And you thought OUR election was fun!! by Geezer

It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.

The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.

Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.

The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.

Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.

Hmmm..lets look at the differences noted by the OSCE about the American elections and those addressed about the Ukrainian elections:

Ukrainian elections:
http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547

Quote:
KYIV, 22 November 2004 - The second round of the presidential election in Ukraine on 21 November did not meet a considerable number of OSCE commitments, Council of Europe and other European standards for democratic elections. As in the first round, state executive authorities and the Central Election Commission displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election process, concluded the International Election Observation Mission in a preliminary statement released today.

American elections:

http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2004/11/3779_en.pdf

Quote:
Allegations about voter disenfranchisement and so-called voter suppression were also
widely aired. It was claimed that such practices included non-processing of voter
registration applications, the improper removal of eligible voters from voter lists,
harassment and intimidation of voters.
While recognizing the seriousness of the above allegations, the EOM was not
provided with first-hand evidence to substantiate them or to demonstrate that such
practices were widespread or systematic.

Quote:
Election day was characterized by very high turnout, resulting in long queues and
pressure on poll workers at some polling stations. It seems likely that protracted
waiting periods may have deterred or prevented some voters from participating in the
election, particularly those who were working on 2 November and were not given
time off by their employers. The EOM commends both the patience of voters who
waited to cast their vote, in some cases for several hours, and the commitment of poll
workers under difficult conditions.
EOM observation reports indicated that the electoral process was orderly and
peaceful.

Ghoulman..if you could spend less time being an antagonist (a.k.a. Troll) with frivolous incendiary claims, it would be appreciated.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 2:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I can only pass this on second-hand, but I heard a couple things about OUR election that greatly disturbed me. I will try to pass them on as accurately as I can remember.

The first is that the exit polls did not match actual tallies, but this happened ONLY IN CONTESTED STATES. There were 11 states in all, three (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania) were examined in detail by a UPenn statistician who found those exit poll particulars* accidentally left on a media website. (*N, variance, historical accuracy and so forth.) In all cases, the exits polls show Kery with higher votes than had been tabluated.

Given the possible error in both exit polls and tabulation, this prof calculated that the individual chances of each exit poll being wrong was on the order of about 1-3 in 1000, but that the chance of ALL three of them being wrong in the same direction was 1 in 250,000,000.

The second story I heard was that a citizen's group was interested in looking at the actual tabulated votes in a Florida county. After getting the run-around from county officials for a few days ("Oh, you wanted to see the ORIGINALS...?") they finally got to the warehouse where the rolls were kept. Making a long story short, they got to see some of the rolls that were presented as the actual tabulations (signed and dated), but found more (signed, dated) rolls in the trash that were the supposedly counting the same votes, but with big differences between the two final numbers. Ulitimately they were thrown out by the police for "trespass" (altho they had made an appointment and were there with county officials). This would pretty mcuh be "he said/ she said" if the citizens' group hadn't brought a videocam along and recorded most of the event.

I was ready to concede the election, but after hearing all this, I'm not sure Bush really won.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 4:20 PM

The problem with stories that are "heard" is that they become more skewed, the more they are told. I'd be interested to see the actual story and see how the "Stories" were independently authenticated. Please don't misunderstand me.. I'm not accusing you of misconstruing information. I'm merely looking for some more solid info, other then some he said she said stories.

There are far too many people with an axe to grind for whatever reason..when that happens you have fabrications similar to the now infamous Rathergate.

If election fraud was that apparent, the media would be destroying Bush right now. It's pretty well known that alot of the media elite would give their eyeteeth and their children's first born to bury old GW as well as get their grubby corrupt lttle hands on a story of that value hehe. Personally, if the facts played out that fraud was committed.. I'd expect to see an ole Bush press conference, where he waves his hands in the air and says " I'm not a crook!" LOL

Also..the statistics seem very skewed. With only 3 states or 10 states for that matter..going from 1 in 3 to 1 in 250,000,000 seems out of line. Time to check with my local bean counter to see if thats even possible..

Links please..

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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 4:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oops. The stats were; For Ohio the chance was 1/1000, for Florida 2/1000 and for Penn 3/1000 (or something like that). For all to occur together in the same direction 1/250,000,000.

I'll see if I can find a source.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Ghoulman..if you could spend less time being an antagonist (a.k.a. Troll) with frivolous incendiary claims, it would be appreciated.

