To those of us who just sold your country down the river... by Clandestiny

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
... Damn you all. You're about to get exactly the government you deserve.

It's a shame that the rest of us have to take the punishment along with you.

-----------------------------
"I look at the big map and all of the red in flyover country and I feel like I've been locked in a room with the slow learners. We have become the country that pulls a dry cleaning bag over its head to play astronaut." --TBogg

I was thinking the same thing although I'm still not covinced it was a fair election ..the computer voting was in Ohio and Florida

All the people who voted for Bush they are going to get exactly the what they deserve and they are probably going to be the ones crying the loudest when the Crap flies

but its a shame I take no comfort in seeing my fellow Americans suffer not even the delusional idiots who voted for this administration..yes its sad that we will have to suffer to too!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:41 PM

ARCBEATLE

God I hope theres no re-instaed draft.....

Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....

If people only beleive wahts in a movie, their damn well sure beleiving Serenity.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:46 PM

I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

How on earth will anyone be convinced of anything like that?

"Gee, you are an idiot! Now vote like me you slack-jawed yokel!"

I am tired of having to distance myself from so many people with which I share so many views because they are incapable of granting that the people on the other side might actually understand the issue and THINK DIFFERENTLY.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:49 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

You've never listened to Sean Hannity have you?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:56 PM

ARCBEATLE

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
You've never listened to Sean Hannity have you?

hehe, yeah, and anyways this is the only place I have to voice a liberal oppinion, Im like the only demcrat at my school....

If people only beleive wahts in a movie, their damn well sure beleiving Serenity.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 1:57 PM

Well... I have...

I don't really know anyone that likes him though.

Would it then be your contention that it is good
to emulate the likes of him?

You bring up an obvious example of someone on the right that is an attacker. But, his behavior is in the minority of those on the right in my opinion.

Sure, I see conservatives go after liberal VIEWS all the time. But the typical response is to question their intelligence or speculate on their "personal relationship with Jesus". Never once seeming to grant the idea that they have thought about the issue and simply view it different.

This election was typical, IMO. the drive wasn't to try to debate the merits of positions and perhaps change anyone's view with CALM conversation, it was to shanghai new voters to march lock-step into the booths to just outnumber them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:10 PM

In the vein of changing people's minds. If the left is so certain that the logic of their views will prevail, then why all the histrionics and rhetoric?

Why not calmly debate things issue by issue and, if really true, point out the fallacies in the beliefs of the opposition.

Look at how coming off as a raving looney did in Dean's campaign!

Does anyone on the left really feel that the right makes much distinction between Howard Dean and John Kerry?

Can any Kerry backers say with a clear conscience that they really thought he was the answer? (Of the 9, I'd have gone with Liebermann)

I'd ask people here that consider themselves on the left whether they have ever sat and watched a show like Bill O'Reilly for a week straight and tried to view it with an open mind. People like limbaugh and hannity are just lockstep with whatever bush says and does and there is nothing to be learned there.
Someone like O'Reilly actually disagrees with the republicans on occasions and it is interesting to see when and why he does. I think the left could learn from him that not everyone on the right is as insane or stupid as some here want to believe.

What I find sad, is that I am hard-pressed to give the left's version of O'Reilly. There are some members of congress I would point to, but I mean more in terms of those in the media that are sort of a left-centrist so that people on the right might be able to learn something about the left without "going off the deep end" in their eyes.

Lets face it, the most accessible media personalities on the left are about as far out as limbaugh and hannity...

Anyway. To those on the left, I'd say, think of someone good that is accessible and whose only purpose in life isn't to hate george bush...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:10 PM

SERGEANTX

It seems to me the real master stroke of this election was elevating the whole gay marriage thing to a national concern. I believe Karl Rove and company very deliberately turned this into a national issue to stoke up social conservatives. Once they are at the polls its a given they'll vote for Bush, since he's God's favorite and all.

