform a corrupt, oligarchic post-Soviet system.

On a Kiev street parallel to the presidential administration building, dozens of young activists are shaping a new European-style state, building parallel institutions and drafting laws that are pushed through parliament. Some 50 of the leading non-governmental organisations (NGOs) have formed a coalition, oddly styled the “Reanimation Package of Reforms” (RPR) in English, that is pushing bills, staging protests, monitoring reforms and holding weekly meetings with MPs.

RPR includes two dozen groups with expertise on reforms such as decentralisation and the fight against corruption. “We have real sway,” says Vadym Miskyi, a 26-year-old RPR organiser who was on Maidan two years ago. The network also includes independent media organs and some 40 young members of parliament who call themselves Euro-optimists. Many of the young activists, encouraged by the success of Georgia’s reforms in the mid-2000s, are rallying behind Mikheil Saakashvili, a former Georgian president and now the governor of Odessa, who is spearheading a national anti-corruption movement.

Unlike the Georgian reforms, which were zealously enforced from the top, the changes in Ukraine are less visible. Yet they have broader support. Daria Kaleniuk, the head of Anti-Corruption Action Centre, one of the RPR’s member groups, says one reason corruption may seem to be getting worse is that it receives more media exposure than it did under Mr Yanukovych. “We have created a toxic environment for Ukraine’s corrupt officials, who have been stealing for the past quarter-century,” says Sevgil Musaieva-Borovyk, the editor of Ukrainska Pravda, an online newspaper.

...

Inevitably, the civil activists and NABU investigators—rigorously selected, trained by Western anti-fraud services and well paid—are provoking resistance from the old system. The General Prosecutor’s office, headed until recently by Viktor Shokin, a protégé of Mr Poroshenko, has refused to pass information to NABU and attacked the Anti-Corruption Action Centre. “In a country where officials steal by percentage points of GDP, it was always going to be a struggle,” says Ms Kaleniuk. “We were ready for it.”

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Putin's a great and strong leader for his people. He doesn't care about political correctness, global warming, the U.N., Ketchup-Gigolo John Kerry, or any of the limp-wristed douchebag Europeans. He says 'fuck you' to the whole suicidal world. We could/should be doing great things with him.

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A Ukrainian hacker group published on 7 May, an extensive list of names and personal details of numerous journalists, who had covered the conflict from the rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine. The leak has raised concerns about the safety and welfare of the journalists, many of whom are affiliated with international media organisations.

The hackers published the list on a website called Myrotvorets (Peacemaker), claiming that they had gained access to the computers of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine used to keep track of the list of registered journalists granted to work in the area. The hackers claimed that they felt justified in making the information public "because these journalists collaborate with fighters from terrorist organiations," the Wall Street Journal reported.

The New York based Committee to Protect Journalists issued a statement denouncing the leak, which contains private information, including cell phone numbers and email addresses of around 4,500 journalists from across the world. Some of those in the list have acknowledged having experienced extreme ordeal in the detention centres of Donetsk.

The organisation's Europe and Central Asia programme coordinator Nina Ognianova said, "Publishing journalists' private contact details puts them at risk. At worst this action could be read as a thinly veiled call to target them."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is your post about the state of freedom in Ukraine?

So, did you hear about the personal information that some assholes in Kiev released on 4,000+ journalists? These journalists apparently committed the crime of being registered with, and covering the conflict in the Donbas.

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A Ukrainian hacker group published on 7 May, an extensive list of names and personal details of numerous journalists, who had covered the conflict from the rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine. The leak has raised concerns about the safety and welfare of the journalists, many of whom are affiliated with international media organisations.

The hackers published the list on a website called Myrotvorets (Peacemaker), claiming that they had gained access to the computers of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine used to keep track of the list of registered journalists granted to work in the area. The hackers claimed that they felt justified in making the information public "because these journalists collaborate with fighters from terrorist organiations," the Wall Street Journal reported.

The New York based Committee to Protect Journalists issued a statement denouncing the leak, which contains private information, including cell phone numbers and email addresses of around 4,500 journalists from across the world. Some of those in the list have acknowledged having experienced extreme ordeal in the detention centres of Donetsk.

The organisation's Europe and Central Asia programme coordinator Nina Ognianova said, "Publishing journalists' private contact details puts them at risk. At worst this action could be read as a thinly veiled call to target them."

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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukrainian-hackers-leak-personal-information-t
housands-journalists-1559923

Since journalists travel over large areas, covering conflicts in many regions, this also puts them at risk from jihadists and other extremists, some of whom are working hand-in-glove with the neo-Nazis of Ukraine.