That's not the definition of a troll.

Connerflynn, I and many people are not buying the bullshit that the mainstream has sold to America. The election was stolen, it's rather obvious.

The fact that the Ukrainian people just showed the USA the difference is all I was pointing out.

Since you are ignorant...
TROLL
Usage of the word is various. In some usage, a troll is a communication such as a usenet post, and a troller is the author of such communication. In media where communication isn't discrete, a troll is the creator of such communication.

A troll is deliberately crafted to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy. A troll is a time thief. To troll is to steal from people. That is what makes trolling heinous.

Trolls can be identified by their disengagement from a conversation or argument. They do not believe what they say, but merely say it for effect.

Trolls are motivated by a desire for attention by people and can't or won't acquire it in a productive manner.

Someone may be insufferable, infuriating, fanatical, and an ignorant idiot to boot without being a troll.

Also note that a troll isn't necessarily insulting, snide, or even impolite. Only the crudest, most obvious, forms of trolling can be identified so easily.

If you find yourself patiently explaining, at length and in great detail, some obscure point to someone who isn't even being polite to you, then you are probably being trolled.

So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.

And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.

And guess what, you are the troll here.

I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.

No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.

Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oops. The stats were; For Ohio the chance was 1/1000, for Florida 2/1000 and for Penn 3/1000 (or something like that). For all to occur together in the same direction 1/250,000,000.

I'll see if I can find a source.

Interesting. I'd definitely be interested to see a source. Thanks.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.

And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.

And guess what, you are the troll here.

I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.

No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.

Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.

Dude..the very first thing you do when you post on this board is slam someone. Almost every single one of your posts calls someone a derogatory name or insults them in a childish fashion. Your whole purpose for existence on this board is to antagonize and stir people up. That is a Prime example of a troll. I'm not the first person to state the same about you. Nothing you have posted thus far has been constructive or insightful. It's all a bunch malignant hooey.

It's very difficult to take you seriously, because you just come across as abrasive and troll-like. With folks like Signym or Signamunki who share different political beliefs in some respects (personally I don't think we are that far apart really), I may not agree with everything they say, and may even get into heated discussion, but ultimately..I feel we do seem to share some constructive information and to some degree hold a decent discussion. I can't say the same about discussions with you. You premise everything with a disturbing comment, just take a look at the titles of your posts.

Some of my posts may become heated. However, I also try to post intelligently ,with sources where applicable.

If you're tired of people calling you a troll, then stop being one. It's simple as that.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 4:28 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.

The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.

Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.

So come on down and protest in front of the White House. Save us from ourselves, Ghoul.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.

And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.

And guess what, you are the troll here.

I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.

No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.

Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.

Dude..the very first thing you do when you post on this board is slam someone. Almost every single one of your posts calls someone a derogatory name or insults them in a childish fashion. Your whole purpose for existence on this board is to antagonize and stir people up. That is a Prime example of a troll. I'm not the first person to state the same about you. Nothing you have posted thus far has been constructive or insightful. It's all a bunch malignant hooey.

It's very difficult to take you seriously, because you just come across as abrasive and troll-like. With folks like Signym or Signamunki who share different political beliefs in some respects (personally I don't think we are that far apart really), I may not agree with everything they say, and may even get into heated discussion, but ultimately..I feel we do seem to share some constructive information and to some degree hold a decent discussion. I can't say the same about discussions with you. You premise everything with a disturbing comment, just take a look at the titles of your posts.

Some of my posts may become heated. However, I also try to post intelligently ,with sources where applicable.

If you're tired of people calling you a troll, then stop being one. It's simple as that.

lol! I always create my own threads! And the last few weeks I've been roundly and consistantly attacked in all the threads I created. And you turn around and call me a troll?

You are typical.

And I just lost all respect for you.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.

The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.

Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.

So come on down and protest in front of the White House. Save us from ourselves, Ghoul.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

People who protest in the USA get gassed then spend a week in jail, a record stipulating you are not to protest ever again, and fined.

Besides, the White House could give a shit if the entire world was against them. Oh, and the entire world is against them... and America.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.

And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.

And guess what, you are the troll here.

I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.

No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.

Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.

Dude..the very first thing you do when you post on this board is slam someone. Almost every single one of your posts calls someone a derogatory name or insults them in a childish fashion. Your whole purpose for existence on this board is to antagonize and stir people up. That is a Prime example of a troll. I'm not the first person to state the same about you. Nothing you have posted thus far has been constructive or insightful. It's all a bunch malignant hooey.