Our population just gets more malleable as the methods for manipulating them get more sophisticated. Democracy can't work in such an environment.

Here it is folks. Quit sending your kids to public schools. Turn off the TV.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:47 PM

CAPTAINHARBATKIN

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. - H L Mencken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their
clothing - and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:55 PM

CLANDESTINY

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

How on earth will anyone be convinced of anything like that?

"Gee, you are an idiot! Now vote like me you slack-jawed yokel!"

I am tired of having to distance myself from so many people with which I share so many views because they are incapable of granting that the people on the other side might actually understand the issue and THINK DIFFERENTLY.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

Sorry. I'm all out of tolerance. Tolerance, reason, and trying to coax a consensus is the standard Democratic tool, and what did it get us? Four more years of the worst Presidential administration in more than four decades.

Insult your intelligence? You bet. Yours and everyone else's who voted Bush in. Sorry if I offend you. But I'm looking at four more years of possibly irreparable damage to the country I call my home, and it's your fault; so I figure that one offense deserves another.

No. I am NOT prepared to be reasonable about this. So you can continue the debate or not, if you like -- I'm game -- but don't be surprised if I tear out a few throats.

I.

Am.

PISSED.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:57 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Actually no, you don't have to!

We all are free to make choices like that. Depending on which end of the US you live in, there are plenty of like minded folks just stone's throw away.

So, then the ~50% of americans that don't believe in GW also don't have to pay any attention to any rediculous laws that he has made/will make (ie The "Patriot" Act, etc)? They will be able to rebuild international relations? They will be able to make the US's forgein policies less hostile? They'll be able to reinstitute enviornmental laws to protect the US and this planet? Homosexuals will be able to be married (or civil union) regardless of any constiutional changes that he makes?

Last I checked, these things and more are what *all* americans will exactly *not* be able to do in the next years whether they voted for Kerry *or* Bush.

Basically, there are consequences for every decision and about half of americans don't want the ones that *are* coming along with this one. But they *will* have to deal with them anyway. ie Just because you have someone to bitch about things with, doesn't change reality, period.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

Which side is the tolerant one? I forget.

Amen, brother. I don't think that Democrats are stupid, immoral, unenlightened people simply because they voted for Kerry. Quite the contrary--I'm glad that they voted for the candidate that they felt best represented their views. But don't "damn me" just because I don't agree with you. And don't insult me simply because I've decided that Kerry didn't represent what I was looking for in a President.

Now I realize that I leave myself open to questions like, "What were you looking for? A fascist dictator?" But honestly, that's just immature. Let's leave this red/blue bashing off our boards. We've got way more class than this, folks.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 2:57 PM

ZARK1976

Quote:
Originally posted by arcbeatle:
Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....B]

Uhm, please tell me that you're joking and you know that's constitutionally impossible. please please please.

"Could be he's harboring some resentment at us for putting his man through our engine."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 3:00 PM

HJERMSTED

U.S. policy has gone beyond the political pendulum theory (a swing to the right followed by a swing to the left).

I prefer an anology that has the U.S. going in circles. Very small circles like a pacing lunatic. We have two parties when we should be enjoying the influence of numerous parties via a proportional representation system (for congressional bodies) and instant run-off voting -aka- majority preferential voting (for selecting executives). These are new democratic tools that empower the citizens. Other nations use them as we speak with fantastic drool-inducing results. [Another great democratic tool the U.S. does not have: binding national referendums.]

If we MUST keep this decrepit winner-take-all electoral college system, we need to redistribute the electoral votes. The south has far too much influence over our national political scene. It is stagnating the nation. When the two parties spend all of their time trying to dominate each other and/or dismantle each other's programs (after a changing of the guard, for example), all this country ends up getting is stuck and frustrated. New innovative ideas cannot be explored in this environment.

