Sorry, why is whether Obama bowed to the Saudi King an issue again? by AURaptor

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Sigh.

Have you proved it's photoshopped ? No.

Have you proved Bush doesn't do that kind of thing ? No.

Have you deflected the argument ? Yes.

Bully for you.

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Silence is consent.

Hello Rue,

I suppose we are equally disappointed with one another. I am sitting here sighing that you don't acknowledge this (to me) obvious sticking point. It is to my mind this entrenched refusal to admit an error that deflects the entire issue and keeps the discussion from moving forward.

The very article you posted in support of the picture describes something very different than the provided photo. Your own evidence describes cheek kisses, not mouth kisses.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Edited to add:

My conclusions so far:

1) Obama Bowed.
2) No evidence that bow was insidious.
3) Presidents often honor luminaries according to their culture.
4) Mouth kissing photo is a fake.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I found sequences of Bush kissing the Saudi Prince. Unfortunately, all I can post are those from google caches, like this:

They are not 'obviously' photoshopped to me.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:39 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Rue,

You are then arguing that the photo is correct, and that the article about the photographed event is mistaken?

You can make that argument. But since we know the provenance of the article and not of the photo, I think my skepticism is warranted.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think this is all Dodd's fault.

Or Saddam's.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:55 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think this is all Dodd's fault.

Or Saddam's.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Hello,

I have a picture proving that it is not.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:56 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Have you proved it's photoshopped ? No.

YES!
I can't claim expertise in a lot of things. I haven't deeply studied politics, protocol, history, physics, mechanics, etc etc etc. At best I have passable knowledge on such things. At worst I have only vague ideas. My area of study is GRAPHIC DESIGN. My most-used and most-studied program is PHOTOSHOP. This is ONE THING that I can speak about with vast knowledge and expertise. I have already pointed out the flaws in the image; just LOOK at it.
Dammit, Rue, I respect you for the most part, but you are damaging your credibility, at least with me, by clinging to a photo that I KNOW is faked. The video of kissing on each cheek is legit, the photo of holding hands is legit, the face-to-face photo is legit and is obviously the source for the lip-lock photoshop, which is NOT legit.
It's vastly important to use legitimate, unedited photos in order to keep credibility. I don't trust any "news" outlet that I have seen use clearly photoshopped images, I'm not going to trust yours any more than theirs. While I'm sure you didn't do the 'shopping yourself, and clearly weren't intending to post a falsified image, your bullheaded refusal to admit that one image isn't legitimate truly irritates me. Your point is supported by other sources you've posted, but undermined by a false one that you need to acknowledge, please.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think articles are sometimes worded diplomatically. It then says "Then the pair were photographed holding hands while walking through a field of bluebonnets", implying (though not saying) that they had not been photographed earlier.

I think MSM can be biased by what they publish and what they withhold. Note that though photographs of the two kissing were available, they did not run them (also further supporting the implication that no 'greeting' pictures were available).

It doesn't prove the picture was either real or fake. It doesn't prove the article was accurate or inaccurate. But I can point to intentional bias in the article. I'm not sure I can point to anything in the photo that would make me think twice.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:59 AM

RIPWASH

Please don't take this the wrong way, Rue, because normally I respect your opinion.

But your behavior over this photo is reminiscent of what you guys claim AURaptor of doing. Clinging to something that others are telling you is not true (the photo).

I won't say "clearly" or "obviously" to avoid getting myself in trouble with Kwicko

, but c'mon Rue! There were several photographers there. When two dignitaries meet, it's a photo opp and there are photographers galore. And do photographers at events like this take one picture and then move on? No. They take a rapid succession of pictures. So any other differences in Bush's appearance may have been because it was a second later. But regardless of your take on it, the picture of the lip-lock definately looks fake to more than one person on this thread - like someone photoshopped the two by moving them closer together to make it appear as if they were kissing on the lips. The video doesn't show this action taking place at all. You can cling to the belief that it's untouched, but I really don't think so.

Aside from that, the kissing on the cheeks is not that big of a deal. I beleive it's common practice in Europe and in other countries. It was a minor issue at the time because that simply isn't done in American culture. It's not the norm, so it was questioned. As was the hand holding. That sure does look strange, but if it's a common custom elsewhere, it's harmless, so no biggie. Guys hugging comes to mind for some reason. It wasn't acceptable for men to show their feelings like that many years ago, but it's becoming more and more acceptable and is not uncommon anymore. It doesn't shock people. Just my take on it.