Ukraine is a giant cluster-fuck. You don't hear much about it in the press anymore because it's not going so well. Right now, it looks like the post-Soviet space - if not worse- when formerly state-controlled enterprises were being snapped up by gangsters and oligarchs. The power struggle is between various oligarchs, the Nazis, and some ethnic minorities like the Mejili Tartars. Ordinary people don't stand a chance in the melee. THAT is the state of freedom in Ukraine.

Next time, try posting on-topic. If you really want to post something about Russia, make your own thread.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is your post about the state of freedom in Ukraine?

Next time, try posting on-topic. If you really want to post something about Russia, make your own thread.

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THETHREESTOOGES to Putin: I can't quit you!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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THETHREESTOOGES to Putin: I can't quit you!

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OMFG! I laughed my ass off!

It seems that the people who keep claiming I'm a Putin fan girl spend about 10X (if not more) time talking about ... Putin!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is your post about the state of freedom in Ukraine?

So, did you hear about the personal information that some assholes in Kiev released on 4,000+ journalists? These journalists apparently committed the crime of being registered with, and covering the conflict in the Donbas.

Quote:

---

A Ukrainian hacker group published on 7 May, an extensive list of names and personal details of numerous journalists, who had covered the conflict from the rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine. The leak has raised concerns about the safety and welfare of the journalists, many of whom are affiliated with international media organisations.

The hackers published the list on a website called Myrotvorets (Peacemaker), claiming that they had gained access to the computers of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine used to keep track of the list of registered journalists granted to work in the area. The hackers claimed that they felt justified in making the information public "because these journalists collaborate with fighters from terrorist organiations," the Wall Street Journal reported.

The New York based Committee to Protect Journalists issued a statement denouncing the leak, which contains private information, including cell phone numbers and email addresses of around 4,500 journalists from across the world. Some of those in the list have acknowledged having experienced extreme ordeal in the detention centres of Donetsk.

The organisation's Europe and Central Asia programme coordinator Nina Ognianova said, "Publishing journalists' private contact details puts them at risk. At worst this action could be read as a thinly veiled call to target them."

---

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukrainian-hackers-leak-personal-information-t
housands-journalists-1559923

Since journalists travel over large areas, covering conflicts in many regions, this also puts them at risk from jihadists and other extremists, some of whom are working hand-in-glove with the neo-Nazis of Ukraine.

Ukraine is a giant cluster-fuck. You don't hear much about it in the press anymore because it's not going so well. Right now, it looks like the post-Soviet space - if not worse- when formerly state-controlled enterprises were being snapped up by gangsters and oligarchs. The power struggle is between various oligarchs, the Nazis, and some ethnic minorities like the Mejili Tartars. Ordinary people don't stand a chance in the melee. THAT is the state of freedom in Ukraine.

Next time, try posting on-topic. If you really want to post something about Russia, make your own thread.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I didn't object to your posting about Russia, as you tried to portray.


What I WAS objecting to was your muddling of topics. If you want to post about some heinous actions of Russia ... and spend EVEN MORE TIME posting about Putin ... start another thread.

And I'm STILL snickering about how you can't quit Putin!

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is what's happening in Russia connected to what's happening in Ukraine? Don't reference the general bias that you seem operate on, which goes "Bad things are happening in Russia and therefore it "must" have an effect on Ukraine but explain to me and bring evidence for HOW Russia is causing Ukraine to implode. I'll bet that no matter how hard you try, you can't find any causal connection.

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How is what's happening in Russia connected to what's happening in Ukraine? Don't reference the general bias that you seem operate on, which goes "Bad things are happening in Russia and therefore it "must" have an effect on Ukraine but explain to me and bring evidence for HOW Russia is causing Ukraine to implode. I'll bet that no matter how hard you try, you can't find any causal connection. - SIGNY


Really???- STOOGE


This article

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is about Russian military invasion in post-Euromaidan Ukraine. For Russian annexation of Crimea, see Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. For the unrest in eastern Ukraine, see 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. For the ongoing military conflict in Donbass, see War in Donbass.

Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present)

Part of the Ukrainian crisis and the War in Donbass
2014 Russo-ukrainian-conflict map.svg

Pink in the Donbass area represents areas currently held by the DPR/LPR insurgents (cities in red).

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Crimea, which is under Russian control, is also shown in pink/red. Yellow represents areas under the control of Ukrainian government (cities in blue).