Perhaps it is time to break the U.S. up into smaller nations. The south can form their nation and do their thing and the north plus the coasts can be another nation and do something different. Maybe breaking the nation down into three or four nations is even better. Technically, we are supposed to be 50 small nations right now... but we all know this is NOT how the power has been distributed.

I'm all for it! Let's downsize the U.S. into three or four medium sized nations. The new nations could, of course, form political and economic alliances (if they don't stupidly declare war on each other).

Like a dozen or so european nations have done over the past decade or two, I believe it is time for north american citizens to explore regional autonomy over hulking nationalism.

mattro

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 3:00 PM

THEGREYJEDI

I present you with a picture of two Americas. The Northeast, North Midwest, and the Left Coast, and Florida(New New York) being one Country.

The South, Midwest, and Everywhere Else, being another.

You will note that our nations largest cities and most of our money finds itself in the New York, California, Chicago, Florida spaces. And These are your Loudest Democrats.

Then you take your lower income South and Mid-west. And these are Republicans.

I think all Kerry supportes should look closely at the results. Even if you give Ohio to Kerry, he doesn't have enough to win. Bush has the majority this time around, even of the popular vote. You know why this happened? Kerry lost the Conservative Southern Democrats. Too much polarization of the parties is happening. Want to make this place better on both parties? Vote for moderate candidates. I'm a die-hard Republican. I would have voted for Clarke if he'd have gotten the nomination. Also, look at how many people voted! My God! It was beautiful! We've seen one of the highest voter turnouts ever! And remember, it's only a four year term. The next president is likely to be a Democrat. But all of you registered Democrats, make a point to spread the word. Nominate and vote for moderates. You'll steal votes from other parties, and win your own conservatives. Republicans! You'll make compromise and peace between parties easier if you support moderate candidates!

We voted! My God did we vote! It was a beautiful thing.

--------------------------------------------------
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com

http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 3:34 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
U.S. policy has gone beyond the political pendulum theory (a swing to the right followed by a swing to the left).

I prefer an anolo...
...I believe it is time for north american citizens to explore regional autonomy over hulking nationalism.

mattro

You rock Hjermsted. My sentiment approximately.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 4:26 PM

ANFA

Wow. You all are disturbed. I truly understand your frustrations and anger, but it comes down to one thing - It is done. No going back. The popular vote was determined, it happend to be Bush, and even poor old Ben Affleck and all those musicians couldn't sway enough people in the end. What they [did] do was inspire the younger generation to get out there and voice their opinions.
I think I have to agree with TheGreyJedi - look how many people voted. That is amazing!!! I happen to live in Ohio. I stood in line at a tiny neighborhood fire station for about a half an hour to use a portable, old fashioned voting booth (a card with chads and all!), but I know people that waited 2 to 4 hours and more just to get in. The lines around the Columbus area were insane! No other election comes to mind where voter turn out has been this incredible.
And if you really think disbanding our great nation into many seperate ones is going to solve all of our problems, well, as they say - It's a free country, you are entitled to your own opinion. But it was our country, united, that gave that right to you.

" We're just too pretty for God to let us die."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 4:55 PM

JASONZZZ

which will only lead to the inevitable prediction that the 2008 election will have abysmal turnout since everyone will now think that nothing they do will affect much change. All that wait for the same status quo.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anfa:
Wow. You all are disturbed. I truly understand your frustrations and anger, but it comes down to one thing - It is done. No going back. The popular vote was determined, it happend to be Bush, and even poor old Ben Affleck and all those musicians couldn't sway enough people in the end. What they [did] do was inspire the younger generation to get out there and voice their opinions.
I think I have to agree with TheGreyJedi - look how many people voted. That is amazing!!! I happen to live in Ohio. I stood in line at a tiny neighborhood fire station for about a half an hour to use a portable, old fashioned voting booth (a card with chads and all!), but I know people that waited 2 to 4 hours and more just to get in. The lines around the Columbus area were insane! No other election comes to mind where voter turn out has been this incredible.
And if you really think disbanding our great nation into many seperate ones is going to solve all of our problems, well, as they say - It's a free country, you are entitled to your own opinion. But it was our country, united, that gave that right to you.