It's very difficult to take you seriously, because you just come across as abrasive and troll-like. With folks like Signym or Signamunki who share different political beliefs in some respects (personally I don't think we are that far apart really), I may not agree with everything they say, and may even get into heated discussion, but ultimately..I feel we do seem to share some constructive information and to some degree hold a decent discussion. I can't say the same about discussions with you. You premise everything with a disturbing comment, just take a look at the titles of your posts.

Some of my posts may become heated. However, I also try to post intelligently ,with sources where applicable.

If you're tired of people calling you a troll, then stop being one. It's simple as that.

lol! I always create my own threads! And the last few weeks I've been roundly and consistantly attacked in all the threads I created. And you turn around and call me a troll?

You are typical.

And I just lost all respect for you.

Every single one of your "Topics" has been nothing but derogatory, hateful, antagonistic, immature malignant hooey Sir Troll. As for whether you respect me or not ROFLMAO. Here's a quarter, call someone who gives a damn

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:35 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

lol! I always create my own threads! And the last few weeks I've been roundly and consistantly attacked in all the threads I created. And you turn around and call me a troll?

Funny. I could swear I started this thread.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Funny. I could swear I started this thread.

Oh so funny!

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Every single one of your "Topics" has been nothing but derogatory, hateful, antagonistic, immature malignant hooey Sir Troll. As for whether you respect me or not ROFLMAO. Here's a quarter, call someone who gives a damn

I tried to be nice to ya Connerflynn but you and the rest have consistantly shown yourselves to be the very worst sort. So bad, in fact, you are all coming together to troll everyone you don't like off this BBS.

That's how people like you are, you don't like someones opinion so you attack the person.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:47 AM

Well, both the US and the EU are taking a firm stance regarding the Ukraine elections. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out. The only roadblock I see arising is Russia and their influence.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 2:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Here is one source for the USA exit poll v tabulation controversy. They had this to say about our election and compared our vote to Ukraine's:

"Exit poll data is considered so robust that when the sitting government counted the votes and announced that its own slate of candidates had won, supporters of the opposition stormed the Parliament, and the president, Eduard A. Shevardnadze, resigned his office under pressure from the United States and Russia.

Contrast that event with what happened in the United States in the recent national election when in three battle ground states, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, with data based on exit polls predicted an outcome in variance with the tallied vote outcomes. Major news organizations, including CNN changed their exit poll data to conform with the tallied outcomes{in scientific parlance it's called fudging the numbers- Signy} most of which came from paperless, electronic voting equipment. In each case the tallied outcomes favored the incumbent, George W. Bush.The odds for such an occurrence is one in 250 million for this to have occurred by chance. [1]Professor Freeman’s analyses of the data are compelling for a number of reasons. First, he was able to sample 2004 exit poll data that was not meant to be released directly to the public and was available through a computer glitch that allowed him to view “uncalibrated data that had not yet been corrected to conform to the announced counted vote tallies. These data remained on the CNN website until approximately 1:30 a.m. election night. At that time CNN substituted data ‘corrected’ to conform to reported tallies.” (1, p. 3). Second, uncorrected exit poll data have been secreted in a black box and AP, Edison Media Research, Mitofsky International and the New York Times have ignored all requests for the raw {exit poll} data. In an open democratic system or any scientific inquiry the data would be open to inspection. The fact that it is not adds to the suspicion that widespread fraud occurred in vote tallies in the battleground states."

So it appears that part of the story is correct- the discrepancy bewteen our exit polls and vote tallies should be alerting us to the fact that something was wrong with our vote and that the major media are colluding to cover it up.
www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/111704DeHart/111704dehart.html

As far as CNN, Fox, CBS, etc. wanting to "catch" the President- The reporters may have a liberal bias. But the media CEOs and Boards have been promised almost unlimited room for consolidation by Bush thru FCC rule changes. Now, who do you think will win...???

