REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Draining The Swamp

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Saturday, August 12, 2023 08:45
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Thursday, October 26, 2017 2:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
I'll hit you with one more for the day: Trump made a big show of saving jobs at Carrier in Indiana. He hasn't done that again. There are thousands of factories he could show up at to save jobs from being exported. But he hasn't done it because that's work, the work is not fun for Trump, and he never meant what he said about saving factory jobs in the first place. It was all about creating a show for Trump's amusement. Trump didn't do another Carrier because V.P. Pence, ex-governor of Indiana, did all the real work for Trump. Since Pence didn't have a second Indiana factory ready to save, Trump never saved another.

I was under the impression that factory jobs was an important part of Trump's appeal to Signym.


Nope! I wrote an extremely long post about why Trump would NOT be able to revive the economy, and I'll recap it for you here: In order to revive the economy, Trump would not only have to slap import duties on the specific sector(s) that he's aiming at- say, steel, chip fab, heavy-duty electrical grid components, autos, and cloth and clothing - he would have to somehow DIRECT INVESTMENT into those areas. Because, IMHO, "the market" doesn't respond in a timely manner; there's a huge lag between price rise and capital investment. So he would need to have a national bank to provide the appropriate loans to the right companies, for example. But NO political party would allow that, would they? Both Dems and Repubs are committed to "privatization", even when it doesn't work well (like in the health care sector).

There were three things I was hoping Trump would accomplish, because I believe they're extremely important and rbecause they're in any President's purview of foreign policy:

1) Kill TPP and TTIP. DONE. Those would have given up our sovereignty to trade tribunals. Also, it would be nice to extricate ourselves from NAFTA, CAFTA, and other "free trade" agreements.

2) Reverse illegal immigration. IN PROCESS.

3) End our endless wars. FAILURE.

I never thought that he would equalize wealth, revive manufacturing, revive our healthcare system, repair our infrastructure, or do all of those other domestic-agenda things that are beyond his capacity as President. Domestic affairs are Congress' purview.

I would have hoped that with this blatant attack on Trump, with the press blowing a blizzard of lies and the Dems putting up yet-another-fake-enemy (Russia!!!) and more identity politics for you to get tweaked about, you would have seen the seamy underbelly of your sainted Dems and the so-called "free" (bought-and-paid-for) press and hopefully would have learned to look at politics with a more critical eye. Instead, you got completely taken in by the shit show, and you haven't gained any insight at all.


EDITED TO ADD:

SECOND, I don't think you understand how important killing the TPP and TTIP was. There were clauses in both agreements that allowed industries to sue governments for interference in their ability to obtain normal and customary profits. The decisions would be made, not in some state or federal court, but in an secret trade tribunal, made up of trade lawyers who would be deciding solely on the basis of whether or not the agreement was upheld or not.

What does this mean?

Let's say that California adopts a law which requires petroleum products sold in the state not require more than a certain amount of carbon to extract and process. So, for example, petroleum products sourced from Canadian tar sands ... which require a prodigious amount of water and energy to extract and crack ... would not be able to be sold in CA. According to these trade agreements, a Canadian tar sands company would be able to sue to state of CA for interfering in its ability to obtain normal and customary profits. The dispute would be decided in a trade tribunal - probably in Singapore - and since the laws of CA aren't respected in the trade agreement, the decision would be found for the tar sands company.

Another example: The USA Federal government institutes a law barring child labor. A clothing manufacturer imports clothing made by child laborers, which are banned from entry. The clothing company sues the Federal government, AND WINS in trade tribunal based on the idea that the Federal laws interfere with the company's ability to pursue normal and customary profits.

The point is that, if those trade agreements were signed, all of your precious environmental, product safety, labor, and climate laws could be immediately shit-canned via lawsuits brought by affected companies, because - in those trade agreements - competitive pricing was supposed to be the only factor in purchases.

Now, since Obama and Hillary were all hot to trot for these agreements, what would be the point of making a show of passing all kinds of environmental, product safety, and labor laws, and entering into massive climate agreements, only to have these laws negated by trade agreement?

If you think this is theoretical, it's already happened to Australia, which got temporarily blocked from plain-packaging tobacco products when it was sued by Philip Morris. The only reason why Australia won that suit isn't because of anything in the trade agreement itself, but because of the huge political outcry that it caused. But under the TPP and TTIP agreements, you'd have to fight that fight every single time ... and win ... in order to make your regulations effective.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/18/australia-wins-
international-legal-battle-with-philip-morris-over-plain-packaging



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, October 27, 2017 6:38 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

How would you plan to raise taxes on the most wealthy 1% anyhow?
Are you a proponent of Consumption Tax?
Pick a tax. Any tax. Whatever tax you pick to target the 1 percenters' wealth, the wealthy will be enraged and energized to oppose. They will spread propaganda and outright falsehoods (backup by fake scholarly research) convincing the other 99%. That is why these things are the way they are, because the majority (but nowhere near all) of people in the lower 99% are gullible. The only thing the 99% know for sure is they want to pay less and the 1% can use that against the 99%. Works nearly every single time the 1% apply that plan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

Why You Shouldn't Count On Trump's Promised $4,000 'Raise' From GOP Tax Plan
www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559634802/why-you-shouldnt-count-on-the-promise
d-4-000-raise-from-gop-tax-plan


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Friday, October 27, 2017 7:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Pick a tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector. Any tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector. Whatever tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector you pick to target the 1 percenters' wealth, the wealthy will be enraged and energized to oppose. They will spread propaganda and outright falsehoods (backup by fake scholarly research) convincing the other 99%. That is why these things are the way they are, because the majority (but nowhere near all) of people in the lower 99% are gullible.
Wow, SECOND, you complain that OTHER people are gullible???

Ahem!



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, October 27, 2017 7:50 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

There were three things I was hoping Trump would accomplish, because I believe they're extremely important and rbecause they're in any President's purview of foreign policy:

1) Kill TPP and TTIP. DONE. Those would have given up our sovereignty to trade tribunals. Also, it would be nice to extricate ourselves from NAFTA, CAFTA, and other "free trade" agreements.
"Can everyone stop saying Donald Trump killed off the Trans-Pacific Partnership? He didn’t. It was already dead. Thanks to pressure from ordinary Americans – yes, it really does work – TPP already lay without a pulse on the floor of Congress. There is no need to congratulate Trump’s bigoted regime or pretend he has assembled a cabinet that isn’t teeming with corporate interests."
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/24/donald-trump-tpp-trans-p
acific-partnership-president-hillary-clinton

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 27, 2017 7:57 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Pick a tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector. Any tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector. Whatever tax war/ enemy/ victim subgroup/ regulation/ economic sector you pick to target the 1 percenters' wealth, the wealthy will be enraged and energized to oppose. They will spread propaganda and outright falsehoods (backup by fake scholarly research) convincing the other 99%. That is why these things are the way they are, because the majority (but nowhere near all) of people in the lower 99% are gullible.
Wow, SECOND, you complain that OTHER people are gullible???

Ahem!