" We're just too pretty for God to let us die."

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 5:40 PM

SHLEE79

Nevermind, I guess I read the news wrong. But still, even though there were more young voters this year we still only accounted for about 17% of all voters as we did in 2000. Oh well, I was hoping that more of us would vote.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 6:26 PM

JASONZZZ

But you did get all get a free bag of Ramen, package of underwear, and listen to free Springsteen. wOOt!

Quote:
Originally posted by shlee79:
Nevermind, I guess I read the news wrong. But still, even though there were more young voters this year we still only accounted for about 17% of all voters as we did in 2000. Oh well, I was hoping that more of us would vote.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Sorry. I'm all out of tolerance. Tolerance, reason, ...

So it would seem.

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Insult your intelligence? You bet. Yours and everyone else's who voted Bush in.

Me? Where exactly did you draw THAT conclusion from? Because you sound like a raving loon to me right now, I must be a republican?
Get off your high horse, read my words and tell me where I gave party affiliation. If anything, I think I dropped some pretty big clues about the OPPOSITE.

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
Sorry if I offend you. But I'm looking at four more years of possibly irreparable damage to the country I call my home, and it's your fault; so I figure that one offense deserves another.

Hey, high horse! Illinois resident here... how did YOUR state deliver?

Quote:
Originally posted by Clandestiny:
No. I am NOT prepared to be reasonable about this.

Yes, that is plainly obvious by your errant choice of target. In a prior post, I mentioned how annoying it was to agree in principle with so many people that were simply incapable of expressing anything but bile. Your means of communicating leave much to be desired. You rant and try to piss ME off? No wonder you seem so ineffective at convincing others of your point. Luckily for you, people like me will keep trying to actually talk to others... No thanks necessary though, your apparent scorn is all I need for motivation to help you.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 7:01 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by zark1976:
Quote:
Originally posted by arcbeatle:
Ill be 18 in Bushes 3rd term....B]

Uhm, please tell me that you're joking and you know that's constitutionally impossible. please please please.

I imagine he's being sardonic. But -- don't bet long odds against the XXII amendment being repealed during the next four years. If the Machine can pull that off, I see it as only a matter of time before "emergency legislation" gets passed "for our own good," and Bush becomes fundamentally unasailable in office.

A four-year hiatus in the gathering junta's momentum would have been nice, but in the long run, both major parties are dedicated to reducing our freedom. Just never thought we'd sell it so quickly. Or so cheaply.

Oh, for a Firefly-class transport, and a clear night sky...

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 7:17 PM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Clandestiny, I'm with you.

And I too am very, very worried.

Well, it's going to be a long four years.
I'd better get some sleep while I can.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by firefloozysuzie:
Clandestiny, I'm with you.

What is there to be with?

That he even wants to fight with someone that dislikes Bush as much as he? How reasonable is that?

My entire point was that too many dems burn time and energy doing nothing but attacking the other side rather than attempting to understand why they think differently. And what happens when I say that relatively easy to understand truth? *I* get attacked and have it explained to me who *I* must have voted for and how the problems of the country are now MY fault!

In what world is that NOT insane?

Is it really such a stretch to see why people on the right might start wondering about the stability of those on the left?

Look at one issue... Say gay marriage.
Whether its logical or not, someone on the far right might tend to say, "I think gay marriage is wrong."
They have stated their opinion of that thing. The most common sort of response I see from the left is NOT any sort of explanation of why it doesn't harm them personally and all that jazz, it is FAR more often simply to deride their intelligence or their religious beliefs or accuse them of inbreeding, etc...
Now that person MIGHT have been reasoned with early on... Maybe successfully, maybe not... But I can GUARANTEE you that they will not listen to ONE FRIGGIN WORD you have to say after you piss in their face. And the next person that comes along, ohhh say... ME... has an ENORMOUSLY uphill battle to convince them f the logic of the situation.