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

From another thread, a link to the orginal paper by Professor Freeman, and his bona fides:

Quote:
Anyway, I did find this file about the recent election by Steven Freeman PhD:
http://truthout.org/unexplainedexitpoll.pdf

Before it gets categorized as just another whack-job manifesto, I did look up his bona fides on the internet:
http://www.getcited.org/mbrz/11068805
http://center.grad.upenn.edu/center/nav.cgi?page=freeman

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 4:02 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how Russia reacts. I was surprised that the USA is taking a stand on this, what with GWB having looked into Putin's eyes and seeing a man he could trust. Bush has a lot of reasons to want Russia's cooperation, the least of which is that they should be able to cooperate with (or at least not sabotage) each other's fights with Islamicists. Russia could make Iraq very, very difficult for us. I think Putin was quoted as saying "Iraq could be your Afghanistan." Now if that isn't a statment with multiple meanins, I don't know what is!

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 4:11 PM

TAUSETIPRIME

I have a quick question for those of you claiming voter fraud in the recent presidential election.

Do any of you believe the information you offer as proof is better than that which is possessed by Senator John Kerry?

Do you think he knows this stuff? Knows more? Knows less?

The only person to which this would trully matter isnt saying anything.

Just curious......

They didnt call it the dark ages because it was dark.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:18 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Edwards was willing to go all out for as long as it took. Kerry made a personal or strategic decision to withdraw from the issue. Why he did that is anybody's guess b/c he's not saying.

But what I think is funny is that the FIRST indication that the vote in the Ukraine was rigged was the discrepancy between the exits and the count. That bit disappeared from the news within a half-day.

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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:32 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think Kerry made a strategic calculation when he saw the Congressional results. He probably believes that a Republican Congress would make a Democratic President so ineffective that the Democrats would get only one term in the Whit House. If he fought for the election and lost, he'd look like a whiner. If he fought for the election and won, he wouldn't be able to effect any changes and ultimately he'd be smeared with the Republican's mess. But if he DOESN'T fight for the election, he gets to look "reasonable" and the Republicans get smeared with their own mess. From his standpoint, it's a smart decision.

Still, there's a fine line between playing smart and spinelessness.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 5:38 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Edwards was willing to go all out for as long as it took. Kerry made a personal or strategic decision to withdraw from the issue. Why he did that is anybody's guess b/c he's not saying.

Perhaps if the Kerry supporters had taken to the streets, instead of the internet, he'd have fought it out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TauSetiPrime:
I have a quick question for those of you claiming voter fraud in the recent presidential election.

Do any of you believe the information you offer as proof is better than that which is possessed by Senator John Kerry?

Do you think he knows this stuff? Knows more? Knows less?

The only person to which this would trully matter isnt saying anything.

Just curious......

Excellent question

The Democrates never attacked Bush about lieing, tortureing, or murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in a clearly illegal war... why do you think they would attack them about voter fraud?

Kerry did the same thing Al Gore did - admitted they don't have the power to overthrow a government that controls every aspect of US society. The courts, Congresss, the Senate, and the White House. Remember, we are talking about a government so bent on eating American young like vampires they nearly impeached a US President for staining a girls dress.

Kerry can't call the election a fraud because he hasn't the power to recount the votes without support from the government. A government in the grip of a neofascist ideology.

Besides, it's difficult to recount votes that were destroyed by machines.

The official date of the final vote counting is December 6th.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer- Did you ever hear about this anti-FTAA demonstration in Miami?

"The main day of protest was Thursday, November 20th, {2003} when the AFL-CIO had organized a permitted march. As they arrived in downtown Miami, attendees had to walk for blocks to circumnavigate the phalanxes of police filling the side streets and arrive at the protest. This included several buses full of retirees, who were forced to walk many blocks to the march after police barred their entry to the permitted rally in the amphitheater. Police intimidation continued throughout the day. Police physically assaulted several retirees, including a man thrown to the ground at gunpoint, and a woman forcibly removed from a public toilet. ... However, shortly after the march ended and protesters returned to Biscayne Boulevard, police attacked a group of peaceful protesters without any provocation. They advanced on the crowd, pushing it back with nightsticks, shields, pepper spray, teargas canisters, rubber bullets, concussion grenades, and pepper balls, as bicycle cops blocked off all other paths from exit.... There were at least 150 arrests Thursday. There were 50 more arrests Friday, as police... abducted multiple people walking on the streets, including many reporters and legal observers."
www.yclusa.org/article/articleview/1578/1/294

(It's all on news videotape, just never aired.)