Do you recall that I have often claimed to be of the 1% ? I continue to make that claim. I was trying to think of way to prove it. Finance Serenity 2? That would be a bad investment based on Serenity's boxoffice, especially if the new movie script follows the comics. Mal stands up against the entire Alliance in the comics. If it wasn't a comic, he'd be dead a dozen times. He's no tactical genius; he's just ridiculously lucky.

Despite voting for Democrats, I will accept my oversized share of Trump's tax cut, if and when it passes. You don't get to be a 1% if you don't take advantage of other people's gullibility. I'm not cheating them, like that old fraudster Trump. They give me their money and they don't sue afterwards, again, completely un-Trump-like.
www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump
-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/

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Friday, October 27, 2017 12:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You being a 1-percenter has nothing to do with being gullible or not. Seriously, I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. You've got your head stuck so far up the DNC's ass, you're looking out of its mouth.

There are two explanations for that:

1) You truly believe in the bleeding-heart liberal-victim-globalist political model, and you believe that the Dems are better than the Repubs. In that case, you're gullible.

2) Or you believe in the liberal-victim-globalist political model, to break everyone up into warring groups so that the elite [i.e you] can take over, in which case the Dems really DO represent your interests, and you just use them for political cover/ virtue signalling. In that case, you're a swamp creature.

So, which is it?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, October 27, 2017 1:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
How would you plan to raise taxes on the most wealthy 1% anyhow?
Are you a proponent of Consumption Tax?
Pick a tax. Any tax. Whatever tax you pick to target the 1 percenters' wealth, the wealthy will be enraged and energized to oppose. They will spread propaganda and outright falsehoods (backup by fake scholarly research) convincing the other 99%. That is why these things are the way they are, because the majority (but nowhere near all) of people in the lower 99% are gullible. The only thing the 99% know for sure is they want to pay less and the 1% can use that against the 99%. Works nearly every single time the 1% apply that plan.
Any tax.
Income Tax. The wealthy 1% have no need to work, or have income. They have enough to live on for years, many more years than the current or next administration will be in office. So no additional Income Tax will be collected from Zero Income. In fact, the existing Revenue from the current amount of taxed Income will evaporate. As Jayne pointed out in Pilot Serenity, a meager percent of something is better than 100% of Nothin. Remember Reaganomics.

Capital Gains Tax. If the wealthy choose to divest of Capital Investments, Zero Capital Gains will result. Again, a higher percentage of Zero is less than a meager percentage of something. Heard of the Great Depression?

Corporate Tax, or Tax on Profit. If their wealth is divested from productive Companies, Zero Profit will result. Again, Zero Tax revenue from Zero Profit.

In each case, increase of Tax RATE results in less Tax REVENUE, and productivity stagnates, and all of the 99%ers lose out on all of the income they could have had from the 1%ers allowing their money to work. Resulting in less Tax REVENUE from the 1%, more unemployment and less Tax REVENUE from the 99%, and more War from despots who sense a weak America. The 1% did not starve during the Great Depression, and their wealth was not at risk of confiscatory Taxes without it being invested.

So far, your Any Tax concept falls flat.
Which Tax were you going to increase to confiscate dollars from the wealthy?

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Friday, October 27, 2017 2:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You'd have to revamp the tax structure because it's far too easy for corporations and transnational elites to declare their profits in tax havens, or hide their wealth in "instant" subsidiaries and foundations (with fake histories and pro-forma boards) such as provided by banks like Mossack Fonseca. (I'm always referencing M-F NOT because it's unusual, simply because it had a large amount of internal documents leaked, which demonstrated its internal workings and how it provided these services.)

To make clear how this works, let's say you have a petroleum extraction company in the USA, and you want to avoid paying USA taxes. So what you do is sell your oil to an oil tanker subsidiary which flies the Panamanian flag, but you sell it for a really cheap price. So your USA taxes are low because the sale price is low. Your shipping company transports the oil to Japan, and sells it for a high price. It makes beaucoups bucks in profit, but because the subsidiary which made the profit is registered in Panama ... and there are no corporate taxes in Panama ... you get to keep nearly all of the profit that you made.

So there would have to be some definitional changes in where and how sales are made to avoid these various tax avoidance schemes.

If it were me, I'd simply drop the tax rate but also eliminate specialized deductions, exemptions, expenses, depreciations, subsidies, etc. which have been crafted to benefit big business, because the way it is right now only small and medium-sized business get nailed.

OH BTW- JSF- that concept that lower rates increase tax revenues has been disproved over and over and over again. That is a misapplication of a concept called the aptly-named "Laffer Curve". Every tax-cutting Republican President - including Reagan- sang that song, and every one of them was proved wrong, as demonstrated by the history of actual government revenues versus tax rates.

Before you forward an idea like this, it would be useful to look up actual numbers to see if it's been validated by reality.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, October 27, 2017 3:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Capital Gains Tax. If the wealthy choose to digest of Capital Investments, Zero Capital Gains will result. Again, a higher percentage of Zero is less than a meager percentage of something. Heard of the Great Depression?

Corporate Tax, or Tax on Profit. If their wealth is divested from productive Companies, Zero Profit will result. Again, Zero Tax revenue from Zero Profit.

. . . So far, your Any Tax concept falls flat.
Which Tax were you going to increase to confiscate dollars from the wealthy?
Your thinking is too much all or nothing. You can slowdown the 3 million American 1 percenters from tax-cheating and jerking America around in random directions by purchasing shares in their companies. Norway’s $1 Trillion sovereign wealth fund owns more than 1 percent of global stocks. If the USA had a sovereign wealth fund, the US government would have a great deal of say over how badly the 1 percenters run America and how much they can cheat on their taxes and how crappy they treat employees.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-27/norway-1-trillion-wealth-fu
nd-gains-3-2-as-stocks-soar-higher

Then the problem moves to who controls America’s sovereign fund. Trump’s philanthropy shows how untrustworthy he is with amounts under $6 million. It would be better to leave control in the hands of 3 million greedy, irrational American 1 percenters than transfer it to him, the greediest 1 percenter there is.
www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/washington-posts-david-fahrenth
old-wins-pulitzer-prize-for-dogged-reporting-of-trumps-philanthropy/2017/04/10/dd535d2e-1dfb-11e7-be2a-3a1fb24d4671_story.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 27, 2017 6:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Your thinking is too much all or nothing. You can slowdown the 3 million American 1 percenters from tax-cheating and jerking America around in random directions by purchasing shares in their companies. Norway’s $1 Trillion sovereign wealth fund owns more than 1 percent of global stocks.SECOND
It just goes to show that being rich and being smart aren't related. More about that in a bit ...

Quote:
If the USA had a sovereign wealth fund, the US government would have a great deal of say over how badly the 1 percenters run America and how much they can cheat on their taxes and how crappy they treat employees.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-27/norway-1-trillion-wealth-fu
nd-gains-3-2-as-stocks-soar-higher
Do you have any idea where Norway's sovereign wealth fund money came FROM? It came from Norway's nationalized oil industry.

Say, SECOND, how would you like your gas wells nationalized? If not that, which industry or industries do YOU suggest that the United States government nationalize, in order to get non-tax revenues for this sovereign wealth fund that you recommend?