But, by all means, its a free country, swim in your bile and enjoy. At some point I'll just surrender and then you can call me a nazi too...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:03 PM

Quote:
Look at how coming off as a raving looney did in Dean's campaign!

I love Howard Dean you call him names raving looney, what I saw was a very passionate man...I would have prefered him to Kerry

showing emotion gets you labeled a looney by the radical right..

thats sick

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I love Howard Dean you call him names raving looney, what I saw was a very passionate man...I would have prefered him to Kerry
showing emotion gets you labeled a looney by the radical right..

thats sick

I am just describing what he came off as. And it was the dems that toppled him from his perch through the rest of the primaries, so don't go looking to the "radical right" to blame. You simply cannot behave that way and not expect to turn a percentage of people off.

I guess I am just not making my point very well when everyone that replies still feels the need to lash out at the right. I do not find it "radical" to think that Howard Dean appeared unstable at times. By the time the primaries reached here in Illinois, he was already pretty much dead, but we did make sure to put him to rest. He would have been a landslide loser after his behavior.

Until people like you get out of the mindset of immediately calling "the other side" names, you'll forever be someone that can only preach to the choir.

I think how people reply to me here will speak volumes about their capabilities. I feel pretty confident that I have been calm, reasonable and truthful. If someone finds themselves incapable of replying in kind, it seems to me that it should be a pretty good indicator of where the problem lies...

Cheers,
Gruesome

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:18 PM

NEUTRINOLAD

Quote:
...people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views.

I can definitely see how you get that impression.

Quote:
...when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

In my experience, those on the right tend to insult those on the left as; lacking morals, treasonous, unpatriotic, communists, socialists, and America Haters.

So you see, you've both got wonderful ad hominem attacks available. No need to actually examine issues or understand history, or even the language used, at all. Wonderful epithets, our brains would ache with thought if not for them.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:23 PM

RICKKER

well here's another fine mess we've gotten ourselves into. Did everybody take a stupid pill yesterday? I blame reality telivision. Stupid programing for stupid people. I don't have reception at my house. I got little info off my computer on line. Was nobody paying attention these last four years? My boss said that he heard a comentary that the guess was that most people were affraid to change leaders when loved ones were in a war. WAKE UP PEOPLE the leader you jusat re-elected was the moron that sent them there! Do you honestly think he has a plan to get them out? He's an oil man. Iraq has (had?) the worlds largest ooil reserve. Why do you think he had such a hardon for going in. Over 90% of the worlds oil is in the hands of people that really don't like us. I am serious ly dissppinted in my fellow Americans. After 9/11 we had a chance to unite the world as never before. What happend Bush showed off his leadership skills and united the world against us. Lets not forget little ole Cheney. What a piece of crap. This standup American sends all his money offshore to avoid taxes. Sets up Iraq and offers billion dollar contracts to his own company. This ass should be shot for treason. We get all these glorious tax breaks. Only if we already got lots of money. Lets not forget all the breaks to corporations to send jobs overseas. Do you honestly think re-electing the village idiot will make things right? One of the setups Bush used early on is about changing a horse in mid stream. IF THE FREAKING HORSE GOES ON A BLOODY RAMPAGE RUNNING HEADFIRST INTO THE RAGING RIVER AFTER BEING TOLD SEVERAL TIMES NOT TO. THEN IT BUCKS LIKE HELL TRYING TO THROW YOU OFF. Then yes you do. You get the hell off and you put a bullet in the rabid animals head and you put it out of everyones misery. You do not settle in calmly let it throw you and then let it lead, hoping it will take you out of the river, It's more likely to run you into the rapids. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Kerry would not be the cure for everything. What needs fixing is going to take a lot of time and effort from everyone. I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would have gotten us closer to the right direction than Bush ever could. For most of you out there that voted for Bush and are eligible for the draft. You will get what you deserve. He said he would create 100,000 new jobs. Three million went away. He said he was a man of peace. We are in the wrong war. He said there would be no draft. America was and could be so much. Now it is just a ship of fools. led by the biggest fool of all.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Until people like you get out of the mindset of immediately calling "the other side" names, you'll forever be someone that can only preach to the choir.