Because the USA internal news is pretty much managed the way news from Iraq is managed, I'm not sure demonstrations are really very effective here. Unless it's covered by the press, it doesn't serve any purpose in either influencing legislators or changing public opinion. And if it's a violent demonstration, if it DOES make it into the news (not likely) it's a black eye for the demonstrators. In other words, it's a little like peeing in a wet suit. My personal opinion is that another way has to be found.

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:26 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- Did you ever hear about this anti-FTAA demonstration in Miami?

So you'd rather have four more years of Bush & Co. than face a little tear gas? That lack of committment doesn't jibe with the passion you seem to show here on the internet.

Ukraine has a population of 48 million, and the opposition were able to rally hundreds of thousands to the capital in a couple of days. The US has 293 million and a much better transportation system. I'd think that a half million people showing up in Washington D.C. and peacefully protesting the election would have been something the media couldn't ignore.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:44 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So you didn't hear about it, did you? I thought not.

I've seen demonstrations of over a million ignored by the press. If facing a little tear gas would make a difference, it might be worth it. But the right wing didn't get into power by demonstrations, did it?

I don't get you, Geezer. What are you trying to say with your all of posts? That everything is fine? That the government is alright?

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 7:08 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
I'm true Ukraine head - Yushchenko

Viktor Yushchenko has called for a campaign of civil disobedience

Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has declared himself president in front of his supporters as crowds rallied outside parliament.
Mr Yushchenko, who says the election was rigged against him, read the oath of office during a stormy session of parliament attended by opposition MPs.

As a mark of protest he put his hand on a Bible and stood at a window to address about 200,000 people outside...

... International observers have described Sunday's poll - a second round run-off - as seriously flawed, and the US and European Union are calling for an urgent review.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4035755.stm

Now that's a lot more dramatic than sending in a herd of lawyers. I guess we Americans just don't have that kind of flair.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

yeah its real funny what even funnier is that our media is reporting the stolen Ukran elections but they won't report on the stolen election right here..

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Thursday, November 25, 2004 7:15 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Ukraine has a population of 48 million, and the opposition were able to rally hundreds of thousands to the capital in a couple of days. The US has 293 million and a much better transportation system. I'd think that a half million people showing up in Washington D.C. and peacefully protesting the election would have been something the media couldn't ignore.

the 1srt stolen election in
2000 had one of the biggest protest in Washingto D.C in American history and guess what..it was completely ignored by the main stream media...most people had no idea that anything was going on...

take the protest in NewYork during the republican convention..I don't know about cable television ..but it was barely made mention of in the main stream media

Our very own elections this time around was Stolen again... 2 times in a row.. and our media will not report on it..NO instead they report on the Ukran!!

At this point taking it to the streets isn't doing any good..what we need is an underground grass roots movement.. the reason why I say underground because I suspect anyone really out there trying to do something is going to be squashed or ineffecticve..I suspect when things get bad enough..something like that will start to happen!!

and wether you know it or not the internet is a very effective tool for those of us whoes voice isn't being heard...right now the internet is our best friend!! we've been able to accomplish quite a bit with the help of the internet more then we would have been without it..

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Friday, November 26, 2004 2:29 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So you didn't hear about it, did you? I thought not.

I don't remember it right off hand, but press about it is not hard to find.

Quote:
Demonstrators, police clash during free trade talks
MIAMI (AP) — Police in riot gear used batons, plastic shields, concussion grenades and stun guns in clashes Thursday with hundreds of demonstrators protesting talks aimed at creating a hemisphere-wide free-trade zone.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-11-20-miami-protests_x.htm

It is difficult to find a good estimate of the crowd, I've seen everything from "hundreds" as in the USAToday article, to "tens of thousands" on the AFL-CIO site. Hardly hundreds of thousands, and not in the capital.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've seen demonstrations of over a million ignored by the press. If facing a little tear gas would make a difference, it might be worth it. But the right wing didn't get into power by demonstrations, did it?

Which demonstration of over a million was ignored? Was it in Washington, D.C.? Also note that the right wing in Ukraine didn't get into power by demonstrations, either. That hasn't stopped the liberals there from hitting the streets.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't get you, Geezer. What are you trying to say with your all of posts? That everything is fine? That the government is alright?

No. I have plenty of problems with the government myself. I just don't buy into the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy thing.