Quote:
THE NORWAY MODEL
NORWAY IS THE odd man out in the Nordics. While its neighbours are flirting with free markets, Norway is embracing state capitalism. Its national oil champion, Statoil, is the largest company in the region. The Norwegian state owns large stakes in Telenor, the country’s biggest telephone operator, Norsk Hydro, its biggest aluminium producer, Yara, its biggest fertiliser- maker, and DnBNor, its biggest bank. It holds 37% of the Oslo stockmarket, but it also controls some non-listed giants such as Statkraft, a power-generator, which if listed would be the third-biggest company on the stockmarket.


Hubby and I both think that the government SHOULD nationalize some industries: oil and gas, electricity, and banking, to start with. That way, it could earn profits directly and not have to worry about winkling it out of the pockets of the greedy elite.

But I'm sure you would never agree to that, and neither would the Dems.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Saturday, October 28, 2017 4:00 AM

OONJERAH



Need to Impeach
Tom Steyer (1957) is an American hedge fund manager,
philanthropist, environmentalist, progressive activist, & fundraiser.

Trump Slams Tom Steyer as ‘Wacky,’ ‘Unhinged’ Amid Impeachment Campaign
  The progressive activist has launched an eight-figure television campaign that aims to build momentum for Trump’s impeachment.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-10-27/trump-sw
ipes-at-billionaire-tom-steyer-amid-impeachment-ad-campaign

Trump says Democratic donor airing impeachment ads on TV is ‘totally unhinged’
  ... “A Republican Congress once impeached a president for far less, and today people in Congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger,” Steyer says in the ad, which directs viewers to a NeedToImpeach website.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/10/27/trump-
says-democratic-donor-airing-impeachment-ads-on-tv-is-totally-unhinged/?utm_term=.7db77ab0194f

... oooOO}{OOooo ...
from the Tom Steyer Fan Club

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Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:17 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

It just goes to show that being rich and being smart aren't related. More about that in a bit ...

Do you have any idea where Norway's sovereign wealth fund money came FROM? It came from Norway's nationalized oil industry.

Say, SECOND, how would you like your gas wells nationalized? If not that, which industry or industries do YOU suggest that the United States government nationalize, in order to get non-tax revenues for this sovereign wealth fund that you recommend?
Just as a reminder, the Federal Government once owned most of the land west of the Mississippi, but it gave away the very best parts. There was your sovereign wealth fund. That give away of land was the origin of the swamp in Washington. The greediest Americans become owners of free land from the Federal Government. And it has worked very well for people like me. Maybe no so much for the other 99%.

There will eventually be another big give away that is even more valuable than all that land and doing nothing about it works best for the 1 percenters.

Can you image a solution to the following problem? A 1 percenter can and it would be to do nothing more than let them own everything. That has always been the default solution in Washington, because the alternative solutions require decades for the majority of the other 99 percent to coalesce around an alternative to doing nothing.
www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/you-will-lose-your-job-to-a-robot
-and-sooner-than-you-think/
I want to tell you straight off what this story is about: Sometime in the next 40 years, robots are going to take your job.

I don’t care what your job is. If you’re a magazine writer, a robot will write your articles better. If you’re a doctor, IBM’s Watson will be a better doctor than you. Artistic types? Robots will paint and write and sculpt better than you. Think you have social skills that no robot can match? Yes, they can. Within 20 years, maybe half of you will be out of jobs. A couple of decades after that, most of the rest of you will be out of jobs.

In one sense, this all sounds great. Let the robots have the damn jobs! No more dragging yourself out of bed at 6 a.m. or spending long days on your feet. We’ll be free to do whatever we want to do. And a century from now, this is most likely how things will turn out. Humanity will enter a golden age.

But what about 20 years from now? Or 30? We won’t all be out of jobs by then, but a lot of us will—and it will be no golden age. Until we figure out how to fairly distribute the fruits of robot labor, it will be an era of mass joblessness and mass poverty. Working-class job losses played a big role in the 2016 election, and if we don’t want a long succession of demagogues blustering their way into office because machines are taking away people’s livelihoods, this needs to change, and fast. Along with global warming, the transition to a workless future is the biggest challenge by far that progressive politics—not to mention all of humanity—faces. For conservative politics, it is NOT a challenge other than what are 1 percenters, who will own most of the robots, going to do with their enormous piles of money? I look forward to that day, but the other 99% might not.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:58 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Let me cut to the quick...

Trump is out to destroy the country, with Russia's help.

Anyone supporting that lying sack of shit, is doing the same. His is not about making this country great "again," it's always been great. You do have several lying sacks of shit from all sides - including and especially the alt-right.

That's it.


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I'm going to need time to unpack this......whatever you call it, response.
But I felt the need to comment, however briefly, on a few things...

And what exactly does this mean:
Quote:
Hell just froze over. Again!
It means that you agreed with me, and I agreed with you, again. For a second time. That doesn't happen very often!

Quote:
I don't view Trump as an honest, or even competent, politician.- SIGNY

I agree except, I think Trump is the worst of politicians. At least the parts he plays at. - SHINY
So, you prefer politicians say all the usual soothing things and who convince you that it's for you own good as they jam you with a stick? 'Cause I agree, Trump sucks at that part!

Quote:
But when you bring your own swamp with you, the OLD swampers don't let go of power without a fight.- SIGNY

I agree. Hell now will freeze over.- SHINY
Again!

Quote:
Establishment" Republicans were just as reluctant to allow Trump to the ascendancy as Democrats. Even now, the support that Trump has from the GOP is grudging, and Dems downright hate him: he's a DC outsider, an interloper. - SIGNY

An interloper he is, an outsider he's not. Interloper because nobody wanted him; for good reason...He's an idiot. He's made money in business, but he's a destroyer. He uses the system to "steal" his millions through chicanery and intimidation. It's a whole new ballgame when it comes to politics; of which he knows little, but he has pursued the presidency and has played the game (poorly, but he's played). He even said so himself; while addressing the US Coast Guard Academy recently - "No politician has been treated worse" in regards to the media attention(May 17, 2017).- SHINY
You're saying so many things in the comment, each one needs to be addressed independently.

Quote:
... nobody wanted him; for good reason...He's an idiot.

The swamp didn't want Trump because he's an idiot?
Baloney.
Trump could be a blithering idiot, like brain-burned GWB or pre-dementia Reagan, but ONLY if Trump didn't mind having someone's hand up his ass turning him into a sock-puppet ... like Cheney did to Bush II, and Bush I did to Reagan. If Trump allowed himself to be the human skin of the swamp, the swamp wouldn't mind HOW stupid he was! In fact, really stupid Presidents are more conveniently manipulated. IDIOCY is not the problem.

Quote:
He uses the system to "steal" his millions through chicanery and intimidation.
Unlike the Clintons, who apparently used every office they ever had to enrich themselves, leaving an unlikely trail of dead bodies behind them; finally using the State Department and the Clinton Foundation in a pay-to-play scheme whereby the Clintons stole BILLIONS from their "charity"?

Quote:
It's a whole new ballgame when it comes to politics; of which he knows little
Therefore, he's an outsider' you just said so yourself. Which do you prefer, SHINY: the person who smoothly convinces you that it's for your own good, as you get butt-fucked? Or the person who doesn't know how to whisper sweet nothings in your ear?