I am a Christian Republican who has voted for Bush twice. And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or PirateJenny, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence! Gruesome, on the other hand, I would listen too, because he has enough class to tolerate differing opinions. All I can say is thank God the Democratic party who have people who would rather use reason and logic than vitriol and insults. Good on you, Gruesome.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:37 PM

Quote:
My entire point was that too many dems burn time and energy doing nothing but attacking the other side rather than attempting to understand why they think differently. And what happens when I say that relatively easy to understand truth? *I* get attacked and have it explained to me who *I* must have voted for and how the problems of the country are now MY fault!

No this is so not true!! Its time that us Democrates Progressives start calling you guys out on the crap!! actually its the other way around..the attacking comes from the radical right..its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

its not even about disagreeing or listening
for example lets take your example of gay marriage, nobody is saying you have to like it or agree with it and that is your right ..but if you live in a free society if you believe in democracy, then you don't try to encroach on someones human rights you don't try to make them 2nd and 3rd class citazens

don't wrap youself up in the flag and talk about freedom and democracy..and then try to undermine someone else of those same rights just because you disagree... if you talk the talk then walk the walk and support the very ideals and ideology your country represents and stands for... its ok to disagree but don't try to dis infranchise someone else.

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

its hard for a reasonable person to have a discussion with a hypocrite, or someone who chooses to be in a delusional state and isn't reasonable

another example is the evangelical christian right..these people who claim to have values and morals and yet they don't stand for or support the very morals and values they claim to have.

how can these people claim to have morals and values and vote for an admistration like the Bush administration the same admistration that preachs morals and values and yet every law and bill that they support is the very opposite of what they claim.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

I've seen to many times where Dem's Liberal Progressives have tried to be reasonable and use logic and comon sense and they've been attacked

this is what its like trying to have a reasonable discussion with a rightwinger..

it could be day outside and a rightwinger will look you straight in the eye and say "No its night" and you could say "look out the window the sun is shining brightly" and the rightwinger will call you crazy because you said it was day when its day!!

and yes if your one of the ones who voted for this administration be prepared for the blame to be layed squarely on your shoulders when the Crap flies..( and it will)thats the price you'll have to pay!!..no excuses!! because we've tried to be reasonable we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care..so yes your gonna be blamed and rightly so!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
In my experience, those on the right tend to insult those on the left as; lacking morals, treasonous, unpatriotic, communists, socialists, and America Haters.

I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right.

I am trying to think how to word this...

There is a certain... Smugness... that many on the left seem to have. As if they "get it" and those on the right do not.

Mind you, I am speaking(typing?) all in generalities here, but where I think the right assumes wrong is when people to whom many of those labels might really apply *cough*michael moore*cough* are seen saying and supporting many of the same things that more reasonable people on the left espouse, the right seems to think that EVERYONE that agrees on certain social issues must agree on ALL issues. So I think the right jumps to conclusions by assuming that that everyone on the left is lock-step with celebrities that are socialists in all but name.

The smugness I mentioned... I can see it in this thread. This sense that some people here simply give up because the right will just never "get it". Its all very condescending. Like you are fed up with your errant children and they just will never learn.

I used to try to understand "the opposition" because I always found that it was a very effective tool in debating. To be able to take the opposite position and understand it to the point that you can argue it yourself helps you to find many holes in it. But as I got older, I started to realize quite simply that understanding the other point of view should be an ends in itself, and not a means to a different end.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

Thanks for illustrating my point, Jenny.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:52 PM

Quote:
"start calling you guys out on the crap"
"its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers"
"you guys don't deal in facts"
"its like talking to a brick wall"
"you guys can't acknowlege the truth"
"don't wrap youself up in the flag"
"you guys are too hypocritcal for words"

I don't know what to say.... But here goes...