The Obama bow, as I stated before, looks awkward and clumsy. Something happened there and it would be better for someone at the White House or even Obama himself to say, "Look, it was a slip, I was tired, I saw something on the floor . . ." whatever. Don't just deny it, explain it if people are making a big deal out of nothing. Again, just my take on it.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Bush had been described by reputable news sources as having kissed Crown Prince Abdullah and then going for a walk hand in hand:

"Plenty of eyebrows were raised by the body language Monday between President Bush and the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah. When the crown prince arrived, half an hour late, Mr. Bush greeted him with what the Associated Press described as "a warm embrace and a kiss on both cheeks." Then the pair were photographed holding hands while walking through a field of bluebonnets."

Hello Rue,

Your quote from your source about your photographed event.

Now, the picture always looked wrong to me, but the very article you posted in defense of the picture calls it a lie.

It seems, though, that I will never convince you. I suspect that your pride is keeping you from seeing the truth. It is not unusual to see people who are usually right take a lot of pride in the correctness of their stance.

You are usually right, Rue. You have a reason to take pride in your accuracy and moral superiority in most instances.

This isn't one of them. If I find I am wrong, I will tell you so, Rue. But I think you're wrong, and I think a desire to be right is keeping you from seeing it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"obviously the source for the lip-lock photoshop"

I will defer to your expertise. I looked at the two photos closely and saw many differences - Bush's eyes and mouth open v eyes and mouth closed, the prince's neck being extended and beard jutting out in one photo v the other, for example. I looked for an obvious shortening of the photo, which would be there if the distance between the two was photographically chopped out. It wasn't here.

To you it may be 'obvious'. To me it isn't. But since you insist, you have the final say.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:13 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I looked at the two photos closely and saw many differences - Bush's eyes and mouth open v eyes and mouth closed, the prince's neck being extended and beard jutting out in one photo v the other.

All such thing can be altered with the smear or liquefy tool, or pasting and blending in other elements. I have done this many times, so I hope your deference to my expertise is genuine and not facetious.
The biggest problem for me is the hard line between the bodies of the two men. It's a clear indicator of a chop-job, though it has been cropped out in the 'series' you posted. Please stop being tetchy at me and LOOK at it.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:25 AM

CITIZEN

It was photoshopped, get over it. It's about a thirty second job, two minutes if you wanted to use GIMP.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"The biggest problem for me is the hard line between the bodies of the two men." Uh - where ? No matter where I looked, I couldn't find that. All the photos I could find were cropped the same way.

No, I meant it - I wasn't being being techy. You (and Citizen and I forget who else) obviously have more experience with photo-altering.

And while this

and this

are obvious to me, the one I posted took a more exprienced eye than mine to see it.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:09 AM

CITIZEN

Blown up, with problem areas circled (not well, I had to use the mouse because the GIMP is shit and needs starting and restarting half a dozen times to get it to recognise my tablet. This seems an amateurish problem with many major GPL graphics packages, which is basically unforgivable).

There's a light area around the join, a sign that the faces have bee cut and lifted from a lighter background, and the join hasn't then been merged properly.

A big chunk of the head dress has been cut out, probably a marquee selection error.

The Windscreen has been chopped and duplicated, you can see part of the wiper has been duplicated and pasted lower down. It describes a fairly obvious triangle.

Further this image is clearly shopped from the one posted earlier. The eyes appear closed here, and open in the other, because a flesh colour has been overlayed. Look closely and the eye sockets and surrounding flesh are in the same position. Bush's hair is also identically positioned, you'd expect it to be slightly varied. Bush's mouth is also in the same position, but likewise has been partially hidden and adjusted with a flesh colour.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So, can we agree that these are at least the equal 'offense' to the office of the president as Obama's 'bow' ?

bowing

personal fealty

strange \ inappropriate behavior

strange \ inappropriate behavior

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:35 AM

RIPWASH

If you feel you must post the same pics over and over again to make your point . . . it's a bit obsessive.

I'll agree with you on the strange behavior (flipping the bird, chest bump, etc). Not very Presidential.

That second picture you claim is "bowing" to the Saudi Prince, however, is again in a video that I've seen. He bent over to accept the medal being placed around his neck then looked down at the medal. Like most people do when accepting medals to make it easier for the presenter to place it. Not bowing in the way you're implying. If that were the case then all Olympians could be accused of bowing to the medal presenters.

The holding hands and kissing cheeks I've addressed and won't bother to do so again.