Quote:
"No politician has been treated worse" in regards to the media attention
This is probably true, but being treated badly by the press is not a reflection of ANY person's moral character, since the press is a duplicitous lying sack of corporate interest. The fact that the Press printed so many lies about Trump .... which btw is slowly coming to light .... tells me more about the press than about Trump. One thing it tell me is that one should NEVER trust the press!

In all of your comments so far, you quite obviously have not hit on the ones that I consider to be the most concerning.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Saturday, October 28, 2017 9:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


No One Says 'Stranger Things' Than Donald Trump



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, October 28, 2017 11:17 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And STILL no evidence.

HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 6:49 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And STILL no evidence.

HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?
There is plenty of evidence about what Trump is doing. Congressional Republicans can't stop talking about how Trump is the President who will make their dreams come true: House Speaker Paul Ryan said that “nothing is going to derail what we’re doing in Congress.” As far as he’s concerned, small matters like the integrity of the American political process and the rule of law are unimportant compared to the greater good of tax cuts for rich people and large corporations.
http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2017/oct/30/ryan-tax-reform-is-essential/

This should not come as a surprise to anyone familiar with Ryan’s history as a fanatical Ayn Rand acolyte. Ryan is a guy who states openly that he’s dreamed since his youth of depriving poor children of medical coverage.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/17/14960358/paul-ryan-medicaid-
keg

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 6:59 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Not to worry, Trump is about to keep his word about Draining the Swamp, although not quite the way he had in mind when he declared his run for the Top Man in all the land.

He's getting a great assist from a man called Mueller.

Drain the Swamp!


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And STILL no evidence.

HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?
There is plenty of evidence about what Trump is doing. Congressional Republicans can't stop talking about how Trump is the President who will make their dreams come true: House Speaker Paul Ryan said that “nothing is going to derail what we’re doing in Congress.” As far as he’s concerned, small matters like the integrity of the American political process and the rule of law are unimportant compared to the greater good of tax cuts for rich people and large corporations.
http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2017/oct/30/ryan-tax-reform-is-essential/

This should not come as a surprise to anyone familiar with Ryan’s history as a fanatical Ayn Rand acolyte. Ryan is a guy who states openly that he’s dreamed since his youth of depriving poor children of medical coverage.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/17/14960358/paul-ryan-medicaid-
keg

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Let me cut to the quick...
Trump is out to destroy the country, with Russia's help. - DULL
Let ME cut to the quick: Anyone who believes that is as gullible as those who believed that Saddam had WMD, that Noriega was a major drug runner, that Qaddafi was massacring his own people, and that the NSA respects the Constitution.

There are a lot of issues about which I vehemently disagree with Trump, and many campaign promises that I know he can't keep or hope he won't keep, and I have to say that he is probably the least Presidential man to be elected in recent history (although there've been a few drunkards and rowdies in the past).

But of all of the bad things you might believe about Trump, this is the one that I don't worry about. At all. The only thing I worry about is that a bunch of idiots will believe the propaganda and take their eye off the REAL ball, which is our common economic and social interests.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:57 PM

THGRRI


As the title suggests the swamp is being drained. The reality of it though is that it is Bob Mueller that is doing it not Trump. Trump and his crony crooks are the ones being flushed.






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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 1:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


DRAINING THE SWAMP

Both parties make up the swamp, And since Trump is a latecomer to DC, it's not possible for him to be part of the longstanding swamp that is Washington



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 1:59 PM

THGRRI


Everyone today who deflects the story away from Trump will be left with having to deal with why they did so in the face of what Mueller's investigation uncovers.

It will all come full circle. Fox news will be forced to capitulate. Isn't this exciting?





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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Capital Gains Tax. If the wealthy choose to digest of Capital Investments, Zero Capital Gains will result. Again, a higher percentage of Zero is less than a meager percentage of something. Heard of the Great Depression?

Corporate Tax, or Tax on Profit. If their wealth is divested from productive Companies, Zero Profit will result. Again, Zero Tax revenue from Zero Profit.

. . . So far, your Any Tax concept falls flat.
Which Tax were you going to increase to confiscate dollars from the wealthy?
Your thinking is too much all or nothing.
Still waiting to hear of your Tax.
Hailing Government as the Almighty Miracle Investment Vehicle is not a Tax.
"Investment" of tax dollars from the 99% is not a Tax on the 1%.

Are you admitting that you lied about a Tax that would confiscate more funds from the Wealthy, other than a reduced Tax RATE, or Consumption Tax?

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Everyone today who deflects the story away from Trump ...
Was Trump indicted? No?

If Mueller is doing is his job looking in an unbiased manner, he'll bird dog this down and capture swamp creatures of BOTH parties. Dirty Debbie and Imran. Hillary, Bill, and the Clinton Foundation. Both Podestas. Lobbyists of all stripes and sizes. Flynn (except Flynn may have been doing the deep state's bidding when it comes to Gulen and Turkey; we may never hear that story again.) Banks and bankers laundering money.

It's a swamp of longstanding. It's been in existence since the creation of the CIA. Many creatures have learned to make their home there.

***

Again, NOT A DEFENSE OF TRUMP. There are many things about which I disagree. Just a dispute with the hyperventilation and hysteria over a totally phony issue, which is simply diverting you from the real economic (jobs, manufacturing, debt) and security (terrorism, hegemony) issues at hand.

Sigh.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 6:34 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Again, NOT A DEFENSE OF TRUMP. There are many things about which I disagree. Just a dispute with the hyperventilation and hysteria over a totally phony issue, which is simply diverting you from the real economic (jobs, manufacturing, debt) and security (terrorism, hegemony) issues at hand.

Sigh.
You have convinced yourself that Trump had a real interest in real economic and real security issues, but phony issues are getting in Trump's way. Trump is a total fake. He never gives any attention to those real issues, which were Bannon's talking points to get Trump elected. He spends all his time thinking about himself and his personal fortune.

Since election day, congressional Republicans have been helping Donald Trump cover up something shady in his personal finances from years before the election and doing so without having any real idea what it is that’s being covered up.

What Trump worries about, according to many different accounts of his thinking, is what he always worries about — money and the prospect that the impunity for misconduct that he, like many other rich businessmen, has enjoyed throughout his career may not withstand the scrutiny that a President's history from before election always gets.

A Monday evening Associated Press account of Trump’s reaction to the day’s news said he “has become increasingly concerned that the Mueller probe could be moving beyond Russia to an investigation into his personal dealings,” citing “two people familiar with the president’s thinking.” A Washington Post article with three bylines says that “Trump is also increasingly agitated by the expansion of Mueller’s probe into financial issues beyond the 2016 campaign.” These remarks hark back to a July 19 interview with the New York Times in which Trump called any probing of his business affairs a “red line” that special counsel Robert Mueller shouldn’t cross.

A halfway decent president would voluntarily make meaningful financial disclosures. And a Congress with even a basic sense of self-preservation would force a president who refuses to make them to do so.