I also question the committment of some of the liberals here who talk a good game, but who can always find an excuse to not take action. You know as well as I do that if a half-million people had showed up in Washington two days after the election to protest, it would have been world-wide news. It didn't happen. All we get is internet whining. In another thread, I tried to get a discussion going on what the liberals could do to win in 2008, and all I got back was whining and hate. Guess you could say I sometimes don't get you, either.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 26, 2004 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
No. I have plenty of problems with the government myself. I just don't buy into the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy thing.

I also question the committment of some of the liberals here who talk a good game, but who can always find an excuse to not take action. You know as well as I do that if a half-million people had showed up in Washington two days after the election to protest, it would have been world-wide news. It didn't happen. All we get is internet whining. In another thread, I tried to get a discussion going on what the liberals could do to win in 2008, and all I got back was whining and hate. Guess you could say I sometimes don't get you, either.

I don't mean to gang up on you Geezer but may I say...

The whole world protested the Iraq Invasion. It was the largest protest in history, it made protest against Vietnam look like a picnic. Protesters all over the world have been showing up at the secretive WTO meetings, Republican Conventions, and lately in Chile. What happens to these people? Well, they are harrassed and arrested by police (no actual charge half the time just 72 hours of jail time to prevent protest), gassed, sprayed, beaten, stalked by plain cloths, kidnapped, and on and on. Tell me, how many people feel safe to protest in the USA?

No on feels safe protesting in the US. This sort of policestate tactics are becoming common around the world to prevent political movement by the people instead of those secretive and hydra like corporate masters.

It reminds me of what MacNamara said in that terrific documentary "Fog of War". He was asked if he and the rest of the White House were influenced by the protestors against Vietnam just outside. MacNamara hemmed and hawed; "um, er, ... no. No we didn't... No".

Make no mistake, we are dealing with the very same attitudes today. It isn't a grand conspiracy but an old conspiracy we have lived with for generations. SSDD.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 5:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, you're getting tripped up in your own assumptions. If the media was as fair and proactive about reporting the truth as you say it is the news of election irregularities would be blazoned across the front pages of every newpaper in 24-point type. I wouldn't HAVE to go to Washington to demonstrate to draw attention to that problem. And yet, you're telling me to go demonstrate and to trust the media to report the demonstration... the very same media that isn't reporting the story in the first place! The same media that has the truth locked up in a box at the NYTIMES (and other palces) and refuses - not nelgects, refuses- to release the raw exit poll data. As the saying goes- WTF???

BTW, I've personally known about several very large Washington demonstration (approx one million) - but I had to listen to BBC World News or "As It Happens" (Canadian Radio) to hear out about it in the media. My very first experience with the media burying domestic stories was the 1-million pro ERA march in Washington in 1976 that generated ONE captioned pic... not even a 2" news article... of two women cooling their feet in a fountain. Now, how's THAT for burying news? Pretty impressive, wouldn't you say?

I know that disinformation by selection is the mainstay of most Adminstrations and news media. It's usually even more effective than actual misinformation. For example-

Has the Iraqi Health Ministry come out with any Fallujhan civilian dead estimates yet? What about the American military? I already stated what I think is a reasonable guess (>600). IRC guesses the same (up to 800) and I'm still waiting for that info. Of course, we'll never get it from official sources because they're too d*mn busy burying the truth OH, and BTW in case it went past you, when two groups collude to perform an illegal act (in this case, hiding the number of civilian dead in defiance of the Geneva Convention) that's a "conspiracy".

So how about this- Heard anything lately about Venzuela? Hmmm, I thought not. What about Uzbekistan? Not that either? Huh. OK, what about Brazil? Wow, you haven't heard about that either??? OK, then how about some place really close to our collective hearts- Quick, Geezer, what did Saudi Arabia do this past week that was so important?

So it's not as if there isn't important news happening out there.

Your trust in the system is... baffling. For a self-professed skeptic with such wonderful intllectual tools... intelligence and self-control and web-surfing skills and real-world experience ... it's inexplicable. W/o trying to say this is the case, you LOOK LIKE a paid propagandist because you are so intelligent and so persistent in defending the plainly indefensible. It generates extremely sharp self-contradictions in your own conclusions. I just can't imagine someone of your intellectual prowess being so... I don't know... fractured. Like I said, it's baffling.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 6:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...SNIP... Your trust in the system is... baffling. For a self-professed skeptic with such wonderful intllectual tools... intelligence and self-control and web-surfing skills and real-world experience ... it's inexplicable. W/o trying to say this is the case, you LOOK LIKE a paid propagandist because you are so intelligent and so persistent in defending the plainly indefensible. It generates extremely sharp self-contradictions in your own conclusions. I just can't imagine someone of your intellectual prowess being so... I don't know... fractured. Like I said, it's baffling.