Let me start by asking you a couple simple questions.
Am I a republican or a democrat?
A rightwinger or leftwinger?
Who did I vote for?
Am I religious?

After you have answered those, we can move on to this statement:

Quote:
evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild

What part of my messages here have confused you? I am trying to ask whether you are CAPABLE of holding a conversation WITHOUT this sort of CHILDISH generalization. Quite frankly, people like you EMBARRASS ME because it becomes more difficult by the day to hold REAL conversations with people because they start assuming I am going to freak out on them LIKE YOU DO, just because we share some certain beliefs.

Quote:
we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care

Thats funny. I don't think we've met, and to this point, I've been quite reasonable. Can you say the same?

So, if you are not going to even attempt to listen to reason, I'd simply ask you to instead SHUT UP and leave the talking to the grown ups.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:53 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views. - Gruesome

Quote:
And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or Succotash, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence- InevitableBetrayal

It would probably be a very congenial discussion indeed.

Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters-

I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter who remains CONVINCED that Saddam had massive amounts of WMD just before we invaded in 2003. This despite the fact that the Hans Blix, David Kay, and Charles Duelfer have gone over Iraq with a fine-tooth comb and found nothing. I've tried explaining that WMD don't store well (5 years, except for mustard gas) and that in order for Saddam to have the "massive" amounts of WMD that Bush claimed, Saddam would require a large manufacturing effort to build up those stockpiles. I've tried explaining that manufacturing, culturing/ weaponizing, and storing on that scale inevitably leaves traces. I've tried explaining that if he had listened to the efforts of the UN inspection teams he would have understood and appreciated how dedicated and downright sneaky the UN guys were and how unlikely it was that they would have missed anything significant. But he kept pointing over and over again to the WMD that Saddam "had" over a decade ago, believing that was somehow relevant, and no amount factual information could sway him off his idee fixe. BTW, I'm a chemist, and part of my job is to understand industrial, chemical agent, and biological releases.

The point is that Bush supporters refer to their "beliefs" over and over. It seems impossible for them (you?) talk about their support without using that word. I respect beliefs about as much as anyone, but don't expect me to treat beliefs as if they're facts, because they're not. It's like trying to reach a consensus with someone who insists that 2+2=5. What's the point of even talking about it?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 8:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not sure I'm even seeing any difference between you two

heh... ohhh... I think the laundry list of disagreements would require more than a few cups of coffee...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter

I think it is very telling that your own description of the conversation used a boxing analogy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters...

Once again, you've entered the conversation insulting my intelligence.

I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage come to mind). My point was that I'm much more inclined to listen to someone who is willing to respect the fact that as a fellow human being, I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.

I just can't believe that now Gruesome is in the same hated category as me, a hated Christian conservative Bush-supporting Republican, simply because he wants to hold a civil conversation! And you wonder why "people like me" won't even dialogue with you...

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.

How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage lead to mind)

Well... To set the record straight, I am pro-2nd amendment and staunchly anti-abortion.

But we would likely disagree on:
1. Gay rights
2. Drugs
3. Censorship
4. Patriot Act (And John Ashcroft in general)
5. Bush Selling out our technology field to India
6. Bush siding with CHINA?!?! over Thailand's independence
7. And probably dozens of other civil liberties being stolen everydaybut its late and I am tired...

But I wanted to clear up the 2 we agreed on, guns and babies!

Cheers,
Gruesome

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:13 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.

Of course you have the right to your own opinion. I wasn't trying to say that YOU are like the example I gave. But it's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.