Unfortunately, at the moment, America has neither. We have Trump. And we have a cover-up in which Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and basically every single House and Senate Republican is complicit, even though they have no way to know what they are covering up.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/31/16579204/trump-finances-mue
ller

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Again, NOT A DEFENSE OF TRUMP. There are many things about which I disagree. Just a dispute with the hyperventilation and hysteria over a totally phony issue, which is simply diverting you from the real economic (jobs, manufacturing, debt) and security (terrorism, hegemony) issues at hand.

Sigh. - SIGNY

You have convinced yourself that Trump had a real interest in real economic and real security issues, - SECOND
EVERY TIME YOU TELL ME WHAT I THINK, YOU GET IT HEAD-BANGINGLY WRONG. And it doesn't seem to matter HOW MANY times I tell you ... over and over, you STILL get it wrong!

Can you stop hyperfocusing on Trump, for a moment?

FORGET Trump's interests. YOU have interests, REAL ones, and I absolutely-fucking-guarantee you it's not "Russia!!!"

Quote:
but phony issues are getting in Trump's way.- SECONDRATE
Phony issue are getting in YOUR way, hon.

Tell me, what interest do you have in constant wars in the Middle East (and elsewhere)?
What interest do you have in Ukraine?
What interest do you have in "The State of Freedom in Russia"? How is that any more meaningful than the state of freedom in Uganda? Or Honduras?

Are you saying that you DON'T have any interests closer to home, or more important? Or are you so laser-focused on the size of Trump's hands or his personal finances that you just. can't. seem. to. turn. your. attention. to. more. important. matters?



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Tuesday, October 31, 2017 8:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Signym, if you believed anything (anything at all) Trump said before or after election, you are stupid. I could modify that to gullible, but think stupid says it best.

Maybe you were attracted by Steve Bannon's thoughts coming from Trump's mouth? But Bannon doesn't coach Trump all day, every day, since he was fired. Now all we hear is Trump's thinking and it is indeed very chaotic, is it not?

If you think anyone on fireflyfans.net but you and 1kiki care much about US policy toward Ukraine, you are stupid. (There is the "s" word again) You find it impossible to ignite a conversation on a myriad of subjects because nobody cares much. It always ends with you being attacked by everyone except 1kiki because you are stupid about other people.

I will make believe that you're not stupid. Let's both pretend, shall we? We will dive in and out of the swamp quickly. Maybe a swamp leech will bite your ass and draw blood. And it is actually about why American military policy is an ineffectual mess:

America’s unthinking reverence for its fighters is forestalling a badly needed reappraisal of how it organises its forces, and to what end. The fact is, America’s foreign-policy doctrines envisage a degree of global dominance, based on military might, which its volunteer force is now too small to enforce. And to increase the force sufficiently, on current trends, appears unaffordable or impossible. “This force cannot carry out that foreign policy,” concludes Andrew Bacevich, a historian and former army officer, who happens also to be a Gold Star father.

This constitutes a looming crisis, which could logically end in one of two ways. Either America will have to reintroduce conscription. Or it must curtail its military ambitions. Neither outcome is palatable to American policymakers, however, so the problem is seldom discussed. Maintaining the happy delusion that America’s forces are ideal and irreproachable makes that easier. But reality cannot be deferred indefinitely.

www.economist.com/news/united-states/21730738-it-also-leads-lot-fuzzy-
thinking-about-armed-forces-americas-love-affair

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Signym, if you believed anything (anything at all) Trump said before or after election, you are stupid. I could modify that to gullible, but think stupid says it best. - SECOND
Is it possible for you to post ANYthing without mentioning Trump? Try, just try on your next post to see if you can.

Quote:
Maybe you were attracted by Steve Bannon's thoughts coming from Trump's mouth? But Bannon doesn't coach Trump all day, every day, since he was fired. Now all we hear is Trump's thinking and it is indeed very chaotic, is it not?
Trump is not your problem. I don't know WHAT your problem is, but it's very very deep-seated.

Quote:
If you think anyone on fireflyfans.net but you and 1kiki care much about US policy toward Ukraine, you are stupid.
Oh, for a while that's all GSTTRING, KRAPO, and THUGR could talk about. So I guess THEY must be really stupid!

Quote:
You find it impossible to ignite a conversation on a myriad of subjects because nobody cares much.
Except about Ukraine. And Russia. Next month who knows what it'll be about! Nobody seems to remember from month to month what they were all tweaked about!

Quote:
It always ends with you being attacked by everyone except 1kiki because most people here are bullies or trolls.

I will make believe that you're not stupid. That's MY stab at being a troll! How'd I do?

... America’s unthinking reverence for its fighters is forestalling a badly needed reappraisal of how it organizes its forces, and to what end. The fact is, America’s foreign-policy doctrines envisage a degree of global dominance, based on military might, which its volunteer force is now too small to enforce. And to increase the force sufficiently, on current trends, appears unaffordable or impossible. “This force cannot carry out that foreign policy,” concludes Andrew Bacevich, a historian and former army officer, who happens also to be a Gold Star father.

This constitutes a looming crisis, which could logically end in one of two ways. Either America will have to reintroduce conscription. Or it must curtail its military ambitions. Neither outcome is palatable to American policymakers, however, so the problem is seldom discussed. Maintaining the happy delusion that America’s forces are ideal and irreproachable makes that easier. But reality cannot be deferred indefinitely.


So, if you see that as a fundamental American problem, did Trump create it?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:18 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


So, let me get this straight.....you mean to say that Russia doesn't have a care in the world and is totally fine with our way of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Oh goody gum drops! Golly gee Batman, they are good guys after all.

I'm sorry I ever doubted Comrade Putin.


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Let me cut to the quick...
Trump is out to destroy the country, with Russia's help. - DULL
Let ME cut to the quick: Anyone who believes that is as gullible as those who believed that Saddam had WMD, that Noriega was a major drug runner, that Qaddafi was massacring his own people, and that the NSA respects the Constitution.

There are a lot of issues about which I vehemently disagree with Trump, and many campaign promises that I know he can't keep or hope he won't keep, and I have to say that he is probably the least Presidential man to be elected in recent history (although there've been a few drunkards and rowdies in the past).

But of all of the bad things you might believe about Trump, this is the one that I don't worry about. At all. The only thing I worry about is that a bunch of idiots will believe the propaganda and take their eye off the REAL ball, which is our common economic and social interests.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:31 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Not according to "our experts" Thgrri.

We are the gullible ones for even thinking that this administration is guilty of any wrongdoing. Not enough time to develop....no, "establish" those nasty habits
that long has been a staple of "both" parties. Trump and his merry band of angels
have bent over backwards to move this country forward (Sarah said so, several times).

I don't know about you, but I've always had trouble detecting "fact from fiction"
I AM TRULY GULLIBLE.

Boy, does that feel good to admit. Finally I see the light. Now I can concentrate on the "truth" - it's out there!

And Fox News, now there's a very together media outlet. They have their collective finger on the pulse of the nation. How could I have been so blind?

(Hey Thgrri, did that come off as too sarcastic? I could never tell)


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Everyone today who deflects the story away from Trump will be left with having to deal with why they did so in the face of what Mueller's investigation uncovers.

It will all come full circle. Fox news will be forced to capitulate. Isn't this exciting?





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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
So, let me get this straight.....you mean to say that Russia doesn't have a care in the world and is totally fine with our way of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Oh goody gum drops! Golly gee Batman, they are good guys after all.