Now you know how I feel.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 7:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

heh heh heh.

Yeah. Sucks, don't it?

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Friday, November 26, 2004 7:27 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Signym.

So what you're saying is that it's no good doing anything, because the government-media conspiracy is too much in control? That you're ultimately powerless, so complaining on a chat board is the most you can hope to accomplish? If this is what you consider reality, I'm not too upset to be considered unrealistic.

I sometimes wonder if the "conspiracy" hasn't taken the place of the old capricious gods in our supposedly more enlightened age. If things don't work out as one would like, instead of blaming a god, blame the Tri-lateral Commission, or the VR-wC. You're helpless against the power of these god-surrogates, so why even try? Just rail against the indifferent gods and do nothing.

So you and Ghoul go pat yourselves on the back over your enlightenment, which absolves you from having to do anything more than complain. I think I'll go out and change something.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 26, 2004 8:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Umm... how do you know I'm not doing anything? I'm just taking into account the fact that our government has our media well-controlled.

Not even going to bother answering your other points- irrelevant, misdirecting, waste of time.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 8:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So you and Ghoul go pat yourselves on the back over your enlightenment, which absolves you from having to do anything more than complain. I think I'll go out and change something.

Just expressing my opinion.

Sorry.

Oh, and you be sure to let us know what you are doing to "change something".

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Friday, November 26, 2004 8:33 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Umm... how do you know I'm not doing anything?

Just a guess, actually, based on the fact you never have any suggestions about what to do, just gripes about why nothing will work.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not even going to bother answering your other points- irrelevant, misdirecting, waste of time.

I sometimes feel exactly the same way.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 3:37 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Call to annul Ukraine poll result

There have been high-level calls for the disputed Ukrainian presidential election to be re-run.
They came as the country's parliament met in emergency session in the capital Kiev to discuss the crisis.

The speaker of parliament urged that new elections be held - a call echoed by the EU's Dutch presidency...

... Parliamentary speaker Volodymyr Lytvyn told MPs that the most realistic solution would be to invalidate the poll.

"The logical issue to be raised is to declare the election politically invalid because the true will of the people is now impossible to establish," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4047421.stm

Quote:
Donetsk rallies around its man
By Lina Kushch
BBC News, Donetsk

The scene in Donetsk is the mirror image of the scene in Kiev.

Here people are celebrating victory - the victory of Viktor Yanukovych. There is a party atmosphere with music every evening in the central square

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4043601.stm

So could partition of the orange and blue states be the answer?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 4:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Apparently eastern Ukraine is filled with ethnic Russians. To my (Western) eye, they all sound the same and look the same but obviously people expect very different kinds of representation from each candidate.

Geezer, to carry your logic forward: If the Iraq elections are as irregular as the Ukraine elections (or worse), would you start talking about a breaking up Iraq into three pieces? Just curious.

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 4:31 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, just in case you do happen to be some sort of spook in real life, let me assure you that what I do is perfectly legal. And part of that is being here on this board and annoying right-wing apologists.

SO, to carry your logic forward: If the Iraq elections are as irregular as the Ukraine elections (or worse), would you start talking about a breaking up Iraq into three pieces? Just curious.

Actually, I was taking a sly dig at the red and blue states here, but partition of Iraq is an interesting topic.

Considering that the country is really just one of those agglomerations of seperate tribes and ethnic groups that the colonial powers (England in this case) used to like to package as a nation, it might be worthwhile to consider. The Czech Republic and Slovokia seem to be doing pretty well apart.

The Kurdish north has been semi-autonomous for years. Dividing the center and south between Shi'a and Sunni might be more difficult. A cynic might say that such a division would just about guarantee a permanent state of low level war, which could keep them from bothering anyone else.

Actually, this could end up being the outcome of the elections and new constitution. A loose federation of three autonomous states instead of a single republic. Now that would be interesting.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 4:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

But why is the US government so seemingly insistent about creating a unified Iraq? Even assuming that we're just there for the oil, wouldn't it be beneficial to have the Kurdish north (with it's oil) competing with the Shia south (with it's oil) for contracts?

