Out Like Flynn! by ElvisChrist

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I said deep state is a fantasy.- THUGR

Said the deep state troll.
How funny!

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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:34 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

SECOND< THANK YOU for posting the link.

I listened to the entire press conference. and if there was anything in it that I disagreed with, I don't remember what it was . . .

Did you even listen to this yourself?

Yes, I watched. Someone Trump wanted to hire to replace Flynn also watched, which was too bad for Trump -- his presser convinced Robert Harward to bow out.

Harward, the widely respected retired vice admiral who declined the Trump administration's offer, did so, according to a source, after the White House could not satisfy his conditions and after watching President Trump's press conference Thursday.
www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/exclusive-trump-presser-convinced-nsc-candi
date-harward-to-decline-879994947802

Unlike Signym, Harward did not go point by point, agreeing or disagreeing with Trump's answers and commentaries, but Seth Meyers very helpfully did.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:11 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And I listened to this joker, and yanno what? Everything he said was a bunch of bullshit. The interview was NOT "batshit crazy". Trump has answered the question about "contacts with Russia" multiple times, including calling it a "scam" ... how much clearer can Trump get? How many times is he supposed to answer the same question, which - a this point- has devolved into "badgering" and "propaganda".

Why are you getting your opinions from comedians who do nothing but try to destroy a person? I guess you never got over junior high.

You must be allergic to discussing important topics.

=====

Now, I went online to find out why Harward turned down the National Security Advisor position, and it was not because the Trump presser was "batshit crazy" or any such bullshit as you insinuate.

It was, as I thought, a chain of command issue: Although Flynn was a Trump supporter, and didn't do anything wrong, he still had to resign because he hadn't fully reported to Pence. So, what is the reporting structure?

Quote:
MSNBC host Chris Hayes on Friday cited a former national security official familiar with Harward's decision who said Harward asked that several demands be met as a condition of accepting the offer:

1) A clear chain of command, reporting directly to the president.
2) Restoring the [National Security Council] structure of prior administrations ... so that political advisers like Steve Bannon would not have a seat on the Principals' Committee.

"Harward wanted to undo the fairly large changes the president had made to the NSC that had inserted Bannon into the process," Hayes reported.

Citing his source, Hayes said "The White House did not offer Harward sufficient assurances that he would have such autonomy." Harward wrote a letter declining the offer.

http://www.businessinsider.com/national-security-adviser-trump-robert-
harward-declined-after-press-conference-2017-2

======

As you know, or SHOULD know by now, I never was a 100% Trump supporter. My vote was driven by the fact that the alternative was worse. Hillary Clinton was a deep state, globalist candidate, who received a lot of contributions from, and had many contacts with Saudi Arabia. Who did not have America's interests at heart.

Your reaction, SECOND, is that you're repelled by "loudmouth Texas businessmen". But in backing away from Trump, be aware of what corner that you've backing into. I would hope that you would consider which side you wind up being on with a little more seriousness.

One of the best interviews on the media and the deep state that I've heard lately

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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:08 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Pity . . .

According to Trump:

Trump did not direct Flynn to call Ambassador Sergey Kislyak and talk about sanctions, so there is no wrongdoing on Trump’s part.

But there was also nothing wrong with Flynn’s decision to call Kislyak and talk about sanctions, so there is no wrongdoing on Flynn’s part.

Flynn got fired not due to underlying misconduct, but because he told Vice President Pence he hadn’t discussed sanctions with Kislyak.

There are a bunch of different puzzling aspects to this.

First among them is the timing. Flynn wasn’t fired when Trump was told that Flynn had lied to Pence. Nor was Flynn fired when Pence found out that Flynn had lied to Pence. Rather, Flynn was fired a few hours after the Washington Post told the public that Trump had been told weeks earlier that Flynn had lied to Pence.

The second is the question of why Flynn would have misled Pence about this if there was nothing wrong with what he did. Normally people don’t lie to their colleagues for no reason.

Last but by no means least: If, as Trump says, he would have directed Flynn to discuss sanctions with Kislyak, why was it that the administration spent weeks insisting that there had been no such discussion? Trump’s position seems to be that his team believed Flynn had been doing the wrong thing (not talking to Kislyak about sanctions) but then it turned out that in fact Flynn had done the right thing (talking to Kislyak about sanctions), but the revelation that Flynn had done the right thing caused him to be fired because Flynn had falsely told them he’d done the wrong thing.