I don't know what to make of Obama's gesture, whether it was intentional or not. It's odd beyond words and if he or the White House doesn't feel the need to explain it, then we'll be questioning it for all eternity.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:42 AM

CELLARDOOR

Holy crap, the thread title changing is ridiculously annoying. It'd be nice if at least forum thread titles were what they appear, but maybe that's asking too much. They say nothing is what it appears, but one exception would be nice...

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:51 AM

CITIZEN

Bowing is a often a sign of respect not fealty.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:51 AM

CHRISISALL

This is too ruttin' funny!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"If you feel you must post the same pics over and over again to make your point . . . it's a bit obsessive."

I was saving people the trouble of scrolling. (Also, I had replaced one picture.)

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:45 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

That second picture you claim is "bowing" to the Saudi Prince, however, is again in a video that I've seen. He bent over to accept the medal being placed around his neck...

...also known as "bowing" to accept the medal...

I'm just sayin'.

Are you SURE that Obama wasn't just bending down to take Abdullah's hand in a warm handshake and embrace? I mean, are you really SURE?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:50 PM

Quote:

But kiss on the cheeks? Hell, my parents were Cuban. Kisses on cheeks are like handshakes in my culture. Try kissing a dude on the mouth, though, and you'll get a collective gasp of disbelief and disgust.

Even if you follow it up by saying, "I know it was you, Fredo. I know you betrayed me!"

(Sorry, it was the Cuba and kissing on the lips thing... brought back all that Godfather II imagery...)

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think this is all Dodd's fault.

Or Saddam's.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Hello,

I have a picture proving that it is not.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I'm still catching up with the latest developments in this post, but this one deserves a special mention, just for being so damed funny!

Anthony, if you can keep your sense of humor while chaos ensues all around you, you'll come out just fine. My hat's off to you for the funniest thing I've read or seen today!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:41 PM

By the way, I think I was the first one to post the Bush-kissing-Abdullah picture in this thread, and I thought it was real. Citizen's blown-up version has me convinced that it's a fake, like PhoenixRose and others claimed.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:32 AM

RIPWASH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

That second picture you claim is "bowing" to the Saudi Prince, however, is again in a video that I've seen. He bent over to accept the medal being placed around his neck...

...also known as "bowing" to accept the medal...

I'm just sayin'.

Are you SURE that Obama wasn't just bending down to take Abdullah's hand in a warm handshake and embrace? I mean, are you really SURE?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Heck, Kwicko, I said several times I wasn't sure WHAT the guy was doing. I just looked too dang weird.

**Edit**
Besides . . . to me, a warm handshake would entail grasping the guys hand with both of mine (don't recall if Obama did that or not) and I'd only "bow" that low in order to do so if he was sitting in a chair. LOL

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 4:24 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

'S all right, much as I personally adore the program, that is the trouble with living in a Photoshop World

Moving on, I still think it was a stumble. I mean a literal one.
And, no, he didn't use both his hands in the handshake. Which is good, as someone said earlier, because use of the left hand would have been a far greater gaffe than anything.

[/sig]

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Thursday, September 3, 2009 5:34 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

So much for Secularism

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/01/obama-hosts-ramadan-dinne_n_2
74596.html

Here is the full text of Obama's remarks:

THE PRESIDENT: Please, everybody have a seat. Thank you. Well, it is my great pleasure to host all of you here at the White House to mark this special occasion -- Ramadan Kareem.

I want to say that I'm deeply honored to welcome so many members of the diplomatic corps, as well as several members of my administration and distinguished members of Congress, including the first two Muslims to serve in Congress -- Keith Ellison and Andre Carson. Where are they? (Applause.)

Just a few other acknowledgements I want to make. We have Senator Richard Lugar here, who's our Ranking Member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Where is Dick Lugar? There he is. (Applause.) Representative John Conyers, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee. (Applause.) Representative Rush Holt is here. Thank you, Rush. (Applause.) Have we found you a seat, Rush? (Laughter.)

REPRESENTATIVE HOLT: I'm on my way to the train. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: I got you.

We also have here -- Secretary of Defense Gates is here. Secretary Gates. (Applause.) Our Attorney General, Eric Holder. (Applause.) And Secretary of Health and Human Services, Kathleen Sebelius is here. (Applause.)

And most of all, I want to welcome all the American Muslims from many walks of life who are here. This is just one part of our effort to celebrate Ramadan, and continues a long tradition of hosting iftars here at the White House.