I'm sorry I ever doubted Comrade Putin.- DULL


Do you really... REALLY ... think this is the problem we have with Russia - that they're jealous of our freedoms?

That's a serious question, by the way.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 8:29 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
So, let me get this straight.....you mean to say that Russia doesn't have a care in the world and is totally fine with our way of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Oh goody gum drops! Golly gee Batman, they are good guys after all.

I'm sorry I ever doubted Comrade Putin.- DULL


Do you really... REALLY ... think this is the problem we have with Russia - that they're jealous of our freedoms?

That's a serious question, by the way.
As the world marks the centenary of the October Revolution, Russia is once again under the rule of the tsar.
www.economist.com/news/leaders/21730645-world-marks-centenary-october-
revolution-russia-once-again-under-rule

A century isn't enough time to change the Russian peasants. America has the same problem, a vast army of ignoramuses, P. T. Barnum's suckers born every minute. If an American can’t read or add and subtract, their life is difficult because they can’t understand what a literate person can. Likewise, there are Americans who can’t read Trump, calculate that he is a liar, and see that he is conning them. Feel sad for them because they were being conned long before Trump.

Their lives are frustrating because they can’t understand being conned by businesses, TV, bosses at their jobs, banks, etc. Too bad for them, but good for the conmen and the greatest conman of 2016, Donald J Trump. Trump now needs an exit strategy to get out of town before the people he cheated realize what happened to their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Nope. I guess you CAN'T write a post without mentioning Trump! Despite the fact that he's a mere interloper in a decades-old swamp, and had no hand (politically, anyway) in creating the problems we're facing.

Tell me, SECONDRATE, if Trump was the "greatest conman of 2016" [interesting that you had to limit that to one year...] who was the greatest conman of 2015?

Or putting it another way, who is the greater conman? The one that many people think is a conman, or the one that many people believe is a saint?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 11:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This is what I find so disturbing about you all: what you seem to be terrified of is that you might have been exposed to - *GASP!* - new ideas!

So Russia injected something like 0.1% of content into the media (social or otherwise) of 2016?

So what?

Do you think Russia is the only one representing their POV internationally? What do you think WE do, broadcasting Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty, and putting CIA staff on media payroll overseas? What do you think WE do, opining away during the campaign about the [un]suitability of Marine Le Pen as leader of France? Do you really think that we don't attempt to sway elections - or social movements - using every means at our disposal?

You guys are mental marshmallows. If you had put just the teensiest of thought into questions like ...

What are our biggest problems?
Who caused them, and how can we fix them?
How can I tell truth from lies?
What are my moral standards? Am I applying them even-handedly?
Why do I believe the things that I believe?

... you wouldn't be so terrified of having your "thoughts" (and I use the term loosely) contaminated by some random tweet from who-knows-where; maybe Russia maybe the CIA. But there you are, terrified that the propaganda in your brain might get slightly askew because some thought from somewhere impinged on it. So you're willing to let Google and Twitter and FB scrub information for you, censoring out the things that might make you - and the deep state - uncomfortable, instead of learning how to LOGICALLY filter the information for yourself.

What has disappeared from the news?
Why is there a sudden intense media campaign on a certain topic, even if nothing has changed or the topic is unimportant?
Does this item make sense, even with a back-of-the envelope estimation?
Are these opinions, allegations, or actual evidence?
Is anyone moving the goalposts?
What are the contradictions within this item, and where does it contradict other items from the same source?
Who has lied to me in the past? How can I not be fooled in the future?
Who benefits?

You need to be more robust. (Just like our economy needs to be more robust.) You need to be asking yourselves difficult questions, and answering them with something more than conditioned response. In that sense, I agree with SECOND about the mental fitness of most Americans. Maybe you should start out with the understanding that there IS a swamp, and that the politicians that you insist on reacting to as if they were your surrogate daddies and mommies think of you as nothing more than exploitable peons.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 12:08 PM

THGRRI






Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is what I find so disturbing about you all: what you seem to be terrified of is that you might have been exposed to - *GASP!* - new ideas!

So Russia injected something like 0.1% of content into the media (social or otherwise) of 2016?

So what?

Do you think Russia is the only one representing their POV internationally? What do you think WE do, broadcasting Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty, and putting CIA staff on media payroll overseas? What do you think WE do, opining away during the campaign about the [un]suitability of Marine Le Pen as leader of France? Do you really think that we don't attempt to sway elections - or social movements - using every means at our disposal?

You guys are mental marshmallows. If you had put just the teensiest of thought into questions like ...

What are our biggest problems?
Who caused them, and how can we fix them?
How can I tell truth from lies?
What are my moral standards? Am I applying them even-handedly?
Why do I believe the things that I believe?

... you wouldn't be so terrified of having your "thoughts" (and I use the term loosely) contaminated by some random tweet from who-knows-where; maybe Russia maybe the CIA. But there you are, terrified that the propaganda in your brain might get slightly askew because some thought from somewhere impinged on it. So you're willing to let Google and Twitter and FB scrub information for you, censoring out the things that might make you - and the deep state - uncomfortable, instead of learning how to LOGICALLY filter the information for yourself.

What has disappeared from the news?
Why is there a sudden intense media campaign on a certain topic, even if nothing has changed or the topic is unimportant?
Does this item make sense, even with a back-of-the envelope estimation?
Are these opinions, allegations, or actual evidence?
Is anyone moving the goalposts?
What are the contradictions within this item, and where does it contradict other items from the same source?
Who has lied to me in the past? How can I not be fooled in the future?
Who benefits?

You need to be more robust. (Just like our economy needs to be more robust.) You need to be asking yourselves difficult questions, and answering them with something more than conditioned response. In that sense, I agree with SECOND about the mental fitness of most Americans. Maybe you should start out with the understanding that there IS a swamp, and that the politicians that you insist on reacting to as if they were your surrogate daddies and mommies think of you as nothing more than exploitable peons.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake







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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 12:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
You need to be asking yourselves difficult questions, and answering them with something more than conditioned response.- SIGNY

Now THAT'S funny!- THUGR
Well, we can see that THUGR not only didn't rise to the challenge, he didn't even understand it! But hey, thanks for the bump!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Tell me, SECONDRATE, if Trump was the "greatest conman of 2016" [interesting that you had to limit that to one year...] who was the greatest conman of 2015?

Or putting it another way, who is the greater conman? The one that many people think is a conman, or the one that many people believe is a saint?
Paul Ryan wins for 2015. He is in the news today. House Republicans were supposed to unveil their tax proposal today, but it has been put off.

They’re delaying because on the verge of trying to pass a huge change in the U.S. tax system, they still haven’t settled on key parts of the proposal — specifically, how to pay for huge corporate tax cuts and large cuts to wealthy individuals.

But wait — how is this possible? Republicans, and specifically Paul Ryan, the speaker of the House, have been talking about tax “reform” and putting out white papers for years — actually, since 2010. How can basic things be up in the air at this late date?