How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

You're right. That man was an idiot, no question. But you can't extrapolate from him that all Bush supporters think similarly.

I'm a military intelligence analyst. Pre-war I was convinced--and not because of anything Bush said--that WMD would be found in Iraq. I was scared out of my mind when that first missile came our way. Now--I think we were all wrong. I think Saddam perpetuated the belief because it kept Iran in check.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:19 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Huh! Well, OK, I think we have some common ground here!!

Cheers! I'm off to bed. Sleep well.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

I ask myself that everyday.

I wasn't there and didn't hear your conversation. I know that for myself, I get some of my best results with the concept that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Facts are certainly useful, but there is a reason some people are great salesman and other are not.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:22 PM

in response to gruesome

1rst off you took what I said out of context, with your cut an paste 2nd I was making generalities..its too bad you can't seem to distingish that..and you took what I posted personally

you made a broad statement about people on the left

so I made a broad statement about people on the right in response.

I'm not interested in if you are a rep or a dem or right or left, I'm not interested in you!! I was interested in what you posted

so I hope that is clarified, believe me if I had of been interested in you I would have asked about you...I'm not just what you posted!!
I'm assuming if your going to make and post statments like that you must want a response

This is sad but if any point was proven I would have to say its more mine then yours

your own hypocrisy is coming through..you accuse the left of not being able to have a disscussion but by your very post its obviously you who can't

I didn't have the need to tell you or anyone else to Shut up..but you did

so I ask who needs to grow up...

who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion

thats because I know how to have a reasonable discussion its obvious that you don't

Please take your own advice..you seem to be in dire need of it

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.
It's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.

If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe. The trouble is that presuppositions are virtually impossible to change. Hence, when Dems and Reps sit down to talk, both walk away shaking their head, convinced of their own superiority. I just wish we could all take a big fat skepticism pill and let go of the conviction that we just have to be right.

With that...night all!

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:32 PM

Dear PirateJenny,

In response to your post:

Quote:
blah blah blah blah blah

Let me simply say that I have no interest in arguiing with you. I made generalizations about other people on the left because I see it too often and am tired of being identified with it. YOU chose to post a "vigourous" and spiteful retort to me in which you:
1. Accused me of being a republican.
2. Said that all the problems of the country would be my fault.
3. Went on to make stupid generalizations about religious people that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I asked people NOT to do in my original post to this thread.

So... That having been said. You really needn't reply. These are not arguments, they are simply an explanation why I don't really want to talk to you anymore. You are likely to vote how I would prefer anyway, so I certainly don't need to sway you politically. I had just rather hoped that I might convince people like you that you hurt your own cause everytime you post because you do not come off well and you will never convince anyone that disagrees with you of anything. All you will do is piss them off and make it harder for people like me to win people over to our side.

So... shhhhhhhh....

P.S. if you ever want to discuss something civily, feel free to post civily and it will be responded to in kind.

Cheers,
Gruesome

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:38 PM

Quote:
If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe.

and thats my whole point although I don't agree that the problem is presuppositions, because you or anyone is free to believe what you want to believe and your free to practice your belifes, the problem is when people try to put their belifes onto others who don't believe the same things

your truth is your truth ..but don't try to make your truth someone elses....thats the problem..and thats the problem with alot of rightwingers which is what I basically stated in my other post!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:44 PM

you've proven my point once again.

and your blah's thats childish..this is exactly what I was saying

and no let me clarify for you since you need clarifcation go back and read my post

I didn't accuse you of being a rep I don't care if you are or not

and I didn't say the problems of the country would be your fault I said if you are one of those that voted for this administration that the problems would be your fault!!

only you know who you did or did not vote for!!

you made a broad statment about people on the left not being able to have a discussion but its clear who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion without name calling this is what I was getting at in my intail response this kind of behavior is a prime example response

I don't know if your a rep or not and like I said I don't care but so far by the way this discussions been going I wouldn't be surprised!!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:51 PM