That’s crazy. Especially in an administration that is not exactly known for placing a high premium on strict factual accuracy, that can’t possibly be the reason Flynn was cashiered.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:42 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

According to all of the reports that I read, the "conversation" about sanctions went something like this:

CONVERSATION

Russian Ambassador: We are concerned about upcoming sanctions
Flynn: When Trump is is office, he'll review all policies

THE END

You're as bad as THUGR. Your mind has been infested with this whole BUT PUTIN! meme

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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 10:36 PM

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/319528-flynn-says-there-we
re-no-lines-crossed-in-conversation-with-russia

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Flynn claimed his conversation with Russia in December was "not to relieve sanctions. It was basically to say, 'Look, we're coming into office in a couple of weeks. Give us some time to take a look at everything,'" he said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/national-securi
ty-adviser-flynn-discussed-sanctions-with-russian-ambassador-despite-denials-officials-say/2017/02/09/f85b29d6-ee11-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.4960e6d4a3be

Quote:
Several officials emphasized that while sanctions were discussed, they did not see evidence that Flynn had an intent to convey an explicit promise to take action after the inauguration.

This helps explain why 'officials' were so happy to anonymously discuss classified intel with wapo. As wapo further reports in the same story:

Quote:
Flynn’s contacts with the ambassador attracted attention within the Obama administration because of the timing. U.S. intelligence agencies were then concluding that Russia had waged a cyber campaign designed in part to help elect Trump; his senior adviser on national security matters was discussing the potential consequences for Moscow, officials said. ...

But it turns out the story about Russia hacking the election was FAKE NEWS promoted by Hillary, the DNC, the Obama administration, and the CIA, to try and smear Trump and throw the election. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61385&mid=1
024319#1024319

wapo continued:

Quote:
Nine current and former officials, who were in senior positions at multiple agencies at the time of the calls, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

Other stories I've linked elsewhere said that the officials asked to remain anonymous because THEY WERE DIVULGING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

Quote:
All of those officials said Flynn’s references to the election-related sanctions were explicit. Two of those officials went further, saying that Flynn urged Russia not to overreact to the penalties being imposed by President Barack Obama, making clear that the two sides would be in position to review the matter after Trump was sworn in as president. “Kislyak was left with the impression that the sanctions would be revisited at a later time,” said a former official. A third official put it more bluntly, saying that either Flynn had misled Pence or that Pence misspoke. An administration official stressed that Pence made his comments based on his conversation with Flynn. The sanctions in question have so far remained in place.

... Those officials were already alarmed by what they saw as a Russian assault on the U.S. election.

Except there WAS no 'Russian assault on the U.S. election'. In effect, those officials were simply throwing more allegations out there in order to back up previous allegations - which have already been dismissed as invalid by DNI.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:13 PM

Has some new news popped up that changed anything?

There seemed to be a big "Trumps Being Ousted" party a few days ago and now there are just crickets.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:29 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh - if there was a party here, I missed it. I only show up now and again.

I agree with Signy though - the CIA, State Department, and the deep state are doing all they can to delegitimize Trump with the cooperation of some media. And I can imagine all level of fabricated story, 'classified' leak, media-deepstate collusion - whatever it takes - to do that.

Also, I'm assuming at the moment that that will all continue. The deep-state/ CIA/ State Department/ media nexus has been acting like this is an existential fight.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:47 PM

Me too, I just came by to post the thing about Firefly being re-instated. And there was a bunch of politics here. I tripped over it, and fell face down into a poodle. Puddle. Rain Drop Face Swap.

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:36 AM

It's been years since I was all conspiracy theorist crazy. Those days are behind me now. I really don't care all that much. Life seemed a whole lot longer when I was 22 years old, and I'm not all that interesting or important, so I don't feel as though I have a bullseye on my back.

That being said, I think it's foolish for anyone to believe there isn't a "Deep State" in any government. I'm not going to go so far as to make like Bugs Bunny and say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", but there really is no fighting it. They have all of the money and the power and they can hide in plain sight.