For well over a billion Muslims, Ramadan is a time of intense devotion and reflection. It's a time of service and support for those in need. And it is also a time for family and friends to come together in a celebration of their faith, their communities, and the common humanity that all of us share. It is in that spirit that I welcome each and every one of you to the White House.

Tonight's iftar is a ritual that is also being carried out this Ramadan at kitchen tables and mosques in all 50 states. Islam, as we know, is part of America. And like the broader American citizenry, the American Muslim community is one of extraordinary dynamism and diversity -- with families that stretch back generations and more recent immigrants; with Muslims of countless races and ethnicities, and with roots in every corner of the world.

Indeed, the contribution of Muslims to the United States are too long to catalog because Muslims are so interwoven into the fabric of our communities and our country. American Muslims are successful in business and entertainment; in the arts and athletics; in science and in medicine. Above all, they are successful parents, good neighbors, and active citizens.

So on this occasion, we celebrate the Holy Month of Ramadan, and we also celebrate how much Muslims have enriched America and its culture -- in ways both large and small. And with us here tonight, we see just a small sample of those contributions. Let me share a few stories with you briefly.

Elsheba Khan's son, Kareem, made the ultimate sacrifice for his country when he lost his life in Iraq. Kareem joined the military as soon as he finished high school. He would go on to win the Purple Heart and Bronze Star, along with the admiration of his fellow soldiers. In describing her son, Elsheba said, "He always wanted to help any way that he could." Tonight, he's buried alongside thousands of heroes in Arlington National Cemetery. A crescent is carved into his grave, just as others bear the Christian cross or the Jewish star. These brave Americans are joined in death as they were in life -- by a common commitment to their country, and the values that we hold dear.

One of those values is the freedom to practice your religion -- a right that is enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution. Nashala Hearn, who joins us from Muskogee, Oklahoma, took a stand for that right at an early age. When her school district told her that she couldn't wear the hijab, she protested that it was a part of her religion. The Department of Justice stood behind her, and she won her right to practice her faith. She even traveled to Washington to testify before Congress. Her words spoke to a tolerance that is far greater than mistrust -- when she first wore her headscarf to school, she said, "I received compliments from the other kids."

Another young woman who has thrived in her school is Bilqis Abdul-Qaadir. She's not even 5'5 -- where's Bilqis? Right here. Stand up, Bilqis, just so that we -- (laughter) -- I want everybody to know -- she's got heels on. She's 5'5 -- Bilqis broke Rebecca Lobo's record for the most points scored by any high school basketball player in Massachusetts history. (Applause.) She recently told a reporter, "I'd like to really inspire a lot of young Muslim girls if they want to play basketball. Anything is possible. They can do it, too." As an honor student, as an athlete on her way to Memphis, Bilqis is an inspiration not simply to Muslim girls -- she's an inspiration to all of us.

Of course, we know that when it comes to athletes who have inspired America, any list would include the man known simply as The Greatest. And while Muhammad Ali could not join us tonight, it is worth reflecting upon his remarkable contributions, as he's grown from an unmatched fighter in the ring to a man of quiet dignity and grace who continues to fight for what he believes -- and that includes the notion that people of all faiths holds things in common. I love this quote. A few years ago, he explained this view -- and this is part of why he's The Greatest -- saying, "Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams -- they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as religions do -- they all contain truths."

They all contain truths. Among those truths are the pursuit of peace and the dignity of all human beings. That must always form the basis upon which we find common ground. And that is why I am so pleased that we are joined tonight not only by so many outstanding Muslim Americans and representatives of the diplomatic corps, but people of many faiths -- Christians, Jews, and Hindus -- along with so many prominent Muslims.

Together, we have a responsibility to foster engagement grounded in mutual interest and mutual respect. And that's one of my fundamental commitments as President, both at home and abroad. That is central to the new beginning that I've sought between the United States and Muslims around the world. And that is a commitment that we can renew once again during this holy season.

So tonight, we celebrate a great religion, and its commitment to justice and progress. We honor the contributions of America's Muslims, and the positive example that so many of them set through their own lives. And we rededicate ourselves to the work of building a better and more hopeful world.

So thanks to all of you for taking the time to be here this evening. I wish you all a very blessed Ramadan. And with that, I think we can start a feast. I don't know what's on the menu, but I'm sure it will be good. (Laughter.) Thank you very much, everybody. (Applause.)

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Thursday, September 3, 2009 5:00 PM