The answer, of course, is that Ryan and friends have been faking it all these years. Has Ryan been swamped by the complexity of the task? Or is Ryan the swamp? Impossible to tell for sure without a lie detector. But I'll say he is a great conman. Maybe he will be the Greatest Conman of 2017! Only two months to go and his competition is Trump.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-01/tax-bill-delay-deals-gop-se
tback-even-before-hell-breaks-loose

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:11 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


You know Siggy, you make me laugh (well, it's better than you making me sick I guess). Actually, strike that.....

It pisses me off! You think that you've cornered the market in critical thinking, and that you are the only one that understands the fits and starts of the world.
Yeah, I fool around and make quirky comments because that's what I choose to do; I have my reasons. But don't kid yourself, don't think for an instant that I don't get what's going on.

I choose when and how I respond. I choose the what, when and where...my choice!

Mental marshmallows!? Where'd you get that...a Cracker Jacks box! Puh-lease!
Delusions of grandeur.

Let me leave before I let loose the Dogs of War (I got that from the movie Gladiator) Ha! I kill me!

Keep on Trucking!


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is what I find so disturbing about you all: what you seem to be terrified of is that you might have been exposed to - *GASP!* - new ideas!

So Russia injected something like 0.1% of content into the media (social or otherwise) of 2016?

So what?

Do you think Russia is the only one representing their POV internationally? What do you think WE do, broadcasting Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty, and putting CIA staff on media payroll overseas? What do you think WE do, opining away during the campaign about the [un]suitability of Marine Le Pen as leader of France? Do you really think that we don't attempt to sway elections - or social movements - using every means at our disposal?

You guys are mental marshmallows. If you had put just the teensiest of thought into questions like ...

What are our biggest problems?
Who caused them, and how can we fix them?
How can I tell truth from lies?
What are my moral standards? Am I applying them even-handedly?
Why do I believe the things that I believe?

... you wouldn't be so terrified of having your "thoughts" (and I use the term loosely) contaminated by some random tweet from who-knows-where; maybe Russia maybe the CIA. But there you are, terrified that the propaganda in your brain might get slightly askew because some thought from somewhere impinged on it. So you're willing to let Google and Twitter and FB scrub information for you, censoring out the things that might make you - and the deep state - uncomfortable, instead of learning how to LOGICALLY filter the information for yourself.

What has disappeared from the news?
Why is there a sudden intense media campaign on a certain topic, even if nothing has changed or the topic is unimportant?
Does this item make sense, even with a back-of-the envelope estimation?
Are these opinions, allegations, or actual evidence?
Is anyone moving the goalposts?
What are the contradictions within this item, and where does it contradict other items from the same source?
Who has lied to me in the past? How can I not be fooled in the future?
Who benefits?

You need to be more robust. (Just like our economy needs to be more robust.) You need to be asking yourselves difficult questions, and answering them with something more than conditioned response. In that sense, I agree with SECOND about the mental fitness of most Americans. Maybe you should start out with the understanding that there IS a swamp, and that the politicians that you insist on reacting to as if they were your surrogate daddies and mommies think of you as nothing more than exploitable peons.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:15 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Hey Thgrri,

Good one! But did you see the "mental marshmallow" crack? I do believe that the cheese has slipped off someone's cracker.


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:




Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is what I find so disturbing about you all: what you seem to be terrified of is that you might have been exposed to - *GASP!* - new ideas!

So Russia injected something like 0.1% of content into the media (social or otherwise) of 2016?

So what?

Do you think Russia is the only one representing their POV internationally? What do you think WE do, broadcasting Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty, and putting CIA staff on media payroll overseas? What do you think WE do, opining away during the campaign about the [un]suitability of Marine Le Pen as leader of France? Do you really think that we don't attempt to sway elections - or social movements - using every means at our disposal?

You guys are mental marshmallows. If you had put just the teensiest of thought into questions like ...

What are our biggest problems?
Who caused them, and how can we fix them?
How can I tell truth from lies?
What are my moral standards? Am I applying them even-handedly?
Why do I believe the things that I believe?

... you wouldn't be so terrified of having your "thoughts" (and I use the term loosely) contaminated by some random tweet from who-knows-where; maybe Russia maybe the CIA. But there you are, terrified that the propaganda in your brain might get slightly askew because some thought from somewhere impinged on it. So you're willing to let Google and Twitter and FB scrub information for you, censoring out the things that might make you - and the deep state - uncomfortable, instead of learning how to LOGICALLY filter the information for yourself.

What has disappeared from the news?
Why is there a sudden intense media campaign on a certain topic, even if nothing has changed or the topic is unimportant?
Does this item make sense, even with a back-of-the envelope estimation?
Are these opinions, allegations, or actual evidence?
Is anyone moving the goalposts?
What are the contradictions within this item, and where does it contradict other items from the same source?
Who has lied to me in the past? How can I not be fooled in the future?
Who benefits?

You need to be more robust. (Just like our economy needs to be more robust.) You need to be asking yourselves difficult questions, and answering them with something more than conditioned response. In that sense, I agree with SECOND about the mental fitness of most Americans. Maybe you should start out with the understanding that there IS a swamp, and that the politicians that you insist on reacting to as if they were your surrogate daddies and mommies think of you as nothing more than exploitable peons.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake







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Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Mental marshmallows!? Where'd you get that.- DULL
Well, that's what SECOND has been saying, in essence, even if not using that phrase.

Just go check out his posts. He says it, over and over: Americans are stupid. And you're American, right?

I just decided to stop defending "Americans" from SECOND's amply-displayed disgust!


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:42 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Mental marshmallows!? Where'd you get that.- DULL
Well, that's what SECOND has been saying, in essence, even if not using that phrase.

Just go check out his posts. He says it, over and over: Americans are stupid. And you're American, right?

I just decided to stop defending "Americans" from SECOND's amply-displayed disgust!
Trump's approval rating hovers around 35%. That doesn't mean 35% are stupid; it could be less. But a nation really will have problems that last far beyond Trump's lifetime when that many people approve of him. Those Trump approvers can push America into some awfully weird decisions when guided by their Congressional conmen.

Just to drive the point in about (some) Americans and their understanding of (some) American history:
www.theatlantic.com/notes/2017/11/five-books-to-make-you-less-stupid-a
bout-the-civil-war/544628/

On Monday, the retired four-star general and White House Chief of Staff John Kelly asserted that “the lack of an ability to compromise lead to the Civil War.” This was an incredibly stupid thing to say. Worse, it built on a long tradition of endorsing stupidity in hopes of making Americans stupid about their own history. Stupid enjoys an unfortunate place in the highest ranks of American government these days. And while one cannot immediately affect this fact, one can choose to not hear stupid things and quietly nod along. . . .

Battle Cry Of Freedom: Arguably among the greatest single-volume histories in all of American historiography, James McPherson’s synthesis of the Civil War is a stunning achievement. Brisk in pace. A big-ass book that reads like a much slimmer one. The first few hundred pages offer a catalogue of evidence, making it clear not just that the white South went to war for the right to own people, but that it warred for the right to expand the right to own people. Read this book. You will immediately be less stupid than some of the most powerful people in the West Wing.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 2, 2017 9:57 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Just go check out his posts. He says it, over and over: Americans are stupid. And you're American, right?

I just decided to stop defending "Americans" from SECOND's amply-displayed disgust!
What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter?