We are free enough to go about our lives as we please. We'll never know "real" power, but who wants that anyway?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:06 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

What Dennis Kucinich has to say:

Intel community trying to undermine Trump's presidency?

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:

Yeah but... Trump doesn't follow the But Putin! meme, so why do you think he resigned him? Just for not telling Pence? That seems like a made up reason to me.

Maybe the Trump team dug up some inexcusable skeletons from his past a little too late and figured with all of this Russia "hysteria" going on it is the perfect opportunity to get rid of him while nobody was watching.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey sorry for the double post. I blame the interwebz!

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Yeah but... Trump doesn't follow the But Putin! meme, so why do you think he resigned him? Just for not telling Pence? That seems like a made up reason to me. - G

I can think of all kinds of reasons from

1) Trump was facing insurmountable pressure from the CIA-MSM.inc deep state, and needed to lop off someone's head. The amount of hysterical press about everything Trump has been .... in a word ... unbelievable. People who have been in government for their entire careers claim they have never seen anything like this unrelenting - AND OPEN - pressure from the deep state. Just to press this "deep state" concept more: I have said, more than once, that I was sure that Obama was not in complete control of his foreign policy. The Maidan Surprise (provocateurs and snipers), the "gas attack" in Ghouta Syria, the Benghazi attack, the military cooperation plan with Russia that was scuttled within 24 hours when the USA military "accidentally" struck and killed 100 Syrian soldiers in an air attack that lasted several HOURS ... my impression is that there was some wrestling over foreign policy in the Obama admin, and that Obama didn't always win. That explains his policy lurching from side to side.

2) There was something in Flynn's background that couldn't stand scrutiny.

3) Republican neocons were pressuring Trump from the inside because Flynn was the most pro-peace-with-Russia appointee, and neocons like McCain STILL want war with Russia.

4) This was a setup. While the deep state was moving against Trump, Trump was gathering the information on the leakers and will charge some with treason, and fire a bunch of others.

I guess the answer is... who knows? I'm sure nobody will tell us the real story. I've read some dirt on the deep state that I don't want to pass on because I'm not sure how credible it is. But future events may tell us what went on.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

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Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess the answer is... who knows? I'm sure nobody will tell us the real story. I've read some dirt on the deep state that I don't want to pass on because I'm not sure how credible it is. But future events may tell us what went on.

Yep. Assuming there is a deep state there's never going to be anything credible we could ever say about it.

I look at any argument about whether the deep state exist or doesn't the same way I would look at a bible bouncer arguing the existence of God with an atheist.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, February 20, 2017 11:58 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

SUMTHINGZ RONG!

Its very alarming that Trumps replasement pick for Flynn iz not a clown or crooked in sum obvious way!
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/us/politics/mcmaster-national-secur
ity-adviser-trump.html

Therez no Russia connection (so far).

He haz no record uv being agenst sum branch uv the current gubment.

He appearz to be smart and well versed inthe subjects he will need for the post. (even rote a book)

He iz very well regarded by hiz peerz.

I woud hav been less worried if he'd named Sara Palin az Flynn'z replasement!

GOT TO BE sumthing major about to hit.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Yes, the press is dishonest
Yes, the leaks of confidential information are illegal
Yes, the leaks were done by the CIA/ NSA...

Nice concise post. For anyone who thinks I'm just agreeing with Sig, dig back and you'll find we had some spectacular flame wars. A lot of you were here for those.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:

Yeah but... Trump doesn't follow the But Putin! meme, so why do you think he resigned him? Just for not telling Pence? That seems like a made up reason to me.

Agreed. Someone is trying to redefine the Trump administration. Maybe multiple someones. Anyone remember the Christie team? They got bumped real fast.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Yep. Assuming there is a deep state there's never going to be anything credible we could ever say about it.

I'm going to look u this deep state thing. I need to know who is using the term and why. Remember the Shadow Govt? Sure, something like this is going on, but I might need to send this koolaid to the lab first.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

wapo continued

Very informative. thanks.

Wapo is Bezos of Amazon who is very much a clintonista. It's not a neutral site.

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

First among them is the timing....

Last but by no means least: If, as Trump says, he would have directed Flynn to discuss sanctions with Kislyak, why was it that the administration spent weeks insisting that there had been no such discussion?