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Unmarked Russian troops take over Crimea seize military units,fortify near Chonhar, Kherson Oblast (abandoned by 9 December 2014)

Russian military buildup on Russian-Ukrainian border

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NATO condemns Russian involvement, plans Rapid Trident military exercises in Ukraine, reinforces members west of Ukraine.

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Ukraine accuse Russia of orchestrating unrest in eastern and southern Ukraine

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Russian intervention in the War in Donbass
Economic sanctions applied to Russia as a result of the

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intervention contribute to the collapse of the ruble and the Russian financial crisis that began in 2014

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Territorial changes
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation
Pro-Russian insurgents control strip along border from Novoazovsk to Luhansk

Belligerents
Russia
In Crimea:
Republic of Crimea
In Donbass:
Donetsk People's Republic
Lugansk People's Republic Ukraine Ukraine

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Commanders and leaders

Russia Vladimir Putin
Russia Sergey Shoygu
Russia Alexander Lentsov[24]
Russia Valery Gerasimov
Russia Igor Sergun
Russia Aleksandr Vitko
Russia Denis Berezovsky
Republic of Crimea Sergey Aksyonov
Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Zakharchenko
Luhansk People's Republic Igor Plotnitsky Ukraine Petro Poroshenko
Ukraine Ihor Tenyukh
Ukraine Mykhailo Kutsyn
Ukraine Serhiy Hayduk

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Units involved
Russian Armed Forces:
Ground Forces Russian 76th Airborne Division patch.svg 76th Airborne Division
Russian 98th Airborne Division patch.svg 98th Airborne Division
Russian 31st Airborne Brigade patch.svg 31st Airborne Brigade
18th Mechanized Brigade
9th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Nizhny Novgorod)

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Nuland: What do you think?


Pyatt: I think we're in play. The Klitschko piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.

Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?

Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.

Nuland: OK, good. I'm happy. Why don't you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.

Pyatt: OK, will do. Thanks.

Nuland: OK... one more wrinkle for you Geoff. I can't remember if I told you this, or if I only told Washington this, that when I talked to Jeff Feltman [United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs] this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy Robert Serry did I write you that this morning?

Pyatt: Yeah I saw that.

Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.

Pyatt: No, exactly. And I think we've got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I'm still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych (garbled) that. In the meantime there's a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I'm sure there's a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. The other issue is some kind of outreach to Yanukovych but we probably regroup on that tomorrow as we see how things start to fall into place.

Nuland: So on that piece Geoff, when I wrote the note [US vice-president's national security adviser Jake] Sullivan's come back to me VFR [direct to me], saying you need [US Vice-President Joe] Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an atta-boy and to get the deets [details] to stick. So Biden's willing.

Pyatt: OK. Great. Thanks.

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A top Ukrainian official said that elections in eastern Ukraine will be possible only after Ukraine's sovereignty is renewed in the region and Russia's presence is eliminated in those territories. A deputy speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament, Oksana Syroyid, told VOA on Friday that from the Ukrainian perspective, any elections under current conditions would legitimize those who occupy Ukrainian territory. It would mean bringing them into Ukrainian politics, she said, which would end up destroying the Ukrainian state and its sovereignty.

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Nuland: U.S. won't recognize elections in Donbas unless Minsk is implemented*

The U.S. will not accept local election in the occupied territories of eastern Ukraine, if they are not held in accordance with the Minsk agreements. U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland stated this after the meeting with Russian President's Adviser Vladislav Surkov, as Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports.

"We as well as everybody else in the international community we won't recognize any results of the elections in Donbas, held without observing the Minsk agreements", - Nuland said.*

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On May 20, Ukraine's Azov Battalion (Civilian Corps and Regiment) spearheaded a march in central Kyiv under the motto 'No Back Down Is What Nation Demands'. They protested the Minsk agreements and the holding of elections in the separatist-held Donbas.

The organisers say, it will lead to the ultimate loss of government control over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Read also Azov battalion spearheads unity march to ‘cleanse' Kyiv streets of communist past

According to Ukraine's police, nearly 2,000 people took part in the rally, whereas organizers said about 8,000 activists were brought together. The march resulted in a rally outside Ukraine's Parliament building (Verkhovna Rada). The protest was held in a peaceful manner, but from time to time the activists would set off firecrackers and flares.

Ukraine's European partners insist on running local elections in the occupied territories of Ukraine. According to German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the vote should take place until July of this year. He called on the parties to work on developing the election laws for Donbas.

Kyiv insists that the local elections in the militant-held territories must be held under the Ukrainian law involving Ukrainian parties, official observers and journalists. Separatists do not accept these terms while Russia demands amnesty for militants*.

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