Different polls find different things, and it’s always difficult to distinguish what people really believe from what they say on surveys. But if 30 percent of America’s 200 million registered voters are Republicans, and 40 percent of those don’t believe Obama was born in the US, well, that’s 24 million people, among them the most active participants in Republican politics.

In short, an increasingly large chunk of Americans believes a whole bunch of crazy things, and it is warping our politics. More examples of crazy things here: www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-c
risis

This basic story has been told plenty of times, but the reason we should not let it out of our sights right now is the Mueller investigation. We are disturbingly close to the following scenario:

Say Mueller reveals hard proof that the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with Russia, strategically using leaked emails to hurt Clinton’s campaign. Say the president — backed by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Fox News, Breitbart, most of the US Cabinet, half the panelists on CNN, most of the radio talk show hosts in the country, and an enormous network of Russian-paid hackers and volunteer shitposters working through social media — rejects the evidence.

They might say Mueller is compromised. It’s a Hillary/”deep state” plot. There’s nothing wrong with colluding with Russia in this particular way. Dems did it first. All of the above. Whatever.

Say the entire right-wing media machine kicks to life and dismisses the whole thing as a scam — and conservatives believe them. The conservative base remains committed to Trump, politicians remain scared to cross the base, and US politics remains stuck in partisan paralysis, unable to act on what Mueller discovers.

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? Do we drown in The Swamp?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 3, 2017 5:52 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well put Second. This is the scenario that I see coming down the pike. I watched an expert in media and propaganda say something close to your assessment; but he stressed that the Trump Administration is following a familiar pattern of advertising - repeat the message consistently, pound it into the mind of the audience and after a while it will become reality - or some such.

Much like the "Fake News" mantra that is gobbled up by the Trump faithful.

It is the old Jedi Mind Trick.......ad infinitum!


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Just go check out his posts. He says it, over and over: Americans are stupid. And you're American, right?

I just decided to stop defending "Americans" from SECOND's amply-displayed disgust!
What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter?

Different polls find different things, and it’s always difficult to distinguish what people really believe from what they say on surveys. But if 30 percent of America’s 200 million registered voters are Republicans, and 40 percent of those don’t believe Obama was born in the US, well, that’s 24 million people, among them the most active participants in Republican politics.

In short, an increasingly large chunk of Americans believes a whole bunch of crazy things, and it is warping our politics. More examples of crazy things here: www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-c
risis

This basic story has been told plenty of times, but the reason we should not let it out of our sights right now is the Mueller investigation. We are disturbingly close to the following scenario:

Say Mueller reveals hard proof that the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with Russia, strategically using leaked emails to hurt Clinton’s campaign. Say the president — backed by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Fox News, Breitbart, most of the US Cabinet, half the panelists on CNN, most of the radio talk show hosts in the country, and an enormous network of Russian-paid hackers and volunteer shitposters working through social media — rejects the evidence.

They might say Mueller is compromised. It’s a Hillary/”deep state” plot. There’s nothing wrong with colluding with Russia in this particular way. Dems did it first. All of the above. Whatever.

Say the entire right-wing media machine kicks to life and dismisses the whole thing as a scam — and conservatives believe them. The conservative base remains committed to Trump, politicians remain scared to cross the base, and US politics remains stuck in partisan paralysis, unable to act on what Mueller discovers.

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? Do we drown in The Swamp?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 3, 2017 6:17 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well Siggy, since you often twist the meaning of things people post, I will check it.

Actually, I'm an alien.....Kryptonian to be exact.


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Mental marshmallows!? Where'd you get that.- DULL
Well, that's what SECOND has been saying, in essence, even if not using that phrase.

Just go check out his posts. He says it, over and over: Americans are stupid. And you're American, right?

I just decided to stop defending "Americans" from SECOND's amply-displayed disgust!


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 3, 2017 2:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


An interesting interview about the swamp, economics and other issues



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 3, 2017 2:16 PM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

And interesting interview about the swamp, economics and other issues


Not if you posted it comrade. Try cleaning up your corrupt Russia. It needs draining so much more. Stop criticizing America and Americans. We'll police our own if you don't mind.







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Friday, November 3, 2017 3:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
And interesting interview about the swamp, economics and other issues- SIGNY

Not if you posted it comrade. Try cleaning up your corrupt Russia. It needs draining so much more. Stop criticizing America and Americans. We'll police our own if you don't mind. - THUGR
Ha ha. You represent everything that SECOND criticizes about Americans: willfully ignorant, intellectually flabby, and completely propagandized. You refuse to recognize corruption when it stares you in the face, so what makes me think you're capable of "cleaning it up" anywhere?

Why don't you clean up your own morals first? Because as far as I can tell you're pretty damn corrupt yourself.






-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 3, 2017 3:39 PM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
And interesting interview about the swamp, economics and other issues- SIGNY

Not if you posted it comrade. Try cleaning up your corrupt Russia. It needs draining so much more. Stop criticizing America and Americans. We'll police our own if you don't mind. - THUGR
Ha ha. You represent everything that SECOND criticizes about Americans: willfully ignorant, intellectually flabby, and completely propagandized. You refuse to recognize corruption when it stares you in the face, so what makes me think you're capable of "cleaning it up" anywhere?

Why don't you clean up your own morals first? Because as far as I can tell you're pretty damn corrupt yourself.





A sip-up comrade. Over the years you've had many. Nothing in your post suggests you are American. Only that you hate Americans and are not one.

As for corruption, Russia is so corrupt it functions more like the mob than a country. So don't make me laugh so hard I piss myself by comparing us in any way with you.






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Friday, November 3, 2017 4:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Once again, THUGR fails reading comprehension. I didn't say that I "hate" Americans, I said that SECOND did. Just re-read SECOND's posts: Disdain for "Americans" drips from many of them, along with its corollary - disdain for the results of a democratic process.

And I don't "hate" Americans in general. OTOH, I find YOU, personally and specifically, disgusting.

And stupid. Really, really stupid, Willfully so. Anyone who can imagine that I'm a "Russian troll" when I've been posting here since 2002 ... well, that certainly speaks to why you've been so propagandized. When does common sense ever kick in for you? Never?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 3, 2017 4:15 PM

THGRRI


Now you're just a bore. It's your actions that count. And they scream Russian troll.


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Once again, THUGR fails reading comprehension. I didn't say that I "hate" Americans, I said that SECOND did. Just re-read SECOND's posts: Disdain for "Americans" drips from many of them, along with its corollary - disdain for the results of a democratic process.

And I don't "hate" Americans in general. OTOH, I find YOU, personally and specifically, disgusting.

And stupid. Really, really stupid, Willfully so. Anyone who can imagine that I'm a "Russian troll" when I've been posting here since 2002 ... well, that certainly speaks to why you've been so propagandized. When does common sense ever kick in for you? Never?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake







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Friday, November 3, 2017 7:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Now you're just a bore. It's your actions that count.
Oh, you mean excluding my ACTIONS here in 2002? 2003? 2004? 2005? No explanation for those?

That's your problem .... you're way too selective in the information that you absorb. You ignore everything that argues against your POV, even if it's irrefutable. Consequently, you'll never learn. Like I said: willfully ignorant.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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