Yeah, it seems to be someone didn't like the Russian sanctions lifting plan, but no one was going to do anything about it until it was leaked.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:37 AM

THGRRI

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's been years since I was all conspiracy theorist crazy. Those days are behind me now. I really don't care all that much. Life seemed a whole lot longer when I was 22 years old, and I'm not all that interesting or important, so I don't feel as though I have a bullseye on my back.

That being said, I think it's foolish for anyone to believe there isn't a "Deep State" in any government. I'm not going to go so far as to make like Bugs Bunny and say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", but there really is no fighting it. They have all of the money and the power and they can hide in plain sight.

We are free enough to go about our lives as we please. We'll never know "real" power, but who wants that anyway?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Jack, you're still a conspiracy theorist. Look, all you're doing is seeing people with power trying to exert said power. Why, too get more power. It's utterly impossible for it not to occur. It's happening right now amongst Trumps own advisors. Which explains some of the leaks. Now, as this occurs people look for allies. As they do they become groups of people; simple. This happens within all organizations, even governments. Put another way. Everyone has beliefs and a way of doing things and they push for those things.

---------------------

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Jack, you're still a conspiracy theorist. Look, all you're doing is seeing people with power trying to exert said power. Why, too get more power. It's utterly impossible for it not to occur. It's happening right now amongst Trumps own advisors. Which explains some of the leaks. Now, as this occurs people look for allies. As they do they become groups of people; simple. This happens within all organizations, even governments. Put another way. Everyone has beliefs and a way of doing things and they push for those things.

I didn't say I wasn't a conspiracy theorist. I just said I don't let anything drive me nuts anymore. It is what it is. I can't change it, and really there's no reason to even bother trying. I'm essentially free to do as I please. At least in America today, we're all given a fairly long leash.

I find it amusing that you don't recognize the conspiracy theorist inside yourself. You use it as an insult. It's not. If you take everything that is said at face value, particularly from any politician or any MSM outlet, you're the one with a problem.

All of this stuff that we see on a daily basis is nothing more than political theater. Stuff to keep you and I looking at each other instead of trying to peek into what goes on behind closed doors.

I'm not married to the term Deep State. Call it whatever you want. None of the people you know by name are the ones with the true power though. Why expose yourself to the microscope that is public opinion in this age of social media when nobody can prove that you even exist?

I realize I broke my 3 sentence rule with you on this one. Hard to talk about this issue in such short replies. Let's see how you do with this one, and we'll take it from there.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:

That's the thing - everyone's got an agenda, nothing new. Herbert Hoover? Mrs King Tut? We could probably name a couple dozen that hate Trump and have the potential to run him aground. One of the top ones is Tump himself with his staff being a close second. These Big Bad conspiracy naming conventions, "Deep State" shudder! "Shadow Government!" oh my! Just seems like something a manipulator creates to cause fog and uncertainty and it sounds very high school to me - makes me feel really wise and mature and that can't be good.

G

1) Yeah, that was the reason for my initial koolaid comment. Do we make the problem worse by dubbing it something, when it's a collection of known enemies.
2) Deep State is too closely associated with Bill Moyers, though I haven't read his schpiel yet, he's pretty solidly NWO.
3) All of that said, It's important not to confuse the proposed deep state with the normal tug of war. Paul O'Niell does a very nice deconstruction of the tug of war/monkey in the middle game in his book the price of loyalty.
4) Also, the tug of war is specifically those who already have pull, and there are also enemies of the state. Sadly, at this point, HRC is an enemy of the state, as she is actively or passively trying to overthrow it. Schumer also, even though he is in govt, appears to be doing so. We also should at least include Soros and anyone else known to be behind this plan. No reason for speculation, all these people immediately called for Trump's ouster just on the ground that he won the election. This is pretty similar to what happened to Yanukovich.

I guess the deep state would have to be defined in order to work as a concept. I feel like the CIA and tug of war are known, and the enemies of the state are also known. Any new concept would have to be made of evidence at least that they were working together, or anyone in the tug of war with any govt agency looking to usurp power while working with the enemies of the state.

And this is why I'm glad I came back. This is the real debate, and these are the real enemies, not some bunch of muslims somewhere.

So, sure, I do consider that Trump's connection to HRC may have meant this was all a set-up, but that is carrying this conspiracy a step deeper than deep state.