Reasons for keeping Iraq unified:

All of the Mideast and Central Asian nations are western creations. Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran etc. are each created from ethnic groups that have been reverse-gerrymandered. The Kurdish areas, for example, were specifically divided up among several nations. If Iraqis successfully divide, autonomy-fever could spread and destablize all of the leaders that we currently depend on.

It's easier for the USA to install and control one leader rather than three. (Although "divide and conquer" has certainly been a successful approach in the past.)

A partitioned Iraq would make contract enforcement difficult.

So Geezer- do you have any insight why the US govt insists on a unified Iraq?

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 5:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW Geezer, it occurred to me... not many threads ago, you were saying that the problem with the left was that it wasn't nice enough to ppl like you. Now you think it should brave tear gas and take to the streets. How do those two suggestions fit together?

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 5:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And... FINALLY... I have to practice some time managment. Geezer, it's been fun, but I actually have a responsible job and a chronically sick/ disabled family to take care of.

Hey-everyone else: Have fun. If you find any news that's missing from the headlines, I hope you post it. I'll be reading but trying very very very hard not to repond!

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:43 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW Geezer, it occurred to me... not many threads ago, you were saying that the problem with the left was that it wasn't nice enough to ppl like you. Now you think it should brave tear gas and take to the streets. How do those two suggestions fit together?

I'll get back to the partition of Iraq later, after some research.

I see no contradiction in being positive towards the middle-of-the-roaders and peacefully demonstrating for what you believe in. Once again, the Ukranians are providing a positive example. Their demonstration is peaceful, almost festive at times, but it gets the point across.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:54 AM

UNICORN

A while back in this thread, there was a request made for links to real info. Check this out.

(Sorry if I've missed this link posted elsewhere on the boards...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

There is no such thing as a weed.

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 5:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, I was trying so hard not to reply that I missed making this as a prediction and will have to add this after the fact.

First of all, I doubt very much that either side in the Ukraine is tolerant of middle- of- the- roaders. This is a real power struggle going on, not a love-in. Once a nation is that strongly polarized, middle of the roaders stay very quiet because they are looked on as traitors by either side.

The other point that I was going to predict but now will report is that a "peaceful, almost festive" resolution is in doubt.

"Talks Going Badly as Ukraine Seethes with Rallies
Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich, told a rally of his supporters in the east of the country that the rowdy but so far peaceful protests had brought Ukraine to the edge of disaster. 'As prime minister, I say that today we are on the brink of catastrophe. There is one step to the edge," he told a packed hall in Severodonetsk. Do not take any radical steps. I repeat, none ... When the first drop of blood is spilled, we will not be able to stop it.'"
www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=WJISG4G1ABNPOCRBAE0CFEY?t
ype=topNews&storyID=6934773

Both Russia AND "the West" have powerful interest on the outcome of the election. Viktor Yushchenko, the outsider, is a pro-Western, pro-capitalist candidate with ties to the Heritage Foundation who supports opening the Ukraine to foreign (ie Western) investment.
http://66.216.126.164/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200410270757.asp
while Viktor Yanukovich is pro-Russian, pro-Putin. According various interviews with Boris Tarassuk (President of the Ukraine Parliament's Foreign Relations Commission and Yuschcenko's ally) Russia has already sent in special forces:
" 'I confirm the presence of Russian special units in Kiev, I can tell you where they are staying. They arrived in Kiev by plane and put on Ukrainian uniforms. They are armed with submachine guns,' " told bTV private television.
www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11508523%255E1702,0
0.html I'm not sure opposing outside forces will let the Ukraine have a "velvet revolution".

This will be my last reply for some time. I trust that by now you understand that there is not only the the news behind the news, there is also the news behind the non-news.

"The only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe and dead armadillos"

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 7:36 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Once a nation is that strongly polarized, middle of the roaders stay very quiet because they are looked on as traitors by either side...

..."The only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe and dead armadillos"

Traitorous roadkill, eh? Well, it's nice to know where I fit into your world view. Would you get points in Liberal Paradise for killing me, like Sunni of some sects do if they kill a non-believer? Should I wear a little purple "Star of Non-alignment" on my sleeve, to show I'm neither Red nor Blue?

I'm so happy I don't live in your world that I can't even describe it. Have fun fighting the Vast Right-wing International Corporate Tri-lateral Illuminati Media Conspiracy. I've gotta go shopping for some gifts for the Central Union Mission kids Christmas bags.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:19 AM