Here's a NYT story on the initial deep state and the US fears.

Quote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/world/americas/deep-state-leaks-tru
mp.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — A wave of leaks from government officials has hobbled the Trump administration, leading some to draw comparisons to countries like Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan, where shadowy networks within government bureaucracies, often referred to as “deep states,” undermine and coerce elected governments.

So is the United States seeing the rise of its own deep state?

Not quite, experts say, but the echoes are real — and disturbing.

Though leaks can be a normal and healthy check on a president’s power, what’s happening now extends much further. The United States, those experts warn, risks developing an entrenched culture of conflict between the president and his own bureaucracy.

Issandr El Amrani, an analyst who has written on Egypt’s deep state, said he was concerned by the parallels, though the United States has not reached authoritarian extremes.
-NYT
link out, Egypt source: http://www.merip.org/mero/mero010112

I haven't read the initial Turkey story. I assume it's connected to the dubious zionist alliance, the IMF-Ankara intelligence, the fusion force, and the creation of ISIS

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

None of the people you know by name are the ones with the true power though.

You probably do, because they come from a patriarchy with deference and inheritance going to the elders. The Brzezinksy's and Soros's of the world. That, the slight more savvy youngers, Dave Rockefeller jr, Nat Rothschild, etc.

But the Bilderbergers and all aside, these think tanks that assemble administrations were really not ready for transparency and technology. The guys in charge are always about trumps age, running with daddy's money when dad is too out of touch to run things, making sure dad thinks hes still in charge. Basically what Ivanka is trying to do.

But yeah, politicians are figureheads. Kristol is a name that keeps coming up on this coup story, and it should.

Thing is, Kristol and Perle were a team, and Perle and Geller are now team Breitbart. If you want a conspiracy theory, Breitbart himself. Sudden attack of oppose HRC seems to be a pretty deadly syndrome.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 1:45 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Wapo is Bezos of Amazon who is very much a clintonista. It's not a neutral site.

Oh, I know. It's done a really good job repeating the message of the used-to-be powers behind the presidency, who are now technically outsiders. When I want to know what they want me to think, I go to wapo (and bbc and nytimes). When I want to know what liberaloids want me to think, I go to salon*. When I want to know what the right wants me to think I go to fox. When I want a veneer of impartiality I go to reuters. And when I want exploding hamburger news (everything all out there with no filter and no thought) I go to cnn.

BTW, you gave me an idea. From it I predict that Trump will politically die the death of a thousand cuts inflicted by the deep state. There are too many people, with too much money and power, with too many connections to each other, who have all the tools, who've been at this for too long, for Trump to stand against them.

As for 'what is the deep state' http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61399, I think of it as the updated version of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

* For example, this fact-free hyperventilating poc

"There’s a joke going around about President Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, to the effect that he has the dubious distinction of having been fired by both Democratic and Republican administrations. But that’s not really very funny when you consider that he was fired by one for his erratic behavior and from the other because he was implicated in a scandal concerning possible connections to the Russian government.

Something has gone very wrong with our system that such a person could come so close to high levels of power in two administrations. But Flynn did. His short tenure and the circumstances of his departure have brought all the questions about Russian involvement in the campaign to the White House’s doorstep, where they cannot be ignored any longer."

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
That's the thing - everyone's got an agenda, nothing new. Herbert Hoover? Mrs King Tut? We could probably name a couple dozen that hate Trump and have the potential to run him aground. One of the top ones is Tump himself with his staff being a close second. These Big Bad conspiracy naming conventions, "Deep State" shudder! "Shadow Government!" oh my! Just seems like something a manipulator creates to cause fog and uncertainty and it sounds very high school to me - makes me feel really wise and mature and that can't be good.

I did mention in the other thread I wasn't married to the term Deep State. I actually don't like even using it because I realize that to a large group of people you automatically are dismissed because it is a term that has been associated with well known conspiracy theorists. I'll admit that even when I see somebody using it I just kind of tune out.

That being said, I don't think it's wise to dismiss the underlying idea of it though. To me, it only makes sense that people with true power and money would do it. I know I would. Watch a season of Survivor and you'll see it happening on a small scale all of the time. Hell... Even the Wizard of Oz was his own One Man Deep State.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, February 22, 2017 2:16 PM